WEBVTT - George Wagner Takes the Stand 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.080 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.319 get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.080 of George Remus. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.800 who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition. 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.440 Remus is the biggest man in the business, but George 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.119 Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:30.200 to betrayal, revenge, and one of the most sensational murder 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.640 trials in American history. Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.560 King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:43.679 wherever you get your podcasts. LA is expansive. There's nearly 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.440 ten million people living here and it comes with a 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:51.920 lot of noise. But if you tune those sounds out 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.920 and listen close, you'll hear the real LA. What a 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:02.440 be bargim I'm going to be a father? Are you 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:06.280 feeling this? A fiction podcast? Mixtape about love? Listen to 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.960 it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:15.639 get your podcast. Are you aware at any time that 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.560 Jake and your dad your mom will planned to kill 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:23.200 the road now? Was that ever disgusted? No, he said, 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.160 straight up. We don't get along. He said there were 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.680 times he wanted to leave, and I wondered if that 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:30.600 was really true, and maybe he did want to leave, 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:37.040 but he didn't do it describe your relationship Nae. I 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:41.920 loved Anna as a baby sister. I personally was surprised 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.480 that the things specifically said, were you there? Did you 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:46.760 do anything you know about it? Any time? When did 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.040 you find out that they were guilty or that they 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:53.040 had actually participated. I never would have believed my family 0:02:53.040 --> 0:03:02.240 would be capable of doing something about magnitude. This is 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:06.320 the pig did massacre? Returned to Pike County season four, 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:12.680 episode twenty one, George Wagner takes the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.280 a television producer at KAT Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.560 Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner has 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.040 pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.920 His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:31.280 pleaded not guilty to all charges. Facing a mountain of 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.360 evidence and testimony placing George Wagner the fourth at the 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:37.000 center of the plot to kill the Rodent family, his 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.800 lawyers made a surprising decision to call him to the stand. 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.880 The unexpected move was described as a quote hail Mary 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:49.920 by many trial watchers. During his testimony, George Wagner's lawyers 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:53.160 painted him as the black sheep of the family. During 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.600 the first day of his testimony, George calmly disputed nearly 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:59.280 everything that had been said about him by other witnesses. 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.040 Describing his criminal upbringing. George Wagner frequently spoke of wanting 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.160 to escape from his own family. Today, it was a 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.080 bombshell day, if you will, of testimony. For nine weeks, 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.120 George Wagner the Fourth has sat quietly as a parade 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.200 of witnesses, from police investigators to his own brother and 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:21.159 mother picked apart his claim of innocence and ignorance. George, 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.160 you love justice, microphone for him. Just keep your voice 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:29.960 up real loud. Please stage your full name for the record. 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.320 George Washington Wagner the fourth, You've been sitting in this 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.600 trial for any weeks? Yes, But on the forty second 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.200 day of the child wearing a white collar dress shirt, 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:43.279 dark tie, and a gray vest, George Wagner took the 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.799 stands in his own defense. His attorney began by asking 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.080 George to describe the troubled environment he grew up in. 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:55.599 So let's talk about your education first. Okay, did you 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:58.560 ever go to a public school for a very short 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.440 period of time. So how did you get your education? 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:06.200 My mother homeschool but George Wagner's homeschooling didn't last long. 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.520 By the age of fourteen, his official education was over. 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:13.880 It was replaced by a different type of education. Why 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.159 did I felt that I didn't need anymore and I 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:19.520 just wanted to do my own thing? My father quitnessed 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.279 sixth grade? And so what did you want to do? 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.320 What did you do with your wife? Did you have 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:30.520 any kids or aspiration? When I was a young kid, 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:32.520 I wanted to be either a game warden or a forrester, 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:35.840 And when I got older, my father pushed me more 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.560 towards being a deesel mechanic and a trup driver. Why 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.880 was that my father getting want nobody in a family 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.320 that wore a badge? Why was that he thought all 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.760 law enforcement was crooked? George Wagner said when he was young, 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.320 he and his father had a great relationship and that 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.680 the pair spent many days hunting and fishing together. But 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:00.960 his father, Billy Wagner, was also responsible for George Wagner's 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:05.400 other education. And your youth, did he teach you other things? 