WEBVTT - How Worker Co-ops Work 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:07.720 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:14.000 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:16.720 Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:19.640 should know. And it turns out that this is the 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:23.960 stuff you should know about worker cooperatives, but you might 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:28.480 be more familiar with as co ops, not coops. That's 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:30.440 why they put the hyphen in there, because it can 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:31.720 get pretty confusing. 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:33.040 Yeah. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.599 In fact, I went back when I titled this episode 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:39.120 for Jerry and added that hyphen because Jerry would say, 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:41.240 what is this think about coops? 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:45.360 Yep, yep, And I'm sure Aaron Cooper's like, oh, but 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.960 don't get your hopes up, Aaron, We're not talking about you. Wait, 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:55.240 we just did it. Spinally happened. So Chuck, just let 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.760 me lay the scene here for a second. Okay, Because 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.120 co ops, especially for those of us in the United States, 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:05.480 they are like I can think of one, and that 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.160 is in Atlanta, and it is called Sevenanda, and it 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:11.679 is one of the few vegetarian grocery stores in the 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:15.840 entire country. That's my experience with a co op, right. 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.000 Yeah, Sevenonda legendary store. 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.839 It is, and it's great. A great, great grocery store. 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:24.679 So they're kind of like this almost like fringe thing, 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.320 especially in the US, and you know basically everywhere they're 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.520 not really mainstream. But there was a time where there 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:33.920 are people who are like, this is the way to go, 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.600 this is how industry should develop. And it all just 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.600 like most things that have to do with labor and capital, 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.360 stemmed from the industrial revolution and it was a path 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.560 that people that we could have taken, and we so 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:53.760 took the capitalist route that it's we don't even question 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:59.120 the idea that people with money buy a mill and 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:01.640 all the equipment, and they hire you and put you 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:03.400 to work, and in return for your work, they give 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.760 you a wage and they manage things and they say 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.560 go do this, do that faster, stop doing that, and 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.040 do this instead. And again we just don't even question 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:17.080 it because it's so normal. But there's an alternative worker 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:21.800 cooperatives that it's just a different way of doing things, 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:23.560 and the idea that it could have been the way 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.960 things win is really surprising and interesting. 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:29.880 Yeah, well you forgot the last part of that little descriptor, 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.840 which is they get the money the profit from that 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.079 said business because they're the owners. 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.840 Yeah, that's true. Yeah, and we don't really question that, 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:40.440 although that's a little more easily questioned, you know. 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.600 Yeah, but you know that pushed co ops now in 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:48.760 the United States to this fringe area where you might 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.880 have a you know, you kind of look at them 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.080 as or at least I do, as like these little 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:58.560 hippie operations, sure like Sevenanda, like this little vegetarian grocery 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:02.679 store that has been in little five Points since I mean, 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:04.560 it's got to be since the seventies, don't. 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:06.079 You think it sure seems that way. 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:07.280 Yes, yeah, I. 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:08.840 Mean some of the stuff on the shelves looks like 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:10.120 it's been there since the seventies. 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.560 For sure. It's definitely got that well lived in feel 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:15.080 for sure. 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.440 Yeah, it's great, but that yeah, it's a fringe thing 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.120 for the United States. And I guess we could go 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.520 back in time a little bit and talk about where 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.040 these were this idea was. 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.400 Sort of born. And I know we've talked about Owenism before, 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:29.840 haven't we. 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:32.960 I don't know if we've talked about Owenism, but we've 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:36.360 definitely talked about the Chartists. But I mean, we've talked 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.400 about so many utopian societies from the nineteenth century who 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:40.160 can keep track. 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:42.640 Yeah, I guess you're right, or maybe I'm thinking of 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:45.920 I don't know, one of those other ones. But yeah, 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:51.400 this was a utopian sort of philosophy. Owenism named after 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:53.760 a guy named Owen, Robert Owen. He was a Welsh 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.400 mill owner and he had this vision that you were 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.440 kind of talking about, like, hey, it's it's early on, 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:05.320 it's in eighteen twenty five, and there's a way forward 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.120 that could be great for everyone. He tried this out 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:12.000 in New Harmony, Indiana, like I said, in eighteen twenty five, 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:12.720 for the first time. 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.760 Yeah, it didn't really live very long. New Harmony, Indiana 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.240 is still there. It's not a utopian society any long ago, 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.320 though it looks like a nice town based on its website. 