WEBVTT - Grieving the Future You Imagined with Dr. Maya Shankar 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.599 At nine, I auditioned for the Juilliard School of Music 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:05.560 in New York. I would have ten hours of classes. 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:08.799 I was achieving my big dreams until one day I 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:13.360 heard a popping sound, and doctors eventually told me that 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.480 it was a career ending injury. Without it, I wasn't 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.520 sure anymore who I was and who I could be. 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.960 Maya Shanka is a cognitive scientist who studies how our 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.040 identities are formed, how they break, and how we rebuild 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:28.400 after life doesn't go to plan. But what makes Maya 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.400 so special is the way she translates complex science into 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:32.600 deeply human insight. 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:35.080 A reason that we might not feel as connected to 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.800 one another from my vantage point as a cognitive scientist, 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.120 is that we haven't figured out a deeper version of 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:43.720 our identity. When we think about self identity, we have 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:45.760 to remember that, of course, it serves a lot of 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.640 purpose in our lives. The challenge, though, is that when 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.880 life makes other plans, change can serve as a moment 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.520 of revelation for people. At the beginning of the change. 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:56.600 If you're feeling daunted by it and you think I 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.320 can't possibly get through this change, don't forget that the 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:02.840 person enduring. It will be different from the person you 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:05.280 are right now. There is going to be a new 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:07.440 version of Rady on the other side of change, who 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.080 is different in ways that are likely to be extraordinary. 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.320 I'm Rady Wukah and on my podcast A Really Good Cry, 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:18.199 we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:22.360 for raw, unfielded conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.480 to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together. Maya, 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:28.240 thank you so much for coming on to A Really 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:30.440 Good Cry. I'm so excited to have you here. 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:32.520 Thanks for having me Raddy, It's such a pleasure. 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:34.440 I know you went on Jay's podcast. We're just talking 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:36.800 about Amaya has been on Jay's podcast how many years ago, 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.520 twenty twenty one, twenty twenty one, And when I mentioned 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:42.440 that I was having Maya on my podcast to Jay, 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.840 he was like, she is the sweetest person. He was like, 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.240 I'm so excited you're having her on and make sure 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.440 I'm here when she comes. And he doesn't usually say 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.080 that about my guest because he doesn't usually know them, 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.160 but he absolutely adores you, and he was so excited. 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.200 So I'm really really happy we get to have this conversation, 0:01:59.400 --> 0:01:59.880 I'm glad too. 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.520 And as I was also saying before we started recording, 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.360 when I came by your place for Jay's podcast, you 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.840 open the door and I just felt like, oh my god, 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.240 I'm encountering a truly special human being. You had so 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:17.160 much warmth and radiance, and despite the fact that I 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.600 was a stranger to you, you immediately made me feel 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.760 so accepted and like, what an incredible gift that you 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:26.720 can give to people that you meet in your life, 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.360 that kind of love and attention and care. And so 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:32.919 it's so rare that I have an encounter with someone 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:34.600 who makes me feel the way that you did within 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:35.800 seconds of meeting. 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.799 Okay me, you properly has made me feel exactly the 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:40.560 same way about you. I'm not just saying it because 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:42.720 you said that about me, but I think it's always 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:44.799 you know, whenever I think about energy, I think there's 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:46.959 so much about the reciprocation of it. It's like you 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.720 you only have that interaction with that exchange when you 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.440 also hold those qualities. And I've really noticed that in people, 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.920 even watching we're talking about my grandma, even watching my 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.200 grandma do that with people, it's like the energy is 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.960 always a reciprocal thing, like you can really fill the 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:04.079 blog when it's. 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.520 Not that yes, and when it's not there, I'm like 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:12.399 my brain enters SOS mode, start short circuiting, like why 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.680 is this person not giving me anything back? So it's 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:16.600 definitely a struggle. 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.239 Well, thank you, and you definitely have that energy to 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:21.919 thank you. I wanted to talk a little bit about 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.120 your new book that's just come out, The Other side 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.120 of Change, who we become when life makes other plans. 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.120 Have it right here in my hand, and I had 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.919 a beautiful read thrower, and I would like to kind 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:34.800 of gave me an insight into your life. Number one, 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:36.480 So I feel like I kind of already know you 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.480 before you've even sat in front of me. But I 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.240 would love to go back to how you went from 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:43.840 trying to be a professional violinist, which, by the way, 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:45.760 is incredible. It's one of my favorite instruments. I also 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.400 paid to when I was younger, not to the degree 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.320 you did till I was maybe like twelve or thirteen, 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.360 but you went from being a violinist to now being 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:58.720 a cognitive scientist. So give me the rundown of. 