Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters
Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The
Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I
Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl
Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story
Speaker 1: of George Remus. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer
Speaker 1: who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition.
Speaker 1: Remus is the biggest man in the business, but George
Speaker 1: Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading
Speaker 1: to betrayal, revenge, and one of the most sensational murder
Speaker 1: trials in American history. Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg
Speaker 1: King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. LA is expansive. There's nearly
Speaker 1: ten million people living here and it comes with a
Speaker 1: lot of noise. But if you tune those sounds out
Speaker 1: and listen close, you'll hear the real LA. What a
Speaker 1: be bargim I'm going to be a father? Are you
Speaker 1: feeling this? A fiction podcast? Mixtape about love? Listen to
Speaker 1: it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcast. Are you aware at any time that
Speaker 1: Jake and your dad your mom will planned to kill
Speaker 1: the road now? Was that ever disgusted? No, he said,
Speaker 1: straight up. We don't get along. He said there were
Speaker 1: times he wanted to leave, and I wondered if that
Speaker 1: was really true, and maybe he did want to leave,
Speaker 1: but he didn't do it describe your relationship Nae. I
Speaker 1: loved Anna as a baby sister. I personally was surprised
Speaker 1: that the things specifically said, were you there? Did you
Speaker 1: do anything you know about it? Any time? When did
Speaker 1: you find out that they were guilty or that they
Speaker 1: had actually participated. I never would have believed my family
Speaker 1: would be capable of doing something about magnitude. This is
Speaker 1: the pig did massacre? Returned to Pike County season four,
Speaker 1: episode twenty one, George Wagner takes the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
Speaker 1: a television producer at KAT Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and
Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner has
Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone.
Speaker 1: His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also
Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to all charges. Facing a mountain of
Speaker 1: evidence and testimony placing George Wagner the fourth at the
Speaker 1: center of the plot to kill the Rodent family, his
Speaker 1: lawyers made a surprising decision to call him to the stand.
Speaker 1: The unexpected move was described as a quote hail Mary
Speaker 1: by many trial watchers. During his testimony, George Wagner's lawyers
Speaker 1: painted him as the black sheep of the family. During
Speaker 1: the first day of his testimony, George calmly disputed nearly
Speaker 1: everything that had been said about him by other witnesses.
Speaker 1: Describing his criminal upbringing. George Wagner frequently spoke of wanting
Speaker 1: to escape from his own family. Today, it was a
Speaker 1: bombshell day, if you will, of testimony. For nine weeks,
Speaker 1: George Wagner the Fourth has sat quietly as a parade
Speaker 1: of witnesses, from police investigators to his own brother and
Speaker 1: mother picked apart his claim of innocence and ignorance. George,
Speaker 1: you love justice, microphone for him. Just keep your voice
Speaker 1: up real loud. Please stage your full name for the record.
Speaker 1: George Washington Wagner the fourth, You've been sitting in this
Speaker 1: trial for any weeks? Yes, But on the forty second
Speaker 1: day of the child wearing a white collar dress shirt,
Speaker 1: dark tie, and a gray vest, George Wagner took the
Speaker 1: stands in his own defense. His attorney began by asking
Speaker 1: George to describe the troubled environment he grew up in.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about your education first. Okay, did you
Speaker 1: ever go to a public school for a very short
Speaker 1: period of time. So how did you get your education?
Speaker 1: My mother homeschool but George Wagner's homeschooling didn't last long.
Speaker 1: By the age of fourteen, his official education was over.
Speaker 1: It was replaced by a different type of education. Why
Speaker 1: did I felt that I didn't need anymore and I
Speaker 1: just wanted to do my own thing? My father quitnessed
Speaker 1: sixth grade? And so what did you want to do?
Speaker 1: What did you do with your wife? Did you have
Speaker 1: any kids or aspiration? When I was a young kid,
Speaker 1: I wanted to be either a game warden or a forrester,
Speaker 1: And when I got older, my father pushed me more
Speaker 1: towards being a deesel mechanic and a trup driver. Why
Speaker 1: was that my father getting want nobody in a family
Speaker 1: that wore a badge? Why was that he thought all
Speaker 1: law enforcement was crooked? George Wagner said when he was young,
Speaker 1: he and his father had a great relationship and that
Speaker 1: the pair spent many days hunting and fishing together. But
Speaker 1: his father, Billy Wagner, was also responsible for George Wagner's
Speaker 1: other education. And your youth, did he teach you other things?
