Speaker 1: I'm Stephen Caroll of the Bloomberg New Economy Gateway Europe
Speaker 1: event at the Powers Court of State just south of
Speaker 1: Dublin in Ireland. We've been here for the past few
Speaker 1: days having some really interesting conversations about the big issues
Speaker 1: facing the continent of Europe, and we want to bring
Speaker 1: you some highlights from those interviews in this special podcast.
Speaker 1: Let's start with one of the most important people in
Speaker 1: Europe when it comes to tech regulation. Helen Dixon is
Speaker 1: Ireland's Data Protection Commissioner. She's the point person when it
Speaker 1: comes to enforcing the EU's data rules.
Speaker 2: For the big US tech companies.
Speaker 1: You have an absolutely massive job in enforcing the gold
Speaker 1: standard of Global Data Protection Rules GDPR.
Speaker 2: The e rules in.
Speaker 1: This area give us an idea of the scale of
Speaker 1: the work that your office does in terms of monitoring
Speaker 1: these big names in tech.
Speaker 3: Well, the scale of the job is vast. Exactly as
Speaker 3: you said, the form of one stop shop that was
Speaker 3: set up under the GDPR means that the regulator in
Speaker 3: the country in which a company's main established is the
Speaker 3: lead regulator for Europe. I suppose because we're English speaking
Speaker 3: in Ireland, we have a young workforce and Ireland attracts
Speaker 3: many of these companies. We have by default at the
Speaker 3: Irish Data Protection Commission ended up with the line's share
Speaker 3: of responsibility and work under the GDPR. You named out
Speaker 3: some of the big companies that are located here, but
Speaker 3: also smaller platforms are located here like Dropbox, Salesforce that
Speaker 3: are less spoken about. So on a daily basis, the
Speaker 3: role of the Irish Data Protection Commission is both to
Speaker 3: handle complaints from individuals, often about these platforms that you mentioned,
Speaker 3: but also to look at the more systemic issues, to
Speaker 3: look at breaches notified by the platforms themselves to us,
Speaker 3: but also to look at media reporting, academic reporting, issues
Speaker 3: that come to light through other regulators that may need investigation.
Speaker 3: So at this point in time we have over twenty
Speaker 3: large scale investigations ongoing into various aspects of the different platforms.
Speaker 3: We're looking at issues like data protection by design and
Speaker 3: default in terms of how the platforms are engineered. We're
Speaker 3: looking at very technical issues like legal basis that's been used.
Speaker 3: We're looking at whether it's transparency to users. I should
Speaker 3: say the GDPR is now coming up to five years
Speaker 3: in application. Last year was the biggest year for enforcement
Speaker 3: of the GDPR to date probably not a surprise as
Speaker 3: some of the large scale investigations come to conclusion of
Speaker 3: that record year for enforcement. Last year, two thirds of
Speaker 3: the enforcement was delivered by the Irish Data Protection Commission.
Speaker 3: Across the EU, UK and EA over a billion in
Speaker 3: fines levied, So that gives you some idea of the scale.
Speaker 3: And of course it's not all about enforcement either.
Speaker 2: Is your office a match for some of the richest
Speaker 2: companies in the world.
Speaker 3: We are a match for the rich companies in the world,
Speaker 3: and we've demonstrated that through key cases that have already
Speaker 3: been concluded and through litigation that has already happened. You'll
Speaker 3: recall that my office in twenty sixteen, on foot of
Speaker 3: a long standing complaint about this issue of EU to
Speaker 3: USA transfers of personal data, made an application to the
Speaker 3: High Court seeking a reference to the CJU, which we
Speaker 3: obtained in order to have the CJU rule on the
Speaker 3: validity of the legal instrument that was being used. And
Speaker 3: all along the way we saw Facebook challenge the DPC
Speaker 3: right up to the Supreme Court on that and we succeeded.
Speaker 4: So we are a match.
Speaker 3: Of course, it's a never ending battle.
Speaker 2: And the scale is vasts.
Speaker 1: In the past though about the resources that your office
Speaker 1: has to be able to do that is that issue
Speaker 1: being addressed.
