Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset,
Speaker 1: I am a loser if also women know wouldn't pay
Speaker 1: me either.
Speaker 2: A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at
Speaker 2: a deadly tipping point.
Speaker 3: In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide.
Speaker 4: I see literally zero hope.
Speaker 1: This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio Season one, episode four one shot at the market.
Speaker 2: As much as eighty percent of them cells report thoughts
Speaker 2: of suicide.
Speaker 5: I just hate myself. We all hate our self. Women
Speaker 5: our so materialistic, they always choose chads over nice guys
Speaker 5: like me.
Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at Kat's Studios. With Stephanie Leideker,
Speaker 1: Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. We've been talking
Speaker 1: about in Cells, and now it's time to hear directly
Speaker 1: from them. Three men generously offered to speak with the US,
Speaker 1: and it's important to hear their personal stories. Here's mister East,
Speaker 1: who is protecting his identity. The twenty three year old
Speaker 1: describes himself as a longtime lurker of Blackpill in cell spaces.
Speaker 1: A lurker is a user of social media or online
Speaker 1: communities who consumes content without actively posting or commenting. The
Speaker 1: majority of us are lurkers. Here's mister East.
Speaker 5: I used to lurk on the Forever Loan reddit and
Speaker 5: there was actually a lot of insults from that community
Speaker 5: in particular who like to just post on that subreddit.
Speaker 5: I think it's because a lot of them are they're
Speaker 5: pretty like socially isolated, lonely, and yeah, that's how I
Speaker 5: got more involved within like this particular sphere.
Speaker 1: We asked mister East to tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about his background. He's followed by producer Gabriel Castillo.
Speaker 5: I am East Asian. I am of Chinese descent, so
Speaker 5: might be an issue, especially when I'm living in a
Speaker 5: city that's like majority white. The beauty standards here are
Speaker 5: also white. Here's the fact that I am neurodivergent. I
Speaker 5: am like high functioning autistic. It might not show like
Speaker 5: when I'm talking with people online, but when I'm in person,
Speaker 5: I am a bit more socially awkward.
Speaker 6: What was your experience like growing up?
Speaker 5: I was pretty much socially isolated throughout my childhood, so
Speaker 5: that doesn't really help either. If you're neurodivergent, obviously you're
Speaker 5: going to have a lot more trouble getting along with
Speaker 5: people socially, So that's a big factor and a lot
Speaker 5: of insult I noticed are neurodivergent to certain degrees, maybe
Speaker 5: not like enormously, but enough so that they act more
Speaker 5: socially awkward and they can sense that, and they might
Speaker 5: feel a bit more uncomfortable, or they might think that
Speaker 5: you're weird and not just play into your success. Neurodivergency
Speaker 5: is like, this is like a huge spectrum, but generally
Speaker 5: patterns within neurodivergent people are more one way or the other.
Speaker 5: They're less likely to be more compromising as a result,
Speaker 5: be more easily radicalized.
Speaker 1: Mysteries identifies as being black pilled, which in general is
Speaker 1: defined as holding a nihilistic worldview. But here's his personal perspective.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of different definitions on how people see
Speaker 5: the black pill, with a lot of people with an
Speaker 5: insult community to see it as in terms of like
Speaker 5: dating context, if you don't have the looks, then you're finished.
Speaker 5: Basically you don't stand a chance. I see the blackpill
Speaker 5: more as like a spectrum. Basically, certain traits you have,
Speaker 5: such as looks, you know, wealth, they make it more
Speaker 5: likely for you to succeed within a certain context. I
Speaker 5: think in the most part, black pill is more of
Speaker 5: like understanding and acceptance that some aspects of yourself are
Speaker 5: not able to be controlled by you, and these aspects
Speaker 5: of yourself may influence your success, and that by no
Speaker 5: means is any fault of your own.
Speaker 6: Would you mind giving me the definition of a red
Speaker 6: pill blue pill as well?
