Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Laura. Today. October second is International Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction Day, and to mark this day, we're re releasing
Speaker 1: an episode that first came out exactly two years ago.
Speaker 1: It's an episode that's really close to my heart because
Speaker 1: it features my longtime clients and friend, Brendan Dacy. Here's
Speaker 1: a quick update on worthings stand with Brendan. Although Wisconsin
Speaker 1: Governor Tony Evers denied Brendan clemency in twenty nineteen, we're
Speaker 1: still fighting to free him and we've been joined by
Speaker 1: an army of supporters, everyone from legal experts to everyday people.
Speaker 1: In fact, I want to shout out one particularly dedicated
Speaker 1: group of online supporters that's been doing some pretty incredible
Speaker 1: work over the past year. They've done everything from organizing
Speaker 1: email campaigns to placing free Brendan Dasy billboards along Wisconsin highways.
Speaker 1: Their message has reached more than one point eight million
Speaker 1: people so far. Their dedication is amazing, and yours is tuo.
Speaker 1: So to all of Brendan's supporters and to Brendan himself
Speaker 1: and so many others like him. We're re releasing this
Speaker 1: episode for you.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flumm, you know
Speaker 2: many of our listeners. Most of our listeners have seen
Speaker 2: the Netflix original series Making a Murderer. It's the story
Speaker 2: of Stephen Avery, a guy from the wrong side of
Speaker 2: the tracks whose family owned an auto salvage yard in Manitoa, Wisconsin.
Speaker 2: It starts off in nineteen eighty five, where Stephen Avery
Speaker 2: was wrongfully convicted of a sexual assault, for which he
Speaker 2: was exonerated eighteen years later when the DNA in the
Speaker 2: case was found to match another man and his alibis
Speaker 2: were proven to have been true all along. After his release,
Speaker 2: in two thousand and three, Avery filed a thirty six
Speaker 2: million dollars civil suit against Manitoa County, Wisconsin and several
Speaker 2: of its officials. Fast forward to two thousand and five.
Speaker 2: Teresa Halbach, a photographer known to have been photographing cars
Speaker 2: on the Avery property when missing. The handling of the
Speaker 2: investigation was quite controversial, to say the least, with issues
Speaker 2: of evidence tampering, not to mention the obvious conflict of
Speaker 2: interest in allowing Manitoa County to investigate the very same
Speaker 2: man who was suing them for thirty six million dollars. However,
Speaker 2: all of that aside The most damning piece of evidence
Speaker 2: came in the form of a false confession from Avery's nephew,
Speaker 2: Brendan Dacy, a sixteen year old boy with no criminal
Speaker 2: record and serious mental challenges. Now, I'm honored to present
Speaker 2: the exclusive, the one and only interview that Brendan has
Speaker 2: ever given to anyone joining us has esteemed appellad attorney
Speaker 2: from the Center on Romful Convictions at Northwestern University. My
Speaker 2: friend Laura and nightrider. Laura was kind enough to pick
Speaker 2: me up from the airport in Chicago and we drove
Speaker 2: out to Oshkosh Correctional Facility for a pre interview behind
Speaker 2: bars with Brandon. This left us with both time to
Speaker 2: talk and plenty to talk about. We have had a
Speaker 2: very eventful last twenty four hours.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's been a trip I've done so
Speaker 1: many times for going on twelve years now, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was a trip I hoped to never have to
Speaker 1: make again. That it's a trip that you know what
Speaker 1: we're going to keep on doing for as long as
Speaker 1: we have to do. Right, go out there, support him,
Speaker 1: and I'm just glad you had a chance to see
Speaker 1: who Brendan is, you know, to really spend some time
Speaker 1: with him and get to know him, because he's he's
Speaker 1: a pretty incredible guy.
Speaker 2: Brandon is a very powerful example of a phenomenon that
Speaker 2: amazes me and keeps me going and drives me onward
Speaker 2: in this fight, which is that there is an absolute
Speaker 2: and total absence of malice, anger, bitterness, self pity. Like
Speaker 2: I don't even think he knows what those emotions are.
Speaker 1: He's an incredible guy. I mean, you know, he was
Speaker 1: sixteen when he went in. He's twenty nine years old now.
Speaker 1: And during that whole period of time of knowing him,
Speaker 1: You're right, I mean, Brendan is a sweet soul. You know,
Speaker 1: he's a he's a simple guy. He's a funny guy.
Speaker 1: He's gentle, he's so gentle and kind shallow. No, no,
Speaker 1: he's not.
Speaker 2: That's right, And in his story is one of extreme juxtaposition, right,
Speaker 2: because he went from being a very childlike young person
Speaker 2: adolescent into a very extreme grown up situation. You got
Speaker 2: involved with Brennan's case at what stage?
Speaker 1: Well, let's start with Steve Drisen, my colleague on the case.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, about three months after Brendan
Speaker 1: was convicted. At his trial, Steve was asked to handle
Speaker 1: Brendan's appeals going forward because of his expertise around interrogations
Speaker 1: and confessions.
Speaker 2: Two thousand and sevens this is lost. Yes, he was
Speaker 2: just another of the two point two million people in prison.
Speaker 1: That right, that's right, and Steve took the case. Now
Speaker 1: this is two thousand and seven. Okay. So at the time,
Speaker 1: Steve was teaching here at Northwestern Law School, and I
Speaker 1: was a third year law student in Steve's class on
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Now, I didn't intend to practice criminal law.
