WEBVTT - The Hunt for Indictments 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.440 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to woka F Daily with 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:20.360 me your Girl, Danielle Moody recording from the home bunker, Folks, 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.880 I am very excited for this episode to welcome our 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:29.240 friend Glenn Kirshner, host of Justice Matters and MSNBC legal analysts, 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.519 back to woke F to give us. Let me tell 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:38.680 you something. This is a thorough, thorough review of where 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:44.239 Donald Trump's cases, all of his legal woes and drama stand. 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:47.920 As we prepare, I don't know. I'm not holding my breath, folks, 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:50.640 because I don't want to pass out for whether or 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.440 not Donald Trump is going to be indicted. Is it 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.520 going to come from Georgia or the Georgia white Republican 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:02.080 politicians going to fire Fannie Willis from her job because 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.560 you know, they don't want their good old buddy indicted. 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:07.560 Is it going to come from New York because the 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:12.280 Manhattan DA has called him in for an optional interview 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:14.600 before they drop an indictment. Is it going to come 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.560 from the federal government? Probably not, because Merritt Garland is 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.679 pretty much a jellyfish. So coming up next, my in 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:30.560 depth conversation with thirty year former federal prosecutor Glenn Kirshner. Folks, 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:35.319 I am very excited for the first week launch relaunch 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:40.920 of woke F to welcome back our friend, former federal prosecutor, 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.679 MSNBC legal analysts and the host of Justice Matters, Glenn Kirshner, 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:50.440 onto woke F to bring us the latest rundown on 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:54.640 all of the legal news that is plaguing Donald Trump, 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.600 that is currently plaguing Fox News, and where we stand 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:04.360 in our hunt for indictments. Glenn, It's been a while, 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:10.560 so it's wonderful to have you back. Let's start with 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:15.320 New York, where I am right now. Just recently, we 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.600 have an announcement that comes down from the Manhattan District Attorney. 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.840 Now you know all too well that I've gone hard 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:26.360 on Alvin Bragg since he came into the position as 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:31.239 District Attorney, because I thought that Sivance had things set 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:35.040 up and ready to go. Alvin Bragg comes in, pumps 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:39.640 the brakes too. High level prosecutors quit because they say 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.520 that they wanted to move forward with an indictment. Alvin 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:46.079 Bragg said, Nope, we're not ready. Now we've seen over 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:49.200 the last couple of months and about face of sorts. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.320 Talk to us about the latest news that everyone saw, 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:57.240 which is that the Manhattan District Attorney now is inviting 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.160 I use that in quotation marks Donald Trump in for 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.000 a quote unquote interview. What does this mean? Yeah, the 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:09.359 backstory of how Alvin Bragg got to this place is 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:13.760 really curious and contorted, and you know, we could engage 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.520 in some informed speculation about what the heck has gone 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:20.119 on thus far. But you know, yesterday the New York 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:24.959 Times broke a story that gives us a concrete indication 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:30.240 of where the grand jury investigation into Donald Trump's hush 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:34.960 money payments of Stormy Stormy Daniels is right now, and 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.320 it looks like it is very close to being indicted. Danielle, 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:42.680 We've both been fooled before, we've both been let down before. 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.440 But let's talk about what this reporting means. So the 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:50.520 New York Times said that Alvin Bragg's prosecutors reached out 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.720 to Donald Trump's legal team and invited him to appear 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:59.360 before the grand jury this week. What does that mean? Okay, 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.000 First of all, Donald Trump is the target of this 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:07.480 criminal investigation. He's the person that the prosecutors are intending 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:10.720 to indict. So That means they won't subpoena him, because 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.440 you don't subpoena the target of an investigation because the 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.320 subpoena is a court order. It is a compulsion order 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.240 saying you must appear and you must testify. Well, the 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.599 target of the investigation has a Fifth Amendment right against 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:29.640 self incrimination, so he or she does not have to testify. 