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:28.479 But his whole idea was like what happens if everybody 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:32.640 kind of takes care of everybody else in this again mill. 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.240 I think he was a mill owner to where like 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:39.880 your children are schooled and fed, and you have opportunities 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.000 for education outside of your work, and he found that 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.599 productivity goes through the roof in those situations. So that 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:51.920 was it wasn't like this is the first worker cooperative. Yeah, 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.799 he helped lay the groundwork for this, and he inspired 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.560 a lot of other people through Owenism, both in the 0:04:57.640 --> 0:04:58.880 United States and the UK. 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.240 Yeah, sure, sure. I don't know if they were using 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:03.240 the S word back then. 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:05.719 I don't know how much we're going to use the 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.760 S word, but it's impossible to, I think, not use 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.599 the word socialism at some point when talking about at 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.480 least some of these early ideas, because they were very 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:19.000 much sort of socialist ideas of let's take like you said, 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.640 let's take care of everyone, let's have all boats rise 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.920 and everyone chip in, sort of in a hippie commune 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:26.360 kind of way. 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.080 Initially, Yeah, and I was I was thinking about that. 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:33.800 I read something that was basically like, this is socialism 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:37.160 in its purest form. It's not like a planned central 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.880 government or planned society. It's more just like, hey, let's 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.000 all take care of each other, let's all contribute, let's 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:46.240 all benefit. That's about the extent of it. And I 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:48.279 was thinking about socialism too, the way that you just 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.880 basically danced around it like we do in the United 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.599 States here. If you're trying to explain something to somebody 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.200 that has like socialist tinge to hers, socialist in nature. 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.839 Look you can't, yeah, exactly, like you can't use that word. 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.600 And it occurred to me that like it's just basically approached, 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.400 like it's a brand. You got socialism, you got capitalism, right, 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.200 and when you if you buy into socialism, it's like 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:16.120 you're buying a kit, and here's your socialist society, right, Like, 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.320 like you can't just kind of pick and choose what 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:21.440 makes sense, and you don't have to go all socialism. 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.760 You don't have to go all capitalism. You can take 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.000 the best of everything and put it together if you 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:26.480 want to. 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:27.600 Yeah, you know. 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:32.440 Yeah, here's your socialist get here's here's mediocre everything. Just 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.400 open it up and enjoy your mediocre life with mediocre things, 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:40.600 because nothing is awesome because capitalists aren't in charge of 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.400 making things perfect or great. Right, all right, So we 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.360 talked briefly about Robert Owen with this short lived sort 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.080 of hippie commune and New Harmony, and you mentioned that 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:55.880 that inspired people and at least uh, you know, overseas 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.880 and you know in England and here in America, but 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.840 their real cooperative. A lot of people talk about the 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:08.480 Rochdale Pioneers, which is near Manchester, Roachdale is, and they 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:09.640 were flannel makers. 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:11.360 They wove flannel. 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:13.920 It was a big seed of flannel manufacturing for like 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:19.240 hundreds of years. And they started staging the workers there, 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:23.560 started staging strikes kind of when industrialization hit, because you 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.320 mentioned that the beginnings of co ops were kind of 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.960 lockstep with the beginnings of the industrial revolution. 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.440 Yes, for sure, because there was this idea that like, okay, 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:39.040 you like, you don't have to submit yourself to wage labor. 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.800 Your work is valuable. You should own your own work 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:44.720 and lease it out as you see fit. That was 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.640 kind of the way that they were thinking. And so 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.160 the weavers ended up forming I think sixty of them 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:55.400 got together and formed the Rochdale Friendly Cooperative Society. And 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.200 I'm sure, just based on experience, we're mispronouncing. It's probably 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:06.280 like Rideau right in the UK, but it's spelled Rochdal. Yeah. 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:08.720 And it was a retail store, right. It was basically 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:10.520 you could get flour and butter and all this stuff. 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.880 And this is where the basis of cooperatives come from. 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:18.040 This is the first co op store that existed in 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.000 the world. And the whole idea was you got all 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.320 these people who make this stuff coming together selling it, 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.080 dividing the fruits of their labor up evenly, and then 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.680 taking the profits and like reinvesting it and making this 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:34.400 business better. But rather than one rich person, you have 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.839 a bunch of non rich people who can conceivably come 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:40.880 up with the same amount of money as a rich person. 