1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset, 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: I am a loser if also women know wouldn't pay 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: me either. 4 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 2: A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at 5 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 2: a deadly tipping point. 6 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 3: In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide. 7 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 4: I see literally zero hope. 8 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and 9 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio Season one, episode four one shot at the market. 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: As much as eighty percent of them cells report thoughts 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: of suicide. 12 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 5: I just hate myself. We all hate our self. Women 13 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 5: our so materialistic, they always choose chads over nice guys 14 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 5: like me. 15 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at Kat's Studios. With Stephanie Leideker, 16 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. We've been talking 17 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: about in Cells, and now it's time to hear directly 18 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: from them. Three men generously offered to speak with the US, 19 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: and it's important to hear their personal stories. Here's mister East, 20 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: who is protecting his identity. The twenty three year old 21 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: describes himself as a longtime lurker of Blackpill in cell spaces. 22 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: A lurker is a user of social media or online 23 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: communities who consumes content without actively posting or commenting. The 24 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: majority of us are lurkers. Here's mister East. 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 5: I used to lurk on the Forever Loan reddit and 26 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 5: there was actually a lot of insults from that community 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 5: in particular who like to just post on that subreddit. 28 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 5: I think it's because a lot of them are they're 29 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 5: pretty like socially isolated, lonely, and yeah, that's how I 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 5: got more involved within like this particular sphere. 31 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: We asked mister East to tell us a little bit 32 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: about his background. He's followed by producer Gabriel Castillo. 33 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 5: I am East Asian. I am of Chinese descent, so 34 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 5: might be an issue, especially when I'm living in a 35 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 5: city that's like majority white. The beauty standards here are 36 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 5: also white. Here's the fact that I am neurodivergent. I 37 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 5: am like high functioning autistic. It might not show like 38 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 5: when I'm talking with people online, but when I'm in person, 39 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 5: I am a bit more socially awkward. 40 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 6: What was your experience like growing up? 41 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 5: I was pretty much socially isolated throughout my childhood, so 42 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 5: that doesn't really help either. If you're neurodivergent, obviously you're 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 5: going to have a lot more trouble getting along with 44 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 5: people socially, So that's a big factor and a lot 45 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 5: of insult I noticed are neurodivergent to certain degrees, maybe 46 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 5: not like enormously, but enough so that they act more 47 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,119 Speaker 5: socially awkward and they can sense that, and they might 48 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 5: feel a bit more uncomfortable, or they might think that 49 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 5: you're weird and not just play into your success. Neurodivergency 50 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,679 Speaker 5: is like, this is like a huge spectrum, but generally 51 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 5: patterns within neurodivergent people are more one way or the other. 52 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 5: They're less likely to be more compromising as a result, 53 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 5: be more easily radicalized. 54 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: Mysteries identifies as being black pilled, which in general is 55 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: defined as holding a nihilistic worldview. But here's his personal perspective. 56 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 5: There's a lot of different definitions on how people see 57 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 5: the black pill, with a lot of people with an 58 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 5: insult community to see it as in terms of like 59 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 5: dating context, if you don't have the looks, then you're finished. 60 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 5: Basically you don't stand a chance. I see the blackpill 61 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 5: more as like a spectrum. Basically, certain traits you have, 62 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 5: such as looks, you know, wealth, they make it more 63 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 5: likely for you to succeed within a certain context. I 64 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 5: think in the most part, black pill is more of 65 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 5: like understanding and acceptance that some aspects of yourself are 66 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 5: not able to be controlled by you, and these aspects 67 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 5: of yourself may influence your success, and that by no 68 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 5: means is any fault of your own. 69 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 6: Would you mind giving me the definition of a red 70 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 6: pill blue pill as well? 71 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 5: Well, I mean for red pill. Honestly, I'm I've never 72 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 5: been part of the like the so called red pill manosphere, 73 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 5: so I can't really tell you what exactly they believe 74 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 5: were what they think about. So what the blue pill 75 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 5: refers to is the idea that of meritocracy. You know, 76 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 5: if you improve yourself, you will succeed. There are some 77 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,799 Speaker 5: areas within the black pill community who are like misogynistic, 78 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 5: mostly out of anger and like frustration of their failures 79 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 5: and like things that can't control. It also is largely 80 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 5: motivated by, like the blue pill gas lighting that occurs 81 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 5: within society at large. You just got to work hard, 82 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 5: you just got to grind, You just got to like 83 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,679 Speaker 5: make money and like, you know, get bitches, so to speak. 