Speaker 3: The issue is being addressed a year on year. The
Speaker 3: government has granted us more budget, so the issue is
Speaker 3: necessarily a commitment to budget. It is around absorbtive capacity
Speaker 3: when you're increasing the size of a very niche specialist
Speaker 3: organization like the Data Protection Commission, and it can be
Speaker 3: around the availability of resources. So we've found innovative ways
Speaker 3: as the years go by. As well as expanding our
Speaker 3: staff now to over two hundred experts that we have
Speaker 3: directly employed, we've also put in place contracts for services
Speaker 3: so that we can draw down in particular state of
Speaker 3: the art technology and forensic services as required in investigations.
Speaker 3: And that's sensible because it means we're always up to date.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about some of the investigations
Speaker 1: that you've been working on TikTok's processing of children's personal data.
Speaker 1: Has there any progress made agreeing with other EU member
Speaker 1: states on a penalty for that.
Speaker 3: No, there hasn't, but I suppose we've come to a
Speaker 3: point of certainty that we cannot reach agreement with the
Speaker 3: two and there were only two data protection authorities that
Speaker 3: objected to elements of our decision on that, a German
Speaker 3: authority and the Italian authority. We spent several months trying
Speaker 3: to reach a point of agreement and consensus with them.
Speaker 3: We have not achieved that, so we have now invited
Speaker 3: TikTok to make its submissions on the objection so that
Speaker 3: we can transfer the file to this dispute resolution mechanism
Speaker 3: under the GDP or so we'll have a final conclusion
Speaker 3: on that in a short number of months.
Speaker 1: That was Helen Dixon, Ireland's Data Protection Commissioner. So from
Speaker 1: regulating tech to funding it. Elaine Cochlan is the co
Speaker 1: founder and managing partner at Atlantic Bridge. They have a
Speaker 1: billion euros and capital under management and investments in one
Speaker 1: hundred companies. After the financial turmoil of recent weeks and
Speaker 1: the backdrop of higher interest rates, we've been discussing the
Speaker 1: investment and funding landscape for European tech companies with her.
Speaker 1: Your focus is technology. A lot of the sectors that
Speaker 1: European countries are very interested in now, the likes of
Speaker 1: semiconductors and quantum computing. How much have those sectors been
Speaker 1: affected by the downturn that we're talking about more broadly
Speaker 1: the economy.
Speaker 5: Well, absolutely there has been an in fact, we're probably
Speaker 5: more than twelve months now into the slowdown in the
Speaker 5: downturn in the technology industry. But you're absolutely right to
Speaker 5: highlight sectors. So it is not across the board. What
Speaker 5: I would say is about two years ago the biotech
Speaker 5: industry started to have quite a pullback in terms of
Speaker 5: valuations post COVID, and also, you know, investment and technology
Speaker 5: obviously with the you know, with the fangs et cetera
Speaker 5: in early twenty twenty two, and that in private markets
Speaker 5: fed into are in public markets fed into the private markets,
Speaker 5: but a lot of it around consumer bt C tech, obviously,
Speaker 5: social media, you know, e commerce, all of those sectors
Speaker 5: that got a massive run up through COVID. If you
Speaker 5: look at the fundamental technology sectors of foundational technologies, quantum, semiconductors, cybersecurity,
Speaker 5: those areas actually have performed very well and there's still
Speaker 5: a lot of investor demand. So it is a tough market.
Speaker 5: The difficult equity markets last year followed by now, as
Speaker 5: you said, the SVB collapse has definitely dented confidence and
Speaker 5: so now we have you know, a difficult situation in
Speaker 5: raising both equity. Companies have both raising equity and this
Speaker 5: so it is in the short term a difficult market. However,
Speaker 5: in the nearer term and the longer term, I would
Speaker 5: be very positive because for those particular sectors that we
Speaker 5: just talked about, because of the involvement of new entrance
Speaker 5: into the market, which across Europe is government and also
Speaker 5: in the US.
Speaker 1: Which is interesting because you think government funding is going
Speaker 1: to squeeze businesses like yours. If you're the one who
Speaker 1: would in traditionally have been involved in fundraising or investing
Speaker 1: in these companies, are you being squeezed out.
Speaker 2: By government money?