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.480 My father taught me how to open a lock, how 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:12.720 to steel fuel, how to steel loads or break into loads? 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:17.800 How did he actually do it? He bought a like 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:19.600 a lock pick set, comes with like a whole bunch 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.800 of different locks and picks, and then you sit us 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:24.680 down for hours until we can figure out how to 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:30.280 open it. And what would would do? If anything? Would 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.279 you want you learn how to do that? After my 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:34.880 brother and I learned how to do it, he would 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.800 go from like hotel to hotel in different counties and 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:42.719 open the vending machines in him. Would he do it? Usually? 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:46.080 You have my brother do it. My brother can open 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.400 a lock in a matter of seconds. Well what about you? 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.320 Three to four minutes? So your brother was a little 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.800 better picking locks than yes, but your dad took both 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.920 of you your round to pick one. Yes of locks? 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:03.720 Would u padlocks? Vending machine locks was the most common 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:08.320 door locks on trucks. Ignition, which is what would be 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:13.040 the purpose? Um the vending machines? Yeah? He would take 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.000 the coin box and the cash box out of him. 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:21.360 And did he teach you anything else around that? Just 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.320 how to break in the trailers and five back the 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:32.160 loads and um, and with the loads you go around 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.400 and take the padlock and the hinges off so you 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.840 don't break the seal. It's it's the seal is broken. 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.000 It's instantly. Somebody's been in it. So you got to 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.960 take the inge off and open it without it. But 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:46.960 you see what's in the trailer. If it's something you wanted, 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:49.320 then you unloaded. If it's not, you put the handback on. 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.560 No way, every knows it was opened, all right? And 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.320 your brother was with you, yes, all right? And he 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:00.120 would pick out the truck. Yes. Did he have any 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.800 methods or codes or anything like that as far as 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.000 how would you pick out a certain fundum? Usually it 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.800 had to end up being a company truck. But Walmart 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:12.640 was like the one he went after more than anything. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:19.280 And why was that he despises Walmart? I don't know why. Now, 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.800 did your mother know about these activities? Yes, she was 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.000 there ninety nine nine percent at the time she was 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:28.280 in the truck. Yes, and she knew your father was teaching. Yes. 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:31.760 Were there are other things that your father taught you 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:38.200 around how to steal fuel fuel? Yes, so your dad 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.640 taught you to steel fuel and picklocks. When you would 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.200 go out with your father, would he ever teach you 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.080 to look out for things or not look out for 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.280 things is or anything like that. So the job was 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:51.480 you were always supposed to make sure you could see 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:53.480 a talk before they seeing you, or to know where 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.439 every camera was, all right, So why would you explain 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:01.080 how we touched it? It really goes active when I 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.240 was a kid and he was still around in Pennsylvania 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.720 a lot for every company, and my brother would see 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.280 we'd get a dollar when we were a kid, all right, 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.240 And that goes back to like eight years old, even 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.280 before he started the theft, and how long did that? 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:22.000 We're candle eleven. He would go around and start out 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.240 with the we go down one street or something, and 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.760 if we missed one that he missed and we'd lose 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:31.000 four wheeler for a week, or if he pointed one 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.000 out that we didn't see, we get four wheller taken 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:41.200 for a week. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. The fact that 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.280 George Wagner took the stand in his own defense unexpectedly. 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:49.559 Nobody in the courtroom was anticipating him to take the 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:51.640 stand that day, and I have to say he was 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.480 very composed. He seemed very prepared. I mean, think about it. 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:57.839 The stakes could not be higher for him, and when 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.960 he describes his childhood, it's almost as though he was 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.360 born into a family of con artists. You know, here 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.840 he is being taught how to pick padlocks and steel 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:11.960 fuel and steel coins from vending machines. These are crimes. Granted, 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.480 they are petty crimes in nowhere equivalent to murder, but 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:17.920 it does paint a picture of what was happening in 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.000 his early days. It's possible that the defense was feeling 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.439 the pressure and decided it can't hurt to have George 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.480 Wagner take the stand. And I think he did a 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.040 pretty good job. He does not seem emotional to me. 