Speaker 5: Well, I mean for red pill. Honestly, I'm I've never
Speaker 5: been part of the like the so called red pill manosphere,
Speaker 5: so I can't really tell you what exactly they believe
Speaker 5: were what they think about. So what the blue pill
Speaker 5: refers to is the idea that of meritocracy. You know,
Speaker 5: if you improve yourself, you will succeed. There are some
Speaker 5: areas within the black pill community who are like misogynistic,
Speaker 5: mostly out of anger and like frustration of their failures
Speaker 5: and like things that can't control. It also is largely
Speaker 5: motivated by, like the blue pill gas lighting that occurs
Speaker 5: within society at large. You just got to work hard,
Speaker 5: you just got to grind, You just got to like
Speaker 5: make money and like, you know, get bitches, so to speak.
Speaker 5: Despite what popular consensus believes it does, really heavily depend
Speaker 5: on your looks and your ability to basically socialize. I mean,
Speaker 5: I am involuntarily celibate by the definition of the word,
Speaker 5: but I'm not as bothered by it as some people
Speaker 5: within the community are.
Speaker 1: We asked mister East what he thought the information available
Speaker 1: online and in the media has done to the term in.
Speaker 5: Cell, society at large, and in popular media in general.
Speaker 5: They've kind of twisted the term into like something that
Speaker 5: refers to someone who is misogynistic. And I feel like
Speaker 5: a lot of online like feminist types has furthered that
Speaker 5: to like any man I disagree with, and I think
Speaker 5: that in a long term is only going to play
Speaker 5: into polarizing men from women, furthering the gender divide. Also,
Speaker 5: I find it quite funny because in cell means involuntarily celibate,
Speaker 5: which means you can't get sex, no bitches. So basically
Speaker 5: you're insulting someone for their sexual value and sexual experience.
Speaker 5: And for society that supposedly says, oh, you're not having sex,
Speaker 5: you're not sexually successful, that that's fine. You know, you're
Speaker 5: worrying about it too much. They very quickly used it
Speaker 5: as an insult.
Speaker 1: When mysteries talks about misconceptions. He's pointing to something deeper.
Speaker 1: The term in cell has been distorted, often used as
Speaker 1: a catch all insult. He sees this as widening the
Speaker 1: divide between men and women in a world shape by
Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations.
Speaker 5: There are actually a lot of mixed misconceptions in general.
Speaker 5: I think the popular media tends to lump together red pill,
Speaker 5: black pill, and just in cells all into one like
Speaker 5: group of in cells, which is basically just what they
Speaker 5: believe are like misogynistic and green lonely men who can't
Speaker 5: get a girlfriend will. While I think that's highly ingenuous,
Speaker 5: and there is certain aspects such as social media does
Speaker 5: cause like an unreal expectation in a way for a
Speaker 5: potential romantic partners. So I think as this happens, more
Speaker 5: and more men might find themselves embroiled within this space.
Speaker 5: And I think society does need to do more to
Speaker 5: address these types of issues.
Speaker 1: We asked mister East if you thought some men fell
Speaker 1: into in sell communities.
Speaker 5: Society doesn't tell everyone just be nice, just be confident,
Speaker 5: you will succeed if you do all that. Obviously, for
Speaker 5: many people that might not work, so they might be confused,
Speaker 5: They might be like, why isn't this working? That's when
Speaker 5: they start searching online.
Speaker 2: What a community is.
Speaker 5: As marginalized as the black pills. I think it is
Speaker 5: more difficult for a lot of to really take in
Speaker 5: any outside messaging.
Speaker 6: Have you found more good relationships or bad relationships within
Speaker 6: the community When.
Speaker 5: You don't have any real life relationships and you instead
Speaker 5: spend all your times within these echo chambers that are
Speaker 5: just born from people's pain and anger and frustration, it
Speaker 5: does cause many people to become more and more radicalized,
Speaker 5: and basically online is like a replacement for real life loneliness.
