1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,796 --> 00:00:20,956 Speaker 2: The first week I arrived, I was met at the 3 00:00:20,956 --> 00:00:24,836 Speaker 2: back door by local folks who were bringing in flats 4 00:00:24,876 --> 00:00:27,876 Speaker 2: of blueberries, and it was just it was remarkable. 5 00:00:28,556 --> 00:00:32,276 Speaker 1: That's Ken Cardon speaking. He's the executive chef at Bowden 6 00:00:32,356 --> 00:00:35,756 Speaker 1: College in Maine. In the world of American colleges, Chef 7 00:00:35,796 --> 00:00:38,156 Speaker 1: Cardon's food holds a special place. 8 00:00:38,396 --> 00:00:41,636 Speaker 3: So you've consistently make the top nomber one spot on 9 00:00:41,676 --> 00:00:44,956 Speaker 3: the lists of best college food. What are a couple 10 00:00:44,956 --> 00:00:47,116 Speaker 3: of things that you think sets Boden apart? 11 00:00:47,316 --> 00:00:50,236 Speaker 1: And that's Jacob Smith, one of my producers. He went 12 00:00:50,316 --> 00:00:53,916 Speaker 1: up to Maine for Revisionist History's first culinary investigation. 13 00:00:56,076 --> 00:00:57,796 Speaker 4: Can you just describe what we're looking at? Here? 14 00:00:58,956 --> 00:01:01,636 Speaker 2: Directly below us is a salad bar, and you'll notice 15 00:01:01,636 --> 00:01:06,076 Speaker 2: in the center of the salad bar there's several prepared salads, entrees, salads, 16 00:01:06,236 --> 00:01:08,396 Speaker 2: and then you have your make your own areas. To 17 00:01:08,436 --> 00:01:13,316 Speaker 2: the right and left, there's homemade soups in vegan options, 18 00:01:13,756 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 2: there's fresh fruits and desserts, and then you'll see there's 19 00:01:17,356 --> 00:01:20,356 Speaker 2: condiments and toppings, and we actually make our own peanut 20 00:01:20,356 --> 00:01:24,796 Speaker 2: butter and bake our own breads, and that's all available 21 00:01:24,916 --> 00:01:25,716 Speaker 2: at every meal. 22 00:01:25,956 --> 00:01:29,516 Speaker 1: My guess is your college wasn't like this. Mine certainly wasn't. 23 00:01:29,836 --> 00:01:32,716 Speaker 2: And as you can see, we always have a vegan 24 00:01:32,756 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 2: and vegetarian item for our hot soups, and today a 25 00:01:36,796 --> 00:01:39,556 Speaker 2: favorite for launch is a hot turkey sandwich in arizo 26 00:01:39,716 --> 00:01:40,836 Speaker 2: and tofu salad. 27 00:01:41,836 --> 00:01:44,756 Speaker 1: I worked in my college cafeteria as an undergrad, and 28 00:01:44,996 --> 00:01:48,556 Speaker 1: just remembering that fact now is bringing the smell of 29 00:01:48,596 --> 00:01:54,076 Speaker 1: the dining hall wafting back grease, disinfectant, aging, mayonnaise, cold 30 00:01:54,116 --> 00:01:58,316 Speaker 1: fried eggs, all in some horrible combination that was the 31 00:01:58,396 --> 00:02:01,756 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. I don't think that anyone properly understood back 32 00:02:01,756 --> 00:02:05,636 Speaker 1: then how crucial healthy eating was to a positive learning environment. 33 00:02:06,396 --> 00:02:10,036 Speaker 1: Bodin is in a whole different class like Paradise. 34 00:02:10,596 --> 00:02:14,156 Speaker 2: The deli special today is a smashed chickpea, avocado and 35 00:02:14,236 --> 00:02:18,156 Speaker 2: pesto sandwich, and we have a faro salad with aspiragus 36 00:02:18,196 --> 00:02:18,836 Speaker 2: and parmesan. 37 00:02:19,116 --> 00:02:20,636 Speaker 4: Cool. So can we take a look at the kitchen? 38 00:02:20,676 --> 00:02:21,556 Speaker 4: Are we able to go back there? 39 00:02:22,836 --> 00:02:24,676 Speaker 2: As you can see if you look down right here 40 00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:30,476 Speaker 2: at at this area, we're preparing fresh rosemary is one 41 00:02:30,476 --> 00:02:33,396 Speaker 2: of the ingredients in tonight's dinner, and they're cutting chicken, 42 00:02:34,036 --> 00:02:36,396 Speaker 2: so everything really is done from scratch. 43 00:02:37,076 --> 00:02:38,276 Speaker 4: It has that for us, all. 44 00:02:38,156 --> 00:02:45,716 Speaker 1: Touch, fresh rosemary and the personal touch. But here's what 45 00:02:45,756 --> 00:02:48,636 Speaker 1: I want to talk about. The food at Bowden is 46 00:02:48,676 --> 00:02:52,276 Speaker 1: actually a problem, a moral problem. I don't mean this 47 00:02:52,356 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 1: in any way as a criticism of people like Ken Cardon. 48 00:02:55,476 --> 00:02:58,476 Speaker 1: He's very, very good at what he does. Jacob, my producer, 49 00:02:58,596 --> 00:03:01,556 Speaker 1: is a massive foodie and he was impressed. It takes 50 00:03:01,596 --> 00:03:04,156 Speaker 1: a lot to impress Jacob. Not do I mean that 51 00:03:04,236 --> 00:03:09,156 Speaker 1: people students in particular shouldn't eat properly. They should. The 52 00:03:09,196 --> 00:03:11,516 Speaker 1: point is at every choice we make, even if it's 53 00:03:11,556 --> 00:03:15,276 Speaker 1: the right choice at that moment, has larger consequences, some 54 00:03:15,316 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 1: of them unexpected and paradoxical, and Ken Cardon's amazing food 55 00:03:20,196 --> 00:03:26,276 Speaker 1: is one of those things. My name is Malcolm Glauwell. 56 00:03:26,756 --> 00:03:31,956 Speaker 1: Welcome to Revisionist History, my podcast about things forgotten or misunderstood. 57 00:03:35,076 --> 00:03:38,036 Speaker 1: This is actually episode two of a little three part 58 00:03:38,116 --> 00:03:40,836 Speaker 1: mini series I've dropped into the middle of Revisionist History. 59 00:03:41,556 --> 00:03:44,276 Speaker 1: It's a re examination of one of the most fundamental 60 00:03:44,276 --> 00:03:47,276 Speaker 1: ideas in American life that if you have some ability 61 00:03:47,316 --> 00:03:49,316 Speaker 1: and work hard, you can make it to the top. 62 00:03:50,156 --> 00:03:52,756 Speaker 1: The episode before this was about a kid named Carlos, 63 00:03:53,196 --> 00:03:56,196 Speaker 1: a brilliant kid, and just how many obstacles stand in 64 00:03:56,236 --> 00:03:57,996 Speaker 1: the way of his making it out of south central 65 00:03:58,036 --> 00:04:02,196 Speaker 1: Los Angeles. This episode is about what it takes for 66 00:04:02,276 --> 00:04:04,716 Speaker 1: a poor kid to get a good college degree, and 67 00:04:04,796 --> 00:04:07,276 Speaker 1: strange as it may sound, campus food at a place 68 00:04:07,356 --> 00:04:12,636 Speaker 1: like Bowden is a big part of that problem. The 69 00:04:12,716 --> 00:04:15,316 Speaker 1: best way to understand this is to compare Boden with 70 00:04:15,316 --> 00:04:19,596 Speaker 1: one of its competitors, Vassar College. Vassar is in Poughkeepsie, 71 00:04:19,756 --> 00:04:21,876 Speaker 1: just north of New York City. It's a lot like 72 00:04:21,916 --> 00:04:25,436 Speaker 1: Boden in many ways. They're both small, elite Northeastern Liberal 73 00:04:25,476 --> 00:04:29,356 Speaker 1: arts colleges. Lots of students apply to both schools. They're 74 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:32,636 Speaker 1: in the same category, but there are also some differences. 