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.120 They just plead the Fifth which is why prosecutors don't 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.840 generally subpoena the target of an investigation. But here's what 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:40.279 we do. We will invite them to come down and 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:44.280 appear before the grand jury, not require them, not compel them, 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:46.680 but what we say to them, and we deliver a 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.080 specific letter to them. I'll talk about that letter in 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.920 a minute. We say, we are inviting you to appear 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.560 before the grand jury and provide your side of the story, 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.560 because maybe the prosecutors got it wrong, maybe you didn't 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.960 commit any of these crimes. Maybe we're looking at all 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:07.440 of this evidence incorrectly. So we're inviting you to come in, 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.640 set the record straight, tell your side of the story. Now, 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:16.599 ninety eight times out of a hundred, defendants decline the invitation. 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.159 They're not going to come and lay themselves bare under 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.920 oath in the grand jury, when the only person in 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:27.960 there is the prosecutor grilling them, asking them questions. Right, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.320 every once in a while a defendant will do it 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.360 because he or she thinks they can talk their way 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.120 out of it in the grand jury. Rarely does that 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.400 work to a defendants or a target's advantage. So this 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:42.640 letter we deliver, I tell this story because I think 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:47.400 it's cute. We call this invitation letter a Maywest letter. 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:49.880 We've been calling it that for decades. Why do we 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.560 call it a may West letter? Well, people of a 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:56.680 certain age, me maybe not. You remember the movie star 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:00.800 Maywest from the thirties and the forties was the queen 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.800 of the one liners at one point in time in Hollywood. 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:08.280 Great actress, funny, and she has a number of famous lines. 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:11.640 One of her most famous lines is she's standing in 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.200 a bar with a gentleman who's in uniform. She says, yeah, 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.520 I always did like a man in uniform. Why don't 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:22.800 you come up and see me sometime. That's the famous line. Yeah, 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.839 that's a that's the famous Maywest line. So what have 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:29.640 prosecutors called this letter that we deliver inviting a defendant 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.400 to see the grand jury a Maywest letter, Why don't 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.800 you come up and see the grand jury sometime now. 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:39.760 Nobody's asking prosecutors to play comedy clubs anytime soon, but 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.480 somebody thought that was cute back in the day, so 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.799 they name it a Maywest letter. So we only deliver 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.200 that kind of a letter at the absolute tail end 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.480 of the grand jury investigation, because we wanted to develop 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.039 all of the evidence through the testimony. We wanted to 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:01.160 subpoena all the documents and business records to the grand jury. 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.440 We wanted to have it all in hand when we 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:09.400 question the target. If the target chooses to testify, as 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:13.200 I say, they generally don't, So this gives us the 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:17.160 informed opinion that they are right at the end of 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:21.040 the grand jury investigation, because inviting the target to testify 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.880 as the last thing we do, and frankly, Danielle, we 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:27.760 only do it if we know there's enough evidence to indict, 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:32.480 and this is the last base we touch. So concretely, 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:35.560 this is a pretty good indication that we could see 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.160 an indictment of Donald Trump soon, at least on the 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:41.160 hush money payments. Okay, So that's that's what I was 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.640 going to follow up with, which is this is with 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:50.360 regard to what Michael Cohen essentially became famous for what 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:55.520 he also went to jail for, right, which is using 0:07:55.760 --> 0:08:00.920 the use of campaign finance money in order to payoff 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:07.000 Stormy Daniels a high class escort in order to keep 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:12.640 her quiet. Correct. Correct. So we know that all of 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.400 this became very much reality TV when Stormy Daniels hired 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.880 her attorney, Michael Cohen then decides to flip on Donald Trump. 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:30.160 Tell us what would a trial look like? Because this 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.960 is these are criminal charges. This is separate and apart 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:39.040 from what Tish James has been doing as New York 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.360 ag This is separate and apart. Her case is a 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:46.840 civil one against the or against Trump Organization for reclamation 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.080 of you know, upwards to a quarter of a billion dollars, right, 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:56.600 So just remind us what the criminal possibility is here? 