1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story 20 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: of George Remus. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition. 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: Remus is the biggest man in the business, but George 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading 24 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: to betrayal, revenge, and one of the most sensational murder 25 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: trials in American history. Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 27 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. LA is expansive. There's nearly 28 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: ten million people living here and it comes with a 29 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: lot of noise. But if you tune those sounds out 30 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: and listen close, you'll hear the real LA. What a 31 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: be bargim I'm going to be a father? Are you 32 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: feeling this? A fiction podcast? Mixtape about love? Listen to 33 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you 34 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: get your podcast. Are you aware at any time that 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: Jake and your dad your mom will planned to kill 36 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: the road now? Was that ever disgusted? No, he said, 37 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: straight up. We don't get along. He said there were 38 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: times he wanted to leave, and I wondered if that 39 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: was really true, and maybe he did want to leave, 40 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: but he didn't do it describe your relationship Nae. I 41 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: loved Anna as a baby sister. I personally was surprised 42 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: that the things specifically said, were you there? Did you 43 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: do anything you know about it? Any time? When did 44 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: you find out that they were guilty or that they 45 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: had actually participated. I never would have believed my family 46 00:02:53,040 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: would be capable of doing something about magnitude. This is 47 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: the pig did massacre? Returned to Pike County season four, 48 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: episode twenty one, George Wagner takes the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 49 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: a television producer at KAT Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and 50 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner has 51 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. 52 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also 53 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to all charges. Facing a mountain of 54 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: evidence and testimony placing George Wagner the fourth at the 55 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: center of the plot to kill the Rodent family, his 56 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: lawyers made a surprising decision to call him to the stand. 57 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: The unexpected move was described as a quote hail Mary 58 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: by many trial watchers. During his testimony, George Wagner's lawyers 59 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: painted him as the black sheep of the family. During 60 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: the first day of his testimony, George calmly disputed nearly 61 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: everything that had been said about him by other witnesses. 62 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: Describing his criminal upbringing. George Wagner frequently spoke of wanting 63 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: to escape from his own family. Today, it was a 64 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: bombshell day, if you will, of testimony. For nine weeks, 65 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: George Wagner the Fourth has sat quietly as a parade 66 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: of witnesses, from police investigators to his own brother and 67 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: mother picked apart his claim of innocence and ignorance. George, 68 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: you love justice, microphone for him. Just keep your voice 69 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: up real loud. Please stage your full name for the record. 70 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: George Washington Wagner the fourth, You've been sitting in this 71 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: trial for any weeks? Yes, But on the forty second 72 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: day of the child wearing a white collar dress shirt, 73 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: dark tie, and a gray vest, George Wagner took the 74 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 1: stands in his own defense. His attorney began by asking 75 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: George to describe the troubled environment he grew up in. 76 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: So let's talk about your education first. Okay, did you 77 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: ever go to a public school for a very short 78 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: period of time. So how did you get your education? 79 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: My mother homeschool but George Wagner's homeschooling didn't last long. 80 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: By the age of fourteen, his official education was over. 81 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: It was replaced by a different type of education. Why 82 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: did I felt that I didn't need anymore and I 83 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: just wanted to do my own thing? My father quitnessed 84 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: sixth grade? And so what did you want to do? 85 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: What did you do with your wife? Did you have 86 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: any kids or aspiration? When I was a young kid, 87 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to be either a game warden or a forrester, 88 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: And when I got older, my father pushed me more 89 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: towards being a deesel mechanic and a trup driver. Why 90 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: was that my father getting want nobody in a family 91 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: that wore a badge? Why was that he thought all 92 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: law enforcement was crooked? George Wagner said when he was young, 93 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: he and his father had a great relationship and that 94 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: the pair spent many days hunting and fishing together. But 95 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: his father, Billy Wagner, was also responsible for George Wagner's 96 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: other education. And your youth, did he teach you other things? 97 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: My father taught me how to open a lock, how 98 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 1: to steel fuel, how to steel loads or break into loads? 99 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: How did he actually do it? He bought a like 100 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: a lock pick set, comes with like a whole bunch 101 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: of different locks and picks, and then you sit us 102 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: down for hours until we can figure out how to 103 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: open it. And what would would do? If anything? Would 104 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: you want you learn how to do that? After my 105 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: brother and I learned how to do it, he would 106 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: go from like hotel to hotel in different counties and 107 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: open the vending machines in him. Would he do it? Usually? 