1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you 4 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 2: should know. And it turns out that this is the 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: stuff you should know about worker cooperatives, but you might 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 2: be more familiar with as co ops, not coops. That's 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: why they put the hyphen in there, because it can 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: get pretty confusing. 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 3: In fact, I went back when I titled this episode 11 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 3: for Jerry and added that hyphen because Jerry would say, 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 3: what is this think about coops? 13 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: Yep, yep, And I'm sure Aaron Cooper's like, oh, but 14 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: don't get your hopes up, Aaron, We're not talking about you. Wait, 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 2: we just did it. Spinally happened. So Chuck, just let 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: me lay the scene here for a second. Okay, Because 17 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: co ops, especially for those of us in the United States, 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: they are like I can think of one, and that 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: is in Atlanta, and it is called Sevenanda, and it 20 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 2: is one of the few vegetarian grocery stores in the 21 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 2: entire country. That's my experience with a co op, right. 22 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Sevenonda legendary store. 23 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,839 Speaker 2: It is, and it's great. A great, great grocery store. 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 2: So they're kind of like this almost like fringe thing, 25 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 2: especially in the US, and you know basically everywhere they're 26 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: not really mainstream. But there was a time where there 27 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 2: are people who are like, this is the way to go, 28 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: this is how industry should develop. And it all just 29 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: like most things that have to do with labor and capital, 30 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: stemmed from the industrial revolution and it was a path 31 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 2: that people that we could have taken, and we so 32 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: took the capitalist route that it's we don't even question 33 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: the idea that people with money buy a mill and 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: all the equipment, and they hire you and put you 35 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: to work, and in return for your work, they give 36 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: you a wage and they manage things and they say 37 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 2: go do this, do that faster, stop doing that, and 38 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: do this instead. And again we just don't even question 39 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: it because it's so normal. But there's an alternative worker 40 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: cooperatives that it's just a different way of doing things, 41 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: and the idea that it could have been the way 42 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: things win is really surprising and interesting. 43 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, well you forgot the last part of that little descriptor, 44 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 3: which is they get the money the profit from that 45 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 3: said business because they're the owners. 46 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, and we don't really question that, 47 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: although that's a little more easily questioned, you know. 48 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know that pushed co ops now in 49 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 3: the United States to this fringe area where you might 50 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 3: have a you know, you kind of look at them 51 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 3: as or at least I do, as like these little 52 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: hippie operations, sure like Sevenanda, like this little vegetarian grocery 53 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,679 Speaker 3: store that has been in little five Points since I mean, 54 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 3: it's got to be since the seventies, don't. 55 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: You think it sure seems that way. 56 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I. 57 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 3: Mean some of the stuff on the shelves looks like 58 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 3: it's been there since the seventies. 59 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: For sure. It's definitely got that well lived in feel 60 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: for sure. 61 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great, but that yeah, it's a fringe thing 62 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 3: for the United States. And I guess we could go 63 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 3: back in time a little bit and talk about where 64 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: these were this idea was. 65 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: Sort of born. And I know we've talked about Owenism before, 66 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: haven't we. 67 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: I don't know if we've talked about Owenism, but we've 68 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: definitely talked about the Chartists. But I mean, we've talked 69 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: about so many utopian societies from the nineteenth century who 70 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: can keep track. 71 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess you're right, or maybe I'm thinking of 72 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 3: I don't know, one of those other ones. But yeah, 73 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 3: this was a utopian sort of philosophy. Owenism named after 74 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 3: a guy named Owen, Robert Owen. He was a Welsh 75 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 3: mill owner and he had this vision that you were 76 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 3: kind of talking about, like, hey, it's it's early on, 77 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 3: it's in eighteen twenty five, and there's a way forward 78 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 3: that could be great for everyone. He tried this out 79 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 3: in New Harmony, Indiana, like I said, in eighteen twenty five, 80 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 3: for the first time. 81 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't really live very long. New Harmony, Indiana 82 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: is still there. It's not a utopian society any long ago, 83 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: though it looks like a nice town based on its website. 84 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 2: But his whole idea was like what happens if everybody 85 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: kind of takes care of everybody else in this again mill. 86 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: I think he was a mill owner to where like 87 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: your children are schooled and fed, and you have opportunities 88 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: for education outside of your work, and he found that 89 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: productivity goes through the roof in those situations. So that 90 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 2: was it wasn't like this is the first worker cooperative. Yeah, 91 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,799 Speaker 2: he helped lay the groundwork for this, and he inspired 92 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: a lot of other people through Owenism, both in the 93 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 2: United States and the UK. 94 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, sure. I don't know if they were using 95 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: the S word back then. 96 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 3: I don't know how much we're going to use the 97 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 3: S word, but it's impossible to, I think, not use 98 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 3: the word socialism at some point when talking about at 99 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 3: least some of these early ideas, because they were very 100 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 3: much sort of socialist ideas of let's take like you said, 101 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 3: let's take care of everyone, let's have all boats rise 102 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: and everyone chip in, sort of in a hippie commune 103 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 3: kind of way. 104 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: Initially, Yeah, and I was I was thinking about that. 105 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 2: I read something that was basically like, this is socialism 106 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: in its purest form. It's not like a planned central 107 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: government or planned society. It's more just like, hey, let's 108 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: all take care of each other, let's all contribute, let's 109 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: all benefit. That's about the extent of it. And I 110 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: was thinking about socialism too, the way that you just 111 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: basically danced around it like we do in the United 112 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 2: States here. If you're trying to explain something to somebody 113 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: that has like socialist tinge to hers, socialist in nature. 