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Speaker 1: Hey, Coast to Coast listeners, are you need of company

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Speaker 1: during those strange days and lonely nights? Every Monday, Molly Lambert,

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Speaker 1: test Lynch and myself Emily Yoshida gathering dark rooms on

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Speaker 1: of pop culture, theory, internet fascinations, and venture down a

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Speaker 1: plethora of half baked conspiracy theory rabbit holes. Fans of

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast should know that Art Bell is actually

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Speaker 1: a huge influence on our show, So if you're looking

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Speaker 1: for a younger perspective on a lot of the theories

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Speaker 1: and stuff that he was always into, then you will

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Speaker 1: definitely enjoy our podcast. Everything from advice on life and love,

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Speaker 1: to ghost stories to alien sightings, our thoughts on astrology

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Speaker 1: and the coming apocalypse. Listen to Night Call on iHeart Radio,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, on iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite podcasts. Now here's a highlight from Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast am on iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast

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Speaker 1: to Coast George and are you with You? Nick Pope

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Speaker 1: was an official at the United Kingdom's Ministry of Defense

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Speaker 1: from to two thousand six. He was also at the

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Speaker 1: desk officer responsible for investigating officially documented UFO sightings to

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Speaker 1: determine whether they involved any potential threat to the UK.

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Speaker 1: Nick and his colleagues became privately convinced that there were

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Speaker 1: important defense, national security, and flight safety issues involved with

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Speaker 1: these unexplained phenomenon. He now works as a broadcaster journalists

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Speaker 1: covering subjects including the unexplained conspiracy theories. And of course

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Speaker 1: he was just with me just a few months ago

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Speaker 1: at one of our live events, and you were wonderful Nick,

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Speaker 1: at a great time. People are still emailing me about you,

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Speaker 1: my friend. Anyway, the United Kingdom are they withholding uf

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Speaker 1: O files? What are they doing? Well? This is turning

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Speaker 1: into quite as argue. On Monday May fourteen, it will

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Speaker 1: be the ten year anniversary of the program to declassify

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Speaker 1: and release the British government's files. And at the time

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Speaker 1: I came out of retirement from the Ministry of Defense,

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Speaker 1: I helped the British National Archives with this program. I

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Speaker 1: made the official announcement, publicized it and at the time

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Speaker 1: we said this whole process should take two to three years,

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Speaker 1: and here we are ten years on and it's still

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Speaker 1: not done well. Here. It's a long, complicated story. Effectively,

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Speaker 1: there there seemed to have been some problems with three

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Speaker 1: of the files in particular, but I need to take

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Speaker 1: it back a step further. June two thousand thirteen, the

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Speaker 1: Ministry of Defense and the National Archives said, okay, we

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Speaker 1: have now released the final files. At that point, John

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Speaker 1: Burrows of the Randall Sham Forest incident, one of the

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Speaker 1: key witnesses, he was doing his own fairly proactive Freedom

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Speaker 1: of Information Act with the Ministry of Defense and he said,

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Speaker 1: I don't believe it. There are some gaps here that

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Speaker 1: the full story has yet to emerge, and he was

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Speaker 1: making a lot of Freedom of Information Act requests and

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Speaker 1: sure enough, the Ministry of Defense got back to John

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Speaker 1: Burrows and said, we've we told you that we've released

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Speaker 1: all the files. We found another eighteen and we were

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Speaker 1: told yeah, they'll be out in a year or two,

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Speaker 1: and that deadline came and went. Then fifteen of the

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Speaker 1: files last year did get released, so just three to go.

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Speaker 1: But I tell you those have been too ing and

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Speaker 1: throwing between the Ministry of Defense and the National Archives,

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Speaker 1: and nobody's quite sure what's going on. It's it's almost

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Speaker 1: far sickle now the three files that are still being

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Speaker 1: held back, what might they contain. Well, one of the

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Speaker 1: files is comparatively uninteresting, and I know that might sound bizarre.