84 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 5: Despite what popular consensus believes it does, really heavily depend 85 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 5: on your looks and your ability to basically socialize. I mean, 86 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 5: I am involuntarily celibate by the definition of the word, 87 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 5: but I'm not as bothered by it as some people 88 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 5: within the community are. 89 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: We asked mister East what he thought the information available 90 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: online and in the media has done to the term in. 91 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 5: Cell, society at large, and in popular media in general. 92 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 5: They've kind of twisted the term into like something that 93 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 5: refers to someone who is misogynistic. And I feel like 94 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 5: a lot of online like feminist types has furthered that 95 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 5: to like any man I disagree with, and I think 96 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 5: that in a long term is only going to play 97 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 5: into polarizing men from women, furthering the gender divide. Also, 98 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 5: I find it quite funny because in cell means involuntarily celibate, 99 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 5: which means you can't get sex, no bitches. So basically 100 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 5: you're insulting someone for their sexual value and sexual experience. 101 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 5: And for society that supposedly says, oh, you're not having sex, 102 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 5: you're not sexually successful, that that's fine. You know, you're 103 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 5: worrying about it too much. They very quickly used it 104 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 5: as an insult. 105 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: When mysteries talks about misconceptions. He's pointing to something deeper. 106 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: The term in cell has been distorted, often used as 107 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: a catch all insult. He sees this as widening the 108 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: divide between men and women in a world shape by 109 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations. 110 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 5: There are actually a lot of mixed misconceptions in general. 111 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 5: I think the popular media tends to lump together red pill, 112 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 5: black pill, and just in cells all into one like 113 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 5: group of in cells, which is basically just what they 114 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 5: believe are like misogynistic and green lonely men who can't 115 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 5: get a girlfriend will. While I think that's highly ingenuous, 116 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 5: and there is certain aspects such as social media does 117 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 5: cause like an unreal expectation in a way for a 118 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 5: potential romantic partners. So I think as this happens, more 119 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 5: and more men might find themselves embroiled within this space. 120 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 5: And I think society does need to do more to 121 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 5: address these types of issues. 122 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: We asked mister East if you thought some men fell 123 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: into in sell communities. 124 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 5: Society doesn't tell everyone just be nice, just be confident, 125 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 5: you will succeed if you do all that. Obviously, for 126 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 5: many people that might not work, so they might be confused, 127 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 5: They might be like, why isn't this working? That's when 128 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 5: they start searching online. 129 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: What a community is. 130 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 5: As marginalized as the black pills. I think it is 131 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 5: more difficult for a lot of to really take in 132 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 5: any outside messaging. 133 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 6: Have you found more good relationships or bad relationships within 134 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 6: the community When. 135 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 5: You don't have any real life relationships and you instead 136 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 5: spend all your times within these echo chambers that are 137 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 5: just born from people's pain and anger and frustration, it 138 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 5: does cause many people to become more and more radicalized, 139 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 5: and basically online is like a replacement for real life loneliness. 140 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 5: You will still feel lonely even if you are a 141 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 5: part of these communities. But there's also like some that 142 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 5: are like, you know, it's over. I just hate myself. 143 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 5: We all hate our self. Women are so materialistic they 144 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 5: always choose chads over nice guys like me. 145 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: Mysteries talks about what he sees as made up social 146 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: groups and what he calls the inceell versus normally conflict, 147 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: enormous slang for a normal, ordinary person who appears to 148 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: form romantic and sexual relationships easily. 149 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 5: There are studies that show that people will like human 150 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 5: beings in general, will automatically form groups. If they aren't 151 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 5: part of an already existing group, they will form artificial 152 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 5: groups to make themselves feel included. I think in a way, 153 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 5: what this current like in cell versus normy conflict is 154 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 5: is that artificial groups are forming, whether you are an 155 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 5: insult or whether you are a normy, And when these 156 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 5: types of groups form, people are more likely to see 157 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 5: outside groups as a monolis. Basically, I think that's what 158 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 5: contributes to like inceels seeing all normies as just bluepill brainwashed, 159 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 5: and like normally seeing in cells as all just misogynistic 160 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 5: terrors mass shooters. 