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Speaker 1: This is Unbreakable with Jay Glacier, a mental wealth podcast

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Speaker 1: build you from the inside out. Now here's Jay Glacier.

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Speaker 2: Welcome into Unbreakable, a mental wealth podcast with Jay Glazer.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jay Glazer, and before I get to today's guest

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Speaker 2: who he's really helped us in a lot.

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Speaker 3: He's a doctor, former.

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Speaker 2: Combat veteran, and he's helped us an awful lot kind

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Speaker 2: of navigate what were called a mental health podcast now

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Speaker 2: we're called the mental Wealth Podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm really excited to dive in with him.

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Speaker 2: But if you're like many people, you may be surprised

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Speaker 2: to learn that one in five adults in this country

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Speaker 2: experienced mental illness last year. Get far too many failed

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Speaker 2: to receive the support they need. Carolin Behavioral Health is

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Speaker 2: doing something about it. They understand that behavioral health is

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Speaker 2: a key part of whole health, delivering compassionate care to

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Speaker 2: treat physical, mental, emotional, and social needs in tandem. Carolin

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Speaker 2: behavioral health raising the quality of life through empathy and action. Well,

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Speaker 2: it's ironic that we have our talking about Carolyn, who

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Speaker 2: does such great work with so many different groups of people,

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Speaker 2: and with that we have in the chief Medical.

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Speaker 3: Officer with Carolyn, the One and Only doctor, Jim Paolo.

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Speaker 4: How are you, Jim, I'm doing well. Thanks Jay.

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Speaker 2: Hey, you are only our second returning guests. Now I

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Speaker 2: want to put a lot of pressure on you. The

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Speaker 2: first returning guests was Sean McVay, head coach the Rams,

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Speaker 2: and you know he's won a Super Bowl.

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Speaker 3: So I'm not trying to put a lot of pressure

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Speaker 3: on you, Okay, I hope.

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Speaker 4: I'm as excited now.

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Speaker 2: You're great, and so here's what I do want to go,

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Speaker 2: you know, And we had such a great talk the

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Speaker 2: last time. And like I just said in the intro,

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Speaker 2: when we first did this, Mike, when I first wrote

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Speaker 2: my book I'm Breakable, when am I started this podcast,

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Speaker 2: one of the big reasons is to give mental health

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Speaker 2: words so we could start having the conversation more so

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Speaker 2: we could lift each other and not just lift each

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Speaker 2: other out of a dark hole, but.

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Speaker 3: Empower each other.

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Speaker 2: And then as time went on, I said, man, people

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Speaker 2: are still holding on to it like it's a negative stigma.

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Speaker 2: And talking mental health for me is not a negative stigma.

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Speaker 2: There's so much for me. If I build my mental

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Speaker 2: health leads to mental health, mental wealth leads to success,

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Speaker 2: physical health.

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Speaker 3: For me so many different things.

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Speaker 2: So I almost made the switch because people still have

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Speaker 2: this negative stigma. So I want to just bring you

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Speaker 2: in this conversation and see what your thoughts are on that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's great. You know. One of the

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Speaker 4: things that I think is so important, Jay, is how

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Speaker 4: we talk about this topic relates a lot to what

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Speaker 4: we think internally, and we have to kind of take

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Speaker 4: those internal constructs that people have and begin to change them.

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Speaker 4: You know. The way I look at it is we

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Speaker 4: are emotional creatures. That's what we do. We think, and

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Speaker 4: we feel all the time. And so you know, your

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Speaker 4: phrase in terms of thinking about it in terms of

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Speaker 4: mental wealth, speaks to the idea that we have a

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Speaker 4: quote condition at every moment. And what I strive for

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Speaker 4: is just emotional wealth being without even thinking about quote

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Speaker 4: mental health, just emotional well being.

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Speaker 2: Look, I guess maybe when I started doing all this,

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Speaker 2: I was hoping that, Okay, I could help everybody just

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Speaker 2: change the way they view it.

