Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Laura. Today. October second is International Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction Day, and to mark this day, we're rereleasing an
Speaker 1: episode that first came out exactly two years ago. It's
Speaker 1: an episode that's really close to my heart because it
Speaker 1: features my longtime clients and friend, Brendan Dascy. Here's a
Speaker 1: quick update on worthy stand with Brendan. Although Wisconsin Governor
Speaker 1: Tony Evers denied Brendan clemency in we're still fighting to
Speaker 1: free him and we've been joined by an army of supporters,
Speaker 1: everyone from legal experts to everyday people. In fact, I
Speaker 1: want to shout out one particularly dedicated group of online
Speaker 1: supporters that's been doing some pretty incredible work over the
Speaker 1: past year. They've done everything from organizing email campaigns to
Speaker 1: placing free Brendan Dascy billboards along Wisconsin highways. Their message
Speaker 1: has reached more than one point eight million people so far.
Speaker 1: Their dedication is amazing and yours is too. So to
Speaker 1: all of Brendan' supporters and to Brendan himself and so
Speaker 1: many others like him, we're rereleasing this episode for you.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flum. You know
Speaker 1: many of our listeners. Most of our listeners have seen
Speaker 1: the Netflix original series Making a Murderer. It's the story
Speaker 1: of Stephen Avery, a guy from the wrong side of
Speaker 1: the tracks whose family owned an auto salvage yard and Manitowac, Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: It starts off in where and Stephen Avery was wrongfully
Speaker 1: convicted of a sexual assault, for which he was exonerated
Speaker 1: eighteen years later when the DNA in the case was
Speaker 1: found to match another man and his alibis were proven
Speaker 1: to have been true all along. After his release. In
Speaker 1: two thousand three, Avery file the thirty six million dollars
Speaker 1: civil suit against Manitowa County, Wisconsin, and several of its officials.
Speaker 1: Fast forward to two thousand five, Teresa Hauback, a photographer
Speaker 1: known to have been photographing cars on the Avery property,
Speaker 1: went missing. The handling of the investigation was quite controversial,
Speaker 1: to say the least, with issues of evidence tampering, not
Speaker 1: to mention the obvious conflict of interest in allowing Manitoa
Speaker 1: County to investigate the very same man who was suing
Speaker 1: them for thirty six million dollars. However, all of that aside,
Speaker 1: the most damning piece of evidence came in the form
Speaker 1: of a false confession from Avery's nephew, Brendon Dascy, a
Speaker 1: sixteen year old boy with no criminal record and serious
Speaker 1: mental challenges. Now I'm honored to present the exclusive, the
Speaker 1: one and only interview that Brendan has ever given to
Speaker 1: anyone joining us has Esteemed Appella, attorney from the Center
Speaker 1: on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University, my friend Laura Ni Rider.
Speaker 1: Laura was kind enough to pick me up from the
Speaker 1: airport in Chicago and we drove out to Oshkosh Kara
Speaker 1: Scational Facility for a pre interview behind bars with Brendon.
Speaker 1: This left us with both time to talk and plenty
Speaker 1: to talk about. We have had a very eventful last
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. Yeah, you know, it's been a trip
Speaker 1: I've done so many times for going on twelve years now,
Speaker 1: and you know, I was a trip I hoped to
Speaker 1: never have to make again. But it's a trip that,
Speaker 1: you know what, We're going to keep on doing um
Speaker 1: for as long as we have to do right, go
Speaker 1: out there support him, and I'm just glad he had
Speaker 1: a chance to see who Brendan is, you know, to
Speaker 1: really spend some time with him and get to know
Speaker 1: him because he's a he's a pretty incredible guy. Brendon
Speaker 1: is a very powerful example of a phenomenon that amazes
Speaker 1: me and keeps me going and drives me onward in
Speaker 1: this fight, which is that there is an absolute and
Speaker 1: total absence of malice, anger, bitterness, self pity. Like I
Speaker 1: don't even think he knows what those emotions are. He's
Speaker 1: an incredible guy. I mean, you know, he was sixteen
Speaker 1: when he went in. He's twenty nine years old now.
Speaker 1: And during that whole period of time of knowing him,
Speaker 1: You're right, I mean, Brendan is a sweet soul. You know,
Speaker 1: he's a he's a simple guy. He's a funny guy.
Speaker 1: He's gentle. He's so gentle and kind, but not shallow
Speaker 1: and he no, no, he's not. That's right, And in
Speaker 1: his story is one of extreme juxtaposition. Right, But because
Speaker 1: he went from being a very childlike young person adolescent
Speaker 1: into a very extreme grown up situation. You got involved
Speaker 1: with Brendan's case at what stage? Well, let's start with
Speaker 1: Steve Drisen, my colleague on the case. In two thousand seven,
Speaker 1: about three months after Brendan was convicted. At his trial,
Speaker 1: Steve was asked to handle Brendan's appeals going forward because
Speaker 1: of his expertise around interrogations and confessions. Yes, it was
Speaker 1: just another of the two point two million people in prison,
Speaker 1: and Steve took the case. Now this is two thousand seven, Okay.
