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Speaker 1: At nine, I auditioned for the Juilliard School of Music

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Speaker 1: in New York. I would have ten hours of classes.

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Speaker 1: I was achieving my big dreams until one day I

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Speaker 1: heard a popping sound, and doctors eventually told me that

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Speaker 1: it was a career ending injury. Without it, I wasn't

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Speaker 1: sure anymore who I was and who I could be.

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Speaker 2: Maya Shanka is a cognitive scientist who studies how our

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Speaker 2: identities are formed, how they break, and how we rebuild

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Speaker 2: after life doesn't go to plan. But what makes Maya

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Speaker 2: so special is the way she translates complex science into

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Speaker 2: deeply human insight.

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Speaker 1: A reason that we might not feel as connected to

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Speaker 1: one another from my vantage point as a cognitive scientist,

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Speaker 1: is that we haven't figured out a deeper version of

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Speaker 1: our identity. When we think about self identity, we have

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Speaker 1: to remember that, of course, it serves a lot of

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Speaker 1: purpose in our lives. The challenge, though, is that when

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Speaker 1: life makes other plans, change can serve as a moment

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Speaker 1: of revelation for people. At the beginning of the change.

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Speaker 1: If you're feeling daunted by it and you think I

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Speaker 1: can't possibly get through this change, don't forget that the

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Speaker 1: person enduring. It will be different from the person you

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Speaker 1: are right now. There is going to be a new

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Speaker 1: version of Rady on the other side of change, who

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Speaker 1: is different in ways that are likely to be extraordinary.

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Speaker 2: I'm Rady Wukah and on my podcast A Really Good Cry,

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Speaker 2: we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space

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Speaker 2: for raw, unfielded conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you

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Speaker 2: to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together. Maya,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on to A Really

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Speaker 2: Good Cry. I'm so excited to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me Raddy, It's such a pleasure.

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Speaker 2: I know you went on Jay's podcast. We're just talking

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Speaker 2: about Amaya has been on Jay's podcast how many years ago,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, twenty twenty one, And when I mentioned

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Speaker 2: that I was having Maya on my podcast to Jay,

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Speaker 2: he was like, she is the sweetest person. He was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited you're having her on and make sure

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Speaker 2: I'm here when she comes. And he doesn't usually say

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Speaker 2: that about my guest because he doesn't usually know them,

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Speaker 2: but he absolutely adores you, and he was so excited.

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Speaker 2: So I'm really really happy we get to have this conversation,

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Speaker 2: I'm glad too.

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Speaker 1: And as I was also saying before we started recording,

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Speaker 1: when I came by your place for Jay's podcast, you

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Speaker 1: open the door and I just felt like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I'm encountering a truly special human being. You had so

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Speaker 1: much warmth and radiance, and despite the fact that I

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Speaker 1: was a stranger to you, you immediately made me feel

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Speaker 1: so accepted and like, what an incredible gift that you

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Speaker 1: can give to people that you meet in your life,

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Speaker 1: that kind of love and attention and care. And so

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Speaker 1: it's so rare that I have an encounter with someone

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Speaker 1: who makes me feel the way that you did within

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Speaker 1: seconds of meeting.

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Speaker 2: Okay me, you properly has made me feel exactly the

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Speaker 2: same way about you. I'm not just saying it because

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Speaker 2: you said that about me, but I think it's always

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Speaker 2: you know, whenever I think about energy, I think there's

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Speaker 2: so much about the reciprocation of it. It's like you

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Speaker 2: you only have that interaction with that exchange when you

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Speaker 2: also hold those qualities. And I've really noticed that in people,

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Speaker 2: even watching we're talking about my grandma, even watching my

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Speaker 2: grandma do that with people, it's like the energy is

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Speaker 2: always a reciprocal thing, like you can really fill the

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Speaker 2: blog when it's.

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Speaker 1: Not that yes, and when it's not there, I'm like

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Speaker 1: my brain enters SOS mode, start short circuiting, like why

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Speaker 1: is this person not giving me anything back? So it's

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Speaker 1: definitely a struggle.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you, and you definitely have that energy to

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Speaker 2: thank you. I wanted to talk a little bit about

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Speaker 2: your new book that's just come out, The Other side

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Speaker 2: of Change, who we become when life makes other plans.

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Speaker 2: Have it right here in my hand, and I had

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Speaker 2: a beautiful read thrower, and I would like to kind

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Speaker 2: of gave me an insight into your life. Number one,

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Speaker 2: So I feel like I kind of already know you

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Speaker 2: before you've even sat in front of me. But I

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Speaker 2: would love to go back to how you went from

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Speaker 2: trying to be a professional violinist, which, by the way,

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Speaker 2: is incredible. It's one of my favorite instruments. I also

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Speaker 2: paid to when I was younger, not to the degree

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Speaker 2: you did till I was maybe like twelve or thirteen,

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Speaker 2: but you went from being a violinist to now being

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Speaker 2: a cognitive scientist. So give me the rundown of.

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Speaker 1: How that happened. It's a very very unusual trajectory. As

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, from the time I was a little kid,

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Speaker 1: my obsession was the violin. So I remember my mom

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Speaker 1: going up to her attic and bringing down my grandmother's

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Speaker 1: old violin that she had played in India and in

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Speaker 1: Burma growing up as a little girl. She had played

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Speaker 1: in Indian classical style, and my older three siblings had

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Speaker 1: rejected the violin on the grounds it wasn't cool enough.

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Speaker 1: But when my mom opened the case, I felt something magical,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder, actually rothy if it was in part

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Speaker 1: because I was so close with my grandmother. Whenever we

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Speaker 1: would visit her during our summer vacations to India, we

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Speaker 1: were just attached at the hip. So I would sleep

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Speaker 1: next to her on the linoleum floor with our sorry

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Speaker 1: cloths folded up with pillows. And when she would go

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Speaker 1: into the pooja room, the prayer room, I would sit

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Speaker 1: next to her and just try to emulate her rocking motions.

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Speaker 1: And I would stand next to her in the kitchen

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Speaker 1: when she was cooking delicious meals. So I was obsessed

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Speaker 1: with my grandmother, and I wonder if my little kid

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Speaker 1: brain thought this is a way of bridging some of

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Speaker 1: the distance that exists between me and her because we're

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Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of miles apart. And so I asked

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Speaker 1: my mom very quickly for a pint sized violin of

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Speaker 1: my own, and I immediately fell in love. So this

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Speaker 1: was at age six, and then at nine, I auditioned

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Speaker 1: for the Juilliard School of Music in New York. That

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Speaker 1: began a very intense period where I would wake up

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Speaker 1: at four thirty in the morning every Saturday, catch a

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Speaker 1: train to go to New York from Connecticut. I would

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Speaker 1: have ten hours of classes, come home at night. But

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Speaker 1: I never ever complained about it. I was never frustrated

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Speaker 1: by it because I felt like I had found my

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Speaker 1: true passion. And when I was in high school, For

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Speaker 1: those who follow classical music, they'll know the renowned violinist

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Speaker 1: Itzac Pearlman invited me to be his private student.