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:01.680 What excuse me, what the criminal charge would be from 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.120 the Manhattan DA. It's a great question and one that's 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:09.840 really hard to answer because we don't know what kind 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.559 of evidence was developed as a result of the prosecution 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:18.480 of the Trump Organization. The very successful prosecution convicted on 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:22.520 all counts for running a fifteen year long criminal scheme 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:26.640 to defraud in the first degree, basically a massive tax 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:31.000 fraud scheme being run by the Trump organization. And we're 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.760 still scratching our heads as to why Donald Trump wasn't 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.360 charged in that case. But what I'm confident of is 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.120 that case probably produced a whole bunch of evidence that 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.960 might be why we see Alvin Bragg having jump started 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:50.679 this other criminal case against Donald Trump. That coupled with 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.480 the fact that, remember, Congress finally got its hands on 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:57.680 Donald trump tax returns, and some of the reporting is 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:02.439 that these hush money payments we're taken as business expenses 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:07.480 on his federal taxes and estate taxes. That adds additional 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.480 crimes to the hush money payments. So when you ask 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.040 what are the charges, really hard to say. The one 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.680 obvious charge that's been kicked around a lot in the 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:22.160 media is falsifying business records because Michael Cohen ginned up 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.920 for Donald Trump a bunch of false documents making this 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.840 look like it was part of Michael Cohen's legal services, 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.959 when in fact, it was a hush money payoff to 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.360 hide deeply damaging information from the American voters. And here's 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:41.000 the thing. Falsifying business records in New York is a 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:45.520 misdemeanor unless it is done in furtherance of, or to 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:50.199 conceal other crimes. So I don't know what an indictment 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:52.960 is going to include, but I have a feeling it's 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.760 going to include several charges as a result of additional 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:01.160 evidence that has come to light since Alvin Bragg first 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.960 looked like he was killing the Trump investigation. So really 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.960 hard to predict exactly what the indictment will include, but 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:14.520 I suspect it will include more than just one or 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:18.400 two minor charges. I think he's probably going to build 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:23.120 on those hush money payment charges. So there could be 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:27.080 a possibility of multiple indictments coming down because each of 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:32.080 whatever the suspected criminal acts are would require their own indictment. 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.280 This is not it wouldn't just be one blanket A 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:39.000 great legal question, So there is a doctrine called joinder 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:43.880 and severance. Joinder means prosecutors will try to bring all 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:48.120 related charges in one indictment and try them all together, 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:53.520 But there are lots of legal niceties that dictate when 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:57.040 you can join charges together, and if the defense doesn't 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.439 want them join together, they'll file emotion to sever joinder 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.440 and severance. They'll try to break them all apart into 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.800 separate trials. So one of the things that we will 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.920 learn when we hopefully see the first indictment drop soon 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:14.080 is how many related charges has Alvin Bragg been able 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.280 to join together in one indictment, and how many might 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.200 have to come in a separate indictment because they're not 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.960 sufficiently related to the hush money payments. These are all 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:29.319 sort of fine tuned legal decisions and tactical decisions that 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:33.040 I'm sure Bragg's prosecution team is making as we speak 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:38.640 switching gears. The big breaking news at least on Earth One, 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:40.920 as I like to call it, with regard to the 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:48.040 Dominion case and against Fox News, is all of the 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:52.640 depositions that have now been made public where Fox King 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:59.600 CEO Rupert Murdoch essentially through all of his famous faces 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.760 and voices underneath the bus. We have now seen Glenn 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:10.280 a treasure trove of text messages exchanging this. This is 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:14.680 folks a defamation lawsuit that Dominion has filed in around 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.400 I think it's one point six billion dollars against Fox 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.840 News for their false um coverage. With regard to the 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:25.520 fact that Dominion had something to do with stealing the 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:30.240 election from Donald Trump in the treasure trove of text messages. 