114 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 2: Look you can't, yeah, exactly, like you can't use that word. 115 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: And it occurred to me that like it's just basically approached, 116 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: like it's a brand. You got socialism, you got capitalism, right, 117 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: and when you if you buy into socialism, it's like 118 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: you're buying a kit, and here's your socialist society, right, Like, 119 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: like you can't just kind of pick and choose what 120 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: makes sense, and you don't have to go all socialism. 121 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 2: You don't have to go all capitalism. You can take 122 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 2: the best of everything and put it together if you 123 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 2: want to. 124 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. 125 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, here's your socialist get here's here's mediocre everything. Just 126 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 3: open it up and enjoy your mediocre life with mediocre things, 127 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 3: because nothing is awesome because capitalists aren't in charge of 128 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: making things perfect or great. Right, all right, So we 129 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 3: talked briefly about Robert Owen with this short lived sort 130 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 3: of hippie commune and New Harmony, and you mentioned that 131 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 3: that inspired people and at least uh, you know, overseas 132 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 3: and you know in England and here in America, but 133 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 3: their real cooperative. A lot of people talk about the 134 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 3: Rochdale Pioneers, which is near Manchester, Roachdale is, and they 135 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 3: were flannel makers. 136 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: They wove flannel. 137 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 3: It was a big seed of flannel manufacturing for like 138 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 3: hundreds of years. And they started staging the workers there, 139 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 3: started staging strikes kind of when industrialization hit, because you 140 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 3: mentioned that the beginnings of co ops were kind of 141 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 3: lockstep with the beginnings of the industrial revolution. 142 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: Yes, for sure, because there was this idea that like, okay, 143 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 2: you like, you don't have to submit yourself to wage labor. 144 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: Your work is valuable. You should own your own work 145 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: and lease it out as you see fit. That was 146 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: kind of the way that they were thinking. And so 147 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: the weavers ended up forming I think sixty of them 148 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 2: got together and formed the Rochdale Friendly Cooperative Society. And 149 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: I'm sure, just based on experience, we're mispronouncing. It's probably 150 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: like Rideau right in the UK, but it's spelled Rochdal. Yeah. 151 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: And it was a retail store, right. It was basically 152 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: you could get flour and butter and all this stuff. 153 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: And this is where the basis of cooperatives come from. 154 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: This is the first co op store that existed in 155 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: the world. And the whole idea was you got all 156 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: these people who make this stuff coming together selling it, 157 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: dividing the fruits of their labor up evenly, and then 158 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: taking the profits and like reinvesting it and making this 159 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: business better. But rather than one rich person, you have 160 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 2: a bunch of non rich people who can conceivably come 161 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: up with the same amount of money as a rich person. 162 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: And if you do that, all of a sudden, you 163 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 2: own the factory and it's just divided equally among all 164 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 2: the people who put in for it and are working 165 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: for it. That's where that's the basis of all co ops. 166 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, this one, the Friendly Cooperative Society didn't last long. 167 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 3: That store was just a couple of years. I think 168 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 3: it was eighteen thirty when it opened. And about fourteen 169 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 3: years later they got together and they tried it again. 170 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 3: There were some people from that original society. They got 171 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 3: together with other people who were you know, unemployed or 172 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 3: facing poverty or hungry. So some of those owenites and 173 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 3: they said, hey, let's let's give this another go. And 174 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: this time it was called the Ruschdale Society of Equitable Pioneers. 175 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: And they had to And you'll see that. 176 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: This is kind of a it's not always because all 177 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 3: co ops, you know, operate in their own way, but 178 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 3: they had to pay to be a part of it, 179 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 3: so everybody chips in a little bit of money. In 180 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 3: this case for the Society of Equable Pioneers, it was 181 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 3: just one pound each. And they got it going and said, hey, 182 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 3: we're going to do the kind of the same thing. 183 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: We're going to have like a kind of like a 184 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 3: general store basically, and we'll use the profits from that 185 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 3: to build housing for people who are members of the 186 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 3: co op, and we can buy up some land and 187 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: if you're not, if you are a co op member 188 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 3: and you're not working, you could like farm there and 189 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 3: grow crops for everybody. 190 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: And it was very much in that Owenite model. 191 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they went from just being a co op 192 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: store to trying to get a whole utopian community formed, 193 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 2: and again that didn't go very far. I don't know 194 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: that there is any utopian community that's still around today. 195 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: They don't seem to last very long. Maybe there's no 196 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: such thing as utopia. Yeah, but that store model became 197 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 2: like just what all co ops were based on after that, 198 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 2: and in fact, the Rochdale Pioneers Cooperative store mushroomed into 199 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: what's now called today the Cooperative Group, which is a 200 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 2: multi billion pound operation. A bunch of different co ops 201 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 2: and a bunch of different sectors that are all part 202 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 2: of this larger co op. The Cooperative Group in the 203 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: UK that it grew from the Rochdale Pioneers, not like 204 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 2: inspired from it. I believe it actually grew from that, actually. 205 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 3: I think so, yeah group, Yeah, yeah, And you know, 206 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 3: you'll see that as a common thing too. Where the 207 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 3: largest co ops in the world, and we'll talk about 208 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 3: some later on in Spain and India are groups of 209 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 3: co ops that have formed larger co ops because the 210 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 3: whole idea is that you know, there's a lot more 211 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 3: you can get done with a lot more people, obviously. 