108 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: You have my brother do it. My brother can open 109 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: a lock in a matter of seconds. Well what about you? 110 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: Three to four minutes? So your brother was a little 111 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: better picking locks than yes, but your dad took both 112 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: of you your round to pick one. Yes of locks? 113 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: Would u padlocks? Vending machine locks was the most common 114 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: door locks on trucks. Ignition, which is what would be 115 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: the purpose? Um the vending machines? Yeah? He would take 116 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: the coin box and the cash box out of him. 117 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: And did he teach you anything else around that? Just 118 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: how to break in the trailers and five back the 119 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: loads and um, and with the loads you go around 120 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: and take the padlock and the hinges off so you 121 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: don't break the seal. It's it's the seal is broken. 122 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: It's instantly. Somebody's been in it. So you got to 123 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: take the inge off and open it without it. But 124 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: you see what's in the trailer. If it's something you wanted, 125 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: then you unloaded. If it's not, you put the handback on. 126 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: No way, every knows it was opened, all right? And 127 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: your brother was with you, yes, all right? And he 128 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: would pick out the truck. Yes. Did he have any 129 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: methods or codes or anything like that as far as 130 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: how would you pick out a certain fundum? Usually it 131 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: had to end up being a company truck. But Walmart 132 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: was like the one he went after more than anything. 133 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: And why was that he despises Walmart? I don't know why. Now, 134 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: did your mother know about these activities? Yes, she was 135 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: there ninety nine nine percent at the time she was 136 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: in the truck. Yes, and she knew your father was teaching. Yes. 137 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: Were there are other things that your father taught you 138 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: around how to steal fuel fuel? Yes, so your dad 139 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: taught you to steel fuel and picklocks. When you would 140 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: go out with your father, would he ever teach you 141 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: to look out for things or not look out for 142 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: things is or anything like that. So the job was 143 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: you were always supposed to make sure you could see 144 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: a talk before they seeing you, or to know where 145 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 1: every camera was, all right, So why would you explain 146 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: how we touched it? It really goes active when I 147 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: was a kid and he was still around in Pennsylvania 148 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: a lot for every company, and my brother would see 149 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: we'd get a dollar when we were a kid, all right, 150 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: And that goes back to like eight years old, even 151 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: before he started the theft, and how long did that? 152 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: We're candle eleven. He would go around and start out 153 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: with the we go down one street or something, and 154 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: if we missed one that he missed and we'd lose 155 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: four wheeler for a week, or if he pointed one 156 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: out that we didn't see, we get four wheller taken 157 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: for a week. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. The fact that 158 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: George Wagner took the stand in his own defense unexpectedly. 159 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: Nobody in the courtroom was anticipating him to take the 160 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: stand that day, and I have to say he was 161 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: very composed. He seemed very prepared. I mean, think about it. 162 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 1: The stakes could not be higher for him, and when 163 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: he describes his childhood, it's almost as though he was 164 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: born into a family of con artists. You know, here 165 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: he is being taught how to pick padlocks and steel 166 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: fuel and steel coins from vending machines. These are crimes. Granted, 167 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: they are petty crimes in nowhere equivalent to murder, but 168 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: it does paint a picture of what was happening in 169 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: his early days. It's possible that the defense was feeling 170 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: the pressure and decided it can't hurt to have George 171 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: Wagner take the stand. And I think he did a 172 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: pretty good job. He does not seem emotional to me. 173 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: He seems more credible than Jake and Angela Wagner. Now 174 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: it might be different because Jake and Angela Wagner's stories 175 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: lineup he said, she said versus he said. I mean, 176 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: he's extremely prepared for this moment. You know, we might 177 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: be surprised, but I imagine this is something he and 178 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: his lawyers were working on for weeks and probably running 179 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: through potential questions and potential answers. So for him, this 180 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: is the culmination of probably a lot of practice. And 181 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: remember accused killer Dad Wagner. He's very anti government anti 182 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: law enforcement. We've heard many, many stories about him preparing 183 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: for the end of days. So the other side of 184 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: this is, you know, they live in a very rural area. 185 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: In the event of a disaster, Billy Wagner wanted to 186 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: make sure that their kids were prepared and could survive 187 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: in any situation. That's the nice way of framing it. 188 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: But the truth wis they were stealing, and they were 189 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: stealing on a very high level at a very young age. 190 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: If I'm the Rodent family, I'm thinking, I don't care. 191 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: There's no excuse for allegedly murdering eight people. To me, 192 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: you know, you got your ATV taken away as a kid. 193 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: I don't know how that equates to being a part 194 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: of an eight person homicide. But again, I mean this 195 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: whole case. You know, we've heard a lot of things 196 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: that we don't think irrelevant, and what the jury's thinking 197 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: and what the judge's thinking, we can't say, yeah, I mean, 198 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: it's interesting context because obviously George Wagner's attorneys are really 199 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 1: painting a picture of a I who was considered maybe 200 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: second best to his brother. Much has been made about 201 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: perhaps Jake was favored by his parents and that George 202 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: was always the outcast in trying to step away from 203 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: the family and maybe look away from their scams and 204 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: cons and just try to get out to make a 205 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: better life for himself. It matters, maybe because it offers 206 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: some insight into how he just has always been used 207 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: to ignoring them, and maybe that's how he was able 208 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: to ignore the fact that his family was commiserating to 209 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: murder eight people. Or is that just wildly far fetched 210 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: it's now decades later. Does that excuse you of what 211 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: you're being accused of? On the other hand, it also 212 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: does paint a picture of how people are potentially indocrinated 213 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: into really dangerous behavior. By the time George Wagner was 214 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: a teenager, he said he was growing apart from his 215 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: own family and that he was growing closer to his uncle, 216 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,239 Speaker 1: Chris Newcomb. The two regularly went hunting and rode ATVs 217 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: around the farm. Let's talk about Chris for a moment. 218 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: Explain your relationship with Chris. Chris is more like a 219 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: brother than me than an uncle. Why do you say 220 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: that we were almost identical and everything we like and 221 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: do and what type of things would you do? Gil 222 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: muddon hunting, fishing, just to see how far we could 223 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: go on four Wilder in a day. And would Jake 224 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: be part of this in his own way? Sometimes? Yes? 225 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: He was always left behind? And why was he He 226 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: didn't want to get his four or his dirt mike 227 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: whoever he had dirty and he'd run like two mile 228 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: an hour? And how we're doing Christ? Kind of like 229 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: a bad old help George Wagen said his brother Jake 230 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: preferred to play video games and to play with action figures. 231 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: He had hundreds of them. Every dime he got as 232 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: a young kid, he spent on action figures. He would 233 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: set him up on the shelf and stare at them 234 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: for hours. And did you play with him as well? No, 235 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: but I would go in and move them when he 236 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: wasn't there, just to see if he knows it. And 237 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: you could move with like a centimeter, he'd know. And 238 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: did that ever cause him many Mania fights? Would you 239 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: do that just to kind of double your brother? Just 240 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: to antagonizing antagonizing? Did he have any particular video games 241 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: he liked? Marvel Universe, Resident Evil, Left or Dead that's 242 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: another one. I can't remember what it was. What other 243 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: type of things would you and Chris Dowet you got 244 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: old right party run girls. Wagner testified he started drinking 245 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: alcohol at age thirteen and was partying regularly. Around the 246 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: time he was eighteen years old, George met Frankie Rodin 247 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: the pair became quick friends. Did you consider it a 248 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: good friend or I can set you one of my 249 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: best friends? George said his life change once he got 250 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: his driver's license. He made new friends and was able 251 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: to get away from his mother Angela and brother Jake. 252 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: Why's it because I have freedom free and I could 253 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: leave when I wanted, I hang out for my uncle 254 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: or Frankie or Shnam Nathan Walls, Garrett Leaf all right? 255 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: And did that cause any problems back home? On about hood? 256 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: My mom was never happy about it. She always said 257 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: that I was leaving my brother to do all the 258 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: work and I needed to be more like him to 259 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: stay home. Around the time George got his driver's license, 260 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: his father, Billy Wagner, bought him a use Chevy pickup 261 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: truck for about twenty five hundred dollars, but even that 262 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: purchase created lasting tension because Billy Wagner also bought a 263 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: more expensive pickup for Jake. He got his three or 264 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: four months before mine. My mother made my father buy 265 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: it for him, all right, was a cheap truck, an 266 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: expensive true. He was sixteen thousand dollars, so he got 267 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: this sixteen thousand dollar truck before he got any true. Yes, 268 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: And how did that make you feel? Considering the one 269 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: I wanted was I was told no for and then 270 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks later they bought my brother's truck 271 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: that was the same price. Not a good feeling for 272 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: a fifteen year old. Did you express your feeling? I 273 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: brought it up many times for my entire life A 274 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: little bit. Yes, still there with freedom and new friends. 