Speaker 1: So at the time, Steve was teaching here at Northwestern
Speaker 1: Law School, and I was a third year law student
Speaker 1: in Steve's class on wrongful convictions. Now, I didn't intend
Speaker 1: to practice criminal law. I actually had a career all
Speaker 1: mapped out for myself as a business lawyer. I was
Speaker 1: going to go do that. I had a job lined
Speaker 1: up after graduation. I knew nothing at a law firm
Speaker 1: here in town, here in Chicago. And you know, I
Speaker 1: knew nothing about the criminal justice system. I knew nothing
Speaker 1: about wrongful convictions. I definitely knew nothing about false confessions.
Speaker 1: But I had signed up for Steve's class, you know,
Speaker 1: on a whim, try to do something off the beaten path.
Speaker 1: And a few months into that fall semester of my
Speaker 1: last year of law school, that's you know, Steve called
Speaker 1: me into his office and he said, I've just gotten
Speaker 1: involved in a case from Wisconsin involving a six teen
Speaker 1: year old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed to a
Speaker 1: crime that I don't think he committed. And he handed
Speaker 1: me the interrogation videos from Brendon Daisy's case, right the
Speaker 1: same videos that years and years later ended up in
Speaker 1: Making a Murderer. And he told me to go watch them.
Speaker 1: So I went home. I sat down on my couch,
Speaker 1: I got at my laptop, because this is two thousand seven,
Speaker 1: I popp in these DVDs and I watched them all right,
Speaker 1: from start to finish, their confession tapes, and my heart
Speaker 1: broke and I knew that this is it. This is
Speaker 1: what I had to do with, you know, fight for
Speaker 1: people like Brendan. So um, you know, no more, no
Speaker 1: more business law for me. I came back to Northwestern
Speaker 1: after graduating, and for the last twelve years I've been
Speaker 1: building with Steve the Center on Wrongful Convictions, where we
Speaker 1: represent Brendon and other kids just like him. So for
Speaker 1: the people who may not have seen Making Murderer, and
Speaker 1: there are those who listen to our show who haven't
Speaker 1: seen it yet, what was it? What was the moment?
Speaker 1: What was it about those tapes? Yeah, it's a great question,
Speaker 1: you know, I actually remember the moment, right it's so
Speaker 1: this is a videotape of the entire interrogation. Right. He
Speaker 1: was actually questioned four times over forty eight hours, and
Speaker 1: it was only the last interrogation that produced the confession.
Speaker 1: You know which I which I say on quotation marks. Um.
Speaker 1: But this is an interrogation where they're asking Brendan about murder. Right,
Speaker 1: this is a murder case. So they want to ask
Speaker 1: him about, you know, how was the victim in this case?
Speaker 1: How was Theresa Hallback killed? Right? And and these police
Speaker 1: going into the interrogation, they know, or they think they
Speaker 1: know based on their own investigation, that she had been
Speaker 1: shot in the head. So they're waiting for Brendan to
Speaker 1: describe shooting somebody in the head, right, So they asked him,
Speaker 1: you know, Brendan, how did you guys? You know, how
Speaker 1: did how did you kill Theresa Halback? And he says,
Speaker 1: we choked her. Well, that's that's not right. So they
Speaker 1: said him, okay, um, you know what else, Brendan, what
Speaker 1: else did you do to her? Did he do it
Speaker 1: where we know something else was done? We stabbed her?
Speaker 1: Still not right, So they actually started not even close,
Speaker 1: so they started dropping him hints, right, They said come on, Brendon,
Speaker 1: something with the head, something with the head. What else
Speaker 1: did you guys do to her? And Brendan says, we
Speaker 1: punched her and that's still not right. So it's like
Speaker 1: Brendan's completely at sea and he says, you know, we
Speaker 1: caught off her hair, her hair, and as voice goes
Speaker 1: up like that like he's asking a question, and no, no, no, Brendan,
Speaker 1: come on, what else? What else? Something with the head?
Speaker 1: What else? What else? What else was done to her head?
Speaker 1: And it goes on and on and on, and finally
Speaker 1: Brendan you he must get exhausted, and he just says
Speaker 1: and the officers at that point say to him, Brendan,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to come out and ask you all
Speaker 1: to come out and ask him who shot her in
Speaker 1: the head, And you know, Brendan says, well, that was
Speaker 1: that was my uncle Stephen. And then, you know, comes
Speaker 1: one of the most heartbreaking moments of the entire interrogation
Speaker 1: because they say to him, Brendan, why didn't you just
Speaker 1: tell us that? Why did you tell us that? And
Speaker 1: he says, because I couldn't think of it right. He
Speaker 1: was guessing. Yeah, So let's say you're not convinced the
Speaker 1: way I am that Brendan was guessing. Let's say for
Speaker 1: a moment that the story was true, that this bloody
Speaker 1: attack occurred in Stephen Avery's bedroom the way that Brendan's
Speaker 1: confession claimed that it did. You'd expect that bedroom and
Speaker 1: that bed to be covered with forensic evidence, blood from
Speaker 1: a stabbing and throat cutting, hair from when her hair
Speaker 1: was supposedly cut. I mean, think about how hard it
Speaker 1: is to clean up hair. And of course, after Brendan
Speaker 1: gave his confession, the police went back to Stephen Avery's
Speaker 1: bedroom and they searched it for evidence to corroborate the confession.
Speaker 1: They searched the bed, They searched the bedding, the mattress,
Speaker 1: the headboard, the bed frame. They looked at the carpet
Speaker 1: underneath the bed. They pulled that carpet back and looked
Speaker 1: underneath the carpet. They even took the paneling off the
Speaker 1: walls in the bedroom, searching for a single molecule of
Speaker 1: Teresa Halbos DNA or Brendon Dancy's DNA, and they found nothing.
