Speaker 1: Hi, listeners, welcome back. I'm Nadrick lover to WIB and
Speaker 1: you need to hear this. In relationships, we don't just
Speaker 1: get into the relationship with the partner that we're choosing.
Speaker 1: We also become attached to or in relationship with their
Speaker 1: families in some way. When they come from families that
Speaker 1: we enjoy, they have those sisters that we love, or
Speaker 1: they have these wonderful family events, or even them having
Speaker 1: some things that we wish we had in our own families,
Speaker 1: it can be lovely. However, when we get into relationships
Speaker 1: with people who have a level of dysfunction that we
Speaker 1: are not even used to, or if there are cultural differences,
Speaker 1: if there's enabling and just these things that we don't
Speaker 1: want to put up with, it can create a lot
Speaker 1: of toxicity and our relationship with our partners, even if
Speaker 1: it doesn't have anything to do with them. Where people
Speaker 1: comes from it can matter. It doesn't always have to
Speaker 1: if they're aware of it and they want to change it.
Speaker 1: But when you get into a relationship with a person,
Speaker 1: you get into a relationship with their culture. And sometimes
Speaker 1: it's not just their ethnic culture. It could just be
Speaker 1: their family culture, which can be unique based on who
Speaker 1: those folks are and how things have been going in
Speaker 1: their families. So for today, we have a caller who
Speaker 1: is very concerned about her relationship and the cultural impact
Speaker 1: of her relationship with her partner. So this is a
Speaker 1: pretty interesting letter, so let's get into it.
Speaker 2: Hi, Doctor Tawab, my name is Jocelyn. I'm not married,
Speaker 2: but I have been in a relationship for the past
Speaker 2: five years, and with this person, I became pregnant and
Speaker 2: now have a three year old son. We were both
Speaker 2: in our thirties and have been dating for a year
Speaker 2: and a half. When we became pregnant, the relationship had
Speaker 2: been rocky, but we decided to keep the pregnancy very intentionally.
Speaker 2: We were doing so well right before and right after
Speaker 2: the baby was born, but family issues and domestic issues
Speaker 2: became so dramatic that I have recently decided to leave
Speaker 2: the relationship, which, while not legally taking place, amounts to
Speaker 2: a divorce or feels like a divorce. We are having
Speaker 2: custody conversations and because I'm going to be a co
Speaker 2: parent with this person and know them for the rest
Speaker 2: of my life, I'm really in the trenches of trying
Speaker 2: to understand what happened and why it happened, and I
Speaker 2: have a lot of confusion. This is a person who
Speaker 2: was raised by immigrants. They are Indian American, and their
Speaker 2: parents arranged marriage was very unhappy and very traditional in
Speaker 2: terms of the wife being responsible for all of the
Speaker 2: cooking and cleaning, and even my partner, as a male
Speaker 2: in that household, didn't have to do any kind of
Speaker 2: domestic chores. And so even when I met him in
Speaker 2: his thirties, this person, you know, does not cook, is
Speaker 2: very messy, like tends towards clutter, as is the family
Speaker 2: of origin home, but really didn't clean very much, and
Speaker 2: honestly I didn't think much of that, and then it
Speaker 2: once the baby came, it was really staring me in
Speaker 2: the face because I, you know, very typically I found
Speaker 2: so many stories of this online. Felt really over whelmed
Speaker 2: having to do the vast majority of not all, of
Speaker 2: the domestic work around the baby and the household, and
Speaker 2: trying to get him involved in that work and getting
Speaker 2: him to understand why it was so stressful for me
Speaker 2: to come home to just a really messy house, or
Speaker 2: to have clutter everywhere, or to wake up in the
Speaker 2: morning to a sink full of dishes, or have to
Speaker 2: clean the whole kitchen before I start cooking dinner when
Speaker 2: I'm the only person in the house that cooks or
Speaker 2: is thinking about dinner, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I could go
Speaker 2: on and on. Became a really big issue in our
Speaker 2: relationship and then his family as well. The family in
Speaker 2: addition to there being cultural differences, racial differences. I identify
Speaker 2: as Latina and I speak Spanish and have Puerto Rican
Speaker 2: culture in my family, but I also am racially his family. Again,
Speaker 2: in addition to these very patriarchal gender lines and a
Speaker 2: lot of that patriarchy coming from Indian culture South Asian culture,
Speaker 2: there was also addiction in the family and very few boundaries.
Speaker 2: So my partner's mother, because she wasn't getting her emotional
Speaker 2: needs met from her arranged marriage, relied on him as
Speaker 2: a confidante from a very young age. I'm talking like
Speaker 2: eight nine years old. And the parents also enabled the
Speaker 2: younger brother, my partner's younger brother, who's an addict. And
Speaker 2: when I entered the picture, this family was really coming
Speaker 2: out of a decade of crisis where this person would
Speaker 2: go missing, they would overdose, and just crisis after crisis
Speaker 2: because of active addiction.