212 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, or a lot more companies. Like the different companies 213 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: can stand in for different individual workers, you know, I 214 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: think it's neat. 215 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 3: So in the United States, it was really post Civil 216 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 3: War when things started to boom, and in particular Black 217 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 3: Americans after the Civil War were the ones who kind 218 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 3: of got this idea going because they were obviously, you know, 219 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 3: post Civil War, having a hard time with wide owned 220 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: businesses being treated poorly obviously, and they're like, well, why 221 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 3: don't we get our own thing going? And one of 222 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 3: the places that one of the earlier ones started in 223 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: Baltimore when black trade unionists, they were led by a 224 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 3: guy named Isaac Myers, founded what was called the Colored 225 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 3: Calkers Trade Union Society. 226 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 2: Yeah. Calkers were the people who worked in shipyards that 227 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: waterproof the ships, make sure they didn't leak, right, And 228 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: it was traditionally a black dominated profession, but black people 229 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: were starting to get edged out in shipyards. So this 230 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 2: Colored Calkers Trade Union Society just decided to buy a 231 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: shipyard themselves so that they could employ black calkers, and 232 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: they did exactly that. They also bought railways and just 233 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: started founding this huge, essentially cooperative empire of black workers 234 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: and artisans. Yeah. 235 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 3: I think they're also the ones who coined the contractors 236 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 3: term calk and paint will make it what it ain't. 237 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 2: I've not heard that one. 238 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: Have you never heard that? 239 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: No? Did you make it up? 240 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: Oh? No, no, No, that's really Yeah. 241 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 3: There's two contractor terms that basically mean you're getting kind 242 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 3: of shoddy work, right, calkin pain, I'll make it what 243 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 3: it ain't. And my favorite one, which is I can't 244 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: see it from my house. 245 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 2: Oh that's an app for that one. 246 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: That one really stings. 247 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it especially when they're talking about your work. 248 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 249 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: Well at any rate, Yes, the Caukers did come up 250 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: with that. I believe that's right. So your initial statement, Yeah. 251 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 3: Things got going on a larger scale after that when 252 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 3: farmers started banding together, and in this case, post Civil War, 253 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 3: black farmers were excluded from the Southern Farmers Alliance and 254 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 3: they formed the Colored Farmers National Alliance and Cooperative Society, 255 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 3: which had a million members or more by eighteen ninety one. 256 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,599 Speaker 3: And this wasn't sort of a strict, you know, definition 257 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 3: of a co op. It was more like, hey, we're 258 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 3: all farmers, so let's all sort of just cooperate with 259 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 3: one another and share information and you know, lift each 260 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: other up. 261 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. And because they were dealing with the Jim Crow South, 262 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: post Civil War South and all of that, they were 263 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 2: basically faced with an option like just submit yourself to 264 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: like really bad treatment, or figure out how to come together. 265 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: You don't have to know about co ops throughout history 266 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 2: to come up with your own co op. It's actually 267 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: like a general idea that any group would stumble upon, 268 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: typically when they're being mistreated or when they don't have 269 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: the resources to improve their lives. They realize like, well, 270 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 2: wait a minute, we're in the same boat. Let's just 271 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: put our resources together and improve our lives that way together. 272 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and this was like, this is spreading as a 273 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 3: philosophy more so than like all these like concrete examples 274 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 3: of like literal co ops that would come a little 275 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 3: bit later. But one of those other sort of ideas 276 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: that was spreading mixed in with this was something called 277 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: labor republicanism, and that was just you know, aligning with 278 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: this sort of the idea that hey, you know, if 279 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 3: you want real freedom, then you need to be able 280 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 3: to control your work and just be a wage laborer. 281 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: Right, You own that work, That's what I was talking 282 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: about earlier. You own that work, you lease it out 283 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: as you see fit. You're not submitting yourself to wage slavery. Like, 284 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: that's what that's all about. Apparently there's a debate going 285 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: on still today between labor republicanism and just universal basic income, 286 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 2: which one is actually the way to actual freedom from 287 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: being dominated by some boss. 288 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. 289 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 3: It's also tied into the rise of unions and unionism 290 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 3: for sure, don't you think. 291 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the Knights of Labor, which was basically the 292 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: first massive union in the United States that came close 293 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: to a million members by the eighteen eighties. Their whole 294 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 2: thing was essentially setting up worker cooperatives, like creating an 295 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: economy in the United States based around co ops, collectives, 296 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: things like labor republicanism. That's exactly what they were about. 297 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 2: And they were pretty successful to an extent. I think 298 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: we can see today that they weren't actually successful at all, 299 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: and instead they were supplanted by a much more business 300 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: friendly union, the American Federation of Labor, which became even 301 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: more massive. 302 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was less like hey, let's you know, 303 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 3: get rid of these bosses and make a co op, 304 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 3: and it was like, let's try and find a way 305 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 3: to work with them, and you know, and true union 306 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 3: style like get fair pay and all that kind of stuff, 307 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 3: which is great, but just sort of strayed from that 308 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 3: co op idea a little bit more. And I think 309 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 3: in eighteen ninety five was when finally the International Cooperative 310 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: Alliance was formed. 311 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: Sure, and that was you know. 312 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 3: These are this is like a worldwide organization, obviously international. 