275 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: George Wagner spent most of us free time partying with 276 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: Frankie Rodin at nearby Big Bare League. Describe the drinking 277 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: parties or whatever. Did you played drinking games and drinking 278 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: till one of us fell out, which was usually me? Right? 279 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: Did you enjoy them? Yes? Did that cause any problems 280 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: back at the home one? Yeah? My mother didn't let 281 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: me being down there. Why not? She said it was 282 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: a bad environment and bad influences and I was basically 283 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: going to end up sending myself to hell from it. 284 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: And how would she tell you that? Or when would 285 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: tell you that? Almost daily. George testified that his mother 286 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: Angelo regularly berated him for his immoral lifestyle, also that 287 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: she viewed Jake as an angel. When my mother had 288 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: him paranoid that he was going to go to hell, 289 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: and she kept beating into everybody's head if you do 290 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: anything that you're making Jesus cry and you're gonna end 291 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 1: up going to hell. She would say that all the time. 292 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: If you say one curse word, or if you do 293 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: anything which she thought was that appropriate. What would say 294 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: that you're in, you know, going down a entirely bad road, 295 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: or you're making Jesus cry for this or that, or 296 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: depending on the situation, What was your reaction? I really 297 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: didn't have one. I get what I wanted to do. 298 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: What about Jake was always terrified of going down? How 299 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: would you describe Jake as compared to you at this point? 300 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: We are nothing alike? And how would you describe your 301 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: relationship as you went through your team. I experien as 302 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: much time away from Jake as I possibly could. We're 303 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 304 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: I hope nobody thinks I got this story because I 305 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 1: slept with the guy. So how does the half American, 306 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans with absolutely no 307 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: journalism experience. Great, the biggest story of the eighties. That's 308 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: what journalist is all about. I'm a woman not wearing 309 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: a bra, curses like a sailor. I got balls bigger 310 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: than any man, and rather used to call me his 311 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: secret weapon. Pablo gave me half a pound of cocaine 312 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: for a wedding. We work hard, but we party even 313 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 1: harder because you never knew it's the next day's battle 314 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: was going to be the one they killed. Up in 315 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: the air, I heard three somethings. I looked at one 316 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: soldier and I said, that's not a good sound. Is Oh, 317 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: we're going dead? And I said, what do you mean? 318 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: We're going down? And then we started to go down. 319 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: Listen to Journalist to every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, 320 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. They say 321 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: history is written by the victors, but you know what 322 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: they've left out A hell of a lot of juicy stuff. 323 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: Take Abe Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a young couple 324 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: was sitting right next to him when he was shot? 325 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: It haunted the husband so much he later murdered his wife. Ah, 326 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: we all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again. 327 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the 328 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: telephone and then claimed it as his own. For every 329 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: pivotal moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's 330 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: usually way more interesting than the big story. From mysterious 331 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: murders to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the 332 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,959 Speaker 1: fascinating lives of those just outside the limelight. We're going 333 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: to uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know 334 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: you needed to know. Listen to the backstory with me 335 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: Patty Steeles twice a week on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 336 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, I'm Carol 337 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called the girl Friends. 338 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 339 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 340 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 341 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 342 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted into the points she went unconscious. 343 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 344 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 345 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 346 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 347 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. I saw him right now, 348 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 349 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 350 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 351 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 352 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Malcolm Gladwell here, host 353 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: of Revisionous History, a show about the overlooked and the 354 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else, like our ongoing 355 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: obsessive campaign to blow up the world's most focus college 356 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: ranking system. Why not just throw in a few extra 357 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: zeros or witness me after years of fancy public speaking, 358 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: learning that I kind of have to start over. The 359 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: tone that you had throughout the debate was very similar 360 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: to some of the students that I do work with, 361 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: and that's