75 00:04:33,196 --> 00:04:35,596 Speaker 1: Vassar is a little bigger and edgier, a lot more 76 00:04:35,676 --> 00:04:40,116 Speaker 1: dyed hair and tattoos. Boden is smaller and preppier. Boden 77 00:04:40,156 --> 00:04:43,356 Speaker 1: also has more money, not a lot more, but enough 78 00:04:43,356 --> 00:04:46,596 Speaker 1: that it matters. And then there's the issue of food. 79 00:04:48,996 --> 00:04:52,276 Speaker 4: How's the food at Vassar? What you say, food? It 80 00:04:52,316 --> 00:04:56,236 Speaker 4: could be better, you know, there's always room for improvement. 81 00:04:56,276 --> 00:04:58,676 Speaker 5: The Saldar always makes me kind of sad like one 82 00:04:58,716 --> 00:05:01,876 Speaker 5: time I was eating like a spinach kale stirfry that 83 00:05:01,996 --> 00:05:06,236 Speaker 5: was prepared and I may or may not have found 84 00:05:06,236 --> 00:05:08,036 Speaker 5: like an industrial size staple in it. 85 00:05:10,916 --> 00:05:13,756 Speaker 1: The president of Vassar College is a woman named Catherine Hill. 86 00:05:14,276 --> 00:05:18,476 Speaker 1: She's an economist by training. Tall, gracious, distinguished, a touch 87 00:05:18,476 --> 00:05:21,276 Speaker 1: of gray, what you would expect from an academic leader. 88 00:05:21,876 --> 00:05:24,636 Speaker 1: We met in her office on the Vassar campus, which 89 00:05:24,676 --> 00:05:27,756 Speaker 1: is full of lots of Gothic greystone buildings and creaky 90 00:05:27,796 --> 00:05:32,876 Speaker 1: oak staircases, huge double sash windows, ancient rugs, all very 91 00:05:32,956 --> 00:05:36,436 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Before she was at Vassar, Catherine Hill was 92 00:05:36,436 --> 00:05:39,916 Speaker 1: at Williams College, about two hours north of Poughkeepsie. She 93 00:05:40,036 --> 00:05:44,236 Speaker 1: was the provost. While she was there, Princeton dramatically expanded 94 00:05:44,276 --> 00:05:47,676 Speaker 1: its financial aid, and suddenly every liberal arts college in 95 00:05:47,676 --> 00:05:50,996 Speaker 1: the country felt it had to examine its policies as well. 96 00:05:51,276 --> 00:05:52,876 Speaker 6: So we had to figure out what we were going 97 00:05:52,916 --> 00:05:56,596 Speaker 6: to do in response to Princeton announcing that they were 98 00:05:56,596 --> 00:05:58,036 Speaker 6: going to move away from loans. 99 00:05:58,236 --> 00:06:01,476 Speaker 1: So Hill teams up with another economist and starts digging 100 00:06:01,556 --> 00:06:03,676 Speaker 1: around in the data from the admissions office. 101 00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:06,116 Speaker 6: A colleague of mine, Gordon Winston, and I asked the question, 102 00:06:06,156 --> 00:06:08,556 Speaker 6: do we know what we're actually asking families to pay 103 00:06:09,316 --> 00:06:11,796 Speaker 6: to come to Williams. So we'd always assumed that we 104 00:06:11,796 --> 00:06:14,956 Speaker 6: were doing just, you know, a great job with talented 105 00:06:15,036 --> 00:06:17,996 Speaker 6: kids from all different economic backgrounds. And what we found 106 00:06:18,036 --> 00:06:22,396 Speaker 6: out was that we were asking students from lower income 107 00:06:22,476 --> 00:06:24,716 Speaker 6: quintils to pay an awfully high share of their family 108 00:06:24,756 --> 00:06:27,876 Speaker 6: income to come to attend. And we were also finding 109 00:06:27,916 --> 00:06:30,796 Speaker 6: out that we weren't getting many, not surprisingly, you know, 110 00:06:30,836 --> 00:06:33,196 Speaker 6: I think we were finding that we were asking families 111 00:06:33,196 --> 00:06:35,516 Speaker 6: in the bottom forty percent of the income distribution to 112 00:06:35,556 --> 00:06:38,796 Speaker 6: pay about fifty percent of their family incomes free tax. 113 00:06:39,196 --> 00:06:41,916 Speaker 1: He'll saying that at that time, if the family of 114 00:06:41,956 --> 00:06:44,876 Speaker 1: a poor, smart kid wanted their child to go to Williams, 115 00:06:45,236 --> 00:06:48,716 Speaker 1: that have to spend half their income on tuition half. 116 00:06:49,476 --> 00:06:51,636 Speaker 1: That's why there were so few poor kids at Williams. 117 00:06:52,356 --> 00:06:54,876 Speaker 1: So while she's at Williams, the school starts making its 118 00:06:54,916 --> 00:06:58,596 Speaker 1: financial aid a lot more generous, then He'll becomes president 119 00:06:58,636 --> 00:06:59,076 Speaker 1: of Vassar. 120 00:06:59,356 --> 00:07:01,876 Speaker 6: Vasser was an institution that was committed to these kinds 121 00:07:01,876 --> 00:07:05,436 Speaker 6: of issues, and when we looked at the actual data, 122 00:07:05,476 --> 00:07:07,316 Speaker 6: it turned out that compared to some of our peer 123 00:07:07,316 --> 00:07:10,116 Speaker 6: schools we, in fact, weren't all that either in terms 124 00:07:10,156 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 6: of socioeconomic diversity or racial diversity. 125 00:07:12,796 --> 00:07:16,756 Speaker 1: So she decides to change Vassar's priorities. Students from the 126 00:07:16,796 --> 00:07:19,596 Speaker 1: poorest families in the United States get a small five 127 00:07:19,636 --> 00:07:22,236 Speaker 1: thousand dollars grand from the federal government called a pel grant. 128 00:07:23,036 --> 00:07:25,956 Speaker 1: Hill decides she wants to accept way more pel grant 129 00:07:25,956 --> 00:07:28,436 Speaker 1: students Advassor. So, what are you spending on financially? 130 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:31,516 Speaker 6: We're spending about sixty million dollars sixty million. Yeah, and 131 00:07:31,796 --> 00:07:33,556 Speaker 6: when I started to know six it was about twenty 132 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 6: five million. I see. So it's basically it's about double. 133 00:07:37,276 --> 00:07:41,116 Speaker 6: And we have about twenty three percent pell grant recipients, 134 00:07:41,156 --> 00:07:44,756 Speaker 6: which makes us, I think, the highest amongst a very 135 00:07:44,836 --> 00:07:47,276 Speaker 6: large group of schools and the lowest income. 136 00:07:47,076 --> 00:07:50,356 Speaker 1: Kids and pale. When you started, what was was it? 137 00:07:50,636 --> 00:07:52,436 Speaker 1: I think I read eleven percent when you started. 