313 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 2: Sure, what if they were just based in Topeka with 314 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: none but they're shooting for the sky. 315 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be fun. 316 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: You want to take a break, Yeah. 317 00:16:58,440 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 3: We'll take a break and we'll talk a little bit 318 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 3: sort of how these things work right after this. 319 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: All right, we're back to talk. 320 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 3: Who helped this is Libby, I think, and she called 321 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 3: this section nuts and bolts because that's exactly what it is. 322 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: Sure. 323 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 3: These are all sort of listed under the Roachdale Principles 324 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 3: of Cooperation, which the ICA, the International Cooperative Alliance, adopted 325 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety five. And it's a series of bullet 326 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 3: points basically of generally how co ops can work. But 327 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 3: like I said, they're all they all have their own nuances. 328 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 3: But the first one is probably true across all cases. 329 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 3: You have a membership that is voluntary and anyone can 330 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 3: join as long as they fit the bill, like you 331 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 3: can't discriminate. 332 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are some slight differences among co ops that 333 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 2: as these bullet points start to spread out, that one 334 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 2: seems to be like that's the that's a common universality, 335 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, there's also another one. They need to 336 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 2: be run democratically with one vote per member. 337 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 338 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: There's another way to do it that some co ops 339 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 2: choose where the more shares you have, the more votes 340 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: you have, so one share equals one vote rather than 341 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: one worker equals one vote. So one worker can amass 342 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 2: ten shares and they'll have ten votes opposed to the 343 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: other workers who just have one share each for sure. 344 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 3: And that capital that you have is also controlled democratically 345 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 3: and should serve the organization's goals and not just you know, 346 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 3: the CEO or whatever. 347 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 2: Right, Like, if you're if your honeymakers, you wouldn't want 348 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 2: to use your profits to invest in like an up 349 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: and coming b extermination out of it? It makes sense. Yeah, 350 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 2: you also want to be autonomous. I love this one too, 351 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 2: Like it doesn't matter who you sign a contract with, 352 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 2: whether it's a government contractor with another business, a corporate 353 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 2: vulture who cares, there's nothing in that contract that can 354 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: basically undermine any of this. The worker's democratic voice, the 355 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: sharing of profits, being open to all, nothing can undermine that. 356 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: And I love that one because they're autonomous. They're like, 357 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 2: we don't need you. 358 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great. 359 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 3: Another thing that you have to do is you got 360 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 3: to train up your folks, got to coach them up 361 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 3: so they can all be contributors. And then you know, 362 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 3: another part of that is just letting people know what's 363 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 3: going on that you're you're not some weird fringe group. 364 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 3: But educate the people on what sort of the benefits 365 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 3: of cooperative. 366 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 2: Work, right, and then they're like all co ops smell 367 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: like this. Yeah, and then you want to work with 368 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 2: other cooperatives. That's a big one. I mean supporting one 369 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 2: another because it even in societies where they really support 370 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 2: co ops there they still have the decks stacked against them. 371 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: So the more they can rely on other co ops 372 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: on each other, the better off each co op is. 373 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: Going to be you know, yeah for sure. And they 374 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: always give back to the community. 375 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 3: It seems like, you know, that's part of getting the 376 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 3: word out is doing like good work in the community. 377 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 3: And so they so people see like, oh, this is 378 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 3: that co op that's doing you know, the park cleanup 379 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 3: or you know, any anything sort of like that. 380 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: And here's the deal. 381 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 3: You know, we said, there's a lot of different ways 382 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 3: you can structure these not you know, if you see 383 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 3: there's a co op, it doesn't mean every single person 384 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 3: that's working there that day is a member owner because 385 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 3: a lot of times you have to kind of prove 386 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 3: you're in it for the long haul, like there's a 387 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 3: probationary period. Sometimes you have to buy into it financially, 388 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 3: but not always. And also sometimes you either you're either 389 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 3: buying in financially and or being voted in by existing members. 390 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 2: Yes, by Biff, that's right. 391 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 3: And sort of the final thing is how it works 392 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 3: the structure at the top, because you know, even though 393 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 3: it's a co op, you still need to have kind 394 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: of people near the top in charge of the higher 395 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 3: you know, upper management sort of decisions, especially if they're 396 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 3: you know, larger co ops, because you know, you can 397 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 3: have some smaller co ops that are a little more 398 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 3: like you know, probably like Sevenonda, where you have workers 399 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 3: that are voting directly on just about everything that. 400 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: Happens with a co op. 401 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 3: But the bigger you get, the more you might see 402 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 3: a structure where those workers aren't voting on everything directly, 403 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 3: but they're electing some of their own to sort of 404 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 3: act as the executive branch or maybe who like you know, 405 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 3: go out and hire a leadership staff or form a 406 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 3: board or something like that. But they're voting on the 407 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 3: people that do that. And you know, ideally, and I 408 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 3: think usually in most cases they're they're bringing in the 409 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 3: people that are going to want to serve the co op. Well, 410 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 3: it's not like all of a sudden they're like, oh no, 411 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 3: we got this board in there that's now taking over 412 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 3: and changing it to a more capitalist structure. 413 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: Right, We're going to bring in a young hot shot 414 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: fresh out of a private equity firm to take over. 415 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: Not a good idea. 416 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 2: And again it's like some co ops face easier goes 417 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,239 Speaker 2: of it, and depending on the country you're in, and 418 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 2: depending even on the state, it can be easier than others. 