Speaker 5: You will still feel lonely even if you are a
Speaker 5: part of these communities. But there's also like some that
Speaker 5: are like, you know, it's over. I just hate myself.
Speaker 5: We all hate our self. Women are so materialistic they
Speaker 5: always choose chads over nice guys like me.
Speaker 1: Mysteries talks about what he sees as made up social
Speaker 1: groups and what he calls the inceell versus normally conflict,
Speaker 1: enormous slang for a normal, ordinary person who appears to
Speaker 1: form romantic and sexual relationships easily.
Speaker 5: There are studies that show that people will like human
Speaker 5: beings in general, will automatically form groups. If they aren't
Speaker 5: part of an already existing group, they will form artificial
Speaker 5: groups to make themselves feel included. I think in a way,
Speaker 5: what this current like in cell versus normy conflict is
Speaker 5: is that artificial groups are forming, whether you are an
Speaker 5: insult or whether you are a normy, And when these
Speaker 5: types of groups form, people are more likely to see
Speaker 5: outside groups as a monolis. Basically, I think that's what
Speaker 5: contributes to like inceels seeing all normies as just bluepill brainwashed,
Speaker 5: and like normally seeing in cells as all just misogynistic
Speaker 5: terrors mass shooters.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 5: And I've seen a lot of like in cell interviews
Speaker 5: online because they are also anonymous online, they're more bold.
Speaker 6: If I were female conducting this interview, or if I
Speaker 6: was a female who was reaching out to all these people,
Speaker 6: would the reciprocation be very different.
Speaker 5: Gender would probably play a certain factor, even if a
Speaker 5: lot of people wouldn't admit it, because subconsciously you're not
Speaker 5: only part of the normal out group, You're also part
Speaker 5: of the female, which is an how their group. So
Speaker 5: I think people might be more wary if you are
Speaker 5: female nor me.
Speaker 6: What advice would you give to someone younger who is
Speaker 6: beginning to feel isolated or turning towards these spaces. Any
Speaker 6: advice that you'd like to.
Speaker 5: Give, honestly, not really. I feel like it's kind of
Speaker 5: inevitable for a lot of people to run into these
Speaker 5: types of spaces, especially if they're socially isolated. In order
Speaker 5: for young people to not fall into this rabbit hole
Speaker 5: or like not to be as misogynistic as they may
Speaker 5: turn out to be, I think it's more society to change.
Speaker 5: And I do appreciate, like while you just like, you know,
Speaker 5: trying to see the other side. I feel like a
Speaker 5: lot of people they kind of DEMONI as a community
Speaker 5: and like make it look bad and what it actually is,
Speaker 5: especially for like a lot of men who already already
Speaker 5: like see themselves like socially isolated, might feel more bad
Speaker 5: about themselves. And I feel it's important to get this
Speaker 5: side of the story as well.
Speaker 1: M let's stop here for a break. We'll be back
Speaker 1: in a moment. We'll continue sharing interviews with two other
Speaker 1: self identifying in cells, but we wanted to step back
Speaker 1: for a moment for a broader perspect We spoke with
Speaker 1: doctor Lay, a clinical psychologist, sex therapist, and author of
Speaker 1: multiple books doctor Lay fills us in on some current statistics.
Speaker 2: I would say we have a fair bit of data
Speaker 2: at this point about who the typical in cell is.
Speaker 2: The majority of them look to be in their mid twenties, males, heterosexual,
Speaker 2: typically childless. Of course, a majority of in cells in
Speaker 2: the US and the United Kingdom are white, but a
Speaker 2: substantial percentage of in cells, perhaps as many as forty percent,
Speaker 2: identify as people of color. Research on in cells suggests
Speaker 2: that there may be between forty and a few hundred
Speaker 2: thousand kind of self identified in cells at any given time.
Speaker 2: It looks like there's around twenty five thousand active and
Speaker 2: participating in online in cell forums.