138 00:07:52,836 --> 00:07:54,876 Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, I'm not I'm not even sure we 139 00:07:54,876 --> 00:07:57,836 Speaker 6: were tracking it, but it was in the low teens. 140 00:07:58,116 --> 00:08:01,396 Speaker 1: That was ten years ago. Since then, Hill has discovered 141 00:08:01,396 --> 00:08:04,516 Speaker 1: two things. The first is exactly what we talked about 142 00:08:04,556 --> 00:08:07,316 Speaker 1: in the last episode. There's a ton of smart, poor 143 00:08:07,396 --> 00:08:10,316 Speaker 1: kids out there. You can easily double the number that 144 00:08:10,396 --> 00:08:13,276 Speaker 1: you accepted a school like Vassar and not compromise your 145 00:08:13,316 --> 00:08:16,636 Speaker 1: academic standards. Okay, that's the first thing, the good news. 146 00:08:17,076 --> 00:08:18,236 Speaker 1: Then there's the bad news. 147 00:08:18,756 --> 00:08:22,836 Speaker 6: I think a lot of school said, okay, so yeah, 148 00:08:22,916 --> 00:08:24,636 Speaker 6: they're out there, let's see if we can find some 149 00:08:25,156 --> 00:08:28,036 Speaker 6: and recruit more. I think over time, I've come to 150 00:08:28,076 --> 00:08:32,836 Speaker 6: realize that the main constraint, despite commitments on the parts 151 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:35,676 Speaker 6: of schools to do this, the reality is is if 152 00:08:35,716 --> 00:08:38,636 Speaker 6: you take a talented, low income kid, you've got to 153 00:08:38,676 --> 00:08:41,756 Speaker 6: offer significantly more financial aid. And every dollar that you 154 00:08:41,796 --> 00:08:44,396 Speaker 6: spend on financial aid is a dollar that you don't 155 00:08:44,396 --> 00:08:47,436 Speaker 6: have to spend on something else, and that is ultimately 156 00:08:47,676 --> 00:08:49,116 Speaker 6: the real challenge. 157 00:08:49,356 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 1: Tuition at Vassar including room and board is sixty two 158 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year. You let in some poor kid 159 00:08:55,916 --> 00:08:59,236 Speaker 1: for free, you're out somewhin range of sixty two thousand dollars. 160 00:08:59,756 --> 00:09:00,236 Speaker 4: Give me an. 161 00:09:00,116 --> 00:09:01,836 Speaker 1: Example of the kind of trade offs you've had to 162 00:09:01,876 --> 00:09:05,556 Speaker 1: deal with because you wanted to increase your financial aid package. 163 00:09:05,716 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 6: It would be spending more to renovate old dormitories and bathrooms. 164 00:09:12,276 --> 00:09:15,676 Speaker 6: It would be better food in the dining hall. You know, 165 00:09:15,716 --> 00:09:18,716 Speaker 6: many of those things are really good things, and you're 166 00:09:18,716 --> 00:09:19,796 Speaker 6: always making trade offs. 167 00:09:20,076 --> 00:09:23,516 Speaker 1: Yeah in the margin, did you catch that better food 168 00:09:23,636 --> 00:09:29,996 Speaker 1: in the dining hall? Right after my producer Jacob went 169 00:09:30,036 --> 00:09:32,716 Speaker 1: to Bowden to check out their food, he went to Vassar. 170 00:09:33,556 --> 00:09:34,476 Speaker 4: How often do you eat there? 171 00:09:35,396 --> 00:09:36,276 Speaker 7: About twice a day? 172 00:09:36,836 --> 00:09:39,556 Speaker 1: Jacob is talking to a sophomore advassor named Amanda. 173 00:09:40,476 --> 00:09:44,076 Speaker 7: So, lunch and dinner usually I do like a quick 174 00:09:44,116 --> 00:09:47,116 Speaker 7: breakfast in the dinner because breakfast is notoriously their best meal. 175 00:09:47,356 --> 00:09:49,236 Speaker 4: And what about dinner? What's dinner look like? 176 00:09:51,316 --> 00:09:55,356 Speaker 7: Pretty terrifying? Sometimes it's weird. It oscillates between Sometimes they 177 00:09:55,356 --> 00:09:57,996 Speaker 7: have really good ethnic food. Actually they'll surprisingly put together 178 00:09:58,036 --> 00:10:00,756 Speaker 7: a very good meal, and then there's other nights where 179 00:10:00,796 --> 00:10:04,316 Speaker 7: you get there and it's kind of like pasta very sad, 180 00:10:04,556 --> 00:10:07,916 Speaker 7: like neat sandwich thing you're not really sure about, and 181 00:10:07,996 --> 00:10:11,196 Speaker 7: like pizza, usually end. 182 00:10:11,196 --> 00:10:12,036 Speaker 4: Up with soup that night. 183 00:10:12,076 --> 00:10:15,236 Speaker 8: It's yeah, what. 184 00:10:15,116 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 4: Would you say? 185 00:10:15,716 --> 00:10:19,836 Speaker 3: Like The most common complaints about the food from students. 186 00:10:21,596 --> 00:10:25,236 Speaker 7: Usually lack of variety of taste. Also, some people it's 187 00:10:25,316 --> 00:10:27,436 Speaker 7: kind of gross to talk about, but like claim it 188 00:10:27,516 --> 00:10:29,836 Speaker 7: really gives them indigestion, Like they're not happy with the 189 00:10:29,876 --> 00:10:30,276 Speaker 7: quality of. 190 00:10:30,236 --> 00:10:33,436 Speaker 3: The food by indingestion. Do you mean it has like 191 00:10:33,476 --> 00:10:36,836 Speaker 3: a laxative effect? Is that the complaint because I've heard 192 00:10:36,876 --> 00:10:37,436 Speaker 3: that elsewhere. 193 00:10:37,756 --> 00:10:41,636 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's one hundred percent what I'm talking about. 194 00:10:42,756 --> 00:10:45,716 Speaker 3: If you could step in and make like sweeping changes 195 00:10:45,756 --> 00:10:48,436 Speaker 3: to dining at vast or what would you change. 196 00:10:50,156 --> 00:10:52,676 Speaker 7: Sweeping changes? I mean my thing is like, I know, 197 00:10:52,836 --> 00:10:54,796 Speaker 7: I'm kind of spoiled because I'm from California, so I'm 198 00:10:54,836 --> 00:10:56,716 Speaker 7: used to just a higher quality of food in general, 199 00:10:56,756 --> 00:10:58,676 Speaker 7: because like the soudbar always makes me kind of sad, 200 00:10:58,756 --> 00:11:01,076 Speaker 7: like or like the nights where they're like we have 201 00:11:01,116 --> 00:11:04,396 Speaker 7: guacamolan and it's like literally just like this pasty disgusting, 202 00:11:04,556 --> 00:11:07,636 Speaker 7: like just you know, they obviously just purade some like 203 00:11:07,916 --> 00:11:08,996 Speaker 7: unripe avocados. 204 00:11:09,836 --> 00:11:14,396 Speaker 1: Vassar has terrible food. Boden practically has a Michelin star. 205 00:11:15,316 --> 00:11:18,956 Speaker 1: Two otherwise almost identical schools that, on this one measure 206 00:11:19,076 --> 00:11:23,636 Speaker 1: couldn't be more different, and why because Boden doesn't spend 207 00:11:23,796 --> 00:11:32,236 Speaker 1: nearly as much on financial aid as Vassar does. Now, 208 00:11:32,276 --> 00:11:34,236 Speaker 1: I don't want to single out Boden as some kind 209 00:11:34,236 --> 00:11:37,276 Speaker 1: of moral villain. There are lots of private colleges in 210 00:11:37,316 --> 00:11:39,996 Speaker 1: the US that do a far worse job than Boden 211 00:11:40,156 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 1: at educating low income students. But just listen to these numbers. 