161 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 6: Right. 162 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 5: And I've seen a lot of like in cell interviews 163 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 5: online because they are also anonymous online, they're more bold. 164 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 6: If I were female conducting this interview, or if I 165 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 6: was a female who was reaching out to all these people, 166 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 6: would the reciprocation be very different. 167 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 5: Gender would probably play a certain factor, even if a 168 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 5: lot of people wouldn't admit it, because subconsciously you're not 169 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 5: only part of the normal out group, You're also part 170 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 5: of the female, which is an how their group. So 171 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 5: I think people might be more wary if you are 172 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 5: female nor me. 173 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 6: What advice would you give to someone younger who is 174 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 6: beginning to feel isolated or turning towards these spaces. Any 175 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 6: advice that you'd like to. 176 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 5: Give, honestly, not really. I feel like it's kind of 177 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 5: inevitable for a lot of people to run into these 178 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 5: types of spaces, especially if they're socially isolated. In order 179 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 5: for young people to not fall into this rabbit hole 180 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 5: or like not to be as misogynistic as they may 181 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 5: turn out to be, I think it's more society to change. 182 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 5: And I do appreciate, like while you just like, you know, 183 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 5: trying to see the other side. I feel like a 184 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 5: lot of people they kind of DEMONI as a community 185 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 5: and like make it look bad and what it actually is, 186 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 5: especially for like a lot of men who already already 187 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 5: like see themselves like socially isolated, might feel more bad 188 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 5: about themselves. And I feel it's important to get this 189 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 5: side of the story as well. 190 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: M let's stop here for a break. We'll be back 191 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: in a moment. We'll continue sharing interviews with two other 192 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: self identifying in cells, but we wanted to step back 193 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: for a moment for a broader perspect We spoke with 194 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: doctor Lay, a clinical psychologist, sex therapist, and author of 195 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: multiple books doctor Lay fills us in on some current statistics. 196 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: I would say we have a fair bit of data 197 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 2: at this point about who the typical in cell is. 198 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 2: The majority of them look to be in their mid twenties, males, heterosexual, 199 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 2: typically childless. Of course, a majority of in cells in 200 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: the US and the United Kingdom are white, but a 201 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: substantial percentage of in cells, perhaps as many as forty percent, 202 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: identify as people of color. Research on in cells suggests 203 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: that there may be between forty and a few hundred 204 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 2: thousand kind of self identified in cells at any given time. 205 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 2: It looks like there's around twenty five thousand active and 206 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: participating in online in cell forums. 207 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: Based on loose math we did, which is consistent with 208 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: the report out from the UK government, approximately one point 209 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: six percent of men between the ages of eighteen and 210 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: thirty identify as in cells. That's between one and two 211 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: out of every one hundred men. In earlier episodes, we 212 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: talked about violent cases, the absolute worst outcomes. These events happened, 213 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: and the families of the victims are still living with 214 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: the repercussions. However, it's important to remember that violence in 215 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: in cell communities is extremely rare. Doctor Lay walks us 216 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: through some of the details. 217 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: When it comes to violence, though, it's really important to 218 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: understand that while the in cell community is perceived as 219 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: being extremely violent and their rhetoric is often violent and misogynistic, 220 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: it is relatively rare, actually quite rare, for inzels to 221 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: actually engage in violence. There have certainly been some horrific 222 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 2: tragedies with violent acts by insel individuals, but to date, 223 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 2: fewer than sixty people worldwide have died by inceell violence. 224 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 2: When you compare that to the violence related to terrorism, 225 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: to ideological divides over religion, over white supremacy, et cetera, 226 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 2: insel violence just doesn't measure up. 227 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: A lot of in cels are struggling. Rates of social 228 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: anxiety and depression are especially high, and many report dealing 229 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: with mental health challenges of all kinds. Doctor Lay breaks 230 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: it down with some statistics. 