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.000 And if you do that, all of a sudden, you 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.839 own the factory and it's just divided equally among all 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.080 the people who put in for it and are working 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.160 for it. That's where that's the basis of all co ops. 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:56.199 Yeah, this one, the Friendly Cooperative Society didn't last long. 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.199 That store was just a couple of years. I think 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.120 it was eighteen thirty when it opened. And about fourteen 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:06.080 years later they got together and they tried it again. 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.839 There were some people from that original society. They got 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.120 together with other people who were you know, unemployed or 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:18.000 facing poverty or hungry. So some of those owenites and 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.240 they said, hey, let's let's give this another go. And 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:25.040 this time it was called the Ruschdale Society of Equitable Pioneers. 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.120 And they had to And you'll see that. 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.120 This is kind of a it's not always because all 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.800 co ops, you know, operate in their own way, but 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:36.320 they had to pay to be a part of it, 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:38.840 so everybody chips in a little bit of money. In 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.840 this case for the Society of Equable Pioneers, it was 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:47.320 just one pound each. And they got it going and said, hey, 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:48.760 we're going to do the kind of the same thing. 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:50.160 We're going to have like a kind of like a 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.000 general store basically, and we'll use the profits from that 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:57.200 to build housing for people who are members of the 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.719 co op, and we can buy up some land and 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:01.640 if you're not, if you are a co op member 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.080 and you're not working, you could like farm there and 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:05.440 grow crops for everybody. 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:07.600 And it was very much in that Owenite model. 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.080 Yeah, so they went from just being a co op 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.720 store to trying to get a whole utopian community formed, 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.560 and again that didn't go very far. I don't know 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.920 that there is any utopian community that's still around today. 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.800 They don't seem to last very long. Maybe there's no 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:29.160 such thing as utopia. Yeah, but that store model became 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.680 like just what all co ops were based on after that, 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:39.680 and in fact, the Rochdale Pioneers Cooperative store mushroomed into 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:44.480 what's now called today the Cooperative Group, which is a 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:50.480 multi billion pound operation. A bunch of different co ops 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.560 and a bunch of different sectors that are all part 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.200 of this larger co op. The Cooperative Group in the 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.960 UK that it grew from the Rochdale Pioneers, not like 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.800 inspired from it. I believe it actually grew from that, actually. 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.520 I think so, yeah group, Yeah, yeah, And you know, 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:08.600 you'll see that as a common thing too. Where the 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:10.560 largest co ops in the world, and we'll talk about 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:14.920 some later on in Spain and India are groups of 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.120 co ops that have formed larger co ops because the 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.439 whole idea is that you know, there's a lot more 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.080 you can get done with a lot more people, obviously. 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.240 Yeah, or a lot more companies. Like the different companies 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.720 can stand in for different individual workers, you know, I 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:28.480 think it's neat. 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.560 So in the United States, it was really post Civil 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:36.839 War when things started to boom, and in particular Black 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.960 Americans after the Civil War were the ones who kind 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:43.160 of got this idea going because they were obviously, you know, 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.080 post Civil War, having a hard time with wide owned 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:51.000 businesses being treated poorly obviously, and they're like, well, why 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.600 don't we get our own thing going? And one of 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.040 the places that one of the earlier ones started in 0:11:56.080 --> 0:12:00.280 Baltimore when black trade unionists, they were led by a 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.720 guy named Isaac Myers, founded what was called the Colored 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.199 Calkers Trade Union Society. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.959 Yeah. Calkers were the people who worked in shipyards that 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.120 waterproof the ships, make sure they didn't leak, right, And 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:18.160 it was traditionally a black dominated profession, but black people 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.240 were starting to get edged out in shipyards. So this 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.560 Colored Calkers Trade Union Society just decided to buy a 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:29.560 shipyard themselves so that they could employ black calkers, and 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:34.040 they did exactly that. They also bought railways and just 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:39.200 started founding this huge, essentially cooperative empire of black workers 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:41.360 and artisans. Yeah. 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.439 I think they're also the ones who coined the contractors 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:46.720 term calk and paint will make it what it ain't. 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:49.080 I've not heard that one. 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:50.360 Have you never heard that? 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:52.000 No? Did you make it up? 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.240 Oh? No, no, No, that's really Yeah. 