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Speaker 3: Overnight. It's gonna change.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I realized that the battle is a

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Speaker 2: little bit you know more, Bill. But I still think

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Speaker 2: when people look at it and we say mental health,

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Speaker 2: they just automatically think depression, anxiety.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's just not the case.

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Speaker 4: That's not the case, right, No, no, no, you're you're

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Speaker 4: absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: And mental health could be for me. I could be

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Speaker 2: a star athlete and I'm trying to get myself better.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to open things up so I could win

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Speaker 2: that championship or win that title belt. And you know,

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Speaker 2: we used to call them what are we call them

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Speaker 2: back to then when I was fighting a guy, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: mental performance coaches. But that's still part of mental health, right,

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Speaker 2: It's all still part of it. It's so just because

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Speaker 2: we're talking about mental health, folks, doesn't mean that it's

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Speaker 2: all about.

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Speaker 3: And dooming glum.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, me you know, dealing with doctors

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Speaker 2: like yourself and other therapists that I've had, and all

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Speaker 2: the things that I've done, Yes, I have had to

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Speaker 2: get all that a really dark places, but that's still

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Speaker 2: for a journey to get me into a mentally wealthier place,

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Speaker 2: if you will.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And the other thing that's important to remember is

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Speaker 4: that all of us, all of us are on a

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Speaker 4: journey that has highs and lows all of us. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: So you can end up in a great place and

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Speaker 4: still run into a problem, right, You can run into

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Speaker 4: a problem and still ultimately find yourself in a great place.

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Speaker 4: It's a journey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think life is about how you deal

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Speaker 2: with highs and lows, and you know you're still even

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Speaker 2: when you're the highest to high and still dealing with

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Speaker 2: your mental health. How do you deal with this? How

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Speaker 2: do you not compare yourself for just fear that all

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Speaker 2: a sudden, the Rugs scene, you pull that from under you.

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Speaker 2: I still think we have ways to go. But that's

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Speaker 2: just why I wanted to change. That's just mental wealth.

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Speaker 2: I just think it's a more empowering thing. But I

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Speaker 2: want people to understand when we are talking about your

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Speaker 2: mental health doesn't mean we're not talking about empowering you.

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Speaker 2: We're always talking about empowering you. So it's a timely conversation.

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Speaker 2: Also because this week is National Drug and Alcohol Facts Week. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So I love that I have you on because I

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Speaker 2: do a lot of friends, a lot of people like

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Speaker 2: a lot of people call me that I do just

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Speaker 2: try and help between the years behind the roob cage.

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Speaker 2: As I say, but I'm not a therapist, I'm not

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Speaker 2: a counselor.

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Speaker 3: So when I know.

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Speaker 2: Somebody's dealing with drug or or addiction or alcohol or

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Speaker 2: opioids or I had an opioid deal for years on

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Speaker 2: Viking and General for years, and that was before there

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Speaker 2: was an opioid crisis.

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Speaker 3: We didn't know back then.

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Speaker 2: But when I was playing a sport of pain, they're

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Speaker 2: giving you a rking, Well, it's a painkiller, will help shoot?

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Speaker 3: Sign me up? Right. We didn't understand it back then.

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Speaker 2: But what is the best way for me to handle

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Speaker 2: when I have a friend who's going through that end

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Speaker 2: of it, to to basically steer the right direction.

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Speaker 4: So so you know the first thing I'll tell you, Jay,

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Speaker 4: I take this conversation very very personal. When I was

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Speaker 4: a young dad, I had a daughter in her teens

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Speaker 4: that went through a two year journey of severe drug

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Speaker 4: use that fanthato me. I think one of the things

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Speaker 4: that I learned during that horrible journey is I felt ashamed.