Speaker 1: This story didn't happen. It's made up. The day after
Speaker 1: our face to face meeting at Oshkosh Correctional. We did
Speaker 1: our formal interview with Brendan over the phone from Laura's
Speaker 1: office at Northwestern University, pod Gotten directional level. Hello Brendan,
Speaker 1: Hi Brandon. It seems like only yesterday that I saw you,
Speaker 1: because it was only yesterday, and it was great to
Speaker 1: meet you. You know, Laura and I had a long
Speaker 1: ride back to Chicago, and obviously we talked about you
Speaker 1: a lot and things that we are hoping to do
Speaker 1: to make a difference for you and with you, I mean, well,
Speaker 1: to wait for the announcement to go by, you went
Speaker 1: through an ordeal that even those of us that have
Speaker 1: seen the show and have seen on video parts of
Speaker 1: what happened, obviously we couldn't see the whole thing, but
Speaker 1: none of us can understand what it would be like
Speaker 1: to be in your shoes, you know, to be in
Speaker 1: this impossible situation of being a really a child at sixteen.
Speaker 1: You're still a child, You're not a grown man, and
Speaker 1: to be going to this interrogation where you have grown
Speaker 1: men who are interrogating you for days, without a parent,
Speaker 1: without a lawyer, without anyone to help you. I mean,
Speaker 1: were you scared or were you just thought maybe if
Speaker 1: you just told the truth, everything would be fine or
Speaker 1: what was your thought process at that point? Well, I
Speaker 1: just wanted it all over with, so I said whatever
Speaker 1: they wanted to hear. You know, most people grow up
Speaker 1: as I did, with believing that the law enforcement are
Speaker 1: out to help us, right, there are people you call
Speaker 1: when you need help. Did you have that same idea
Speaker 1: when you went in there? Yeah? I thought maybe anything
Speaker 1: I can do to help them, you know I would.
Speaker 1: So was there a point when you're in that horrible
Speaker 1: room where you started to worry about the outcome, or
Speaker 1: that you thought that these men may have been not
Speaker 1: as well intentioned as you originally thought. Yeah, when they
Speaker 1: started saying that that I wasn't telling the truth and
Speaker 1: that that my story didn't fit the facts that they had,
Speaker 1: that's when I started getting worried. There's a very good
Speaker 1: reason your story didn't fit the fact Guys, you didn't
Speaker 1: know the facts. So, Brandon, you remember there was a
Speaker 1: time when the interrogators left the room for a few
Speaker 1: minutes and your mom came back into the room. Ye beautiful, Yeah,
Speaker 1: did you huh? Really do you need not? Really? Huh?
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? So? Was that the
Speaker 1: first time you had seen your mom since they had
Speaker 1: started interrogating you. Yeah, that is okay. So what was
Speaker 1: it like to see her after being alone with those
Speaker 1: interrogator for such a long time. I felt that I
Speaker 1: could be safe and I could tell her the truth.
Speaker 1: You know, that they got into my head, They got
Speaker 1: me to say whatever they wanted. Do you think either before, during,
Speaker 1: or after that, the detectives conducting that interrogation knew or
Speaker 1: realized that he was actually innocent? You know, it's a
Speaker 1: it's a very good question, and it's something I've asked
Speaker 1: myself right over and over again. Um, this is just
Speaker 1: my opinion, But I think that they we're worried that
Speaker 1: something has gone wrong. Brendan's already been in the box
Speaker 1: for about three and a half hours. He's adopted their
Speaker 1: their theories that he committed rape and murder and the
Speaker 1: whole thing. And the story is over, it's done, it's locked,
Speaker 1: and they let her into the room, and the cameras
Speaker 1: are still rolling in the room, right and they leave
Speaker 1: two of them alone. You know, it's my theory that
Speaker 1: they were outside watching this all unclosed circuit camera, hoping
Speaker 1: that Brendan was going to make more admissions to his mother. Instead,
Speaker 1: he recants one of the clearest recantations I've ever heard, Right,
Speaker 1: Brendan using his own words, his own ability to express himself,
Speaker 1: to tell his mom what he had just been through.
Speaker 1: They got to my head. And at that moment, the
Speaker 1: officers come barging back through that door into the interrogation room,
Speaker 1: and Brendon doesn't say another word. Oh yeah, I'm getting
Speaker 1: the chills. I mean, as a parent, it's just so heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: And look, I always say, there are a lot of
Speaker 1: very good people in our criminal justice system, but the
Speaker 1: ones who do the types of things that were done
Speaker 1: to Brendon. I mean, there's a lot of villains in
Speaker 1: this story, right, some unbelievable characters in this story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so the system that was designed in theory to
Speaker 1: protect the innocent and this case, to protect Brendan failed
Speaker 1: at every level. I mean, starting in the interrogation room,
Speaker 1: that's right, Starting with the fact that they targeted him
Speaker 1: in the first place. I don't really understand. I mean,
Speaker 1: I have a theory in my own head about why
Speaker 1: they may have done that, and maybe we'll never know,
Speaker 1: but it seems like to me they wanted to build
Speaker 1: a stronger case against even no doubt about it, and
Speaker 1: so they went for the weakest link. They knew that
Speaker 1: small community, they knew that Brendan was a simple person. Well,
Speaker 1: that's right, And you know, one of the things about Brendan,
Speaker 1: of course, he's got disabilities. Everybody knows that. But his
Speaker 1: disabilities in particular are clustered around speech, the way he speaks,
Speaker 1: the way he hears language, way he processes words, and
Speaker 1: the way he uses his own words. Right, so you know,
Speaker 1: this is not a person who can sort of we've
Speaker 1: sophisticated stories or lies or things like that. And of
Speaker 1: course these are disabilities that are at the center of
Speaker 1: an interrogation, right, the sort of sophisticated level of conversation
Speaker 1: talking about you know, what could happen to him if
Speaker 1: he if he didn't confess because there was a threat
Speaker 1: in this case, Well, what happened to him if he
Speaker 1: didn't start adopting the story that was being fed to him?