Speaker 5: No, far from it, because I think the fundamental problem
Speaker 5: which sometimes it takes a crisis or a catastrophe for
Speaker 5: us to make the right decisions. But if you look
Speaker 5: at historically in European companies great research, great research institutions,
Speaker 5: great educational institutions, some of the top universities in the world,
Speaker 5: all in the EU and in the UK. But wherever
Speaker 5: we've struggled is in scaling up those companies. And the
Speaker 5: US out invests US by four to one in all
Speaker 5: of those companies. So every dollar we put into the
Speaker 5: companies in Europe. The US is putting in four. So
Speaker 5: if you add up things like the EU Chips Act
Speaker 5: and the Green Deal and the EIC programs and the
Speaker 5: climate programs that the EU has brought out in the
Speaker 5: last two years alone, there's about one point five trillion
Speaker 5: of capital that is going to be deployed over the
Speaker 5: next five to eight years in these sectors, and that
Speaker 5: is going to make a phenomenal difference to the development
Speaker 5: and scaling of companies, knowledge intensive companies in Europe in
Speaker 5: those sectors. And of course we now have supply chain
Speaker 5: resilience as a key concern, strategic sovereign autonomy and key sectors.
Speaker 5: These are all really important. So the government involvement along
Speaker 5: with the private industry, along with the industry is going
Speaker 5: to mean that Europe has a great chance of building champions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but can those companies be international or European wide
Speaker 1: champions Because we've traditionally seen, particularly in the tech sector,
Speaker 1: companies having to go to the US to expand beyond
Speaker 1: a certain level.
Speaker 2: Is that going to change?
Speaker 5: I think if companies and founders have access to capital
Speaker 5: within Europe for that scale up, peace it will be
Speaker 5: less essential. I suppose for them right now, they've no
Speaker 5: alternative because a lot of If you look at the
Speaker 5: size of the VC markets Europe has actually dramatically improved
Speaker 5: over the last few years. The US VC market is
Speaker 5: about two hundred and thirty three billion, and we almost
Speaker 5: crossed one hundred billion in Europe for the first time
Speaker 5: last year.
Speaker 2: Can I briefly ask you about listings.
Speaker 1: We've been talking a lot about ARM, for example, choosing
Speaker 1: to list in the US rather than the UK.
Speaker 2: Can that change? Our company's always going to have to
Speaker 2: go to the US to list.
Speaker 5: It's a fundamental part of the problem in Europe. I
Speaker 5: think ARM is a symptom of a much deeper, deeper
Speaker 5: problem that we have in Europe. And Minister Pascalodnahuo, our
Speaker 5: finance minister here and Eurogroup president last night spoke about
Speaker 5: capital market union and the banking union that needs to
Speaker 5: happen in Europe. So if you look at London losing ARM.
Speaker 5: If ARM does not list in London, it's somewhere between
Speaker 5: a thirty and seventy billion market cap, I think that'll
Speaker 5: be a terrible loss for the UK and for Europe.
Speaker 5: A semiconductor company with probably the deepest pool of ip
Speaker 5: and talent in the world, and if we look at
Speaker 5: companies like CRH and Flood, there's been a trend right
Speaker 5: to the top. Well, I think we will have to
Speaker 5: deepen the capital pool in Europe. We will have to
Speaker 5: encourage pension funds. Pension funds in the UK used to
Speaker 5: own forty fifty percent of pension funds owned UK equities.
Speaker 5: That's now four or five percent. So I think there
Speaker 5: will have to be government changes to the regulation and
Speaker 5: to the ability for these pension funds and local investors
Speaker 5: to take risk. Right now, US investors it's a deeper
Speaker 5: capital pool. They understand growth and they're willing to pay
Speaker 5: for it. So European companies get higher valuations and they
Speaker 5: get investors that understand growth and they are willing to
Speaker 5: back them.
Speaker 1: That's Atlantic Bridges, Elaine Cocklin. They're talking about the challenges
Speaker 1: Europe faces in scaling up its tech sector. Our next guest,
Speaker 1: Pam Cheng, is the executive vice president of Global Operations
Speaker 1: at AstraZeneca. As a key figure in the role out
Speaker 1: of the COVID vaccine, she sees the global supply chains
Speaker 1: in a different light after the pandemic and had some
Speaker 1: interesting comments about investment prospects in the UK. Obviously, your
Speaker 1: business has had a transformative couple of years because of
Speaker 1: the rollout of the COVID vaccine. How different do your
Speaker 1: supply chains look now compared to that they did three
Speaker 1: years ago?