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.840 How that happened. It's a very very unusual trajectory. As 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:03.760 you mentioned, from the time I was a little kid, 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.000 my obsession was the violin. So I remember my mom 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.520 going up to her attic and bringing down my grandmother's 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:13.680 old violin that she had played in India and in 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.520 Burma growing up as a little girl. She had played 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:21.000 in Indian classical style, and my older three siblings had 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.280 rejected the violin on the grounds it wasn't cool enough. 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:27.799 But when my mom opened the case, I felt something magical, 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.120 and I wonder, actually rothy if it was in part 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:34.960 because I was so close with my grandmother. Whenever we 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:38.680 would visit her during our summer vacations to India, we 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.159 were just attached at the hip. So I would sleep 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.040 next to her on the linoleum floor with our sorry 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.840 cloths folded up with pillows. And when she would go 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.640 into the pooja room, the prayer room, I would sit 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.120 next to her and just try to emulate her rocking motions. 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:53.440 And I would stand next to her in the kitchen 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.960 when she was cooking delicious meals. So I was obsessed 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.000 with my grandmother, and I wonder if my little kid 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.160 brain thought this is a way of bridging some of 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.760 the distance that exists between me and her because we're 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.120 thousands and thousands of miles apart. And so I asked 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:13.159 my mom very quickly for a pint sized violin of 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.400 my own, and I immediately fell in love. So this 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.800 was at age six, and then at nine, I auditioned 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.480 for the Juilliard School of Music in New York. That 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:25.320 began a very intense period where I would wake up 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.479 at four thirty in the morning every Saturday, catch a 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.040 train to go to New York from Connecticut. I would 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:34.240 have ten hours of classes, come home at night. But 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.960 I never ever complained about it. I was never frustrated 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:39.680 by it because I felt like I had found my 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:43.400 true passion. And when I was in high school, For 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.760 those who follow classical music, they'll know the renowned violinist 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.880 Itzac Pearlman invited me to be his private student. 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.640 Wow. And for me at. 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:57.200 Thirteen, that's incredible, And for me that was the vote 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.560 of confidence. I feel like I needed to think maybe 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.280 I had a shit because you know, when you're in 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.520 a pressure cooker environment like Juilliard, you have all sorts 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:06.320 of insecurities. 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:07.600 Cool, So I. 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.960 Did not think in that environment I was going to 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.520 be able to thrive. But when Pearlman took me on 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.960 as a student, I thought, okay, there might be a chance, right, 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.800 And everything was going according to plan, and I was 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:24.200 achieving my big dreams until one day I overstretched my 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:26.960 finger on a single note. I overstretched my pinky finger, 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:32.840 and I heard a popping sound, and doctors eventually told 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:34.560 me that it was a career ending injury. 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:35.520 No way. 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.680 And I was in denial for so long. Right, imagine 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.880 you're fifteen, Your biggest dream has been taken away from you. 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.200 And so I was playing through pain and I had 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:49.720 surgeries and all these alternative treatments and took excess and 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.200 anti inflammatories, everything that I could possibly do to restore 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.839 my big dream. But eventually I had to sort of 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.240 face the facts. And yeah, it was just such a 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:01.320 heartbreaking moment for me. 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.960 Of course, that was fifteen years old. You said, right, 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.480 Oh my god, imagine being in a position where you've 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.320 already had a full dream happen in your life by 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:13.240 the age of fifteen. Right, how did you at that age, 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.920 Because obviously that's an age where we don't often go 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.680 through something that's so traumatic, Like not many of us 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.360 go through things that that you're living life as a 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.280 kid and fine, you have to go to school, but 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.840 not much else happens. And as someone who had to 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:27.440 go through that at the age of fifteen, what were 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:29.800 some of the things that you noticed in yourself? How 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:31.840 did it affect you as you grew up then? And 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:33.720 then how did you end up in the work that 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:34.480 you do now? 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:38.080 Yeah, it's such a wonderful question. Reflecting back, I realized 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:41.760 that there was something really curious about my grief, which 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.960 is that I wasn't just grieving the loss of the violin. 