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Speaker 1: I mean, gosh, it's a Ministry of Defense, the UFO files.

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Speaker 1: Anything in there would be good to be. Well. It's

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Speaker 1: largely a file of just citing reports, mainly from the public,

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Speaker 1: and it duplicates a lot of material that's already been

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Speaker 1: released in previous batches. And it's from one of the

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Speaker 1: Air defense divisions in the ministry, so it's it's radar specialists.

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Speaker 1: But effectively the same papers were being circulated between a

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Speaker 1: number of different divisions. So those those papers, I think

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Speaker 1: most people will have seen them before. The two files

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Speaker 1: that are much more interesting our Defense Intelligence Staff files,

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Speaker 1: and the type of of the files is essentially UFOs policy,

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Speaker 1: and that's effectively the intelligence, the scientific and intelligence personnel

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Speaker 1: at the Ministry of Defense saying what do we make

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Speaker 1: of this phenomenon? How are we going to handle it?

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Speaker 1: And there's also documents in there relating to the setting

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Speaker 1: up of something that you and I have discussed quite

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Speaker 1: a bit before, Project Condine. This amazing intelligence assessment of

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Speaker 1: the phenomenon that we did Nick. Let's go back to

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Speaker 1: the beginning. How did you get involved with this with

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Speaker 1: the Ministry of Defense? How did you get assigned to this? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I I just this was my career and and I

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Speaker 1: had done a couple of jobs. Actually, they move you

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Speaker 1: around every few years, every three or four years, either

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Speaker 1: on level transfer or promotion. My first job in the

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Speaker 1: Ministry Defense was actually a Navy department job, and my

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Speaker 1: duties were to act as a liaison between the oil

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Speaker 1: and gas industry and the Royal Navy and just basically

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Speaker 1: to keep everyone out of each other's way in the

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Speaker 1: UK's territorial waters. And it was just all about keeping

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Speaker 1: the information flowing, keeping everyone informed. Then I did a

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Speaker 1: personnel job and then I got seconded into the Joint

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Speaker 1: Operations Center during the First Gulf War. And while I

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Speaker 1: was there, there were some discussions about what my next

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Speaker 1: substantive posting would be. And the manager that I was

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Speaker 1: working to down there said, I've got an interesting job

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Speaker 1: coming up, and I know that you're due for a move.

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Speaker 1: Do you want it? And I said what's the job?

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Speaker 1: And he said it's UFOs. I sort of looked at

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Speaker 1: him and said, okay, I'll give it. A go, and

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Speaker 1: so so that was that was effectively the situation. I

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Speaker 1: had no interest in the subject, no knowledge of it,

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Speaker 1: no no desire to particularly do that job, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: but it was just another government job, and I got

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Speaker 1: slotted in to do it. When you started seeing some

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Speaker 1: of these truly remarkable cases, did you believe them in

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Speaker 1: the beginning? Not really. I thought that most of them

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Speaker 1: were probably misidentifications and maybe the odd hoax or mirage

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Speaker 1: something like that. And and of course a vast proportion

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Speaker 1: of them turned out to be precisely that, particularly misidentifications.

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Speaker 1: We didn't actually get that many hoaxes. I think the

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Speaker 1: civilian UFO groups might, but people were understandably, I think

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Speaker 1: a little bit more cautious about trying to hoax the

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Speaker 1: government in case we sent the men in black ground,

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Speaker 1: I suppose, but no I I The more I looked, though,

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Speaker 1: particularly into the back files, the archive that we had

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Speaker 1: dating back to the fifties, the more I began to

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Speaker 1: see that some of these cases were really quite interesting.