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Speaker 2: Wow. And for me at.

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Speaker 1: Thirteen, that's incredible, And for me that was the vote

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Speaker 1: of confidence. I feel like I needed to think maybe

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Speaker 1: I had a shit because you know, when you're in

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Speaker 1: a pressure cooker environment like Juilliard, you have all sorts

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Speaker 1: of insecurities.

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Speaker 2: Cool, So I.

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Speaker 1: Did not think in that environment I was going to

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Speaker 1: be able to thrive. But when Pearlman took me on

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Speaker 1: as a student, I thought, okay, there might be a chance, right,

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Speaker 1: And everything was going according to plan, and I was

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Speaker 1: achieving my big dreams until one day I overstretched my

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Speaker 1: finger on a single note. I overstretched my pinky finger,

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Speaker 1: and I heard a popping sound, and doctors eventually told

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Speaker 1: me that it was a career ending injury.

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Speaker 2: No way.

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Speaker 1: And I was in denial for so long. Right, imagine

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Speaker 1: you're fifteen, Your biggest dream has been taken away from you.

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Speaker 1: And so I was playing through pain and I had

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Speaker 1: surgeries and all these alternative treatments and took excess and

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Speaker 1: anti inflammatories, everything that I could possibly do to restore

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Speaker 1: my big dream. But eventually I had to sort of

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Speaker 1: face the facts. And yeah, it was just such a

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Speaker 1: heartbreaking moment for me.

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Speaker 2: Of course, that was fifteen years old. You said, right,

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, imagine being in a position where you've

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Speaker 2: already had a full dream happen in your life by

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Speaker 2: the age of fifteen. Right, how did you at that age,

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Speaker 2: Because obviously that's an age where we don't often go

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Speaker 2: through something that's so traumatic, Like not many of us

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Speaker 2: go through things that that you're living life as a

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Speaker 2: kid and fine, you have to go to school, but

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Speaker 2: not much else happens. And as someone who had to

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Speaker 2: go through that at the age of fifteen, what were

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Speaker 2: some of the things that you noticed in yourself? How

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Speaker 2: did it affect you as you grew up then? And

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Speaker 2: then how did you end up in the work that

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Speaker 2: you do now?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a wonderful question. Reflecting back, I realized

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Speaker 1: that there was something really curious about my grief, which

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Speaker 1: is that I wasn't just grieving the loss of the violin.

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Speaker 1: I was grieving the loss of myself. And I think

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Speaker 1: this is common for so many of us. We often

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Speaker 1: don't realize how much something has come to define us,

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Speaker 1: how formative it was for us, until we lose that thing. Right,

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Speaker 1: and the violin had almost become an ex of my

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Speaker 1: body at this point, right, I mean, to this day, Robbie,

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Speaker 1: my right shoulder is slightly elevated compared to my left

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Speaker 1: because of all the hours I started doing this, like

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Speaker 1: my body literally grew around the instrument, and so without it,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure anymore who I was and who I

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Speaker 1: could be. And you realize too, that your identity is,

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Speaker 1: in my case as a musician, is entangled with so

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Speaker 1: many other parts of your self confidence, in your well being.

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Speaker 1: So one thing that I faced a lot as a

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Speaker 1: kid was I was bullied a lot at school. So

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Speaker 1: I was one of a few brown kids in a

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Speaker 1: predominantly Caucasian community, and the girls in my neighborhood were

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Speaker 1: particularly cruel. So I was a very insecure child. I

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Speaker 1: cried a lot because I was just so I have

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Speaker 1: a very sensitive interior and so when they said really

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Speaker 1: mean things, I internalized it and I took it as

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Speaker 1: evidence that I was broken in some way. And music

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Speaker 1: and that musical world was a place. It was a

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Speaker 1: refuge for me, actually because unlike my hometown, Juilliard was

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Speaker 1: an international school, so there were students who had come

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Speaker 1: from all over the world who were studying here, and

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Speaker 1: the color of my skin was irrelevant. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: just I felt so accepted and like I really belonged

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Speaker 1: in that community. And so that was also entangled with

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Speaker 1: my identity. So it's like, oh, wow, I've lost this

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Speaker 1: other pillar of my life. And so I think that

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Speaker 1: was the first indication to me. And you know, now

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Speaker 1: I study change, but that one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: change can be so challenging to navigate is because it

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Speaker 1: does threaten our self identity. Yeah, it makes us question

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Speaker 1: who we are at this really fundamental level. And I

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Speaker 1: don't think I was prepared for that.

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Speaker 2: How does someone balance the idea of wanting to be

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Speaker 2: something attaching themselves to this identity that they desire, that

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Speaker 2: they really want. And you know, we hear this idea

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Speaker 2: of okay, well you have to fake it till you

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Speaker 2: make it, or you have to believe that you already

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Speaker 2: are something before you even go into If this is

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Speaker 2: what you want, then you have to almost believe that

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Speaker 2: you've already achieved it. So how does someone go from

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Speaker 2: having that information where Okay, if this is what I want,

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Speaker 2: it's all I should think about, It's everything I should

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Speaker 2: become to then also being detached from this idea of

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Speaker 2: if something changes, I have to be okay with it, Like,

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Speaker 2: how can someone navigate that?

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Speaker 1: Okay, that, first of all, that is so beautifully articulated.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for asking that question, because you're getting actually

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Speaker 1: at the core of one of the theses of my book.

