1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Laura. Today. October second is International Wrongful 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: Conviction Day, and to mark this day, we're re releasing 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: an episode that first came out exactly two years ago. 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: It's an episode that's really close to my heart because 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: it features my longtime clients and friend, Brendan Dacy. Here's 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: a quick update on worthings stand with Brendan. Although Wisconsin 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: Governor Tony Evers denied Brendan clemency in twenty nineteen, we're 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: still fighting to free him and we've been joined by 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: an army of supporters, everyone from legal experts to everyday people. 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: In fact, I want to shout out one particularly dedicated 11 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: group of online supporters that's been doing some pretty incredible 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: work over the past year. They've done everything from organizing 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: email campaigns to placing free Brendan Dasy billboards along Wisconsin highways. 14 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: Their message has reached more than one point eight million 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: people so far. Their dedication is amazing, and yours is tuo. 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: So to all of Brendan's supporters and to Brendan himself 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: and so many others like him. We're re releasing this 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: episode for you. 19 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flumm, you know 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: many of our listeners. Most of our listeners have seen 21 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: the Netflix original series Making a Murderer. It's the story 22 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: of Stephen Avery, a guy from the wrong side of 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: the tracks whose family owned an auto salvage yard in Manitoa, Wisconsin. 24 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: It starts off in nineteen eighty five, where Stephen Avery 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: was wrongfully convicted of a sexual assault, for which he 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 2: was exonerated eighteen years later when the DNA in the 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 2: case was found to match another man and his alibis 28 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 2: were proven to have been true all along. After his release, 29 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 2: in two thousand and three, Avery filed a thirty six 30 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 2: million dollars civil suit against Manitoa County, Wisconsin and several 31 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: of its officials. Fast forward to two thousand and five. 32 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: Teresa Halbach, a photographer known to have been photographing cars 33 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: on the Avery property when missing. The handling of the 34 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: investigation was quite controversial, to say the least, with issues 35 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: of evidence tampering, not to mention the obvious conflict of 36 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: interest in allowing Manitoa County to investigate the very same 37 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 2: man who was suing them for thirty six million dollars. However, 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: all of that aside The most damning piece of evidence 39 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 2: came in the form of a false confession from Avery's nephew, 40 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: Brendan Dacy, a sixteen year old boy with no criminal 41 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: record and serious mental challenges. Now, I'm honored to present 42 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 2: the exclusive, the one and only interview that Brendan has 43 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 2: ever given to anyone joining us has esteemed appellad attorney 44 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 2: from the Center on Romful Convictions at Northwestern University. My 45 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 2: friend Laura and nightrider. Laura was kind enough to pick 46 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: me up from the airport in Chicago and we drove 47 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: out to Oshkosh Correctional Facility for a pre interview behind 48 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: bars with Brandon. This left us with both time to 49 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: talk and plenty to talk about. We have had a 50 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: very eventful last twenty four hours. 51 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's been a trip I've done so 52 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: many times for going on twelve years now, and you know, 53 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: it was a trip I hoped to never have to 54 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: make again. That it's a trip that you know what 55 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: we're going to keep on doing for as long as 56 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: we have to do. Right, go out there, support him, 57 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: and I'm just glad you had a chance to see 58 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: who Brendan is, you know, to really spend some time 59 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: with him and get to know him, because he's he's 60 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: a pretty incredible guy. 61 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: Brandon is a very powerful example of a phenomenon that 62 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: amazes me and keeps me going and drives me onward 63 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: in this fight, which is that there is an absolute 64 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 2: and total absence of malice, anger, bitterness, self pity. Like 65 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: I don't even think he knows what those emotions are. 66 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: He's an incredible guy. I mean, you know, he was 67 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: sixteen when he went in. He's twenty nine years old now. 68 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: And during that whole period of time of knowing him, 69 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: You're right, I mean, Brendan is a sweet soul. You know, 70 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: he's a he's a simple guy. He's a funny guy. 71 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: He's gentle, he's so gentle and kind shallow. No, no, 72 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: he's not. 73 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: That's right, And in his story is one of extreme juxtaposition, right, 74 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 2: because he went from being a very childlike young person 75 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 2: adolescent into a very extreme grown up situation. You got 76 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: involved with Brennan's case at what stage? 77 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: Well, let's start with Steve Drisen, my colleague on the case. 78 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, about three months after Brendan 79 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: was convicted. At his trial, Steve was asked to handle 80 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: Brendan's appeals going forward because of his expertise around interrogations 81 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: and confessions. 82 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 2: Two thousand and sevens this is lost. Yes, he was 83 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: just another of the two point two million people in prison. 84 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: That right, that's right, and Steve took the case. Now 85 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: this is two thousand and seven. Okay. So at the time, 86 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: Steve was teaching here at Northwestern Law School, and I 87 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: was a third year law student in Steve's class on 88 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Now, I didn't intend to practice criminal law. 89 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: I actually had a career all mapped out for myself 90 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: as a business lawyer. I was going to go do that. 91 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: I had a job lined up after graduation. I knew 92 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: nothing at a law from here in town, here in Chicago, 93 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,559 Speaker 1: And you know, I knew nothing about the criminal justice system. 