Speaker 1: What's striking to me is the before she starts to speak,
Speaker 1: I can hear the level of frustration, the level of resentment,
Speaker 1: the level of chaos that this situation has caused. One
Speaker 1: thing about us partnering with people as we do have
Speaker 1: to remember there is some impact or influence that the
Speaker 1: family of origin had on them. And as I'm listening
Speaker 1: to this, I'm hearing a new dating question popping out
Speaker 1: to me. You know, maybe not the first date or
Speaker 1: the tenth date, but certainly when we are thinking about
Speaker 1: having children with people, moving in, with people, going on vacation,
Speaker 1: anything of seriousness, perhaps there has to be some sort
Speaker 1: of conversation where we talk about, how do you think
Speaker 1: you were impacted by your family? What do you think
Speaker 1: those relationships look like. We need to have a better
Speaker 1: idea of what our partners think is happening in their relationships,
Speaker 1: because what I'm seeing is we can see the chaos
Speaker 1: and we may not recognize it until we're like intertwined
Speaker 1: and it is a part of our lives where we
Speaker 1: have children with these folks or we're married to these people,
Speaker 1: and we see this stuff.
Speaker 3: But is there a step.
Speaker 1: Before that where we can get an idea from the
Speaker 1: person who has been in it what they're seeing. If
Speaker 1: they say, oh, my family is great and everything is wonderful,
Speaker 1: and you show up to a barbecue and all you
Speaker 1: see is chaos, we can now understand, Oh, this person
Speaker 1: is also a part of this dynamic. They don't want
Speaker 1: to change anything because they're not even noticing some of
Speaker 1: these issues. Because what we're doing, and I'm saying, we're
Speaker 1: I've dated people and you walk in and you're like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh. Right, And when I'm saying walk in,
Speaker 1: you get into this relationship and you see the level
Speaker 1: of boundaries maybe your partner doesn't have, or you see
Speaker 1: this overbearing personality within you know, maybe one or both parents,
Speaker 1: or you see all of the sibling issues.
Speaker 3: You start to see this stuff.
Speaker 1: If you have some dating history, you have dated someone
Speaker 1: you know potentially.
Speaker 3: With these sort of issues.
Speaker 1: So hopefully you know you are beyond it, but if
Speaker 1: you are still in it, this is an opportunity for
Speaker 1: you to sort of think about perhaps some of these
Speaker 1: issues are really big problems for you but not a
Speaker 1: big problem for your partner. They can be used to
Speaker 1: this level of chaos. They may not see the need
Speaker 1: for anything to be different. And when you're stepping into
Speaker 1: someone's family, you may see these issues. You may have
Speaker 1: done the work. Heck, you're listening to this podcast. Heck,
Speaker 1: you're following my content.
Speaker 3: So you know what red flags are.
Speaker 1: You know what might be healthy and what might not
Speaker 1: be healthy. When they're in this culture of unhealthiness or
Speaker 1: these you know, interesting behaviors, they may not have a
Speaker 1: different viewpoint. And so you're seeing this stuff and you're like, Op,
Speaker 1: that's enabling up, that's codependency, up, that's addiction. Oh, my gosh,
Speaker 1: they're borrowing money and they're not paying it back. That's
Speaker 1: taking advantage of you. You see all of these things.
Speaker 1: But to them, guess what it is normal. This is normal.
Speaker 1: This is not anything to raise a flag about. They're like, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's just.
Speaker 3: How she is. Oh that's how that person is.
Speaker 1: Oh it's just by Bob, she doesn't mean anything by it.
Speaker 1: This is their normal. So when you are already in
Speaker 1: this situation or you're newly in a situation like this,
Speaker 1: I want you to remember this is their level of norm.
Speaker 1: You don't have to make it your level of normal functioning.
Speaker 3: You don't have.
Speaker 1: To tolerate certain things, and as we continue to listen,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about some ways in which you can shift
Speaker 1: as a partner or how you can show up in
Speaker 1: these relationships. You don't have to adopt the culture. You know,
Speaker 1: that's a choice to ignore some of these behaviors. You know,
Speaker 1: you may seem like, you know, the interesting party saying, hey,
Speaker 1: should we have alcohol here because there are four people
Speaker 1: who are coming who may not need to drink. You know,
Speaker 1: I can handle my stuff, but I also don't need it,
Speaker 1: So could this be an alcohol free event? That might be,
Speaker 1: you know, something that everybody sort of looks at, but
Speaker 1: it's also something that you can control in your house.