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:34.360 In Rupert Murdoch's own testimony, I guess his own his 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:38.760 own deposition under oath, he says, oh, no, we knew 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.800 that the election wasn't stolen, and oh I should have 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:47.200 done something sooner, maybe before January sixth, who knows, Um, Glenn, 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.480 I want to get your thoughts on what the public 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.360 outside of the Fox, you know, sphere, because they're not 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:59.720 covering this at all, what the public has learned, And 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:06.080 in your opinion, does Dominion have a really strong case here? 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:11.800 Dominion has an incredibly strong case. Defamation cases are often 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:16.240 difficult to prove because you have to prove actual malice. 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:20.360 You have to prove that either these anchors and executives 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.920 were recklessly disregarding the truth of what they were putting 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:29.480 on air, or even beyond that, that they were intentionally 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.520 sponsoring lies. And here's the thing, Danielle, as you say, 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.720 these text messages and emails, and then there was a 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:41.240 zoom meeting that was reported out by Peter Baker of 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.880 the New York Times, who got an got his hands 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:49.400 on a zoom recording of the Fox executives and Fox 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:54.240 anchors in the days after the election talking about how 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:59.800 they had messed up by correctly calling the election for 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:04.000 Joe Biden, right, And what I said is, you know, 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.480 that would be like a bunch of surgeons getting together 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.080 for an emergency meeting after an operation and saying, how 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.040 did we mess up by saving the patient? I mean, 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:16.000 that's kind of what Fox News was saying. We mess 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.640 up by calling the election correctly, but it hurt our 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:23.480 revenue stream, so we have to start lying about things. 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.080 This defamation suit is so strong that I think the 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:31.920 evidence has blown right past recklessness and dominion will be 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:37.480 able to fairly easily prove actual intentional lying, because, as 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.560 Rupert Murdoch said, it ain't about the blue, and it 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:44.720 ain't about the red, It's about the green. So I 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.920 think the only thing left to decide is what our 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:53.720 dominions damages in the words, how much money should Fox 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.560 be made to pay. I cannot imagine Fox will go 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.720 to trial. I have a feeling they will settle, And 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.640 the question is do they get one point six billion, 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.240 do they get more impunitive damages? Do they get less? 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.920 Because they can't prove the valuation of the damage that 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:16.720 Fox did to Dominion voting systems. But I think liability 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:18.840 is a lock and it's going to be all about 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.720 the amount of the judgment that Fox has to pay 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:27.040 to Dominion. So here I have a couple of questions, 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.480 right because I'm not a lawyer, I just play one 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:34.440 on the podcast because I started to really think about this, Glenn, 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:38.640 and I said to myself, if Dominion is able to 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:43.320 prove malicious intent, which is essentially what the Zoom called 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.720 the text messages, they knew who Sidney Powell was when 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.160 they were putting her on the air. They themselves called 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.000 her a crackpot, a Looney Tunes, and they put her 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.600 on the air to spout her conspiracy theories. One my 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.760 first question is what is the Department of Justice do 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:06.520 with this information? Knowing that had Fox News not been 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:11.600 the megaphone of Donald Trump and the Big Lie, would 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:16.000 the insurrection have gotten the legs that it had, Because 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:19.639 what you would have had and I'm not taking Donald 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:23.720 Trump's tweet and all of his lies on social media 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:30.240 off the table, I'm adding on Fox megaphone of hour 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:34.480 after hour for the election from then until January sixth, 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:38.520 ginning up the very people who would arrive at the 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.040 Capitol to then try and overthrow a free and fair election. 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.439 So what, if anything, that's my first question. Does the 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:50.879 Department of Justice do if this case is cited in 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.640 dominion's favor. Well, this is probably going to come as 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.240 no shock to you, but my opinion is the oj 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:04.120 will do exactly nothing. Now, I'm not saying that there 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:09.280 is criminal liability that could be easily proved based on 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:15.560 Fox's lies that obviously inspired violence. But I'm also not 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.760 saying that we should just throw up our hands and 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.600 say nothing we can do about it. Freedom of the press, 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.600 freedom of speech. We can't prove a connection, a direct 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:32.520 connection between Fox's lies and the violence on January sixth. 