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Speaker 4: I felt defective, and I felt alone, and I didn't

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Speaker 4: feel like I could even share what I was struggling

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Speaker 4: with because I was so ashamed. So when people come

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Speaker 4: to me and they ask me, or they even just

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Speaker 4: hint at the fact that maybe they're having a problem,

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Speaker 4: or they have a friend that's having a problem, or

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Speaker 4: they have a family member. I'm always ready to make

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Speaker 4: sure that I'm very careful to say hey, you're not alone.

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Speaker 4: I'm very very careful not to be judgmental. I'm very

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Speaker 4: careful to use my words very carefully to say, hey, listen,

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Speaker 4: this is a disease. A lot of people suffer from this.

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Speaker 4: You're not alone. There are things that can help you.

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Speaker 4: Because that struggle of being so kind of stigmatized that

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Speaker 4: you've done something wrong, or that you've misbehaved, or that

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Speaker 4: you didn't raise your kid, well, that's very real. It's

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Speaker 4: very real today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what are some of are you saying now? And

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Speaker 2: the growth and the treatment side.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So one of the things that is kind of

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Speaker 4: fortunate and unfortunate. The pandemic created tremendous amount of stress,

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Speaker 4: which has resulted in a higher prevalence of all kinds

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Speaker 4: of things. It's also resulted in the fact that we're

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Speaker 4: able to talk about it. But what we're seeing on

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Speaker 4: the treatment side, First of all, prevalence and use of

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Speaker 4: alcohol and drugs continues to rise. The demand for people

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Speaker 4: wanting to get help. Is there the ability for us

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Speaker 4: to talk about it has improved. So treatment strategies is improving.

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Speaker 4: The ability to get folks in and how we're going

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Speaker 4: to help them is improving, and we can talk about

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Speaker 4: some of what that looks like. But one of the

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Speaker 4: biggest challenges that we're still having is it's very hard

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Speaker 4: to find services. The demand is so high that finding

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Speaker 4: you know, where you can get access to get good

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Speaker 4: treatment is unfortunately, really hard. Today in the United States,

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Speaker 4: forty million Americans over the age of twelve are experiencing

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Speaker 4: an active substance use disorder. Forty million. That's a lot

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Speaker 4: of people.

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Speaker 2: Went through with a very close family member, and you're right,

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Speaker 2: it's hard to find a place. And it was interesting

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Speaker 2: because my family when first I'm talking about, had a

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Speaker 2: suicide attempt, but we couldn't find a facility because he

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Speaker 2: didn't have a substance abuse issue.

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Speaker 3: That part kind of blew my mind.

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Speaker 4: Yep, And let me tell you what you're kind of

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Speaker 4: referring to. We had this. We went through a period

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Speaker 4: of years where he had kind of a mentality of

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Speaker 4: one size fits all, Hey, you have a drug problem,

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Speaker 4: you need to go to a twenty eight day program.

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Speaker 4: That's what you need. And in today's world, it's not

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Speaker 4: like that. In today's world. We try to take a

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Speaker 4: very individualized approach. What do people actually need that's going

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Speaker 4: to be meaningful for them, and how can we emphasize

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Speaker 4: recovery of their whole life. It's not about abstinence, it's

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Speaker 4: about how can you live a better life right all

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Speaker 4: the other things that relate to relationships, having a job,

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Speaker 4: having a house. How do you change the way that

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Speaker 4: you're living in such a way that you don't have

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Speaker 4: to turn to drugs and alcohol to feel something.

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Speaker 2: Besides traditional rehab, what is there for people who are

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Speaker 2: struggling with drugs and alcohol.

