WEBVTT - #225 Jason Flom and Laura Nirider with Brendan Dassey 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:08.879 Hey guys, it's Laura. Today. October second is International Wrongful 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:11.920 Conviction Day, and to mark this day, we're re releasing 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.160 an episode that first came out exactly two years ago. 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:17.920 It's an episode that's really close to my heart because 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:22.239 it features my longtime clients and friend, Brendan Dacy. Here's 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.360 a quick update on worthings stand with Brendan. Although Wisconsin 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.560 Governor Tony Evers denied Brendan clemency in twenty nineteen, we're 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.360 still fighting to free him and we've been joined by 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.720 an army of supporters, everyone from legal experts to everyday people. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.120 In fact, I want to shout out one particularly dedicated 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.360 group of online supporters that's been doing some pretty incredible 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.800 work over the past year. They've done everything from organizing 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:52.280 email campaigns to placing free Brendan Dasy billboards along Wisconsin highways. 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.480 Their message has reached more than one point eight million 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.400 people so far. Their dedication is amazing, and yours is tuo. 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.040 So to all of Brendan's supporters and to Brendan himself 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.080 and so many others like him. We're re releasing this 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:07.200 episode for you. 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.480 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flumm, you know 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.560 many of our listeners. Most of our listeners have seen 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:22.080 the Netflix original series Making a Murderer. It's the story 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:24.520 of Stephen Avery, a guy from the wrong side of 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.600 the tracks whose family owned an auto salvage yard in Manitoa, Wisconsin. 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.560 It starts off in nineteen eighty five, where Stephen Avery 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.800 was wrongfully convicted of a sexual assault, for which he 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.120 was exonerated eighteen years later when the DNA in the 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.600 case was found to match another man and his alibis 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:45.440 were proven to have been true all along. After his release, 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.320 in two thousand and three, Avery filed a thirty six 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:52.360 million dollars civil suit against Manitoa County, Wisconsin and several 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.440 of its officials. Fast forward to two thousand and five. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.400 Teresa Halbach, a photographer known to have been photographing cars 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.240 on the Avery property when missing. The handling of the 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.800 investigation was quite controversial, to say the least, with issues 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:09.200 of evidence tampering, not to mention the obvious conflict of 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.880 interest in allowing Manitoa County to investigate the very same 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:17.239 man who was suing them for thirty six million dollars. However, 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.880 all of that aside The most damning piece of evidence 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.320 came in the form of a false confession from Avery's nephew, 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:28.120 Brendan Dacy, a sixteen year old boy with no criminal 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:34.000 record and serious mental challenges. Now, I'm honored to present 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.639 the exclusive, the one and only interview that Brendan has 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:43.360 ever given to anyone joining us has esteemed appellad attorney 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.640 from the Center on Romful Convictions at Northwestern University. My 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:55.799 friend Laura and nightrider. Laura was kind enough to pick 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.760 me up from the airport in Chicago and we drove 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.280 out to Oshkosh Correctional Facility for a pre interview behind 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:06.120 bars with Brandon. This left us with both time to 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:11.840 talk and plenty to talk about. We have had a 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.760 very eventful last twenty four hours. 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:16.880 Yeah, you know, it's been a trip I've done so 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:21.520 many times for going on twelve years now, and you know, 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:23.680 it was a trip I hoped to never have to 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:26.120 make again. That it's a trip that you know what 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:28.400 we're going to keep on doing for as long as 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.880 we have to do. Right, go out there, support him, 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:32.520 and I'm just glad you had a chance to see 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:34.720 who Brendan is, you know, to really spend some time 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:36.640 with him and get to know him, because he's he's 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:37.640 a pretty incredible guy. 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:42.920 Brandon is a very powerful example of a phenomenon that 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.200 amazes me and keeps me going and drives me onward 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:50.880 in this fight, which is that there is an absolute 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:58.640 and total absence of malice, anger, bitterness, self pity. Like 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:00.880 I don't even think he knows what those emotions are. 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.160 He's an incredible guy. I mean, you know, he was 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.240 sixteen when he went in. He's twenty nine years old now. 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:09.880 And during that whole period of time of knowing him, 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:14.000 You're right, I mean, Brendan is a sweet soul. You know, 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:16.720 he's a he's a simple guy. He's a funny guy. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:21.400 He's gentle, he's so gentle and kind shallow. No, no, 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:21.760 he's not. 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:25.560 That's right, And in his story is one of extreme juxtaposition, right, 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:30.159 because he went from being a very childlike young person 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:35.279 adolescent into a very extreme grown up situation. You got 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:37.880 involved with Brennan's case at what stage? 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.240 Well, let's start with Steve Drisen, my colleague on the case. 