Speaker 1: My father taught me how to open a lock, how
Speaker 1: to steel fuel, how to steel loads or break into loads?
Speaker 1: How did he actually do it? He bought a like
Speaker 1: a lock pick set, comes with like a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of different locks and picks, and then you sit us
Speaker 1: down for hours until we can figure out how to
Speaker 1: open it. And what would would do? If anything? Would
Speaker 1: you want you learn how to do that? After my
Speaker 1: brother and I learned how to do it, he would
Speaker 1: go from like hotel to hotel in different counties and
Speaker 1: open the vending machines in him. Would he do it? Usually?
Speaker 1: You have my brother do it. My brother can open
Speaker 1: a lock in a matter of seconds. Well what about you?
Speaker 1: Three to four minutes? So your brother was a little
Speaker 1: better picking locks than yes, but your dad took both
Speaker 1: of you your round to pick one. Yes of locks?
Speaker 1: Would u padlocks? Vending machine locks was the most common
Speaker 1: door locks on trucks. Ignition, which is what would be
Speaker 1: the purpose? Um the vending machines? Yeah? He would take
Speaker 1: the coin box and the cash box out of him.
Speaker 1: And did he teach you anything else around that? Just
Speaker 1: how to break in the trailers and five back the
Speaker 1: loads and um, and with the loads you go around
Speaker 1: and take the padlock and the hinges off so you
Speaker 1: don't break the seal. It's it's the seal is broken.
Speaker 1: It's instantly. Somebody's been in it. So you got to
Speaker 1: take the inge off and open it without it. But
Speaker 1: you see what's in the trailer. If it's something you wanted,
Speaker 1: then you unloaded. If it's not, you put the handback on.
Speaker 1: No way, every knows it was opened, all right? And
Speaker 1: your brother was with you, yes, all right? And he
Speaker 1: would pick out the truck. Yes. Did he have any
Speaker 1: methods or codes or anything like that as far as
Speaker 1: how would you pick out a certain fundum? Usually it
Speaker 1: had to end up being a company truck. But Walmart
Speaker 1: was like the one he went after more than anything.
Speaker 1: And why was that he despises Walmart? I don't know why. Now,
Speaker 1: did your mother know about these activities? Yes, she was
Speaker 1: there ninety nine nine percent at the time she was
Speaker 1: in the truck. Yes, and she knew your father was teaching. Yes.
Speaker 1: Were there are other things that your father taught you
Speaker 1: around how to steal fuel fuel? Yes, so your dad
Speaker 1: taught you to steel fuel and picklocks. When you would
Speaker 1: go out with your father, would he ever teach you
Speaker 1: to look out for things or not look out for
Speaker 1: things is or anything like that. So the job was
Speaker 1: you were always supposed to make sure you could see
Speaker 1: a talk before they seeing you, or to know where
Speaker 1: every camera was, all right, So why would you explain
Speaker 1: how we touched it? It really goes active when I
Speaker 1: was a kid and he was still around in Pennsylvania
Speaker 1: a lot for every company, and my brother would see
Speaker 1: we'd get a dollar when we were a kid, all right,
Speaker 1: And that goes back to like eight years old, even
Speaker 1: before he started the theft, and how long did that?
Speaker 1: We're candle eleven. He would go around and start out
Speaker 1: with the we go down one street or something, and
Speaker 1: if we missed one that he missed and we'd lose
Speaker 1: four wheeler for a week, or if he pointed one
Speaker 1: out that we didn't see, we get four wheller taken
Speaker 1: for a week. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. The fact that
Speaker 1: George Wagner took the stand in his own defense unexpectedly.
Speaker 1: Nobody in the courtroom was anticipating him to take the
Speaker 1: stand that day, and I have to say he was
Speaker 1: very composed. He seemed very prepared. I mean, think about it.