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.680 He seems more credible than Jake and Angela Wagner. Now 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.560 it might be different because Jake and Angela Wagner's stories 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.719 lineup he said, she said versus he said. I mean, 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.319 he's extremely prepared for this moment. You know, we might 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:45.840 be surprised, but I imagine this is something he and 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.560 his lawyers were working on for weeks and probably running 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:52.800 through potential questions and potential answers. So for him, this 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:56.920 is the culmination of probably a lot of practice. And 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:02.640 remember accused killer Dad Wagner. He's very anti government anti 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.640 law enforcement. We've heard many, many stories about him preparing 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.160 for the end of days. So the other side of 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.000 this is, you know, they live in a very rural area. 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.960 In the event of a disaster, Billy Wagner wanted to 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.480 make sure that their kids were prepared and could survive 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:24.520 in any situation. That's the nice way of framing it. 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:26.960 But the truth wis they were stealing, and they were 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.400 stealing on a very high level at a very young age. 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.079 If I'm the Rodent family, I'm thinking, I don't care. 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.520 There's no excuse for allegedly murdering eight people. To me, 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.600 you know, you got your ATV taken away as a kid. 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.520 I don't know how that equates to being a part 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.360 of an eight person homicide. But again, I mean this 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:47.880 whole case. You know, we've heard a lot of things 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.400 that we don't think irrelevant, and what the jury's thinking 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.199 and what the judge's thinking, we can't say, yeah, I mean, 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:58.240 it's interesting context because obviously George Wagner's attorneys are really 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.959 painting a picture of a I who was considered maybe 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.000 second best to his brother. Much has been made about 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.480 perhaps Jake was favored by his parents and that George 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.800 was always the outcast in trying to step away from 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:16.440 the family and maybe look away from their scams and 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.720 cons and just try to get out to make a 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.720 better life for himself. It matters, maybe because it offers 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.319 some insight into how he just has always been used 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.960 to ignoring them, and maybe that's how he was able 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:35.760 to ignore the fact that his family was commiserating to 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.360 murder eight people. Or is that just wildly far fetched 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:44.920 it's now decades later. Does that excuse you of what 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.720 you're being accused of? On the other hand, it also 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:52.080 does paint a picture of how people are potentially indocrinated 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:58.520 into really dangerous behavior. By the time George Wagner was 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.000 a teenager, he said he was growing apart from his 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.959 own family and that he was growing closer to his uncle, 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:08.239 Chris Newcomb. The two regularly went hunting and rode ATVs 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.400 around the farm. Let's talk about Chris for a moment. 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:16.440 Explain your relationship with Chris. Chris is more like a 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:18.640 brother than me than an uncle. Why do you say 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.920 that we were almost identical and everything we like and 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.880 do and what type of things would you do? Gil 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:28.920 muddon hunting, fishing, just to see how far we could 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.680 go on four Wilder in a day. And would Jake 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.160 be part of this in his own way? Sometimes? Yes? 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.400 He was always left behind? And why was he He 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.400 didn't want to get his four or his dirt mike 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:44.280 whoever he had dirty and he'd run like two mile 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:49.600 an hour? And how we're doing Christ? Kind of like 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.600 a bad old help George Wagen said his brother Jake 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.000 preferred to play video games and to play with action figures. 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.400 He had hundreds of them. Every dime he got as 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.400 a young kid, he spent on action figures. He would 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:04.600 set him up on the shelf and stare at them 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.280 for hours. And did you play with him as well? No, 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.080 but I would go in and move them when he 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:12.760 wasn't there, just to see if he knows it. And 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.439 you could move with like a centimeter, he'd know. And 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:19.520 did that ever cause him many Mania fights? Would you 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.640 do that just to kind of double your brother? Just 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:26.520 to antagonizing antagonizing? Did he have any particular video games 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:32.880 he liked? Marvel Universe, Resident Evil, Left or Dead that's 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.640 another one. I can't remember what it was. What other 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:37.520 type of things would you and Chris Dowet you got 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:43.440 old right party run girls. Wagner testified he started drinking 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.520 alcohol at age thirteen and was partying regularly. Around the 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.240 time he was eighteen years old, George met Frankie Rodin 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.880 the pair became quick friends. Did you consider it a 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:55.880 good friend or I can set you one of my 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.840 best friends? George said his life change once he got 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.000 his driver's license. He made new friends and was able 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.520 to get away from his mother Angela and brother Jake. 