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.960 In two thousand and seven, about three months after Brendan 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.400 was convicted. At his trial, Steve was asked to handle 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:54.520 Brendan's appeals going forward because of his expertise around interrogations 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:55.520 and confessions. 0:04:55.520 --> 0:05:00.240 Two thousand and sevens this is lost. Yes, he was 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.680 just another of the two point two million people in prison. 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.719 That right, that's right, and Steve took the case. Now 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:09.760 this is two thousand and seven. Okay. So at the time, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.560 Steve was teaching here at Northwestern Law School, and I 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.880 was a third year law student in Steve's class on 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:21.920 wrongful convictions. Now, I didn't intend to practice criminal law. 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:23.839 I actually had a career all mapped out for myself 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.599 as a business lawyer. I was going to go do that. 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:28.599 I had a job lined up after graduation. I knew 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.640 nothing at a law from here in town, here in Chicago, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.559 And you know, I knew nothing about the criminal justice system. 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.920 I knew nothing about wrongful convictions. I definitely knew nothing 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:41.360 about false confessions. But I'd signed up for Steve's class, 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:43.840 you know, on a whim, try to do something off 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.400 the beaten path. And a few months into that fall 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.840 semester of my last year of law school, that's you know, 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.680 Steve called me into his office and he said, I've 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.719 just gotten involved in a case from Wisconsin involving a 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:05.440 six teen year old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:09.440 to a crime that I don't think he committed. And 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:15.080 he handed me the interrogation videos from Brendan Dazzy's case, right, 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.520 the same videos that years and years later ended up 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.320 in making a murder. And he told me to go 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.120 watch them. So I went home. I sat down on 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:23.840 my couch, I got out my laptop, because this is 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.600 two thousand and seven, I pop in these DVDs and 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.640 I watched them all right, from start to finish, their 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:35.719 confession tapes. Yeah, and my heart broke, and I knew 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:37.200 that this is it. This is what I had to 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.479 do with, you know, fight for people like Brendan. So, 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.159 you know, no more business law for me. I came 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.840 back to Northwestern after graduating, and for the last twelve years, 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.360 I've been building with Steve the Center on Wrongful Convictions, 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.719 where we represent Brendan and other kids just like him. 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.479 So for the people who may not have seen making 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.279 a murder, and there are those who listen to our 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.360 show who haven't seen, Yeah, what was it? What was 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.120 the moment? What was it about those tapes? 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:06.279 Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I actually remember 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.159 the moment. Right. It's so this is a videotape of 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:10.200 the entire interrogation. 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:10.440 Right. 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:13.440 He was actually questioned four times over forty eight hours, 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.800 and it was only the last interrogation that produced the confession. 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:18.600 You know, which I which I say in quotation marks. 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.120 But this is an interrogation where they're asking Brendan about murder. Right, 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:24.720 this is a murder case. So they want to ask 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:28.000 him about, you know, how was the victim in this case? 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.440 How was Teresa Halbach killed? Right? And and these police 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:33.880 going into the interrogation, they know, or they think they 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:36.640 know based on their own investigation, that she had been 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.000 shot in the head. So they're waiting for Brendan to 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.040 describe shooting somebody in the head, right, So they ask him, 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.440 you know, Brendan, how did you guys, you know, how 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.239 did you kill Teresa Hallbach? 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.880 And he says, we choked her. 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.760 Well, that's that's not right. So they said, I'm okay, 0:07:57.880 --> 0:07:59.320 you know what else, Brendan, what else did you do 0:07:59.360 --> 0:07:59.640 to her? 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.040 Did he do it? When we know something else was done? 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:04.280 We stabbed her? 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:08.080 Still not right, So they actually started not even close, 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:10.880 So they start dropping him hints right. They say, come on, Brendan, 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.320 something with the head, something with the head. What else 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:16.040 did you guys do to her? And Brendan says, we 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:19.680 punched her and that's still not right. So it's like 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.800 Brendan's completely at sea and he says, you know, we 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.880 we cut off her hair and his voice goes up 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.760 like that like he's asking a question and no, no, no, Brendan, 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:33.360 come on, what else? What else? Something with the head? 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:33.720 What else? 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:35.920 What else? What else was done to her head? 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:37.640 And this goes on and on and on, and finally 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.680 Brendan he must get exhausted and he just says, remember, 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:46.760 And the officers at that point say to him, Brendan, 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:49.600 I'm just going to come out and ask you. 