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Speaker 1: So when we think about self identity, we have to

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Speaker 1: remember that, of course it serves a lot of purpose

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Speaker 1: in our lives, so we don't want to do a

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Speaker 1: way with these identity anchors either. Right, if you identify

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Speaker 1: as a mom, or a podcaster, or a writer or

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Speaker 1: an athlete, it breeds instant solidarity and camaraderie with your

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Speaker 1: fellow peers who are also in that spaces. Right, Oh,

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Speaker 1: you're an athlete too. Oh great, we have a point

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Speaker 1: of connection. So that's wonderful. What's a wonderful aspect of

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Speaker 1: attaching ourselves seting regularly to a role. We also feel

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Speaker 1: meaning and purpose when we wake up every day. If

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Speaker 1: I'm a musician, I know what my hours are going

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Speaker 1: to be devoted to on any given day. It helps

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Speaker 1: stave off some of the existential inks that I might

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Speaker 1: otherwise feel. So that's another benefit of having a really clear,

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Speaker 1: strong identity. The challenge, though, is that when life makes

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Speaker 1: other plans and it threatens the role or label that

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Speaker 1: you've so for so long attached yourself to, you can

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Speaker 1: then feel very destabilized. So one insight I've had only

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Speaker 1: in recent years, I wish I had had this insight

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Speaker 1: as a fifteen year old is to identify yourself not

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Speaker 1: simply by what you do, but by why you do

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Speaker 1: those things. So when I ask myself, well, Maya, what

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Speaker 1: did you love about playing the violin? I realized that

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Speaker 1: at its core, what drew me to it as a

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Speaker 1: six year old and a nine year old and a

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Speaker 1: twelve year old was that it was a vehicle for

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Speaker 1: emotionally connecting with people. I was able to generate feelings

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Speaker 1: within myself that I never felt before through music and

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Speaker 1: to share that with my fellow musicians. Or if I

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Speaker 1: was on stage playing in front of an audience, there

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Speaker 1: might be someone in the audience that was feeling something

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Speaker 1: for the first time that they never felt before. If

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Speaker 1: I was successful in my role as a musician and

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Speaker 1: so forging that kind of emotional intimacy was so special.

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Speaker 1: So if identify as someone who just thrives on emotional connection,

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Speaker 1: then the question becomes through what other outlets can I

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Speaker 1: express this part of myself? So when life throws me

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Speaker 1: that curveball and I can't do the thing that I'm

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Speaker 1: doing right now, can I find other means of expressing

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Speaker 1: this core part of myself? And I love this insight

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Speaker 1: because it's a source of stability when we're in the

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Speaker 1: midst of change, right It was a reminder to me

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Speaker 1: just because I lost the violin didn't mean that I

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Speaker 1: lost what led me to love it in the first place.

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Speaker 1: That part of me was still so fully intact, It

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Speaker 1: was still robust, It could still serve as a compass

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Speaker 1: guiding me towards my next steps. That reason, I would

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Speaker 1: urge everyone who's listening or watching to ask themselves, what

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Speaker 1: is my why? What is the thing that makes me tick.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it is giving back to your community, Maybe it

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Speaker 1: is caring for others, Maybe it's learning something new. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it's finding ways for creative expression to unfold in your life.

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Speaker 1: Whatever your why is, and be non judgmental about it.

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Speaker 1: Is just the thing that lights you up, that like

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Speaker 1: made you excited as a kid. Make that a part

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Speaker 1: of your identity, because it will be a north star

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Speaker 1: when you have to figure out what comes next.

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Speaker 2: I love what you just said. I had so many

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Speaker 2: thoughts that came from from those few sentences, And the

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Speaker 2: first thing I thought about was, you know you mentioned

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Speaker 2: how it created a point of connection for you, And

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Speaker 2: do you think a lot of loneliness right now in

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Speaker 2: the world and in you know, the even though we

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Speaker 2: have so much access to so many people. People seem

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Speaker 2: to be getting lonely and nonia. Could that be because

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Speaker 2: they're struggling to figure out what the identity is.

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Speaker 1: I've never thought about that, and I think you're really

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Speaker 1: onto something. I think think also a reason that we

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Speaker 1: might not feel as connected to one another from my

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Speaker 1: vantage point as a cognitive scientist, is that we haven't

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Speaker 1: figured out a deeper version of our identity. So we're

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Speaker 1: always asking kids what do you want to be when

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Speaker 1: you grow up? Which is a really harmful message because

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Speaker 1: we are inherently implying that it should be about the

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Speaker 1: role they occupy, or the label they give themselves or

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Speaker 1: the job they do. We never ask them who do

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Speaker 1: you want to be when you grow up? And when

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Speaker 1: you realize what your mission is, what your purpose is

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Speaker 1: in life, right, and this is obviously work that you

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Speaker 1: and Jay are doing every day, then you actually feel

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Speaker 1: connections across domains, across disciplines that make you feel so

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Speaker 1: much more connected to all these people that you meet

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Speaker 1: in your life. And because of my background, I'm so

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Speaker 1: focused actually on what unites us, right. We all have

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Speaker 1: a shared psychology, We all often have a common set

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Speaker 1: of goals, which is to be kind, to one another,

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Speaker 1: to meaningfully contribute to our communities and to the people

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Speaker 1: that we love, to engage in appropriate amounts of self compassion,

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Speaker 1: because we often reserve so little compassion for ourselves and

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Speaker 1: so much for others, And so when we have these

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Speaker 1: kinds of goals, we realize, oh my gosh, we're actually

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Speaker 1: so much less isolated than we think. We have so

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Speaker 1: much more in common with one another. And what you're

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Speaker 1: making me realize in this moment for the first time,

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Speaker 1: which is why, by the way, I'm loving this conversation

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Speaker 1: you're giving me all these new thoughts, is maybe if

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Speaker 1: we were to be clear about what our whys were,

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Speaker 1: we would start to feel so much more unity with

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Speaker 1: the people in our lives, even if they are doing

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Speaker 1: wildly different things, even if their stories look so different

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Speaker 1: on their surface than ours do. We would realize that

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Speaker 1: there's actually so many points of connection.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it's this deep intention behind your identity. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think about even if you have this. I was

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Speaker 2: thinking about myself, and you know, I always had this

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Speaker 2: desire to be adopt and at first it was because

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Speaker 2: I thought it was like a prestigious thing to be

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Speaker 2: doing as Popla oulature. And then when I realized I

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Speaker 2: couldn't be a doctor the first because I didn't get

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Speaker 2: the grades for it. The first thing I thought about

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Speaker 2: was when I know, I want to do something to

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Speaker 2: do with children like that was always something I wanted

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Speaker 2: to do, whether it was a pediatric doctor or whatever.

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Speaker 2: The next thing I decided to do, I needed to

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Speaker 2: be with children. I didn't know why I wanted that

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Speaker 2: or but it was a really deep feeling that I had.