Speaker 1: I actually had a career all mapped out for myself
Speaker 1: as a business lawyer. I was going to go do that.
Speaker 1: I had a job lined up after graduation. I knew
Speaker 1: nothing at a law from here in town, here in Chicago,
Speaker 1: And you know, I knew nothing about the criminal justice system.
Speaker 1: I knew nothing about wrongful convictions. I definitely knew nothing
Speaker 1: about false confessions. But I'd signed up for Steve's class,
Speaker 1: you know, on a whim, try to do something off
Speaker 1: the beaten path. And a few months into that fall
Speaker 1: semester of my last year of law school, that's you know,
Speaker 1: Steve called me into his office and he said, I've
Speaker 1: just gotten involved in a case from Wisconsin involving a
Speaker 1: six teen year old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed
Speaker 1: to a crime that I don't think he committed. And
Speaker 1: he handed me the interrogation videos from Brendan Dazzy's case, right,
Speaker 1: the same videos that years and years later ended up
Speaker 1: in making a murder. And he told me to go
Speaker 1: watch them. So I went home. I sat down on
Speaker 1: my couch, I got out my laptop, because this is
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, I pop in these DVDs and
Speaker 1: I watched them all right, from start to finish, their
Speaker 1: confession tapes. Yeah, and my heart broke, and I knew
Speaker 1: that this is it. This is what I had to
Speaker 1: do with, you know, fight for people like Brendan. So,
Speaker 1: you know, no more business law for me. I came
Speaker 1: back to Northwestern after graduating, and for the last twelve years,
Speaker 1: I've been building with Steve the Center on Wrongful Convictions,
Speaker 1: where we represent Brendan and other kids just like him.
Speaker 2: So for the people who may not have seen making
Speaker 2: a murder, and there are those who listen to our
Speaker 2: show who haven't seen, Yeah, what was it? What was
Speaker 2: the moment? What was it about those tapes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I actually remember
Speaker 1: the moment. Right. It's so this is a videotape of
Speaker 1: the entire interrogation.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: He was actually questioned four times over forty eight hours,
Speaker 1: and it was only the last interrogation that produced the confession.
Speaker 1: You know, which I which I say in quotation marks.
Speaker 1: But this is an interrogation where they're asking Brendan about murder. Right,
Speaker 1: this is a murder case. So they want to ask
Speaker 1: him about, you know, how was the victim in this case?
Speaker 1: How was Teresa Halbach killed? Right? And and these police
Speaker 1: going into the interrogation, they know, or they think they
Speaker 1: know based on their own investigation, that she had been
Speaker 1: shot in the head. So they're waiting for Brendan to
Speaker 1: describe shooting somebody in the head, right, So they ask him,
Speaker 1: you know, Brendan, how did you guys, you know, how
Speaker 1: did you kill Teresa Hallbach?
Speaker 3: And he says, we choked her.
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's not right. So they said, I'm okay,
Speaker 1: you know what else, Brendan, what else did you do
Speaker 1: to her?
Speaker 3: Did he do it? When we know something else was done?
Speaker 3: We stabbed her?
Speaker 1: Still not right, So they actually started not even close,
Speaker 1: So they start dropping him hints right. They say, come on, Brendan,
Speaker 1: something with the head, something with the head. What else
Speaker 1: did you guys do to her? And Brendan says, we
Speaker 1: punched her and that's still not right. So it's like
Speaker 1: Brendan's completely at sea and he says, you know, we
Speaker 1: we cut off her hair and his voice goes up
Speaker 1: like that like he's asking a question and no, no, no, Brendan,
Speaker 1: come on, what else? What else? Something with the head?
Speaker 1: What else?
Speaker 3: What else? What else was done to her head?
Speaker 1: And this goes on and on and on, and finally
Speaker 1: Brendan he must get exhausted and he just says, remember,
Speaker 1: And the officers at that point say to him, Brendan,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to come out and ask you.
Speaker 3: All right, I'm just going to come out and ask
Speaker 3: him who shot her in the hat?
Speaker 1: And you know, Brendan says, well, that was that was
Speaker 1: my uncle Stephen. And then, you know, comes one of
Speaker 1: the most heartbreaking moments of the entire interrogation, because I
Speaker 1: say to him, Brendan, why didn't you just tell us that?
Speaker 3: Why didn't you tell us that?
Speaker 1: And he says, because I couldn't think of it right.
Speaker 1: He was guessing. Yeah, So let's say you're not convinced
Speaker 1: the way I am that Brendan was guessing. Let's say
Speaker 1: for a moment that the story was true, that this
Speaker 1: bloody attack occurred in Stephen Avery's bedroom the way that
Speaker 1: Brendan's confession claimed that it did. You'd expect that bedroom
Speaker 1: and that bed to be covered with forensic evidence, blood
Speaker 1: from a stabbing and throat cutting, hair from when her
Speaker 1: hair was supposedly cut. I mean, think about how hard
Speaker 1: it is to clean up hair. And of course, after
Speaker 1: Brendan gave his confession, the police went back to Stephen
Speaker 1: Avery's bedroom and they searched it for evidence to corroborate
Speaker 1: the confession. They searched the bed, They searched the bedding,
Speaker 1: the mattress, the headboard, the bed frame. They looked at
Speaker 1: the carpet underneath the bed. They pulled that carpet back
Speaker 1: and looked underneath the carpet. They even took the paneling
Speaker 1: off the walls in the bedroom, searching for a single
Speaker 1: molecule of Teresa Halbach's DNA or Brendan Dacy's DNA, and
Speaker 1: they found nothing. This story didn't happen. It's made up.
