WEBVTT - History Vs. TR 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:05.800 History Versus is a production of I Heart Radio and 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:11.960 mental flaws. The carvers stand on the scaffolding hundreds of 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.600 feet high, clad in overalls and face masks, small pneumatic 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.919 hammers in hand. The clatter of drills and granite dust 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.720 fills the air, as they have almost every day of 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:25.319 construction on that rushmore for years, these men have worked 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:28.440 to sculpture four presidential faces out of the mountain, and 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.680 now they're about to begin finishing work on the massive sculptures. 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:36.160 Final face work on the face had begun in ninety seven, 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.000 and it had been dedicated with much fanfare, including a 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.000 firework show two years later, before it was even close 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.839 to finished. To get to this point, men called pointers 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.040 had marked where and how deep to drill powder. Monkeys 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:51.760 or workers in charge of the dynamite had dangled from 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.480 the top of the mountain and carefully placed small charges 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.200 to precisely blast away rough exterior rock to reveal white, 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:03.360 sparkling granite. Drillers using air powered jackhammers had further removed 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.240 stone to get to the carving surface, and carvers, many 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:09.320 of whom had worked their way up from other jobs 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.560 in the mountain, had created polka dot as honeycomb grids 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.240 on the stone, using a hammer and chisel to remove 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:19.280 extra granite. Throughout the process, the features on the sixty 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.800 foot tall face had slowly slowly emerged and gained definition 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:28.120 to eleven foot wide eyes, a twenty foot tall nose, 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:33.119 a massive mustache, and the mere suggestion of glasses across 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:35.560 the bridge of the nose and the upper cheeks, an 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.880 illusion which will look like full frames to the spectators below. 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:44.240 It's now time for what sculptors call fine finishing. The 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.680 carvers switch on their neumatic cameras, also known as bumpers. 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:50.639 Each is equipped with four bits of steel that clatter 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.720 against the rock, removing or bumping it a fraction of 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.600 an inch at a time. Cautiously, they apply the hammers 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.400 to the stone, buffing the honeycomb grid it off of 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:05.600 Theodore Roosevelt's massive chin. We know that tr was an adventurer, 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.560 a man who fought corruption and advocated for a square 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.200 deal for all, the sporting hunter who lent his name 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:13.640 to the Teddy Bear, a person who cared deeply about 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.919 conserving nature for the next generation. And yeah, the guy 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.079 in the night at the Museum movies, and I'm aunt Rushmore, 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:24.480 but there is so much more to Roosevelt's legacy from 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.160 mental flaws and I hurt Radio. This is History Versus, 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:30.040 a podcast about how your favorite historical figures faced off 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.520 against their greatest foes. I'm your host, Aaron McCarthy, and 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.480 for this the final episode of our first season, we're 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.720 taking a look back at TR's legacy. This episode is 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:44.400 History Versus Theodore Roosevelt. Mount Rushmore is probably one of 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:46.600 the things people think of first when they think about 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.880 Theodore Roosevelt's legacy. The mountain, named for New York lawyer 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.280 Charles Rushmore in the eighties, is located in the Black 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.880 Hills of South Dakota, and I head there on a 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:59.160 human August Day with the goal of talking to some 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:02.560 other visitors abo Theodore Roosevelt, his legacy and why they 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.120 think he's on the mountain. I don't know about you, 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.280 but I hate striking up a conversation with strangers, so 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.040 I spend a fair amount of time procrastinating. It rains 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.200 and then it hails, and in the safety of the 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:16.760 gift shop, I contemplate buying some tr sox that say 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.680 speaks softly and carry a big stick, and also giving 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.480 up on this whole interviewing random people thing. But when 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:27.520 I head back outside, some interview subjects find me. They're 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.920 the Pope's parents, Ben and Sally, and kids, Harry and Alice, 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.120 and they're from London. They came here in part because 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.440 Alice saw Mount Rushmore on an episode of Phineas and 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:40.080 ferb Harry's favorite president of the Mountain is Washington, but 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.520 Alice prefers Roosevelt because he was in Knight at the Museum. 