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Speaker 2: And so then my mum recommended that I go and

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Speaker 2: do nutrition, and I was like, Okay, well, if I

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Speaker 2: do nutrition, I want to be a children's nutritionists. And

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Speaker 2: I realized a big part of that was because I,

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Speaker 2: as a child struggled so much with my weight and

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Speaker 2: it was something that has definitely shaped a lot of

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Speaker 2: who I am, and going into something like that was

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Speaker 2: now that I realized something where I could help people

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Speaker 2: in a way that I struggled. And then I did

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Speaker 2: six years of training to be this clinical dietitian in

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Speaker 2: a hospital. I worked there for less than a month.

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Speaker 2: I got married, Jay got a job in New York.

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Speaker 2: I moved to New York. I couldn't do any of

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Speaker 2: that anymore, and at that point, I felt like my

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Speaker 2: whole identity that I had built because one was an

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Speaker 2: identity of being someone who worked in a hospital that

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Speaker 2: I absolutely loved and I wanted to be that person.

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Speaker 2: I've been trying to be that person for such a

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Speaker 2: long time. And then there was also this idea or

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Speaker 2: finally I think, I know what I want to do

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Speaker 2: and I'm doing it, and then I go somewhere where

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Speaker 2: I can't do any of that. I was on a

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Speaker 2: spouse visa. I couldn't work there, I couldn't do any

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Speaker 2: of it, and.

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Speaker 1: That slight change of plans. Yeah, exactly, Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: And in that moment I was like, okay, well that

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Speaker 2: was the one use I had. What else I'm not

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Speaker 2: even going to do? Everything has gone. What is the

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Speaker 2: point now? And then what I now realize is that

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Speaker 2: that intention that you have, if it is a strong

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Speaker 2: intention and a deep desire, and if it is beyond yourself,

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Speaker 2: A lot of the time these what you were saying,

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Speaker 2: the surface level identity, you know, things that we create

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Speaker 2: about ourselves. It's a lot of the time based on

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Speaker 2: the surface level desires of I want these people to

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Speaker 2: think this. It's it's a very outwardly thing versus if

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Speaker 2: you have a thread that can be threaded through no

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Speaker 2: matter what job you do, no matter what role you play,

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Speaker 2: then you actually realize that that deep desire can be

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Speaker 2: put into place, like you said, in so many different ways.

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Speaker 2: It can be on an online platform, it can be

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Speaker 2: a one to one thing that you're doing for someone.

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Speaker 2: It can be in the house that you live in

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Speaker 2: with your own children, with your own partner, and you

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Speaker 2: can feel justice fulfilled if that intention is coming from.

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Speaker 1: The right place, that's exactly right, and it turns out subconsciously.

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Speaker 1: I've kind of done this because think about the work

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Speaker 1: that I do today. I host a slight change of plans.

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Speaker 1: What's at its core deep emotional connection. I get to

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Speaker 1: cut through all the platitudes and just get right to you. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what was the hardest moment of your life? Writing my

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Speaker 1: book The Other Side of Change, where I did long

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Speaker 1: form interviewing for years with the same people. That's also

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Speaker 1: about forging deep emotional connection. And so I want to

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Speaker 1: share one quick story with you, which is I heard

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Speaker 1: from someone who he had listened to my ted talk

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Speaker 1: and heard about this why versus what distinction? So he

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Speaker 1: was a Harvard trained human rights lawyer, such a successful dude,

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Speaker 1: Rhodes scholar, etc. And then he got plagued by long

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Speaker 1: COVID and he became more or less incapacitated, right, incredible

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Speaker 1: amounts of brain fog, unable to perform his daily duties,

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Speaker 1: had to take a step back from all the legal

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Speaker 1: work he was doing. And then he asked himself, well,

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Speaker 1: what's my why? And he said, well, at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, I like advocating for underrepresented communities. That's

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Speaker 1: why I'm a human rights lawyer. He said, but I

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Speaker 1: can't do that now. And then he said, but maya

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Speaker 1: guess what I figured out. I can actually still achieve

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Speaker 1: that why by being an advocate for the long COVID community.

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Speaker 1: So now he is all over Scott, Shout out to Scott.

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Speaker 1: He's representing people that neither rights to be acknowledged. He

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Speaker 1: is making sure that he's a spokesperson for everyone who's

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Speaker 1: struggling with the aftermath of a COVID infection. And I'm

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Speaker 1: so proud of him for discovering that there was still

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Speaker 1: some means by which he could express this fundamental part

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Speaker 1: of who he is, despite the severe constraints and limitations

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Speaker 1: he faces.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I think that we, you know, there's so much

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Speaker 2: that we're taught when we're younger, like this is good,

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Speaker 2: this is bad, these are negative emotions, these are positive emotions,

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Speaker 2: And I think that really restricts us in being able

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Speaker 2: to see that the only thing that is constant, as

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Speaker 2: you've said, is changed. The change is something that always

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Speaker 2: always happens. We see, there are things that we've categorized

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Speaker 2: as negative change and things that we've categorized as positive change.

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Speaker 2: And I think sometimes that's where the issue lies. Where

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Speaker 2: something negative that we perceive as negative happens in our

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Speaker 2: life and we think that it is a downfall. We

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Speaker 2: think that we can't go anywhere from it. But what

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Speaker 2: if the thing that you're perceiving as negative is exactly

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Speaker 2: what we're supposed to happen for you to fulfill the

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Speaker 2: dream that you have. How do you help people shift

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Speaker 2: their mindset around change and the perception that we have

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Speaker 2: of things that are good or bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I always say that we must approach change with

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Speaker 1: a profound amount of humility, because, like you said, we

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Speaker 1: tend to label changes at their outset, this is a

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Speaker 1: negative change, this is a positive change. But by and large,

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Speaker 1: most people that I've interviewed have been wildly surprised and

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Speaker 1: kind of taken aback by the events in their life

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Speaker 1: that they assumed would definitely be positive or definitely been negative. Right,

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Speaker 1: the reality is much more complex. So we in general,

436
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 1: and this is what the research in cognitive science shows,

437
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 1: are very bad at predicting how we are going to

438
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 1: feel about future events. So we're bad aspective forecasters, and

439
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 1: we're bad for a bunch of reasons. But one of

440
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: the reasons why we get this wrong, why, for example,

441
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 1: when you first moved to New York you thought, oh

442
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: my god, all my dreams are over. This is the

443
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: end for me, is because we forget that we too

444
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 1: will be altered by the experiences we're going through, that

445
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 1: we too are constantly changing. So there's a bias known

446
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: as the end of history illusion, which says that we

447
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: fully acknowledge we've changed considerably in the past. So if

448
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 1: you showed me footage of ten year old maya twenty

449
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 1: year old Maya, first of all, I would cringe, and

450
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 1: sightly I'd be like, oh my god, I am such

451
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: a different person today. Not even I can't even relate

452
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,360
Speaker 1: to that young person. But if you were to ask me, Robbie, well,

453
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 1: how much do you think you're going to change moving forward?