Speaker 1: Based on loose math we did, which is consistent with
Speaker 1: the report out from the UK government, approximately one point
Speaker 1: six percent of men between the ages of eighteen and
Speaker 1: thirty identify as in cells. That's between one and two
Speaker 1: out of every one hundred men. In earlier episodes, we
Speaker 1: talked about violent cases, the absolute worst outcomes. These events happened,
Speaker 1: and the families of the victims are still living with
Speaker 1: the repercussions. However, it's important to remember that violence in
Speaker 1: in cell communities is extremely rare. Doctor Lay walks us
Speaker 1: through some of the details.
Speaker 2: When it comes to violence, though, it's really important to
Speaker 2: understand that while the in cell community is perceived as
Speaker 2: being extremely violent and their rhetoric is often violent and misogynistic,
Speaker 2: it is relatively rare, actually quite rare, for inzels to
Speaker 2: actually engage in violence. There have certainly been some horrific
Speaker 2: tragedies with violent acts by insel individuals, but to date,
Speaker 2: fewer than sixty people worldwide have died by inceell violence.
Speaker 2: When you compare that to the violence related to terrorism,
Speaker 2: to ideological divides over religion, over white supremacy, et cetera,
Speaker 2: insel violence just doesn't measure up.
Speaker 1: A lot of in cels are struggling. Rates of social
Speaker 1: anxiety and depression are especially high, and many report dealing
Speaker 1: with mental health challenges of all kinds. Doctor Lay breaks
Speaker 1: it down with some statistics.
Speaker 2: Like all complicated human behaviors, these issues intermingle and interact
Speaker 2: in terms of cause and effect. It's important to know
Speaker 2: that there are extremely high levels of mental health struggles
Speaker 2: in the in cell community, very significant rates of depression
Speaker 2: and autism. Around thirty five to forty percent of in
Speaker 2: cells appear to have very serious depression. Around twenty to
Speaker 2: forty percent may have autism or autistic symptoms. It's important
Speaker 2: to note only around one percent of the general population
Speaker 2: has autism, so this indicates a really significant kind of
Speaker 2: predisposing factor that we Obviously autism would precede identifying as
Speaker 2: an insel, but then as individuals with these mental health
Speaker 2: conditions interact in these online communities, it starts to reinforce
Speaker 2: some of these aspects and symptoms of mental health problems,
Speaker 2: oftentimes exacerbating them.
Speaker 1: We want to be absolutely clear, we are in no
Speaker 1: way suggesting that having autism means someone is an insul.
Speaker 1: What we're doing is sharing information pointing out signs that
Speaker 1: may help identify when someone is at risk of struggling.
Speaker 1: With more on that, here's doctor lay Zidal.
Speaker 2: Ideation appears to be extremely common in the in cell community.
Speaker 2: As much as eighty percent of in cells report thoughts
Speaker 2: of suicide. It appears these mental vulnerabilities and struggles not
Speaker 2: only precede their identification as an insul, but also impact
Speaker 2: their success in dating their confidence, anxiety, social ability to
Speaker 2: interact and seek out partners, et cetera. What's more interesting, though,
Speaker 2: is that these vulnerabilities increase the risk of men becoming
Speaker 2: more ideological in the in cell community. And as they
Speaker 2: become more engaged in the in cell community, and they
Speaker 2: may experience what it's called identity fusion, where they take
Speaker 2: on the identity of this community as a significant part
Speaker 2: of their own identity. As that occurs with these mental
Speaker 2: predisposing vulnerabilities, they become more and more prone to engaging
Speaker 2: in or espousing violence. So we see all of these
Speaker 2: things interacting, feeding on each other in a dangerous kind
Speaker 2: of feedback loop.
Speaker 1: Doctor Lay says the pull of the in cell community
Speaker 1: can become deeply personal, where loneliness and ideology blur outside
Speaker 1: the data, those struggles sound different when you hear them firsthand. Sven,
Speaker 1: a self identified inseel in his early forties, offers a
Speaker 1: more introspective view. It's a completely different perspective than anything
Speaker 1: we've previously encountered. He spoke with investigative journalist Connor Powell
Speaker 1: about his relationship history with women.