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:45.760 So what else do you know about him besides his 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.840 exploits and Knight at the Museum. He liked to ride 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:53.280 horses and he was a cool guy. We wanted to 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:57.080 bring them here anyway, but it was a particular wish 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:02.560 of Alice's because sheet growing up being that image TV 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.480 that's been Harry and Ellis's dad. If you had to 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.480 guess why he was up on the mountain today, why 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.520 he was chosen, what would you say, Here's Harry. You've 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.880 probably made a big commitment to the country and did 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.520 something that people wanted to remember. Next, I chat with 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.840 Lane Johnson, who hails from Texas. Lane knows all about 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:24.920 tiers trip to the Amazon. So his response when I 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.640 asked why tr is on the mountain makes sense, I 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:31.400 would say because of his sense of adventure. Sharon Right 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.320 from Wisconsin says, a lot has changed since the first 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:36.760 time she came here. What was it like back then? 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.039 Very quiet and very serene. What what can you tell 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:44.280 me about t R Well, he was kind of the 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.680 the goal getter for the National Park System, and he 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:52.480 really was one to help preserve the outdoors for everybody, 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:56.280 to keep it from being everything being commercialized. Although I'd 0:04:56.279 --> 0:05:01.960 say this is getting pretty commercialized. It's free to come here, 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:04.640 but you have to pay to park, so it's not 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.160 really free. You used to be able to come here 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:11.479 and enjoy it without having to pay to park. Finally, 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.800 I chat with Aretha Wilson from Ohio of the presidents 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.240 up on the mountain. She says Roosevelt is her favorite. 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.799 Roosevelt respects US supporters, no matter how big or small, 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.160 so that's a good thing. We're all standing here today 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.880 thanks to South Dakota state historian Don't Robinson, who wanted 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:30.120 to create a tourist destination in the Black Hills so 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.919 more people would come to South Dakota. Initially, he wanted 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.159 to carve famous figures from the history of the West 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:39.800 into granite spires located nearby. But the artists chosen to 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.000 create the monument goods On. Borg Lam had a completely 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:47.839 different location and vision in mind the president's. When it 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.000 came down to which presidents to put in the mountain, 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.600 most were no brainers. Jefferson was the author of the 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.840 Declaration of Independence and had expanded the country through the 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:01.039 Louisiana Purchase. Washington was the father of the country and 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:05.320 allowed Jefferson's ideas to become a reality. Lincoln kept the 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:09.560 country together in a time of great strife. The tr 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:14.599 Well trra was controversial. Here's Marine McGee, Bollinger Chief of 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.680 Interpretation and Public Affairs, and Mount Rushmore National Memorial. The 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:25.280 whole carving process that idea begins in Well. Roosevelt had 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.359 died in nine so most people alive at that point 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:33.320 in they knew him, they knew of his politics, they 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:37.159 knew of his presidencies, and there were a lot of 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.560 people that didn't like him, so he was controversial. But 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.400 Borgland did like him, and it was Burglan's work of art, 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.719 and he made the final decision, Theodore Roosevelt will go 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:50.720 up there and he'll go up there because of the 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.640 Panama Canal. Today people look at it and say, well, 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.440 of course, Theodore Roosevelt's up there, the conservation president. But 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:01.360 that's not what Borglan was thinking. Burgo also knew Tier personally. 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:03.840 He had campaigned for the bull moose when he ran 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.640 for president in nine twelve. Mount Rushmore consists of a 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.640 fine grained granite called the Harvey Peak granite. The fine 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.360 grain means the rock holds together well when you carve it, 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.240 but it also makes it harder to carve. On the 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.760 plus side, that means it takes a while to a road. 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.320 The erosion rate of the Harney granite is an inch 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:29.200 every ten thousand years. This is tough rock. In other words, 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:30.960 people are going to be staring at those faces on 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:35.000 the mountain for a long time. Creating Mount Rushmore was 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:39.000 not easy work. Finishing the sculpture took fourteen years, and 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:42.440 Borglum died before it was completed. His son Lincoln took 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.800 over for him. Tire's face was the last one finished 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:49.680 in one according to Rex Allen Smith in his book 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:54.080 The Carving of Mount Rushmore. At its dedication in nine twelve, 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:57.200 thousand people attended the largest attendance of any of the 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:01.680 face dedications. Today, the memorial gets more than two million 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.760 visitors annually. Here's one funny thing about Tier being on 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:10.560 Mount Rushmore. He probably would have hated it. He didn't 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:15.560 want any monument of him, like a statue with him 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.800 or him on horseback. He hated those kind of monuments. 