Speaker 2: The day after our face to face meeting at Oshkosh Correctional,
Speaker 2: we did our formal interview with Brendan over the phone
Speaker 2: from Laura's office at Northwestern University.
Speaker 3: Not God Correctional Label.
Speaker 2: Hello, Hi, Brendan. It seems like only yesterday that I
Speaker 2: saw you, because it was only yesterday. Yeah, And it
Speaker 2: was great to meet you. You know, Laura and I
Speaker 2: had a long ride back to Chicago, and obviously we
Speaker 2: talked about you a lot and things that we are
Speaker 2: hoping to do to make a difference for you and
Speaker 2: with you. I mean, we'll wait for the announcement to
Speaker 2: go by. You went through an ordeal that even those
Speaker 2: of us that have seen the show and have seen
Speaker 2: on video parts of what happened, obviously we couldn't see
Speaker 2: the whole thing, but none of us can understand what
Speaker 2: it would be like to be in your shoes, you know,
Speaker 2: to be in this impossible situation of being a really
Speaker 2: a child at sixteen. You're still a child, You're not
Speaker 2: a grown man, and to be going to this interrogation
Speaker 2: where you have grown men who are interrogating you for days,
Speaker 2: without a parent, without a lawyer, without anyone to help you.
Speaker 2: I mean, were you scared or were you just thought
Speaker 2: maybe if you just told the truth, everything would be fine,
Speaker 2: or what was your thought process at that point?
Speaker 4: Well, I just wanted it all over with, so I
Speaker 4: said whatever they wanted to hear.
Speaker 2: You know, most people grow up as I did, with
Speaker 2: believing that the law enforcement are out to help us, right,
Speaker 2: the people you call when you need help. Did you
Speaker 2: have that same idea when you went in there?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I thought maybe anything I can do to help them,
Speaker 4: you know I would.
Speaker 2: So was there a point when you were in that
Speaker 2: horrible room where you started to worry about the outcome,
Speaker 2: or that you thought that these men may have been
Speaker 2: not as well intentioned as you originally thought.
Speaker 4: Yeah, when they started saying that that I wasn't telling
Speaker 4: the truth and that that my story didn't fit the
Speaker 4: facts that they had, that's when I started getting worried.
Speaker 2: There's a very good reason your story didn't fit the
Speaker 2: vaccas you didn't know the facts. Yeah, so, Brandon, you
Speaker 2: remember there was a time when the interrogators left the
Speaker 2: room for a few minutes and your mom came back
Speaker 2: into the room. Yeah, beautiful life.
Speaker 3: To say, did you huh not? Really? We do you
Speaker 3: need not really, huh what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: So was that the first time you had seen your
Speaker 2: mom since they had started interrogating you?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is okay.
Speaker 2: So what was it like to see her after being
Speaker 2: alone with those interrogators for such a long time?
Speaker 4: I felt that I could be safe and I could
Speaker 4: tell her the truth. You know that they got into
Speaker 4: my head, They got me to say whatever they wanted.
Speaker 2: Do you think either before, during, or after that, the
Speaker 2: detectives conducting that interrogation knew or realized that he was
Speaker 2: actually innocent?
Speaker 1: You know, it's a very good question, and it's something
Speaker 1: I've asked myself right over and over again. This is
Speaker 1: just my opinion, but I think that they were worried
Speaker 1: that something had gone wrong. Brendan's already been in the
Speaker 1: box for about three and a half hours. He's adopted
Speaker 1: their their theories that he committed rape and murder and
Speaker 1: the whole thing. And the story is over, it's done,
Speaker 1: it's locked, and they let her into the room, and
Speaker 1: the cameras are still rolling in the room, right and
Speaker 1: they leave two of them alone. You know, it's my
Speaker 1: theory that they were outside watching this all unclosed circuit
Speaker 1: camera hoping that Brendan was going to make more admissions
Speaker 1: to his mother. Instead, he recants one of the clearest
Speaker 1: recantations I've ever heard, Right, Brendan using his own words,
Speaker 1: his own ability to express himself, to tell his mom
Speaker 1: what he had just been through. They got to my head.
Speaker 1: And at that moment, the officers come barging back through
Speaker 1: that door into the interrogation room, and Brendan doesn't say
Speaker 1: another word.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm getting the chills. I mean, as a parent,
Speaker 2: it's just so heartbreaking. And look, I always say, there
Speaker 2: are a lot of very good people in our criminal
Speaker 2: justice system, but the ones who do the types of
Speaker 2: things that were done to Brendan. I mean, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of villains in this story.
Speaker 1: Right, some unbelievable characters in the story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so the system that was designed in theory
Speaker 2: to protect the innocent and this case, to protect Brendan
Speaker 2: failed at every level.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I mean you're starting in the interrogation room, that's right,
Speaker 2: starting with the fact that they targeted him in the
Speaker 2: first place. I don't really understand. I mean, I have
Speaker 2: a theory in my own head about why they may
Speaker 2: have done that, and maybe we'll never know, but it
Speaker 2: seems like to me they wanted to build a stronger
Speaker 2: case against Stephen, no doubt about it, and so they
Speaker 2: went for the weakest length, no doubt about right. They
Speaker 2: knew that small community, they knew that Brendan was a
Speaker 2: simple person.
Speaker 1: Well, that's right. And you know, one of the things
Speaker 1: about Brendan, of course, he's got disabilities. Everybody knows that.