Speaker 1: The stakes could not be higher for him, and when
Speaker 1: he describes his childhood, it's almost as though he was
Speaker 1: born into a family of con artists. You know, here
Speaker 1: he is being taught how to pick padlocks and steel
Speaker 1: fuel and steel coins from vending machines. These are crimes. Granted,
Speaker 1: they are petty crimes in nowhere equivalent to murder, but
Speaker 1: it does paint a picture of what was happening in
Speaker 1: his early days. It's possible that the defense was feeling
Speaker 1: the pressure and decided it can't hurt to have George
Speaker 1: Wagner take the stand. And I think he did a
Speaker 1: pretty good job. He does not seem emotional to me.
Speaker 1: He seems more credible than Jake and Angela Wagner. Now
Speaker 1: it might be different because Jake and Angela Wagner's stories
Speaker 1: lineup he said, she said versus he said. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's extremely prepared for this moment. You know, we might
Speaker 1: be surprised, but I imagine this is something he and
Speaker 1: his lawyers were working on for weeks and probably running
Speaker 1: through potential questions and potential answers. So for him, this
Speaker 1: is the culmination of probably a lot of practice. And
Speaker 1: remember accused killer Dad Wagner. He's very anti government anti
Speaker 1: law enforcement. We've heard many, many stories about him preparing
Speaker 1: for the end of days. So the other side of
Speaker 1: this is, you know, they live in a very rural area.
Speaker 1: In the event of a disaster, Billy Wagner wanted to
Speaker 1: make sure that their kids were prepared and could survive
Speaker 1: in any situation. That's the nice way of framing it.
Speaker 1: But the truth wis they were stealing, and they were
Speaker 1: stealing on a very high level at a very young age.
Speaker 1: If I'm the Rodent family, I'm thinking, I don't care.
Speaker 1: There's no excuse for allegedly murdering eight people. To me,
Speaker 1: you know, you got your ATV taken away as a kid.
Speaker 1: I don't know how that equates to being a part
Speaker 1: of an eight person homicide. But again, I mean this
Speaker 1: whole case. You know, we've heard a lot of things
Speaker 1: that we don't think irrelevant, and what the jury's thinking
Speaker 1: and what the judge's thinking, we can't say, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's interesting context because obviously George Wagner's attorneys are really
Speaker 1: painting a picture of a I who was considered maybe
Speaker 1: second best to his brother. Much has been made about
Speaker 1: perhaps Jake was favored by his parents and that George
Speaker 1: was always the outcast in trying to step away from
Speaker 1: the family and maybe look away from their scams and
Speaker 1: cons and just try to get out to make a
Speaker 1: better life for himself. It matters, maybe because it offers
Speaker 1: some insight into how he just has always been used
Speaker 1: to ignoring them, and maybe that's how he was able
Speaker 1: to ignore the fact that his family was commiserating to
Speaker 1: murder eight people. Or is that just wildly far fetched
Speaker 1: it's now decades later. Does that excuse you of what
Speaker 1: you're being accused of? On the other hand, it also
Speaker 1: does paint a picture of how people are potentially indocrinated
Speaker 1: into really dangerous behavior. By the time George Wagner was
Speaker 1: a teenager, he said he was growing apart from his
Speaker 1: own family and that he was growing closer to his uncle,
Speaker 1: Chris Newcomb. The two regularly went hunting and rode ATVs
Speaker 1: around the farm. Let's talk about Chris for a moment.
Speaker 1: Explain your relationship with Chris. Chris is more like a
Speaker 1: brother than me than an uncle. Why do you say
Speaker 1: that we were almost identical and everything we like and
Speaker 1: do and what type of things would you do? Gil
Speaker 1: muddon hunting, fishing, just to see how far we could
Speaker 1: go on four Wilder in a day. And would Jake
Speaker 1: be part of this in his own way? Sometimes? Yes?
Speaker 1: He was always left behind? And why was he He
Speaker 1: didn't want to get his four or his dirt mike
Speaker 1: whoever he had dirty and he'd run like two mile
Speaker 1: an hour? And how we're doing Christ? Kind of like
Speaker 1: a bad old help George Wagen said his brother Jake
Speaker 1: preferred to play video games and to play with action figures.