94 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: I knew nothing about wrongful convictions. I definitely knew nothing 95 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: about false confessions. But I'd signed up for Steve's class, 96 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, on a whim, try to do something off 97 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: the beaten path. And a few months into that fall 98 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: semester of my last year of law school, that's you know, 99 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: Steve called me into his office and he said, I've 100 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: just gotten involved in a case from Wisconsin involving a 101 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: six teen year old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed 102 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: to a crime that I don't think he committed. And 103 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: he handed me the interrogation videos from Brendan Dazzy's case, right, 104 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: the same videos that years and years later ended up 105 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: in making a murder. And he told me to go 106 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: watch them. So I went home. I sat down on 107 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: my couch, I got out my laptop, because this is 108 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, I pop in these DVDs and 109 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: I watched them all right, from start to finish, their 110 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: confession tapes. Yeah, and my heart broke, and I knew 111 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: that this is it. This is what I had to 112 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: do with, you know, fight for people like Brendan. So, 113 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: you know, no more business law for me. I came 114 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: back to Northwestern after graduating, and for the last twelve years, 115 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: I've been building with Steve the Center on Wrongful Convictions, 116 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: where we represent Brendan and other kids just like him. 117 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: So for the people who may not have seen making 118 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 2: a murder, and there are those who listen to our 119 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 2: show who haven't seen, Yeah, what was it? What was 120 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: the moment? What was it about those tapes? 121 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I actually remember 122 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: the moment. Right. It's so this is a videotape of 123 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: the entire interrogation. 124 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 3: Right. 125 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: He was actually questioned four times over forty eight hours, 126 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: and it was only the last interrogation that produced the confession. 127 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: You know, which I which I say in quotation marks. 128 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: But this is an interrogation where they're asking Brendan about murder. Right, 129 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: this is a murder case. So they want to ask 130 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: him about, you know, how was the victim in this case? 131 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: How was Teresa Halbach killed? Right? And and these police 132 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: going into the interrogation, they know, or they think they 133 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: know based on their own investigation, that she had been 134 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: shot in the head. So they're waiting for Brendan to 135 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: describe shooting somebody in the head, right, So they ask him, 136 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: you know, Brendan, how did you guys, you know, how 137 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,239 Speaker 1: did you kill Teresa Hallbach? 138 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 3: And he says, we choked her. 139 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: Well, that's that's not right. So they said, I'm okay, 140 00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: you know what else, Brendan, what else did you do 141 00:07:59,360 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: to her? 142 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 3: Did he do it? When we know something else was done? 143 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 3: We stabbed her? 144 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: Still not right, So they actually started not even close, 145 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: So they start dropping him hints right. They say, come on, Brendan, 146 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: something with the head, something with the head. What else 147 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: did you guys do to her? And Brendan says, we 148 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: punched her and that's still not right. So it's like 149 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: Brendan's completely at sea and he says, you know, we 150 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: we cut off her hair and his voice goes up 151 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: like that like he's asking a question and no, no, no, Brendan, 152 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: come on, what else? What else? Something with the head? 153 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: What else? 154 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: What else? What else was done to her head? 155 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: And this goes on and on and on, and finally 156 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: Brendan he must get exhausted and he just says, remember, 157 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: And the officers at that point say to him, Brendan, 158 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: I'm just going to come out and ask you. 159 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 3: All right, I'm just going to come out and ask 160 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: him who shot her in the hat? 161 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: And you know, Brendan says, well, that was that was 162 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: my uncle Stephen. And then, you know, comes one of 163 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: the most heartbreaking moments of the entire interrogation, because I 164 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: say to him, Brendan, why didn't you just tell us that? 165 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 3: Why didn't you tell us that? 166 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 1: And he says, because I couldn't think of it right. 167 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: He was guessing. Yeah, So let's say you're not convinced 168 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: the way I am that Brendan was guessing. Let's say 169 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: for a moment that the story was true, that this 170 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: bloody attack occurred in Stephen Avery's bedroom the way that 171 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: Brendan's confession claimed that it did. You'd expect that bedroom 172 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: and that bed to be covered with forensic evidence, blood 173 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: from a stabbing and throat cutting, hair from when her 174 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: hair was supposedly cut. I mean, think about how hard 175 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: it is to clean up hair. And of course, after 176 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: Brendan gave his confession, the police went back to Stephen 177 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: Avery's bedroom and they searched it for evidence to corroborate 178 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: the confession. They searched the bed, They searched the bedding, 179 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: the mattress, the headboard, the bed frame. They looked at 180 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: the carpet underneath the bed. They pulled that carpet back 181 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: and looked underneath the carpet. They even took the paneling 182 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: off the walls in the bedroom, searching for a single 183 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: molecule of Teresa Halbach's DNA or Brendan Dacy's DNA, and 184 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: they found nothing. This story didn't happen. It's made up. 185 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: The day after our face to face meeting at Oshkosh Correctional, 186 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 2: we did our formal interview with Brendan over the phone 187 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: from Laura's office at Northwestern University. 188 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 3: Not God Correctional Label. 