212 00:11:44,476 --> 00:11:48,556 Speaker 1: Twenty three percent of Vassar's undergraduates are on pelgrants. That is, 213 00:11:48,756 --> 00:11:52,236 Speaker 1: they come from the poorest part of American society. At Boden, 214 00:11:52,596 --> 00:11:56,196 Speaker 1: just thirteen percent of students are on pelgrants, so just 215 00:11:56,276 --> 00:11:59,436 Speaker 1: over half as many as at Vassar. The New York 216 00:11:59,476 --> 00:12:03,036 Speaker 1: Times does something called an Access Index, which measures how 217 00:12:03,036 --> 00:12:05,556 Speaker 1: good a job a college does at opening its doors 218 00:12:05,556 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 1: to low income students. The way the index works, an 219 00:12:08,716 --> 00:12:11,516 Speaker 1: average score is one. If you do better than average, 220 00:12:11,556 --> 00:12:15,196 Speaker 1: your score is greater than one. Among all American universities 221 00:12:15,196 --> 00:12:19,116 Speaker 1: and colleges measured, Vassar comes in eighth with a score 222 00:12:19,116 --> 00:12:22,236 Speaker 1: of one point three six, behind only the University of 223 00:12:22,276 --> 00:12:25,876 Speaker 1: Florida and the big schools in the University of California system, 224 00:12:26,316 --> 00:12:29,236 Speaker 1: it is the most open and accessible private school in 225 00:12:29,276 --> 00:12:33,756 Speaker 1: the land. Boden is fifty first at one point zero five, 226 00:12:34,316 --> 00:12:37,116 Speaker 1: just above average. If you want an example of a 227 00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:39,636 Speaker 1: school that does really badly in the New York Times Index, 228 00:12:40,156 --> 00:12:43,796 Speaker 1: New York University NYU is a point six y five, 229 00:12:44,116 --> 00:12:52,076 Speaker 1: which ranks it one hundred and fifty six, which is appalling. Now, 230 00:12:52,116 --> 00:12:54,716 Speaker 1: why does this matter? We don't want all schools to 231 00:12:54,756 --> 00:12:57,236 Speaker 1: be the same. What's wrong with a system where one 232 00:12:57,276 --> 00:13:00,996 Speaker 1: school spends its marginal dollar on gathering the most interesting 233 00:13:01,036 --> 00:13:04,876 Speaker 1: and diverse group of undergraduates possible, and then another school 234 00:13:05,036 --> 00:13:09,516 Speaker 1: spends its marginal dollar on artisanal cheese. It shouldn't matter, right, 235 00:13:10,276 --> 00:13:12,356 Speaker 1: But if you dig into the way the university system 236 00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:15,236 Speaker 1: works in the United States, you discover that it matters 237 00:13:15,276 --> 00:13:24,116 Speaker 1: a lot. Boden and Vassar are connected. I'm back at Vassar. 238 00:13:24,796 --> 00:13:27,116 Speaker 1: I'm sitting in a small conference room in the main 239 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:31,036 Speaker 1: administration building. In front of me is Robert Walton, Vassar's 240 00:13:31,076 --> 00:13:34,236 Speaker 1: vice president of finance. Vasser might be the home of 241 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:37,276 Speaker 1: the edgy and the tattooed, but that's not Robert Walton. 242 00:13:37,756 --> 00:13:41,596 Speaker 1: He's a numbers guy, white hair, carefully trim beard. He's 243 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:43,796 Speaker 1: got the school's budget open in front of him. 244 00:13:44,236 --> 00:13:46,836 Speaker 8: So if we look at our total budget sort of 245 00:13:47,036 --> 00:13:49,436 Speaker 8: what we actually spend, it's about one hundred and sirventy 246 00:13:49,436 --> 00:13:52,836 Speaker 8: five million dollars. And if you think about it in 247 00:13:52,956 --> 00:13:56,556 Speaker 8: just big groups, about two thirds of that are fees 248 00:13:56,636 --> 00:13:59,356 Speaker 8: that we collect from different sources, and about a one 249 00:13:59,436 --> 00:14:02,196 Speaker 8: third of that budget comes from the endowment. 250 00:14:02,596 --> 00:14:06,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, now the tuition bucket. How does that break down? 251 00:14:07,116 --> 00:14:09,556 Speaker 8: You know, we are like many schools like we have 252 00:14:09,636 --> 00:14:14,076 Speaker 8: sort of a barbell effect. That's a slightly inelegant metaphor, 253 00:14:14,156 --> 00:14:17,596 Speaker 8: but it works. We tend to have a grouping at 254 00:14:17,596 --> 00:14:20,196 Speaker 8: each end, those who have a full ability to pay 255 00:14:20,236 --> 00:14:22,436 Speaker 8: and those who have low ability to pay. 256 00:14:23,476 --> 00:14:27,036 Speaker 1: The math looks like this. There are two four hundred 257 00:14:27,036 --> 00:14:30,996 Speaker 1: and fifty undergraduates Advassor. A thousand of them are on 258 00:14:31,036 --> 00:14:33,876 Speaker 1: the wealthy end of the barbell. They pay full tuition 259 00:14:34,196 --> 00:14:37,116 Speaker 1: or close to it. That comes to sixty million dollars 260 00:14:37,116 --> 00:14:39,956 Speaker 1: a year in revenue. The rest of the students at 261 00:14:39,996 --> 00:14:42,676 Speaker 1: the other end of the barbell pay about half that much. 262 00:14:43,436 --> 00:14:46,356 Speaker 1: They're the ones receiving some kind of financial aid. There's 263 00:14:46,476 --> 00:14:49,156 Speaker 1: way more of them, but they contribute much less to 264 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:52,156 Speaker 1: the bottom line. So Vassor makes up for that lost 265 00:14:52,196 --> 00:14:56,116 Speaker 1: revenue with money drawn from the endowment. I've grossly simplified 266 00:14:56,156 --> 00:14:58,716 Speaker 1: matters to the point where if Robert Walton hears this, 267 00:14:58,956 --> 00:15:02,596 Speaker 1: he'll cringe. But that's basically how the finances at Vassor work. 268 00:15:02,756 --> 00:15:06,556 Speaker 1: A couple of questions before you went, you made this shift, 269 00:15:06,596 --> 00:15:08,916 Speaker 1: which was what roughly ten. 270 00:15:08,876 --> 00:15:12,156 Speaker 6: Years ago, roughly two thousand and seven. It happened mid 271 00:15:12,236 --> 00:15:13,356 Speaker 6: year sort of so so hard. 272 00:15:13,556 --> 00:15:17,476 Speaker 1: That's Marian Begemann, Vassar's head of strategic planning. She's sitting 273 00:15:17,516 --> 00:15:21,076 Speaker 1: next to Walton formal business suit. What would your percentage 274 00:15:21,116 --> 00:15:24,636 Speaker 1: of full pay have been back then? In the earlier era, roughly. 