Speaker 4: As far as romantic relationships go, I have had several,
Speaker 4: but they're very short lived. I was actually married in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty for a whopping three days. We're together, I
Speaker 4: guess for about a month. Got married, She disappeared after
Speaker 4: day three, never saw her again, got annulled, never had
Speaker 4: a divorce, And that was one of my longer relationships
Speaker 4: that They've been very few and very fast, like they
Speaker 4: appear and then disappear.
Speaker 3: That's there common theme for how the relationships end.
Speaker 4: I would say probably all different because someone else who
Speaker 4: I briefly dated, I found out the entire time that
Speaker 4: she was married. She was kind of leading me on,
Speaker 4: and I didn't see through that because she had children
Speaker 4: and I hung out with her and her children, and
Speaker 4: it never crossed my mind that she literally coached her
Speaker 4: children to lie to both her husband and to myself,
Speaker 4: and it just baffled my mind. But when I confronted
Speaker 4: her and after I found out she was married, she
Speaker 4: admitted to it. There's a part of me that wants
Speaker 4: to be understanding and say, well, you know, there's something
Speaker 4: in her life, in her upbringing that led her to
Speaker 4: think that that kind of behavior is okay. But on
Speaker 4: the other hand, like, where does that leave me?
Speaker 1: Explains what brought him into the black pill sphere?
Speaker 4: This is where it gets frustrating. So I'm going to
Speaker 4: kind of build myself up and then insult myself but
Speaker 4: you know, I'm a six foot four, very athletic mail
Speaker 4: I've had points in my life when I've made lots
Speaker 4: of money. Objectively, I don't think I'm any kind of
Speaker 4: good looking, but I've consistently heard from people like, oh,
Speaker 4: you're so great looking genetically. I have literally never had
Speaker 4: a health problem, so on paper, I should be the
Speaker 4: perfect specimen.
Speaker 7: And yet that has.
Speaker 4: Brought me to a very solid acceptance of the fact
Speaker 4: that I know I'm going to dialogue because now I've
Speaker 4: gotten to the point of my life and this is
Speaker 4: where I step into. I guess that sort of a
Speaker 4: black pilled sphere is to say that I'm jaded enough
Speaker 4: that seeing how things have gone in the past, that
Speaker 4: I may even turn down opportunities if they presented themselves.
Speaker 4: But I still call myself an insult because the opportunities
Speaker 4: are not presenting themselves to turn down.
Speaker 3: How would you just your lifestyle in terms of is
Speaker 3: it severely online?
Speaker 6: Is it a little bit online?
Speaker 4: Not that much, It's very rarely online. I kind of
Speaker 4: become kind of old man in that I've very much
Speaker 4: in a rhythm. You know, I go to work, do
Speaker 4: my time, come back, try to work out, eat, go
Speaker 4: to sleep. As far as connecting with people, I always
Speaker 4: kind of had. I don't know if it's the late
Speaker 4: twentieth century mindset of like you go to a bar,
Speaker 4: you could meet someone there, so on and so forth.
Speaker 1: Ven reflects on what it actually means to identify as
Speaker 1: an insul and whether or not he sees the label
Speaker 1: itself as an insult.
Speaker 4: I don't view it as derogatory, although this is probably
Speaker 4: very hypocritical of me. But one sort of term I've
Speaker 4: used even derogatorily myself is viewing someone as, say a
Speaker 4: shut in, i e. You try to avoid the world
Speaker 4: or don't get out, don't socialize. I would normally want
Speaker 4: to encourage you go out, talk to people, so on
Speaker 4: and so on. Then it ends up being kind of
Speaker 4: hypocritical because I do try to do that a lot.
Speaker 4: I try to be extremely social. I love social settings.