189 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: Hello, Hi, Brendan. It seems like only yesterday that I 190 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: saw you, because it was only yesterday. Yeah, And it 191 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: was great to meet you. You know, Laura and I 192 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 2: had a long ride back to Chicago, and obviously we 193 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 2: talked about you a lot and things that we are 194 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: hoping to do to make a difference for you and 195 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: with you. I mean, we'll wait for the announcement to 196 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: go by. You went through an ordeal that even those 197 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: of us that have seen the show and have seen 198 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 2: on video parts of what happened, obviously we couldn't see 199 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 2: the whole thing, but none of us can understand what 200 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: it would be like to be in your shoes, you know, 201 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: to be in this impossible situation of being a really 202 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 2: a child at sixteen. You're still a child, You're not 203 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: a grown man, and to be going to this interrogation 204 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 2: where you have grown men who are interrogating you for days, 205 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: without a parent, without a lawyer, without anyone to help you. 206 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: I mean, were you scared or were you just thought 207 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: maybe if you just told the truth, everything would be fine, 208 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: or what was your thought process at that point? 209 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 4: Well, I just wanted it all over with, so I 210 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 4: said whatever they wanted to hear. 211 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 2: You know, most people grow up as I did, with 212 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 2: believing that the law enforcement are out to help us, right, 213 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 2: the people you call when you need help. Did you 214 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 2: have that same idea when you went in there? 215 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I thought maybe anything I can do to help them, 216 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 4: you know I would. 217 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 2: So was there a point when you were in that 218 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: horrible room where you started to worry about the outcome, 219 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: or that you thought that these men may have been 220 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: not as well intentioned as you originally thought. 221 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, when they started saying that that I wasn't telling 222 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 4: the truth and that that my story didn't fit the 223 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 4: facts that they had, that's when I started getting worried. 224 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 2: There's a very good reason your story didn't fit the 225 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: vaccas you didn't know the facts. Yeah, so, Brandon, you 226 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: remember there was a time when the interrogators left the 227 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: room for a few minutes and your mom came back 228 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 2: into the room. Yeah, beautiful life. 229 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 3: To say, did you huh not? Really? We do you 230 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 3: need not really, huh what do you mean by that? 231 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: So was that the first time you had seen your 232 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: mom since they had started interrogating you? 233 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, that is okay. 234 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 2: So what was it like to see her after being 235 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 2: alone with those interrogators for such a long time? 236 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 4: I felt that I could be safe and I could 237 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 4: tell her the truth. You know that they got into 238 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 4: my head, They got me to say whatever they wanted. 239 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 2: Do you think either before, during, or after that, the 240 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 2: detectives conducting that interrogation knew or realized that he was 241 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: actually innocent? 242 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: You know, it's a very good question, and it's something 243 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: I've asked myself right over and over again. This is 244 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: just my opinion, but I think that they were worried 245 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: that something had gone wrong. Brendan's already been in the 246 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: box for about three and a half hours. He's adopted 247 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: their their theories that he committed rape and murder and 248 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: the whole thing. And the story is over, it's done, 249 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: it's locked, and they let her into the room, and 250 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: the cameras are still rolling in the room, right and 251 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: they leave two of them alone. You know, it's my 252 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: theory that they were outside watching this all unclosed circuit 253 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: camera hoping that Brendan was going to make more admissions 254 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: to his mother. Instead, he recants one of the clearest 255 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: recantations I've ever heard, Right, Brendan using his own words, 256 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: his own ability to express himself, to tell his mom 257 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: what he had just been through. They got to my head. 258 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: And at that moment, the officers come barging back through 259 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: that door into the interrogation room, and Brendan doesn't say 260 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: another word. 261 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm getting the chills. I mean, as a parent, 262 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: it's just so heartbreaking. And look, I always say, there 263 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 2: are a lot of very good people in our criminal 264 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: justice system, but the ones who do the types of 265 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: things that were done to Brendan. I mean, there's a 266 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: lot of villains in this story. 267 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: Right, some unbelievable characters in the story. 268 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so the system that was designed in theory 269 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: to protect the innocent and this case, to protect Brendan 270 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: failed at every level. 271 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: Right. 272 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 2: I mean you're starting in the interrogation room, that's right, 273 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: starting with the fact that they targeted him in the 274 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: first place. I don't really understand. I mean, I have 275 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: a theory in my own head about why they may 276 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: have done that, and maybe we'll never know, but it 277 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 2: seems like to me they wanted to build a stronger 278 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 2: case against Stephen, no doubt about it, and so they 279 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: went for the weakest length, no doubt about right. They 280 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: knew that small community, they knew that Brendan was a 281 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: simple person. 282 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: Well, that's right. And you know, one of the things 283 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: about Brendan, of course, he's got disabilities. Everybody knows that. 284 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: But his disabilities in particular are clustered around speech. The 285 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: way he speaks, the way he hears language, the way 286 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: he processes words, and the way he uses his own words. Right, 287 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: So you know, this is not a person who can 288 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: sort of weave sophisticated stories or lies or things like that. 289 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: And of course these are disabilities that are at the 290 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: center of an interrogation, right, the sort of sophisticated level 291 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: of conversation talking about you know, what could happen to 292 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: him if he didn't confess because there was a threat 293 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: in this case, what happened to him if he didn't 294 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: start adopting the story that was being fed to him. 295 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: What was going to happen on the other hand, if 296 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: he if he did agree to go along with the story. 