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Speaker 3: They're struggling to be clean, but we can't get them

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Speaker 3: in place like that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so, first of all, there's a ton of stuff

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Speaker 4: that's happened on the technology side. A lot of companies

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Speaker 4: are developing applications that you can use either on a

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Speaker 4: mobile phone or on a computer to first of all,

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Speaker 4: have a way of being engaged in treatment that's continuous

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Speaker 4: over time from anywhere you are. You know, obviously this

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Speaker 4: is going to help folks that have more of the

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Speaker 4: mild challenges than more of the severe challenges. We've also

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Speaker 4: started to use telehealth. We used to believe that all

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Speaker 4: treatment had to be on site in a facility at

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Speaker 4: a location. Well, we've come to realize that we can

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Speaker 4: create programs that use telehealth, that use virtual care, that

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Speaker 4: have group meetings. Another area where we've expanded is the

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Speaker 4: use of what's called medication assistant therapies. It used to

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Speaker 4: be that we thought, hey, look, somebody has a drug problem.

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Speaker 4: The first thing we have to do is we have

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Speaker 4: to detox them, and we've got to get them off everything.

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Speaker 4: We've got to make them miserable. We got to keep

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Speaker 4: them miserable long enough to their past their misery. And

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Speaker 4: we've come to realize, hey, that doesn't work so well.

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Speaker 4: That doesn't work so well. So we have medications that

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Speaker 4: we can help people feel better so that they can

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Speaker 4: actually follow through them committing to their treatment and it's

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Speaker 4: actually saving lives to boom. Okay. The other thing that's

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Speaker 4: important is involving how we approach people, and this relates

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Speaker 4: a little bit about what we talked about in terms

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Speaker 4: of stigma. The use of peer support, individuals people that

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Speaker 4: have that lived experience, that have been there themselves, that

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Speaker 4: can offer that practical encouragement, that support in a non

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Speaker 4: judgmental manner.

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Speaker 3: How does someone find it? Do you go through Caroline

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Speaker 3: to find that?

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Speaker 4: So, Caroline, we have a lot of programs where that's

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Speaker 4: just part of what we do. We contract with providers

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Speaker 4: where peer support is included, and we actually pay for that.

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Speaker 4: In other words, we reimburse to make sure that it's

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Speaker 4: act we covered. But peer support individuals think of a

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Speaker 4: coach on steroids that is like your AA supervisor that

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Speaker 4: goes with you everywhere, does everything. They're available on the phone,

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Speaker 4: they're available by text. They help you in those moments

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Speaker 4: when when you don't know what to do. Now. They're

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Speaker 4: not providing treatment per se, they're not providing counseling, but

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Speaker 4: they do have the training to know how to help

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Speaker 4: coach somebody through and keep them engaged in their in

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Speaker 4: their own recovery so that they will stay with treatment,

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Speaker 4: so that they will, you know, follow the recommendations by

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Speaker 4: the treatment plan.

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Speaker 2: Are those peer specialists? Are those people they train it up?

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Speaker 2: But have they also been through it or.

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Speaker 4: Is it just peer specialists are individuals that have that

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Speaker 4: lived experience. They themselves, they themselves had a problem, They've

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Speaker 4: been there and they've recovered. Wow, and so they're now

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Speaker 4: able to use their personal experience in a way that's

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Speaker 4: really positive to help folks. Number one, recognize I'm not alone,

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Speaker 4: and look, recovery does happen. Here's my pure recovery coach.

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Speaker 4: Who Hey, he was out just like I was, right

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Speaker 4: and yet look where he is today. Look where she

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Speaker 4: is today. They're helping me. I can get there too.

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Speaker 2: Literally, somebody who's walked this walk also, you walk this

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Speaker 2: walk together.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And those kinds of individuals are far less judgmental

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Speaker 4: and far more empathetic because they know exactly what it

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Speaker 4: means to have a problem and not be able to

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Speaker 4: get out of it.

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Speaker 2: And at the same time, it lifts them up because

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Speaker 2: it allows them to be of service, which is one

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Speaker 2: of the things that helps all.