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.640 He wanted monuments to be either utilitarian in nature, like 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:27.160 naming a building after him, or to be artistic. That's 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.000 Michael Cullinane, a professor of US history at the University 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.400 of Roehampton in London and author of Theodore Roosevelt's Ghost, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.439 The History and Memory of an American Icon. Colinane is 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.680 a presidential historian and a diplomatic historian, and he spent 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:43.839 the last ten years looking into Tier's legacy as well 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:48.040 as his accomplishments and foreign policies. What's the strangest place 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:52.240 you've seen the Roosevelt legacy sort of manifest in pop culture? 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.240 You know, he shows up in the weirdest places. Miley 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:57.800 Cyrus has got a tattoo on her arm of a 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:02.840 quote from Theodore Roosevelt. Miley's tattoo aside or maybe included, 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.920 colin Nane describes Roosevelt's legacy over the last one hundred 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.120 years since his death as a roller coaster. When he 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.800 dies in the right, the first American red Scare is 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.199 going on, and communism is, you know, is a communist 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:20.160 or a boogeyman. And Roosevelt is very much seen as 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:24.160 this patriotic American and and also a conservationist in the 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.000 progressive and all those things as well. But it's almost 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.679 like he's a saint. After he dies, that'll change. When 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.360 historian Henry Pringle published his biography of tr in Ye, 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.440 Colinane describes Pringle's book as a purposeful revision of Roosevelt 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.360 that downgraded him from a saint and helped inaugurate what 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.760 has been called the Crazy Teddy period. That image of 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:48.400 Roosevelt as a juvenile guy who made impulsive decisions lasted 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:52.320 until the nineteen sixties. There's a reappraisal, but it never 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.760 really goes back to the Saint Lee version or or 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.199 back to that crazy Teddy version. Instead, what we get 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.560 is a much more moderate version that a nuanced man 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.560 with his fault you know, warts and all, as some 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.680 people say, and I think actually that's been good for 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.520 the tr brand over the last few years, because it 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.600 means he's this really human character that people can can 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.840 relate to. So he's not perfect and he's not a demon. 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.960 He's something in between, which I think most of us are. 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.800 Tears family was extremely protective of his legacy, especially Edith. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.680 I've always referred to Edith Roosevelt as the gatekeeper of 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:34.240 TR's legacy because she was able to pass over documents 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:40.440 to historians, she was able to restrict other um other 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.960 writers from using those documents. In fact, there's some famous 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:47.760 incidences in terms of copyright law and which Edith tried 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.000 to stop people that had letters that Roosevelt wrote to them. 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:55.000 She tried to stop having those published. And so really 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.120 she acts as the gatekeeper for his memory and his legacy, 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.840 and throughout her life until she dies in the late forties, 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.120 she that's her role um and she she really helps 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:09.880 the Memorial Association's work towards the image that she wants 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.559 to see promoted. Tears legacy was so complicated that even 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.080 his own family couldn't agree on exactly what it was. 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:20.280 The Hyde Park Roosevelt's A. K. Franklin and by marriage 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:25.640 Eleanor and the Oyster Bay Roosevelt's Alice, Ted Jr. Etcetera. Famously, 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.560 but it heads over it because at that point, after 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.880 TR dies, the legacy becomes the next generation, so they 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.400 get to shape the legacy of TR. And Alice and 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:39.520 Ted are pushing in one direction, and Franklin and Theodore 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.800 Roosevelt's niece Eleanor, who of course marries Franklin, are pushing 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.600 in an opposite direction. And that that plays out really 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:52.000 up until the sixties, when Eleanor and Franklin and Ted 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.560 are are dead. Alice lives on until the nineteen eighties, 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.440 but