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:37.840 But here's here's what really ticks me off. I believe 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.520 that there are things the executive branch could do. I 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:46.639 believe there are regulations the FCC could enact. I believe 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:51.080 there are executive orders Joe Biden could sign in the 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:55.040 name of protecting our democracy and protecting the American people 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.879 that could begin to chip away at what we have 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.440 abdicated for years, which is that you know what Fox 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:07.440 and other phone news agencies can lie as much as 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.760 they want, sponsor as much hate speech as they want, 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.600 even when that hate speech is reasonably likely to incite 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.199 imminent violence. There's just nothing we can do about it. 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.479 You know what. That is not a satisfactory answer, because 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.760 that's the answer that's gotten us here. Let me just 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.280 add this, Danielle. Do you think the Republicans and we 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:33.400 have broad, sweeping First Amendment speech protection and First Amendment 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:37.040 freedom of the press protection. I love it, I embrace it, 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.280 I welcome it, but it can't be unlimited. Yeah. There's 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:44.960 a test called the Brandenburg test. It tests when speech 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:49.720 enjoys First Amendment protection, even hate speech, or it loses 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:55.080 First Amendment protection. And it says, basically, if speech is 0:19:55.200 --> 0:20:01.920 likely to end intended to inspire ima in lawless conduct, 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.920 it doesn't enjoy First Amendment protection. And people will say, 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.960 but you can't prove it was intended to Maybe you 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:13.120 can prove it was likely too, because that's an objective standard. 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.359 And so what we do, Danielle, is year after year 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:20.240 we see hate speech that's inciting violence and we say, oh, 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:24.600 Brandenburg tests fifty years ago, too high a bar. We 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:27.879 can never overcome it. So we do nothing. Do you 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.520 think the Republicans sit around and say, we want to 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:37.120 revoke women's constitutional privacy. But Row versus Wade, fifty year 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:41.560 old president, nothing we can do bullshit. Yet they do 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:45.800 is they pass forward leaning legislation in the States, They 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:51.399 signed bs executive orders, they promulgate regulations, and they try 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.320 to take away our rights. Donald Trump had to go 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:58.280 through four Muslim bands with executive orders before he could 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.600 push it through the courts. Why why are we not 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:04.480 doing the same thing. Why is Joe Biden not doing 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.800 the same thing for good? Signing forward leaning executive orders? 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:12.320 Trying to protect the American people. Go into court and 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:16.280 defend them, and if you lose, you go back. You'll 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:18.800 learn the lesson of the loss based on what the 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.080 court said. You rewrite it, you rechool it, and you 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.119 do it again. Donald Trump did that for evil. We 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:29.040 can do it for good. But we refuse to because 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.080 we are the ones who throw up our hands and say, 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.600 fifty year old precedent, nothing we can do. Well, you 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:37.040 know what precedent changes with the times. If it didn't, 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:39.720 we would still be living with plus e versus Ferguson. 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:43.199 Come on, folks, get off your asses and do it. 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.919 Be forward leaning, be aggressive, go into the courts. Don't 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:50.640 be afraid of the legal challenges, Embrace them. And that's 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:52.520 what we need to do on the gun on the 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.359 proliferation of guns front, That's what we need to do 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:58.359 on the hate speech inspiring violence front. We need to 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:01.679 be forward leaning. The way the Republicans are for evil, 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:05.360 we can be forward leaning for good. I'm not advocating violating, 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:09.760 and I think that everything that you're saying is one 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:11.919 hundred percent right, and all the things that we've been 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.480 screaming from the rooftop since Donald Trump came down that escalator, 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.760 since he started with this executive order, since he started 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.880 with policies that were reprehensible and enough to have Amnesty 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:25.800 International look at Americans say you know what, I think 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:29.000 that you're doing something a little wrong here, right enough 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.520 for us to be referred to as a backsliding democracy. 