Speaker 1: The second thing here, you can notice problems, but you
Speaker 1: cannot change people. So noticing that people have issues with addiction,
Speaker 1: or noticing that there is some patriarchal gender line issues
Speaker 1: going on that is a problem, but it's also a
Speaker 1: problem that the other people may be unwilling to fix.
Speaker 1: So you can have a problem with their problem, but
Speaker 1: you cannot fix their problem. How do we let people
Speaker 1: know that we have some sort of issue with their
Speaker 1: issues that they're unaware of. You bring it back to
Speaker 1: the partnership. This is what's happening in our relationship. We
Speaker 1: don't need to talk about your relationship.
Speaker 3: With your mother and father.
Speaker 1: This story you told us from eighth grade, how your
Speaker 1: brother did this at the thing. These are the ways
Speaker 1: in which I'm having concerns about our relationships. I need
Speaker 1: help with unloading the dishwasher. The conversation is not about
Speaker 1: your dad never helped your mom unload dishes, so therefore
Speaker 1: you don't unload dishes. All in the men in your family,
Speaker 1: nobody is a dish unloader. We don't have that conversation.
Speaker 1: The conversation is around how the issues are showing up
Speaker 1: in your relationship with this person. I am having a
Speaker 1: direct issue with you around who is supposed to wash
Speaker 1: and fold close. This is what I need. When we're
Speaker 1: stating our issue with people, Please please please tell them
Speaker 1: the solution. Sometimes we're going to the people who are
Speaker 1: creating a really big problem. Oh my gosh, you never
Speaker 1: foel close.
Speaker 3: What do you want?
Speaker 1: I need you to help me fold close. You may
Speaker 1: need to go to step number two. After you fowl the.
Speaker 3: Close, can you put them in the drawer? Step number
Speaker 3: three when.
Speaker 1: You wash the clothes, I need you to use such
Speaker 1: and such detergent and such and such fabric softener and
Speaker 1: throw some dryer.
Speaker 3: But we have to be clear with people.
Speaker 1: Assuming that they know how to do these things, particularly
Speaker 1: when we know they don't have a family history of
Speaker 1: doing it, can be very unfortunate for our relationship.
Speaker 3: And highlighting all.
Speaker 1: Of the reasons that they're not doing something is not
Speaker 1: going to be particularly helpful. Keep it very tight and
Speaker 1: focused on your day today with this person, not their history,
Speaker 1: not their family history, not their great great grandfather. You
Speaker 1: know you come from a long line of this, and
Speaker 1: that's why people don't do that. That's great information for
Speaker 1: you to know, but it's not very helpful in an argument.
Speaker 3: What I need today.
Speaker 1: Is I don't care if your your grandmother didn't do it,
Speaker 1: or your great grandfather didn't do it. What I need
Speaker 1: from you is all of those other things those people
Speaker 1: And I understand a piece of this is cultural, but
Speaker 1: I am an and you don't have to say the
Speaker 1: culture part. But you are in the relationship with this person.
Speaker 1: These are the things that we need to work on
Speaker 1: in our relationship. Culture aside, these are the things that
Speaker 1: we're working on. We have now blended cultures and as
Speaker 1: a part of my culture. This is what could be
Speaker 1: hopeful for us, for us to be in a relationship.
Speaker 1: We'll get back to this call after our break.
Speaker 3: Let's keep listening.
Speaker 2: And when the baby came, I went from being the
Speaker 2: girlfriend to being the daughter in law and felt over
Speaker 2: time that essentially my partner was going to prioritize as
Speaker 2: family of origin, their drama, their cultural norms, their wishes
Speaker 2: ahead of my own. And I felt that we never
Speaker 2: formed our nuclear family of three. As much as I
Speaker 2: try to advocate for our nuclear family of three and say,
Speaker 2: until we have weekly family time as a family of three,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to schedule time for your parents to
Speaker 2: come and visit the child. We have to do it
Speaker 2: as a family first. And he really found that to
Speaker 2: be so offensive, and me not letting the child see
Speaker 2: the grandparents and the child being the one thing that
Speaker 2: makes these folks who have a really difficult family life happy.
Speaker 2: And obviously we all get satisfaction from seeing our parents
Speaker 2: happy because of a grand baby. But I came to
Speaker 2: feel like an employee. I came to feel like I
Speaker 2: was there to serve these elders, and I have the
Speaker 2: cultural value of respecting my elders, but these elders were
Speaker 2: enabling an adult addict. My child's grandfather is mistreating his wife,
Speaker 2: and the wife is a martyr who isn't standing up
Speaker 2: for herself and is having these emotionally messy codependent relationships
Speaker 2: with both of her sons. I'm feeling resentment towards her.
