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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, trust me. I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lived.

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Speaker 3: To you, I've never a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two groupies who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm lo LeBlanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. And today our

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Speaker 2: guest is Jay van Babel. He's Associate Professor of psychology

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Speaker 2: and Neuroscience at NYU, where he's also the director of

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Speaker 2: the Social Identity and Morality Lab, and he's the co

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Speaker 2: author of an excellent book called the Power of Us.

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Speaker 2: He's going to talk to us about social identity and

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Speaker 2: how we have many of them that can morph and

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Speaker 2: change depending on our circumstances. How the group we identify

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Speaker 2: with can affect not just our decisions, but also our

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Speaker 2: perception and how groups will inevitably form leaders. So it's

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Speaker 2: important to implement hierarchy in a healthy way and not

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Speaker 2: just leave it to the charismatic people.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, we'll also discuss how emotionally charged situations create shared

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Speaker 1: identity and how cults systematically replace individual identities with the

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Speaker 1: group identity, which then makes it even harder to penetrate

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Speaker 1: their belief system. Plus ways to intervene when someone has

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Speaker 1: fallen prey to group think, whether groups can be good,

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Speaker 1: and lots more.

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Speaker 2: Lots more. I love this conversation.

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Speaker 1: That's great.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, talking for hours before we get in with Jay.

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Speaker 2: Tell me, please, what your cultiest thing this week is?

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Speaker 1: Mind's sad?

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Speaker 5: But what I know?

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Speaker 1: I guess this happened in May, but I'm just reading

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Speaker 1: about it now. A scientologist, this beautiful forty year old

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Speaker 1: woman in Florida recently shot herself and then let herself

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Speaker 1: on fire because she wanted to drop the body and

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Speaker 1: go to a new one because disease. So lots of

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Speaker 1: stuff coming out of the church saying we never say

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Speaker 1: drop the body or anything like that. But then they're

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Speaker 1: showing her text messages with somebody talking about how she

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Speaker 1: wants to do the quote unquote assist of dropping the body.

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Speaker 2: And is the person in those texts like affirming that

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Speaker 2: that's thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she goes, oops, I made a mistake. I asked

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Speaker 1: for the assist and the girl goes oopsy. She didn't say,

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Speaker 1: what's those cyst you know, she just said, oh, you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't do that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know they mean.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that the girl she was talking

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Speaker 1: to is kind of like covering her ass and being like, well, oops,

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Speaker 1: don't don't talk about that, like it exists, but we

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Speaker 1: don't do it. But the fact that it exists means somebody.

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Speaker 2: Likes do it. That is a part of their belief system. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but they just don't like to advertise. You know what.

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Speaker 1: It's like Mormonism and polygamy. It's like, we don't do

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Speaker 1: that anymore, the mainstreams.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, well they don't do it anymore, but

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Speaker 2: they it is. It is part of the history for sure, right, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 2: or like blood atonement, how blood atonement was a part

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Speaker 2: of the Mormon history, but they pretend that it exactly

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Speaker 2: or at least the concept of it.

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Speaker 1: That's super sad, I know, Sorry, guys, I just I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if this is going to maybe cause a stir

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Speaker 1: within the community.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't hear about that from anyone, but

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Speaker 2: you so I wonder.

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Speaker 1: So not causing a stir exactly.

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Speaker 2: Also, but I mean I also haven't been looking at

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Speaker 2: the news that much, so maybe I just missed it.

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Speaker 2: But I mean I would hope that that would bring

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Speaker 2: more attention to me too, potentially harmful. Yeah about you, Well,

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Speaker 2: you know we got to talk about Andrew Tate. God

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Speaker 2: give it to me, Okay. Well, I mean, I'm sure

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Speaker 2: everybody pretty knows pretty much knows who this guy is

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Speaker 2: at this point, but the if you look up toxic

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Speaker 2: mail and the dictionary, it will be him who, for

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Speaker 2: some reason, people love on the internet has been arrested

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Speaker 2: at long last on charges of human trafficking, rape, and

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Speaker 2: form an organized crime group. It is no secret that

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Speaker 2: this man is into rape. He has talked about it

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Speaker 2: in a way that would indicate that a number of times.

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Speaker 2: There's been video of him beating a woman. He talks

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Speaker 2: about how women belong in the home. People have accused

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Speaker 2: him of these things.

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Speaker 5: But it's just so crazy because he's.

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Speaker 2: Been running Hustler University, Which are you a cartoon university?

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Speaker 2: A cartoon villain? This man is where busloads of American

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Speaker 2: men and British men have just been trucking in to

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Speaker 2: go to Hustler's University, where they've literally just been like

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Speaker 2: forcing women to do porn and or sex x that

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Speaker 2: they didn't want to do. Like I, how is it real?

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Speaker 2: How is it real? I'm so glad he's arrested, and

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Speaker 2: the way he's arrested is the funniest thing ever, because

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Speaker 2: for anyone who doesn't know you saw his tweet to

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Speaker 2: Greta Thunberg. Of course, Hello Greta Thunberg on Twitter, I

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Speaker 2: have thirty three cars. Please provide your email address so

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Speaker 2: I can send a complete list of my car collection

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Speaker 2: and the respect of enormous emissions, she says back, Yes,

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Speaker 2: please do enlighten me. Email me at small Dick Energy

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Speaker 2: at get alife dot com. He then posts a video

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Speaker 2: of himself wearing a Versachi robe, smoking his cigar, and

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Speaker 2: describing her as a bitter slave of the matrix who's

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Speaker 2: trying to convince you to beg your government to tax

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Speaker 2: you into poverty to stop the sun from being hot.

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Speaker 2: He then gestures off camera, asks someone to bring him

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Speaker 2: pizza and the pizza place. The location of the pizza

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Speaker 2: place is the thing that gets him arrested because he's

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Speaker 2: want cartoon so long, literal cartoon. It's so funny, it's

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Speaker 2: so funny. What he's done is not fucking funny, but

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Speaker 2: the fact that that is how he went down is

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Speaker 2: so funny. Like there's just you can't eat the small

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Speaker 2: dick energy is so strong. The need to look like

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Speaker 2: a big man is so big that he can't even

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Speaker 2: stop himself from releasing a video talking about how great

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Speaker 2: and manly he is that gets him fucking arrested.

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Speaker 1: Well, something else you were saying early that is very

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Speaker 1: interesting is that the Taliban is angry that he's arrested.

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Speaker 2: Wants him to be free.

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Speaker 1: They're like, I mean, and I was just saying, I

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Speaker 1: think that's how you know you're on the wrong track,

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Speaker 1: is if the Taliban is like, you're cool, this is good?

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Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's not great.

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Speaker 1: In this episode, I call myself cool. I'd like to

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Speaker 1: just say I don't think that I am.

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Speaker 2: So thank you for that clarification when you say it,

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Speaker 2: when you said, wow, she's just gonna commit.

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Speaker 1: She's I was going to say cold, and I said cool,

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Speaker 1: I did.

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Speaker 2: You guys will know what we're talking about in a

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Speaker 2: few minutes. That is amazing. Yeah, yeah, okay, like damn

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Speaker 2: the confidence on Meggant.

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Speaker 1: I'm cool, you'll see.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, let's talk to Jay and you can

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Speaker 2: all hear exactly what we're talking about. Welcome Jay van

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Speaker 2: Babel to trust me.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for being with us. So you are

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Speaker 2: so cool. You've done so much research on group identity,

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Speaker 2: social identity. Okay. So you're the Associate professor of Psychology

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Speaker 2: and Neural Science at NYU, the director of this Social

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Speaker 2: Identity and Morality Lab, which is where also any that

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Speaker 2: makes sense, and co author of the Power of Us,

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Speaker 2: which I started reading and it is very very good.

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Speaker 5: Can you tell us, first of all, what led.

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Speaker 2: You to this field and what made you interested in

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Speaker 2: these topics.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I got fascinated with group psychology ever

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Speaker 4: since I've been young. I cite a lot of sports,

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Speaker 4: and so I love the dynamics of sports teams and

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Speaker 4: when people get really identified and they can work together

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Speaker 4: and they can either be like curly cohesive or fall apart.

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Speaker 4: And then I started also getting interested in things like discrimination,

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Speaker 4: why do some groups discriminate against others?

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Speaker 3: And what is the psychology you of that?

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Speaker 4: And then more recently I've been interested in you know,

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Speaker 4: those those factors of identity and groupishness in all kinds

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Speaker 4: of other spaces. So how that plays out on social media,

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Speaker 4: how that plays out in politics, how that plays out

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Speaker 4: in cults. And so I'm really interested in kind of

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Speaker 4: these group dynamics and all these different parts of our lives.

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Speaker 2: Me too.

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Speaker 1: Groups are so stressful, just the word group.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So first of all, what is social identity?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so identity. Most people understand what identity is, right,

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Speaker 4: It's who I am, it's her sense of self. Social

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Speaker 4: identity means part of our sense of self comes from

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Speaker 4: the groups that we belong to. And so here's a

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Speaker 4: little exercise you can put yourself. So I'll put you

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Speaker 4: both through it. Right now, answer the question I am

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Speaker 4: blank five times? So so each shake, turn and say

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Speaker 4: what are the first kind of five parts of our

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Speaker 4: identity that come to mind?