Speaker 1: But his disabilities in particular are clustered around speech. The
Speaker 1: way he speaks, the way he hears language, the way
Speaker 1: he processes words, and the way he uses his own words. Right,
Speaker 1: So you know, this is not a person who can
Speaker 1: sort of weave sophisticated stories or lies or things like that.
Speaker 1: And of course these are disabilities that are at the
Speaker 1: center of an interrogation, right, the sort of sophisticated level
Speaker 1: of conversation talking about you know, what could happen to
Speaker 1: him if he didn't confess because there was a threat
Speaker 1: in this case, what happened to him if he didn't
Speaker 1: start adopting the story that was being fed to him.
Speaker 1: What was going to happen on the other hand, if
Speaker 1: he if he did agree to go along with the story.
Speaker 1: You know, this is a really hard situation for someone
Speaker 1: like brendan sixteen special education student in Wisconsin public schools,
Speaker 1: a hard situation for him to navigate. He did the
Speaker 1: best he could.
Speaker 2: For as long as he could, for as long as
Speaker 2: he could.
Speaker 1: Four times over forty eight hours, these officers questioned him.
Speaker 2: And yeah, this should have been a first round knockout.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, he held up as long as he could.
Speaker 3: We've been investiating a lot, it is. We already know
Speaker 3: what happened. To be a lot easier on you if
Speaker 3: you live on it, that's going to be wrong. I'm
Speaker 3: your friends, Really, it's on fair place, on crap. You're
Speaker 3: an honest person, you get a better dealt of you
Speaker 3: going to believe on network.
Speaker 2: I don't believe in your archetical You can't make any propises,
Speaker 2: but we'll stand behind you.
Speaker 3: Your mom sid you'd be honest when she's behind you.
Speaker 3: What happens? She thinks you know more to and you're
Speaker 3: more borner.
Speaker 1: We already know what happened on toss exactly.
Speaker 2: What would you tell people when they're sitting in that
Speaker 2: jury box and they're listening to incredible testimony videotapes. Yes,
Speaker 2: I'm someone going yeah I did it? Yeah, So what
Speaker 2: should peopleatch because some confessions are true.
Speaker 1: Of course, some confessions are true. Those are the ones
Speaker 1: we want, right, it's you know, we got to screen
Speaker 1: out the false confession.
Speaker 2: So what do they look for?
Speaker 1: Okay? So the big message, right, A confession is just
Speaker 1: a piece of evidence, like any other piece of evidence. Right,
Speaker 1: Sometimes it can be misleading, and you question it and
Speaker 1: you examine it in the same way that you'd ask
Speaker 1: you know, critical questions, intelligent questions about any other piece
Speaker 1: of evidence. Right, can I trust what this person is saying?
Speaker 1: So when you see a confession like Brendan Darcy's, where
Speaker 1: somebody is getting the facts of the crime wrong unless
Speaker 1: they're being told the right answer, that's a red flag.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: It happens throughout Brendan's interrogation, details learned and small he
Speaker 1: can't come up with. He's guessing, and he guesses wrong,
Speaker 1: actually until he gets strained out by the officers. Not
Speaker 1: just about how Teresa Holbach was killed. But he can't
Speaker 1: decide if a shirt was black or white, right, he
Speaker 1: doesn't know what the right answer is. Has he never
Speaker 1: met her because he never saw her, that's right. He
Speaker 1: can't decide if the fire was started at three PM
Speaker 1: or later on in the evening after dark, right, I
Speaker 1: mean he doesn't know these things. He's just guessing all
Speaker 1: over the place. And you see this repeatedly throughout false
Speaker 1: confession cases, because what you have in those cases are
Speaker 1: people who had nothing to do with the crime trying
Speaker 1: to say something that sounds believable to satisfy their interrogators.
Speaker 2: Almost everybody I've ever met says the same thing. I
Speaker 2: am not that guy. I'm smart, I'm capable, I'm strong,
Speaker 2: I'm not confessing with crime and then commitment.
Speaker 1: Everybody thinks this, right, Well, that's for other people, right,
Speaker 1: That's for you know, maybe mentally impaired people, that's for
Speaker 1: children maybe. So what you have to understand is that
Speaker 1: interrogation is a carefully orchestrated set of psychological tactics that
Speaker 1: are designed to get people off their belief in their
Speaker 1: own innocence and designed to actually make them believe that
Speaker 1: it will help them, that it will improve their situation,
Speaker 1: that it will benefit them to say they did these
Speaker 1: things that the officers think. Right, These are incredibly powerful techniques,
Speaker 1: and every single one of us has a breaking point,
Speaker 1: and these techniques are designed to find it. So how
Speaker 1: does this work, right, So the way this basically works,
Speaker 1: interrogation is generally a two stage process. The first half
Speaker 1: is all about confrontation and reducing you down to hopelessness. Right,
Speaker 1: we know you did this. I've got so much evidence
Speaker 1: against you. No one is going to believe you when
Speaker 1: you say you're innocent. Right, I've got three people in
Speaker 1: the room next door who picked you out of a lineup.
Speaker 1: I've got your DNA on the scene, I've got your
Speaker 1: fingerprints on the gun. Even if none of that is true.
Speaker 1: By the way, it's perfectly legal for the police to lie.
Speaker 1: That's right. Not the UK, that's right, but here it's
Speaker 1: perfectly legal for the police to lie during interrogations. So
Speaker 1: they bring you down to hopelessness. Right, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to listen to you say you're innocent. You're just making
Speaker 1: it worse off for yourself. No one's going to believe you.