419 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: If you're in the Pacific Northwest, you can turn to 420 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: the Northwest Cooperative Development Center and Cooperative Fund of the Northeast. 421 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 2: It just keeps going and they'll essentially tell you how 422 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 2: to convert your business into a co op, which you 423 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 2: can do if you have an existing business, how to 424 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 2: start a co op from scratch, all the ins and outs, 425 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 2: that kind of thing. And again, this is highly necessary 426 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 2: to have somebody who has expertise and understanding on how 427 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 2: to navigate co op operations in the United States or 428 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 2: in other countries too. 429 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: Co op ops. 430 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, there are definitely some efforts in 431 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 3: the United States to assist people that have these ideas, 432 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 3: it's just not as robust as like in other countries. 433 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 3: And speaking of other countries, I know we talked about 434 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 3: Spain early on, and that is the home of the 435 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 3: largest and most prominent co op in the world, basically, 436 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 3: which is the I'm gonna say Mandragon. 437 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 2: That's what I would say too, not. 438 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 1: The Mandragon, even though that's way cooler. 439 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: So it is, and that's how I want to put 440 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: it too. 441 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, but the Mandragon Corporation is a collective. Again, this 442 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 3: is one of those it's a bunch of co ops 443 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 3: that got together to make a larger co op in 444 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 3: the Basque region of Spain. And it's named for the 445 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 3: town of Mandragon. 446 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 2: Yes, And it was founded by Jose Maria Rismonda Rieta. 447 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: That is quite a name, nice, believe me. I know 448 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: he is a priest or. He was a priest who 449 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,239 Speaker 2: was actually started out as a journalist writing against the 450 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: fascists against the Franco regime in the Spanish Civil War 451 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: in the thirties. After the war, he became a priest 452 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 2: and he was assigned to the town of mandra Gone 453 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 2: in nineteen forty one and he said, hey, mandra Gone, 454 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 2: we are going to go capital s word all the 455 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: way in this town. 456 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, he you know, doing good stuff, like hey, let's 457 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 3: create a medical clinic, let's get some housing going for 458 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 3: these people. What about technical schools in education to like 459 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 3: lift everybody up. And in nineteen fifty six, there were 460 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 3: five workers who had been part of this, you know, 461 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 3: planned with him, and they created a cooperative company to 462 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 3: make kerosene heaters. That's how they got their start, the 463 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 3: biggest one in the world. Started out making kerosene heaters initially. 464 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, and then it just started to grow 465 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 2: from there. They created their own pension and healthcare systems. Essentially, 466 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: every time the town faced a problem, they needed something 467 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: like funding for a new co op and they couldn't 468 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 2: get it from the outside world. They just did it themselves. 469 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 2: So each new problem, each new obstacle, saw a co 470 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: op founded to address it, and it just it just 471 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 2: kept growing and growing from there, and eventually it became 472 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: the Mandragon Corporation, which is enormous. It employs something like 473 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 2: eighty thousand people today and it's made up of again, 474 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 2: like you said, ninety five different co ops coming together 475 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 2: as a co op themselves. 476 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and how it works for them. 477 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 3: They are one of the ones that has one of 478 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 3: those probationary periods before you can become a member. And 479 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 3: once you've done that, you are a shareholder. You are 480 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 3: a worker and a shareholder in that company, and you're 481 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 3: voting on you know, all the stuff it takes to 482 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 3: run a corporation, business strategies, what kind of money people make. 483 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 3: Everyone gets an equal vote. They do have a governing council, 484 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 3: and that one because you know, it's a big, unwheeled 485 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 3: so they need they need sort of a higher up council. 486 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 3: There's a managing director and they sort of act as 487 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 3: like a CEO. But this is super awesome and kind 488 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 3: of one of the keys is the highest paid person there. 489 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 3: They have like a wage cap basically for what you 490 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 3: would call a CEO yea, and the highest paid wage 491 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 3: earner can be paid no more than six times the 492 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 3: salary of the lowest paid. If you look at a 493 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 3: regular capitalist American corporation, that number is about three hundred 494 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 3: and fifty to one rather than six to one. 495 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty impressive. They also share the co ops 496 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: profits the member owners, and they have to make difficult choices. 497 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 2: This is something that co ops are are good at 498 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 2: like this. This is why co ops are pro worker. Like. 499 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 2: If there's a hard time, an economic downturn or something 500 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 2: like that and sales are down, profits are down, most 501 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 2: capitalist companies just lay people off. They ramp up a 502 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: lot of works in like fat times, and then they 503 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: just cut them in lean times. Co Ops don't tend 504 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: to do that. Instead, they tend to all agree to 505 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: take a pay cut to spread the pain around so 506 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 2: that no one person has to take the brunt of it, 507 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: or no one group of people have to take the 508 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: brunt of it and lose their job. 509 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. 510 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 3: And they you know, they've had to change things a 511 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 3: little bit over the years. That ratio I think that 512 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 3: I said with six to one, that's an increase. It 513 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 3: used to be a three to one ratio of the 514 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 3: highest paid to the lowest paid worker. So they've had 515 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 3: to roll with the times a little bit. But six 516 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 3: to one is still way different than three hundred and 517 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 3: fifty to one for sure. 518 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: So this is the far and away the largest. There's 519 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 2: the second largest is nothing to sneeze at either the 520 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: or A lungo labor contract Cooperative Society founded in Kerala, India, 521 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: has about eighteen thousand employees and it was founded back 522 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty five while the Brits were still ruling 523 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 2: India as a colony, and some of the workers from 524 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: the lower casts I think sixteen of them got together 525 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 2: to pool their money and said, hey, we're going to 526 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 2: start repairing roads. Government give us some contracts, and that's 527 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 2: where the whole thing started. 