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.160 I was grieving the loss of myself. And I think 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.520 this is common for so many of us. We often 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.800 don't realize how much something has come to define us, 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:57.200 how formative it was for us, until we lose that thing. Right, 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.560 and the violin had almost become an ex of my 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.560 body at this point, right, I mean, to this day, Robbie, 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:05.960 my right shoulder is slightly elevated compared to my left 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:08.560 because of all the hours I started doing this, like 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:13.680 my body literally grew around the instrument, and so without it, 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.960 I wasn't sure anymore who I was and who I 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:23.800 could be. And you realize too, that your identity is, 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.080 in my case as a musician, is entangled with so 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.679 many other parts of your self confidence, in your well being. 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.520 So one thing that I faced a lot as a 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:34.680 kid was I was bullied a lot at school. So 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.360 I was one of a few brown kids in a 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:42.240 predominantly Caucasian community, and the girls in my neighborhood were 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.720 particularly cruel. So I was a very insecure child. I 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:48.640 cried a lot because I was just so I have 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.880 a very sensitive interior and so when they said really 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.960 mean things, I internalized it and I took it as 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.920 evidence that I was broken in some way. And music 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.600 and that musical world was a place. It was a 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:07.599 refuge for me, actually because unlike my hometown, Juilliard was 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.240 an international school, so there were students who had come 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.280 from all over the world who were studying here, and 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:15.400 the color of my skin was irrelevant. I mean, I 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.200 just I felt so accepted and like I really belonged 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.920 in that community. And so that was also entangled with 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.040 my identity. So it's like, oh, wow, I've lost this 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:26.920 other pillar of my life. And so I think that 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:28.719 was the first indication to me. And you know, now 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:32.240 I study change, but that one of the reasons why 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:36.679 change can be so challenging to navigate is because it 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.360 does threaten our self identity. Yeah, it makes us question 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.839 who we are at this really fundamental level. And I 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:46.160 don't think I was prepared for that. 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:51.800 How does someone balance the idea of wanting to be 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:56.000 something attaching themselves to this identity that they desire, that 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:58.959 they really want. And you know, we hear this idea 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.079 of okay, well you have to fake it till you 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.439 make it, or you have to believe that you already 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:05.880 are something before you even go into If this is 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.640 what you want, then you have to almost believe that 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.560 you've already achieved it. So how does someone go from 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.640 having that information where Okay, if this is what I want, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:16.439 it's all I should think about, It's everything I should 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.880 become to then also being detached from this idea of 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.679 if something changes, I have to be okay with it, Like, 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:24.320 how can someone navigate that? 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.920 Okay, that, first of all, that is so beautifully articulated. 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.040 Thank you for asking that question, because you're getting actually 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.880 at the core of one of the theses of my book. 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:35.840 So when we think about self identity, we have to 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.240 remember that, of course it serves a lot of purpose 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:39.640 in our lives, so we don't want to do a 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:43.319 way with these identity anchors either. Right, if you identify 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:47.400 as a mom, or a podcaster, or a writer or 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:51.640 an athlete, it breeds instant solidarity and camaraderie with your 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:53.880 fellow peers who are also in that spaces. Right, Oh, 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:55.480 you're an athlete too. Oh great, we have a point 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.880 of connection. So that's wonderful. What's a wonderful aspect of 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.720 attaching ourselves seting regularly to a role. We also feel 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.120 meaning and purpose when we wake up every day. If 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.640 I'm a musician, I know what my hours are going 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.760 to be devoted to on any given day. It helps 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.319 stave off some of the existential inks that I might 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.560 otherwise feel. So that's another benefit of having a really clear, 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:19.880 strong identity. The challenge, though, is that when life makes 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:23.880 other plans and it threatens the role or label that 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:28.280 you've so for so long attached yourself to, you can 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:32.320 then feel very destabilized. So one insight I've had only 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.240 in recent years, I wish I had had this insight 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:38.240 as a fifteen year old is to identify yourself not 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.440 simply by what you do, but by why you do 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.560 those things. So when I ask myself, well, Maya, what 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:48.200 did you love about playing the violin? I realized that 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.160 at its core, what drew me to it as a 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:52.559 six year old and a nine year old and a 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.400 twelve year old was that it was a vehicle for 0:11:55.960 --> 0:12:00.840 emotionally connecting with people. I was able to generate feelings 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.360 within myself that I never felt before through music and 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.200 to share that with my fellow musicians. Or if I 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.960 was on stage playing in front of an audience, there 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.800 might be someone in the audience that was feeling something 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.079 for the first time that they never felt before. If 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:16.760 I was successful in my role as a musician and 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.840 so forging that kind of emotional intimacy was so special. 