297 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: You know, this is a really hard situation for someone 298 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: like brendan sixteen special education student in Wisconsin public schools, 299 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: a hard situation for him to navigate. He did the 300 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: best he could. 301 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 2: For as long as he could, for as long as 302 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 2: he could. 303 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: Four times over forty eight hours, these officers questioned him. 304 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: And yeah, this should have been a first round knockout. 305 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: Oh my god, he held up as long as he could. 306 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 3: We've been investiating a lot, it is. We already know 307 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 3: what happened. To be a lot easier on you if 308 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 3: you live on it, that's going to be wrong. I'm 309 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 3: your friends, Really, it's on fair place, on crap. You're 310 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 3: an honest person, you get a better dealt of you 311 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 3: going to believe on network. 312 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: I don't believe in your archetical You can't make any propises, 313 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 2: but we'll stand behind you. 314 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 3: Your mom sid you'd be honest when she's behind you. 315 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 3: What happens? She thinks you know more to and you're 316 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 3: more borner. 317 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: We already know what happened on toss exactly. 318 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 2: What would you tell people when they're sitting in that 319 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 2: jury box and they're listening to incredible testimony videotapes. Yes, 320 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 2: I'm someone going yeah I did it? Yeah, So what 321 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 2: should peopleatch because some confessions are true. 322 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: Of course, some confessions are true. Those are the ones 323 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: we want, right, it's you know, we got to screen 324 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: out the false confession. 325 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: So what do they look for? 326 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: Okay? So the big message, right, A confession is just 327 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: a piece of evidence, like any other piece of evidence. Right, 328 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: Sometimes it can be misleading, and you question it and 329 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: you examine it in the same way that you'd ask 330 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: you know, critical questions, intelligent questions about any other piece 331 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: of evidence. Right, can I trust what this person is saying? 332 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: So when you see a confession like Brendan Darcy's, where 333 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: somebody is getting the facts of the crime wrong unless 334 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: they're being told the right answer, that's a red flag. 335 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 3: Right. 336 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: It happens throughout Brendan's interrogation, details learned and small he 337 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: can't come up with. He's guessing, and he guesses wrong, 338 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: actually until he gets strained out by the officers. Not 339 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: just about how Teresa Holbach was killed. But he can't 340 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: decide if a shirt was black or white, right, he 341 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: doesn't know what the right answer is. Has he never 342 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: met her because he never saw her, that's right. He 343 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: can't decide if the fire was started at three PM 344 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: or later on in the evening after dark, right, I 345 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: mean he doesn't know these things. He's just guessing all 346 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: over the place. And you see this repeatedly throughout false 347 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: confession cases, because what you have in those cases are 348 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: people who had nothing to do with the crime trying 349 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: to say something that sounds believable to satisfy their interrogators. 350 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: Almost everybody I've ever met says the same thing. I 351 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: am not that guy. I'm smart, I'm capable, I'm strong, 352 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 2: I'm not confessing with crime and then commitment. 353 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: Everybody thinks this, right, Well, that's for other people, right, 354 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: That's for you know, maybe mentally impaired people, that's for 355 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: children maybe. So what you have to understand is that 356 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: interrogation is a carefully orchestrated set of psychological tactics that 357 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: are designed to get people off their belief in their 358 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: own innocence and designed to actually make them believe that 359 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: it will help them, that it will improve their situation, 360 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: that it will benefit them to say they did these 361 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: things that the officers think. Right, These are incredibly powerful techniques, 362 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: and every single one of us has a breaking point, 363 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: and these techniques are designed to find it. So how 364 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: does this work, right, So the way this basically works, 365 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: interrogation is generally a two stage process. The first half 366 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: is all about confrontation and reducing you down to hopelessness. Right, 367 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: we know you did this. I've got so much evidence 368 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: against you. No one is going to believe you when 369 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: you say you're innocent. Right, I've got three people in 370 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: the room next door who picked you out of a lineup. 371 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: I've got your DNA on the scene, I've got your 372 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: fingerprints on the gun. Even if none of that is true. 373 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: By the way, it's perfectly legal for the police to lie. 374 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: That's right. Not the UK, that's right, but here it's 375 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: perfectly legal for the police to lie during interrogations. So 376 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: they bring you down to hopelessness. Right, I'm not going 377 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: to listen to you say you're innocent. You're just making 378 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: it worse off for yourself. No one's going to believe you. 379 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: You're caught, you're trapped, you're screwed, You've got nothing. And 380 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: then when you reach that point of hopelessness, that's when 381 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: they offer you an out right a life raft confession. 