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.480 There's two contractor terms that basically mean you're getting kind 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.360 of shoddy work, right, calkin pain, I'll make it what 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.720 it ain't. And my favorite one, which is I can't 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:05.640 see it from my house. 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:08.440 Oh that's an app for that one. 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:09.720 That one really stings. 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.640 Yeah, it especially when they're talking about your work. 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:14.520 Yeah, exactly. 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:19.800 Well at any rate, Yes, the Caukers did come up 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:25.880 with that. I believe that's right. So your initial statement, Yeah. 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.480 Things got going on a larger scale after that when 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.000 farmers started banding together, and in this case, post Civil War, 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:35.560 black farmers were excluded from the Southern Farmers Alliance and 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:39.319 they formed the Colored Farmers National Alliance and Cooperative Society, 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.040 which had a million members or more by eighteen ninety one. 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:46.599 And this wasn't sort of a strict, you know, definition 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.280 of a co op. It was more like, hey, we're 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.800 all farmers, so let's all sort of just cooperate with 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:57.120 one another and share information and you know, lift each 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:57.600 other up. 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.240 Yeah. And because they were dealing with the Jim Crow South, 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.920 post Civil War South and all of that, they were 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.800 basically faced with an option like just submit yourself to 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.880 like really bad treatment, or figure out how to come together. 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.800 You don't have to know about co ops throughout history 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.559 to come up with your own co op. It's actually 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:20.960 like a general idea that any group would stumble upon, 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.200 typically when they're being mistreated or when they don't have 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:28.800 the resources to improve their lives. They realize like, well, 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:30.720 wait a minute, we're in the same boat. Let's just 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.640 put our resources together and improve our lives that way together. 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.640 Yeah, and this was like, this is spreading as a 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.680 philosophy more so than like all these like concrete examples 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:43.400 of like literal co ops that would come a little 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.640 bit later. But one of those other sort of ideas 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.520 that was spreading mixed in with this was something called 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.680 labor republicanism, and that was just you know, aligning with 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.640 this sort of the idea that hey, you know, if 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:58.640 you want real freedom, then you need to be able 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.400 to control your work and just be a wage laborer. 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:05.360 Right, You own that work, That's what I was talking 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.840 about earlier. You own that work, you lease it out 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.560 as you see fit. You're not submitting yourself to wage slavery. Like, 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.680 that's what that's all about. Apparently there's a debate going 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:19.280 on still today between labor republicanism and just universal basic income, 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.160 which one is actually the way to actual freedom from 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.240 being dominated by some boss. 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:26.280 Yeah, for sure. 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.320 It's also tied into the rise of unions and unionism 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:31.240 for sure, don't you think. 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.840 Yeah, there's the Knights of Labor, which was basically the 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.240 first massive union in the United States that came close 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:42.240 to a million members by the eighteen eighties. Their whole 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:48.880 thing was essentially setting up worker cooperatives, like creating an 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.800 economy in the United States based around co ops, collectives, 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.800 things like labor republicanism. That's exactly what they were about. 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.200 And they were pretty successful to an extent. I think 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.080 we can see today that they weren't actually successful at all, 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.040 and instead they were supplanted by a much more business 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:12.000 friendly union, the American Federation of Labor, which became even 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:12.800 more massive. 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.720 Yeah, and that was less like hey, let's you know, 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.160 get rid of these bosses and make a co op, 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.360 and it was like, let's try and find a way 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:25.160 to work with them, and you know, and true union 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.800 style like get fair pay and all that kind of stuff, 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.560 which is great, but just sort of strayed from that 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:34.000 co op idea a little bit more. And I think 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:38.080 in eighteen ninety five was when finally the International Cooperative 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:39.480 Alliance was formed. 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.160 Sure, and that was you know. 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.680 These are this is like a worldwide organization, obviously international. 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:51.120 Sure, what if they were just based in Topeka with 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.960 none but they're shooting for the sky. 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:56.280 Yeah, that'd be fun. 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:58.640 You want to take a break, Yeah. 0:16:58.440 --> 0:16:59.920 We'll take a break and we'll talk a little bit 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.240 sort of how these things work right after this. 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:23.160 All right, we're back to talk. 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:25.920 Who helped this is Libby, I think, and she called 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:31.000 this section nuts and bolts because that's exactly what it is. 