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:51.240 All right, I'm just going to come out and ask 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:52.800 him who shot her in the hat? 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.560 And you know, Brendan says, well, that was that was 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.440 my uncle Stephen. And then, you know, comes one of 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.880 the most heartbreaking moments of the entire interrogation, because I 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:05.000 say to him, Brendan, why didn't you just tell us that? 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:06.520 Why didn't you tell us that? 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:15.079 And he says, because I couldn't think of it right. 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:27.760 He was guessing. Yeah, So let's say you're not convinced 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.120 the way I am that Brendan was guessing. Let's say 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.400 for a moment that the story was true, that this 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.440 bloody attack occurred in Stephen Avery's bedroom the way that 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:41.040 Brendan's confession claimed that it did. You'd expect that bedroom 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:45.480 and that bed to be covered with forensic evidence, blood 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:49.520 from a stabbing and throat cutting, hair from when her 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.200 hair was supposedly cut. I mean, think about how hard 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:56.840 it is to clean up hair. And of course, after 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.880 Brendan gave his confession, the police went back to Stephen 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.120 Avery's bedroom and they searched it for evidence to corroborate 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.240 the confession. They searched the bed, They searched the bedding, 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:12.120 the mattress, the headboard, the bed frame. They looked at 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.880 the carpet underneath the bed. They pulled that carpet back 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.840 and looked underneath the carpet. They even took the paneling 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.040 off the walls in the bedroom, searching for a single 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:29.840 molecule of Teresa Halbach's DNA or Brendan Dacy's DNA, and 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:36.600 they found nothing. This story didn't happen. It's made up. 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.480 The day after our face to face meeting at Oshkosh Correctional, 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.320 we did our formal interview with Brendan over the phone 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.480 from Laura's office at Northwestern University. 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:53.960 Not God Correctional Label. 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:04.520 Hello, Hi, Brendan. It seems like only yesterday that I 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.600 saw you, because it was only yesterday. Yeah, And it 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.520 was great to meet you. You know, Laura and I 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.200 had a long ride back to Chicago, and obviously we 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.679 talked about you a lot and things that we are 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.600 hoping to do to make a difference for you and 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:26.080 with you. I mean, we'll wait for the announcement to 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:31.880 go by. You went through an ordeal that even those 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.000 of us that have seen the show and have seen 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.360 on video parts of what happened, obviously we couldn't see 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.360 the whole thing, but none of us can understand what 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.280 it would be like to be in your shoes, you know, 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:48.200 to be in this impossible situation of being a really 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.800 a child at sixteen. You're still a child, You're not 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:56.200 a grown man, and to be going to this interrogation 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:01.480 where you have grown men who are interrogating you for days, 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.120 without a parent, without a lawyer, without anyone to help you. 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.240 I mean, were you scared or were you just thought 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.400 maybe if you just told the truth, everything would be fine, 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.480 or what was your thought process at that point? 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:15.560 Well, I just wanted it all over with, so I 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:17.800 said whatever they wanted to hear. 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:22.200 You know, most people grow up as I did, with 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.559 believing that the law enforcement are out to help us, right, 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.560 the people you call when you need help. Did you 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:30.680 have that same idea when you went in there? 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.680 Yeah, I thought maybe anything I can do to help them, 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:35.320 you know I would. 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.959 So was there a point when you were in that 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:45.600 horrible room where you started to worry about the outcome, 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.520 or that you thought that these men may have been 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.760 not as well intentioned as you originally thought. 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.840 Yeah, when they started saying that that I wasn't telling 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:02.800 the truth and that that my story didn't fit the 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:06.040 facts that they had, that's when I started getting worried. 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:09.319 There's a very good reason your story didn't fit the 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:13.000 vaccas you didn't know the facts. Yeah, so, Brandon, you 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.240 remember there was a time when the interrogators left the 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.520 room for a few minutes and your mom came back 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.840 into the room. Yeah, beautiful life. 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:34.000 To say, did you huh not? Really? We do you 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:47.000 need not really, huh what do you mean by that? 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.640 So was that the first time you had seen your 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:53.720 mom since they had started interrogating you? 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:56.840 Yeah, that is okay. 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:58.880 So what was it like to see her after being 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:01.200 alone with those interrogators for such a long time? 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.880 I felt that I could be safe and I could 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:06.880 tell her the truth. You know that they got into 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:11.000 my head, They got me to say whatever they wanted. 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:26.200 Do you think either before, during, or after that, the 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:31.120 detectives conducting that interrogation knew or realized that he was 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:32.480 actually innocent? 