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Speaker 2: Oh god, I am creative?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, it is so early for me to

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Speaker 1: say good things about myself. Okay, I am funny.

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Speaker 2: I am anxious, I am cool. I am a filmmaker,

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Speaker 2: I am an artist, I am curious.

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Speaker 1: I am not a morning person.

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Speaker 2: I am a writer.

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Speaker 1: I am hungry.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 4: So some of those things that you mentioned are like states,

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Speaker 4: like I'm hungry right now. Some of them are traits

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Speaker 4: like I am curious, and those are often stable traits.

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Speaker 4: But a couple of things you mentioned are actually social identities.

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Speaker 4: So when you mentioned I'm a filmmaker, it means that

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Speaker 4: you identify with other people who are making films. You

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Speaker 4: might talk to them, you might go to their websites,

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Speaker 4: you might be inspired by what they've done. You might

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Speaker 4: do like group meet ups or drinks or conferences or writer.

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Speaker 4: So I became an author once I published my book,

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Speaker 4: which I was a new identity, and then all of

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Speaker 4: a sudden you kind of get into this whole new

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Speaker 4: world of other people who written books, other authors, and

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Speaker 4: they treat you different. And so that's what social identities are.

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Speaker 4: It's some part of ourself that is defined in part

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Speaker 4: by the groups we belong to. And when you identify

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Speaker 4: with a group, it comes with a certain set of norms.

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Speaker 4: So for me, let's say one of my identities is

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Speaker 4: I'm a scientist, it means that like I have to

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Speaker 4: care a lot about the truth. I have to like

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Speaker 4: go through care about things like peer review, I have

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Speaker 4: to do like experiments, and I have to have other

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Speaker 4: scientists who.

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Speaker 3: Judge and criticize me all the time. That's part of it.

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Speaker 4: When I go home, I'm a dad, I have young kids,

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Speaker 4: and like I completely forget about my job, and they're

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Speaker 4: like want me to help them with their homework or

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Speaker 4: make dinner or play board game with them, And so

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Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I have a different set of

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Speaker 4: norms and expectations of what it is to be a

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Speaker 4: dad that come to mind. And so in a given day,

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Speaker 4: you have all these different identities inside you, and you

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Speaker 4: kind of move from one situation to the other and

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Speaker 4: different identities spring to mind. So if you're like a filmmaker,

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Speaker 4: it's maybe when you're like thinking and working on your

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Speaker 4: film that you're thinking through that lens. What will other

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Speaker 4: filmmakers think? What would a great filmmaker do here? What

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Speaker 4: was I trained, you know, in filmmaking school to do?

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Speaker 4: Whereas like you know, you go to another part of

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Speaker 4: your life. I also see you're wearing like a Calves sweatshirt.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if you're like an alumni.

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Speaker 1: No, I actually thought that when I wore this today,

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Speaker 1: I was like, what am I doing? This is such

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Speaker 1: a weird day to do this.

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Speaker 2: But is it just awashirt?

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Speaker 4: So if I saw like a sweatshirt like that on campus,

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Speaker 4: I think, oh, that's a student who's visiting from cal

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Speaker 4: maybe did their degree at Callen's now a professor or

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Speaker 4: a graduate student at n YU. Because that's another way

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Speaker 4: we signal our identities, what university when we went to

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Speaker 4: or college, or what sports team we cheer for. A

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Speaker 4: lot of people like are identified with sports teams at colleges,

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Speaker 4: and so once you kind of put on once you

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Speaker 4: identified the group, and that that identity is triggered. It's

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Speaker 4: like putting on a pair of sunglasses where everything looks

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Speaker 4: a little different and you're kind of seeing the world

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Speaker 4: through a different lens.

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Speaker 2: So we can have multiple identities and it just really

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Speaker 2: depends on where we are and who we're with.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, and that's one of the things like when

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Speaker 4: you when you if you ever go to a date,

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Speaker 4: part of that's what you're doing when you're like asking

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Speaker 4: these questions and trying to get to know the person,

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Speaker 4: trying to figure out like do we share identities, do

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Speaker 4: we share groups that we care about? Or obviously you

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Speaker 4: just can now online do it on like your dating profile,

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Speaker 4: and people put the strangest identities on there.

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Speaker 3: They might put like filmmaker or like horror film.

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Speaker 4: Enthusiast, but they also put things like like their their

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Speaker 4: personality profile and the Meyers Briggs test, yeah, or what

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Speaker 4: what you.

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Speaker 3: Know they did that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: What is your enniogram the like one through or twelve?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 3: So so the turns out those are pretty much just pseudoscience.

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Speaker 4: Yeah a psychologist, and I would like I I company

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Speaker 4: to spend billions of dollars giving these people.

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Speaker 3: But they're basically basically junk k sites. But the reason

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Speaker 3: people love them is because.

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Speaker 4: It puts you in a box and it gives you

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Speaker 4: an identity, and then it's like, oh, you know, you

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Speaker 4: know Amelia Earhart and Einstein were also whatever you know,

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Speaker 4: and enter whatever that I am.

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Speaker 3: And so that's the type of thing. People actually want

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Speaker 3: to be put in a box.

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Speaker 4: They'll say they want to be individuals, but they also

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Speaker 4: want to have these group identities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean random example, But like I said,

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Speaker 2: I'm anxious to me, that actually like sort of because

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Speaker 2: I have, well, I have been diagnosed with OCD and

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Speaker 2: struggle with anxiety. But I actually don't think it's it's

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Speaker 2: like not that useful as a label other than it

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Speaker 2: helps me go online and find other people who have

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Speaker 2: OCD and get to talk about this thing that I

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Speaker 2: have and now I have like a framework for it

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Speaker 2: to understand what I'm experiencing as opposed to just like

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Speaker 2: I'm someone who gets anxious a lot.

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Speaker 4: Is that Yeah, I would say that's like one of

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Speaker 4: the cool things that the Internet gave us, right, is

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Speaker 4: that you can kind of find your tribe no matter

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Speaker 4: where you are, what you're into, you can find people

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Speaker 4: like you, and you can share tips, you can provide

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Speaker 4: social support, you can get together. So this is like

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Speaker 4: triggers like gatherings and social events and so this is

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Speaker 4: like the cool thing is that. And people now on

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Speaker 4: their social media often will send out little bad signals.

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Speaker 4: So if you look at like their profile, they whole

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Speaker 4: bunch of their social identities like in their profile on

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Speaker 4: Twitter or Facebook or Instagram of course, and what they're

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Speaker 4: doing is signaling to look at me. If you check

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Speaker 4: my profile. If you're like me, follow me, and we're

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Speaker 4: a part of the drive.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: What's happening in groups becoming more small and more specific

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Speaker 1: and us find new people who like exactly the same

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Speaker 1: niche thing as us.

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Speaker 2: Is that a good thing?

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's good.

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Speaker 4: But here's a two big things that groups do for us,

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Speaker 4: and the groups that fulfill both of these little needs

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Speaker 4: are super attractive to people, super sticky. So one is

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Speaker 4: it gives us a sense of belonging. So humans have

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Speaker 4: this deep rooted sense of belonging, you know. And I'll

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Speaker 4: just put it in an evolutionary sense. We evolved in

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Speaker 4: small groups in the savannah, and humans aren't fast or

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Speaker 4: strong or poisonous. We can't fly away, and so we

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Speaker 4: would have got picked off pretty quickly if we were

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Speaker 4: kicked out of our group. That's why people are terrified

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Speaker 4: of getting like socially shamed or ostracized. Because our ancestors

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Speaker 4: who got shamed died and they didn't pass on their genes.

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Speaker 4: So we're the we're the ancestors of like one hundred

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Speaker 4: generations of humans who fit in and found a sense

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Speaker 4: of belonging. But we don't want to fit in too much.

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Speaker 4: We want to fit into groups that make us feel

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Speaker 4: distinct and special.

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Speaker 3: And so this is one of the reasons.

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Speaker 4: Why like people love like little specialty groups, because you

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Speaker 4: get to feel like you're distinct from society and yet

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Speaker 4: a sense of belonging. And this is like I would say,

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Speaker 4: this is like the ethos of like punks or goths.

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Speaker 4: And I'll see them like on the subway and you

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Speaker 4: can ask them, like, why do you all dress alike?

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Speaker 3: And they'll say, what are you talking about. We're nonconformists.

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Speaker 4: But from the outside they all look like they hit

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Speaker 4: their conformists, right, But them they're conforming to an an

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Speaker 4: anti kind of counterculture, right, So they see themselves as

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Speaker 4: actually super distinctive from society and they have this tight

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Speaker 4: sense of belonging and cohesion, and so those are really

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Speaker 4: powerful identities for people. It's why clubs, like dance clubs

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Speaker 4: and nightclubs have like a big velvet rope and you

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Speaker 4: have to wait along line to get in. There's a

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Speaker 4: bouncer and they're like picking the people who are like

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Speaker 4: good good to have in the club. And I've been

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Speaker 4: to clubs where like you eight in nine half an

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Speaker 4: hour you get in, there's like all people inside, and

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Speaker 4: it's all to creat this illusion that it's like this exclusive,

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Speaker 4: distinctive club.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, can you guys some examples of how we've

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Speaker 2: seen it play out in studies that we prefer our

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Speaker 2: group to other groups.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so the most I think this is one of

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Speaker 4: the most important studies in fifty years in social psychology.