528 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. 529 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 3: The first Prime Minister of India, Nehru was was basically 530 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 3: very much into the idea of these workers co ops 531 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 3: and farmers co ops, and you know, did a lot 532 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 3: to encourage and incentivize these popping up over there. I 533 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 3: think there are a ton of Indian cooperatives and this 534 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 3: is just the biggest one at like eighteen thousand employees. 535 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Yeah. Nehru also encouraged people to rethink their jackets. 536 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 3: Oh man, those are good looking. I can't get away 537 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 3: with those, but those are cool. 538 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 2: Okay. So that's India. I guess that's kind of second 539 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: to Spain, like we said, at least as far as 540 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 2: the largest co ops go. But Italy I would say, 541 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 2: is possibly the country that supports co ops the most. 542 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 2: On a societal level. 543 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: It seems like there's that. 544 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 3: S word streak still running through Italy to a large degree. 545 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah, yeah, So the Italian government gives financial incentives 546 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: to start and run a co op. There's laws that 547 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 2: say if you don't run a co op, you have 548 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: to give up one of your kids. They're really pro 549 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: co op. They also this is another thing too that 550 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: some co ops come out of, where a company will 551 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 2: be failing and the owners will be like, well that's 552 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: it for me, I'm ruined, and the employees will be like, well, 553 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 2: we still have some money that we can put together. 554 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: Let us buy the company from you, and the owner 555 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 2: will sell the company to the employees. And the government 556 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 2: of Italy helps facilitate this kind of thing to make 557 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 2: it more likely. And that makes so much more sense 558 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 2: than just letting a company fail. Let the workers buy 559 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 2: it if they want to and run as a co op. 560 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: Let them all over the company. 561 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a big thing that happened in Argentina, and 562 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 3: I sort of remember this in the early two thousands 563 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 3: when Argentina was having such a rough time. A lot 564 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 3: of workers were laid off in the industrial sector and 565 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 3: they were did what you were just talking about. They 566 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 3: were like, well, hey, this factory is going out of business, 567 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 3: so let's as employees get together and buy these things. 568 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 3: And it became known as the National Movement of Recovered 569 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 3: Companies and they're about four hundred of these still going strong. 570 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. What's cool about the Argentinian model too, is I 571 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 2: think they actually took over these companies. They were all 572 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: laid off and they're like, oh yeah, watch this. I 573 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: think that's pretty neat. Yeah. Mexico is well known for 574 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,719 Speaker 2: fishing cooperatives. This happens around the world, but Mexico has 575 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 2: some pretty strong ones. And one of the cool things 576 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 2: is that there's often lax enforcement of things like sustainability 577 00:30:53,680 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 2: and catch quotas among fishermen in Mexico. So these co 578 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 2: ops tend to support sustainability themselves by essentially paying attention 579 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 2: to one another and making sure everybody's acting fairly. Sustainability 580 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: just grows out of that. 581 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: So you want to take another break. 582 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I didn't see that coming. 583 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 3: All right, we'll come back right after this, and Josh, 584 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 3: we'll speak first, because that's how we do things. 585 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 2: So Chuck, it's probably not a surprise, as we've seen 586 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: compared to other countries, the United States is not exactly 587 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 2: up to speed. As far as co ops are concerned, 588 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 2: there's potentially seven to ten thousand Americans out of what 589 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 2: three hundred and sixty somethingter million who are employees and 590 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 2: co ops in the United States. That's not a very 591 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: significant number, but there are the people who are employed 592 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 2: there are happier than you will ever be in your 593 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: entire life. Yeah. 594 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: Probably. 595 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 2: So. 596 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 3: The largest one in the United States is the Cooperative 597 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 3: Home Care Associates started in the Bronx in nineteen eighty 598 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 3: five when twelve home health aids came together and said, hey, 599 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 3: there's got to be a better way, and they started 600 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 3: recruiting people and they've got Wow. Out of that seven 601 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 3: to ten thousand, two thousand of them work for the UHCA. 602 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they also typically hire women of color 603 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: and immigrants, usually low income, and train them to be 604 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 2: home health aids. And then eventually, with a one thousand 605 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,479 Speaker 2: dollars payment, you can buy in and become a worker 606 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 2: member owner. And they tend to have people have compared 607 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: this model to actually this company to other home health 608 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: aid companies, and the workers tend to have greater job satisfaction. 609 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 2: They trust management more because they're talking about themselves in 610 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 2: a lot of cases, but even the workers who aren't 611 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 2: member owners tend to have a higher trust in management. 612 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 2: And this is where people are like, I don't get it, 613 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 2: Like why would you do this? Because what you're doing 614 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 2: is creating a social good, Like, it's not just about 615 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 2: maximizing profits. And I believe Cooperative Home Care Associates is 616 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 2: a for profit company, and co ops can be for profit. 617 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 2: They don't have to be a profit. But they're proving 618 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: that you can still promote a social good. You can 619 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 2: still make society a better place and still turn a profit. 620 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 2: It's just not you know, you're not going to ever 621 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 2: set the stock market on fire. That's not the point. 