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.360 You know, it's a very good question, and it's something 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:40.320 I've asked myself right over and over again. This is 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.280 just my opinion, but I think that they were worried 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.720 that something had gone wrong. Brendan's already been in the 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.480 box for about three and a half hours. He's adopted 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.680 their their theories that he committed rape and murder and 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:55.560 the whole thing. And the story is over, it's done, 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:57.640 it's locked, and they let her into the room, and 0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:59.600 the cameras are still rolling in the room, right and 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:01.920 they leave two of them alone. You know, it's my 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:06.080 theory that they were outside watching this all unclosed circuit 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.920 camera hoping that Brendan was going to make more admissions 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.240 to his mother. Instead, he recants one of the clearest 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.840 recantations I've ever heard, Right, Brendan using his own words, 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.520 his own ability to express himself, to tell his mom 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.120 what he had just been through. They got to my head. 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:30.520 And at that moment, the officers come barging back through 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.800 that door into the interrogation room, and Brendan doesn't say 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:36.080 another word. 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:39.480 Yeah, I'm getting the chills. I mean, as a parent, 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.760 it's just so heartbreaking. And look, I always say, there 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:44.560 are a lot of very good people in our criminal 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.920 justice system, but the ones who do the types of 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.000 things that were done to Brendan. I mean, there's a 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:51.720 lot of villains in this story. 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:53.360 Right, some unbelievable characters in the story. 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:58.640 Yeah, and so the system that was designed in theory 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:01.080 to protect the innocent and this case, to protect Brendan 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:03.360 failed at every level. 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:03.920 Right. 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.240 I mean you're starting in the interrogation room, that's right, 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:07.960 starting with the fact that they targeted him in the 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.400 first place. I don't really understand. I mean, I have 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:12.320 a theory in my own head about why they may 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.800 have done that, and maybe we'll never know, but it 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:16.960 seems like to me they wanted to build a stronger 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.440 case against Stephen, no doubt about it, and so they 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:21.480 went for the weakest length, no doubt about right. They 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:25.040 knew that small community, they knew that Brendan was a 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:25.760 simple person. 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:27.360 Well, that's right. And you know, one of the things 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.160 about Brendan, of course, he's got disabilities. Everybody knows that. 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.880 But his disabilities in particular are clustered around speech. The 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.040 way he speaks, the way he hears language, the way 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:40.600 he processes words, and the way he uses his own words. Right, 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.280 So you know, this is not a person who can 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:47.240 sort of weave sophisticated stories or lies or things like that. 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.320 And of course these are disabilities that are at the 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.960 center of an interrogation, right, the sort of sophisticated level 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.640 of conversation talking about you know, what could happen to 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.400 him if he didn't confess because there was a threat 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.040 in this case, what happened to him if he didn't 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:03.240 start adopting the story that was being fed to him. 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:04.879 What was going to happen on the other hand, if 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.520 he if he did agree to go along with the story. 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:09.960 You know, this is a really hard situation for someone 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:14.880 like brendan sixteen special education student in Wisconsin public schools, 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:16.760 a hard situation for him to navigate. He did the 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:18.200 best he could. 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:19.919 For as long as he could, for as long as 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:20.200 he could. 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:24.320 Four times over forty eight hours, these officers questioned him. 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:26.240 And yeah, this should have been a first round knockout. 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.840 Oh my god, he held up as long as he could. 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:36.159 We've been investiating a lot, it is. We already know 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:38.320 what happened. To be a lot easier on you if 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.200 you live on it, that's going to be wrong. I'm 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.280 your friends, Really, it's on fair place, on crap. You're 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.879 an honest person, you get a better dealt of you 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:47.040 going to believe on network. 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.280 I don't believe in your archetical You can't make any propises, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:51.359 but we'll stand behind you. 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:53.600 Your mom sid you'd be honest when she's behind you. 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.840 What happens? She thinks you know more to and you're 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:57.560 more borner. 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.800 We already know what happened on toss exactly. 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.159 What would you tell people when they're sitting in that 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:15.520 jury box and they're listening to incredible testimony videotapes. Yes, 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.399 I'm someone going yeah I did it? Yeah, So what 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.400 should peopleatch because some confessions are true. 