what I teach them not to do. We're 362 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: making more Revisionous History for you this year than ever 363 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: from places all across this great country, emergency rooms, huge theaters, 364 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: small towns and shooting rageous and you want to put 365 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: your thumb up like this, US, you're gonna pull the 366 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: trigger with this finger here. Okay, listen to Revisionist History 367 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: on the iHeart Edo app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 368 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. George described his brother Jake as rude 369 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: and lacking a filter. He goes to somebody's house and 370 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: he thinks he's dirty. He's gonna tell him your house 371 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: is filthy. If he thinks you stink, he'll tell you 372 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: go take a shower. He has no filter. Did that 373 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: cause a problem. Yes. He insults people, and a lot 374 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: of my friends and stuff didn't like him being around. 375 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: That cause you, yes, because then they didn't want to 376 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: hang out with me. My brother thinks that he's a 377 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: saintan can do no wrong, and he's better than everybody. 378 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: And he thinks that him being honest with people's what 379 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: people wants to hear about him, opinion of their self. 380 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: And did that cause a problem with your relationship with 381 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: the law. Yes. My mother thinks so I should be 382 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: like him. She's always said that she thinks that he's 383 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: a saitan does no wrong, and she thinks that I'm 384 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: basically going to hell. Here's investigative journalist and law on 385 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: crime reporter Angjeanette Levy. He made it sound like, you know, 386 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: Angela favored Jake. He always got in trouble for what 387 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: Jake did. Jake would blame him for things when they 388 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: were kids. But I mean, he said, straight up, we 389 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: don't get along. We'd fight all the time, and sometimes 390 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: we get along, and then most of the times we didn't. 391 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: I can't imagine existing like that. He said there were 392 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: times he wanted to leave, and I wondered if that 393 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: was really true, and maybe he did want to leave, 394 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: but he didn't do it. Later, George told the jury 395 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 1: that his younger brother Jake, was also regular at Big 396 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: Bear Lake, but instead of partying, Jake would hang out 397 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: with his new thirteen year old girlfriend, Hanname Rodin. He 398 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: would sit in the tanta around the camp fire back 399 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: and aren't really was with Hanna all night, but he 400 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't join in with the drink. No, and he wouldn't 401 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: let Hanna either. Did Anna try to join sometimes, yes, 402 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: Jake wouldn't let her go. Do you know what he 403 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: getting one? Hannah having bad influences or drinking her party 404 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: At this point in George's testimony. Having set up the 405 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: tensions between George and his mother and brother, defense attorney 406 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: John Parker pivoted back to the Wagner's life on Bethel 407 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: Hill and began to unpack the Wagner's history of criminal activity. 408 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: The first house was a single white trailer. My mother 409 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: tried to earn the house down. That failed because she 410 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: didn't know what she was doing in the beginning. If 411 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: there's no air, it's mother's out. And she had everything 412 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: closed up in the beginning, so just the kitchen, living 413 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: room Mary burn alright, and your mother set that on fire. 414 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 1: She had my father said it on fire, but it 415 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: was her plan, and she want to talk my father 416 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: how to do it? All right? Can you remember this 417 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: when you were six or seven years old? And what 418 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: did you think about that when you were a kid? 419 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: I really had no George said. After his parents remodeled 420 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: their first trailer, they added a second one, but once 421 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 1: again his parents said fire to their newly remodeled home. 422 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: Two thousand. You were about nine years old, roughly, all right, 423 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: And what do you mean pay burned that one down 424 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: to succeeded with that one? Who's dead? My father and 425 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: my mother, And how did they vote same? Massive is 426 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: always a whole bunch of newspapers stuck underneath the fuse box. 427 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: So at this point in the time, when you're nine 428 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: years old, approximately your first two homes have been burned 429 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: by your mom and dad. Yes, later, the Wagoners built 430 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: a more permanent home in their property. It was nicknamed 431 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: the quote Kentucky Wonder Mansion, and George said he was 432 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: fond of this house because he had his own area 433 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 1: that allowed him to leave whenever he wanted. George said 434 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: he often did this to avoid working with his mother 435 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: in her breading business. She expected me and my brother 436 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: to put in eight and ten hour days and basically 437 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: not get paid for it. So every time she turned 438 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: her back, I'd be done. And so what did your 439 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: mom think of that? She'd always fell a fit for 440 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: me leaving my brother? And did she sell a lot 441 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: of dogs? Lots of them? Made money at it a lot? 442 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: And what type of dogs at that point? English bulldogs 443 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: and Labrador retrievers? Yes, were they