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.520 Why's it because I have freedom free and I could 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.080 leave when I wanted, I hang out for my uncle 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:17.680 or Frankie or Shnam Nathan Walls, Garrett Leaf all right? 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.600 And did that cause any problems back home? On about hood? 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.840 My mom was never happy about it. She always said 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:27.440 that I was leaving my brother to do all the 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.400 work and I needed to be more like him to 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.320 stay home. Around the time George got his driver's license, 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.040 his father, Billy Wagner, bought him a use Chevy pickup 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.960 truck for about twenty five hundred dollars, but even that 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.680 purchase created lasting tension because Billy Wagner also bought a 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.160 more expensive pickup for Jake. He got his three or 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.160 four months before mine. My mother made my father buy 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.600 it for him, all right, was a cheap truck, an 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.200 expensive true. He was sixteen thousand dollars, so he got 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.360 this sixteen thousand dollar truck before he got any true. Yes, 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.280 And how did that make you feel? Considering the one 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.720 I wanted was I was told no for and then 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:06.840 a couple of weeks later they bought my brother's truck 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.880 that was the same price. Not a good feeling for 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.680 a fifteen year old. Did you express your feeling? I 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.440 brought it up many times for my entire life A 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:22.520 little bit. Yes, still there with freedom and new friends. 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.040 George Wagner spent most of us free time partying with 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:29.520 Frankie Rodin at nearby Big Bare League. Describe the drinking 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:34.920 parties or whatever. Did you played drinking games and drinking 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.880 till one of us fell out, which was usually me? Right? 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.400 Did you enjoy them? Yes? Did that cause any problems 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.840 back at the home one? Yeah? My mother didn't let 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.520 me being down there. Why not? She said it was 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:54.800 a bad environment and bad influences and I was basically 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:56.880 going to end up sending myself to hell from it. 0:16:57.840 --> 0:16:59.960 And how would she tell you that? Or when would 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:06.400 tell you that? Almost daily. George testified that his mother 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:10.800 Angelo regularly berated him for his immoral lifestyle, also that 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.960 she viewed Jake as an angel. When my mother had 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:15.639 him paranoid that he was going to go to hell, 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:17.520 and she kept beating into everybody's head if you do 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.000 anything that you're making Jesus cry and you're gonna end 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.680 up going to hell. She would say that all the time. 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.840 If you say one curse word, or if you do 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.520 anything which she thought was that appropriate. What would say 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.960 that you're in, you know, going down a entirely bad road, 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.879 or you're making Jesus cry for this or that, or 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:43.960 depending on the situation, What was your reaction? I really 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:45.920 didn't have one. I get what I wanted to do. 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:50.520 What about Jake was always terrified of going down? How 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:54.840 would you describe Jake as compared to you at this point? 0:17:56.160 --> 0:18:00.560 We are nothing alike? And how would you describe your 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.280 relationship as you went through your team. I experien as 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.960 much time away from Jake as I possibly could. We're 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.359 going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.560 I hope nobody thinks I got this story because I 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.360 slept with the guy. So how does the half American, 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.879 half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans with absolutely no 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.600 journalism experience. Great, the biggest story of the eighties. That's 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.679 what journalist is all about. I'm a woman not wearing 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:34.240 a bra, curses like a sailor. I got balls bigger 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.720 than any man, and rather used to call me his 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:40.760 secret weapon. Pablo gave me half a pound of cocaine 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.960 for a wedding. We work hard, but we party even 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:48.360 harder because you never knew it's the next day's battle 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.080 was going to be the one they killed. Up in 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:57.320 the air, I heard three somethings. I looked at one 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.119 soldier and I said, that's not a good sound. Is Oh, 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.560 we're going dead? And I said, what do you mean? 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.520 We're going down? And then we started to go down. 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.120 Listen to Journalist to every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:16.120 Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. They say 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.840 history is written by the victors, but you know what 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.119 they've left out A hell of a lot of juicy stuff. 