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Speaker 4: Of us, right right, Oh my gosh, I love yes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I love what you said. Also about

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Speaker 2: not just getting somebody off. They always talk to people

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Speaker 2: about building mind, body, spirit. So yeah, we may, you

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Speaker 2: may get detox somewhere, but yeah, when you do have issues,

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Speaker 2: there's so much, so many other things that have taken

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Speaker 2: a hit in your life, and now we kind of

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Speaker 2: need you to not just recover from that, but we

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Speaker 2: can broke so many areas of your life or think

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Speaker 2: you'd be less apt to fall back down or fall

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Speaker 2: off the wagon. Build a new mind, body, spirit.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And you know, I remember as a young doc,

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Speaker 4: we would have people that would come in that were

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Speaker 4: struggling with an alcohol problem or with a drug problem,

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Speaker 4: and we spent all our time focused on this drug

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Speaker 4: is harming you. You need to change your behavior. We're

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Speaker 4: going to keep you off at in this program, we're

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Speaker 4: going to focus on basically getting you to quit without

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Speaker 4: thinking about wait a second, their whole life has been impacted.

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Speaker 4: They lost their job, maybe they're not living where they

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Speaker 4: should be living, they've lost their friends, they don't have

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Speaker 4: skills that they really need to cope with difficulties. So

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Speaker 4: our approaches now is about how do you recover somebody's

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Speaker 4: whole life. So, if I have somebody that's struggling with

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Speaker 4: an addiction type problem where it's led them to lose

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Speaker 4: their job, how do we help them build back the courage,

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Speaker 4: the skills to find a new job. How do we

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Speaker 4: help them to make sure they're living in the right

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Speaker 4: part of town where they don't have to be unsafe.

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Speaker 4: How do we help their whole life change, not just

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Speaker 4: this focused desire to get them to stop using whatever

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Speaker 4: it is that got them to where they are.

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Speaker 2: I constantly try and get people how to help. I

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Speaker 2: have helped a lot of people steer them. We're getting

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Speaker 2: that help, and I'm always trying to tell them to

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Speaker 2: get excited about it.

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Speaker 3: Like change.

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Speaker 2: People are afraid to change, but change could be great

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Speaker 2: change what leads the success. Right, So man, just thinking

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Speaker 2: about how great you're gonna feel when you come through

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Speaker 2: the other side of this tunnel, when you don't have

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Speaker 2: to deal with this pain anymore. How much this will

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Speaker 2: open your life up again. People are afraid of the unknown,

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Speaker 2: but give them just a sense of how great, Like

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Speaker 2: there could be so many great things laying that unknown.

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Speaker 4: Here's the other thing that's so important about what you're saying.

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Speaker 4: You know, people don't like to change, right unless they're

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Speaker 4: in control of it. Then they love change. So one

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Speaker 4: of the things that's important also as you're helping folks

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Speaker 4: through this journey is got you gotta figure out what

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Speaker 4: do they want? What are their needs? Rather than us

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Speaker 4: just telling him you need to do X, Y and

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Speaker 4: Z and then your life is going to be good. Hey,

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Speaker 4: what do you want to achieve? With your life. What

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Speaker 4: do you want to do, what kind of a job

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Speaker 4: do you want to have? Kind of relationships would you

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Speaker 4: like to have. I can help you get there, but

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Speaker 4: if you're part of making those decisions, you're more likely

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Speaker 4: going to be committed to your treatment.

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Speaker 2: And I think you know a lot of us we say, well,

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Speaker 2: this person has to hit rock bottom before they get help.

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Speaker 3: Folks, you're you don't have to hit rock bottom before

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Speaker 3: you get help.

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Speaker 2: You could sit there now and say, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I want to start improving, and I have to make

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Speaker 2: that decision. But ultimately it's on you. You have to

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Speaker 2: make that choice. You have to make that decision to

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Speaker 2: take better control of your life. To say, and it's

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Speaker 2: about always improved just because like look, Tom Brady kept

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Speaker 2: winning super Bowl after super Bowl, but every off season

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Speaker 2: he tried to figure out something else to do to improve,

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Speaker 2: to make himself better. So we don't have to be

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Speaker 2: at the bottom to get to go to the top.