382 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: It's going to help you. If you confess, you will 383 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: go easy on you. You know, I'll go talk to 384 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: the judge. Right, I'll see what I can do for you. 385 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: Things are going to be so much better for you. 386 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: You've got a whole life to live in front of you. 387 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: You're just a kid. People are going to understand that 388 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: over and over. But I need to hear the story 389 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: from you. 390 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 2: Right. 391 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: People are going to understand that you deserve help if 392 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: you cooperate. That's how it works. 393 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 3: Right. 394 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: These techniques are incredibly good at getting true confessions, but 395 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: they are so potent that they also get false confessions. 396 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: And this actually we're sitting here in Chicago, which is 397 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 2: where this was originated, right, the read. 398 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: Technique read technique actually even better than that. It's originated 399 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: here out of the work of a professor at Northwestern 400 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: Law School. Oh my god, back in the nineteen forties, right, 401 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: so before these are that's right, before these psychological techniques 402 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: were developed, interrogations were physical, right, the third degree. People 403 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: were beaten or hung out of windows. Right, this is 404 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: how it was done. And in the forties, these people 405 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: who at the time were thought of as progressive reformers 406 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: come along and say, you know what, let's stop physically 407 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: abusing people. Let's do the psychological techniques. Instead, those techniques 408 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: that were developed here at Northwestern here in Chicago back 409 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties are still being used today. Talk 410 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: about outdated even though the DNA revolution, which has been 411 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: in full swing now for twenty five years, has proven 412 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: time and again that these outdated techniques are far too 413 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: capable of coercing false confessions. 414 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 2: The crazy thing is correct me if I'm wrong, you're 415 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 2: the lawyer in this equation. But had Brendan said what 416 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,719 Speaker 2: I advise people listening to the show, or anybody who 417 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 2: asked me anywhere, if you're picked up for a crime 418 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: that you didn't commit, and you're brought to the station, 419 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: and you're placed in this situation, right, and you say yourself, well, 420 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 2: I don't want to end up like Brendan. What do 421 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 2: you do? 422 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: I want a lawyer, that's what you say, right. I 423 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: want a lawyer that stops the interrogation, or it should 424 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: stop the interrogation. That's your constitutional right to say that. 425 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: What's interesting, of course, you know the Miranda rights are 426 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: read usually at the beginning of interrogations. Eighty five percent 427 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: of people wave their miranda rights, So I mean a 428 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: huge number of people do right. We think of these 429 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,239 Speaker 1: as these important safeguards, and everybody's out there asserting their 430 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: rights to lawyers and their right to be silent and 431 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: all these No, everybody waves these rights. And you know 432 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: we've all been in that situation right where you get 433 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: pulled over and you think you can talk your way 434 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: out of it. People wave these rights. They don't understand 435 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: how these rights can help them, especially kids. Right, what 436 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:56,959 Speaker 1: does it mean to a kid? What does it mean 437 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: to Brendan Dassy that he can have a lawyer in 438 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: the room, his admissions will be used against him in court. 439 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: He doesn't know what a lawyer does. He doesn't understand 440 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: the ways in which a lawyer could help him or 441 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: improve his situation or stop this from happening to him. 442 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: But yeah, huge numbers of people waive those rights. And 443 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: it's actually the numbers are even greater when we're talking 444 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: about innocent people. 445 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 2: Sure, right, because you figure, ihing, I go home. 446 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: Right, nothing to hid, of course, I'll talk to you, right. 447 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: And you may also be sitting there thinking, well, if 448 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 2: it's going to take a long time for a lawyer 449 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 2: to get here, wait, I have things to do. 450 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: Let me just clear this up, No problem, No, I'll 451 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: be out of here. 452 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 2: No, No, we're begging you. This is Jason and Laura 453 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: personally begging you. If you're in that situation, there's only 454 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 2: four words you need. I want a lawyer. 455 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: Right. 456 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: Part of the process that landed Brendan in this situation, 457 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: which was his. 458 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: Own team, Lenn Kachinsky. 459 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 2: Can you tell us what that was like? I mean, 460 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: being represented by this guide. 461 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 4: When I first met him, I knew that he didn't 462 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 4: have I have my best interest in mind, because he 463 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 4: was always trying to get me to take a plead 464 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 4: deal or something. 465 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 2: So you knew right away. Yeah, Brendan, than a lot 466 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 2: of credit to you, because you know, many people might 467 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 2: not have picked up on that so quickly, because people 468 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: go into that situation they think, well, this is my lawyer. 469 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: He's going to be protecting me and defending me. Yeah, 470 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 2: so you knew right away. But then as things progressed, 471 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 2: I mean, did you feel betrayed or did you feel 472 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 2: hopeful that maybe he was going to turn it around 473 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 2: and actually do his job. 474 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 4: No, especially since that when I saw him on TV 475 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 4: with Nancy Drace, you know, and he more or less 476 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 4: told her that he believes that I'm guilty. 477 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, there's a lot of things wrong with that 478 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: whole scenario. I mean, as you mentioned that named Nancy 479 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 2: Grace and you know my skin crawls and that. Yeah, 480 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 2: the fact that he went on there with hers is horrible. 