Speaker 1: What was going to happen on the other hand, if
Speaker 1: he if he did agree to go along with the story.
Speaker 1: You know, this is a really hard situation for someone
Speaker 1: like Brendan, sixteen special education student in Wisconsin, public schools,
Speaker 1: hard situation for him to navigate. He did the best
Speaker 1: he could for as long as he could, for as
Speaker 1: long as he could. Four times, over forty eight hours,
Speaker 1: these officers questioned him, and they should have been a
Speaker 1: first round knockout. Oh my god, he held up as
Speaker 1: long as he could. We've been investigating long load. We
Speaker 1: already know what happened. To be a lot easier on you.
Speaker 1: If you live on it, that's going to be problems.
Speaker 1: I'm your friends, really fair place trap by an honest
Speaker 1: persons get a better deal. A lot of that. You're
Speaker 1: gonna believe on that work. I don't believe in you
Speaker 1: can't make any problems. But we'll stand behind you. And
Speaker 1: your mom said you be honest, and she's behind you
Speaker 1: on on what happened because she thinks you know more,
Speaker 1: too more, and you're more important. We already know what
Speaker 1: happened on Toss exactly. What would you tell people when
Speaker 1: they're sitting in that jury box and they're listening to
Speaker 1: incredible testimony videotapes, someone going yeah, I did it, yeah,
Speaker 1: So what should people? Because some confessions are true. Of course,
Speaker 1: some confessions are true. Those are the ones we want,
Speaker 1: right it's you know, we got to screen out the
Speaker 1: false confessions. Okay, So the big message, right, A confession
Speaker 1: is just a piece of evidence, like any other piece
Speaker 1: of evidence. Right, Sometimes it can be misleading, and you
Speaker 1: question it and you examine it in the same way
Speaker 1: that you'd ask, you know, critical questions, intelligent questions about
Speaker 1: any other piece of evidence. Right, can I trust what
Speaker 1: this person is saying? So when you see a confession
Speaker 1: like Brendan Dacy's, where somebody is getting the facts of
Speaker 1: the crime wrong unless they're being told the right answer,
Speaker 1: that's a red flag. Right. It happens throughout Brendan's interrogation
Speaker 1: details learn and small. He can't come up with He's guessing,
Speaker 1: and he guesses wrong, actually until he gets straightened out
Speaker 1: by the officers. Not just about how Teresa Hallback was killed,
Speaker 1: but he can't decide if for shirt was black or white. Right,
Speaker 1: he doesn't know what the what the right answer is
Speaker 1: because he never saw her, That's right. He can't decide
Speaker 1: if the fire was started at three pm or later
Speaker 1: on in the evening after dark, right, I mean, he
Speaker 1: doesn't know these things. He's just guessing all over the place.
Speaker 1: And you see this repeatedly throughout false confession cases, because
Speaker 1: what you have in those cases are people who had
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the crime trying to say something
Speaker 1: that sounds believable to satisfy their interrogators. Almost everybody I've
Speaker 1: ever met says the same thing. I am not that guy.
Speaker 1: I'm smart, I'm capable, I'm strong, I'm not confessing to
Speaker 1: crimit and commit. Everybody thinks it's right, Well, that's for
Speaker 1: other people, right, That's for you know, maybe mentally impaired people,
Speaker 1: that's for children maybe. So what you have to understand
Speaker 1: is that interrogation is a carefully orchestrated set of psychological
Speaker 1: tactics that are designed to get people off their belief
Speaker 1: in their own innocence and designed to actually make them
Speaker 1: believe that it will help them, that it will improve
Speaker 1: their situation, that it will benefit them to say they
Speaker 1: did these things that the officers think. Right, these are
Speaker 1: incredibly powerful techniques, and every single one of us has
Speaker 1: a breaking point, and these techniques are designed to find it.
Speaker 1: So how does this work? Right? So, the way this
Speaker 1: basically works, interrogation is generally a two stage process. The
Speaker 1: first half is all about confrontation and reducing you down
Speaker 1: to hopelessness. Right, we know you did this. I've got
Speaker 1: so much evidence against you. No one is going to
Speaker 1: believe you when you say you're innocent. Right, I've got
Speaker 1: three people in the room next door who picked you
Speaker 1: out of a lineup. I've got your DNA on the scene,
Speaker 1: I've got your fingerprints on the gun. Even if none
Speaker 1: of that is true. By the way, that's perfectly legal
Speaker 1: for police to lie. That's right. Not the UK, that's right,
Speaker 1: but here it's perfectly legal for the police to lie
Speaker 1: during interrogations. So they bring you down to hopelessness. Right,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to listen to you say you're innocent.