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Speaker 4: They basically flipped a coin and put a bunch of

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Speaker 4: teenagers in two groups.

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Speaker 3: And you didn't even get to meet anybody in your group.

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Speaker 4: You didn't get to meet anybody in the other group,

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Speaker 4: but you just simply knew that you shared an identity

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Speaker 4: with them.

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Speaker 3: And then you.

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Speaker 4: Give people some money, and they got to figure out

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Speaker 4: how much money they wanted to give to an in

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Speaker 4: group member and an outgroup member. And even though they

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Speaker 4: didn't know people in other group, there was no stereotypes

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Speaker 4: about the group, there's no history of conflict. People started

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Speaker 4: giving more money to their in group than the outgroup

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Speaker 4: like instantly. And I've run this variance of this study

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Speaker 4: in multiple countries. I run this in my classroom. I'll

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Speaker 4: just the split the class into two sides, and by

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Speaker 4: the end of the class they say they identify more

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Speaker 4: with their group, and they like their group more even

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Speaker 4: if they've never even interacted with them, even if they're

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Speaker 4: total strangers.

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Speaker 3: And so that's the power of groups is just simply

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Speaker 3: flip a coin.

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Speaker 4: Putting us on a group is like a switch going

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Speaker 4: off in our brain that signals that's my team, that's

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Speaker 4: my tribe.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. I went to a escape room on the

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Speaker 1: end and one of my friends and it did like

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Speaker 1: didn't care, just didn't care. There was two different teams.

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Speaker 1: They split us in two, and so I'd be like

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Speaker 1: unlocking the safe and I'd have the numbers in my

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Speaker 1: head and You'd be like seventy two man forty, like

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Speaker 1: just saying other numbers.

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Speaker 2: And I was like pissot.

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Speaker 1: I got so angry, and I was like the other

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Speaker 1: group is beating us and like screaming mad, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I was just like, how is he He's like enlightened,

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Speaker 1: he turned off the switch in his brain that gives

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Speaker 1: a shit about winning and like getting this group to win.

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Speaker 2: It was so weird.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was also probably on mushrooms, but you know,

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Speaker 1: it was strange. It happened so quickly. They just divided

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Speaker 1: us and now I'm like, my whole, my whole sense

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Speaker 1: of self depends on how we do. We did horribly, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. The thing that I find scary is not

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Speaker 2: that we prefer our group, but that we will try

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Speaker 2: to disadvantage the other group in favor of.

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Speaker 1: Our Oh, I would have sabotaged the other group hard.

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Speaker 2: And it's based on nothing, as you're saying, Like it

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Speaker 2: could be totally arbitrary if it's we just happen to

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Speaker 2: both like that sign over there, Like suddenly we're gonna

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Speaker 2: make sure that the group who likes the other sign

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Speaker 2: over there is getting less money than us, Like why why? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: here's the thing.

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Speaker 4: It makes us feel a sense of status and distinctiveness. Right,

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Speaker 4: if we're better than other group, that's what makes us special.

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Speaker 4: And so this is why people are obsessed with being

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Speaker 4: part of like successful groups or high status groups.

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Speaker 3: Is it makes us feel good. This is why. So

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Speaker 3: I think of it. In sports, you.

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Speaker 4: Have all these people who are like watching at home

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Speaker 4: in their living room by themselves, and they're cheering, or

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Speaker 4: you can see grown men crying in their living room because.

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Speaker 3: They're team lost. They had nothing to do with it,

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Speaker 3: they weren't on the field.

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Speaker 4: They didn't go to practices, they've done nothing to contribute

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Speaker 4: to the team's success or failure, and yet they feel

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Speaker 4: it as if it's like as something deeply personal and.

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Speaker 3: Important to them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, cana test sports fan boyfriend, cana test. Something else

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Speaker 2: that you've talked about that I think is really really

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Speaker 2: interesting is this idea that we don't just like make

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Speaker 2: different decisions based on our group, we also perceive things

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Speaker 2: differently based on our group. We literally taken the same

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Speaker 2: exact information completely differently depending on what cooper And can

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Speaker 2: you just give us an example of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's lots of great examples of this.

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Speaker 4: One of the famous ones that we talked about, well,

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Speaker 4: I'll use example of sports again is if you have

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Speaker 4: sports fans. There's a famous college football game and the

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Speaker 4: sports the fans from the two different teams saw the

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Speaker 4: game completely differently, had different memories of which teams committed

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Speaker 4: more fouls. And then they ran a study where they showed,

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Speaker 4: you know, students from each university that these teams were from.

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Speaker 4: It was actually from Dartmouth and Princeton, and the professors

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Speaker 4: just showed them, you know, a video reel of the

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Speaker 4: game and they still had different perceptions of what happened,

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00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,679
Speaker 4: and so it's it's something that it's very hard to hear.

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Speaker 4: And this is why everybody hates refs and umps. It's why,

439
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 4: like on social media platforms, people hate the moderators. They

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00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,399
Speaker 4: always think that their group is being unfairly moderated. And

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Speaker 4: it's because it's the big reason in the big explanations,

442
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,639
Speaker 4: because they're biased. It's also why people think the media

443
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,199
Speaker 4: is biased. I was I was scrolling that someone posted this.

444
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 4: I started scrolling through it. It's like the New York Times,

445
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,119
Speaker 4: which I read. You know, you can go online on

446
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 4: Twitter and there will be a ton of people calling

447
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 4: the New York Times fascist and a bunch of now

448
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 4: the whole others.

449
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 3: That calling them like communist.

450
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 4: And so is it is it far right or is

451
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,399
Speaker 4: it far left or is it really more kind of

452
00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 4: like center center left, and people from extreme beliefs really

453
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,400
Speaker 4: see it through the lens as an enemy because it's

454
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 4: not producing exactly what they want or occasionally produces something

455
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 4: that they don't like. And so that's kind of like

456
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 4: our identities and how it affects how we interpret.

457
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 3: Kind of all kinds of things, relationships.

458
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 4: By the way, One of the biggest predictors of who

459
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,200
Speaker 4: you like in a relationship is do they share your politics?

460
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 4: And so even things like attractiveness attractiveness to somebody are

461
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 4: heavily determined by our identities.

462
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,959
Speaker 2: Interesting, So are we less likely to say our real

463
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 2: opinion if we are in a group that we identify with.

464
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it really depends. This is what It really

465
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 4: depends on the norms of the group. So I would

466
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 4: say there's two big elements to how group identity works.

467
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 4: One is do you care about the group an you

468
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 4: identify with them? And then the second is what are

469
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,719
Speaker 4: the norms of the group. And so some groups have

470
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 4: wide open, wide ranging debates, and when they do this,

471
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 4: those groups actually outperform pretty much every other group. And

472
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 4: if you look in companies, one of my favorite study

473
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,640
Speaker 4: was in Google teams. In the company that had kind

474
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 4: of what's called psychological safety, people felt comfortable challenging one

475
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 4: another kind of with crazy ideas, saying something that went

476
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 4: against the status quo. Those teams were more successful, and

477
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 4: the ones that didn't allow that were actually the least successful.

478
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 4: So those are the ones that have groupthink in them,

479
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 4: where everybody's walking on eggshells. Or they feel uncomfortable speaking

480
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 4: their mind, and so you can get that really bad.

481
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 4: And throughout history there's lots of examples of where organizations

482
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 4: and leaders create a group think. You see it on

483
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 4: all kinds of groups, and so that's something that is

484
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 4: kind of within the power of the group to create.

485
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 4: They can create a situation that leads to groupthink, or

486
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 4: they can create a situation that actually makes the group smarter.

487
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 4: And I run studies in my lab where groups are

488
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 4: smarter than a group of individuals as long as they

489
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 4: feel like they're on the same page and they're supporting

490
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 4: one another. But groups can also become way dumber than

491
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 4: individuals if they have bad.

492
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 3: Culture, bad norms. Right, But that depends on where you

493
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 3: start to get into cults. By the way, the ex

494
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 3: version of that is culled psychology.

495
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: Right.

496
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, you need a leader, though,

497
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: correct for this to work.

498
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 4: Right.

499
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: So leadership is actually oddly anti group think. Good leadership good.

500
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you've touched on something that most people get wrong.

501
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 4: Most people think that leadership strong leaders lead to groupthink.

502
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 4: In reality, strong leaders are critical for stopping groupthink because

503
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 4: they don't get threatened when they're challenged, they invite other

504
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 4: people to take turns talking. So I'll just give you

505
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 4: an example of how I run my own research lab.

506
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 4: We have lab meetings once a week. I actually don't

507
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 4: share my opinion first when we have lab meetings to

508
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 4: discuss papers and projects. And the reason for that is

509
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 4: because I'm in a position of power. If I have

510
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 4: a strong opinion, people will just agree with me or

511
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 4: bite their tongue, and so I have to be aware

512
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 4: of that and kind of like be a little bit

513
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 4: quiet until I hear what everybody thinks and that I

514
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 4: can weigh in, and that way I kind of surface

515
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 4: all the interesting ideas that people have. But you can

516
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 4: be a strong leader and feel like you have to

517
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 4: dominate the conversation allays and we will just kind of

518
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 4: go along, or you get really anybody's been on a

519
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 4: team where they have a leader who gets really snappy

520
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 4: when they're challenged or insecure, or lashes out or needs

521
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 4: to take all the credit, And that's kind of the

522
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 4: recipe that leads to groupthink.