454
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 1: I would be like, oh, no, girl, I'm done changing.

455
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: What you see is what you get. Yeah, this is

456
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 1: the finished product. Researchers say it's like a watershed moment

457
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: in which we falsely believe that the person we are

458
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: right now in this moment is the version of us

459
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: that's here to stay right, that we're going to be

460
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: for the rest of our lives. But of course we

461
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 1: are going to keep changing, and when we have a

462
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 1: really big event that happens in our life, positive or negative,

463
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 1: it is going to accelerate those internal changes. Being thrust

464
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 1: into a new reality and facing the new demands and

465
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: stresses of that environment will unlock new capabilities, new perspectives,

466
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: new values, ways of being in the world that we

467
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 1: simply never saw coming. And I think there's a lot

468
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: of optimism in that message. And that's what is the

469
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: most helpful reframe, which is at the beginning of a change,

470
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: if you're feeling daunted by it and you think I

471
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 1: can't possibly get through this change, don't forget that the

472
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: person enduring it will be different from the person you

473
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: are right. Now, there's another version. There's a reason my

474
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: book is called The Other Side of Change. There is

475
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: going to be a new version of Rathi on the

476
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: other side of change, a new version of Maya on

477
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: the other side of change, who is different in ways

478
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: that are likely to be extraordinary, right and will help

479
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: you overcome and actually explore new possibilities in the aftermath

480
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: of change that you never saw.

481
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,239
Speaker 2: When you were saying unlock, I was thinking about this

482
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 2: is so random, But I was thinking about those video

483
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 2: games where you know, it's like a supersonic type of

484
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 2: character and collecting all these coins along the way, have

485
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: you seen, And then sometimes they have to like bang

486
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 2: into boxes to collect all these coins, and some of

487
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 2: them have to like do all these things where they

488
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 2: get so flustered and they've got the dizzy spells going

489
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:12,719
Speaker 2: off on top of them. But al those things are

490
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: unlocking all these weapons or these superpowers that they're able

491
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 2: to collect with them to use when the time is right.

492
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 2: And I was like, that is exactly how I'm now

493
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: imagining change to be for a person. When you said unlock,

494
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: I was like, that's such a positive way of putting it.

495
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 2: It's saying that even though it may seem really difficult

496
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 2: and it's there feels like there's a lot of resistance.

497
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: There is something being unlocked in you. There is actly

498
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 2: a new, different part of you that you would not

499
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 2: have been able to access had you not done this correct.

500
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 2: That's really fun to think about. Scary, but also how

501
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 2: incredible that that that can happen.

502
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hope giving because I think one of the

503
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: arguments I'm making in the book is change can serve

504
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: as a moment of revelation for people. So there's an

505
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: interesting etymology. If you just love you do a nerdy yes, Okay,

506
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: I know, I know your listeners enjoy the nerdy stuff.

507
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: When a big negative change happens in our lives, right

508
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: when that proverbial anvil falls from the sky, it can

509
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: feel like we're in the middle of a personal apocalypse,

510
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: right like the world that we came to new and

511
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: feel stable in is no longer available to us. And

512
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 1: what's so interesting about the word apocalypse is that it

513
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: actually comes from the Greek word apocalypsis, which means revelation.

514
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: And so that's really instructive because what it's saying is, yes,

515
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: change can upend us, but It can also reveal really

516
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: valuable things to us about our views of the world,

517
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: things that we might want to question or challenge because

518
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: maybe they're holding us back in some way, aspects of

519
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: ourselves that were previously hidden from view that are now

520
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: surfacing for the first time. On a personal level, you know,

521
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: we talked about my formative experience with change as a kid.

522
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with an adult version of this, which is

523
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: I've for so long assumed that I would become a

524
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: mom one day. It's probably the earliest identity I ever

525
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: associated myself with. And in part I'm sure that was

526
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: because of cultural influences. Right, I really believe I absorbed

527
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: subliminal messages saying like you're worth as a woman comes

528
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: from eventually having children, Right, that is why you're valuable.

529
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: And I also felt an inherent desire to become a mom,

530
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: and I, like you, I love kids, and so for

531
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: so long I have just assumed that one day I

532
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: would become a mom. And over the last seven plus years,

533
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: my husband and I have had a really challenging journey.

534
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: We've had to navigate many obstacles, many disappointments, many heartbreaks,

535
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: and I remember on the night of the second miscarriage,

536
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: when we found out that our surrogate had miscarried and

537
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 1: that we lost identical twin girls, I really did feel

538
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: totally empty, like my life went from color to grayscale

539
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: in a second. And I think that is in part

540
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: because of exactly what we're talking about. And I couldn't

541
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: quite understand why I was feeling like a broken version

542
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: of myself again until I realized that I had, through

543
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: all of these messages over the course of my life,

544
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: felt like I no longer had self worth in some

545
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: fundamental way unless I achieved this goal of mine. And

546
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure that I was carrying that subconsciously for so long.

547
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: But it's only when change strikes and you're forced to

548
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: confront those beliefs that you're carrying, that the beliefs are

549
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: making you feel the way that you do about yourself

550
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: and about the world, that you're really given the opportunity

551
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: to re examine them anew and to start asking yourself

552
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: provocative questions like well, why do I believe that my

553
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: self worth has to come from this place? Why do

554
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: I think that I can't live a full life if

555
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: I'm not a mother, I'm an aunt to six nieces

556
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: and nephews. I found all these beautiful ways in my

557
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: life to give back. I mean this hearkens back to

558
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: the conversation about my why I just love. I just

559
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: love loving. I mean, that's kind of my thing. So

560
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: I can find ways to love in so many other domains,

561
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: but for me, it has served as this really valuable

562
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: point of reflection in My husband and I have had

563
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: so many conversations where he's like, Maya, we need to

564
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: unpack this, like why is so much of your self

565
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: worth tied up in this identity and then slowly peeling

566
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: back the layers and being like, well, growing up, I

567
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: heard my Indian aunties and uncles talking about parenthood in

568
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: this way or that way, and so I just think

569
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: that it serves as a wonderful moment when change can

570
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: where we take a step back and we reevaluate all

571
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: of these beliefs that we assumed were sacred, immutable truths

572
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: about the world that actually are worthy of re examination,

573
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: because in daily life, we're not waking up every day

574
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: thinking what beliefs should I revisit today?

575
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:06,479
Speaker 2: Right?