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:28.800 Sure. 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.720 These are all sort of listed under the Roachdale Principles 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:39.200 of Cooperation, which the ICA, the International Cooperative Alliance, adopted 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:43.879 in nineteen ninety five. And it's a series of bullet 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:47.800 points basically of generally how co ops can work. But 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:51.000 like I said, they're all they all have their own nuances. 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:56.680 But the first one is probably true across all cases. 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.800 You have a membership that is voluntary and anyone can 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.000 join as long as they fit the bill, like you 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:03.840 can't discriminate. 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.879 Yeah, there are some slight differences among co ops that 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.120 as these bullet points start to spread out, that one 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:14.800 seems to be like that's the that's a common universality, 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.159 you know. Yeah, there's also another one. They need to 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.240 be run democratically with one vote per member. 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:21.880 Mm hmm. 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.639 There's another way to do it that some co ops 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.359 choose where the more shares you have, the more votes 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.320 you have, so one share equals one vote rather than 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.440 one worker equals one vote. So one worker can amass 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.280 ten shares and they'll have ten votes opposed to the 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.280 other workers who just have one share each for sure. 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:44.200 And that capital that you have is also controlled democratically 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:49.080 and should serve the organization's goals and not just you know, 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:50.760 the CEO or whatever. 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.479 Right, Like, if you're if your honeymakers, you wouldn't want 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.919 to use your profits to invest in like an up 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:01.840 and coming b extermination out of it? It makes sense. Yeah, 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.440 you also want to be autonomous. I love this one too, 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.640 Like it doesn't matter who you sign a contract with, 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:11.439 whether it's a government contractor with another business, a corporate 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.960 vulture who cares, there's nothing in that contract that can 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:21.240 basically undermine any of this. The worker's democratic voice, the 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:26.560 sharing of profits, being open to all, nothing can undermine that. 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.000 And I love that one because they're autonomous. They're like, 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:29.639 we don't need you. 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:31.040 Yeah, that's great. 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:33.000 Another thing that you have to do is you got 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:34.920 to train up your folks, got to coach them up 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.040 so they can all be contributors. And then you know, 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.320 another part of that is just letting people know what's 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:45.399 going on that you're you're not some weird fringe group. 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.800 But educate the people on what sort of the benefits 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:50.280 of cooperative. 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:53.880 Work, right, and then they're like all co ops smell 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:58.240 like this. Yeah, and then you want to work with 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.159 other cooperatives. That's a big one. I mean supporting one 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.880 another because it even in societies where they really support 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:10.200 co ops there they still have the decks stacked against them. 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.280 So the more they can rely on other co ops 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:14.760 on each other, the better off each co op is. 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.359 Going to be you know, yeah for sure. And they 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:18.680 always give back to the community. 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:22.040 It seems like, you know, that's part of getting the 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.400 word out is doing like good work in the community. 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:26.639 And so they so people see like, oh, this is 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.480 that co op that's doing you know, the park cleanup 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:31.400 or you know, any anything sort of like that. 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:33.560 And here's the deal. 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:34.960 You know, we said, there's a lot of different ways 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:38.240 you can structure these not you know, if you see 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.399 there's a co op, it doesn't mean every single person 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.399 that's working there that day is a member owner because 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:45.800 a lot of times you have to kind of prove 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:47.720 you're in it for the long haul, like there's a 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:52.600 probationary period. Sometimes you have to buy into it financially, 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:58.600 but not always. And also sometimes you either you're either 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:03.040 buying in financially and or being voted in by existing members. 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.160 Yes, by Biff, that's right. 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.440 And sort of the final thing is how it works 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.720 the structure at the top, because you know, even though 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:14.640 it's a co op, you still need to have kind 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:18.080 of people near the top in charge of the higher 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.080 you know, upper management sort of decisions, especially if they're 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.440 you know, larger co ops, because you know, you can 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:26.840 have some smaller co ops that are a little more 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.639 like you know, probably like Sevenonda, where you have workers 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.760 that are voting directly on just about everything that. 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:33.640 Happens with a co op. 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.120