by that stage Theodore Roosevelt had kind of become 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:03.000 a bipartisan figure um maybe in part because Franklin Roosevelt 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:06.320 promoted him as a as as the Square Deal, as 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.719 being the forerunner to the New Deal. When we talk 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.240 about TR's legacy, we often talk about how he was 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:16.160 the first modern president. As Kathleen Dalton wrote in Theodore 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:19.400 Roosevelt A Strenuous Life, he is heralded as the architect 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.360 of the modern presidency, as a world leader who boldly 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.360 reshaped the office to meet the needs of the new 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.760 century and redefined America's place in the world. When Roosevelt 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.000 became president, technology was changing rapidly, and so is life 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:37.000 for everyday Americans thanks to industrialization. Here's Tyler caliberta education 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:40.480 technician at Sagamore Hill National Historic Site. The country has 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.760 changed by the time Roosevelt's president, and it's the twentieth century. 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.679 Roosevelt becomes president in nineteen o one, and all of 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.560 a sudden, you have the United States operating on a 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.240 world scale, where previously had been pretty isolation US. Now 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:57.679 you have territories in the Pacific. Um. You fought a 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:02.079 war with the Spanish and Cuba uh um. Roosevelt begins 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.839 his presidency in the United States is still occupying the Philippines. 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.200 They're building the Panama Canal during his presidency. And you 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:13.800 have adjustments in technology. So the presidency, all of a sudden, 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.480 is kind of a full time job. You can't have 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.440 a break for the summertime. He was called to be 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.480 a modern president because of these changes in technology and 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.840 changes in policy, changes of the United States policy on 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.400 the world stage. Presidency has changed. In Roosevelt being a 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:33.920 young man, um, I think was fit for things to 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.880 rapidly change during his presidency. In my opinion, it was 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:41.240 also Roosevelt's image control that made him a decidedly modern president. 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.560 When he got into politics, he started writing posterity letters 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.040 for historians to study, and he was doing it for 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.040 the Graham as the kids say, long before social media 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:54.160 was a thing, to cultivate his desired cowboy image. For example, 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:56.480 he had a photo snap to himself in a buckskin 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.959 suit that he had made for his time with the Dakotas, 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.880 but someone knew him later commented that it was indisputable 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:06.960 evidence of the rank tenderfoot. Also, though the photo appeared 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.520 to have been taken into forest, it was actually taken 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.760 in a studio in New York. When he pursued both 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.400 thieves down the Little Missouri River, Tiara made sure to 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:17.800 bring a camera with him and to get a photo 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.640 of himself watching over the bandits, But it was a reenactment, 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:24.040 and according to some the men in the picture weren't 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.880 even the actual thieves. But there were also sides to 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.800 Roosevelt that he wouldn't let the public see, like how 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.520 he wouldn't allow himself to be photographed in his tennis outfit, 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.160 just one more example of his image control. For Colinane, 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.360 it was Roosevelt's use of the bully pulpit as a 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.760 pr tool that made him the first modern president. I 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:47.880 think Rosevelt ability to speak to the average voter and 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.440 to get across a version of policy that he wants 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.160 to see take shape. It's really his administration that's the 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:58.840 first to do that. He is a public relations um dynamo. 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.040 He ins to the war in the Philippines as an example. 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.120 Roosevelt declared the war over in nineteen o two, but 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.880 it wasn't over. The war goes on really until nineteen fifteen, 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.680 but officially the war has ended in nineteen o two, 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:17.360 and that public relations perspective is a huge prove The 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.600 role of president as chief promoter is the one that 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.040 Roosevelt really takes on and makes that that's what makes 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.720 the big change in office. Many of TR's actions during 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.200 his tenure fundamentally changed the office of the president. Like 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.200 say his decision to get things done via executive order. 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.600 He'd make a call and then leave Congress to debate it. 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.479 He didn't act impulsively. He thought things through very carefully. 