523
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: And if there's a group that ostensibly doesn't have a leader,

524
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: does a leader just naturally emerge anyway?

525
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, leaders usually emerge. Will I will say this is

526
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 3: this very trendy thing to have.

527
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 4: Like slat groups with no leaders, and the research is

528
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 4: coming out more and more that that's not very effective.

529
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 4: It's not effective in sports teams, it's not effective in

530
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 4: most organizations. People like to know who to look to,

531
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 4: who to trust, who sets the norms and is going

532
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 4: to be a role model. What you often have is

533
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 4: if there's no leader, you can say, well, we're not

534
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 4: going to have a leader. People will organically emerge to

535
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 4: be leader. And the unfortunate thing is sometimes they're good

536
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 4: and sometimes they're bad. So it's better to be smart

537
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 4: about thinking about who is good to promote into a

538
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 4: position of leadership that actually cares about the group, that

539
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 4: kind of embodies its values, that you know that has

540
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 4: the skills to be an effective leader, and think about

541
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 4: how you bring that person up and train them and

542
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 4: support them, rather than just say, oh, we're not going

543
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 4: to ignore leaders. Well, leaders are going to form in

544
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 4: that situation, in that vacuum, and they might not be

545
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 4: the person.

546
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 2: You want, right Yeah, I mean I I this is

547
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: one of the mistakes that I made in a group

548
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: situation where I.

549
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 5: Was like, oh, well we'll all it's it's.

550
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 2: Democracy, we'll all you know. And inevitably that led to

551
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 2: conflict because hierarchies form and then people resent the hierarchies.

552
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,479
Speaker 2: And it's almost like you do need to implement one,

553
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: implement a hierarchy from the beginning, but just do it

554
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 2: mindfully so.

555
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: That yeah, find the person with the most charisma and

556
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: say no, not you.

557
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 4: They'll the traits that lead to bad leaders.

558
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 3: Okay, charisma can be good, but not when it comes

559
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 3: with these things. So here's the three. It's called the

560
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 3: dark triad. I love this name.

561
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 4: It's people who score high on maccuum Valianism, so super manipulative,

562
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 4: people who score high on narcissism, so they think they're

563
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 4: better than everybody else. And the worst part of it

564
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 4: is people who score high on psychopathy, so people who

565
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 4: have no empathy. And if you have those three traits,

566
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 4: you have the kind of ingredients for a terrible leader.

567
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you two bad things that happen. One is,

568
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 4: there's this great book called Snakes and Suits and they

569
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 4: it's an analysis of these type of people, especially psychopaths,

570
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 4: and in companies. As you go up in a company,

571
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 4: there tends to be more more psychopaths at the top,

572
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 4: and they rise because they take credit for everybody else's work.

573
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 4: They have sharp malmos, so they hoard resources and so

574
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:38,959
Speaker 4: and then they're the worst people to work on it, right,

575
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 4: so be absolute brutal to their staff. But they rise

576
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 4: up to positions of power because we have a systems

577
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 4: that reward them. Another place, the other place I've seen

578
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 4: this a study I just saw a couple weeks ago,

579
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 4: is with senators.

580
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 3: So let's go to us. Senators the ones who.

581
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 4: People who are most likely to get re elected at

582
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 4: like they're on the dark triad. They're the people who

583
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 4: are more likely to have traits that look like narcissism, maciuvelianism,

584
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 4: and psychopathy.

585
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 3: Here's the problem. They're more likely to get re elected,

586
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 3: but they're less likely to actually past bills. They're still

587
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 3: focused on themselves.

588
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 4: They can't cooperate and get stuff done, and so we

589
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 4: have Also what's happening in organizations where we're having psychopaths

590
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 4: rise to the top, is happening in politics that we're

591
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 4: promoting and re electing leaders who have these terrible sets

592
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 4: of traits and not electing the ones who actually get

593
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 4: stuff done for the betterment of society.

594
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: Right, someone who's narcissistic doesn't care about figuring out the

595
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: best solution for the group. They just care about looking

596
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 2: like they did. Yeah, and why is it that they

597
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 2: get re elected? I mean, why are we drawn to

598
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: those types of personalities?

599
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 4: I mean, think about the incentive structure of the media

600
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 4: and social media to get attention, to get money. It's

601
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 4: putting yourself out there, making sure that you're the dominant voice.

602
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 4: It's also taking credit for things you didn't do. That's

603
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 4: a psychopathy pieces for being really manipulative and using people

604
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 4: like means to an end. That's the Macie rebellion and piece.

605
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 4: So those are actually, it turns out to me, pretty

606
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 4: useful traits for getting power, unfortunately, and we reward them.

607
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 4: I mean, think of here's another thing is people who

608
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 4: are often most hostile in social media, even not politicians,

609
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 4: often score really high on status seeking and narcissism. And

610
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 4: so everyone's posting non stop, being super aggressive, manipulating people,

611
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 4: trying to make themselves look good, even if behind the

612
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 4: scenes they're actually a nasty person. And so that's a

613
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 4: really useful trait for getting status and attention and credit

614
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 4: in the technology we've created.

615
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: Right, I think I heard you say somewhere that like

616
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: sixty seven percent more shares come if you say something

617
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: about the other side, not your group. So yeah, it

618
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: makes sense that we would be rewarding people who are willing.

619
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 4: To do that. Yeah.

620
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're willing to dunk on other people.

621
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 4: You know, it gets more attention, it gets more followers,

622
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 4: it gets more shares, it gets more clout.

623
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, it's usually coming out the

624
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 3: host of somebody.

625
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so talk to us about how difficult or

626
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: emotionally charged situations can kind of forge a shared identity.

627
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

628
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 4: So this is sometimes a good thing, right, when there's

629
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 4: a crisis, people can come together. So the one of

630
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 4: the amazing papers we found we talked about the story

631
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 4: in our book, was there was a plane that was

632
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 4: hijacked in the seventies by these essentially these terrorists. And

633
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 4: you know, when you go on a plane, I've been

634
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 4: on lots of plane rides. You know, I put on

635
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 4: my headphones, I watch a movie or I read a book.

636
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 4: I don't really talk to anybody. I don't even really

637
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 4: want to talk to anybody. And that's how most of

638
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 4: us like treat a plane trip. Right.

639
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 3: But when you're hijacked.

640
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 4: People all of a sudden developed the shared identity as passengers,

641
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 4: and they shared resources, shared food, they ration things, they

642
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 4: supported one another. And so in a crisis, people come

643
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,239
Speaker 4: together and all of a sudden they created a new

644
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 4: identity of passengers or hostages. And so this is what

645
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 4: happens in the world all the time. Circumstances happen, and

646
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 4: they trigger a sense of us, a sense of community

647
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 4: that pulls together, often against an enemy if there's one

648
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 4: that's like harming you, And so that can be a

649
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 4: good thing that creates solidarity and bonding. And that's kind

650
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 4: of I think the main function of identity, right, go

651
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 4: back to this evolutionary brain that we have, this really

652
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 4: old brain. It was creative because humans our main capacity

653
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 4: that is better than any other primate and almost any

654
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 4: other mammal or species on earth, is our capacity for cooperation.

655
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 4: We form groups that we cooperate unlike anything else. That's

656
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 4: why we can like go to outer space, that's why

657
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 4: we're all over the globe.

658
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: It's because we can.

659
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 4: Cooperate insane, but of course it can have downside, right,

660
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 4: you can cooperate to you know, engage in genocide or

661
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 4: something really awful too. So cooperation can have a dark

662
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 4: side if it's used for evil purposes.

663
00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: Right, In a cultic situation, frequently the cult leader will

664
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: kind of generate like a heightened experience or it's often

665
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: called mystical manipulation. Would this be kind of fall under

666
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: that category of something that could increase group identity?

667
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's part of what cultleaders are doing,

668
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 4: is creating a sense of identity. Often what they're doing

669
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 4: is against the rest of society. So one of the

670
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 4: cults we talked about in our book was the Seekers,

671
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 4: and they said that they had a prophecy. The woman

672
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 4: who led it had a prophecy that there was gonna

673
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 4: be this massive flood that was going to kill everybody.

674
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 4: And so this was like the crisis that led people

675
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 4: to join the cult and stick with it is because

676
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 4: they thought, well, we're part of something special, and there's

677
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 4: going to be aliens that are going to come down

678
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 4: and like save us for true believers. But it was

679
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 4: in response to this potential looming crisis.

680
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: Right. I feel like every element of a cult, it

681
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: like the defining characteristics of it, are all ones that

682
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 2: would increase like outgroup animosity and make you know, make

683
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: us hostile to groups that are not our group, because

684
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: everything about it is like it's stripping your identity, it's

685
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: changing your name, it's creating this like heightened emotional experience,

686
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: and like you said, there's often a doomsday which you

687
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: all would unite around.

688
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 5: That is that like.