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Speaker 2: We can still be pretty high up and still improve.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I absolutely agree with that.

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Speaker 2: Give me anything else you could add about what Carolyn's

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Speaker 2: doing nowadays just to help these issues that we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: I know it's just we're talking about, you know, the

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Speaker 2: recovery side of it, but kind of give us a

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Speaker 2: broader spectrum of since the last time we've talked some

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Speaker 2: of the things that.

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Speaker 3: Carolyn has edited or doing differently.

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Speaker 4: So I'll tell you one of the things that we're

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Speaker 4: doing differently that's very technical, and then they'll tell you

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Speaker 4: something that we're doing from a community perspective. You know,

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Speaker 4: one of the biggest challenges to help people with any

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Speaker 4: kind of problem is identifying it really early. Okay, So

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Speaker 4: we talk a lot about how do we use technology,

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Speaker 4: and we talk a lot about AI driven technology in

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Speaker 4: terms of how we're using that. We're using analytics to

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Speaker 4: look at all of the massive amounts of claims data

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Speaker 4: we have to essentially target and find people that our

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Speaker 4: projective analytics is telling us these are the folks that

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Speaker 4: are going to have a problem in the future. So

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Speaker 4: rather than waiting for them to fall, rather than for

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Speaker 4: waiting to them to show up that critical moment in

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Speaker 4: the emergency room, can we find people before that, reach

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Speaker 4: out to them and kind of get them engaged, kind

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Speaker 4: of like you were saying, you don't have to hit

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Speaker 4: rock bottom. So that's one of the things that we're doing,

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Speaker 4: and we're putting a tremendous amount of resource into the

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Speaker 4: technology so that we can actually manage populations at Barge. Now,

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Speaker 4: the other thing that I'm really excited about, and this

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Speaker 4: goes back to my own personal story, we support a

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Speaker 4: lot of nonprofit companies. One of those is Shatterproof. So

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Speaker 4: Shatterproof is organization that's been around for over ten years now,

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Speaker 4: started by Gary Mendell. Gary Mendell, much like myself, had

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Speaker 4: a child that went through a serious drug problem and

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Speaker 4: unfortunately his child didn't make it. His child did not survive,

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Speaker 4: and one of the reasons that he struggled was because

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Speaker 4: there were so many barriers to getting care, there was

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Speaker 4: so much stigma. And so Shatterproof is about, first of all,

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Speaker 4: let's have that discussion in a positive way. Let's talk

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Speaker 4: about what good recovery looks like, and let's figure out

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Speaker 4: how we can help people get to the right place.

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Speaker 4: So at Carolin, we've committed thirty million dollars in support

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Speaker 4: to all kinds of organizations of what Shatterproof is just

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Speaker 4: one kind of putting our money where our mouth is

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Speaker 4: in terms of saying we don't believe that having a

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Speaker 4: mental health or substance you use problems assigned being of defect.

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Speaker 4: It's okay to ask for help. And by the way,

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Speaker 4: if you ask for help, you have a bright light

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Speaker 4: at the end of your road. You can recover.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and not only then. I think it makes you stronger.

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Speaker 2: It does absolutely, Doctor Jim Bolo, Man, I appreciate it

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Speaker 2: so much. We can't go this long without talking because

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Speaker 2: every time I talk to you learn something. I think

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Speaker 2: our listeners definitely learn something and I just like talking

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Speaker 2: to you.

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Speaker 4: Hey, thanks a lot, Jay, I love being on your show.

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Speaker 3: Appreciate it. Doctor Jim Bolo, Chief medical Officer with

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Speaker 2: Carolyn Behavioral Health, Thank you for joining us brother The

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Speaker 2: Unbreakable Mental Wealth Podcast