Speaker 4: But you know, I had that mindset for a while
Speaker 4: with bars, like I wanted to go talk to women,
Speaker 4: see where things would go, but never actually had anything
Speaker 4: turn into more than just a little conversation. You mentioned
Speaker 4: about people living online is kind of killing it in
Speaker 4: a different way because people who maybe once used to
Speaker 4: go to bars to meet people are now strictly on tender.
Speaker 4: That's why you end up going to bars. And there's
Speaker 4: the three old guys in the corner.
Speaker 3: One of the other recurring themes that you see.
Speaker 6: And I actually think it seems to.
Speaker 3: Be younger men, but there's a real anger and frustration
Speaker 3: with women, frustration that maybe turns the anger. Talk to
Speaker 3: a couple men who are sort of more in your age,
Speaker 3: you know, late thirties, early forties. They talk about loneliness,
Speaker 3: not anger, maybe frustration.
Speaker 6: I would absolutely say a frustration.
Speaker 4: And I have had feelings that you could call anger,
Speaker 4: but don't I don't sit with some kind of simmering disdain.
Speaker 3: Did you have this mentality in your teens in early
Speaker 3: twenties or is this the belt.
Speaker 4: The acceptance of basically like I'm going to dialan or
Speaker 4: I'm going to be alone for forever, so on so
Speaker 4: forth is more recent. You're constantly told that you know
Speaker 4: you'll find the right you know things will work out,
Speaker 4: you'll have your own family. But then when I've had
Speaker 4: basically twenty years of actively trying to do that, and
Speaker 4: I've had periods when I haven't and I've waited because
Speaker 4: you know, supposedly. Everyone also tells you it's when you
Speaker 4: stop looking that's when it will happen. First of all,
Speaker 4: that's not how life works. If you want something, you
Speaker 4: have to work for it. You can't just say I
Speaker 4: want to be rich, let me sit back and wait
Speaker 4: for it. I've done both, like, I've tried very hard.
Speaker 4: I've done the dating sides. I've been social. I've worked
Speaker 4: out to the point, you know, probably beyond the purview
Speaker 4: of what you're wanting to touch on. But I you know,
Speaker 4: I have six back, But I don't really feel that
Speaker 4: it comes down to that. There's an aspect of luck,
Speaker 4: like I almost feel like I'm cursed.
Speaker 3: As I've been talking to people about what the frustrations are,
Speaker 3: and you know, some of its heights, some of its baldness,
Speaker 3: some of its social awkwardness. There are themes, but there's
Speaker 3: also just this sort of feeling of hopelessness I guess
Speaker 3: in one's own situation, and everyone has a different situation.
Speaker 3: I mean, is that sort of.
Speaker 6: Accurate baldness and so forth.
Speaker 4: These don't resonate with me because they're not physical accuracies
Speaker 4: in my case, but the sense of hopelessness, at least
Speaker 4: as far as do I have any hope of anything
Speaker 4: in a romantic or I guess you know the term
Speaker 4: celibate relates specifically to the sexual connotations.
Speaker 6: I have zero.
Speaker 4: Hope for myself in either of those regards. So the
Speaker 4: sense of hopelessness, I would say, is very accurate. And
Speaker 4: so certainly when it comes to relationships and stuff, I
Speaker 4: use the term blackpill because I see literally zero hope,
Speaker 4: zero return on investment in any effort that goes into it.
Speaker 4: What are my options in twenty twenty five. Option A,
Speaker 4: try to go to a bar. Option B, try to
Speaker 4: open up some dating sites, start doing a little swiping
Speaker 4: or whatever. Or Option C just say screw it, you know,
Speaker 4: instead of having any kind of hope for that which
Speaker 4: you know, in a perfect world, I would love it.
Speaker 7: Perfect world I would have.
Speaker 4: Been married twenty years ago and stuck with it. But
Speaker 4: you know, instead, I'm gonna come back from work, work out,
Speaker 4: play guitar, and go to sleep and get ready to
Speaker 4: go get exhausted at work again tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
Speaker 1: a moment. We spoke with another self identified in cel
Speaker 1: who wants to protect his identity. Per his request, he's
Speaker 1: going by New Cold Squid and we're altering his voice.