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Speaker 1: And we've had cases, for example, not a million miles

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Speaker 1: away from the sorts of things that have been discussed

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Speaker 1: recently in relation to the Pentagon program, where we had

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Speaker 1: Air Force pilots chasing these things and on occasion getting

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Speaker 1: gun camera footage, and right back in in the fifties

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Speaker 1: and the sixties. So not not too different, as I say,

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Speaker 1: from from the sorts of stories coming out now from

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Speaker 1: the United States. Nick, I have known you to be

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Speaker 1: above board, to be as aggressive as you can be.

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Speaker 1: Yet there are some people in the field who think

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Speaker 1: that you're part of a cover up. Still, yes, in

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Speaker 1: a sense, there's nothing that I can do about people

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Speaker 1: who have that particular a view. I mean, if I

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Speaker 1: deny it, they'll just say that I'm lying. If I

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Speaker 1: don't know, M kind of got the Ministry Defense Press

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Speaker 1: Office to say no, no, he really isn't secretly still

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Speaker 1: working for us. They'd simply say, well, they would say that,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't they. So it's a lose lose situation. And so

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Speaker 1: there's really nothing I can do. I mean, of course,

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Speaker 1: I've got my Ministry Defense pension that I get. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I'm still bound by the official secret the UK's security Oath.

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Speaker 1: You're going to be at contact in the desert in

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks with me, aren't you absolutely looking

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Speaker 1: forward to Yes, it's going to be a great conference.

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Speaker 1: We'll probably chat about that later in the show, but

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Speaker 1: looking forward to seeing you again, and I'm sure we'll

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Speaker 1: be discussing a lot of the things that we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here. You sure will and we will too. How

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Speaker 1: did you like doing our live stage so in Salt

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Speaker 1: Lake City? It was great fun. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: radio is great, and you know I don't have to

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Speaker 1: tell you that of all people, but you know, there's

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Speaker 1: nothing like actually getting out there and meeting the people. No,

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Speaker 1: I know that one on one is so important, isn't it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you get that interactive approach, you get much much more

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Speaker 1: of a free flowing conversation. Perhaps people feel that they

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Speaker 1: are a part of something. And you know, I think

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Speaker 1: the thing about your life shows is that they're both informative,

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Speaker 1: but they're fun too. People really enjoy them. They are

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Speaker 1: fun there and nobody ran out when I started singing

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Speaker 1: that was impressive. Nick. Back to these UFOL cases. Are

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Speaker 1: there some cases that you saw that came across your

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Speaker 1: desk that we're just so outstanding that you just almost

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Speaker 1: fell off your chair? Yes, I mean some of the ones,

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Speaker 1: particularly where pilots were seeing these things and having near missus.

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Speaker 1: The one comes to mind of of a pilot who

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Speaker 1: was on the in the cockpit of the aircraft. Commercial aircraft,

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Speaker 1: hundred plus passengers on board huge delta shaped craft suddenly

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Speaker 1: comes towards them and the pilot almost literally just braced

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Speaker 1: for impact and he only had time to shout out

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Speaker 1: to the co pilot look out, look out, Um, they

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Speaker 1: braced and this thing just passed by. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: nothing on radar um. You know, sometimes these things show up,

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Speaker 1: sometimes not. And of course they filed a report and

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Speaker 1: then it fell into the odd category. And I think

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Speaker 1: this is the case sometimes in the US too. Where

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Speaker 1: is it a defense issue or is it a civil

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Speaker 1: aviation issue? I mean, in other words, if something like

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Speaker 1: that happens here in the US, should this be a

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Speaker 1: d D lead investigation or should the f a A

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Speaker 1: take take the lead or all of them? Yeah, in

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Speaker 1: my experience, you know, you've got to put one person

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Speaker 1: in charge. And but sometimes I think these things got

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Speaker 1: got overly complicated by the fact that that you know,

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Speaker 1: no one knows knew who was heading up the investigation.