Speaker 4: Great question. So, first of all, hello Stephen, thank you
Speaker 4: for having me here today. I think you know, I
Speaker 4: think we can all agree coming out of COVID nineteen,
Speaker 4: the role is a different place, right and particularly as
Speaker 4: we continue to whether I'm presidented, challenges like the war
Speaker 4: in Ukraine and the geopolitical tension, we are in a
Speaker 4: very different place. I'm a believer that global and open
Speaker 4: supply chain is critical for our business, right. So if
Speaker 4: you look at the importance of trade, innovation and technology,
Speaker 4: that's made us a more connected and more interdependent world.
Speaker 4: And I don't think that's going to go away. I
Speaker 4: do think that COVID NINETEENNX, we kind of emerge in
Speaker 4: this new world moving forward sort of the term of reglobalization.
Speaker 4: It's going to take on some new rules by some
Speaker 4: of the countries and key players around how to maintain
Speaker 4: some sort of control, bringing back control as well as
Speaker 4: making sure that we continue to open the doors for
Speaker 4: trade to make sure that we don't stifle that innovation.
Speaker 4: So today our supply chain largely hasn't changed that much. However,
Speaker 4: we are taking steps to make sure that we are
Speaker 4: increasing supply chain resilience because in the end of the day,
Speaker 4: in life science and pharmaceutical supply chains, we are talking
Speaker 4: about patients' health, right, so we want to make sure
Speaker 4: that our supply chain continue to be resilient in.
Speaker 2: Terms of agility.
Speaker 1: Obviously, you have a massive production shift to produce your
Speaker 1: COVID vaccine.
Speaker 2: Do you have now an ability to do something like that? Again?
Speaker 2: What if you learned learn from that experience?
Speaker 4: And I think the prerequisite of that is having a
Speaker 4: global and open supply chain environment. That's a perfect example
Speaker 4: why we cannot localize or regionalize medicine supply chains, right,
Speaker 4: I mean, we commercialize, so we develop and supply over
Speaker 4: three billion doses of COVID nineteen vaccine. We supply over
Speaker 4: to one hundred and eighty countries, two third of which
Speaker 4: are low and middle income countries, and not to mention,
Speaker 4: it had no profit during the pandemic. We would not
Speaker 4: have been able to do that if we had local
Speaker 4: and regional supply chain and we're unable to kind of
Speaker 4: leverage that scale and capability and resources globally. We had
Speaker 4: supply chain in Asia, in Latin America, North America and
Speaker 4: Europe for examble that kind of pulled together to make
Speaker 4: this happen.
Speaker 1: You announced just about eighteen months ago that you were
Speaker 1: going to locate at three hundred and sixty million dollar
Speaker 1: findhuction plant here in Ireland, something that was controversial in
Speaker 1: British political circles because they had hoped to be able
Speaker 1: to attract that investment as well.
Speaker 2: What's the latest update on that Irish side.
Speaker 4: So the final decision was to cite it in Ireland
Speaker 4: co located with our Alexion manufacturing facility in College Park.
Speaker 4: Citing of a pharmaceutical, medicine or facility is a very
Speaker 4: complicated decision, right. It's it's not just about tax, It's
Speaker 4: not just about the financial implications. It's about the resources,
Speaker 4: the capability which is very very important, and the operating environment.
Speaker 4: Having that friendly operating environment and with Ireland sort of
Speaker 4: operations climate around, focus on climate change, focus on green energy,
Speaker 4: focusing on capabilities, and in the UK part of it,
Speaker 4: you can, but I think we look at the total package.
Speaker 4: And if you look at the financial implications along with
Speaker 4: all the things I've talked about, this is what this
Speaker 4: was the right place. What could facility the UK do?
Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned tax there as well as something
Speaker 1: goes to your CEO. It highlights is the reason for
Speaker 1: locating that plant in Ireland. What could the UK do
Speaker 1: to better attract businesses like yours?
Speaker 4: I think we've publicly said that we you know, we
Speaker 4: will like the UK government to really sort of focus
Speaker 4: on innovation, value innovation at faster around innovation and some
Speaker 4: of the regulatory means and really give incentive to drive
Speaker 4: for companies to be driving that innovation, initiating that innovation
Speaker 4: within the UK.