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.439 Take Abe Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a young couple 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:29.919 was sitting right next to him when he was shot? 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:35.520 It haunted the husband so much he later murdered his wife. Ah, 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.760 we all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again. 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.439 Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.000 telephone and then claimed it as his own. For every 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.840 pivotal moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.760 usually way more interesting than the big story. From mysterious 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.840 murders to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.959 fascinating lives of those just outside the limelight. We're going 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.280 to uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.359 you needed to know. Listen to the backstory with me 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.840 Patty Steeles twice a week on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:17.280 Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, I'm Carol 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.800 Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called the girl Friends. 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.880 Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.920 of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:34.240 He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:38.840 he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:43.960 He really wasn't. He shouted into the points she went unconscious. 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:48.440 Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:52.480 time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.439 girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.800 pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:00.639 I'll be honest with you. I saw him right now, 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:02.959 I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.800 would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.840 always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:13.520 the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:17.160 you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Malcolm Gladwell here, host 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:20.280 of Revisionous History, a show about the overlooked and the 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:25.800 misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else, like our ongoing 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.280 obsessive campaign to blow up the world's most focus college 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.840 ranking system. Why not just throw in a few extra 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:38.280 zeros or witness me after years of fancy public speaking, 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.880 learning that I kind of have to start over. The 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.840 tone that you had throughout the debate was very similar 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:46.800 to some of the students that I do work with, 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:49.440 and that's what I teach them not to do. We're 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.439 making more Revisionous History for you this year than ever 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:58.560 from places all across this great country, emergency rooms, huge theaters, 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.600 small towns and shooting rageous and you want to put 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:05.639 your thumb up like this, US, you're gonna pull the 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.560 trigger with this finger here. Okay, listen to Revisionist History 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.639 on the iHeart Edo app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:23.800 get your podcasts. George described his brother Jake as rude 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:27.000 and lacking a filter. He goes to somebody's house and 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:28.800 he thinks he's dirty. He's gonna tell him your house 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:30.679 is filthy. If he thinks you stink, he'll tell you 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.800 go take a shower. He has no filter. Did that 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:37.359 cause a problem. Yes. He insults people, and a lot 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.200 of my friends and stuff didn't like him being around. 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:42.399 That cause you, yes, because then they didn't want to 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:46.399 hang out with me. My brother thinks that he's a 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:48.960 saintan can do no wrong, and he's better than everybody. 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.320 And he thinks that him being honest with people's what 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:55.040 people wants to hear about him, opinion of their self. 0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:59.840 And did that cause a problem with your relationship with 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.600 the law. Yes. My mother thinks so I should be 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:06.160 like him. She's always said that she thinks that he's 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:09.520 a saitan does no wrong, and she thinks that I'm 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:14.680 basically going to hell. Here's investigative journalist and law on 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:19.800 crime reporter Angjeanette Levy. He made it sound like, you know, 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:23.320 Angela favored Jake. He always got in trouble for what 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.240 Jake did. Jake would blame him for things when they 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:29.879 were kids. But I mean, he said, straight up, we 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:32.880 don't get along. We'd fight all the time, and sometimes 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:35.080 we get along, and then most of the times we didn't. 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:38.240 I can't imagine existing like that. He said there were 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:40.720 times he wanted to leave, and I wondered if that 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:42.640 was really true, and maybe he did want to leave, 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.560 but he didn't do it. Later, George told the jury 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:49.120 that his younger brother Jake, was also regular at Big 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:51.960 Bear Lake, but instead of partying, Jake would hang out 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:56.040 with his new thirteen year old girlfriend, Hanname Rodin. He 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:58.400 would sit in the tanta around the camp fire back 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:01.840 and aren't really was with Hanna all night, but he 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:04.240 wouldn't join in with the drink. No, and he wouldn't 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:07.520