231 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 2: Like all complicated human behaviors, these issues intermingle and interact 232 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: in terms of cause and effect. It's important to know 233 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: that there are extremely high levels of mental health struggles 234 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: in the in cell community, very significant rates of depression 235 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: and autism. Around thirty five to forty percent of in 236 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: cells appear to have very serious depression. Around twenty to 237 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: forty percent may have autism or autistic symptoms. It's important 238 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 2: to note only around one percent of the general population 239 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: has autism, so this indicates a really significant kind of 240 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: predisposing factor that we Obviously autism would precede identifying as 241 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 2: an insel, but then as individuals with these mental health 242 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: conditions interact in these online communities, it starts to reinforce 243 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 2: some of these aspects and symptoms of mental health problems, 244 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 2: oftentimes exacerbating them. 245 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: We want to be absolutely clear, we are in no 246 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: way suggesting that having autism means someone is an insul. 247 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: What we're doing is sharing information pointing out signs that 248 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: may help identify when someone is at risk of struggling. 249 00:15:53,520 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: With more on that, here's doctor lay Zidal. 250 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: Ideation appears to be extremely common in the in cell community. 251 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: As much as eighty percent of in cells report thoughts 252 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: of suicide. It appears these mental vulnerabilities and struggles not 253 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: only precede their identification as an insul, but also impact 254 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: their success in dating their confidence, anxiety, social ability to 255 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 2: interact and seek out partners, et cetera. What's more interesting, though, 256 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: is that these vulnerabilities increase the risk of men becoming 257 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: more ideological in the in cell community. And as they 258 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: become more engaged in the in cell community, and they 259 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 2: may experience what it's called identity fusion, where they take 260 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: on the identity of this community as a significant part 261 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: of their own identity. As that occurs with these mental 262 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: predisposing vulnerabilities, they become more and more prone to engaging 263 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 2: in or espousing violence. So we see all of these 264 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 2: things interacting, feeding on each other in a dangerous kind 265 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: of feedback loop. 266 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: Doctor Lay says the pull of the in cell community 267 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: can become deeply personal, where loneliness and ideology blur outside 268 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: the data, those struggles sound different when you hear them firsthand. Sven, 269 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: a self identified inseel in his early forties, offers a 270 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: more introspective view. It's a completely different perspective than anything 271 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: we've previously encountered. He spoke with investigative journalist Connor Powell 272 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: about his relationship history with women. 273 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 4: As far as romantic relationships go, I have had several, 274 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 4: but they're very short lived. I was actually married in 275 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 4: twenty twenty for a whopping three days. We're together, I 276 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 4: guess for about a month. Got married, She disappeared after 277 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 4: day three, never saw her again, got annulled, never had 278 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 4: a divorce, And that was one of my longer relationships 279 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 4: that They've been very few and very fast, like they 280 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 4: appear and then disappear. 281 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 3: That's there common theme for how the relationships end. 282 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 4: I would say probably all different because someone else who 283 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 4: I briefly dated, I found out the entire time that 284 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 4: she was married. She was kind of leading me on, 285 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 4: and I didn't see through that because she had children 286 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 4: and I hung out with her and her children, and 287 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 4: it never crossed my mind that she literally coached her 288 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 4: children to lie to both her husband and to myself, 289 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 4: and it just baffled my mind. But when I confronted 290 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 4: her and after I found out she was married, she 291 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 4: admitted to it. There's a part of me that wants 292 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 4: to be understanding and say, well, you know, there's something 293 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 4: in her life, in her upbringing that led her to 294 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 4: think that that kind of behavior is okay. But on 295 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 4: the other hand, like, where does that leave me? 296 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: Explains what brought him into the black pill sphere? 297 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 4: This is where it gets frustrating. So I'm going to 298 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 4: kind of build myself up and then insult myself but 299 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 4: you know, I'm a six foot four, very athletic mail 300 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 4: I've had points in my life when I've made lots 301 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 4: of money. Objectively, I don't think I'm any kind of 302 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 4: good looking, but I've consistently heard from people like, oh, 303 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 4: you're so great looking genetically. I have literally never had 304 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 4: a health problem, so on paper, I should be the 305 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 4: perfect specimen. 306 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 7: And yet that has. 307 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 4: Brought me to a very solid acceptance of the fact 308 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 4: that I know I'm going to dialogue because now I've 309 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 4: gotten to the point of my life and this is 310 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 4: where I step into. I guess that sort of a 311 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 4: black pilled sphere is to say that I'm jaded enough 312 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 4: that seeing how things have gone in the past, that 313 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 4: I may even turn down opportunities if they presented themselves. 