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.240 I think he had very strong convictions, and he acted 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.280 very assertively. Maybe that's the word that I would choose 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.200 to use. That He is incredibly assertive as a president, 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.760 and I think every president since him, maybe with the 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.160 exception of the Republican presidents in the nineteen twenties, but 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.440 beside those three presidents, more often than not presidents have 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.200 acted assertively and they said that it's it's their prerogative 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.520 to act that way. And I mean Roosevelt paved the 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.520 way for for the presidency to be that kind of 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.880 of an instrument of power. Before Roosevelt, no president had 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.200 hit three hundred executive orders, but Tire signed more than 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.480 a thousand, and future presidents followed his example. Woodrow Wilson 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.280 and Calvin Coolidge would each far exceed that amount, and 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.920 they would all be eclipsed by Roosevelt yet again, when 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.560 FDR issued three thousand, seven hundred and twenty one executive 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:34.640 orders over the course of his twelve years in office, 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:39.240 a record that probably isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Tear's 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.680 view that he could do anything not expressly forbidden by 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.720 the Constitution or by law was also a game changer 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.440 for the presidency. The presidency has sort of gone that 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:51.960 way with trs constitutional view, in that the president, if 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.040 there are non enumerated powers, the president can still execute them. 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.520 I mean things like going to war is a really 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.200 good example. When he sent the Worship to Panama to 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:06.359 support them, he was effectively sending American troops into a 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:10.320 war zone to support a revolution. And since then it 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:14.120 that's happened quite a bit. According to Colinane, Tear's decision 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.320 to intervene internationally has been one of the most lasting 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:21.080 legacies of his administration. Many other presidents have followed suit 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.400 Woodrow Wilson did this a lot, but you can think 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:29.680 about other interventions later on, from you know, Vietnam to Afghanistan, 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.640 where the United States president has deployed troops and then 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.399 Congress has had to respond, and Congress has tried to 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.080 reign in presidential power and a number of different realms, 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:44.159 but perhaps most in war powers, and gave the Passive 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.800 Warpowers resolution in the seventies to to restrict the amount 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:49.879 of time at the president can send troops abroad, but 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:53.480 that's not really been an effective measure to stop the president. 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:57.000 Historians today are still debating about some of trs actions 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.880 on the international stage, including those he took to speed 0:17:59.920 --> 0:18:03.200 up the Panama Canal, so the Panama Canal and how 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.440 you feel about the Panama Canal often has a very 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:09.920 clear correlation with how you think about American power, more 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:15.000 generally an American imperialism and empire. If you view Roosevelt's 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.800 decision to take Panama, or to force Panama to have 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.639 this revolution and then take the canal, then you then 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.200 you see American power or something that's a benevolent force 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.840 in the world. But if you see that as an 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:31.199 overstretch of American power, then you probably think that Roosevelt 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.359 was acting beyond, you know, the the norms and the 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.120 regulations of the Constitution and of what America is supposed 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.520 to be. I think, actually the Panama decision strikes an 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:47.000 ongoing paradox in American history and particularly about American foreign relations, 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.800 which is that either the United States is to act 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.800 as an example for the world, or the United States 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.119 is to actively set the example for the world. In 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.080 other words, should America stand passively as an example and 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:02.320 hope others follows suit, or should America be more proactive. 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.400 I think all foreign policies wind up putting the United 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.160 States in one of those two roles, and Roosevelt very much, 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.879 very much saw the United States is acting. Um you know, 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.600 not just as an example, but setting the example for 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.159 the world. And so that's that's why he acts the 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.520 way he does with with Panama. It's one of those 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.479 things that successive generations of politicians have continued to debate. 