Speaker 2: It became untenable and I decided to leave the relationship,
Speaker 2: and I'm now dealing with the fallout of that, where
Speaker 2: I still have to be in relationship with these people
Speaker 2: who are going to be in my life forever, and
Speaker 2: because they aren't going to set boundaries or give the
Speaker 2: relationship any healthy structure, I'm going to have to provide
Speaker 2: that or I feel the proactive desire to take initiative
Speaker 2: and say this is how I need it to be,
Speaker 2: especially because now my instinct is coming from protecting my
Speaker 2: child in relationship with them, in addition to protecting myself
Speaker 2: in relationship with them.
Speaker 1: Resentment is really this all in one emotion. When I
Speaker 1: hear people talk about it, I get a sense of anger, hurt, sadness,
Speaker 1: and frustration wrapped up into one word. If it's not acknowledged,
Speaker 1: if it's not a process, if we're not actively working
Speaker 1: on it. It can eat away at us. It can
Speaker 1: really destroy our relationships with other people. It can ruin
Speaker 1: our compassion towards others because we're like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: When I think about folks who are in the midst
Speaker 1: of enabling behaviors that are unhealthy for other people, like
Speaker 1: you know, maybe like addiction, the compassionate part of me
Speaker 1: thinks about how hard it must be for them to
Speaker 1: not only watch someone suffer but not do anything about it,
Speaker 1: especially when it's their child. You know, I think about
Speaker 1: my kids doing something, even if they caused it. You know,
Speaker 1: they're running down the stairs fast, running down the stairs
Speaker 1: with their tablet, they fall down the stairs. I don't
Speaker 1: want to say to them, that's what you get. I'm
Speaker 1: still gonna be like, oh my gosh, are you okay.
Speaker 1: So even when a person causes their own pain, as
Speaker 1: a parent, we may have compassion towards that, right, like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Like, you're causing yourself this pain, But
Speaker 1: I still want to be here for you. I still
Speaker 1: want to love on you. And I think that's what
Speaker 1: enabling is. Like I know you're hurting yourself, I know
Speaker 1: that this is harmful for you. I still want you
Speaker 1: to be better. I still want to support you in this,
Speaker 1: and maybe the parent really feels like if I do
Speaker 1: enough helping, they can get out of this. Now we all,
Speaker 1: you know, we know that that's not typically how it works,
Speaker 1: but from a parent's perspective, the only way to be
Speaker 1: hopeful might be to enable this person, you know, with
Speaker 1: this condition, with this behavior, with these tendencies, and so
Speaker 1: there is a little bit of compassion and grace that
Speaker 1: could just be pushed over her way as a parent,
Speaker 1: because we don't lose the love for our children even
Speaker 1: if they're wrapped up in these behaviors where they're harming themselves.
Speaker 1: And you know, some parents we can be wise in
Speaker 1: how we offer our compassion, and sometimes we just have
Speaker 1: endless compassion to a point where it's actually harmful to
Speaker 1: the other person. So, yes, this is unwise compassion. However,
Speaker 1: it is compassion nonetheless, and compassion that perhaps you know
Speaker 1: from afar you don't understand. I think compassion from parent
Speaker 1: to child is different from you know, sibling to sibling
Speaker 1: or spouse to you know, brother in law. But you know,
Speaker 1: like those levels of the compassion sort of lesson, you know,
Speaker 1: with each relationship. You know, it's not a direct relationship.
Speaker 1: So I'm looking at the situation like this looks like
Speaker 1: something on TV and it looks like a mess. That's
Speaker 1: my level of attachment to it. And for the parent,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh my gosh, this is me in this situation,
Speaker 1: and this is how I need to help. So just
Speaker 1: consider that as you're saying she is, she is in
Speaker 1: this situation and it's really hard to respect her. It
Speaker 1: must be really hard to have a child in this
Speaker 1: situation and feel like I am the only person who
Speaker 1: can help. I am the only person who can pull
Speaker 1: them out of this. I am saving them from themselves
Speaker 1: by giving them money, by making excuses. There is something
Speaker 1: that I'm doing to help this situation. Now that you've
Speaker 1: decided to leave this relationship without them doing anything different,
Speaker 1: what can you do in these relationships with your I
Speaker 1: don't even want to call them in laws. I know
Speaker 1: they refer to you as daughter in law, but it's
Speaker 1: kind of like your your child's father's family, right, Like,
Speaker 1: how do you exist in the relationships with them? You
Speaker 1: will have some sort of custody with your child, and
Speaker 1: during that time you can have some rules, some boundaries
Speaker 1: around their level of activity. And access, So in some
Speaker 1: ways you can manage your relationship with them. Now. Of course,
Speaker 1: whatever they do when your child is with your former partner,
Speaker 1: they will be able to do. Now, you can talk
Speaker 1: about those things, but it does not necessary mean that
Speaker 1: he has to respect those things. The third thing I'm
Speaker 1: thinking of in this paragraph is the labeling that I'm
Speaker 1: saying codependent, enabling. Those terms describe a set of behaviors, right,
Speaker 1: it can be more helpful for us to look at
Speaker 1: those set of behaviors and talk about those than it
Speaker 1: might be to just label. Because when we throw that
Speaker 1: label out there, the people we're trying to get to
Speaker 1: get it. They may be offended by it. They may
Speaker 1: not feel like the situation fits everything within the label.