Speaker 1: You're caught, you're trapped, you're screwed, You've got nothing. And
Speaker 1: then when you reach that point of hopelessness, that's when
Speaker 1: they offer you an out right a life raft confession.
Speaker 1: It's going to help you. If you confess, you will
Speaker 1: go easy on you. You know, I'll go talk to
Speaker 1: the judge. Right, I'll see what I can do for you.
Speaker 1: Things are going to be so much better for you.
Speaker 1: You've got a whole life to live in front of you.
Speaker 1: You're just a kid. People are going to understand that
Speaker 1: over and over. But I need to hear the story
Speaker 1: from you.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: People are going to understand that you deserve help if
Speaker 1: you cooperate. That's how it works.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: These techniques are incredibly good at getting true confessions, but
Speaker 1: they are so potent that they also get false confessions.
Speaker 2: And this actually we're sitting here in Chicago, which is
Speaker 2: where this was originated, right, the read.
Speaker 1: Technique read technique actually even better than that. It's originated
Speaker 1: here out of the work of a professor at Northwestern
Speaker 1: Law School. Oh my god, back in the nineteen forties, right,
Speaker 1: so before these are that's right, before these psychological techniques
Speaker 1: were developed, interrogations were physical, right, the third degree. People
Speaker 1: were beaten or hung out of windows. Right, this is
Speaker 1: how it was done. And in the forties, these people
Speaker 1: who at the time were thought of as progressive reformers
Speaker 1: come along and say, you know what, let's stop physically
Speaker 1: abusing people. Let's do the psychological techniques. Instead, those techniques
Speaker 1: that were developed here at Northwestern here in Chicago back
Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties are still being used today. Talk
Speaker 1: about outdated even though the DNA revolution, which has been
Speaker 1: in full swing now for twenty five years, has proven
Speaker 1: time and again that these outdated techniques are far too
Speaker 1: capable of coercing false confessions.
Speaker 2: The crazy thing is correct me if I'm wrong, you're
Speaker 2: the lawyer in this equation. But had Brendan said what
Speaker 2: I advise people listening to the show, or anybody who
Speaker 2: asked me anywhere, if you're picked up for a crime
Speaker 2: that you didn't commit, and you're brought to the station,
Speaker 2: and you're placed in this situation, right, and you say yourself, well,
Speaker 2: I don't want to end up like Brendan. What do
Speaker 2: you do?
Speaker 1: I want a lawyer, that's what you say, right. I
Speaker 1: want a lawyer that stops the interrogation, or it should
Speaker 1: stop the interrogation. That's your constitutional right to say that.
Speaker 1: What's interesting, of course, you know the Miranda rights are
Speaker 1: read usually at the beginning of interrogations. Eighty five percent
Speaker 1: of people wave their miranda rights, So I mean a
Speaker 1: huge number of people do right. We think of these
Speaker 1: as these important safeguards, and everybody's out there asserting their
Speaker 1: rights to lawyers and their right to be silent and
Speaker 1: all these No, everybody waves these rights. And you know
Speaker 1: we've all been in that situation right where you get
Speaker 1: pulled over and you think you can talk your way
Speaker 1: out of it. People wave these rights. They don't understand
Speaker 1: how these rights can help them, especially kids. Right, what
Speaker 1: does it mean to a kid? What does it mean
Speaker 1: to Brendan Dassy that he can have a lawyer in
Speaker 1: the room, his admissions will be used against him in court.
Speaker 1: He doesn't know what a lawyer does. He doesn't understand
Speaker 1: the ways in which a lawyer could help him or
Speaker 1: improve his situation or stop this from happening to him.
Speaker 1: But yeah, huge numbers of people waive those rights. And
Speaker 1: it's actually the numbers are even greater when we're talking
Speaker 1: about innocent people.
Speaker 2: Sure, right, because you figure, ihing, I go home.
Speaker 1: Right, nothing to hid, of course, I'll talk to you, right.
Speaker 2: And you may also be sitting there thinking, well, if
Speaker 2: it's going to take a long time for a lawyer
Speaker 2: to get here, wait, I have things to do.
Speaker 1: Let me just clear this up, No problem, No, I'll
Speaker 1: be out of here.
Speaker 2: No, No, we're begging you. This is Jason and Laura
Speaker 2: personally begging you. If you're in that situation, there's only
Speaker 2: four words you need. I want a lawyer.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Part of the process that landed Brendan in this situation,
Speaker 2: which was his.
Speaker 1: Own team, Lenn Kachinsky.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us what that was like? I mean,
Speaker 2: being represented by this guide.
Speaker 4: When I first met him, I knew that he didn't
Speaker 4: have I have my best interest in mind, because he
Speaker 4: was always trying to get me to take a plead
Speaker 4: deal or something.
Speaker 2: So you knew right away. Yeah, Brendan, than a lot
Speaker 2: of credit to you, because you know, many people might
Speaker 2: not have picked up on that so quickly, because people
Speaker 2: go into that situation they think, well, this is my lawyer.
Speaker 2: He's going to be protecting me and defending me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so you knew right away. But then as things progressed,
Speaker 2: I mean, did you feel betrayed or did you feel
Speaker 2: hopeful that maybe he was going to turn it around
Speaker 2: and actually do his job.