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.920 So if identify as someone who just thrives on emotional connection, 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.240 then the question becomes through what other outlets can I 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.720 express this part of myself? So when life throws me 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:31.920 that curveball and I can't do the thing that I'm 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:36.760 doing right now, can I find other means of expressing 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.080 this core part of myself? And I love this insight 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.280 because it's a source of stability when we're in the 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.440 midst of change, right It was a reminder to me 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.720 just because I lost the violin didn't mean that I 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:50.640 lost what led me to love it in the first place. 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.720 That part of me was still so fully intact, It 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.239 was still robust, It could still serve as a compass 0:12:56.280 --> 0:13:00.880 guiding me towards my next steps. That reason, I would 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.600 urge everyone who's listening or watching to ask themselves, what 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.440 is my why? What is the thing that makes me tick. 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:11.200 Maybe it is giving back to your community, Maybe it 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.440 is caring for others, Maybe it's learning something new. Maybe 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.400 it's finding ways for creative expression to unfold in your life. 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.160 Whatever your why is, and be non judgmental about it. 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.040 Is just the thing that lights you up, that like 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.200 made you excited as a kid. Make that a part 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.680 of your identity, because it will be a north star 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:30.720 when you have to figure out what comes next. 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:32.560 I love what you just said. I had so many 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.920 thoughts that came from from those few sentences, And the 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.760 first thing I thought about was, you know you mentioned 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:42.040 how it created a point of connection for you, And 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.720 do you think a lot of loneliness right now in 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.040 the world and in you know, the even though we 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.480 have so much access to so many people. People seem 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.360 to be getting lonely and nonia. Could that be because 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.480 they're struggling to figure out what the identity is. 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.240 I've never thought about that, and I think you're really 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:02.200 onto something. I think think also a reason that we 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.280 might not feel as connected to one another from my 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.360 vantage point as a cognitive scientist, is that we haven't 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.640 figured out a deeper version of our identity. So we're 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.079 always asking kids what do you want to be when 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.480 you grow up? Which is a really harmful message because 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.080 we are inherently implying that it should be about the 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.400 role they occupy, or the label they give themselves or 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.200 the job they do. We never ask them who do 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.520 you want to be when you grow up? And when 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.120 you realize what your mission is, what your purpose is 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.160 in life, right, and this is obviously work that you 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.640 and Jay are doing every day, then you actually feel 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.080 connections across domains, across disciplines that make you feel so 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.080 much more connected to all these people that you meet 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:47.440 in your life. And because of my background, I'm so 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.440 focused actually on what unites us, right. We all have 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.920 a shared psychology, We all often have a common set 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.440 of goals, which is to be kind, to one another, 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.800 to meaningfully contribute to our communities and to the people 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:04.200 that we love, to engage in appropriate amounts of self compassion, 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:06.640 because we often reserve so little compassion for ourselves and 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:08.720 so much for others, And so when we have these 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:12.760 kinds of goals, we realize, oh my gosh, we're actually 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.000 so much less isolated than we think. We have so 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.680 much more in common with one another. And what you're 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:21.680 making me realize in this moment for the first time, 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:23.800 which is why, by the way, I'm loving this conversation 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.680 you're giving me all these new thoughts, is maybe if 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.760 we were to be clear about what our whys were, 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.600 we would start to feel so much more unity with 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:35.680 the people in our lives, even if they are doing 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.040 wildly different things, even if their stories look so different 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.560 on their surface than ours do. We would realize that 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:43.200 there's actually so many points of connection. 