Speaker 2: Does that mean financial incentives?
Speaker 4: It could include that not only financial implications, but it
Speaker 4: can include that. But the more importantly is that overall
Speaker 4: operating environment.
Speaker 2: Okay, on a more broad issue, where what is Astroseneka's
Speaker 2: view of COVID nineteen Now is it something that is
Speaker 2: still a large portion of your business is focused on.
Speaker 4: So we have a new therapeutic category that we've co
Speaker 4: vaccines and immunology that we are looking into, as you know,
Speaker 4: above and beyond the COVID nineteen vaccine. We also have
Speaker 4: an antibody for the immunal compromise population, so we continue
Speaker 4: to work on that. We continue we have a large
Speaker 4: research pipeline in looking at continue vaccine for the next
Speaker 4: pandemic or the next evolutions of of COVID nineteen or similar,
Speaker 4: as well as antibodies for the immunocompromised patients. So we
Speaker 4: continue to do that research such that Gappha bit if
Speaker 4: should there be a need, we are ready to support.
Speaker 2: That's as senecas Pam Chang.
Speaker 1: There now one person who is very much related to
Speaker 1: the trade aspect of that conversation is Denny Redone. He
Speaker 1: is the Chief Trade Enforcement Officer at the European Commission,
Speaker 1: responsible for enforcing the EUSE trade deals with the rest
Speaker 1: of the world. Are you the person the trading partners
Speaker 1: need to be scared of when it comes to doing
Speaker 1: business with the EU?
Speaker 6: I don't think it's a matter of being scared. I
Speaker 6: don't think we want to be punative, closed, or for
Speaker 6: that matter, protectionists in any way. That's not in the
Speaker 6: US interest. What are we trying to do. What we're
Speaker 6: trying to do is are two very basic things. One
Speaker 6: is we want to make sure where we negotiate trade
Speaker 6: agreements trade treaties, we maximize for all firms in all
Speaker 6: member states the potential benefits from those agreements, and that
Speaker 6: requires engagement with third country partner. A trade treaty is
Speaker 6: a piece of paper. You need to inject some life
Speaker 6: into it. And yes, indeed we're necessary. We have to
Speaker 6: ensure the compliance by our third country partners of their commitments,
Speaker 6: and there from time to time we have to be
Speaker 6: assertive in ensuring that compliance of commitments. So you continue
Speaker 6: to basically have a policy that stands on three legs.
Speaker 6: One is openness, second one is sustainability because that is
Speaker 6: important for Europe. And the third one, yes, is a
Speaker 6: form of assertiveness that enables us to navigate a world
Speaker 6: which is a bit more adverse, a bit more fragmented
Speaker 6: in some cases in certain jurisdictions, a bit more protectionist
Speaker 6: against you interests, and we need to push back.
Speaker 1: We don't hear from you very often when it comes
Speaker 1: to your role as Chief Trade Enforcement Officer.
Speaker 2: I'm wondering in this role.
Speaker 1: Which, if the EUS trade deals do you kind of
Speaker 1: generates the most work for you?
Speaker 2: What sort of issues are you working on?
Speaker 6: Look, we have a network of free trade agreements, probably
Speaker 6: the biggest in the world. We have some forty six
Speaker 6: trade agreements with seventy eight partners, so that requires constant
Speaker 6: attention to make sure that in all these jurisdictions, EU firms,
Speaker 6: EU investors are basically not being discriminated. So we're looking,
Speaker 6: of course at some of the big markets around the
Speaker 6: world where we have a relationship based on WTO terms,
Speaker 6: the US China, but we're also looking at all of
Speaker 6: these preferential agreements, including in our neighborhoods close to the
Speaker 6: European Union, where we make a lot of trade and
Speaker 6: we make a lot of investment, and where it is
Speaker 6: necessary to maintain our footprint on a non discriminatory basis
Speaker 6: and ensure that the rules based relations that we have
Speaker 6: with these countries is upheld.
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of some of the
Speaker 1: enforcement actions that you have been involved with in some
Speaker 1: of those recent tradetails.