576
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: And that's why change They bring them to the fore

577
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: and they make them really salient.

578
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 2: That's a first, Sorry you went through that, Thank you.

579
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

580
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: I think it's such a difficult journey for many women

581
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: that go through this. And I guess what a question

582
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: that came from that was you talked about when you

583
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: come to face a challenge, that's when all your beliefs

584
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: are sometimes heightened.

585
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: Yes, and revealed to you sometimes for the first time. Yeah.

586
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 2: But for people who want to start maneuvering this and

587
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: want to start becoming really aware of their belief system,

588
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: want to really start becoming aware of where their resistance is.

589
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: Are there any practices that you've done throughout your days, Like,

590
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: are they daily practices people can do to help them

591
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: navigate change better, or when change does come or fear

592
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: does come, for them to face it in a more

593
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: logical way that benefits them absolutely.

594
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: And importantly, I wanted to make sure that I wrote

595
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: the other side of change, not just for people who

596
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: are in the throes of change, but those who are

597
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: trying to renew a relationship with a past change. Maybe

598
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: they still feel very troubled by it and they want

599
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: to unpack it and understand what was at the core

600
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: of their angst or their anxiety. And also for people

601
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: who are trying to get ahead of future changes. So

602
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: I don't want people to have to go through what

603
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: I went through or many mistakes that I made. I

604
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: want them to learn from my experiences so that and

605
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: from the experiences of the people I interview, so that

606
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: they don't repeat the same mistakes and they're armed with

607
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: the knowledge and the toolkit. So the best advice comes

608
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: from research by economists and psychologists that show you should

609
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,719
Speaker 1: think about your beliefs as hypotheses that should be tested. Okay,

610
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: So one thing that's important for people to know is

611
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: that all of us form what's called the narrative identity

612
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: over time. That is a story we tell ourselves about

613
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: who we are and about how our lives are unfolding,

614
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: and our brains really value you consistency in this narrative.

615
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: We don't like for there to be holes. So you

616
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: can think of the narrative identity as this tapestry. If

617
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: I take one belief and I start to jiggle that tapestry,

618
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: everything kind of gets distorted me. Right, So there's a

619
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: high cost to actually re engaging with our beliefs and

620
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: new but it's such a critical part of the growth process, right,

621
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: And so to overcome this. What you want to do

622
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: is interrogate your beliefs. Like you as a scientist, you

623
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: ask yourself, how exactly did I arrive at this belief

624
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: How did I get from point A to point B

625
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: in my thinking? Would I have different beliefs if I

626
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: had grown up in a different family, or had grown

627
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: up in a different country, or in a different religious environment,

628
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: or a different spiritual environment, or a different political environment. Right,

629
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: you can also ask yourself in theory, what evidence would

630
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: convince me to change my mind? And I love this

631
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: one because it presupposes that you ought to be convinced

632
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: in the base of new evidence.

633
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: Right, get to debate yourself.

634
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And by the way, these are all techniques

635
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: that have proven very effective in the context of influencing

636
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: other people. But in my book, I wanted to turn

637
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: it on yourself and say, well, how can you interrogate

638
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: your own beliefs? And what's so interesting is one of

639
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: the women Ingrid that I interviewed for the Other Side

640
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: of Change, she grew up feeling profound shame around her

641
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: family's heritage, her family's Colombian heritage and the indigenous practices

642
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: that they engage with and she wouldn't share any of

643
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: her family's stories with her boyfriend or any of her

644
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: American friends. She was just very sheepish about it. And

645
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: then she gets amnesia because she has a biking accident,

646
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: and she loses all of her memories. And there's something

647
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: so fascinating about the ways that her memory and the

648
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: order in which her memories return, Her memories of her

649
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: family's story and that rich heritage resurfaces and gets restored

650
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: before her memory of her shame gets restored. Okay, so

651
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: she first gets these stories coming back into her brain

652
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: is flooded with all of these rich like all the

653
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: rich folklore and the amazing water blessings and the tarot

654
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: cards and what have you, and she is just filled

655
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,719
Speaker 1: with feelings of awe and reverence and wonder and she's like,

656
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: I love these stories. Why have I never shared them

657
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: with anyone? I need to tell everyone I know about them.

658
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: And then only a few weeks later does the memory

659
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: that she felt shame about them return, But it's too late.

660
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: She's already made up her mind about that family heritage

661
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,479
Speaker 1: and love. I tried to choose by the way stories

662
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: that were so exceptional in their nature, but wants to

663
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: have a universal lesson that's buried within them. I love

664
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,239
Speaker 1: that it shows that there is such fragility in our

665
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,239
Speaker 1: belief systems. When Ingrid asked herself, why did I have

666
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: so much shame around her family? It turns out that

667
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: when she was a kid, her mom had cautioned her

668
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: about sharing these stories publicly because she was worried that

669
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: Ingrid might face discrimination or some backlash, or maybe even

670
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: violence from people who didn't understand. But young Ingrid's mind

671
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: interpreted that message as a sign and well, if I'm

672
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: being told I can't talk about this, that probably means

673
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with this. And so it was a

674
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: simple misunderstanding, right. And we forget sometimes that our belief

675
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: systems are influenced by who the messenger was, what the

676
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: emotional state was that we were in when we even

677
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: receive those messages. Messages we receive in childhood are bound

678
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: up with our sense of love and belonging. They're especially

679
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: hard for us to challenge in these moments. But if

680
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: we again take that critical lens and we ask ourselves, well,

681
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: would these beliefs hold up with the people that I

682
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: trust in my life? Right? Would they hold up given

683
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: what I know about science and about what the facts say,

684
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: then we get into that more curious mindset that unlocks

685
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: changes in our belief system and in that process you

686
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: might realize, oh, wow, these beliefs were really holding me

687
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: back before. Now I can flourish. And just to add

688
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: a PostScript to that, Ingrid went on to write a

689
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: whole memoir about her family's culture and their history, and

690
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: it was a Pulitzer Price finalist. So turns out her

691
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: stories were globally embraced and I'm so proud of her

692
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: for that kind of internal evolution. And again, that's the

693
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: power of change. It can free you from chains that

694
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: you had needlessly put on yourself in times past.

695
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 2: A great story.

696
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's incredible.

697
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: I wanted to go back a little bit to do

698
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: with you know, I have mostly, if not all, female

699
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 2: listeners in this podcast, and I get a lot of DMS,

700
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: and I have people in my own life that are

701
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 2: really dealing with this identity shift of motherhood and whether

702
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: it's because they've got polycystic ovary syndrome, whether it's they've

703
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: tried IVF once, twice, three four times and it's been unsuccessful.