Speaker 7: I'm New Cold Squid. I'm based in Australia, came from
Speaker 7: from a South Asian Muslim background. I've been identifying as
Speaker 7: black pilled for maybe five years now, since I turned
Speaker 7: twenty years old. I don't think I have any redeeming
Speaker 7: qualities to offset the negative effects, like I'm not tall
Speaker 7: enough to offset that but for race or personality or charm,
Speaker 7: and I'm not facially attractive, and I'm not rich. It's
Speaker 7: very hard for me to still hope for anything when
Speaker 7: the social feedback that you get is still very, very
Speaker 7: negative from the start.
Speaker 1: New Cold Squid first encountered the term in cell as
Speaker 1: a teenager, a common experience with many people we've spoken with.
Speaker 1: He highlights how the isolation of the pandemic contributed to
Speaker 1: where he is now.
Speaker 7: I always kind of knew what in cell meant basically,
Speaker 7: and so I've known that since I was fourteen fifteen
Speaker 7: years old. I didn't really actively pick part in any
Speaker 7: online communities until maybe twenty twenty around cod when I
Speaker 7: was more stuck at home than usual and more online
Speaker 7: and trying to find spaces where I felt like more
Speaker 7: people could actually connect with my actual experiences. I've usually
Speaker 7: been a shorthand displaying radio game into watching movies and stuff.
Speaker 7: But at one point it does get old and you
Speaker 7: start wanting some of that social connection. But you know
Speaker 7: that inability to get it is how I became intel identified.
Speaker 1: He describes growing up in a household that highly valued
Speaker 1: academic excellence. That pressure, combined with feelings of isolation, shaped
Speaker 1: much of how he sees himself today.
Speaker 7: Parental expectations are like super super high, and I'm okay academically,
Speaker 7: but I'm not special. So that mounted a lot of pressure,
Speaker 7: and there was a huge feeling of making a parents
Speaker 7: feel disappointed. So that that just added a lot to
Speaker 7: the worthlessness of it all. And yeah, it killed myself
Speaker 7: with even in terms of connecting to my parents, to
Speaker 7: family back home all that. But yeah, loneliness has definitely
Speaker 7: been a part of it. Loneliness part is a huge,
Speaker 7: huge thing or social animals right still need some kind
Speaker 7: of connection. How does it feel if you could just
Speaker 7: drop dead any minute and nobody will even notice. That's
Speaker 7: the just how I really followed at my worst point
Speaker 7: of life.
Speaker 6: Do you think five years ago you would have done
Speaker 6: an interview like this.
Speaker 7: Back then, I wouldn't have been able to because I
Speaker 7: wasn't really aware of what is making me feel so dead,
Speaker 7: so miserable, Like why am I always feeling down? I
Speaker 7: was also in denial of why I feel that way
Speaker 7: because you know, initially I did not want to identify
Speaker 7: as insult because obviously because of the negative connotations the
Speaker 7: label carries. So when I was in school and a
Speaker 7: lot of bullying happened, a lot of the bullying came
Speaker 7: from the girls as well, So to me it didn't
Speaker 7: really I didn't really have to ask them out to
Speaker 7: gauge if they liked me. They already made it clear
Speaker 7: how they see me, So for me, it kind of
Speaker 7: closed me on off into opening up a very very
Speaker 7: long time to anybody in general.
Speaker 6: Do you feel like a lot of these communities. Is
Speaker 6: it a lot more positive than negative or is it
Speaker 6: a lot more negative than positive?
Speaker 7: To be frank, it is probably negative. It is ever
Speaker 7: all miserable anyway, So it's negative, but it's our truth. Basically,
Speaker 7: I get a realistic but negative perspective than a toxic
Speaker 7: positive one just too. But that just makes me feel
Speaker 7: more miserable and not focus on other things.