689
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: Those things making that shared identity stronger and stronger and

690
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: stronger and stronger. Is that part of why it's so

691
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 2: hard to get people out of cults because their identities

692
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: are so baked at that point.

693
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, So imagine for a cult member, and magine if

694
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 4: we gave them the I am blank task, they're going

695
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 4: to say, I am you know, a seeker or whatever

696
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 4: their cult is. But what the cult's done, and what

697
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 4: exactly what you describe the leaders done, is stripped away

698
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 4: all those other parts of their identity.

699
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 3: So instead of containing five or ten.

700
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 4: Or twenty different identities like a normal person, they've lost

701
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 4: all those kind of personal traits that they cared about.

702
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 3: They've lost all those other identities.

703
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 4: They're no longer able to engage in the things often

704
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 4: that they that they love that are part of who

705
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 4: they are. And another thing that happens is like if

706
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 4: they have let's say family or friends outside the cults

707
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 4: who are like saying, listen, this doesn't sound right. You

708
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 4: shouldn't be giving all your mind to this group. The

709
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 4: cult often labels them like suppressives or some other term,

710
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 4: and tries to cut you off actively from your family

711
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 4: and friends that used to have They try to also

712
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 4: make you quit your job sometimes so you can dedicate

713
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 4: all your attention to the cult. And so what they've

714
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 4: done is systematically it's like chopping off your limbs. But

715
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 4: what they've chopped off is all your other sources of identity.

716
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: Hmmm, that's a good way to put it. For something

717
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: like QAnon. You know, obviously it's all online, but it's

718
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: just like the idea that something big and important is happening,

719
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: and I imagine that also would contribute to increasing that

720
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: shared identity.

721
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the special thing that's going to happen too,

722
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 4: is not just the crisis. In the case of QAnon,

723
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 4: it was like starting with like the sex trafficking and

724
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 4: the pizza gate. But it's also the special knowledge that

725
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 4: you're part of a group that knows the truth, and

726
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 4: so you are on the inside. And so remember what

727
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 4: I said, the two ingredients were to like really sticky groups. Right,

728
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 4: it's belongingness, which you have if you're accult They often

729
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 4: are very warm and supportive of you and make you

730
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 4: feel special in a sense of belonging, especially when you

731
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 4: first join. And the other thing that offer is distinctiveness,

732
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 4: is that we have special knowledge, we have a special purpose, and.

733
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 3: We're doing something that's more important than the rest of society.

734
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 4: And so that's again it's scratching those two inches that

735
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 4: people have for belongingness and distinctiveness, and that makes cults

736
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 4: really sticky for people.

737
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: It seems like the second one is almost more important,

738
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: Like your identity of not being the out group is

739
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: more important than your identity of being the in group.

740
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they'll often frame the out group as either

741
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 4: just roobs, like naive or stupid.

742
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 3: Or or sometimes sinister.

743
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 4: Is that like the rest of the world is up

744
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 4: to has this sinister plot or agenda. They're being controlled

745
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 4: by people who are manipulating you. So that that's very

746
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 4: much like the QAnon vibe. And so we're going to

747
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 4: let you in on a special insider info about how

748
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 4: it's all corrupt, and you can be part of this

749
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 4: group that's going to be kind of like anti corrupt

750
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 4: and so all we think of cult so I think

751
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 4: of cultu as and outsider is like pretty nefarious, manipulative,

752
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 4: often abusive, physically and sexually abusive and economically abusive groups.

753
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 3: But from the inside, what.

754
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 4: They're communicating to is that they're morally special, that they're virtuous,

755
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 4: and that they're against the things that are bad or

756
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 4: evil that are happening in the world.

757
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when when that much animosity happens within the group,

758
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: it can it would make it that much hurder. I imagine

759
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 2: to then not only lose your belongingness and your distinctiveness,

760
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: but also join this the like the bad ones, the

761
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 2: bad people. If you if you leave the group, you're

762
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: losing all of these things. I mean, it makes so

763
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 2: much sense that cult experts frequently talk about how you

764
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: can't directly attack the beliefs of the person in the

765
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 2: group because they have so much identity tied to it,

766
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: and you have to kind of sneakily get in other

767
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: ways if you want to get through to someone.

768
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think of this a little bit

769
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 4: sometimes if you're talking to somebody who's really hardcore in

770
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 4: to politics, like an extremist. It's like you can they

771
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 4: can tell you something that they read and you can

772
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 4: debunk it. You can say, well, here's an article that

773
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 4: disproves it, and then they just move to the next

774
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 4: belief that they have. It's like, well, your group does this,

775
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 4: and they don't even like. Changing their beliefs often doesn't

776
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 4: move them. And there's research on this that if you

777
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 4: fact check people's political beliefs that are wrong, doesn't change

778
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 4: who they're going to vote for. And the reason is

779
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 4: the beliefs are often stemming from the identity rather than

780
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 4: the other way around. Identity is not emerging from these beliefs, right,

781
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 4: And so that's the thing about really strong committed identities

782
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 4: is just like trying to debunk them, which is kind

783
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 4: of like the rational person's approach, right, like, oh, you

784
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 4: have these false premises, I'll just like show you evidence

785
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 4: as are true. This is often what like family members

786
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 4: will do if they have a friend and a cult. Oh,

787
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 4: they're lying to you about this or X or did

788
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 4: you see this EXPOSI found online? But often that's not

789
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 4: enough to break them from it, because they'll find a

790
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 4: way to rationalize or justify their beliefs.

791
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 2: In some other way, right, it's an emotional psychological need

792
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: that's being met. It's not an informational need. We don't need,

793
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 2: like facts aren't doing anything for any of us. It's

794
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: like that, it's the feelings that the group gives us

795
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: or the sense of purpose, you know.

796
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's why the reasons these groups prey on

797
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 4: people who are really lonely or don't have a sense

798
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 4: of purpose or distinctiveness, because they know that once we

799
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 4: feel that need, it's going to be you know, that

800
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 4: person's going to be really committed to the group and

801
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 4: have a hard time leaving. And so I think that

802
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 4: that's one thing you have to understand. It's kind of

803
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 4: like trying to tell somebody they're not hungry. It's like, well,

804
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 4: you just ate, didn't you? And if they're hungry, they're

805
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 4: just going to be like, I don't care what you

806
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 4: told people what I just ate? I want more because

807
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 4: I have a rumbling in my stomach. And so like

808
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 4: the arguing with them is not going to really convince

809
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 4: them that they're not hungry. And so it's kind of

810
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 4: you have to think about it through that need level,

811
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,439
Speaker 4: that that their basic needs are being met by this group.

812
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 4: In some pretty deep ways, and so that is something

813
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 4: that you're going to have to find a way to replace.

814
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: Wow, that is such a good analogy. I'm going to

815
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: steal it from you.

816
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 3: You feel like you don't have to give me credit.

817
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 2: I looked you up on rate my professor, and you

818
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: have a four point nine out of five and ninety

819
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 2: six percent. Would take your classes again, and I totally

820
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: understand why.

821
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: Now, Yeah, I know you're really good at so you're

822
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: really good at explaining things.

823
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 4: No, but I feel like you're enjoined my class any time.

824
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 4: If you want to talk about cults, I have a

825
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 4: huge class of three hundred and sixty people and I

826
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 4: bring in guests. So yeah, every you're interested cult psychology.

827
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 3: I'll bring you in.

828
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: I love that. I would love to do that. Yeah,

829
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 2: Just going back to the emotionally charged or difficult situations,

830
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: why do you think to go out to a more

831
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: societal level. Why do you think that nine to eleven

832
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 2: seem to bring us together as a country and wars

833
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: in the past brought Americans together, and COVID just outor

834
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 2: us apart, it did not have that same effect.

835
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 3: That's actually a really fantastic question and a hard one.

836
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 4: To wrap your mind around. So one, it's just a

837
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 4: reminder and I'll give you some evidence on this. And

838
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 4: after nine to eleven, support for George Bush, who was

839
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 4: a president of the United States, was around like forty

840
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 4: five before nine to eleven, and within a week it

841
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 4: had gone up to ninety percent. I think that's the

842
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 4: highest approval rating ever in history for an American president.

843
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 4: And then eventually it eroded and by time he left

844
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 4: office it was like thirty three percent of was the

845
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 4: lowest for the lowest ever. But there was a moment

846
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 4: where there's huge sense of consensus. So why it was

847
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 4: a specifically attack on America and American values and American symbols, right,

848
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 4: So I attacked the World Trade Center and the Pentagon

849
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 4: and they were going after was it the White.

850
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 3: House or the Capitol?

851
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 4: And so it was a specific attack on America, and

852
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,479
Speaker 4: it was by an outside thread was by terrorist group

853
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 4: of outsiders from other countries. And so this is almost

854
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 4: the exact ingredients you need to create a sense of

855
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 4: shared threat and shared identity. And so all of a sudden,

856
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 4: things like Republican and Democrat identity didn't matter, or you know,

857
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 4: if you're in like New York State or California or

858
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 4: Ohio or Idaho.

859
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: That didn't matter. It was a sense of America.

860
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 4: And by the way, people in you know, the other

861
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 4: parts of the country out than New York were very

862
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 4: anxious and threatened. Even if they were like in rural Nebraska.