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:22.200 Of course, some confessions are true. Those are the ones 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:23.920 we want, right, it's you know, we got to screen 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:24.760 out the false confession. 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:25.600 So what do they look for? 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.240 Okay? So the big message, right, A confession is just 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:33.600 a piece of evidence, like any other piece of evidence. Right, 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.840 Sometimes it can be misleading, and you question it and 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:38.720 you examine it in the same way that you'd ask 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.720 you know, critical questions, intelligent questions about any other piece 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:44.840 of evidence. Right, can I trust what this person is saying? 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.760 So when you see a confession like Brendan Darcy's, where 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.919 somebody is getting the facts of the crime wrong unless 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.919 they're being told the right answer, that's a red flag. 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:56.960 Right. 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:00.720 It happens throughout Brendan's interrogation, details learned and small he 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.840 can't come up with. He's guessing, and he guesses wrong, 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:06.879 actually until he gets strained out by the officers. Not 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.960 just about how Teresa Holbach was killed. But he can't 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.399 decide if a shirt was black or white, right, he 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:15.440 doesn't know what the right answer is. Has he never 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:17.240 met her because he never saw her, that's right. He 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.240 can't decide if the fire was started at three PM 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.320 or later on in the evening after dark, right, I 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.760 mean he doesn't know these things. He's just guessing all 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.760 over the place. And you see this repeatedly throughout false 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.119 confession cases, because what you have in those cases are 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.600 people who had nothing to do with the crime trying 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.160 to say something that sounds believable to satisfy their interrogators. 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.000 Almost everybody I've ever met says the same thing. I 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:44.080 am not that guy. I'm smart, I'm capable, I'm strong, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:45.919 I'm not confessing with crime and then commitment. 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.440 Everybody thinks this, right, Well, that's for other people, right, 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:51.399 That's for you know, maybe mentally impaired people, that's for 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.119 children maybe. So what you have to understand is that 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:58.399 interrogation is a carefully orchestrated set of psychological tactics that 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.679 are designed to get people off their belief in their 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.280 own innocence and designed to actually make them believe that 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.639 it will help them, that it will improve their situation, 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:11.920 that it will benefit them to say they did these 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:17.000 things that the officers think. Right, These are incredibly powerful techniques, 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:19.840 and every single one of us has a breaking point, 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:24.760 and these techniques are designed to find it. So how 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:26.760 does this work, right, So the way this basically works, 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:31.760 interrogation is generally a two stage process. The first half 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.520 is all about confrontation and reducing you down to hopelessness. Right, 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.520 we know you did this. I've got so much evidence 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:40.560 against you. No one is going to believe you when 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.080 you say you're innocent. Right, I've got three people in 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:45.119 the room next door who picked you out of a lineup. 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:47.280 I've got your DNA on the scene, I've got your 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:49.960 fingerprints on the gun. Even if none of that is true. 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:53.240 By the way, it's perfectly legal for the police to lie. 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.960 That's right. Not the UK, that's right, but here it's 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:59.480 perfectly legal for the police to lie during interrogations. So 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:01.399 they bring you down to hopelessness. Right, I'm not going 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:03.280 to listen to you say you're innocent. You're just making 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:05.760 it worse off for yourself. No one's going to believe you. 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:10.520 You're caught, you're trapped, you're screwed, You've got nothing. And 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:14.120 then when you reach that point of hopelessness, that's when 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:19.840 they offer you an out right a life raft confession. 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:25.200 It's going to help you. If you confess, you will 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:26.919 go easy on you. You know, I'll go talk to 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:28.920 the judge. Right, I'll see what I can do for you. 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:30.840 Things are going to be so much better for you. 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.640 You've got a whole life to live in front of you. 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:35.600 You're just a kid. People are going to understand that 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:38.160 over and over. But I need to hear the story 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:38.600 from you. 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:39.440 Right. 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:41.919 People are going to understand that you deserve help if 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:43.880 you cooperate. That's how it works. 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:44.120 Right. 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:50.159 These techniques are incredibly good at getting true confessions, but 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:54.000 they are so potent that they also get false confessions. 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:57.159 And this actually we're sitting here in Chicago, which is 0:21:57.160 --> 0:21:59.400 where this was originated, right, the read. 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.280 Technique read technique actually even better than that. It's originated 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:04.280 here out of the work of a professor at Northwestern 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:06.680 Law School. Oh my god, back in the nineteen forties, right, 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:11.080