Speaker 1: You're just making it worse off for yourself. No one's
Speaker 1: gonna believe you. You're caught, you're trapped, you're screwed, You've
Speaker 1: got nothing. And then when you reach that point of hopelessness,
Speaker 1: that's when they offer you and out right a life
Speaker 1: raft confession. It's going to help you. If you confess,
Speaker 1: We'll go easy on you. I'll go talk to the judge. Right,
Speaker 1: I'll see what I can do for you. You. Things
Speaker 1: are going to be so much better for you. You've
Speaker 1: got a whole life to live in front of you.
Speaker 1: You're just a kid. People are going to understand that
Speaker 1: over and over, but I need to hear the story
Speaker 1: from you, right, People are gonna understand that you deserve
Speaker 1: help if you cooperate. That's how it works, right. These
Speaker 1: techniques are incredibly good at getting true confessions, but they're
Speaker 1: so potent that they also get false confessions. And this
Speaker 1: actually we're sitting here in Chicago, which is where this
Speaker 1: was originated, right, the read technique read technique actually even
Speaker 1: better than that. It's originated here out of the work
Speaker 1: of a professor at Northwestern Law School back in the
Speaker 1: nineteen forties. Right. So before these that's right, before these
Speaker 1: psychological techniques were developed, interrogations were physical, right the third degree.
Speaker 1: People were beaten or hung out of windows. Right, this,
Speaker 1: this is how it was done. And in the forties,
Speaker 1: these people, who at the time were thought of as
Speaker 1: progressive reformers come along and say, you know what, let's
Speaker 1: stop physically abusing people. Let's do this psychological techniques instead.
Speaker 1: Those techniques that were developed here at Northwestern here in
Speaker 1: Chicago back in the nineteen forties are still being used today.
Speaker 1: Talk about outdated. Even though the DNA revolution, which has
Speaker 1: been in full swing now for twenty five years, has
Speaker 1: proven time and again that these outdated techniques are far
Speaker 1: too capable of coercing false confessions. The crazy thing is
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, you're the lawyer in this equation.
Speaker 1: But had Brendan said what I advise people listening to
Speaker 1: the show or anybody who asked me anywhere, if you're
Speaker 1: picked up for a crime that you didn't commit, and
Speaker 1: you're brought to the station, and you're placed in this situation, right,
Speaker 1: and you see to yourself, well, I don't want to
Speaker 1: end up like Brendon. What do you do? I want
Speaker 1: a lawyer, that's what you say, right, I want a
Speaker 1: lawyer that stops the interrogation, or it should stop the interrogation.
Speaker 1: That's your constitutional right to say that. What's interesting, of course,
Speaker 1: you know the Miranda rights are read. Usually at the
Speaker 1: beginning of interrogations. People wave their Miranda rights. So I
Speaker 1: mean a huge number of people do, right. We think
Speaker 1: of these as these important safeguards. And everybody's out there
Speaker 1: asserting their rights to lawyers, and they're right to be
Speaker 1: silent and all the you know, everybody waves these rights,
Speaker 1: and you know, We've all been in that situation, right
Speaker 1: where you get pulled over and you think you can
Speaker 1: talk your way out of it. People wave these rights.
Speaker 1: They don't understand how these rights can help them, especially kids. Right,
Speaker 1: What does it mean to a kid? What does it
Speaker 1: mean to Brendan Dacy that he can have a lawyer
Speaker 1: in the room, his admissions will be used against him
Speaker 1: in court. He doesn't know what a lawyer does. He
Speaker 1: doesn't understand the ways in which a lawyer could help him,
Speaker 1: or improve his situation, or stop this from happening to him.
Speaker 1: But yeah, huge numbers of people wave those rights. And
Speaker 1: it's actually the numbers are even greater when we're talking
Speaker 1: about innocent people. Sure, right, because you figured right, nothing
Speaker 1: to hide, of course, I'll talk to you, right. And
Speaker 1: you may also be sitting there thinking, well, if it's
Speaker 1: going to take a long time for a lawyer to
Speaker 1: get here waiting to do, let me just clear this up,
Speaker 1: no problem, I'll be out of here. We're begging you.
Speaker 1: This is Jason and Laura personally begging you. You're in
Speaker 1: that situation. There's only four words you need. I want
Speaker 1: a lawyer. Right. Part of the process that landed Brendon
Speaker 1: in this situation, which was his own team. Can you
Speaker 1: tell us what that was like? I mean being represented
Speaker 1: by this guide. Um. When I first met him, I
Speaker 1: knew that he didn't have my best interest in in
Speaker 1: mind because he was always trying to get me to
Speaker 1: take a plea deal or something. So you knew right away. Yeah, Brendan,
Speaker 1: that a lot of credit to you, because you know,
Speaker 1: many people might not have picked up on that so quickly,
Speaker 1: because people go into that situation they think, well, this
Speaker 1: is my lawyer. He's going to be protecting me and
Speaker 1: defending me. Yeah, so you knew right away. But then
Speaker 1: as things progressed, I mean, did you feel betrayed or
Speaker 1: did you feel hopeful that maybe he was going to
Speaker 1: turn it around and actually do his job. No, especially
Speaker 1: since that when I saw him on TV with Nancy Drace,
Speaker 1: you know, and he's more or less tolder that he
Speaker 1: believes that I'm guilty. Wow. Yeah, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: things wrong with that whole scenario. I mean, as you
Speaker 1: mentioned that name Nancy Grayson, like you know, my skin crawls, um,
Speaker 1: and that. Yeah, the fact that he went on there
Speaker 1: with hers is horrible. And then you had this investigator
Speaker 1: who was supposed to be helping you. Yeah, and can
Speaker 1: you talk about that a little bit? What do you
Speaker 1: want to know? Well, when he was asking you to
Speaker 1: drop pictures and all these other things, and he was
Speaker 1: sort of badgering you, like, Brendan, you did this? What
Speaker 1: about this investigator? At first I thought maybe he would
Speaker 1: try to help me, you know, but then when he
Speaker 1: was trying to get me to more or let's give
Speaker 1: another confession, you know, I knew right then and there
Speaker 1: that he wasn't at my side either. So basically, you
Speaker 1: had your family and and that was pretty much it.