314 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 4: But I still call myself an insult because the opportunities 315 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 4: are not presenting themselves to turn down. 316 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 3: How would you just your lifestyle in terms of is 317 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 3: it severely online? 318 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 6: Is it a little bit online? 319 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 4: Not that much, It's very rarely online. I kind of 320 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 4: become kind of old man in that I've very much 321 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 4: in a rhythm. You know, I go to work, do 322 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 4: my time, come back, try to work out, eat, go 323 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 4: to sleep. As far as connecting with people, I always 324 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 4: kind of had. I don't know if it's the late 325 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 4: twentieth century mindset of like you go to a bar, 326 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 4: you could meet someone there, so on and so forth. 327 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: Ven reflects on what it actually means to identify as 328 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: an insul and whether or not he sees the label 329 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: itself as an insult. 330 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 4: I don't view it as derogatory, although this is probably 331 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 4: very hypocritical of me. But one sort of term I've 332 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 4: used even derogatorily myself is viewing someone as, say a 333 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 4: shut in, i e. You try to avoid the world 334 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 4: or don't get out, don't socialize. I would normally want 335 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 4: to encourage you go out, talk to people, so on 336 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 4: and so on. Then it ends up being kind of 337 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 4: hypocritical because I do try to do that a lot. 338 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 4: I try to be extremely social. I love social settings. 339 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 4: But you know, I had that mindset for a while 340 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 4: with bars, like I wanted to go talk to women, 341 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 4: see where things would go, but never actually had anything 342 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 4: turn into more than just a little conversation. You mentioned 343 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 4: about people living online is kind of killing it in 344 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 4: a different way because people who maybe once used to 345 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 4: go to bars to meet people are now strictly on tender. 346 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 4: That's why you end up going to bars. And there's 347 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 4: the three old guys in the corner. 348 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 3: One of the other recurring themes that you see. 349 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 6: And I actually think it seems to. 350 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 3: Be younger men, but there's a real anger and frustration 351 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 3: with women, frustration that maybe turns the anger. Talk to 352 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 3: a couple men who are sort of more in your age, 353 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 3: you know, late thirties, early forties. They talk about loneliness, 354 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 3: not anger, maybe frustration. 355 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 6: I would absolutely say a frustration. 356 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 4: And I have had feelings that you could call anger, 357 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 4: but don't I don't sit with some kind of simmering disdain. 358 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 3: Did you have this mentality in your teens in early 359 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 3: twenties or is this the belt. 360 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 4: The acceptance of basically like I'm going to dialan or 361 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 4: I'm going to be alone for forever, so on so 362 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 4: forth is more recent. You're constantly told that you know 363 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 4: you'll find the right you know things will work out, 364 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 4: you'll have your own family. But then when I've had 365 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 4: basically twenty years of actively trying to do that, and 366 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 4: I've had periods when I haven't and I've waited because 367 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 4: you know, supposedly. Everyone also tells you it's when you 368 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 4: stop looking that's when it will happen. First of all, 369 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 4: that's not how life works. If you want something, you 370 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 4: have to work for it. You can't just say I 371 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 4: want to be rich, let me sit back and wait 372 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 4: for it. I've done both, like, I've tried very hard. 373 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 4: I've done the dating sides. I've been social. I've worked 374 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 4: out to the point, you know, probably beyond the purview 375 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 4: of what you're wanting to touch on. But I you know, 376 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 4: I have six back, But I don't really feel that 377 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 4: it comes down to that. There's an aspect of luck, 378 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 4: like I almost feel like I'm cursed. 379 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 3: As I've been talking to people about what the frustrations are, 380 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 3: and you know, some of its heights, some of its baldness, 381 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 3: some of its social awkwardness. There are themes, but there's 382 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 3: also just this sort of feeling of hopelessness I guess 383 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 3: in one's own situation, and everyone has a different situation. 384 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 3: I mean, is that sort of. 385 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 6: Accurate baldness and so forth. 386 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 4: These don't resonate with me because they're not physical accuracies 387 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 4: in my case, but the sense of hopelessness, at least 388 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 4: as far as do I have any hope of anything 389 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 4: in a romantic or I guess you know the term 390 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 4: celibate relates specifically to the sexual connotations. 