Speaker 4: No, especially since that when I saw him on TV
Speaker 4: with Nancy Drace, you know, and he more or less
Speaker 4: told her that he believes that I'm guilty.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, there's a lot of things wrong with that
Speaker 2: whole scenario. I mean, as you mentioned that named Nancy
Speaker 2: Grace and you know my skin crawls and that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the fact that he went on there with hers is horrible.
Speaker 2: And then you had this investigator who was supposed to
Speaker 2: be helping you. Yeah, and can you talk about that
Speaker 2: a little bit?
Speaker 4: What do you want to know?
Speaker 2: Well, when he was asking you to draw pictures and
Speaker 2: all these other things, and he was sort of badgering you,
Speaker 2: like Brendan, you did this? Yeah, what about this investigator?
Speaker 4: At first I thought maybe he would try to help me,
Speaker 4: you know, but then when he was trying to get
Speaker 4: me to more or let's give another confession, you know,
Speaker 4: I knew right then and there that he wasn't on
Speaker 4: my side either.
Speaker 2: So basically, you had your family and that was pretty
Speaker 2: much it. But they're not lawyers and they're not investigators.
Speaker 2: They're just just regular people.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how did being represented or misrepresented by len and
Speaker 2: the things that he did, how did that make you feel?
Speaker 4: It made me feel betrayed and that I couldn't really
Speaker 4: trust lawyers either, But now I can.
Speaker 2: What an insane set of twists and turns.
Speaker 1: Yeah, We've represented Brendan Dassi through the state court appeal system,
Speaker 1: where the state courts in Wisconsin were not particularly bothered
Speaker 1: by what they saw on that interrogation video, but we
Speaker 1: sort of expected that, and then we took his case,
Speaker 1: as people who watched Making a Murderer will remember, we
Speaker 1: took his case to the federal court system. Right. The
Speaker 1: way this basically works is you can go to federal
Speaker 1: court and you can say, hey, federal court, will you
Speaker 1: review the way in which the Wisconsin state courts protected
Speaker 1: Brendan's rights. So that's what we did. We went to
Speaker 1: the federal courts. We filed what's called a petition for
Speaker 1: a writ of habeas corpus, asking the federal court to
Speaker 1: take a look at how the state courts handled Brendan's case.
Speaker 1: But there is a trick here. Okay, so let's say
Speaker 1: you go into federal court and you prove to them
Speaker 1: beyond the shadow of a doubt, right that the state
Speaker 1: court was wrong in how it handled Brendan's case. You lose.
Speaker 1: In order to win in federal court, you have to
Speaker 1: prove not only that the state court was wrong in
Speaker 1: how it handled Brendan's case, but that it was so
Speaker 1: unreasonably wrong that no other judge in America could possibly
Speaker 1: have ruled the same way. Right, that's literally the legal
Speaker 1: standard thanks to the Anti Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty
Speaker 1: Act signed into law in nineteen ninety six, which keeps,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of innocent prisoners like Brendan Dacy
Speaker 1: from accessing this kind of relief in the federal courts.
Speaker 1: So that's the needle that you have to thread in
Speaker 1: federal court. So we filed our petition, you know, we
Speaker 1: made these arguments, yes, this is that's not just wrong,
Speaker 1: it's it's unreasonably wrong. No one else would rule this way.
Speaker 1: And we sat and waited months and months and months
Speaker 1: for a decision, and we got our decision. You know,
Speaker 1: we'd won after years of representing Brendan, we'd won in
Speaker 1: the federal district court, you know, which was a moment
Speaker 1: of enormous joy, as you can imagine. But we knew,
Speaker 1: because we've pushed the boulder up the hill a lot
Speaker 1: of times before, we knew that that was just round one,
Speaker 1: that the state had every right to appeal, that it
Speaker 1: was going to appeal this case, and it did. Right,
Speaker 1: that's right, that's right, that's right. And so when we
Speaker 1: found out that they were going to appeal, we said,
Speaker 1: you know what that is. You're right, we can't stop
Speaker 1: you from doing that, but we want Brendan out right.
Speaker 1: We want him home. This is right around Thanksgiving. We
Speaker 1: want him home for the holidays while you guys do
Speaker 1: your thing. So we asked the court to release Brendan
Speaker 1: during the appeals and we made all of our arguments.
Speaker 1: Here's where he's going to go live. He's going to
Speaker 1: be in a protected environment. We have a social worker
Speaker 1: on the space, you know, working on the case, identifying
Speaker 1: resources supports for him outside. And the court said, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's let Brendan go home. Right, He's not a danger
Speaker 1: to this community. I believe in him. I can see
Speaker 1: it's going to be fine, So let's release him. And
Speaker 1: we had an order directing the State of Wisconsin to
Speaker 1: release Brendan Dacy and came within about twelve hours of
Speaker 1: getting Brendan out before the State of Wisconsin asked the
Speaker 1: appeals court to block that order and they did. So,
Speaker 1: you know, okay, we go forward with the appeal. The
Speaker 1: state files its brief, we file our briefs, we argue
Speaker 1: it out in court before the appeals court, the federal
Speaker 1: appeals courts, and again, right, we're trying to thread the
Speaker 1: eye of the needle. Here we wait and wait and
Speaker 1: wait for our verdict, for our decision. And we'd won
Speaker 1: again right, two to one. If this is in front
Speaker 1: of three judges, we'd won two to one, which is
Speaker 1: another moment of great joy in celebration. Two to one.