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:47.800 Yeah, I guess it's this deep intention behind your identity. Yeah, 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:50.800 I think about even if you have this. I was 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.600 thinking about myself, and you know, I always had this 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:57.360 desire to be adopt and at first it was because 0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:58.960 I thought it was like a prestigious thing to be 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.800 doing as Popla oulature. And then when I realized I 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.440 couldn't be a doctor the first because I didn't get 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.720 the grades for it. The first thing I thought about 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:08.120 was when I know, I want to do something to 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.280 do with children like that was always something I wanted 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.080 to do, whether it was a pediatric doctor or whatever. 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.400 The next thing I decided to do, I needed to 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.360 be with children. I didn't know why I wanted that 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:19.800 or but it was a really deep feeling that I had. 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:21.920 And so then my mum recommended that I go and 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:23.480 do nutrition, and I was like, Okay, well, if I 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.520 do nutrition, I want to be a children's nutritionists. And 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:28.680 I realized a big part of that was because I, 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.120 as a child struggled so much with my weight and 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:34.520 it was something that has definitely shaped a lot of 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.600 who I am, and going into something like that was 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.280 now that I realized something where I could help people 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:43.200 in a way that I struggled. And then I did 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.320 six years of training to be this clinical dietitian in 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:50.160 a hospital. I worked there for less than a month. 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:52.640 I got married, Jay got a job in New York. 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:54.240 I moved to New York. I couldn't do any of 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:56.520 that anymore, and at that point, I felt like my 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:00.240 whole identity that I had built because one was an 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.560 identity of being someone who worked in a hospital that 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.280 I absolutely loved and I wanted to be that person. 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:07.840 I've been trying to be that person for such a 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.760 long time. And then there was also this idea or 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:12.720 finally I think, I know what I want to do 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:14.960 and I'm doing it, and then I go somewhere where 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:16.040 I can't do any of that. I was on a 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.120 spouse visa. I couldn't work there, I couldn't do any 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:19.320 of it, and. 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.880 That slight change of plans. Yeah, exactly, Oh my gosh. 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.080 And in that moment I was like, okay, well that 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:26.760 was the one use I had. What else I'm not 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:29.240 even going to do? Everything has gone. What is the 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.919 point now? And then what I now realize is that 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.080 that intention that you have, if it is a strong 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.840 intention and a deep desire, and if it is beyond yourself, 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.880 A lot of the time these what you were saying, 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:47.040 the surface level identity, you know, things that we create 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.679 about ourselves. It's a lot of the time based on 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.760 the surface level desires of I want these people to 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.240 think this. It's it's a very outwardly thing versus if 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:58.480 you have a thread that can be threaded through no 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.520 matter what job you do, no matter what role you play, 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.119 then you actually realize that that deep desire can be 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.399 put into place, like you said, in so many different ways. 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.240 It can be on an online platform, it can be 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.679 a one to one thing that you're doing for someone. 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:14.639 It can be in the house that you live in 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.159 with your own children, with your own partner, and you 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:21.840 can feel justice fulfilled if that intention is coming from. 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:26.040 The right place, that's exactly right, and it turns out subconsciously. 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.080 I've kind of done this because think about the work 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.600 that I do today. I host a slight change of plans. 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.720 What's at its core deep emotional connection. I get to 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.040 cut through all the platitudes and just get right to you. Okay, 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.080 what was the hardest moment of your life? Writing my 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.120 book The Other Side of Change, where I did long 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.760 form interviewing for years with the same people. That's also 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.720 about forging deep emotional connection. And so I want to 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.640 share one quick story with you, which is I heard 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.200 from someone who he had listened to my ted talk 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.800 and heard about this why versus what distinction? So he 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:02.600 was a Harvard trained human rights lawyer, such a successful dude, 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.960 Rhodes scholar, etc. And then he got plagued by long 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:11.160 COVID and he became more or less incapacitated, right, incredible 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:14.640 amounts of brain fog, unable to perform his daily duties, 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:16.680 had to take a step back from all the legal 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.520 work he was doing. And then he asked himself, well, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:21.919 what's my why? And he said, well, at the end 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:27.359 of the day, I like advocating for underrepresented communities. That's 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.879 why I'm a human rights lawyer. He said, but I 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:31.640 can't do that now. And then he said, but maya 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.080