275 00:15:24,316 --> 00:15:28,756 Speaker 7: We were around eighty, no, seventy five to eighty let's. 276 00:15:28,516 --> 00:15:31,676 Speaker 1: Say, seventy five to eighty percent of students paid full 277 00:15:31,716 --> 00:15:35,836 Speaker 1: tuition back then. This is an important point. The Barbelle 278 00:15:35,916 --> 00:15:38,596 Speaker 1: used to be heavily weighted on the high full paying 279 00:15:38,716 --> 00:15:41,956 Speaker 1: end and have almost nothing on the other end. When 280 00:15:41,996 --> 00:15:46,476 Speaker 1: President Hill transforms Vassar a decade ago, she basically switches that. 281 00:15:47,356 --> 00:15:50,876 Speaker 1: She replaces hundreds of full paying students with students who 282 00:15:50,956 --> 00:15:53,876 Speaker 1: pay very little. As a result, Vassar goes from a 283 00:15:53,876 --> 00:15:57,836 Speaker 1: place that quite comfortably supported itself on tuition revenue to 284 00:15:57,916 --> 00:16:00,276 Speaker 1: a place that has to rely really heavily on its 285 00:16:00,396 --> 00:16:04,196 Speaker 1: endowment to make the numbers work. Now, Vassar is wealthy 286 00:16:04,276 --> 00:16:07,436 Speaker 1: enough to pull that off. It all adds up, but barely. 287 00:16:08,156 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 1: They have no wiggle room. So the one thousand kids 288 00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:16,236 Speaker 1: who pay full tuition Vasser needs every single one. Without them, 289 00:16:16,476 --> 00:16:20,356 Speaker 1: everything falls apart financially. I asked Walton, what would happen 290 00:16:20,556 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 1: if the number of full paying students dropped? If even 291 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:26,236 Speaker 1: fifty of that one thousand went elsewhere. 292 00:16:25,916 --> 00:16:27,956 Speaker 8: That would be bad. That would be bad. 293 00:16:29,956 --> 00:16:37,476 Speaker 1: No wiggle room. Okay, now about the endowment once again. 294 00:16:37,556 --> 00:16:41,596 Speaker 1: Boden College is a good comparison. Boden starts twenty fifteen 295 00:16:41,676 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 1: with an endowment of one point four billion dollars. They 296 00:16:44,836 --> 00:16:47,356 Speaker 1: make a healthy return on that, which they divide up. 297 00:16:47,876 --> 00:16:49,996 Speaker 1: A quarter of it goes to pay for financial aid, 298 00:16:50,356 --> 00:16:53,636 Speaker 1: three quarters of it goes back into the endowment. That 299 00:16:53,756 --> 00:16:57,396 Speaker 1: three quarters incidentally comes to one hundred and twenty million dollars. 300 00:16:57,836 --> 00:17:00,196 Speaker 1: So to put it another way, Boden had one hundred 301 00:17:00,236 --> 00:17:03,436 Speaker 1: and twenty million dollar cushion last year. What I've just 302 00:17:03,476 --> 00:17:07,716 Speaker 1: described explains how endowments et elite universities keep getting bigger 303 00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:11,516 Speaker 1: and bigger. They earn way more on their endowment every 304 00:17:11,556 --> 00:17:15,116 Speaker 1: year than they need to balance the books. This is 305 00:17:15,156 --> 00:17:17,916 Speaker 1: a bit of an aside, but here's a really extreme 306 00:17:17,956 --> 00:17:22,356 Speaker 1: example of the endowment cushion. Princeton. They start twenty fourteen 307 00:17:22,436 --> 00:17:25,916 Speaker 1: with twenty point six billion dollars in the bank. Let 308 00:17:25,956 --> 00:17:29,956 Speaker 1: me repeat that, twenty point six billion dollars in the bank. 309 00:17:30,596 --> 00:17:33,876 Speaker 1: They make two point one billion on their investments over 310 00:17:33,876 --> 00:17:36,796 Speaker 1: the course of the year. After they've covered their costs 311 00:17:36,916 --> 00:17:39,756 Speaker 1: and paid for all their financial aid, they had seven 312 00:17:39,916 --> 00:17:43,036 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars left over, and after you add in 313 00:17:43,156 --> 00:17:45,836 Speaker 1: all the other money they raised, Princeton ends the year 314 00:17:46,036 --> 00:17:49,436 Speaker 1: with an endowment of twenty two point seven billion dollars. 315 00:17:49,716 --> 00:17:54,036 Speaker 1: Princeton is a perpetual motion cash machine. There is literally 316 00:17:54,276 --> 00:17:57,756 Speaker 1: no way they can ever run out of money. If 317 00:17:57,756 --> 00:18:01,316 Speaker 1: they wanted to build a half a billion dollar dormitory 318 00:18:01,596 --> 00:18:06,756 Speaker 1: with marble staircases, mahogany floors, and solid gold bathroom fixtures, 319 00:18:06,916 --> 00:18:09,036 Speaker 1: they could pay for it aut of petty cash and 320 00:18:09,236 --> 00:18:16,076 Speaker 1: still bank two hundred million dollars. That's wiggle room. By 321 00:18:16,116 --> 00:18:18,996 Speaker 1: the way, given that fact, you might wonder why anyone 322 00:18:19,036 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 1: would ever give money to Princeton. Good question. I have 323 00:18:23,156 --> 00:18:26,356 Speaker 1: way more to say about this subject. That's what next 324 00:18:26,396 --> 00:18:29,756 Speaker 1: week's episode is about. But let's go back to Vassar. 325 00:18:32,116 --> 00:18:36,116 Speaker 1: Things are a lot more complicated there. They have about 326 00:18:36,156 --> 00:18:39,116 Speaker 1: a billion dollars in their endowment. That's less than Boden, 327 00:18:39,876 --> 00:18:42,396 Speaker 1: but for Vassor. To cover their expenses, they need to 328 00:18:42,436 --> 00:18:46,316 Speaker 1: take out significantly more from their endowment than Boden does, 329 00:18:46,596 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 1: so they don't have the same kind of cushion. Last year, 330 00:18:49,956 --> 00:18:52,316 Speaker 1: In fact, Vassar had a bad year and they ended 331 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:55,556 Speaker 1: up withdrawing more than they earned. You can't keep doing 332 00:18:55,596 --> 00:18:58,316 Speaker 1: that year in and year out and survive as an institution. 333 00:18:59,236 --> 00:19:03,996 Speaker 1: No wiggle room. So what are Vassor's other options. Well, 334 00:19:04,316 --> 00:19:07,276 Speaker 1: they could get smaller. One of the reasons Boden is 335 00:19:07,316 --> 00:19:09,316 Speaker 1: in such better shape is that Boden has a only 336 00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:12,876 Speaker 1: eighteen hundred students. Vassar is more than a third larger. 337 00:19:13,236 --> 00:19:16,036 Speaker 1: If Vasser were boded in size, then suddenly they have 338 00:19:16,156 --> 00:19:19,636 Speaker 1: six hundred and fifty fewer students to subsidize with their endowment. 