704
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 2: And I guess something people really struggle with in within

705
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: that is, how do I know when I just have

706
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 2: to stop trying? Like, how do I know that I'm

707
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 2: not supposed to based on my vision of myself as

708
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 2: as part of my identity? How do I not how

709
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: do I know that this is not something I should

710
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 2: keep trying with until when? And so I would love

711
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: to get your perspective on that and to how someone

712
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: can really help the family members going through it, but

713
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: also anything that they can do for themselves.

714
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: I'm getting emotional just because I feel so much for

715
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: people who are in this position. I'm a listener of

716
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: your show, and I loved hearing the conversation you had

717
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: the Jay about these exact topics, and a lot of

718
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 1: people don't understand how much it can ruin a person's

719
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: day to ask them questions like, see, you have kids, right,

720
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: how many kids you have? I'm like, I don't have kids,

721
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: but you're going to have them right? And there's just

722
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: such a lack of appreciation for what we go through

723
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: on an individual level. And I felt so heard. First

724
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: of all, thank you for doing that episode. I felt

725
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: so heard listening to you talk so thoughtfully about this

726
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: topic and to make space for people who are in

727
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 1: many different moments in their journey.

728
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: I appreciate you saying that, because I really didn't want

729
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: to have that conversation.

730
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 1: I'm sure you did. It is such a hard one

731
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: and by the way, one of the hardest episodes of

732
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: my podcast, The Slight Change of Plans I've Ever done,

733
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: was recorded the day after Jimmy and I found out

734
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: about the second miscarriage, and I did not want to

735
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: have that conversation. Right we were expecting twins. I was

736
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 1: over the moon. We were thinking we got to move

737
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: out of our small apartment. We're making all these plans,

738
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: and I remember telling my producer, especially as a South

739
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: Asian woman, I have to do this episode. I have

740
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: to represent people who are in my shoes who don't

741
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: feel licensed to talk about this topic. And I need

742
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: to do it soon, because well, one, I'm going to

743
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: change my mind if we wait too long. But two,

744
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: I don't want to have a polished story to tell.

745
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 1: I want people to hear me in my rawest, most

746
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: vulnerable state, because that is the gift that all my

747
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 1: guests have given me on the show, and I feel

748
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: like I owe my listeners as well, you know, so

749
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: I want to share a little bit more depth that's

750
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: okay around my journey to motherhood because it's a bit

751
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: more complicated. So I did not want to write the

752
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: last chapter of this book, and I forced myself to.

753
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: So every chapter in the other side of Change is

754
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: focused on someone else. The last chapter is memoir, and

755
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: I was like, Maya, you have to turn the mirror

756
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: on yourself and you need to figure out this change

757
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: you're processing in real time and how you're going through it. So,

758
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: in addition to the fertility struggles that I alluded to

759
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: when I was seventeen years old, so when I was

760
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: a college student, I spiraled into a really unhealthy rumination

761
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 1: around my future kids suffering. We don't choose the things

762
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: that we get fixated on. But I had read about

763
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: some hate crimes and I'd watched a documentary, and for

764
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: whatever reason, and I think it's because becoming a mother

765
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: was my biggest goal, my brain connected these dots, which was,

766
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm seeing this child suffer. I want

767
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: to be a mother one day. Oh my goodness, could

768
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 1: I ever tolerate my child's suffering to this degree? And

769
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: it killed me to imagine someone that I love hurting

770
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: in that way, and it made me feel incapacitated because

771
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: there was this tension within me, which is, on the

772
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: one hand, I love children so much and I'm so

773
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: desirous of becoming a parent, and on the other hand,

774
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: I feel things so deeply and I have such a

775
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: hyper empathy towards children to see them in pain might

776
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: literally destroy me. And it threatened my big dream and

777
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: I didn't know how to work my way out of it.

778
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: And it's not one of those worries that just goes

779
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 1: away with time, because my brain, because it was spiraling,

780
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 1: was conjuring up every way that a child can suffer, right,

781
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: And it was so you know, I think as a

782
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: little kid, you just have dream fantasy worlds of your

783
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: future family where you're in with the white picket fence

784
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: and the and the two kids that are super well

785
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: adjusted and they have great friends, and they confide in me,

786
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: and they may challenges and as their mother, I'm able

787
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: to solve every problem for them. And it was just

788
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: reckoning with the fact that the world can be indiscriminately

789
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: cruel and I did not know if I had the

790
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: right constitution to deal with that. And for the first time, Robbie.

791
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: And it's such a joy, by the way, to be

792
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: able to talk about this part of my story, because

793
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to in talking about this book. Really,

794
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: I had to reckon with the fact that this thing

795
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: I wanted so much might not be compatible with my

796
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 1: well being, and I never thought about it that way before.

797
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: I knew women who didn't want kids, and I definitely

798
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: didn't fall into that category. I fell into a different category,

799
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: which was I desperately wanted kids, but did not know

800
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: if I had the right constitution for motherhood, the right

801
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: emotional constitution for motherhood. And we don't talk about that enough,

802
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: that disconn or that mismatch. We're told in society, follow

803
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: your dreams, overcome your fears. And there has been a

804
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: point in my adult life where have I made a

805
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: lot of progress on this rumination and these anxieties. Yes

806
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: I have my husband, who's a relentless optimist, has helped me,

807
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 1: you know, change my orientation and focus on the positives,

808
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: like all the ways that our children could experience joy,

809
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: not just suffering. But obviously I still have that seed

810
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: within my brain and it's a work in progress, but

811
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: I am finally coming to terms because right now I

812
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: don't have children. We've put the whole process on pause.

813
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: We you know, we have embryos and a freezer. We've

814
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: talked about adoption, we've talked about other ways to start

815
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 1: a family, but we are on like a hiatus right now.

816
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: And there is a feeling of peace descending on me,

817
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: which is, maybe it's okay if in life the things

818
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: I want the most I don't actually do because they

819
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: wouldn't promote my well being. What an interesting for me

820
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: revelatory concept because I had never given myself license to

821
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: make that choice for myself.

822
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: For you to be the person that you prioritize.

823
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, because life is full of trade offs. So did

824
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: I feel over the holidays avoid in my stomach? Of course.