Speaker 1: He had hundreds of them. Every dime he got as
Speaker 1: a young kid, he spent on action figures. He would
Speaker 1: set him up on the shelf and stare at them
Speaker 1: for hours. And did you play with him as well? No,
Speaker 1: but I would go in and move them when he
Speaker 1: wasn't there, just to see if he knows it. And
Speaker 1: you could move with like a centimeter, he'd know. And
Speaker 1: did that ever cause him many Mania fights? Would you
Speaker 1: do that just to kind of double your brother? Just
Speaker 1: to antagonizing antagonizing? Did he have any particular video games
Speaker 1: he liked? Marvel Universe, Resident Evil, Left or Dead that's
Speaker 1: another one. I can't remember what it was. What other
Speaker 1: type of things would you and Chris Dowet you got
Speaker 1: old right party run girls. Wagner testified he started drinking
Speaker 1: alcohol at age thirteen and was partying regularly. Around the
Speaker 1: time he was eighteen years old, George met Frankie Rodin
Speaker 1: the pair became quick friends. Did you consider it a
Speaker 1: good friend or I can set you one of my
Speaker 1: best friends? George said his life change once he got
Speaker 1: his driver's license. He made new friends and was able
Speaker 1: to get away from his mother Angela and brother Jake.
Speaker 1: Why's it because I have freedom free and I could
Speaker 1: leave when I wanted, I hang out for my uncle
Speaker 1: or Frankie or Shnam Nathan Walls, Garrett Leaf all right?
Speaker 1: And did that cause any problems back home? On about hood?
Speaker 1: My mom was never happy about it. She always said
Speaker 1: that I was leaving my brother to do all the
Speaker 1: work and I needed to be more like him to
Speaker 1: stay home. Around the time George got his driver's license,
Speaker 1: his father, Billy Wagner, bought him a use Chevy pickup
Speaker 1: truck for about twenty five hundred dollars, but even that
Speaker 1: purchase created lasting tension because Billy Wagner also bought a
Speaker 1: more expensive pickup for Jake. He got his three or
Speaker 1: four months before mine. My mother made my father buy
Speaker 1: it for him, all right, was a cheap truck, an
Speaker 1: expensive true. He was sixteen thousand dollars, so he got
Speaker 1: this sixteen thousand dollar truck before he got any true. Yes,
Speaker 1: And how did that make you feel? Considering the one
Speaker 1: I wanted was I was told no for and then
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks later they bought my brother's truck
Speaker 1: that was the same price. Not a good feeling for
Speaker 1: a fifteen year old. Did you express your feeling? I
Speaker 1: brought it up many times for my entire life A
Speaker 1: little bit. Yes, still there with freedom and new friends.
Speaker 1: George Wagner spent most of us free time partying with
Speaker 1: Frankie Rodin at nearby Big Bare League. Describe the drinking
Speaker 1: parties or whatever. Did you played drinking games and drinking
Speaker 1: till one of us fell out, which was usually me? Right?
Speaker 1: Did you enjoy them? Yes? Did that cause any problems
Speaker 1: back at the home one? Yeah? My mother didn't let
Speaker 1: me being down there. Why not? She said it was
Speaker 1: a bad environment and bad influences and I was basically
Speaker 1: going to end up sending myself to hell from it.
Speaker 1: And how would she tell you that? Or when would
Speaker 1: tell you that? Almost daily. George testified that his mother
Speaker 1: Angelo regularly berated him for his immoral lifestyle, also that
Speaker 1: she viewed Jake as an angel. When my mother had
Speaker 1: him paranoid that he was going to go to hell,
Speaker 1: and she kept beating into everybody's head if you do
Speaker 1: anything that you're making Jesus cry and you're gonna end
Speaker 1: up going to hell. She would say that all the time.
Speaker 1: If you say one curse word, or if you do
Speaker 1: anything which she thought was that appropriate. What would say
Speaker 1: that you're in, you know, going down a entirely bad road,
Speaker 1: or you're making Jesus cry for this or that, or
Speaker 1: depending on the situation, What was your reaction? I really
Speaker 1: didn't have one. I get what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1: What about Jake was always terrified of going down? How
Speaker 1: would you describe Jake as compared to you at this point?