always pure? She would 444 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: We'll start with the labs. The English bulldogs were legit 445 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: because it's hard to find something it looks like them. 446 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: But the labs. If one of the females had eight pups, 447 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: she would go to the pound and get four or 448 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: five more that look like them. And if she sold 449 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: the eight, she'd just say she didn't sell the eight, 450 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: and then she'd resell the ones that she got from 451 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: the pound that may or may not be a lab. Okay, 452 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: if it had a white spot on a black dog 453 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: looked identical to a lab, she'd just died the hair. 454 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: She would die the hair so it would turn it black, 455 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: and you wouldn't know how the white spot on her? 456 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: And how long did the dog business go on until 457 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: it burned? Whatever? We came home from Columbus one night, 458 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: late at night, and it was laying in ashes all 459 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: four dog kennels. How many dogs close to a hundred? 460 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: Did you ever find out? How that dog kill burn? 461 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: But the fires didn't stop? George said his parents burnt 462 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: the Kentucky Wonder Mansion in two thousand and seven. When 463 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: his parents considered moving to Alaska. However, they decided to 464 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,959 Speaker 1: stay in Ohio and built a new house, which contained 465 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: a special room in the basement for a new business 466 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: opportunity with Chris Roden Senior. All right, what was that? It? 467 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: Was used for girl marijuana. Explain that it was ten 468 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: foot wide by forty foot long. All right, and were 469 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: you ever in the room? Why no, I don't agree 470 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: with drugs. George also testified that his family once stole 471 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: a truckload of boots. From the beginning, my father and 472 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: other people that he drove with had two choices. Basically, 473 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: they were either going to take a load of diapers 474 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: or a load of rocky boots. Who actually hooked the trailer? 475 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: I can't say. I was not there. I don't know 476 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: who hooked it. But the plan was either the diapers 477 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: or the boots. My mother was pushing for the diapers, 478 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: and my father and his friends all wanted the boots, 479 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: so my mother sided with them, and they went with 480 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 1: the boots. Okay, so whatever. Then the boots showed up 481 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: and my dad's friends and hit their family. My dad 482 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: and my brother and I and my mom unloaded the trailer. 483 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: So what happened? We unloaded it? He got divided three ways, 484 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: and then they hauled a trailer out. Why everybody hauled 485 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: their boots to whoever's house they were going to? And 486 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,719 Speaker 1: how many boots are we talking about? Fifty three? One 487 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: or two? Load thousands, thousands, Yes, and your mom was 488 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: involved in them. Yes, she helped planet, She helped planet. Yes, 489 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: And so did you guys get some of the boots. 490 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: Everybody in Pike County was wearing Rocky boots at that point. 491 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: Are you aware of any other deaths between two thousand 492 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: and five twenty fourteen? And fruit mom or dad or families? 493 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: How many do you want me to go into? Because 494 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: I can go for days. George Wagner detailed many other 495 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: crimes his family committed, from stealing Dell computers to copper 496 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: wiring after the atoms were sold. George that his father, 497 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, would hide money around the country. Did your 498 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: dad would tell you something about a pension planet? My 499 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: father used to say that he buried money across the 500 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: US in different spots. What do you mean by when 501 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: he get big, big loads of stuff that he would 502 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: take in all too, Mexico and cell He would take 503 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,959 Speaker 1: the money and bury it. Where would he bury it? 504 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: Can't say that just now somewhere between here in Texas, 505 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: That's what he vote. He said multiple places. So if 506 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: I understand here, he would take a load of copper aluminum, 507 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: think and he would come back. Yes, Well, would you 508 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: come back with brown paper bags full of money? How 509 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: much money? We're twent one hundred and two hundred thousand, 510 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: depending on what the price of scrap was at that time. 511 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: How do you know, because my brother and I would 512 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: count it. That was your job. Yes, to count that one. Yes, 513 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: here again, Stephanie and Jeff. This is pretty shocking. It's 514 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: a pretty wild detail. Two hundred thousand dollars in a 515 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: little brown bag is a lot of cash. So you're 516 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: buying scraps, You're stealing scraps of aluminum and copper, and 517 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: then hiding the money in various places throughout the country. 518 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: It's a big plan. It shows a lot of thinking. 