481 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 2: And then you had this investigator who was supposed to 482 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 2: be helping you. Yeah, and can you talk about that 483 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 2: a little bit? 484 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:08,479 Speaker 4: What do you want to know? 485 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 2: Well, when he was asking you to draw pictures and 486 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 2: all these other things, and he was sort of badgering you, 487 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: like Brendan, you did this? Yeah, what about this investigator? 488 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 4: At first I thought maybe he would try to help me, 489 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 4: you know, but then when he was trying to get 490 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 4: me to more or let's give another confession, you know, 491 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 4: I knew right then and there that he wasn't on 492 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 4: my side either. 493 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 2: So basically, you had your family and that was pretty 494 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: much it. But they're not lawyers and they're not investigators. 495 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: They're just just regular people. 496 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 3: Right. 497 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, how did being represented or misrepresented by len and 498 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 2: the things that he did, how did that make you feel? 499 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 4: It made me feel betrayed and that I couldn't really 500 00:26:53,560 --> 00:27:00,120 Speaker 4: trust lawyers either, But now I can. 501 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 2: What an insane set of twists and turns. 502 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, We've represented Brendan Dassi through the state court appeal system, 503 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: where the state courts in Wisconsin were not particularly bothered 504 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: by what they saw on that interrogation video, but we 505 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: sort of expected that, and then we took his case, 506 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: as people who watched Making a Murderer will remember, we 507 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: took his case to the federal court system. Right. The 508 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: way this basically works is you can go to federal 509 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: court and you can say, hey, federal court, will you 510 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 1: review the way in which the Wisconsin state courts protected 511 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: Brendan's rights. So that's what we did. We went to 512 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: the federal courts. We filed what's called a petition for 513 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: a writ of habeas corpus, asking the federal court to 514 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: take a look at how the state courts handled Brendan's case. 515 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: But there is a trick here. Okay, so let's say 516 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: you go into federal court and you prove to them 517 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: beyond the shadow of a doubt, right that the state 518 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: court was wrong in how it handled Brendan's case. You lose. 519 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: In order to win in federal court, you have to 520 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: prove not only that the state court was wrong in 521 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: how it handled Brendan's case, but that it was so 522 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: unreasonably wrong that no other judge in America could possibly 523 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: have ruled the same way. Right, that's literally the legal 524 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: standard thanks to the Anti Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty 525 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: Act signed into law in nineteen ninety six, which keeps, 526 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of innocent prisoners like Brendan Dacy 527 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: from accessing this kind of relief in the federal courts. 528 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: So that's the needle that you have to thread in 529 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: federal court. So we filed our petition, you know, we 530 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: made these arguments, yes, this is that's not just wrong, 531 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: it's it's unreasonably wrong. No one else would rule this way. 532 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: And we sat and waited months and months and months 533 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: for a decision, and we got our decision. You know, 534 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: we'd won after years of representing Brendan, we'd won in 535 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: the federal district court, you know, which was a moment 536 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: of enormous joy, as you can imagine. But we knew, 537 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: because we've pushed the boulder up the hill a lot 538 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: of times before, we knew that that was just round one, 539 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: that the state had every right to appeal, that it 540 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: was going to appeal this case, and it did. Right, 541 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: that's right, that's right, that's right. And so when we 542 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: found out that they were going to appeal, we said, 543 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: you know what that is. You're right, we can't stop 544 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: you from doing that, but we want Brendan out right. 545 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: We want him home. This is right around Thanksgiving. We 546 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: want him home for the holidays while you guys do 547 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: your thing. So we asked the court to release Brendan 548 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: during the appeals and we made all of our arguments. 549 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: Here's where he's going to go live. He's going to 550 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: be in a protected environment. We have a social worker 551 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: on the space, you know, working on the case, identifying 552 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: resources supports for him outside. And the court said, okay, yeah, 553 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: let's let Brendan go home. Right, He's not a danger 554 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: to this community. I believe in him. I can see 555 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: it's going to be fine, So let's release him. And 556 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: we had an order directing the State of Wisconsin to 557 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: release Brendan Dacy and came within about twelve hours of 558 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: getting Brendan out before the State of Wisconsin asked the 559 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: appeals court to block that order and they did. So, 560 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, okay, we go forward with the appeal. The 561 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: state files its brief, we file our briefs, we argue 562 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: it out in court before the appeals court, the federal 563 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: appeals courts, and again, right, we're trying to thread the 564 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: eye of the needle. Here we wait and wait and 565 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: wait for our verdict, for our decision. And we'd won 566 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: again right, two to one. If this is in front 567 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: of three judges, we'd won two to one, which is 568 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: another moment of great joy in celebration. Two to one. 569 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: I'll take it. Except please notice that as we studied 570 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: this decision was two to one decision, there was suddenly 571 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: another judge in America who would have ruled to keep 572 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: Brendan Dacy still in prison. Right. And the more we 573 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: read that dissenting judge's opinion, we realized that it read 574 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: like in open invitation for the state of Wisconsin to 575 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: try this very rare leo maneuver a rehearing on bank 576 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: where you throw out the appeal and redo it in 577 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: front of the full court. And that's exactly what they did. 578 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: We argued that case and lost by a single vote, 579 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:24,959 Speaker 1: four to three. Steve and I are not done fighting 580 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: for Brendan, and the world isn't either, and the Wisconsin 581 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: ights aren't either. Right, So today we have filed a 582 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: petition with the governor of Wisconsin asking that he grant 583 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: Brendan clemency, that he release Brendon Dassy from prison. It's 584 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: the only person in the world with the power to 585 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: do that, Governor Tony Evers. We hear so much from 586 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: people in state, out of state, right, people from all 587 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: over all four corners of Wisconsin, Madison, Milwaukee, but up 588 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: in Superior, up in Green Bay, out in Eau Claire. 