Speaker 6: Essentially, do you think you would have viewed these groups
Speaker 6: differently when you were twenty years old than how you
Speaker 6: view it now.
Speaker 7: At twenty years old. I still hold on to those
Speaker 7: biases that you insult, probably violent, being misogynistic, or wanting
Speaker 7: to hurt people, kill them and shoot people up, stuff
Speaker 7: like that. So that is how I viewed the community
Speaker 7: at the time, as an actual ideology, so to speak.
Speaker 7: But now I don't think it's an ideology. It's just
Speaker 7: a state of being when you feel fundamentally inherently undesirable
Speaker 7: and you're kind of screwed. No matter what you do,
Speaker 7: you're going to be alone.
Speaker 6: How do you define it in cel It just.
Speaker 7: Means that you're inherently unable to attract a partner like
Speaker 7: you want one, but you are literally inherently unable to
Speaker 7: attract any partner no matter what you do, for both
Speaker 7: sex and both relationships. And I think that is the
Speaker 7: most fundamental definition of insul literally involuntarily celibate. I don't
Speaker 7: think having an ideology or having a certain hate has
Speaker 7: something to do with it. It's just a fundamental feeling
Speaker 7: of being undesirable to anybody. Someone like me, who's just
Speaker 7: trying to lead an honest life. I just think I
Speaker 7: I deserve maybe in a shot, just one shot at
Speaker 7: the market. I don't think I've actively been looking for
Speaker 7: a very very long time, or probably ever. But it
Speaker 7: also starts up in smaller, subtle passive aggressive behavior.
Speaker 1: We ask for an example of the subtle passive behaviors handcounters.
Speaker 7: When I say good morning to some of my coworkers,
Speaker 7: they just ignore me. They would just act like I'm
Speaker 7: not even there. Or when I do something do some
Speaker 7: kind of favor for them, they don't say thank you again,
Speaker 7: not just they won't even acknowledge me. Or when I
Speaker 7: ask a work related question, they'll give an answer to
Speaker 7: somebody else in my proximity and expect me to gauge
Speaker 7: from what they're saying to them.
Speaker 6: What are some big misconceptions people have had about the
Speaker 6: insul community.
Speaker 7: The main big thing is that we are all just
Speaker 7: only miserable because we want the top most attractive women
Speaker 7: as partners. Most of us are very happy with just average.
Speaker 7: We just want to be in a relationship where we
Speaker 7: actually feel loved and appreciated. But the thing is just
Speaker 7: because we are ready to date a so called fire
Speaker 7: out of ten doesn't mean they want to date a
Speaker 7: fire out of ten guy. That's something a lot of
Speaker 7: people need to think about.
Speaker 6: Do you have a piece of advice for younger people
Speaker 6: who are starting to feel very isolated and lonely and
Speaker 6: starting to look towards these forums.
Speaker 7: One big advice I would give them is to spend
Speaker 7: as less time as you can on social media. In
Speaker 7: my opinion, social media is the worst non violent invention
Speaker 7: made by humanity. Everything I said here, it's based on
Speaker 7: my experiences. I hope it can be of some use,
Speaker 7: and I hope maybe the conversations will change and people
Speaker 7: will start to interact with us in a different rate.
Speaker 1: We've heard from men who often feel unheard, stories marked
Speaker 1: by loneliness, rejection, and the need to belong. We've learned
Speaker 1: that empathy matters, compassion matters, and that real understanding cannot
Speaker 1: come from a place of judgment, but from listening. In
Speaker 1: the episodes ahead, we'll go deeper into the broader worlds
Speaker 1: of the manosphere, trolling culture, and a few corners we
Speaker 1: hadn't even heard of. We'll also continue hearing from more
Speaker 1: self identified insuls, sharing their experiences in their own words.
Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at kt Underscore Studios. In Cells is
Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 1: Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by
Speaker 1: Jeff Toois, Music by Vanicourt Studios. In sells us a
Speaker 1: production of Kat's Studios and iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.