622 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: The point is more to create the social good, and 623 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: that's one of the things that the Cooperative Home Care 624 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 2: Associates does. 625 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, there are some other cool examples here 626 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 3: I'm going to jump to. I know you know where 627 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 3: I'm going because Olivia included the podcast company Maximum Fun. 628 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 3: Longtime supporters of stuff you should know. Maximum Fun was 629 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 3: had a single sole owner in Jesse Thorn. Yeah, he 630 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 3: was mogul very early on. He's the guy that set 631 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 3: up Mark Marin initially in his garage with equipment and 632 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 3: was like, here's how you do podcasting. So Jesse's a 633 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 3: pioneer in the business itself. Obviously does Judge John Hodgman 634 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 3: with Our Pal and Jordan Jesse go and Bullseye with 635 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 3: Jesse Thorn a great interview show, but Maximum Fun was his. 636 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 3: He started it as a very sort of forward thinking 637 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 3: young guy. She's I don't even know how many years ago. 638 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 3: It had to be twenty ish years ago at this point. 639 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 3: And three years ago Jesse was like, you know what, 640 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 3: I don't want to run the show anymore, and I 641 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 3: think Maximum Fun could transition to a co op. We've 642 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 3: got these great employees who are heavily invested, and why 643 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 3: not see if they'll go all in. And they did, 644 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 3: and Maximum Fund became a worker own co op. 645 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is pretty cool. I mean even before that 646 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 2: he had basically transferred ownership of the individual shows to 647 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 2: the show creators and then so it was a I 648 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 2: guess kind of an easy, easyish leap into a co 649 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 2: op from there. So hats off Jesse Thorn and all 650 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 2: the peeps at Max Fun. 651 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: That's right. 652 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 2: If you happened to be up in Maine along the 653 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 2: coast and you're island hopper. I could not find exactly 654 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 2: what islands, but there is a trio of stores, the Galley, 655 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 2: VNS Variety and Burnt Cove Market, and all three of 656 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 2: them are worker owned and operated. And there it was 657 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 2: one of those situations where all three stores were being 658 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 2: sold and the owners couldn't find any buyers, and then 659 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 2: workers were like, well buy it. So now seventy people 660 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 2: off the coast of Maine are part of the Island 661 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 2: Employee Cooperative, which is again pretty cool totally. 662 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 3: I don't think Maine has many islands, so I'm surprised 663 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 3: you didn't find out what the deal was. 664 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 2: I saw that the thing was headquartered and I think Stonington, Maine, 665 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 2: but I didn't see what island that was on, and 666 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 2: who knows could be the mainland for all I know, 667 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: I'm not a up up northeaster and up easter. 668 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: A manor Yeah, across the pond, you're from away, I 669 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: think that is what they say. 670 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I cannot tell you how much murder, 671 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 2: she wrote, I've seen in my life, and I still 672 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 2: was that picked up the lingo. Oh yeah, cabin cokain. 673 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 674 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 3: I never, as you know, never saw a single episode 675 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 3: of murder. She wrote very sad about that. 676 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 2: I didn't know that, and I see you differently now. 677 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: I need to I need to check it out. I 678 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: know it's a classic. 679 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 3: By way, I think my delivery might have been so 680 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 3: dry that we're going to get Germany as landlocked emails. 681 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,919 Speaker 3: I know there are thousands of islands off of Maine, 682 00:36:58,920 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 3: by the way. 683 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 2: Oh, okay, you got me, You fooled me, Chuck. 684 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 3: We should talk just at least mention aesops or employee 685 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 3: stock ownership plans. 686 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, this isn't the same as a. 687 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 3: Co op because you're you're generally not getting like a 688 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 3: vote on things and how things run. But it's employees 689 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 3: owning the business. And our beloved Public's supermarket chain is 690 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 3: easily the largest employee owned company in the United States. 691 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 3: I think they owned about employees of Public's owned about 692 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 3: eighty percent of the company, which is a lot. 693 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like they have stock, but rather than being 694 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 2: publicly traded, you have to be in a Public's employee 695 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 2: to buy and own public stock, and pretty cool. A 696 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 2: lot of people retire pretty well to do because of 697 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 2: the public stock that they've accrued over their career and 698 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,439 Speaker 2: it is. It's great for sure. 699 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: Yeah. 700 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 3: ACE Hardware that's another kind of cool, and that's you know, 701 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 3: they're independent retailers, and I think most people know that 702 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 3: because your local ACE Hardware is is owned and operated 703 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 3: by somebody who lives there, which is kind of a 704 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 3: cool model. 705 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, try buying something at one ACE and then 706 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 2: taking it back at the other ACE. You're going to 707 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 2: be sorely disappointed, my friend? Is that true? Oh? Yeah? They? Oh, 708 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 2: I didn't know that I bought something. I should say. 709 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 2: You and me bought something at an ACE and I 710 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 2: took it to the other ACE owned by the same company, 711 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 2: and because we bought it online, they could not they 712 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 2: could not return it. 713 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: Oh interesting, I don't think I knew that. 714 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, be careful. You have to go back to 715 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 2: the same ACE. It says it like on the sign. Yeah. 716 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 2: ACE is the place and the only place. 717 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: The helpful hardware folks. 718 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 2: Isn't that? Yeah? It is? 719 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: Should we end on a few pros and cons? 720 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 2: Oh, I just real quick want to shout out a 721 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 2: couple of co ops that are nonprofits. Subvert is an 722 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 2: alternative to band camp. It's musician owned and then fair, 723 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 2: which I think is a clever use of the term. 724 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 2: It's fare. They're an alternative to like Uber and Lyft, 725 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 2: and they're co ops. Oh okay, yeah, there you go. 726 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean that's I got to check out and 727 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:04,760 Speaker 1: see affairs in Atlanta. 