Speaker 1: So messy codependent relationships, What does that actually mean? Your
Speaker 1: mom gives your brother money, your mom does X, Y
Speaker 1: and Z, your brother at family events has eight drinks
Speaker 1: instead of two. What is the behavior we're saying? People
Speaker 1: can relate to that a bit more than us may
Speaker 1: be saying it's codependent, it's enabling. What are the behaviors
Speaker 1: that we're referring to speak to those behaviors as we're
Speaker 1: talking to people, and certainly as you're bringing these things
Speaker 1: up as an issue in your relationship, Remember, these are
Speaker 1: your issues with these people. These may not be your
Speaker 1: partner's issues. And I know we like to think like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is a general issue, this is
Speaker 1: an issue that everyone should have. But guess what sounds
Speaker 1: like It's not an everybody issue. It is your issue,
Speaker 1: and you will have to figure out now that I'm
Speaker 1: out of this relationship, how do I want to deal with,
Speaker 1: you know, these things that occur in my excess family.
Speaker 1: How do I want to talk to my kids about
Speaker 1: some of these things that I've seen. That is now
Speaker 1: the work to be done in those relationships. Let's keep listening.
Speaker 2: So again, while we're fortunately not dealing with the legal
Speaker 2: headache or the perhaps regret of a wedding and a
Speaker 2: legal marriage, we were very much in partnership and I
Speaker 2: really am also grappling with a personal sense of betrayal.
Speaker 2: My partner is in the public eye. I knew who
Speaker 2: he was before I started dating him, and was really
Speaker 2: attracted to his public values, which included his beliefs about
Speaker 2: justice and human rights and just kindness and how to
Speaker 2: be a human being in the world and to have
Speaker 2: he never really acknowledged his inherited patriarchy and how it
Speaker 2: affected our domestic life and the weight that it put
Speaker 2: on me, the load that it put on me, nor
Speaker 2: the sort of trauma of this to functional family. And
Speaker 2: I ended up feeling really confused in gas lit because
Speaker 2: I would just be saying over and over again how
Speaker 2: important something was to me, like the bathroom being cleaned,
Speaker 2: of the toilet seat being down, and it just never
Speaker 2: changed his behavior. And eventually, you know, despite the words
Speaker 2: of I love you and the intention on his part
Speaker 2: to be a good partner. I know it's important to
Speaker 2: him to be able to say that he's a good partner,
Speaker 2: to be a good partner, but he doesn't actually take
Speaker 2: the actions, and it would just be about how he
Speaker 2: could never meet my standards and it was never going
Speaker 2: to be good enough. It's left me very confused. And
Speaker 2: while I'm pretty sure it was the right decision for
Speaker 2: me to leave the relationship, especially because it's not a
Speaker 2: regular breakup where I can just sort of distance myself again,
Speaker 2: obviously going to have to be in relationship with all
Speaker 2: of these folks, and as a parent, my son is
Speaker 2: only three, you know, want to be able to explain
Speaker 2: things to him if and when he asks, more like when,
Speaker 2: and just be in healthy relationship for myself with people
Speaker 2: who have proven that they're going to maintain the chaos
Speaker 2: and dysfunction. If anything, these folks have proven to me
Speaker 2: that they're not really going to take the actions to change.
Speaker 2: I've never seen that in the five years now that
Speaker 2: I've been in relationship with them.
Speaker 1: Is domestics support a human's rights issue? Is this something
Speaker 1: that should be addressed in partnerships?
Speaker 3: I think so.
Speaker 1: As a therapist who sees couples, one of the predominant
Speaker 1: arguments that we're working through is domestic support. What do
Speaker 1: task and duties look like in our household? Who's doing what?
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the book fair Play, which I would
Speaker 1: suggest as a read if you are going through domestic
Speaker 1: support issues. It is a wonderful book about redistributing the
Speaker 1: task load in your relationships.
Speaker 3: There is an.