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Speaker 1: Two different organizations had a file on the same thing,

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Speaker 1: and it would recipe for disaster. Nick Paup with US.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about UFO files in Britain, but what about

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Speaker 1: the United States? Also on Nick, have you had sources

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Speaker 1: that have told you what's going on over here? No,

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Speaker 1: not really. I've I've had a couple of email exchanges,

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Speaker 1: i suppose with with people like Louis Arizondo, who maybe

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Speaker 1: we will probably get onto discussing him as as well

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Speaker 1: from the Pentagon's UFO program. And certainly there are a

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Speaker 1: similar tis I think in our experience of this subject

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Speaker 1: within government, and and similarities I think in in our

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Speaker 1: take on this and and indeed there was just a

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Speaker 1: report in the media this week about, of of all things,

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Speaker 1: the religious aspect of this and the pushback that he's

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Speaker 1: mentioned getting from senior Pentagon managers. And it was occasionally

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Speaker 1: a factor at the Ministry of Defense to not predominantly

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Speaker 1: on my watch, I have to say, but it was.

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Speaker 1: It was always something lurking in the background. So I've

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Speaker 1: I've had some discussions with him. I've had over the years,

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Speaker 1: some discussions with some of the people quite elderly now

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Speaker 1: of course, who were involved in in Blue Book, but

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Speaker 1: fairly limited. There's surprisingly little information exchange and liaison on

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Speaker 1: this subject, which again I think is a mistake. I

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Speaker 1: think so too. It seems to me they'll next that recently,

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Speaker 1: over the last year, we seem to be getting more

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Speaker 1: information about government involvement in studying, probing looking for UFOs

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Speaker 1: than ever before. Why is that? Well, I think the

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Speaker 1: December revelations about the Pentagon program were an absolute watershed

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Speaker 1: moment in million dollars. So what do you think with

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Speaker 1: a lot of money or not not in the great

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Speaker 1: scheme of things, of course? I mean, goodness knows how

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Speaker 1: much the total Pentagon budget is? Now? What is it?

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Speaker 1: Five billion? Billion? Probably maybe trillion, who knows? You know, Um,

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Speaker 1: what is the old joke? A billion here, a billion there.

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Speaker 1: Pretty soon you're talking some serious money. But um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure that that's the full cost of this program.

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Speaker 1: There are always ways of massaging the figures, and very

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Speaker 1: often with these things, you if you want to d

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Speaker 1: on play something and we did this in the Ministry Defense,

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Speaker 1: you quote the additional cash costs of a program, but

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Speaker 1: not the resource costs. In other words, when costing out

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Speaker 1: the British government's UFO project, for example, um, we didn't

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Speaker 1: include anything for the military radar systems that that we

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Speaker 1: interrogate when we investigate these things. Well, obviously every time

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Speaker 1: you use something like that, there is a resource cost,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't show up in the figures. So there

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Speaker 1: are always ways of playing this. But this whole Pentagon story,

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Speaker 1: of course, is is still playing out on an almost

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Speaker 1: daily basis. I mean just literally within the last few days.

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Speaker 1: Were you surprised by the story? Not really, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it would be crazy to assume that these

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Speaker 1: things were being seen by civil and military pilots and

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Speaker 1: tract on radar and there wouldn't be a program to

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Speaker 1: look at this. I mean, so, so it didn't surprise me,

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Speaker 1: but it obviously took by surprise a lot of the

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Speaker 1: mainstream media. I mean the fact that The Times ran it,

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Speaker 1: and then then The Post and Politico, all the big

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Speaker 1: TV networks ran it. They were obviously surprised, and I

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Speaker 1: can understand why. For years, of course, the US government

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Speaker 1: used to to say, and it was on the websites

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Speaker 1: and things, yeah, we we don't do this, we're not interested,

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Speaker 1: we don't research, we don't investigate. And so of course

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Speaker 1: when it turned out that oh yes they do, the

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Speaker 1: media were like, hey, we've got them, We've got some

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Speaker 1: sort of smoking gun here. Listen to more Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast a m. Every weeknight at one a m. Eastern,

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Speaker 1: and go to Coast to Coast am dot com for

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Speaker 1: more