339 00:19:20,036 --> 00:19:23,756 Speaker 1: If I said to you, completely hypothetically, I want you 340 00:19:23,796 --> 00:19:26,516 Speaker 1: to run this college in such a way as to 341 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:31,796 Speaker 1: maximize the amount of financial resources available, would you shrink 342 00:19:31,836 --> 00:19:33,476 Speaker 1: the student body? 343 00:19:33,916 --> 00:19:36,076 Speaker 8: In a perfect world, that would be the technique I 344 00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:36,716 Speaker 8: would prefer. 345 00:19:37,036 --> 00:19:40,556 Speaker 1: That's Vassar's VP Robert Walton. Again Note that he says 346 00:19:40,796 --> 00:19:43,916 Speaker 1: in a perfect world, but of course that's the last 347 00:19:43,916 --> 00:19:47,196 Speaker 1: thing Vasser would ever do. It would be totally self defeating. 348 00:19:47,636 --> 00:19:51,116 Speaker 1: The whole point of Catherine Hill's transformation of Vasser was 349 00:19:51,156 --> 00:19:54,196 Speaker 1: to try and educate as many poor smart kids as possible, 350 00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:58,156 Speaker 1: because America has a huge problem with not providing opportunity 351 00:19:58,196 --> 00:20:01,596 Speaker 1: for poor smart kids. If you cut six hundred and 352 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:03,996 Speaker 1: fifty spots, then you're part of the problem. 353 00:20:03,996 --> 00:20:08,556 Speaker 8: Again, I'm a fiscal conservative, but she's convinced me. We 354 00:20:08,596 --> 00:20:11,796 Speaker 8: don't pay any taxes in terms of to the fads 355 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:15,116 Speaker 8: of the states, so we are a tax subsidized entity. 356 00:20:15,836 --> 00:20:19,116 Speaker 8: So one would logically conclude then if you have a 357 00:20:19,196 --> 00:20:21,756 Speaker 8: large endowment, you really have an obligation to provide a 358 00:20:21,836 --> 00:20:24,436 Speaker 8: public good, not just to educate the rich. 359 00:20:25,036 --> 00:20:29,036 Speaker 1: This is something people always forget. Universities don't pay taxes. 360 00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:33,756 Speaker 1: We subsidize them. You and I. When Princeton makes that 361 00:20:33,836 --> 00:20:37,156 Speaker 1: two point four billion dollars return on their endowment, they 362 00:20:37,196 --> 00:20:39,596 Speaker 1: don't pay a dime of capital gains taxes on it. 363 00:20:40,036 --> 00:20:43,956 Speaker 1: And Walton's pointing out something really really crucial, which is 364 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:46,836 Speaker 1: that if you get that kind of subsidy from society, 365 00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:50,556 Speaker 1: you're supposed to give back. Cutting six hundred and fifty 366 00:20:50,556 --> 00:20:54,396 Speaker 1: spots is not giving back. All right, how about this 367 00:20:54,796 --> 00:20:59,796 Speaker 1: cut back on faculty, bigger classes. No no, no, that 368 00:20:59,876 --> 00:21:03,356 Speaker 1: also defeats the purpose. The whole point of the Vasser 369 00:21:03,396 --> 00:21:06,876 Speaker 1: experiment is to give students of all backgrounds the best 370 00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:10,916 Speaker 1: possible education. If you make the education worse in order 371 00:21:10,956 --> 00:21:12,956 Speaker 1: to pay for the students who need a good education, 372 00:21:13,396 --> 00:21:15,956 Speaker 1: then you're right back where you started from. The point 373 00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:19,316 Speaker 1: of Vasser is that the best education comes when you 374 00:21:19,436 --> 00:21:23,196 Speaker 1: mix students from all backgrounds. When the child of an 375 00:21:23,196 --> 00:21:26,076 Speaker 1: investment banker sits in class next to the child of 376 00:21:26,116 --> 00:21:29,036 Speaker 1: a janitor, the two of them have a learning experience 377 00:21:29,236 --> 00:21:32,236 Speaker 1: that they could not have amongst people just like themselves. 378 00:21:32,876 --> 00:21:35,756 Speaker 1: That's what they're trying to protect. So what do you 379 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:38,196 Speaker 1: do if you're Vassar and you're trying to protect that 380 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:42,156 Speaker 1: idea of what an education is. You have only one option. 381 00:21:42,916 --> 00:21:46,156 Speaker 1: You tighten your belt as tight as you can. You 382 00:21:46,236 --> 00:21:48,556 Speaker 1: don't do anything extravagant. 383 00:21:48,956 --> 00:21:50,876 Speaker 8: I worked with a college at one time, it was 384 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:53,116 Speaker 8: sure going name that opened a new residence hall in 385 00:21:53,156 --> 00:21:56,596 Speaker 8: the last five years that was all singles that had 386 00:21:56,636 --> 00:21:57,636 Speaker 8: double beds. 387 00:21:58,156 --> 00:22:00,556 Speaker 1: Basically, the dorm was a high end hotel. 388 00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:03,276 Speaker 8: You know, there are these amenities that some schools do 389 00:22:03,316 --> 00:22:05,156 Speaker 8: that are just kind of crazy and over the top. 390 00:22:05,396 --> 00:22:08,516 Speaker 8: But they do all kinds of things. You know, they 391 00:22:08,556 --> 00:22:12,676 Speaker 8: have more money for speaker series than we do. We 392 00:22:12,756 --> 00:22:14,876 Speaker 8: can't pay Bill Clinton to come and speak for three 393 00:22:14,956 --> 00:22:18,276 Speaker 8: hundred thousand that more. Prior institution did things like that. 394 00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:23,836 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton the ultimate college amenity. The problem with belt tightening, though, 395 00:22:24,116 --> 00:22:27,316 Speaker 1: is attracting those one thousand full pay students, the ones 396 00:22:27,316 --> 00:22:31,236 Speaker 1: whose money Vassar desperately needs. Who are they They're the 397 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:35,436 Speaker 1: children of professionals, upper middle class and upper class Manhattan, 398 00:22:35,556 --> 00:22:39,876 Speaker 1: Beverly Hills, Boston, San Francisco. They grew up privileged. They 399 00:22:39,876 --> 00:22:44,316 Speaker 1: have certain expectations about lifestyle. Those amenities that Bob Walton 400 00:22:44,316 --> 00:22:47,036 Speaker 1: says are kind of crazy and over the top. That's 401 00:22:47,076 --> 00:22:50,596 Speaker 1: what these kids are used to. So this is