589 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: I get these messages constantly from people who I just 590 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: think it's time for Brennan to come home. You know, 591 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: it's pastime. And you know, we're honored to be in 592 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: a position where we can hopefully show the governor it's 593 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: the right time to do this. 594 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 2: Yes, and the good news is that, by all accounts, 595 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 2: this governor is a reasonable man. He's had experience. He's 596 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 2: visited a juvenile detention facilities one of the first things 597 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 2: he did. 598 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: That, that's right, he did. And he comes from the 599 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: education system. You know, he was the head of the 600 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: Wisconsin Board of Education before he assumed the governor's office. 601 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: So this is somebody who understands. You know, Brendan was 602 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: a tenth grader in the public school special education system, right, 603 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: That's who he was in many ways, it's still who 604 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: he is. 605 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 2: Brendan. You know, one of the things I was personally 606 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: so struck by was when we spoke yesterday about your 607 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 2: dreams for after you get out what you want to 608 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: do in the world. Do you mind sort of talking 609 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: about that a little bit. 610 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 4: I mean, like getting into making and playing video games. 611 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and hopefully getting paid for it. Yeah. We 612 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: always I think it was Laura that asked you, if 613 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: you had a superpower, what would. 614 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: That's right, That's always one of my favorite questions to ask, Brendan. 615 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 4: I would want to have the power to heal illnesses 616 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 4: and diseases all over the world. 617 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 2: And where do you think that comes from? Like, I mean, 618 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 2: it's a great superpower. I'd like to have it too. 619 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 2: But of all the things, why do you think that 620 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: one is the one that came to your mind. 621 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 4: Well, I just like helping people, so I wanted to 622 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 4: help other people in the world. 623 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 2: I mean, look, there's a lot of people that want 624 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 2: to help you too, and it's amazing. We talked about 625 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 2: yesterday how many letters you get. Do you figure you've 626 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: gotten letters from every state in the country by now, 627 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 2: all fifty states. 628 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 4: It's got to be close. 629 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 2: Uh huh, you. 630 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: Know, Brendan, why don't you tell them some of the 631 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: countries that people have sent you letters from? Do you 632 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: remember some of the. 633 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 4: Countries Singapore, Ireland, Iceland, South America, Canada, Hawaii, New Zealand. 634 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: Too, Yeah, even Australia, right, Australia, it's amazing, and also 635 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: some from Wisconsin. Right. Yeah, that's great. 636 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 2: So there's tens of millions of people now all over 637 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: the world, as you know, who have watched Making a 638 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 2: Murderer have learned about your story. Do you want to 639 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 2: see the show when you get out? Are you interested? 640 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 4: I might eat. I don't know if I can. 641 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: No, Yeah, you mean it might be hard to watch. 642 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, more or less because I lived it, 643 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 4: So why would I want to watch it again? 644 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 2: Really understandable after everything you've been through and all the 645 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 2: twists and turns and the freedom being sort of, you know, 646 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 2: yanked away from you twice? Really? 647 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 4: Yeah? 648 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 2: What was that? Like? Your bags were packed, right, You're 649 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 2: ready to go home, and then they pulled the rug 650 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 2: out from under you. I mean I would think that 651 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 2: would make somebody crazy. 652 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. I I was a little depressed, you know, and 653 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 4: called my mom that night and you know I was, 654 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 4: I was upset, you know, and so she was she 655 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 4: you know, she thought I was going to be coming home, 656 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 4: you know, and I was willing to give up all 657 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 4: my stuff, you know, just walk out the doors with nothing. 658 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 2: Right, So you were going to give it to some 659 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 2: of the other guys in there. 660 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 4: Or either that or or just tell all the prison 661 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 4: that they can keep it. 662 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 2: Right, Well, you weren't going to need it anymore. 663 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, what helps you sort of get through this, Brendon? 664 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: As this was all happening to you, Where did you 665 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: find your strength? 666 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 4: Mostly having my family support me and have. 667 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 2: My back, Yeah, especially your mom, right. Yeah, so it's 668 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 2: visiting day, right, Yeah, I'll. 669 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 4: Be getting a visit from my mom tonight. M It 670 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 4: means everything, you know. They have a family that loves 671 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 4: and supports me no matter what, and they always have 672 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 4: my back, you know. 673 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's real is heartening to know that so 674 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 2: many people care and still care. And what would you 675 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 2: tell people that want to get involved that have seen 676 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 2: your story didn't really have any idea of what goes 677 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 2: on in our justice system, but now they do. Is 678 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 2: there anything particular that you could advise someone. 