863
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 4: They felt like that they could be the targets of

864
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 4: a terrorist threat. And so you might say, well, that's irrational,

865
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 4: that's kind of what you know, a person would have

866
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 4: said to them, but it didn't matter. That's what they felt.

867
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 4: They felt that their identity was under attack and seriously threatened.

868
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 4: And so that was the ingredients of.

869
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 3: Nine to eleven.

870
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 4: And obviously we now know nine to eleven led to

871
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 4: all these terrible policy decisions and death and disaster in

872
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 4: Iraq and Afghanistan, and and hate crimes went up against

873
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 4: you know, Muslims in the United States. I had all these,

874
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 4: you know, just because you rally together, if there's a

875
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 4: targeted outsider who looks like this person, it can lead

876
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 4: to kind of collateral damage of harassment and hate crimes

877
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 4: against those people in America, even if they don't support

878
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 4: terrorism at all, even if they're born in America, right,

879
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 4: they're true Americans.

880
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 3: In every sense.

881
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 4: Okay, so that that is what the psychology there was

882
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 4: now the psychology of the pandemic. It could have been

883
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 4: like that, but it mattered a lot how it's hand

884
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 4: by leaders.

885
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 3: And so what happened in the.

886
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 4: United States is and I've done a lot of research

887
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 4: on the pandemic. Why I got polarized, why it happened

888
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 4: in the United States is because I think Donald Trump,

889
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 4: and especially like Fox News and influencers who were supporting

890
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 4: Donald Trump, down played the risk of the pandemic, and

891
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 4: Democratic leaders took it very seriously. And so Trump was

892
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 4: saying in January that it wasn't going to be a

893
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 4: big deal. He said this through February, he said this

894
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 4: into March. I have like all the video clips of it.

895
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 4: As early as January. Joe Biden, who wasn't even the

896
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 4: nominee yet for the Democrats, wrote an article in USA

897
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 4: Today saying Trump was the worst possible leader to handle

898
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 4: the pandemic, and so he had, like the future president

899
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 4: and future leader of Democrats and the leader of Republicans

900
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 4: treating it very differently.

901
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: And that happened throughout much of the pandemic.

902
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 4: And things changed a little bit. But the you know,

903
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 4: Democrats were locked down much more. You know, Trump was

904
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 4: throwing huge like campaign rallies and events when it wasn't

905
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 4: when it wasn't advisable before vaccines were available. And so

906
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 4: the pandemic here and all the data backs up, was

907
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 4: polarized from the very earliest stages, from February in March

908
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty, and it never really returned. Republicans were

909
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 4: more against masks, they were far less likely to get vaccinated.

910
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 4: In fact, we have some data showing that whether you're

911
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 4: from a Republican or democratic part of the country, it

912
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 4: was the single biggest predictor of vaccination rates. We talked

913
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 4: a lot about things like race, or socio economic status, poverty, education,

914
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 4: none of those things was remotely close to just your

915
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 4: partisan affiliation. Okay, so that gives you a sense of

916
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 4: how that worked.

917
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 3: And so, but it didn't have to be that case.

918
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 4: I looked in data sixty seven countries in a study

919
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 4: I ran, and whether you're conservative or liberal was almost

920
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 4: completely uncorrelated with your attitude towards the pandemic around the

921
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 4: rest of the world.

922
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 3: And so it didn't have to be polarized in the US.

923
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 3: If Trump had taken it seriously from day one, you

924
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 3: would have seen no polarization. That would have been much

925
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 3: more of a source of shared identity. Why leaders are

926
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 3: so important. They can make things a source to rally

927
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 3: together or divide.

928
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 4: People and focus on different groups the political parties instead

929
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 4: of American identity.

930
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: Right yeah, yeah, And so especially if you do identify

931
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: as a Democrat or a Liberal, whatever your leadership is

932
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: saying one thing, like if Democrats had also decided to

933
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: not take it seriously, maybe we would have all united

934
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: around not taking it seriously. But our different leaders were

935
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: saying different things, which was also very confusing. I think

936
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: for real lot of.

937
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 4: People, it's a health disaster.

938
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 3: I think I ran the numbers on from Canada.

939
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 4: In Canada, there's polarizations a Conservative party, Liberal party, but

940
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 4: there was a really good study analyzing their leaders rhetoric

941
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 4: in the early months of the pandemic, and they both

942
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 4: take it seriously. And then you look at national polls

943
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 4: and Canadians both ticket from across the spectrum ticket seriously.

944
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 4: And that changed after a couple of years in vaccine mandates,

945
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 4: but for two years and then the death rate in

946
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 4: Canada was way way lower than the United States, and

947
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 4: so it was really something that could have gone another

948
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 4: way if if leaders had been on the same page

949
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 4: about it In the US.

950
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just it's it's very scary.

951
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 2: I mean, the wrong leader, just saying the wrong thing

952
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: can have such an impact on so many lives. I

953
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: have nothing smart to say about that other than that

954
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: I wish that we weren't so drawn to the dark

955
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 2: triad characteristics. I mean, I wish that there was something

956
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: that we could do to not make ourselves want to

957
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: follow the really really loud, self obsessed people.

958
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, this is this is one of the

959
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 4: reasons we wrote our book is to try to teach

960
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 4: people about how groups work so they could make them better.

961
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 3: You know, whether it's like their.

962
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 4: Own like you know, fan group, or there's an a

963
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 4: trivia club or something like that, or their daughter's soccer

964
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 4: team they're coaching, or if it's like society. We have

965
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 4: to understand how we're being manipulated, how identity is often

966
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 4: being used against us. And that's the that's the part

967
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 4: of cult psychology that's so interesting, right, Like, if you

968
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 4: understand how you're being manipulated, how the you off from

969
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 4: family and friends, how they're eliminating your other sources of identity,

970
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 4: then maybe you'll be like you'll have a little like

971
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 4: Spidey sense, it gets tingled when you interact with somebody

972
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 4: who's trying to, like, you know, lure you into a

973
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 4: group with those types of traits, you'll identify it as

974
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 4: more toxic and escape it sooner. And so that's kind

975
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 4: of the thing that we want to do, is like,

976
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 4: if you give people the knowledge, you're building up their

977
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 4: own immunity.

978
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 3: You know, we'll go back to the pandemic.

979
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 4: It's kind of like building up their own immunity to

980
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 4: when they encounter that because it is like a virus

981
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 4: and it's contagious and it can be very damaging to

982
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 4: groups of people.

983
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 2: How does group identity evolve from just feeling connected to

984
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 2: our group to just straight up hating people in the

985
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: other group?

986
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 5: Does that?

987
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 2: Is that a leadership thing? Or is that more like

988
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 2: something charged happens and we need someone to blame for it, Like,

989
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: how does that happen?

990
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 3: A great question?

991
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 4: So usually I started with that great study where people

992
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,240
Speaker 4: flip a coin and great two group.

993
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: That usually doesn't lead to outgroup hat.

994
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 4: In fact, we've find lots of studies, and usually what

995
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 4: it does is just boost your positive feelings towards the

996
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 4: in group and wanting resources for the in group. But

997
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 4: it doesn't necessarily lead you to want to dislike or

998
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 4: punish the outgroup. The really the hate of the outgroup

999
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 4: stems from leadership. It stems from developing specific negative stereotypes

1000
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 4: about them, and I would argue the two other biggest

1001
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 4: things that drive it are competition for scarce resources, so

1002
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 4: like only one party gets power or only one group

1003
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 4: gets the sacred land. And then the other part about

1004
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 4: sacred is morality is once you think the other group

1005
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 4: is doing something evil, then it's impossible to cooperate with them.

1006
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 3: It's one to thing that to think that other group's

1007
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 3: just stupid or.

1008
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 4: Incompetent, because you can always like work with them or

1009
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 4: cooperate with them at some level.

1010
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 3: But if you think they're doing something evil, you will

1011
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: do everything you can to stop them. You'll really despise them.

1012
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 4: And so a lot of the rhetoric of leaders who

1013
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 4: are really kind of the bad kind of leaders or

1014
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 4: cult leaders are trying to convince you that this other

1015
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 4: group or this other thing happening is actually evil. It's

1016
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 4: not just that it's wrong or that it's dumb, but

1017
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 4: that it's evil, and that seems to be a real

1018
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 4: motivator to mobilize people into a tight group, but also

1019
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 4: to get them to really hate.

1020
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 3: That other group.

1021
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 2: Right, that's that's so interesting. My brain was making connections

1022
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: in many different areas of life as you were saying that.

1023
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 2: You know, I see that on both sides of the

1024
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 2: political aisle. For sure, there's a moralizing how the other

1025
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 2: people must possess no morality whatsoever, and also in culture

1026
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 2: groups and the way that you know, often the public

1027
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,479
Speaker 2: will look at a look at members of a cult

1028
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 2: and assume that they are all evil rather than that

1029
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: they are being manipulated or abused in some way. And

1030
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 2: then you know, that can just lead to further like

1031
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 2: the people in the group doubling down on what they

1032
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 2: believe because they're being told that they're evil, which is

1033
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 2: an attack on their identity.

1034
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's the other thing that really

1035
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 4: gets people to rally, and this happens a lot with polarization.

1036
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:01,720
Speaker 3: Is one of the reasons people hate.