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:25.919 It's been a flashpoint. It's a really good case study 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.280 to think about the differences that we have in our 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.520 foreign policies. Some of TR's other actions on the global 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.200 stage perhaps sent the message they meant to at the time, 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:39.000 but didn't necessarily change the course of history. I'm talking 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.800 about tiers display of American naval power, the Great White Fleet. 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.439 It was showing off and it was an opportunity to 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.560 show the world that there is this emerging naval force. 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:52.560 And there's no question that after nine the United States 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.480 as a naval force will only grow in stature from 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.720 that point on. It's a two ocean naval force. There's 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:00.439 only one other country in the world that's a two 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:02.679 ocean naval force, and that's Britain, you know, famed at 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:06.320 this time for ruling the waves. So this was this 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.479 was a big pronouncement on the world stage, but didn't 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.520 really have any effect that it stopped Japan, for example, 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:17.240 from taking over colonies in the Pacific and eventually becoming 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:19.760 one of the access powers in World War Two. I 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.960 don't link so um, and it certainly made the Japanese 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:25.879 more deft at how they negotiated. It meant that foreign 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.359 relations with Britain, say, for example, in the Pacific, became 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:34.560 more important, but Roosevelt's fleet didn't actually change the balance 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:43.439 of power in the Pacific. We'll be right back. I 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.399 came into this podcast wanting to show Theodore Roosevelt not 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.639 as a caricature but as a real person, and no 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.879 discussion of Theodore Roosevelt's legacy would be complete without talking 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.480 about his views on race, which we've touched on a 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.480 bit in other episodes. Well, r views on race, I 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:00.640 had to say, are probably one of the most interesting 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.600 bits about him, and I don't think we've given enough 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.800 air time to his views on race. I think like 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:08.359 we're living in a kind of sound bite culture where 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.400 if you can't get your view across very quickly, then 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:14.320 you know, no one understands it, or they don't want 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:16.480 to understand it, you know. And I think trs views 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:20.879 on race were really quite complicated, and they're presented as 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:26.560 effectively white supremacy or um or just playing racist, I guess, 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.280 but there's so much more to it than that. Colinane 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:33.280 is right. I've read a bunch of books about tr 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:35.800 for this podcast, and have read that his views of 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.399 race were complicated, that he had a divided heart on 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.040 matters of race, and that when it came to African 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:46.359 Americans his attitude was enlightened. Many books seem to only 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.480 touch on the subject, perhaps because tires thoughts on race 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.600 are incredibly complex. So with that said, we won't be 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.000 able to impact all of Tira's views on race here. 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.280 If after you listen to this you're interested in learning more, 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:01.919 i'd wreck have been picking up Thomas Dyer's book, Theodore 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:06.040 Roosevelt and the Idea of Race. In previous episodes, we've 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:08.440 discussed how tiers thoughts on race impacted how he dealt 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.280 with other nations. So in this discussion, we'll be focusing 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.760 mostly on his attitudes toward African Americans and Native Americans. 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:18.560 But before we get into tr specifically, it's important to 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:21.919 put his views into context. We all know that tr 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:24.480 was a curious guy who thought of himself as a scientist. 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:27.960 So what were the quote unquote scientific views of race 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.400 at the time. To find out, I called Dr Justine 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.520 Hill Edwards, an assistant professor of history at the University 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.960 of Virginia whose focuses on African American history, the history 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:41.959 of slavery, and the history of capitalism. There were UM 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:47.920 scientists who were then trying to find a scientific research 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:55.320 based rationale for UM sex segregation and for white racial superiority. 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.959 Really in the late nineteen in the early twentieth centuries, 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:03.159 UM there there was a rise in racial science and 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:09.760 in particular eugenics, so that UM it kind of provided 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:15.000 a more kind of scientific rationale for ideas of white 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:18.439 racial purity and why that should be the standard in 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:22.040 the ideal. And so it's really finding a scientific way 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:27.840 to explain why white superiority was good and why it 0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:31.719