Speaker 1: We are nothing alike? And how would you describe your
Speaker 1: relationship as you went through your team. I experien as
Speaker 1: much time away from Jake as I possibly could. We're
Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
Speaker 1: I hope nobody thinks I got this story because I
Speaker 1: slept with the guy. So how does the half American,
Speaker 1: half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans with absolutely no
Speaker 1: journalism experience. Great, the biggest story of the eighties. That's
Speaker 1: what journalist is all about. I'm a woman not wearing
Speaker 1: a bra, curses like a sailor. I got balls bigger
Speaker 1: than any man, and rather used to call me his
Speaker 1: secret weapon. Pablo gave me half a pound of cocaine
Speaker 1: for a wedding. We work hard, but we party even
Speaker 1: harder because you never knew it's the next day's battle
Speaker 1: was going to be the one they killed. Up in
Speaker 1: the air, I heard three somethings. I looked at one
Speaker 1: soldier and I said, that's not a good sound. Is Oh,
Speaker 1: we're going dead? And I said, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: We're going down? And then we started to go down.
Speaker 1: Listen to Journalist to every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. They say
Speaker 1: history is written by the victors, but you know what
Speaker 1: they've left out A hell of a lot of juicy stuff.
Speaker 1: Take Abe Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a young couple
Speaker 1: was sitting right next to him when he was shot?
Speaker 1: It haunted the husband so much he later murdered his wife. Ah,
Speaker 1: we all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again.
Speaker 1: Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the
Speaker 1: telephone and then claimed it as his own. For every
Speaker 1: pivotal moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's
Speaker 1: usually way more interesting than the big story. From mysterious
Speaker 1: murders to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the
Speaker 1: fascinating lives of those just outside the limelight. We're going
Speaker 1: to uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know
Speaker 1: you needed to know. Listen to the backstory with me
Speaker 1: Patty Steeles twice a week on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, I'm Carol
Speaker 1: Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called the girl Friends.
Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few
Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted into the points she went unconscious.
Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one
Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us
Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to
Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
Speaker 1: the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Malcolm Gladwell here, host
Speaker 1: of Revisionous History, a show about the overlooked and the
Speaker 1: misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else, like our ongoing
Speaker 1: obsessive campaign to blow up the world's most focus college
Speaker 1: ranking system. Why not just throw in a few extra
Speaker 1: zeros or witness me after years of fancy public speaking,
Speaker 1: learning that I kind of have to start over. The
Speaker 1: tone that you had throughout the debate was very similar
Speaker 1: to some of the students that I do work with,
Speaker 1: and that's what I teach them not to do. We're
Speaker 1: making more Revisionous History for you this year than ever
Speaker 1: from places all across this great country, emergency rooms, huge theaters,
Speaker 1: small towns and shooting rageous and you want to put
Speaker 1: your thumb up like this, US, you're gonna pull the
Speaker 1: trigger with this finger here. Okay, listen to Revisionist History
Speaker 1: on the iHeart Edo app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. George described his brother Jake as rude
Speaker 1: and lacking a filter. He goes to somebody's house and
Speaker 1: he thinks he's dirty. He's gonna tell him your house
Speaker 1: is filthy. If he thinks you stink, he'll tell you
Speaker 1: go take a shower. He has no filter. Did that
Speaker 1: cause a problem. Yes. He insults people, and a lot
Speaker 1: of my friends and stuff didn't like him being around.
Speaker 1: That cause you, yes, because then they didn't want to
Speaker 1: hang out with me. My brother thinks that he's a
Speaker 1: saintan can do no wrong, and he's better than everybody.
Speaker 1: And he thinks that him being honest with people's what
Speaker 1: people wants to hear about him, opinion of their self.
Speaker 1: And did that cause a problem with your relationship with
Speaker 1: the law. Yes. My mother thinks so I should be
Speaker 1: like him. She's always said that she thinks that he's
Speaker 1: a saitan does no wrong, and she thinks that I'm
Speaker 1: basically going to hell. Here's investigative journalist and law on
Speaker 1: crime reporter Angjeanette Levy. He made it sound like, you know,
Speaker 1: Angela favored Jake. He always got in trouble for what
Speaker 1: Jake did. Jake would blame him for things when they
Speaker 1: were kids. But I mean, he said, straight up, we
Speaker 1: don't get along. We'd fight all the time, and sometimes
Speaker 1: we get along, and then most of the times we didn't.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine existing like that. He said there were
Speaker 1: times he wanted to leave, and I wondered if that
Speaker 1: was really true, and maybe he did want to leave,
Speaker 1: but he didn't do it. Later, George told the jury
Speaker 1: that his younger brother Jake, was also regular at Big
Speaker 1: Bear Lake, but instead of partying, Jake would hang out
Speaker 1: with his new thirteen year old girlfriend, Hanname Rodin. He
Speaker 1: would sit in the tanta around the camp fire back
Speaker 1: and aren't really was with Hanna all night, but he
Speaker 1: wouldn't join in with the drink. No, and he wouldn't
Speaker 1: let Hanna either. Did Anna try to join sometimes, yes,
Speaker 1: Jake wouldn't let her go. Do you know what he
Speaker 1: getting one? Hannah having bad influences or drinking her party
Speaker 1: At this point in George's testimony. Having set up the
Speaker 1: tensions between George and his mother and brother, defense attorney
Speaker 1: John Parker pivoted back to the Wagner's life on Bethel
Speaker 1: Hill and began to unpack the Wagner's history of criminal activity.