1037
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 4: The other party is because they think the other party

1038
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 4: really hates them. And so if you just communicate that

1039
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 4: actually the other group doesn't hate you nearly as much

1040
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 4: as you think. They chill out a little bit and

1041
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 4: become much more open minded and willing to engage with

1042
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 4: that person. But part of it is they've been told

1043
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 4: constantly by leaders by like extreme TV and news and

1044
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 4: radio and social media that they're watching that the other

1045
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,439
Speaker 4: party on average really despises and disrespects them and hates

1046
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 4: them and thinks they're evil. And so that's one of

1047
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 4: the things that is a real way to create conflict

1048
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 4: is just convince people that the other side hates them.

1049
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 6: Right.

1050
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 3: Oh, it's kind of like I tell you all the

1051
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 3: ways you're being manipulated.

1052
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 4: I also realized, like this would be terrible if some

1053
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 4: dictator got a hold of this podcast.

1054
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 1: Those dictators listen to the turn it off right now.

1055
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 3: The toolbox for manipulation.

1056
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I'm literally in a Netflix series called How to

1057
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: Become a Cult Leader. I'm in I am in that series,

1058
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: but I don't want anyone to actually do it. No, no,

1059
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 2: it So if somebody wanted to intervene with someone and

1060
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 2: we talked about it a little, but maybe you have

1061
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: more wisdom on this with someone who's in a cult

1062
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: or like really lodged in a group, thinky situation, like

1063
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 2: what would be a constructive way to signal to that

1064
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: person that you are not the enemy and kind of

1065
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 2: start a conversation.

1066
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the first thing I would say is like,

1067
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 4: don't attack their beliefs, like we talked about, try to listen,

1068
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 4: try to understand where they're coming from and what this

1069
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 4: group's doing for them. Another thing you can do is

1070
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 4: ask them questions, Oh, why do you stick with them?

1071
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 3: What do you like about them?

1072
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 4: You know, ask them questions and get them to think

1073
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 4: more critically and deeply about what they're doing.

1074
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 3: And people often really comfortable with that.

1075
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 4: And then sometimes they realize they don't know why they're

1076
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 4: doing it, or it starts to not make sense to them.

1077
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 4: But you know, this is just like classic Socratic questioning,

1078
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 4: and it gets them to realize, like some of the

1079
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 4: explanations they've been told don't make sense. Some of the

1080
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 4: stories they've heard at the cult don't make sense. So

1081
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 4: that's one thing you can do. The other thing, and

1082
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 4: this is really key, and this is for like, let's say,

1083
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 4: if your family members are deeping QAnon, and I have

1084
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 4: an uncle who I think is gone down that rabbit hole.

1085
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 3: It really sucks. I really care about this person.

1086
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 4: The instinct you have and I have, is like cut

1087
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 4: them off, block them on social media, don't engage with them.

1088
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 4: And over time I realize that's probably the wrong instinct.

1089
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 4: What you want to do is keep an open relationship

1090
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 4: with them so that when they're ready to come out,

1091
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 4: that they know that they can talk to you and

1092
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 4: you will be supportive and non judgmental. And I think

1093
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 4: if it is similar to like someone who's imagine you

1094
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 4: had a friend and I've had a friend in an

1095
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 4: abusive relationship.

1096
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 3: And they're not ready to leave it. You can't just

1097
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 3: drag them out of it. They've got to be ready

1098
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:31,919
Speaker 3: to leave.

1099
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 4: But it's really important that they know that they have

1100
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 4: supports when they are ready to leave, because if they've

1101
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 4: lost all those connections and support, which is by the way,

1102
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,879
Speaker 4: that's what abusive partners do is cut their partners off

1103
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 4: from all their family and friends and isolate them. Is

1104
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 4: you need to be there so that they know that

1105
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 4: they have a rope to escape. And so that's the

1106
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 4: other thing, is you need to be there. I think

1107
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 4: if you have someone who's gone down this extreme pathway

1108
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 4: into these kind of cult or conspiracy mentalities, that you're

1109
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 4: going to be there, that you're going to be non judgmental,

1110
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:00,959
Speaker 4: that you're going to for them, that you care about

1111
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 4: them as a person, regardless of if you disagree on

1112
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 4: this thing.

1113
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 3: You shouldn't obviously agree on.

1114
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 4: It, but I think it's like important to signal that

1115
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 4: you're there check in on them, because what happens is

1116
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 4: as they go deeper and deeper in the cult, that's

1117
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 4: often the first stage.

1118
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 3: They often enjoy it.

1119
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 4: It's a group of people, it's really fun, it's engaging,

1120
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 4: presence of community, a belonging distinctiveness. But then often once

1121
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 4: you go deeper down, then you start to get manipulated, abused, blackmail, misled,

1122
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 4: And so you want to be there for when they

1123
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,919
Speaker 4: start to realize that's too much and they start having

1124
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 4: these feelings of like cognitive dissonance, like this doesn't feel right.

1125
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 3: You want to be there to let them know that

1126
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 3: there's some offer for them right.

1127
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: Literally, yesterday, a very good friend of mine who has

1128
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 2: been in what, in my opinion is an abusive relationship

1129
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 2: called me, and they have no other friends left in

1130
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 2: their life, but called me and asked if I would

1131
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 2: support them if they left their partner.

1132
00:51:54,719 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 6: Oh wow, So what did you do to signal to

1133
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 6: that friend that it was safe at any time to

1134
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 6: call you even though they have no more friends and

1135
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 6: family in.

1136
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 3: Touch with them.

1137
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 2: Well, initially my response to their partner was to be like,

1138
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: they're bad, they're bad for you. Look at what they're doing,

1139
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: they're bad for you. That clearly didn't work, so I

1140
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 2: changed tack and started telling them I support whatever decision

1141
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 2: you make. I want you to be happy, and if

1142
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 2: this is making you happy, I support that, and just

1143
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,879
Speaker 2: continued to call them even when I wasn't really hearing

1144
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,959
Speaker 2: from them a lot. So you know, listen, maybe they won't,

1145
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: maybe this attempt won't succeed, because that's very common, but

1146
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 2: it does make me feel like, Okay, I did I

1147
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 2: did the right thing.

1148
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's like, you know, almost textbook what I would

1149
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 4: have recommended.

1150
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 3: So it sounds like.

1151
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 4: You it's just now take that and apply that to

1152
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 4: a friend who's in a cult or conspiratorial community.

1153
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 2: Right, totally.

1154
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 1: Ugh, it's exciting. Yeah, it's exciting to make all these connections.

1155
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 2: I know, are groups good? Can they be good? I

1156
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 2: just feel like there's so much for bad and I

1157
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 2: know they can be good, but I need you to

1158
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 2: tell me.

1159
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 4: Okay, so this is a a conceptional Well, first, let

1160
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 4: me ask you both, off the top of your head,

1161
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 4: on average, ignoring what I've talked about today, do you

1162
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 4: think groups are forces for good or evil in the

1163
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 4: wall or neutral?

1164
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: Both?

1165
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 4: Both?

1166
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1167
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 3: Both?

1168
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 2: But I would say in the past, like a few years,

1169
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 2: it's I just feel like I'm getting inundated with evidence

1170
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 2: of their badness, so it's hard for me to like

1171
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 2: remember that there is goodness to it as well.

1172
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 1: And I've never been in a good group project, so.

1173
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 2: Group projects are the worst. So I'm going to go

1174
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: with leaning towards bad.

1175
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, So I think groups are both. They have

1176
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 4: the potential to be good or bad. It's the leadership

1177
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 4: and the and the culture norms we create in them

1178
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 4: that matters. The problem is that the way that the

1179
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 4: media and social media present things is they find the

1180
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 4: worst examples.

1181
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 3: So we'll talk way.

1182
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 4: More about QAnon than we will about a community group

1183
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,439
Speaker 4: that's like you know, give you know, running a soup

1184
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 4: kitchen or like cleaning up the neighborhood.

1185
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 3: Right, that stuff doesn't make the news. It's not that interesting.

1186
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 3: There's no podcasts on it.

1187
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 4: It's funner to talk about these groups that are really pathological,

1188
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 4: and we can't stop it because it is important to

1189
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 4: understand them.

1190
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 3: But it's just also more interesting.

1191
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 4: It's the same reason there's like I mean, I love

1192
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 4: these movies like like serial serial killer, movies like Dahmer

1193
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 4: and stuff. Will endlessly be talking about Jeffrey Dahmer and

1194
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 4: serial killers even though they're incredibly rare. The vast majority

1195
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 4: of people would never, couldn't do that even if they

1196
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 4: wanted to. And so that's one of the things we

1197
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 4: have to understand. Individuals like serial killers are rare, and

1198
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 4: it doesn't mean people are intrinsically evil. And groups, even

1199
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 4: though they can be like Quanon or cults, can do

1200
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 4: evil things too, even though they're not intrinsically evil. So

1201
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 4: it's just the same logic you apply to individuals, you

1202
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 4: should apply to groups and understand. You know, I go

1203
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 4: to like you know, it's Clara a big sports fan.

1204
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 4: You know, I took my stepdad for his birthday to

1205
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 4: a hockey game and it's like twenty thousand people with

1206
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 4: their arch rivals. People are yelling all in their uniforms.