519 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: By the way, if any of the wagoners were using 520 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: some of these clever ways of making money, Lee, imagine 521 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: how successful they would be. It takes a lot of 522 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: thought and preparation and care to even come up with 523 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: the plan to be able to hide money in various 524 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: parts of the country. And all of the stealing and 525 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: the thieving and the arson and the receipts, it's just 526 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: all used for bad. Does that mean it's not such 527 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: a leap to imagine them as murderers? Maybe not? Where 528 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: I think George Wagner's testimony goes a little off the 529 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: rails is this section about bearing money and all of 530 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: the things, because to me, it just makes the whole 531 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: family only seem more out of their minds, and they 532 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: looked at themselves as this criminal enterprise who everyone was 533 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: out to get them, and they were being trailed and 534 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: tracked at all moments of the day, so much so 535 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: that they had to hide money across the country and 536 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: brown paper bags. It only to me adds to the 537 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,959 Speaker 1: level of depravity and true lunacy that was going on 538 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: inside this home that, by all accounts, George Wagner the 539 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: fourth was very much a part of Let's stop here 540 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:08,719 Speaker 1: for another break. Despite being close to his father as 541 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: a young boy, the pair grew apart when George was 542 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: a teenager and after his father, Billy, began driving long 543 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: haul truck roots after the dog kennels burned the last one. Um, 544 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: my father started driving the truck. And did you notice 545 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: that it changes in your father after he started driving. Yes, 546 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: my father had a habit of wanting to be identical 547 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: to whoever he takes to the father figure at the time. 548 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: He has daddy issues. Okay, and so when he started 549 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: driving truck, did you notice the change. Yes, the guy 550 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: he was driving with U took multiple different things to 551 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: stay awake, and my father couldn't keep up with him, 552 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: so he started doing the same thing. What do you 553 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: mean he started doing the same He would take what 554 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: the guy he was driving with was taking multiple handfuls 555 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: of atfects and paint pills. And did you notice any 556 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: changes in his pa? It made him very irritable, hard 557 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: to be around. Did that cause any problems in your relationship? 558 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: A lot? He said he had a tumultuous relationship with 559 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: his father, Billy, and recalled three fist fights they got 560 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: into over the years. My brother ran me over with 561 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: my own truck when he was tried to hook up 562 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: a trailer and I was yelling at my brother, and 563 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: for some reason, my father went off on me, and 564 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: he said, your brother, Randy Lowell, was at a purpose 565 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: or an accident. He was not paying attention. Were you injured? 566 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: Not really, just a little black and blue, right, And 567 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: so what happened My father thought I was just yelling 568 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: at my brother for their reason, and pushed you up 569 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: against my truck and dared me to hitting and you 570 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: were sixteen, Yes, so whatever. I was just fed up 571 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: with it. So I hit him. I hauled off and 572 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: hit him with your fist. Yes, what happened? Then he 573 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: hit the ground and he got back up and we 574 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: went into a fist fight. How long was that? Few 575 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: minutes till my mother broke it up? And so did 576 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: that first fist fight affect your relationship with your day? 577 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,879 Speaker 1: We didn't speak for a few weeks after that, And 578 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: so were there other instances or other times when you 579 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: got into a fight with your dad? Yes? Three? Three more? 580 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: I remember two more fist fights and one that was 581 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: just like a massive verbal argument. He called me dumb, 582 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: say I wouldn't listen, call me ignorant all the time. 583 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: Now worry about in my late teens. So what happened there? 584 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:38,959 Speaker 1: I hit him again? Yes? What? We got into another 585 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: fist fight for four or five minutes until it en 586 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: didn't Did that affect your relationship? Another three or four 587 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: weeks and they're talking to each other. In early twenty sixteen, 588 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,919 Speaker 1: there was another fight between George and Billy. This one 589 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: nearly turned deadly. My father got upset and while I 590 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: was leaving and broke the passenger's side window out the 591 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: truck and shattered me a glass. How did he do? Yeah, 592 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: he punched the window and then my r was kept 593 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: on my dash. He grabbed it and threw it across 594 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: the yard into the dog pins an fifteen. Yes, and 595 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 1: so he broke out those passenger side window and grabbed 596 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: her gun that was on the dash. Yes, and so 597 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: what happened after he threw your I got upset because 598 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: he just threw my arm. But I just recently bought 599 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: a few months prior, and me and my father went 600 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: to another fistfight. What happened not to really go into 601 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: a lot of detail, but my father lost. So did 602 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: that affect your relationship? Yes, we went over two months 603 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: without speaking. I want to say more on that next time. 604 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow 605 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pipedon Masker 606 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, 607 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed 608 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: by Jeff Tis, Music by Jared Aston. The piked Inmasacer 609 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts, 610 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 611 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.