Speaker 1: Idea among women and among men that women can handle
Speaker 1: certain tasks, and what we're starting to see is the
Speaker 1: rise and anxiety, the rise in depression and burnout, and
Speaker 1: certainly female initiated divorces, And a huge part of that
Speaker 1: is because of the domestic load women are getting to
Speaker 1: the point where they're tired, they are burned out. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of fatigue around having to work, having to parent,
Speaker 1: and carry weight of the household. I wonder in our relationships,
Speaker 1: what is this idea of good enough partner? What is
Speaker 1: your partner's definition of I'm a good partner? What is
Speaker 1: your definition of I'm a good partner? I hear you
Speaker 1: saying that he thinks he's a good partner, But what
Speaker 1: does that mean to him? Is it?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: I do all of these things on the outside. I
Speaker 1: maintain a job, I work in humans rights, I do
Speaker 1: all this political stuff that makes me a good partner
Speaker 1: that sounds to me like maybe a good person. Right,
Speaker 1: And just because you're a good person, it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that you are a good partner. Just because you're a
Speaker 1: good chef, it doesn't mean that you're a good partner.
Speaker 1: Just because I'm a good therapist, it doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: I'm a good partner. So, you know, what is this
Speaker 1: definition of good partner?
Speaker 3: Again?
Speaker 1: I think there are you know, phrases in terms being used,
Speaker 1: but what do those things actually mean? We have to
Speaker 1: break those down. Doesn't mean that I'm here every day,
Speaker 1: I listen to you talk. Maybe that's not what you need.
Speaker 1: Maybe your definition of good partner is a person who
Speaker 1: helps me in these areas with the children, a person
Speaker 1: who helps me in these areas with the household, a
Speaker 1: person who helps me in these areas with blank Maybe
Speaker 1: the work stuff isn't even important.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I wonder what is your definition of a good partner,
Speaker 1: because right now I'm hearing that those two things on
Speaker 1: the line. He is being a good partner for his
Speaker 1: idea of what a good partner is and for what
Speaker 1: your idea is is not adding up. We will finish
Speaker 1: listening to this call after the break. Let's keep listening.
Speaker 3: It's a lot.
Speaker 2: This happened during the pandemic. I've left two jobs during
Speaker 2: this saga, this chapter of my life. And while I've
Speaker 2: absolutely loved becoming a mother, I love being pregnant. I
Speaker 2: want to be a mom again if I can. The
Speaker 2: chaos of this and the way I feel manipulated by
Speaker 2: it because my version of events was really never validated
Speaker 2: by anybody, and that I'm going to have to continue
Speaker 2: to be in relationship with these folks, It's just really
Speaker 2: spun my world around. I did do individual therapy and
Speaker 2: couple's therapy with my partner while this was going on,
Speaker 2: and sometimes I've felt that the therapists didn't necessarily have
Speaker 2: the cultural competence or the experiences necessary to help us
Speaker 2: navigate such a tricky conflict. I often felt like my
Speaker 2: partner just wasn't being held accountable, and it's complicated my
Speaker 2: feelings even towards getting therapeutic help, which I know on
Speaker 2: some level that I do.
Speaker 3: So thank you for listening.
Speaker 2: I know that was a lot. Yeah, I just I've
Speaker 2: loved your books and your podcast and just your entire
Speaker 2: groundedness in your perspective and in boundaries has been incredibly
Speaker 2: fortifying for me. So I'm extremely grateful. Thank you so much,
Speaker 2: doctor twelve.
Speaker 1: Cultural competence that is a term that refers to a
Speaker 1: level of training, education understanding a therapist has around a culture. Right.
Speaker 1: I remember when I was in grad school, they give
Speaker 1: you this book, It's called the Ethnicity and Something Book,
Speaker 1: and you can almost go to any sort of ethnicity
Speaker 1: and it tells you like, this is.
Speaker 3: How you treat Polish patients, this is how.
Speaker 1: You work with African American Black clients, this is how
Speaker 1: you work with you know, all of these sorts of ethnicities,
Speaker 1: and it was slightly helpful. But what we're doing as
Speaker 1: therapists is working with actual people. So one part of
Speaker 1: them might be that culture. But if there's a book
Speaker 1: where it's saying for black people, these are the sort
Speaker 1: of things that you know you may need to address
Speaker 1: with them, or this is the way that you present
Speaker 1: treatment to them, that's not true for all people in
Speaker 1: that culture, right, So can we teach cultural competence.
Speaker 3: A little bit?
Speaker 1: I think what we're actually learning though, is like cultural openness,
Speaker 1: because even if I know a little bit about a
Speaker 1: person being Chaldean, or a person you know, being Jehovah's witness,
Speaker 1: or you know, just just all of these different things,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that this individual in particular has adopted
Speaker 1: every aspect of themselves from this culture. It gives you
Speaker 1: an overview, right, but I need to speak with you
Speaker 1: to figure out what your culture is, which can be
Speaker 1: influenced even by stuff outside your culture. Where did you
Speaker 1: go to school, where did you grow up? Let me
Speaker 1: hear about your parents, what was your class within your culture?