Speaker 1: I'll take it. Except please notice that as we studied
Speaker 1: this decision was two to one decision, there was suddenly
Speaker 1: another judge in America who would have ruled to keep
Speaker 1: Brendan Dacy still in prison. Right. And the more we
Speaker 1: read that dissenting judge's opinion, we realized that it read
Speaker 1: like in open invitation for the state of Wisconsin to
Speaker 1: try this very rare leo maneuver a rehearing on bank
Speaker 1: where you throw out the appeal and redo it in
Speaker 1: front of the full court. And that's exactly what they did.
Speaker 1: We argued that case and lost by a single vote,
Speaker 1: four to three. Steve and I are not done fighting
Speaker 1: for Brendan, and the world isn't either, and the Wisconsin
Speaker 1: ights aren't either. Right, So today we have filed a
Speaker 1: petition with the governor of Wisconsin asking that he grant
Speaker 1: Brendan clemency, that he release Brendon Dassy from prison. It's
Speaker 1: the only person in the world with the power to
Speaker 1: do that, Governor Tony Evers. We hear so much from
Speaker 1: people in state, out of state, right, people from all
Speaker 1: over all four corners of Wisconsin, Madison, Milwaukee, but up
Speaker 1: in Superior, up in Green Bay, out in Eau Claire.
Speaker 1: I get these messages constantly from people who I just
Speaker 1: think it's time for Brennan to come home. You know,
Speaker 1: it's pastime. And you know, we're honored to be in
Speaker 1: a position where we can hopefully show the governor it's
Speaker 1: the right time to do this.
Speaker 2: Yes, and the good news is that, by all accounts,
Speaker 2: this governor is a reasonable man. He's had experience. He's
Speaker 2: visited a juvenile detention facilities one of the first things
Speaker 2: he did.
Speaker 1: That, that's right, he did. And he comes from the
Speaker 1: education system. You know, he was the head of the
Speaker 1: Wisconsin Board of Education before he assumed the governor's office.
Speaker 1: So this is somebody who understands. You know, Brendan was
Speaker 1: a tenth grader in the public school special education system, right,
Speaker 1: That's who he was in many ways, it's still who
Speaker 1: he is.
Speaker 2: Brendan. You know, one of the things I was personally
Speaker 2: so struck by was when we spoke yesterday about your
Speaker 2: dreams for after you get out what you want to
Speaker 2: do in the world. Do you mind sort of talking
Speaker 2: about that a little bit.
Speaker 4: I mean, like getting into making and playing video games.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and hopefully getting paid for it. Yeah. We
Speaker 2: always I think it was Laura that asked you, if
Speaker 2: you had a superpower, what would.
Speaker 1: That's right, That's always one of my favorite questions to ask, Brendan.
Speaker 4: I would want to have the power to heal illnesses
Speaker 4: and diseases all over the world.
Speaker 2: And where do you think that comes from? Like, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's a great superpower. I'd like to have it too.
Speaker 2: But of all the things, why do you think that
Speaker 2: one is the one that came to your mind.
Speaker 4: Well, I just like helping people, so I wanted to
Speaker 4: help other people in the world.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, there's a lot of people that want
Speaker 2: to help you too, and it's amazing. We talked about
Speaker 2: yesterday how many letters you get. Do you figure you've
Speaker 2: gotten letters from every state in the country by now,
Speaker 2: all fifty states.
Speaker 4: It's got to be close.
Speaker 2: Uh huh, you.
Speaker 1: Know, Brendan, why don't you tell them some of the
Speaker 1: countries that people have sent you letters from? Do you
Speaker 1: remember some of the.
Speaker 4: Countries Singapore, Ireland, Iceland, South America, Canada, Hawaii, New Zealand.
Speaker 1: Too, Yeah, even Australia, right, Australia, it's amazing, and also
Speaker 1: some from Wisconsin. Right. Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2: So there's tens of millions of people now all over
Speaker 2: the world, as you know, who have watched Making a
Speaker 2: Murderer have learned about your story. Do you want to
Speaker 2: see the show when you get out? Are you interested?
Speaker 4: I might eat. I don't know if I can.
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, you mean it might be hard to watch.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, more or less because I lived it,
Speaker 4: So why would I want to watch it again?
Speaker 2: Really understandable after everything you've been through and all the
Speaker 2: twists and turns and the freedom being sort of, you know,
Speaker 2: yanked away from you twice? Really?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: What was that? Like? Your bags were packed, right, You're
Speaker 2: ready to go home, and then they pulled the rug
Speaker 2: out from under you. I mean I would think that
Speaker 2: would make somebody crazy.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I I was a little depressed, you know, and
Speaker 4: called my mom that night and you know I was,
Speaker 4: I was upset, you know, and so she was she
Speaker 4: you know, she thought I was going to be coming home,
Speaker 4: you know, and I was willing to give up all
Speaker 4: my stuff, you know, just walk out the doors with nothing.
Speaker 2: Right, So you were going to give it to some
Speaker 2: of the other guys in there.
Speaker 4: Or either that or or just tell all the prison
Speaker 4: that they can keep it.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, you weren't going to need it anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what helps you sort of get through this, Brendon?
Speaker 1: As this was all happening to you, Where did you
Speaker 1: find your strength?
Speaker 4: Mostly having my family support me and have.
Speaker 2: My back, Yeah, especially your mom, right. Yeah, so it's
Speaker 2: visiting day, right, Yeah, I'll.