Speaker 1: But they're not lawyers and they're not investigators. They're just
Speaker 1: just regular people. Right. Yeah, how did being represented or
Speaker 1: misrepresented by lenn and the things that he did, how
Speaker 1: did that make you feel? It made me feel betrayed
Speaker 1: and that I couldn't really trust lawyers either, But now
Speaker 1: I can. What an insane set of twists and turns. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've represented Brendan Dacy through the state court appeal system
Speaker 1: where the state courts and Wisconsin we're not particularly bothered
Speaker 1: by what they saw on that interrogation video, but we
Speaker 1: we sort of expected that, and then we took his case.
Speaker 1: As people who watched Making a Murderer will remember, we
Speaker 1: took his case to the federal court system. Right with
Speaker 1: this basically works as you can go to federal court
Speaker 1: and you can say, hey, federal court, will you review
Speaker 1: the way in which the Wisconsin state courts protected Brendan's rights.
Speaker 1: So that's what we did. We went to the federal courts.
Speaker 1: We filed what's called a petition for a writ of
Speaker 1: habeas corpus, asking the federal court to take a look
Speaker 1: at how the state courts handled Brendan's case. But but
Speaker 1: there's a trick here. Okay, So let's say you go
Speaker 1: into federal court and you proved to them beyond the
Speaker 1: shadow of a doubt right that the state court was
Speaker 1: wrong in how it handled Brendan's case, you lose. In
Speaker 1: order to win in federal court, you have to prove
Speaker 1: not only that the state court was wrong in how
Speaker 1: it handled Brendan's case, but that it was so unreasonably
Speaker 1: wrong that no other judge in America could possibly have
Speaker 1: ruled the same way. Right. That's literally the legal standard
Speaker 1: thanks to the Anti Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act
Speaker 1: signed into law in which keeps you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of innocent prisoners like Brendan Dacy from accessing this kind
Speaker 1: of relief in the federal courts. So that's the needle
Speaker 1: that you have to thread in federal court. So we
Speaker 1: filed our petition, you know, we we made these arguments, yes,
Speaker 1: this is that's not just wrong, it's it's unreasonably wrong.
Speaker 1: No one else would rule this way. And we sat
Speaker 1: and waited months and months and months for a decision.
Speaker 1: And we got our decision. You know, we'd we'd won
Speaker 1: after years of representing Brendan, we'd won in the federal
Speaker 1: district court, you know, which is a moment of enormous joy,
Speaker 1: as you can imagine. But we knew, because we've pushed
Speaker 1: the boulder up the hill a lot of times before,
Speaker 1: we knew that that was just round one that the
Speaker 1: state had every right to appeal, that it was going
Speaker 1: to appeal this case. And it did. That's right, that's right, um.
Speaker 1: And so when we found out that they were going
Speaker 1: to appeal, we said, you know what, that is your right.
Speaker 1: We can't stop you from doing that, but we want
Speaker 1: Brendan out right, We want him home. This is right
Speaker 1: around Thanksgiving, Um, we want him home for the holidays
Speaker 1: while you guys do your thing. So we asked the
Speaker 1: court to release Brendan during the appeals and you know,
Speaker 1: we made all of our arguments. Here's where he's going
Speaker 1: to go live. He's going to be in a protected environment.
Speaker 1: We have a social worker on the space, you know,
Speaker 1: working on the case, identifying resources supports for him outside.
Speaker 1: And the court said, okay, yeah, let's let Brendan go home. Right,
Speaker 1: He's not a danger to this community. I believe in him.
Speaker 1: I can see it's gonna be fine, So let's release him.
Speaker 1: And we had an order directing the State of Wisconsin
Speaker 1: to release Brendon Dacy and came within about twelve hours
Speaker 1: of getting Brendon out before the State of Wisconsin asked
Speaker 1: the appeals court to block that order and they did. So,
Speaker 1: you know, okay, um, we go forward with the appeal.