Speaker 1: You know, what are some other dynamics. So cultural openness
Speaker 1: is very important for therapists to implement.
Speaker 3: With clients. We have to be open.
Speaker 1: I can't say that, you know, anybody is the same,
Speaker 1: not anyone within ethnicity.
Speaker 3: I can say, okay, these things apply to them. I
Speaker 3: think we're unique.
Speaker 1: We're unique, and our level of cultural competence needs to
Speaker 1: be unique for our clients. It is unfortunate that you
Speaker 1: felt like the therapist was was siding with him and
Speaker 1: didn't really understand the cultural dynamics at play. Sometimes with couples,
Speaker 1: the best thing they could do is go to individual
Speaker 1: therapy separately, because a lot of the things that you're
Speaker 1: bringing to that couple's dynamic is individual stuff. All of
Speaker 1: the things that you've mentioned here with your partner was
Speaker 1: a lot of individuals stuff, and your individual stuff was
Speaker 1: showing up as well. Right, you want to be treated fairly,
Speaker 1: You want, you know, like all of this stuff. So
Speaker 1: sometimes when we are not getting along in our relationships,
Speaker 1: it's really important to do our own individual work. And
Speaker 1: then in addition to that, both of us going to
Speaker 1: individual therapy, then we're showing up to couple's therapy because
Speaker 1: then we have that space to work on our stuff.
Speaker 1: Because some things come up and we shouldn't even talk
Speaker 1: about it as a couple. These are things for you
Speaker 1: to work on with your own person. I don't need
Speaker 1: to walk you through this experience you had when you
Speaker 1: were twelve. This is something for you to work through
Speaker 1: with your own individual therapist. So perhaps the couple's therapy
Speaker 1: it was a little premature if he wasn't in his
Speaker 1: own therapy working through these very personal issues that he's having.
Speaker 1: Now here's the thing with that. Sometimes when we tell
Speaker 1: our partners to go to therapy, they're working on stuff
Speaker 1: that has nothing to do.
Speaker 3: With the issues we have with them, which sucks. It sucks.
Speaker 3: It's no clinical way to say suck.
Speaker 1: So you know it sucks when somebody is going to
Speaker 1: therapy and you're like, okay, you're still having all these issues,
Speaker 1: and they're and there like yeah, I'm so happy I
Speaker 1: get to talk to you about my friendships. And it's like, hey, hey, hey,
Speaker 1: I sent you over there the therapy to talk about
Speaker 1: our domestic issues. So we can't even determine what they
Speaker 1: talk about. So much of the work that people have
Speaker 1: to do is their work, right, and we can't determine
Speaker 1: what they see their work ass which is you know,
Speaker 1: another part of it. But you can say to a person, Hey,
Speaker 1: I think it would be hopeful for you to go
Speaker 1: to therapy and possibly just bring up some of your
Speaker 1: family stuff and you know, maybe process it there and
Speaker 1: see if they're willing to do that. We can suggest it.
Speaker 1: They may not take the task up or you know,
Speaker 1: do it to our level of desire, but you know,
Speaker 1: we could present it as an option. So individual with
Speaker 1: couple's therapy is what we want to see. There are
Speaker 1: times where there are clearly just some couple issues, but
Speaker 1: if you're not making progress, it could be a huge
Speaker 1: sign that some individual therapy for both people is necessary
Speaker 1: to get over the hurdles in your relationship. I heard
Speaker 1: you mentioned here that you are feeling manipulated, and I
Speaker 1: have a question for you. If you're aware that you're
Speaker 1: being manipulated, are you being manipulated? I wonder if there's
Speaker 1: something else there, right, Like, I feel like manipulation happens
Speaker 1: a little bit without our awareness, right if someone is
Speaker 1: doing something like if someone says to me, hey, can
Speaker 1: I have five dollars and I know they're going to
Speaker 1: use this five dollars to go shopping, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: they shouldn't be shopping, and I give them the five dollars.
Speaker 1: They haven't manipulated me. I'm aware of what you're doing.
Speaker 1: I'm aware of what this situation is. Now. I might
Speaker 1: feel like I can't say no to you, I don't
Speaker 1: want to say no to you, or maybe I want
Speaker 1: to help you, but I am more aware of what
Speaker 1: the situation is and what your intention is behind this thing.
Speaker 1: So you have a level of awareness around the intention
Speaker 1: behind some.
Speaker 3: Of this stuff.