Speaker 1: The first house was a single white trailer. My mother
Speaker 1: tried to earn the house down. That failed because she
Speaker 1: didn't know what she was doing in the beginning. If
Speaker 1: there's no air, it's mother's out. And she had everything
Speaker 1: closed up in the beginning, so just the kitchen, living
Speaker 1: room Mary burn alright, and your mother set that on fire.
Speaker 1: She had my father said it on fire, but it
Speaker 1: was her plan, and she want to talk my father
Speaker 1: how to do it? All right? Can you remember this
Speaker 1: when you were six or seven years old? And what
Speaker 1: did you think about that when you were a kid?
Speaker 1: I really had no George said. After his parents remodeled
Speaker 1: their first trailer, they added a second one, but once
Speaker 1: again his parents said fire to their newly remodeled home.
Speaker 1: Two thousand. You were about nine years old, roughly, all right,
Speaker 1: And what do you mean pay burned that one down
Speaker 1: to succeeded with that one? Who's dead? My father and
Speaker 1: my mother, And how did they vote same? Massive is
Speaker 1: always a whole bunch of newspapers stuck underneath the fuse box.
Speaker 1: So at this point in the time, when you're nine
Speaker 1: years old, approximately your first two homes have been burned
Speaker 1: by your mom and dad. Yes, later, the Wagoners built
Speaker 1: a more permanent home in their property. It was nicknamed
Speaker 1: the quote Kentucky Wonder Mansion, and George said he was
Speaker 1: fond of this house because he had his own area
Speaker 1: that allowed him to leave whenever he wanted. George said
Speaker 1: he often did this to avoid working with his mother
Speaker 1: in her breading business. She expected me and my brother
Speaker 1: to put in eight and ten hour days and basically
Speaker 1: not get paid for it. So every time she turned
Speaker 1: her back, I'd be done. And so what did your
Speaker 1: mom think of that? She'd always fell a fit for
Speaker 1: me leaving my brother? And did she sell a lot
Speaker 1: of dogs? Lots of them? Made money at it a lot?
Speaker 1: And what type of dogs at that point? English bulldogs
Speaker 1: and Labrador retrievers? Yes, were they always pure? She would
Speaker 1: We'll start with the labs. The English bulldogs were legit
Speaker 1: because it's hard to find something it looks like them.
Speaker 1: But the labs. If one of the females had eight pups,
Speaker 1: she would go to the pound and get four or
Speaker 1: five more that look like them. And if she sold
Speaker 1: the eight, she'd just say she didn't sell the eight,
Speaker 1: and then she'd resell the ones that she got from
Speaker 1: the pound that may or may not be a lab. Okay,
Speaker 1: if it had a white spot on a black dog
Speaker 1: looked identical to a lab, she'd just died the hair.
Speaker 1: She would die the hair so it would turn it black,
Speaker 1: and you wouldn't know how the white spot on her?
Speaker 1: And how long did the dog business go on until
Speaker 1: it burned? Whatever? We came home from Columbus one night,
Speaker 1: late at night, and it was laying in ashes all
Speaker 1: four dog kennels. How many dogs close to a hundred?
Speaker 1: Did you ever find out? How that dog kill burn?
Speaker 1: But the fires didn't stop? George said his parents burnt
Speaker 1: the Kentucky Wonder Mansion in two thousand and seven. When
Speaker 1: his parents considered moving to Alaska. However, they decided to
Speaker 1: stay in Ohio and built a new house, which contained
Speaker 1: a special room in the basement for a new business
Speaker 1: opportunity with Chris Roden Senior. All right, what was that? It?