Speaker 6: Well, look, we use a continuum of tool so in
Speaker 6: some cases it's about being prevented, it's about engaging with
Speaker 6: third country jurisdictions even before they take measures regulatory measures
Speaker 6: that are going to create discrimination or create a market
Speaker 6: access problem for our firms to make sure that that
Speaker 6: doesn't happen. And that's the kind of market access work
Speaker 6: that you will not actually see that it is the
Speaker 6: most effective. We solve problems before they actually emerge. In
Speaker 6: some other cases, we have recourse to the dispute settlement,
Speaker 6: the enforcement mechanisms that we have under our trade agreements
Speaker 6: or under the WTGO. We keep using the wto dispute settlement.
Speaker 6: We have prevailed a number of trade disputes that we have,
Speaker 6: and that's the civilized way of dealing with trade problems.
Speaker 2: State to state.
Speaker 6: We have recourse to third party adjudication to clarify what
Speaker 6: is the nature of the commitments and therefore to solve
Speaker 6: the problems that we may have in one of the
Speaker 6: other jurisdictions. We have prevailed, for example at panel stage
Speaker 6: this week in a dispute with India over their tariffs
Speaker 6: in the information and technology area.
Speaker 2: That is important.
Speaker 6: It's a basic commitment. We believe that countries should abide
Speaker 6: by their bindings in terms of tariffs, and this is
Speaker 6: why we have decided to adjudicate this in a wto dispute.
Speaker 1: One of the things that we talk about when we
Speaker 1: talk about regulation by the opinion is the Brussels effect
Speaker 1: of how is it set standards for the world. I'm
Speaker 1: interested in how the trades aspect of relationships and forces
Speaker 1: sustainability and labor standards. That that's something that's difficult to
Speaker 1: enforce the new dealing with very diverse raisions in the world.
Speaker 6: Well, obviously it is difficult because you dookie get issues
Speaker 6: which are deep behind the board and have to do
Speaker 6: with production methods and standards. So it is complex, but
Speaker 6: we basically unsustainability achieve sustainability in our trade relations in
Speaker 6: different ways. First through the trade agreement. You're right. We
Speaker 6: have trade agreements that have ambitious binding provisions in the
Speaker 6: area of labor, in the area environment, and we're putting
Speaker 6: a lot of focus on the actual concrete implementation of
Speaker 6: that through primarily cooperation. We also have autonomous instruments in
Speaker 6: the EU carbon border adjustment, deforestation legislation. This complements what
Speaker 6: we can do in trade agreements. And finally, I think
Speaker 6: we must continue to engage in international regulatory cooperation. Yes,
Speaker 6: the Brussels effects place it is important, but we cannot
Speaker 6: export wholesale to the world our regulatory models. We also
Speaker 6: have to engage with countries in order to make sure
Speaker 6: that they converge voluntarily in these areas and avoid therefore
Speaker 6: trade and investment frictions.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about your work in terms
Speaker 2: of sanctions and Russia since the invasion of Ukraine. From
Speaker 2: a trade point of view, what sort of work have
Speaker 2: you been involved in there.
Speaker 6: So the trade sanctions are an important part of the
Speaker 6: economic sanctions that we have taken in the face of
Speaker 6: russia segration against Ukraine. You have to realize that we
Speaker 6: have in a sense severed our trade links to the
Speaker 6: tune of about fifty percent of what we were exporting
Speaker 6: to Russia pre war and perhaps sixty five percent of
Speaker 6: what we were importing pre war. So it's a significant deintegration,
Speaker 6: de coupling of our relationship with Russia, and it is
Speaker 6: having an impact because what it is doing is degrading
Speaker 6: the capacity, the military, industrial and technological capacity of Russia
Speaker 6: over the medium term and therefore its ability to continue
Speaker 6: to wage its war in Ukraine. So the trade sanctions
Speaker 6: on the technology side, through export controls in particular on
Speaker 6: trade are playing their role as an element of our response.
Speaker 1: So now you have us from data protection to venture
Speaker 1: capital supply chains to trade regulation. The gears of the
Speaker 1: world economy are turning to adapt to new challenges and
Speaker 1: geopleesic challenges here in Europe as well, as well as,
Speaker 1: of course those new opportunities like artificial intelligence. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening to this special podcast. I'm Stephen Carroll at the
Speaker 1: Bloomberg New Economy Gateway event in Ireland.