391 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 6: I have zero. 392 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 4: Hope for myself in either of those regards. So the 393 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 4: sense of hopelessness, I would say, is very accurate. And 394 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 4: so certainly when it comes to relationships and stuff, I 395 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 4: use the term blackpill because I see literally zero hope, 396 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 4: zero return on investment in any effort that goes into it. 397 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 4: What are my options in twenty twenty five. Option A, 398 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 4: try to go to a bar. Option B, try to 399 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 4: open up some dating sites, start doing a little swiping 400 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 4: or whatever. Or Option C just say screw it, you know, 401 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 4: instead of having any kind of hope for that which 402 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 4: you know, in a perfect world, I would love it. 403 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 7: Perfect world I would have. 404 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 4: Been married twenty years ago and stuck with it. But 405 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 4: you know, instead, I'm gonna come back from work, work out, 406 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 4: play guitar, and go to sleep and get ready to 407 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 4: go get exhausted at work again tomorrow. 408 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 409 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: a moment. We spoke with another self identified in cel 410 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: who wants to protect his identity. Per his request, he's 411 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: going by New Cold Squid and we're altering his voice. 412 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 7: I'm New Cold Squid. I'm based in Australia, came from 413 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 7: from a South Asian Muslim background. I've been identifying as 414 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 7: black pilled for maybe five years now, since I turned 415 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 7: twenty years old. I don't think I have any redeeming 416 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 7: qualities to offset the negative effects, like I'm not tall 417 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 7: enough to offset that but for race or personality or charm, 418 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 7: and I'm not facially attractive, and I'm not rich. It's 419 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 7: very hard for me to still hope for anything when 420 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 7: the social feedback that you get is still very, very 421 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 7: negative from the start. 422 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: New Cold Squid first encountered the term in cell as 423 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: a teenager, a common experience with many people we've spoken with. 424 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: He highlights how the isolation of the pandemic contributed to 425 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: where he is now. 426 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 7: I always kind of knew what in cell meant basically, 427 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 7: and so I've known that since I was fourteen fifteen 428 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 7: years old. I didn't really actively pick part in any 429 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 7: online communities until maybe twenty twenty around cod when I 430 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 7: was more stuck at home than usual and more online 431 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 7: and trying to find spaces where I felt like more 432 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 7: people could actually connect with my actual experiences. I've usually 433 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 7: been a shorthand displaying radio game into watching movies and stuff. 434 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 7: But at one point it does get old and you 435 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 7: start wanting some of that social connection. But you know 436 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 7: that inability to get it is how I became intel identified. 437 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: He describes growing up in a household that highly valued 438 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: academic excellence. That pressure, combined with feelings of isolation, shaped 439 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: much of how he sees himself today. 440 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 7: Parental expectations are like super super high, and I'm okay academically, 441 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 7: but I'm not special. So that mounted a lot of pressure, 442 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 7: and there was a huge feeling of making a parents 443 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 7: feel disappointed. So that that just added a lot to 444 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 7: the worthlessness of it all. And yeah, it killed myself 445 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 7: with even in terms of connecting to my parents, to 446 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 7: family back home all that. But yeah, loneliness has definitely 447 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 7: been a part of it. Loneliness part is a huge, 448 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 7: huge thing or social animals right still need some kind 449 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 7: of connection. How does it feel if you could just 450 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 7: drop dead any minute and nobody will even notice. That's 451 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 7: the just how I really followed at my worst point 452 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 7: of life. 453 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 6: Do you think five years ago you would have done 454 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 6: an interview like this. 455 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 7: Back then, I wouldn't have been able to because I 456 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 7: wasn't really aware of what is making me feel so dead, 457 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 7: so miserable, Like why am I always feeling down? I 458 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 7: was also in denial of why I feel that way 459 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 7: because you know, initially I did not want to identify 460 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 7: as insult because obviously because of the negative connotations the 461 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 7: label carries. So when I was in school and a 462 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 7: lot of bullying happened, a lot of the bullying came 463 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 7: from the girls as well, So to me it didn't 464 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 7: really I didn't really have to ask them out to 465 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 7: gauge if they liked me. They already made it clear 466 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 7: how they see me, So for me, it kind of 467 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 7: closed me on off into opening up a very very 468 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 7: long time to anybody in general. 