Speaker 1: Was used for girl marijuana. Explain that it was ten
Speaker 1: foot wide by forty foot long. All right, and were
Speaker 1: you ever in the room? Why no, I don't agree
Speaker 1: with drugs. George also testified that his family once stole
Speaker 1: a truckload of boots. From the beginning, my father and
Speaker 1: other people that he drove with had two choices. Basically,
Speaker 1: they were either going to take a load of diapers
Speaker 1: or a load of rocky boots. Who actually hooked the trailer?
Speaker 1: I can't say. I was not there. I don't know
Speaker 1: who hooked it. But the plan was either the diapers
Speaker 1: or the boots. My mother was pushing for the diapers,
Speaker 1: and my father and his friends all wanted the boots,
Speaker 1: so my mother sided with them, and they went with
Speaker 1: the boots. Okay, so whatever. Then the boots showed up
Speaker 1: and my dad's friends and hit their family. My dad
Speaker 1: and my brother and I and my mom unloaded the trailer.
Speaker 1: So what happened? We unloaded it? He got divided three ways,
Speaker 1: and then they hauled a trailer out. Why everybody hauled
Speaker 1: their boots to whoever's house they were going to? And
Speaker 1: how many boots are we talking about? Fifty three? One
Speaker 1: or two? Load thousands, thousands, Yes, and your mom was
Speaker 1: involved in them. Yes, she helped planet, She helped planet. Yes,
Speaker 1: And so did you guys get some of the boots.
Speaker 1: Everybody in Pike County was wearing Rocky boots at that point.
Speaker 1: Are you aware of any other deaths between two thousand
Speaker 1: and five twenty fourteen? And fruit mom or dad or families?
Speaker 1: How many do you want me to go into? Because
Speaker 1: I can go for days. George Wagner detailed many other
Speaker 1: crimes his family committed, from stealing Dell computers to copper
Speaker 1: wiring after the atoms were sold. George that his father,
Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, would hide money around the country. Did your
Speaker 1: dad would tell you something about a pension planet? My
Speaker 1: father used to say that he buried money across the
Speaker 1: US in different spots. What do you mean by when
Speaker 1: he get big, big loads of stuff that he would
Speaker 1: take in all too, Mexico and cell He would take
Speaker 1: the money and bury it. Where would he bury it?
Speaker 1: Can't say that just now somewhere between here in Texas,
Speaker 1: That's what he vote. He said multiple places. So if
Speaker 1: I understand here, he would take a load of copper aluminum,
Speaker 1: think and he would come back. Yes, Well, would you
Speaker 1: come back with brown paper bags full of money? How
Speaker 1: much money? We're twent one hundred and two hundred thousand,
Speaker 1: depending on what the price of scrap was at that time.
Speaker 1: How do you know, because my brother and I would
Speaker 1: count it. That was your job. Yes, to count that one. Yes,
Speaker 1: here again, Stephanie and Jeff. This is pretty shocking. It's
Speaker 1: a pretty wild detail. Two hundred thousand dollars in a
Speaker 1: little brown bag is a lot of cash. So you're
Speaker 1: buying scraps, You're stealing scraps of aluminum and copper, and
Speaker 1: then hiding the money in various places throughout the country.
Speaker 1: It's a big plan. It shows a lot of thinking.
Speaker 1: By the way, if any of the wagoners were using
Speaker 1: some of these clever ways of making money, Lee, imagine
Speaker 1: how successful they would be. It takes a lot of
Speaker 1: thought and preparation and care to even come up with
Speaker 1: the plan to be able to hide money in various
Speaker 1: parts of the country. And all of the stealing and
Speaker 1: the thieving and the arson and the receipts, it's just
Speaker 1: all used for bad. Does that mean it's not such
Speaker 1: a leap to imagine them as murderers? Maybe not? Where
Speaker 1: I think George Wagner's testimony goes a little off the
Speaker 1: rails is this section about bearing money and all of
Speaker 1: the things, because to me, it just makes the whole
Speaker 1: family only seem more out of their minds, and they
Speaker 1: looked at themselves as this criminal enterprise who everyone was
Speaker 1: out to get them, and they were being trailed and
Speaker 1: tracked at all moments of the day, so much so
Speaker 1: that they had to hide money across the country and
Speaker 1: brown paper bags. It only to me adds to the
Speaker 1: level of depravity and true lunacy that was going on
Speaker 1: inside this home that, by all accounts, George Wagner the
Speaker 1: fourth was very much a part of Let's stop here
Speaker 1: for another break. Despite being close to his father as
Speaker 1: a young boy, the pair grew apart when George was
Speaker 1: a teenager and after his father, Billy, began driving long
Speaker 1: haul truck roots after the dog kennels burned the last one. Um,
Speaker 1: my father started driving the truck. And did you notice
Speaker 1: that it changes in your father after he started driving. Yes,
Speaker 1: my father had a habit of wanting to be identical
Speaker 1: to whoever he takes to the father figure at the time.