Speaker 1: The state files, it's briefed, we file our briefs, We
Speaker 1: argue it out in court before the appeals court, the
Speaker 1: federal appeals courts, and again, right, we're trying to thread
Speaker 1: the eye of the needle. Here we wait and wait
Speaker 1: and wait for our verdict, for our decision. And we
Speaker 1: went again right two to one. If this is in
Speaker 1: front of three judges, we'd one two to one, which
Speaker 1: is another moment of great joy. Two to one, I'll
Speaker 1: take it. Except please notice that as we studied this
Speaker 1: decision was two to one decision, there was suddenly another
Speaker 1: judge in America who would have ruled to keep Brendan
Speaker 1: Dacy still in prison. Right, And the more we read
Speaker 1: that dissenting judge's opinion, we realized that it read like
Speaker 1: an open invitation for the State of Wisconsin to try
Speaker 1: this very rare legal maneuver rehearing on bank where you
Speaker 1: throw out the appeal and redo it in front of
Speaker 1: the full court. And that's exactly what they did. We
Speaker 1: argued that case and lost by a single vote, four
Speaker 1: to three. Steve and I are not not done fighting
Speaker 1: for Brendan, and the world isn't either, and the Wisconsin
Speaker 1: Knights aren't either. Right, So today we have filed a
Speaker 1: petition with the Governor of Wisconsin asking that he grant
Speaker 1: Brendan clemency, that he released Brendan Dacy from prison. It's
Speaker 1: the only person in the world with the power to
Speaker 1: do that, Governor Tony Evers. We hear so much from
Speaker 1: people in state out of state. Right, people from all
Speaker 1: over all four corners of Wisconsin, Madison, Milwaukee, but up
Speaker 1: in Superior, up in Green Bay, out in Eau Claire, right,
Speaker 1: lacros Us. I get these messages constantly from people who
Speaker 1: who just think it's time for Brendan to come home.
Speaker 1: You know, it's past time, and we know we're we're
Speaker 1: honored to be in a position where we can hopefully
Speaker 1: show the governor it's the right time to do this. Yes,
Speaker 1: and the good news is that, by all accounts, this
Speaker 1: governor is a reasonable man. He's had experience. Um, he's
Speaker 1: visited a juvenile detention facilities one of the first things
Speaker 1: he did. That, that's right, he did. And he comes
Speaker 1: from the education system. You know, he was the head
Speaker 1: of the Wisconsin Board of Education before he assumed the
Speaker 1: governor's office. So this is somebody who understands. You know,
Speaker 1: Brendan was a tenth grader in the public school, special
Speaker 1: education system. Right, That's who he was. In many ways,
Speaker 1: it's still who he is, Brendan. Um. You know, one
Speaker 1: of the things I was personally so um struck by
Speaker 1: was when we spoke yesterday about your dreams for after
Speaker 1: you get out. Um, what you want to do in
Speaker 1: the world. Do you mind sort of talking about that
Speaker 1: a little bit. I mean, like getting into making and
Speaker 1: playing video games. Well, yeah, and hopefully getting paid for it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We oh. I think it was Laura that asked you
Speaker 1: if you had a superpower, what wouldn't That's right, That's
Speaker 1: always one of my favorite questions to ask Brendan. I
Speaker 1: would want to have the power to heal illnesses and
Speaker 1: diseases all over the world. And where do you think
Speaker 1: that comes from? Like, I mean, it's a great superpower.
Speaker 1: I'd like to have it too. But of all the things,
Speaker 1: why do you think that one is the one that
Speaker 1: came to your mind? Well, I just like helping people,
Speaker 1: so I wanted to help other people in the world.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, there's a lot of people that want
Speaker 1: to help you too, and it's amazing. We talked about
Speaker 1: yesterday how many letters you get. Do you figure you've
Speaker 1: gotten letters from every state in the country by now,
Speaker 1: all fifty states? It's got to be close. Uh huh.
Speaker 1: You know, Brendan, why don't you tell him some of
Speaker 1: the countries that people have sent you letters from? Do
Speaker 1: you remember some of the countries Singapore in glend Ireland, Iceland,
Speaker 1: South America, Canada, Hawaii, New Zealand too. Yeah, even Australia, right, Australia,
Speaker 1: it's amazing, and also some from Wisconsin, right, Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1: So there's tens of millions of people now all over
Speaker 1: the world, as you know, who have watched Making a
Speaker 1: Murderer have learned about your story. Do you want to
Speaker 1: see the show when you get out? Are you interested?
Speaker 1: I might eat. I don't know if I can, though, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you made it might be hard to watch, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: more or less because I lived it, So why would
Speaker 1: I want to watch it again? Really understandable after everything
Speaker 1: you've been through and all the twists and turns and
Speaker 1: the freedom being sort of, you know, yanked away from
Speaker 1: you twice. Really Yeah, what was that like? Your bags
Speaker 1: were packed, right, You're ready to go home, and then
Speaker 1: they pulled the rug out from under you. I mean,
Speaker 1: I would think that would make somebody crazy. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: was a little depressed, you know, called my mom at night,
Speaker 1: and you know, I was I was upset, you know,
Speaker 1: and so she was she you know what she thought
Speaker 1: I was going to be coming home, you know, and
Speaker 1: I was willing to give up all my stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: and just walk out the doors with nothing, right, So
Speaker 1: you were going to give it to some of the
Speaker 1: other guys in there or either that or or just
Speaker 1: tell all the prison that they can keep it right, Well,
Speaker 1: you weren't going to need it anymore. Yeah, what helps
Speaker 1: you sort of get through this? Brendan? As this is
Speaker 1: was all happening to you, Where did you find your strength? Uh?