1207
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 4: Some people of face paint, but like not a single

1208
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 4: semblance of violence, like light, I'm surrounded by people with

1209
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 4: jerseys from the other teams and they were in a

1210
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 4: bigger pool of people from the home team, and no

1211
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 4: one harassed anybody. They give them some light ribbing and stuff, right,

1212
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 4: But this happens every day, all day, NonStop, with huge crowds,

1213
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,760
Speaker 4: with our tribals playing each other, and it almost never

1214
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 4: ever spills over to anything bad or violent, even though

1215
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 4: you think, well, our nature is to be group. Is

1216
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 4: you put fifty thousand people in a stadium, get them

1217
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 4: all riled up, get them wearing the same thing and chanting.

1218
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,879
Speaker 3: It's not going to be good, but almost always it's good.

1219
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 4: And so it's the reason is because we have norms

1220
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 4: and expectations about what it means to be a sports fan,

1221
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 4: that certain things are allowed, like light ribbing and teasing,

1222
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 4: but not to cross the line. And so I think

1223
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 4: that you can do that with any group, that we

1224
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 4: can scale that to huge groups, we can scale it

1225
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 4: to countries.

1226
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 3: A lot of countries.

1227
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 4: We could think national borders would lead to more war,

1228
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 4: but there's actually been way less people dying for war

1229
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 4: than there were one hundred years ago. In fact, for

1230
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 4: now part of like this the most peaceful last fifty

1231
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 4: years in human history in terms of group warfare. And

1232
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 4: so we've gotten better and better by creating healthier norms

1233
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 4: and institutions. So that's why I think like the lesson

1234
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 4: from all this is that we have this disposition, this

1235
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 4: is evolutionary, evolutionarily very old brain with this potential, but

1236
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 4: we can harness it in ways that like do these

1237
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 4: amazing things, or we can let evil people harness in

1238
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 4: ways that cause conflicts. I think it's like for us

1239
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 4: not to be manipulated by the evil people and then

1240
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 4: the burdens on us for to create healthy groups. And

1241
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 4: that means even if it's like a study group or

1242
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 4: a work group, you know, there's lots. I've been the

1243
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 4: person like at midnight the night before trying to finish

1244
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 4: the group project because no one showed up in my

1245
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 4: house or carried their role. And so it's like ever

1246
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 4: since I've been always thinking, Okay, well, how can we

1247
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 4: assign the tasks for fairly? How can we set a schedule?

1248
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 4: And now I've got that that's like an art I

1249
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 4: can run. I do group projects all day long with

1250
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 4: my research team and it's like smooth and fun and

1251
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 4: easy and almost no conflict. But it took many years

1252
00:56:57,680 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 4: of figuring out how to master it. And I think

1253
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 4: that's the thing about groups. It's like a skill. Managing

1254
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 4: a group is a skill, and you can do it

1255
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 4: well or you can leave it to the people who

1256
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 4: are going to do it not well. Those will be

1257
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 4: your narcissists in your psychopaths and your machiavellian type people,

1258
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 4: and they're always going to be there. They're going to

1259
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 4: try to get power and run groups and organizations, and

1260
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 4: we have to kind of like stand up against them

1261
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 4: and not let them be the only people who have

1262
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 4: that that power and that that voice.

1263
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 2: Right, So what I'm hearing is that we need to

1264
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 2: start another podcast that just talks about good groups. Good

1265
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 2: group be really boring.

1266
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 3: Would be what would be the opposite of a cult?

1267
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 4: So let's think of it, like, what is a group

1268
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 4: that's the opposite of cult in your mind?

1269
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: A community? A chess club, Yeah, a little community the

1270
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: people who like swim every morning or something, just you know,

1271
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: it's not your whole life, but it gives you a

1272
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: sense of belongingness and meaning.

1273
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean opposite of a cult. Every group has

1274
00:57:52,240 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 2: the potential to be cult, but in and morning swim No,

1275
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 2: I mean there are many.

1276
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 4: And they're all surrounding us, like people who have book

1277
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 4: clubs and I have a writers We have all these

1278
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 4: little things that we don't think of but are really

1279
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 4: like the air we breathe, because that's actually what we

1280
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 4: do most of the day, is like moving and out

1281
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 4: of like actually probably pretty healthy groups.

1282
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, well this has been so enlightening and I

1283
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 2: feel like a little shred of hope about humanity from

1284
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 2: this conversation. So thank you for that.

1285
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 5: Do you want to tell people what your book.

1286
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 2: Is and where they can find you and your work?

1287
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? Great. So my name is Jay van Babel.

1288
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 4: My book is called The Power of Us that it

1289
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 4: was written with Dominic Packer, and we have a website

1290
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 4: called power off Us dot online where.

1291
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 3: You can look at some ray of the book.

1292
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 4: We also have a free newsletter that comes out weekly

1293
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 4: where we talk about all kinds of stuff like this,

1294
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 4: cults and groups and organizations and politics, and we also.

1295
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 3: Try to make it all based on science and evidence.

1296
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 4: That's kind of also kind of, in my view, the

1297
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 4: opposite of a cult, which is all mythology and narrative

1298
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 4: and manipulation.

1299
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 3: We try to make people smarter about groups.

1300
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 4: So if you want to get smarter about groups, if

1301
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 4: you please buy the book or join the newsletter and

1302
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 4: hopefully help you on that pathway.

1303
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 2: I love it. Thank you so much for joining us.

1304
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me. This is a lot

1305
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 3: of fun. I love to talk about this stuff.

1306
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, he's so cool like me.

1307
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're the coolest.

1308
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: Okay. So is there any group that you hate so

1309
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:31,439
Speaker 1: much that you end up identifying with the opposite thing

1310
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 1: even though you're not completely sold on their message.

1311
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 2: That I hate so much. I don't know if I

1312
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 2: would use the word hate, but I think that like

1313
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 2: I do. I definitely notice that when I'm talking to

1314
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 2: a man and he is really drawn to a particular

1315
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 2: set of figures who we've talked about a little bit

1316
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 2: on here, like people in the intellectual dark Web or whatever,

1317
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 2: like if he really likes Benchabuiro or really likes, you know,

1318
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 2: Dave Ruben or Jordan Peters's and I have an instant

1319
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 2: aversion to it, and it makes me. I find myself

1320
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 2: casting judgments on him and then wanting to go to

1321
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 2: the other side of and like I've like literally like

1322
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 2: found myself being like, oh my god, I have to

1323
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 2: find the community of people who hate these guys, which

1324
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 2: of course is not correct. I mean I recognize that,

1325
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 2: and I have and I have like made efforts to

1326
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 2: like actually try to see what it is that is

1327
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 2: in their messaging that's resonating with people, because I think

1328
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 2: that's really important because obviously it's so many, it's like

1329
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 2: millions of people who love these guys. There's something about

1330
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 2: them that's like appealing to people, and I want to

1331
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 2: see what that is. But my first instinct that I'm

1332
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 2: fighting against is definitely like no.

1333
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 1: Bad you, reality show idea you and Ben Shapiro an

1334
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 1: Island go.

1335
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 2: And then what we fuck?

1336
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: Like no you fight and then you find peace?

1337
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 2: God maybe it's through fucking.

1338
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 3: I don't know, no, uh.

1339
01:00:58,120 --> 01:00:58,439
Speaker 4: I mean.

1340
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 2: Part of my version, I think comes from how much

1341
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 2: I see them railing against any progressive values. Like so

1342
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 2: I see how much it's like their whole platform is

1343
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 2: based on like not wanting to have to use people's

1344
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 2: chosen pronouns or you know, a resistance to what they

1345
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 2: view as policing of language, which I think can be true. Sometimes,

1346
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 2: but they do it so vehemently that it makes me

1347
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 2: feel like, oh, they hate me and my values, so

1348
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 2: I need to hate them back.

1349
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: And that's what he said.

1350
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 4: That is, but he's.

1351
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 1: Oh my god, wow, we fixed it.

1352
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 2: It's done.

1353
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 1: Guys.

1354
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I but that I think that is a

1355
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 2: really a big part of it. They're like trying to

1356
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 2: own libs and own libs and own libs, and you know,

1357
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 2: and I'm like, well that's me. So it's like, leave

1358
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 2: me alone then, guy.

1359
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you get them served, You got served.

1360
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 2: I get it. But like I said, I don't I

1361
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 2: don't think people who listen to those guys don't there's

1362
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 2: anything inherently wrong or bad about this people. I think that,

1363
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 2: like I just personally have aversion to those to that

1364
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 2: way of viewing the world. Yeah, and hopefully you can

1365
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 2: find common ground with all the three men who listen

1366
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 2: to this podcast who also like those guys.

1367
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1368
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 1: Give a little note in our endbox. We are so

1369
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: glad y'all joined us this week. We cannot wait to

1370
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: see you here again next week. And as always, remember

1371
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: to follow your gut, watch out for red flags, and never.

1372
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 2: Ever trust me. Bye bye, you trust Me is produced

1373
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 2: by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delamater.

1374
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para and.

1375
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 2: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1376
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1377
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at trust.

1378
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 2: Me Cult Podcast. I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola

1379
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 2: Lola on Twitter.

1380
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1381
01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 1: Hits on Twitter.

1382
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word

1383
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 3: M