what 402 00:22:50,716 --> 00:22:54,276 Speaker 1: keeps Catherine Hill up at night. How can she keep 403 00:22:54,316 --> 00:22:57,676 Speaker 1: those wealthy kids coming to Vassar if she can't provide 404 00:22:57,676 --> 00:22:59,476 Speaker 1: them with the lifestyle that they're used to. 405 00:22:59,956 --> 00:23:03,156 Speaker 6: We are operating in an economy right now where income 406 00:23:03,196 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 6: and equality has increased over the last thirty to forty years, 407 00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:11,996 Speaker 6: So we are looking to attract talented students from high 408 00:23:12,036 --> 00:23:15,196 Speaker 6: income families. These are kids who have grown up with 409 00:23:15,356 --> 00:23:17,756 Speaker 6: their own bedroom and their own bathroom and when they 410 00:23:17,796 --> 00:23:21,356 Speaker 6: come looking at college campuses, those are some of the 411 00:23:21,356 --> 00:23:22,916 Speaker 6: things that the families are looking for. 412 00:23:23,476 --> 00:23:26,316 Speaker 1: Rasser asks those kids to do without some of the 413 00:23:26,356 --> 00:23:29,076 Speaker 1: luxuries they were raised with, and that's a hard sell. 414 00:23:31,636 --> 00:23:33,956 Speaker 6: Every time another school with which we compete makes a 415 00:23:33,956 --> 00:23:37,876 Speaker 6: different decision and doesn't spend it on financial aid, then 416 00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:39,756 Speaker 6: it puts us in the position of being in a 417 00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 6: tougher position to compete for the full pay students. 418 00:23:44,196 --> 00:23:47,556 Speaker 1: Oh, I see. You mean if another school spends lesson 419 00:23:47,836 --> 00:23:51,636 Speaker 1: builds a fancier X and you don't have the fancy X. 420 00:23:52,556 --> 00:23:57,716 Speaker 6: Yeah, then they're gonna take some of those kids away 421 00:23:57,716 --> 00:23:59,636 Speaker 6: from us who want the fancy X. 422 00:24:01,316 --> 00:24:04,356 Speaker 1: Hill didn't name any names, but you know who she's 423 00:24:04,396 --> 00:24:07,876 Speaker 1: talking about. She's talking about Boden and the kids she 424 00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:11,076 Speaker 1: worries that Boden will take away are the kids from 425 00:24:11,076 --> 00:24:13,996 Speaker 1: Beverly Hills in Manhattan who grew up on beautifully ripe 426 00:24:14,036 --> 00:24:18,876 Speaker 1: avocados and freshly cut rosemary. Robert Walton serves on something 427 00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:22,156 Speaker 1: called the Parents Advisory Committee at Vassar, which is basically 428 00:24:22,236 --> 00:24:24,156 Speaker 1: the parents of the rich kids, and he hears it 429 00:24:24,196 --> 00:24:24,756 Speaker 1: all the time. 430 00:24:25,236 --> 00:24:27,076 Speaker 8: They come and that you know they want to talk 431 00:24:27,116 --> 00:24:30,436 Speaker 8: to the senior officers about you know, their observations. You know, 432 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:33,036 Speaker 8: it's sort of a you know, tough love kind of meeting. 433 00:24:33,796 --> 00:24:36,876 Speaker 8: They always ask about food, They always ask about housing, 434 00:24:36,876 --> 00:24:37,636 Speaker 8: They always you. 435 00:24:37,636 --> 00:24:39,716 Speaker 1: Know, they what do they say when they bring up food? 436 00:24:39,716 --> 00:24:40,956 Speaker 1: Do they complain about food or that? 437 00:24:41,156 --> 00:24:44,476 Speaker 8: Basically, and so my reaction is, we need to make 438 00:24:44,476 --> 00:24:46,836 Speaker 8: food better. And we actually aren't going to make food better. 439 00:24:46,836 --> 00:24:48,676 Speaker 8: But if food is really important to you, and if 440 00:24:48,716 --> 00:24:51,276 Speaker 8: housing is really important to you, don't come to vasser 441 00:24:51,876 --> 00:24:53,876 Speaker 8: That's not what we focus on. That's just not what 442 00:24:53,876 --> 00:24:57,716 Speaker 8: we're into. Yeah, that's you know, and no apologies for that. 443 00:24:57,876 --> 00:24:59,476 Speaker 8: I mean, that's just not what we do. 444 00:25:04,756 --> 00:25:06,996 Speaker 1: This is why I said at the beginning that food 445 00:25:07,236 --> 00:25:10,356 Speaker 1: is actually a moral issue, because how long do you 446 00:25:10,396 --> 00:25:13,676 Speaker 1: think Vassar can continue to do this, to say to 447 00:25:13,756 --> 00:25:17,436 Speaker 1: parents and students, if food is really that important to you, 448 00:25:17,476 --> 00:25:22,196 Speaker 1: go somewhere else. Those kids come to Vassar for a 449 00:25:22,236 --> 00:25:25,916 Speaker 1: campus visit and eat a soggy piece of pizza. Then 450 00:25:25,956 --> 00:25:28,836 Speaker 1: they go to Boden where Chef Cardone is the god 451 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:32,356 Speaker 1: of the dining hall. He's got amazing resources, a bigger 452 00:25:32,436 --> 00:25:36,236 Speaker 1: endowmented six hundred and fifty fewer students, half as many 453 00:25:36,316 --> 00:25:40,236 Speaker 1: kids on pelgrants and every day he's taking it up 454 00:25:40,236 --> 00:25:43,996 Speaker 1: a notch in a kitchen. How long can Soggi pizza 455 00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:50,316 Speaker 1: hold up against Ken Cardon. When my producer Jacob was 456 00:25:50,356 --> 00:25:54,036 Speaker 1: on his culinary investigation at Boden, the students talked about 457 00:25:54,076 --> 00:25:57,196 Speaker 1: the food of their school like they were in Paris. 458 00:25:57,036 --> 00:25:59,316 Speaker 9: In the beginning of the year. That ice cream didn't 459 00:25:59,396 --> 00:26:02,076 Speaker 9: really taste that well, like it was like kind of watery, 460 00:26:02,356 --> 00:26:05,036 Speaker 9: and so I know someone wrote a complaint card, like guys, 461 00:26:05,596 --> 00:26:07,756 Speaker 9: and then now it's like so much better, like they 462 00:26:07,796 --> 00:26:08,356 Speaker 9: just fixed it. 463 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:11,636 Speaker 4: I've heard good things about the dessert. Is it good? 464 00:26:11,836 --> 00:26:12,916 Speaker 1: How do you compete with this? 465 00:26:13,596 --> 00:26:14,476 Speaker 4: On your first time campus? 466 00:26:14,516 --> 00:26:18,036 Speaker 10: There's this lobster bake where every student on campus has 467 00:26:18,036 --> 00:26:19,716 Speaker 10: the choice of having a lobster for dinner or a 468 00:26:19,756 --> 00:26:23,276 Speaker 10: steak or a vegetarian option. It's really phenomenal. 