728 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 2: Okay, okay, I don't use Uber. 729 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 3: I use Lyft, but I've heard they're bad now too, 730 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 3: So it's I just don't even know who to get 731 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 3: rides from when I've had too much to drink anymore. 732 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. I used to do Lyft because supposedly they treated 733 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 2: their people better. And I was talking to a lift 734 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 2: driver once He's like, no, Lyft is terrible. Now Uber's 735 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 2: nice to their drivers, and it's like, wow, who can 736 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 2: keep up with this? So I guess, yeah, just take 737 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 2: fair all. 738 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: Right, I'm gonna check that out. 739 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 3: Pros and cons now, yes, all right, well we've mentioned 740 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 3: some of these along the way. But one pro is, 741 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 3: you know one we touched on, which was that ratio 742 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 3: between the highest paid worker and the lowest paid worker. 743 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 3: They're definitely you know, the co ops. You're not going 744 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 3: to see things just so out of whack in terms 745 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 3: of wage earning. 746 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 2: No, that's huge. Another one that's a pro in favor 747 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 2: of co ops, not all. All of them are pros 748 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 2: and favor of co ops. There are some cons too, 749 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,959 Speaker 2: Like you said, pros and cons. But if you work 750 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 2: for a co op the chances of you getting laid 751 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 2: off are pretty low, which you would think like, oh, okay, well, 752 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 2: does our co ops just run and work as staffed 753 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 2: by lazy people. Turns out no, because as an owner, 754 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 2: a part owner of this co op, of this company 755 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 2: that you're working for, you are a manager. So if 756 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 2: everybody's a manager, they feel emboldened and empowered to police 757 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 2: other workers. Everybody's just kind of keeping one another honest 758 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,359 Speaker 2: because they all have such a stake in this that 759 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 2: co op workers tend to actually be more productive and 760 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 2: happier and less slack than workers who are essentially just 761 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 2: wage labor. 762 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, or what do they call it? Quiet quitting? 763 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 2: Oh I hadn't heard that, but that makes sense. 764 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 765 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 3: Quiet quitting is when you're like phoning it in and 766 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 3: just doing the bare minimum to not get fired. 767 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is yeah, no good. Everybody. 768 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 3: One con is or I guess you would say it's 769 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 3: a pro for a non co op is they tend 770 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 3: to be able to move a little quicker and add 771 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 3: quicker on stuff if there's a crisis or if there's 772 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 3: anything that needs like really fast attention. They don't have 773 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 3: to sweat, you know, taking boats and asking everyone and 774 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 3: debating what they think. So that can definitely sort of 775 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 3: slow down in times of crisis if you're in a 776 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 3: co op. 777 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 2: Yes, but that said, you can make quick decisions and 778 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 2: be more agile as a traditional capitalist company, but you 779 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 2: can also make the wrong decision and go down the 780 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 2: strong road. So with a co op, because it's moving slower, 781 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 2: it's not trying to be on the fortune five hundred 782 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 2: or anything like that, they can take their time a 783 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 2: little more, and so they actually tend to outlast a 784 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 2: lot of other companies I guess compared to other startups, 785 00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 2: co ops tend to last beyond the first five years, say, 786 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 2: against a tech startup or something like that, because you 787 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 2: can take your time making decisions enough to be like 788 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 2: now now now you know. 789 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 1: Yeah for sure, and yeah, just job satisfaction. 790 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 3: And we talked about this a few times, but overall 791 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 3: people that work for co ops tend to report much 792 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,320 Speaker 3: happier lives basically when it turned in terms of their jobs. 793 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 2: That's right, I guess that's it for co ops, Chuck, 794 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 2: I think so well. We both agreed that that's it 795 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 2: for co ops, which means it's time for listener. 796 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a follow up on the West Kowloon Walled 797 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 3: City episode, which I thoroughly enjoyed personally. 798 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. 799 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 3: Hey, guys, just listen to The episode reminded me of 800 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 3: the Ponta I guess po and t or Ponti City 801 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 3: Tower and Johannesburg. Ponti City was completed in nineteen seventy 802 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 3: five and originally intended to be a luxury development for 803 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,839 Speaker 3: the city's rich white folks. However, it quickly descended into 804 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 3: decay for various reasons, and is widely regarded as becoming 805 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 3: the world's first quote vertical slum end quote By the 806 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 3: late eighties, it said that at its worst, the vast 807 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 3: central core of the building was filled with trash, including 808 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 3: human remains, all the way. 809 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 1: Up to the fifth or sixth floor. 810 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 3: When I was visiting friends in Johannesburg back in twenty thirteen, 811 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 3: I did a tour of the tower with one of 812 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 3: the residents. It's a truly astonishing building with a super 813 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 3: interesting story of grandeur and rapid descent into chaos and 814 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 3: looks to be coming back again. Ponti has been used 815 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 3: for sets of several sci fi films. Neil Blombcamp is 816 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 3: a big fan and was also the inspiration for the 817 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 3: tower setting of the questionable twenty twelve Dread reboot. 818 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:48,760 Speaker 1: Thanks for the great stuff. That is from Bobby. 819 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 3: Bobby sent in a picture from the interior of the 820 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 3: City Tower and it is indeed super sci fi and 821 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 3: interesting looking. 822 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 2: I got to check that out, man, I hadn't heard 823 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 2: of that at all. That was Bobby, Yeah, Bobby. Well, 824 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 2: thanks a lot, Bobby. That was a great email. We 825 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,800 Speaker 2: appreciate it. And if you want to be like Bobby 826 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 2: and tell us about something that we didn't know about, 827 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 2: we're always welcoming those. You can send it off to 828 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 2: Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. 829 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 830 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 831 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.