Speaker 4: Be getting a visit from my mom tonight. M It
Speaker 4: means everything, you know. They have a family that loves
Speaker 4: and supports me no matter what, and they always have
Speaker 4: my back, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's real is heartening to know that so
Speaker 2: many people care and still care. And what would you
Speaker 2: tell people that want to get involved that have seen
Speaker 2: your story didn't really have any idea of what goes
Speaker 2: on in our justice system, but now they do. Is
Speaker 2: there anything particular that you could advise someone.
Speaker 4: Just keep fighting for me and keep showing your love
Speaker 4: and support.
Speaker 2: And then there's a lot of ways to do that,
Speaker 2: and going to Innocenceproject dot org is a good place
Speaker 2: to start, Laura. Are there other places people can go
Speaker 2: to learn more about this case and to follow your
Speaker 2: progress and the progress and getting Brendan home.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Folks can go to CWCY dot org. That's the
Speaker 1: Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth. You can learn a
Speaker 1: lot more about Brendan's case, read as legal papers and
Speaker 1: follow developments as they happen.
Speaker 2: And do you have social media yourself that we can
Speaker 2: tag you in here because we want to have people
Speaker 2: follow you and your progress, not only on Brenda's case,
Speaker 2: but also on all the other amazing work that you're doing.
Speaker 1: I do, I do. I'm on Instagram and Twitter both
Speaker 1: at Laura and I writer.
Speaker 2: That's easy, that's at Laura and I writer.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: And now, as regular listeners of the show know, it's
Speaker 2: time for the best part of the show, closing arguments,
Speaker 2: where I get to just kick back in my chair
Speaker 2: turn my microphone off. First of all, thank you again
Speaker 2: for taking the time to share your thoughts and your
Speaker 2: perspective and your spirit with me. And with our audience,
Speaker 2: And of course thank you Laura for arranging this and
Speaker 2: for being such a passionate, dedicated, obsessive justice fighter, and
Speaker 2: for being on the show. So Laura, first, thank you
Speaker 2: for being here.
Speaker 1: Thanks for giving this opportunity to let the world hear
Speaker 1: who Brendan Naci is. You know, there have been so
Speaker 1: many people out there who watched Making a Murderer and
Speaker 1: were moved disturbed Brendan's story, and who've reached out to
Speaker 1: us to ask what they can do to help Brendan.
Speaker 1: There's something really easy you can do. Maybe this upcoming weekend,
Speaker 1: you find yourself in the extra ten minutes a time,
Speaker 1: think about sending him a letter. Right. These letters don't
Speaker 1: have to be long, they don't have to be powerful,
Speaker 1: but just tell him, you know, keep your head high.
Speaker 1: I believe in you. Right, we're fighting for you. It'll
Speaker 1: happen for you. These letters are such a small gesture
Speaker 1: on the part of every one of us, but they
Speaker 1: sustain him, right. They give him hope every day, and
Speaker 1: that gives us the hope we need to keep on fighting.
Speaker 1: So find his address on the Wisconsin Department of Corrections website.
Speaker 1: He's in the Oshkosh Correctional Institution. Reach out to him,
Speaker 1: let him know he's got friends all over the world
Speaker 1: who believe in him. If you want to get involved
Speaker 1: in other ways, you can do that. You can educate yourself.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of other books, films, TV shows
Speaker 1: about wrongful conviction. Right, Brendan is not the only one.
Speaker 1: Get out there. Watch when they see us, Right, Watch
Speaker 1: the Paradise Last series about the West Memphis three or
Speaker 1: West of Memphis. Watch You Murder on a Sunday morning, Right,
Speaker 1: watch the confession tapes. You can see incredible shows, read
Speaker 1: incredible books about this happening over and over, some of
Speaker 1: which we've mentioned today, and you can get out there.
Speaker 1: Of course, you can support organizations like the Center on
Speaker 1: Wrongful Convictions or the Innocence Project or a lot of
Speaker 1: other incredible organizations that do this work. But most importantly, right,
Speaker 1: don't stop saying Brendan Dacy's name. Get out there on
Speaker 1: social media, remember him, Keep insisting that the people with
Speaker 1: power in this system do justice for Brendan. Write letters
Speaker 1: to the governor of Wisconsin. Tell him what you see
Speaker 1: when you see Brendan on TV. Tell him what you
Speaker 1: hear when you hear Brendan on a podcast like this,
Speaker 1: especially if you live in Wisconsin, tell him you want
Speaker 1: Brendan home. That's the difference that you can make. It's
Speaker 1: a huge difference. We rely on people like you to
Speaker 1: light the way, to show the path. We're doing the
Speaker 1: right thing here. So thank you to everybody who's written
Speaker 1: to Brendan. Keep doing it, keep showing your support. Let's
Speaker 1: get him home together.
Speaker 2: And Brendan, thank you again for you know, letting me
Speaker 2: come see you and for spending time on the air
Speaker 2: with us today. And now I get to leave it
Speaker 2: open for you to say whatever you want as we
Speaker 2: close the show.
Speaker 4: I don't know what to say. I love Pokemon and
Speaker 4: my favorite Pokemon is Mew. But there's a new one
Speaker 4: coming out called El Creamy that I really like, and
Speaker 4: hopefully I get to see some of the more new
Speaker 4: ones coming out pretty soon.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm.
Speaker 2: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the
Speaker 2: link in our bio to see how you can help.
Speaker 2: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburn,
Speaker 2: and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show as always
Speaker 2: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
Speaker 2: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
Speaker 2: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Speaker 2: Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and
Speaker 2: association with Signal Company Number one