469 00:26:23,796 --> 00:26:26,476 Speaker 3: If I like to ask you, maybe like a respective 470 00:26:26,476 --> 00:26:28,196 Speaker 3: student was coming to campus and they were asked about 471 00:26:28,196 --> 00:26:30,636 Speaker 3: the food, what would be your like your one sentence 472 00:26:30,676 --> 00:26:33,396 Speaker 3: pitch or how would you describe it? 473 00:26:33,396 --> 00:26:35,636 Speaker 10: It's sort of indescribable in the way that you can't 474 00:26:35,916 --> 00:26:38,516 Speaker 10: explain to someone how it's always changing, and it's always fresh, 475 00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:40,596 Speaker 10: and it's always different. It pushes you to try new things, 476 00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:42,836 Speaker 10: which is I think what college is all about, which 477 00:26:42,836 --> 00:26:45,356 Speaker 10: is experimenting and reaching out to new worlds. And you 478 00:26:45,396 --> 00:26:46,996 Speaker 10: know the fact that the food here helps you do 479 00:26:47,036 --> 00:26:48,476 Speaker 10: that as well is incredible. 480 00:26:49,676 --> 00:26:52,036 Speaker 1: I cannot get over how excited this kid is about 481 00:26:52,036 --> 00:26:54,356 Speaker 1: the food of bud. Do you think he talks this 482 00:26:54,396 --> 00:26:55,636 Speaker 1: way about his professors? 483 00:26:56,516 --> 00:26:58,236 Speaker 3: Oh if you tried things that like you wouldn't have 484 00:26:58,236 --> 00:27:01,836 Speaker 3: tried otherwise, Like what kind of meals or dishes? 485 00:27:02,596 --> 00:27:06,556 Speaker 10: Oh wow, the other night had an egg plant parmesan pancake. 486 00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:08,276 Speaker 10: You know, I don't think I could have even told 487 00:27:08,276 --> 00:27:10,436 Speaker 10: you that was a real thing until I had it. 488 00:27:10,436 --> 00:27:11,956 Speaker 10: You know, I walked past it didn't travel, and I 489 00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:14,436 Speaker 10: went like the might as well, and it was phenomenon. 490 00:27:14,396 --> 00:27:19,116 Speaker 1: I have sex, actually eggplant parmerson pancake. I mean, this 491 00:27:19,236 --> 00:27:23,356 Speaker 1: is completely absurd. This is everything that's wrong with American colleges. 492 00:27:23,996 --> 00:27:26,476 Speaker 4: We had venison here during deer season. 493 00:27:27,076 --> 00:27:29,876 Speaker 10: It was really just fresh, locally sourced, different kinds of 494 00:27:29,916 --> 00:27:31,756 Speaker 10: meats that I would never expect to see in a 495 00:27:31,796 --> 00:27:32,836 Speaker 10: college dining hall. 496 00:27:34,276 --> 00:27:37,916 Speaker 1: There's only one solution. If you're looking at liberal arts colleges. 497 00:27:38,476 --> 00:27:41,956 Speaker 1: Don't go to Boden. Don't let your kids go to Boden. 498 00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:45,836 Speaker 1: Don't let your friends go to Boden. Don't give money 499 00:27:45,876 --> 00:27:48,476 Speaker 1: to Boden or to any other school that serves amazing 500 00:27:48,476 --> 00:27:51,756 Speaker 1: food in its dining home. Because every time you support 501 00:27:51,756 --> 00:27:54,836 Speaker 1: a school that spends its money on amazing food, every 502 00:27:54,876 --> 00:27:57,996 Speaker 1: time you cast a vote in favor of eggplant parmesan 503 00:27:58,196 --> 00:28:02,476 Speaker 1: pancakes and lobster bakes and venison during deer season, you're 504 00:28:02,516 --> 00:28:05,996 Speaker 1: making it harder and harder for someone like Catherine Hill 505 00:28:06,196 --> 00:28:10,316 Speaker 1: to create opportunities for poor kids. Suck it up and 506 00:28:10,396 --> 00:28:13,436 Speaker 1: go to Vassar. Send a message to the Bodons of 507 00:28:13,476 --> 00:28:15,516 Speaker 1: the world about what really matters. 508 00:28:15,756 --> 00:28:19,436 Speaker 7: Fresh fruit is atrocious. Sometimes we get bananas, and then 509 00:28:19,476 --> 00:28:23,396 Speaker 7: sometimes we get strawberries or grapes, but those are like 510 00:28:23,956 --> 00:28:25,876 Speaker 7: strawberries and grapes are like those are a big deal. 511 00:28:25,956 --> 00:28:28,436 Speaker 7: Like you go steal like five cups of. 512 00:28:28,396 --> 00:28:30,756 Speaker 3: That, so you pocket them and run out with your 513 00:28:30,756 --> 00:28:32,356 Speaker 3: pockets full of Absolutely. 514 00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:33,476 Speaker 7: Absolutely, I'm not joking. 515 00:28:34,556 --> 00:28:38,196 Speaker 1: This is Amanda again, the Vassar sophomore who complained about 516 00:28:38,196 --> 00:28:43,396 Speaker 1: the guacamal Amanda, the spoiled Californian, as she described herself. 517 00:28:43,996 --> 00:28:46,636 Speaker 1: But I will say this for Amanda. She gets it, 518 00:28:47,196 --> 00:28:51,956 Speaker 1: she understands what's at stake. Atrocious fresh fruit is a 519 00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 1: small price to pay for a little social justice. 520 00:28:56,796 --> 00:28:59,676 Speaker 7: I still complain regularly about the food and whatnot, but 521 00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:02,276 Speaker 7: I just feel much better knowing that that money's going 522 00:29:02,276 --> 00:29:05,316 Speaker 7: towards something useful. I would much prefer that our school'll 523 00:29:05,316 --> 00:29:07,756 Speaker 7: be giving money to that than trying to make our 524 00:29:07,836 --> 00:29:10,356 Speaker 7: food better. You know, first case scenario, you get the 525 00:29:10,356 --> 00:29:12,036 Speaker 7: minimum meal plan and you can eat out. 526 00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:12,956 Speaker 4: It's not a big deal. 527 00:29:26,796 --> 00:29:29,876 Speaker 1: You've been listening to Revisionist History. If you like what 528 00:29:29,996 --> 00:29:32,916 Speaker 1: you've heard, do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. 529 00:29:33,836 --> 00:29:36,636 Speaker 1: You can get more information about this and other episodes 530 00:29:36,996 --> 00:29:41,556 Speaker 1: at Revisionististory dot com or on your favorite podcast app. 531 00:29:42,436 --> 00:29:45,276 Speaker 1: Our show is produced by me La Belle, Roxanne Scott, 532 00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:50,076 Speaker 1: and Jacob Smith. Our editor is Julia Barton. Music is 533 00:29:50,076 --> 00:29:54,956 Speaker 1: composed by Luis Guerra and Taka Yasuzawa. Flon Williams is 534 00:29:54,996 --> 00:30:00,156 Speaker 1: our engineer, fact checker Michelle Siraka, and the Panoply management 535 00:30:00,236 --> 00:30:06,636 Speaker 1: team Laura Mayer, Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberg. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. 536 00:30:09,316 --> 00:30:12,396 Speaker 7: I I think was beer completed by the y