Speaker 1: Mostly having my family support me and have my back,
Speaker 1: especially your mom. Right, Yeah, it is visiting day, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll beginning a visit from my mom tonight. It means everything,
Speaker 1: you know. They have a family that loves and supports
Speaker 1: me no matter what, and they always have my back,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And it's really he is hardening to
Speaker 1: know that so many people care and still care. And
Speaker 1: what would you tell people that want to get involved
Speaker 1: that that have seen your story didn't really have any
Speaker 1: idea of what goes on in our justice system, but
Speaker 1: now they do. Is there anything particularly you could advise someone, Um,
Speaker 1: just keep fighting for me and uh, keep showing your
Speaker 1: love and support and then there's a lot of ways
Speaker 1: to do that and going to you know, Innocence Project
Speaker 1: dot org is a good place to start. Laura. Are
Speaker 1: there other places people can go to learn more about
Speaker 1: this case and to follow your progress and the progress
Speaker 1: and getting Brendan home. Absolutely, Folks can go to c
Speaker 1: w c HY dot org. That's the Center on Wrongful
Speaker 1: Convictions of Youth. You can learn a lot more about
Speaker 1: Brendan's case, Reada's legal papers, and follow developments as they happen.
Speaker 1: And do you have social media yourself that we can
Speaker 1: tag you in here because we want to have people
Speaker 1: allow you and your progress not only on Brendan's case,
Speaker 1: but also on all the other amazing work that you're doing.
Speaker 1: I do, I do. I'm on Instagram and Twitter both
Speaker 1: at Laura and I writer. That's easy. That's at Laura
Speaker 1: and I writer. That's right. And now, as regular listeners
Speaker 1: of the show, no, it's time for the best part
Speaker 1: of the show, closing arguments, where I get to just
Speaker 1: kick back in my chair turn my microphone off. First
Speaker 1: of all, thank you again for taking the time to
Speaker 1: share your thoughts and your perspective and your spirit with
Speaker 1: me in with our audience, And of course thank you
Speaker 1: Laura for arranging this and for being such a passionate, dedicated,
Speaker 1: obsessive justice fighter. Um and for being on the show.
Speaker 1: So Laura, first, thank you for being here. Thanks for
Speaker 1: giving this opportunity to let the world here who Brendan
Speaker 1: Nasty is. You know, there have been so many people
Speaker 1: out there who watched Making a Murderer and we're moved
Speaker 1: disturbed by Brendan's story and who've reached out to us
Speaker 1: to ask what they can do to help Brendan. There's
Speaker 1: something really easy you can do. Maybe this upcoming weekend,
Speaker 1: you find yourself the nextra ten minutes of time, think
Speaker 1: about sending him a letter. Right. These letters don't have
Speaker 1: to be long, they don't have to be powerful, but
Speaker 1: just tell him, you know, keep your head high. I
Speaker 1: believe in you. Right, we're fighting for you. It'll happen
Speaker 1: for you. These letters are such a small gesture on
Speaker 1: the part of every one of us, but they sustain him. Right.
Speaker 1: They give him hope every day, and that gives us
Speaker 1: the hope we need to keep on fighting. So find
Speaker 1: his address on the Wisconsin Department of Corrections website. He's
Speaker 1: in the Oshkosh Correctional Institution. Reach out to him. Let
Speaker 1: him know he's got friends all over the world who
Speaker 1: believe in him. If you want to get involved. In
Speaker 1: other ways you can do that. You can educate yourself.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of other books, films, TV shows
Speaker 1: about wrongful conviction. Right, Brendan is not the only one.
Speaker 1: Get out there. Watch when they see us, Right, Watch
Speaker 1: the Paradise Last series about the West Memphis three or
Speaker 1: West of Memphis. Watch Murder on a Sunday morning, Right,
Speaker 1: watch the confession tapes. You can see incredible shows, read
Speaker 1: incredible books about this happening over and over, some of
Speaker 1: which we've mentioned today, and you can get out there.
Speaker 1: Of course, you can support organizations like the Center on
Speaker 1: Wrongful Convictions or the Innocence Project or a lot of
Speaker 1: other incredible organizations that do this work. But most importantly, right,
Speaker 1: don't stop saying Brendan Dacy's name. Get out there on
Speaker 1: social media, remember him, Keep insisting that the people with
Speaker 1: power in this system do justice for Brendan. Write letters
Speaker 1: to the governor of Wisconsin. Tell him what you see
Speaker 1: when you see Brendon on TV. Tell him what you
Speaker 1: hear when you hear Brendon on a podcast like this,
Speaker 1: especially if you live in Wisconsin. Tell him you want
Speaker 1: Brendan home. That's the difference that you can make It's
Speaker 1: a huge difference. We rely on people like you to
Speaker 1: light the way, to show the path for doing the
Speaker 1: right thing here. So thank you to everybody who's written
Speaker 1: to Brendon. Keep doing it, keep showing your support. Let's
Speaker 1: get him home together and Brendan, Um, thank you again
Speaker 1: for you know, letting me come see you and for
Speaker 1: spending time on the air with us today. Um, and
Speaker 1: now I get to leave it open for you to
Speaker 1: say whatever you want as we close the show. UM,
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say. UM. I love Pokemon
Speaker 1: and my favorite Pokemon is Mew. But there's a new
Speaker 1: one coming out called l Creamy I really like. And
Speaker 1: uh hopefully I get to see some of the more
Speaker 1: new ones coming out pretty soon. Thank you for listening
Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam. Please support your local
Speaker 1: innocence projects and go to the link in our bio
Speaker 1: to see how you can help. I'd like to thank
Speaker 1: our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburne and Kevin Warns.
Speaker 1: The music on the show, as always, is by three
Speaker 1: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook. At
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a
Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal
Speaker 1: Company Number one