469 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 6: Do you feel like a lot of these communities. Is 470 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 6: it a lot more positive than negative or is it 471 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 6: a lot more negative than positive? 472 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 7: To be frank, it is probably negative. It is ever 473 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 7: all miserable anyway, So it's negative, but it's our truth. Basically, 474 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 7: I get a realistic but negative perspective than a toxic 475 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 7: positive one just too. But that just makes me feel 476 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 7: more miserable and not focus on other things. 477 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 6: Essentially, do you think you would have viewed these groups 478 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 6: differently when you were twenty years old than how you 479 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 6: view it now. 480 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 7: At twenty years old. I still hold on to those 481 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 7: biases that you insult, probably violent, being misogynistic, or wanting 482 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 7: to hurt people, kill them and shoot people up, stuff 483 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 7: like that. So that is how I viewed the community 484 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 7: at the time, as an actual ideology, so to speak. 485 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 7: But now I don't think it's an ideology. It's just 486 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 7: a state of being when you feel fundamentally inherently undesirable 487 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 7: and you're kind of screwed. No matter what you do, 488 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 7: you're going to be alone. 489 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 6: How do you define it in cel It just. 490 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 7: Means that you're inherently unable to attract a partner like 491 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 7: you want one, but you are literally inherently unable to 492 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 7: attract any partner no matter what you do, for both 493 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 7: sex and both relationships. And I think that is the 494 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 7: most fundamental definition of insul literally involuntarily celibate. I don't 495 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 7: think having an ideology or having a certain hate has 496 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 7: something to do with it. It's just a fundamental feeling 497 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 7: of being undesirable to anybody. Someone like me, who's just 498 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 7: trying to lead an honest life. I just think I 499 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 7: I deserve maybe in a shot, just one shot at 500 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 7: the market. I don't think I've actively been looking for 501 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 7: a very very long time, or probably ever. But it 502 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 7: also starts up in smaller, subtle passive aggressive behavior. 503 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: We ask for an example of the subtle passive behaviors handcounters. 504 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 7: When I say good morning to some of my coworkers, 505 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 7: they just ignore me. They would just act like I'm 506 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 7: not even there. Or when I do something do some 507 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 7: kind of favor for them, they don't say thank you again, 508 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 7: not just they won't even acknowledge me. Or when I 509 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 7: ask a work related question, they'll give an answer to 510 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 7: somebody else in my proximity and expect me to gauge 511 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 7: from what they're saying to them. 512 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 6: What are some big misconceptions people have had about the 513 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 6: insul community. 514 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 7: The main big thing is that we are all just 515 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 7: only miserable because we want the top most attractive women 516 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 7: as partners. Most of us are very happy with just average. 517 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 7: We just want to be in a relationship where we 518 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 7: actually feel loved and appreciated. But the thing is just 519 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 7: because we are ready to date a so called fire 520 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 7: out of ten doesn't mean they want to date a 521 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 7: fire out of ten guy. That's something a lot of 522 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 7: people need to think about. 523 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 6: Do you have a piece of advice for younger people 524 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 6: who are starting to feel very isolated and lonely and 525 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 6: starting to look towards these forums. 526 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 7: One big advice I would give them is to spend 527 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 7: as less time as you can on social media. In 528 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 7: my opinion, social media is the worst non violent invention 529 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 7: made by humanity. Everything I said here, it's based on 530 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 7: my experiences. I hope it can be of some use, 531 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 7: and I hope maybe the conversations will change and people 532 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 7: will start to interact with us in a different rate. 533 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: We've heard from men who often feel unheard, stories marked 534 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: by loneliness, rejection, and the need to belong. We've learned 535 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: that empathy matters, compassion matters, and that real understanding cannot 536 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: come from a place of judgment, but from listening. In 537 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: the episodes ahead, we'll go deeper into the broader worlds 538 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: of the manosphere, trolling culture, and a few corners we 539 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: hadn't even heard of. We'll also continue hearing from more 540 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: self identified insuls, sharing their experiences in their own words. 541 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow 542 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at kt Underscore Studios. In Cells is 543 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. 544 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by 545 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: Jeff Toois, Music by Vanicourt Studios. In sells us a 546 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: production of Kat's Studios and iHeart Radio. For more podcasts 547 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 548 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.