Speaker 1: He has daddy issues. Okay, and so when he started
Speaker 1: driving truck, did you notice the change. Yes, the guy
Speaker 1: he was driving with U took multiple different things to
Speaker 1: stay awake, and my father couldn't keep up with him,
Speaker 1: so he started doing the same thing. What do you
Speaker 1: mean he started doing the same He would take what
Speaker 1: the guy he was driving with was taking multiple handfuls
Speaker 1: of atfects and paint pills. And did you notice any
Speaker 1: changes in his pa? It made him very irritable, hard
Speaker 1: to be around. Did that cause any problems in your relationship?
Speaker 1: A lot? He said he had a tumultuous relationship with
Speaker 1: his father, Billy, and recalled three fist fights they got
Speaker 1: into over the years. My brother ran me over with
Speaker 1: my own truck when he was tried to hook up
Speaker 1: a trailer and I was yelling at my brother, and
Speaker 1: for some reason, my father went off on me, and
Speaker 1: he said, your brother, Randy Lowell, was at a purpose
Speaker 1: or an accident. He was not paying attention. Were you injured?
Speaker 1: Not really, just a little black and blue, right, And
Speaker 1: so what happened My father thought I was just yelling
Speaker 1: at my brother for their reason, and pushed you up
Speaker 1: against my truck and dared me to hitting and you
Speaker 1: were sixteen, Yes, so whatever. I was just fed up
Speaker 1: with it. So I hit him. I hauled off and
Speaker 1: hit him with your fist. Yes, what happened? Then he
Speaker 1: hit the ground and he got back up and we
Speaker 1: went into a fist fight. How long was that? Few
Speaker 1: minutes till my mother broke it up? And so did
Speaker 1: that first fist fight affect your relationship with your day?
Speaker 1: We didn't speak for a few weeks after that, And
Speaker 1: so were there other instances or other times when you
Speaker 1: got into a fight with your dad? Yes? Three? Three more?
Speaker 1: I remember two more fist fights and one that was
Speaker 1: just like a massive verbal argument. He called me dumb,
Speaker 1: say I wouldn't listen, call me ignorant all the time.
Speaker 1: Now worry about in my late teens. So what happened there?
Speaker 1: I hit him again? Yes? What? We got into another
Speaker 1: fist fight for four or five minutes until it en
Speaker 1: didn't Did that affect your relationship? Another three or four
Speaker 1: weeks and they're talking to each other. In early twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: there was another fight between George and Billy. This one
Speaker 1: nearly turned deadly. My father got upset and while I
Speaker 1: was leaving and broke the passenger's side window out the
Speaker 1: truck and shattered me a glass. How did he do? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he punched the window and then my r was kept
Speaker 1: on my dash. He grabbed it and threw it across
Speaker 1: the yard into the dog pins an fifteen. Yes, and
Speaker 1: so he broke out those passenger side window and grabbed
Speaker 1: her gun that was on the dash. Yes, and so
Speaker 1: what happened after he threw your I got upset because
Speaker 1: he just threw my arm. But I just recently bought
Speaker 1: a few months prior, and me and my father went
Speaker 1: to another fistfight. What happened not to really go into
Speaker 1: a lot of detail, but my father lost. So did
Speaker 1: that affect your relationship? Yes, we went over two months
Speaker 1: without speaking. I want to say more on that next time.
Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pipedon Masker
Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow,
Speaker 1: Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed
Speaker 1: by Jeff Tis, Music by Jared Aston. The piked Inmasacer
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