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:34.439 It's like you have to. If they are leaning in 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:36.880 on hate and you are not doubling down on good, 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.520 then I don't know what we're doing right. I honestly don't. 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:43.119 Because my feeling, Glenn, is that when I'm seeing this 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:46.120 dominion case unfold, and I'm saying to myself if I'm 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.800 the Department of Justice and I'm the Department the Department 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:53.040 of Civil Rights, and I'm saying, you know what, if 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:57.760 this is ruled in dominion's favor, then we have probable 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:02.880 cause to begin an investigation into Fox News and how 0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:07.600 they helped insight oh A Riot, how they helped be 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:11.000 the arm because as as all of these papers lay out, 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:14.960 it shows that Fox Fox was not there as analysts, 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:18.400 they were not there as journalists reporting what was happening. 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:22.600 They were an extension of the campaign. They were an 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:27.880 extension of the administration. Tucker Carlson is still doing it, yes, 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:33.040 with his piecemealing of the coverage the videotapes that Kevin 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:36.640 McCarthy gave him. And I said, why did Kevin McCarthy 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:41.360 Glenn still have forty thousand hours of that video footage 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:43.920 in his possession? Why was that not in the possession 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:46.280 of the Department of Justice. Well, it was in the 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.040 possession of the Capitol Police, and I guess Congress had 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:53.240 possession of it courtesy of the J six investigation. So 0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:55.840 I think once Congress has it, they have it. And 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.880 when the leadership changed hands, I used the term leadership 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:01.680 loosely when it comes to Kevin McCarthy. Come on, you 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:09.240 know he decided to use it for evil period. The 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:11.760 other thing that has been gnawing at me. And again 0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:17.399 I'm not an attorney, but if Fox is caught red 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:20.920 handed lying about the election and has to pay out 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:24.560 billions of dollars to Dominion in the end, it all, 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:28.520 if it all goes the way that justice should tell 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:32.439 me whether or not, you think that it is a 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:36.240 possibility that Fox would then be held liable in some 0:24:36.320 --> 0:24:41.000 type of way for COVID deaths and spreading the lies 0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:49.760 about COVID being a hoax, about COVID being a democratic trick, 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:53.960 and that because of their consistent lies, a quarter of 0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:58.359 the population remained unvaccinated and they contributed it to the 0:24:58.440 --> 0:25:03.280 deaths of a million. Yeah, I think civil liability if 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:10.359 they can mine Fox for discovery and get the kind 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:15.240 of evidence of intentional lies about COVID the way they 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:21.000 found about the election, I do think civil liability is 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:28.080 something that people could pursue. The challenges the element of causation, Right, 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:34.440 did Foxes lies cause or directly contribute to a particular 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:39.000 person's death. That's a tough element to prove. Now it's 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:41.879 going to be easier, somewhat easier in the civil context 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:45.000 because the standards is just a preponderance of the evidence 0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:48.520 fifty one percent more likely than not. I have actually 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:52.160 argued that Donald Trump and company have criminal liability for 0:25:52.480 --> 0:25:56.760 COVID deaths because they had a duty to protect the public. 0:25:57.240 --> 0:26:02.600 And the law of involuntary manslaw says, if you engage 0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:06.359 in a grossly negligent act or you have a duty 0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:09.560 to act and protect the public and you fail to 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:12.840 do that, and that failure is grossly negligent. We know 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:15.639 Donald Trump's failure was intentional because he lied to the 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:20.520 American people about it. And if you're grossly negligent conduct 0:26:20.920 --> 0:26:24.479 was reasonably likely to result in death or serious bodily 0:26:24.520 --> 0:26:28.680 injury to another, check And the third element is that 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:33.360 you're grossly negligent conduct thereby caused the death of another. 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:36.880 That's the sticking point, right causation. How can you Well, 0:26:36.880 --> 0:26:40.240 it's important to know that in the law, causation is 0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:44.400 defined as your conduct being a substantial factor in bringing 0:26:44.520 --> 0:26:47.000 about death, not that you killed them. Not do you 0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:50.200 shot him or strangle them, or bludgeoned them or saved them. 0:26:50.240 --> 0:26:53.560 Your conduct of lying to the American people mocking reporters 0:26:53.560 --> 0:26:57.840 when they protected themselves by wearing masks. Your conduct was 0:26:57.880 --> 0:27:03.520 a substantial factor in bringing about death. Therefore, the causation 0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:06.040 element is satisfied. I know we're doing crim law one 0:27:06.040 --> 0:27:09.919