679 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 4: Just keep fighting for me and keep showing your love 680 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 4: and support. 681 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 2: And then there's a lot of ways to do that, 682 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,720 Speaker 2: and going to Innocenceproject dot org is a good place 683 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 2: to start, Laura. Are there other places people can go 684 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 2: to learn more about this case and to follow your 685 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 2: progress and the progress and getting Brendan home. 686 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Folks can go to CWCY dot org. That's the 687 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth. You can learn a 688 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: lot more about Brendan's case, read as legal papers and 689 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 1: follow developments as they happen. 690 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 2: And do you have social media yourself that we can 691 00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 2: tag you in here because we want to have people 692 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 2: follow you and your progress, not only on Brenda's case, 693 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: but also on all the other amazing work that you're doing. 694 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: I do, I do. I'm on Instagram and Twitter both 695 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: at Laura and I writer. 696 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 2: That's easy, that's at Laura and I writer. 697 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 1: That's right. 698 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 2: And now, as regular listeners of the show know, it's 699 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 2: time for the best part of the show, closing arguments, 700 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 2: where I get to just kick back in my chair 701 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 2: turn my microphone off. First of all, thank you again 702 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 2: for taking the time to share your thoughts and your 703 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 2: perspective and your spirit with me. And with our audience, 704 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 2: And of course thank you Laura for arranging this and 705 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 2: for being such a passionate, dedicated, obsessive justice fighter, and 706 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 2: for being on the show. So Laura, first, thank you 707 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 2: for being here. 708 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for giving this opportunity to let the world hear 709 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: who Brendan Naci is. You know, there have been so 710 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: many people out there who watched Making a Murderer and 711 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: were moved disturbed Brendan's story, and who've reached out to 712 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: us to ask what they can do to help Brendan. 713 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: There's something really easy you can do. Maybe this upcoming weekend, 714 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: you find yourself in the extra ten minutes a time, 715 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: think about sending him a letter. Right. These letters don't 716 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: have to be long, they don't have to be powerful, 717 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: but just tell him, you know, keep your head high. 718 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: I believe in you. Right, we're fighting for you. It'll 719 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: happen for you. These letters are such a small gesture 720 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: on the part of every one of us, but they 721 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: sustain him, right. They give him hope every day, and 722 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: that gives us the hope we need to keep on fighting. 723 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: So find his address on the Wisconsin Department of Corrections website. 724 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,399 Speaker 1: He's in the Oshkosh Correctional Institution. Reach out to him, 725 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: let him know he's got friends all over the world 726 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,280 Speaker 1: who believe in him. If you want to get involved 727 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: in other ways, you can do that. You can educate yourself. 728 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,240 Speaker 1: There are a lot of other books, films, TV shows 729 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: about wrongful conviction. Right, Brendan is not the only one. 730 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: Get out there. Watch when they see us, Right, Watch 731 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: the Paradise Last series about the West Memphis three or 732 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: West of Memphis. Watch You Murder on a Sunday morning, Right, 733 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: watch the confession tapes. You can see incredible shows, read 734 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: incredible books about this happening over and over, some of 735 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: which we've mentioned today, and you can get out there. 736 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: Of course, you can support organizations like the Center on 737 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: Wrongful Convictions or the Innocence Project or a lot of 738 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 1: other incredible organizations that do this work. But most importantly, right, 739 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: don't stop saying Brendan Dacy's name. Get out there on 740 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: social media, remember him, Keep insisting that the people with 741 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: power in this system do justice for Brendan. Write letters 742 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: to the governor of Wisconsin. Tell him what you see 743 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: when you see Brendan on TV. Tell him what you 744 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: hear when you hear Brendan on a podcast like this, 745 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 1: especially if you live in Wisconsin, tell him you want 746 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: Brendan home. That's the difference that you can make. It's 747 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: a huge difference. We rely on people like you to 748 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: light the way, to show the path. We're doing the 749 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: right thing here. So thank you to everybody who's written 750 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: to Brendan. Keep doing it, keep showing your support. Let's 751 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: get him home together. 752 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 2: And Brendan, thank you again for you know, letting me 753 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 2: come see you and for spending time on the air 754 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 2: with us today. And now I get to leave it 755 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 2: open for you to say whatever you want as we 756 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 2: close the show. 757 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,359 Speaker 4: I don't know what to say. I love Pokemon and 758 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:58,439 Speaker 4: my favorite Pokemon is Mew. But there's a new one 759 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 4: coming out called El Creamy that I really like, and 760 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,439 Speaker 4: hopefully I get to see some of the more new 761 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 4: ones coming out pretty soon. 762 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm. 763 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 2: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the 764 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 2: link in our bio to see how you can help. 765 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 2: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburn, 766 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 2: and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show as always 767 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 2: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 768 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 2: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and 769 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 2: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason 770 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 2: Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and 771 00:41:47,680 --> 00:42:01,919 Speaker 2: association with Signal Company Number one