Speaker 1: So I would think a little bit deeply about the
Speaker 1: word manipulation. I wonder if there is another word that
Speaker 1: can be used other than manipulation. It might be helpful
Speaker 1: to just pull up maybe a feelings will, maybe a
Speaker 1: feelings chart, to just look at an assortment of feelings
Speaker 1: to pull something else out. I don't want to tell
Speaker 1: you what it is because I don't know, but I
Speaker 1: wonder if there's another word other than manipulated. While I'm
Speaker 1: on the subject of feeling wheels, they are so helpful.
Speaker 1: Go to Pinterest, go to Google images, go to bing.
Speaker 1: I don't know what search engine you use. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: throw something out there, but pull up a feelings will,
Speaker 1: and I want you to challenge yourself around the feeling
Speaker 1: you think you're stuck in sometimes.
Speaker 3: It'd be like, I'm so angry.
Speaker 1: You look at that feelings will and the three feelings
Speaker 1: around it, It's like, ooh, I'm sad. Why did I
Speaker 1: say angry? Just look at the assortment of things that
Speaker 1: you could be feeling and how they're You know, feelings
Speaker 1: are like cousins. They're so close to each other. They
Speaker 1: are like first cousins just stacked on top of each other.
Speaker 1: But you realize like, oh, this is it, and once
Speaker 1: you can really pinpoint I'm actually disappointed. When you get
Speaker 1: to the point of really getting to that feeling, it
Speaker 1: is like a release.
Speaker 3: It is like.
Speaker 1: Letting the air out of something. It's like it's like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm disappointed. It feels freeing. It gives
Speaker 1: you clarity. It's not gonna change the situation. I'm not
Speaker 1: promising you change, but the clarity certainly helps you to
Speaker 1: feel a little bit better about what's going on. So
Speaker 1: my suggestion here is to get really really clear about
Speaker 1: the exact feeling. Is it resentment? Is it you know
Speaker 1: I'm feeling manipulated? Is it a level of anger? What
Speaker 1: could really be working with this situation? I am so
Speaker 1: grateful to you for you know reading my books and
Speaker 1: you know going through my content and receiving the information.
Speaker 1: What's really important is you have made a decision to
Speaker 1: not being this relationship with your partner, and you can
Speaker 1: also make a decision to reshape those extended relationships that
Speaker 1: you have with your former partner's family. There is some
Speaker 1: choice here, there are some options here, and you have
Speaker 1: less of an obligation because you're no longer directly in
Speaker 1: that relationship with your partner. Think about what you want
Speaker 1: these relationships to look like. You need to hear this.
Speaker 1: When we get into relationships with people, we get into
Speaker 1: relationships with their stories, with their history, with their paths,
Speaker 1: with their family, with their family doctor, all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 1: We are just all of them. It comes up in
Speaker 1: different situations. Therefore, we have to be more considerate around
Speaker 1: the things that are really important to us. It doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that, you know, we can't date or be in
Speaker 1: relationship with folks who have a certain background, but we
Speaker 1: need to be clear about how they synthesize those things,
Speaker 1: what they think about those things, how they feel impacted,
Speaker 1: and what they're doing, because that is a really important piece.
Speaker 1: If I see the issues.
Speaker 3: Do you see these issues?
Speaker 1: Are we on the same page with what some of
Speaker 1: these challenges are.
Speaker 3: If we're all ready.
Speaker 1: In the relationship with folks, we have to focus on
Speaker 1: how those issues impact our relationship. We're not trying to
Speaker 1: change all these people into family. My focus is on
Speaker 1: how those family relationships impact our household. These are the
Speaker 1: things we need to work on. You need to hear
Speaker 1: this as an iHeart production and host it by me
Speaker 1: Madra Glover to WAP. Our executive producer is Joe L. Baldique.
Speaker 1: Our senior producer and editor is Mia don Taylor. Send
Speaker 1: us a voice memo with your questions about boundaries and
Speaker 1: relationships that you need to hear this at iHeartMedia dot
Speaker 1: com right now. I'm really interested in hearing more stories
Speaker 1: from parents who are strange from their children, also people
Speaker 1: who are having marriage issues. I don't know about you,
Speaker 1: but I feel like I am in this space in
Speaker 1: life where I'm hearing more and more about, you know,
Speaker 1: marriages and women initiating divorce. So I am really interested
Speaker 1: in hearing more about some of your marriage issues and
Speaker 1: self sabotage. What are you struggling with. What are some
Speaker 1: of the things that you find really hard to do?
Speaker 1: What are your barriers, What are your blocks? I'd love
Speaker 1: to hear more on Three Things Strange Men, marriage issues,
Speaker 1: and self sabotage.