825
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 1: When I went to Like Pottery Barn and was buying

826
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: furniture for her home and I saw the little like

827
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 1: baby section, Yeah, it was kind of sad as I

828
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: looked at all that furniture that I realize, but I

829
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: also really care that I'm not anxious all the time,

830
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: and I really care that I have a healthy relationship

831
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: with suffering in the world. And I'm an EmPATH, and

832
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 1: so maybe it's okay. So I don't have global advice

833
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: for when people should stop trying, But I can only

834
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: share my own personal story, which is I never thought

835
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: I would stop trying, and I have now come to

836
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: a point in my life where we decided, officially we're

837
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: stopping trying. Today I feel contentment. I feel contentment in

838
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 1: my heart, and I feel full as a person, and

839
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: I feel that I can live a happy, rich life

840
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: in which I have meaningful connections with adults and children alike.

841
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: And never I never thought that I could get to

842
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: this place. If you had asked me on the night

843
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: of the second miscarriage, like maya, will you ever feel

844
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: whole if you don't achieve this goal? Will you ever

845
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: feel there's anything that redempted that will come from this?

846
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: Will you become a better person on the other side

847
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: of change? Like I would have been like no, no, no,

848
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 1: I could not see that for myself. And that's the

849
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: personal evolution that this book is very personal for me

850
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: because I experienced in an unexpected internal evolution writing it

851
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: and benefiting from the wisdom of the people I spent

852
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: years with in conversation with, and saw myself become a

853
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: better version of myself on the other side of change.

854
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 1: I just did not expect that. RADI there's a freedom

855
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: in that. There's a freedom in releasing yourself from the

856
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: pressures that you have imposed on your life.

857
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing that. I think that's going to

858
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 2: help so many people, because I do believe that it's

859
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 2: one of the hardest decisions for a woman to make.

860
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 2: For some people, it's an easy decision, but for others

861
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: who are struggling and have this identity and have a

862
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: big part of their life connected to it, it is

863
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 2: often a ten year, fifteen year journey that they have

864
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: to go through. And sometimes it's a well, now there's

865
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: no other option, and now we have exhausted all options,

866
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 2: and now we make the decision. Or some people get

867
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 2: to where you have and they think, okay, well I've

868
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,439
Speaker 2: tried enough for it to really wear me down.

869
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's so much Sorry to interrupt, I just

870
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 1: wanted to say, like, there is so much exhaustion in

871
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: this process. I mean, we were at it for six

872
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: seven years. Yeah, and we did initially pause out of

873
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: sheer exhaustion and because we had to take a step

874
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: back and reevaluate our lives and gain perspective, and also

875
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: recalibrate our marriage, because this had been the focal point

876
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: of just about every conversation that we had had for

877
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: so long, and it was that that initially led to

878
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: the pause. But then during the pause, I felt like

879
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: I experienced some degree of enlightenment, which is, oh, there's

880
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 1: actually other reasons to press pause on this. And that's

881
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: not to say again that there isn't profound grief. It's

882
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: just the recognition that there are so many beautiful ways

883
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 1: that a person can live their life. And I had

884
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: been met with lots of condescending, disparaging comments like maya,

885
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 1: you'll never know real love or like true love, or

886
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 1: you'll never know the joy and happiness of being a parent.

887
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: Maybe that's true. But what I can tell you is

888
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: that I love my husban been more than I can

889
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 1: imagine loving a person.

890
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 2: And I have tried, and it's I've been trying.

891
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: And I've been trying, and also like, maybe that's enough

892
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: for me. And also, and I don't think I've ever

893
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: shared this, but there's also a liability in loving a

894
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: little human as much as I would love a little human,

895
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 1: which is that all those platitudes and cliches they say

896
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: about like your heart running outside of your body, and

897
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: you're only ever as happy as your least happy kid.

898
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: Like all of those would be true. Yeah, less happy

899
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: than my least happy kid. And so to love so

900
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 1: blindly and so unconditionally is also scary for me as

901
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: a person, given that I again do feel things so deeply.

902
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 1: And I know many of your listeners in particular because

903
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: you attract mpaths. I think my show does too. They

904
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: will resonate, They will resonate with that which is like

905
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: your heart really does leave your body.

906
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: Yes, I think about you know, I was thinking about

907
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 2: people who are mothers and this identity that obviously is

908
00:46:55,360 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 2: created through having you know, a full human that you

909
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: look after and you nurture and you nourish, and you

910
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: literally grow from being a little little thing to being

911
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 2: a toddler to an adult. And this idea of having

912
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 2: to detach or at least shift the way that you

913
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: are a mother through that journey. And so first off,

914
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: you are the person that is fully liable for this

915
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: child like you, they don't exist without you, yes, and

916
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:29,959
Speaker 2: then as they get older, you know, I think about

917
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: my mum. I think she really struggles with this idea

918
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 2: of taking that away from our relationship and we've really

919
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: created such a great friendship now, but there's still elements

920
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 2: of this which comes out as control for me and

921
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 2: my sister. But this element of I still know best

922
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: for you. Of course, I should be the person that

923
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: you get my opinion. I should be the one that

924
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 2: you know. If I tell you something, it's it's because

925
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 2: I know better. And obviously it all comes from a

926
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 2: place of love. But I have seen that course so

927
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 2: much issues When mothers or parents are unable to see

928
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 2: the change of their child becoming an adult. They will

929
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,280
Speaker 2: always be their child, but their child does become an adult,

930
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 2: and this shift that can happen, and often it makes

931
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: the relationship more and more distant instead of being becoming

932
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 2: closer and closer, which if you think about it, as

933
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 2: we get older, we become closer and closer to understanding

934
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 2: our parents because we're becoming what they were. But because

935
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 2: the adult or the parent doesn't seem to be able

936
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 2: to disconnect themselves from I used to be the person

937
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: that gave you life, and now you don't need me

938
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 2: in the same way anymore. It's a really hard shift

939
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: to make, yes, And so I don't know, I don't

940
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 2: know whether it's even a place for you to give

941
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 2: advice on or or if you have any thoughts on it.

942
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: But it is an identity shift that I see many

943
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 2: struggle with and ruining relationships because of Oh.

944
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: My gosh, my mom so old. I told you I

945
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: wanted four my oldest brother almost fifty. Yeah, my mom

946
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: will be our mom forever. Yeah, that dynamic is never

947
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: going to change. She will always call us, she will

948
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: always share what's on her mind and advice she has

949
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: from us and feedback. Yeah, whatever it is like that,

950
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: That is just I feel like it's just written on

951
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: our birth cert like I'm going to be your mom forever.

952
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no boundaries, like you know, Western people always like,

953
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 2: you know, you have to have boundaries with.

954
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: It, like what are boundaries? Like?

955
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: What kind of what kind of relationship? What kind of

956
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 2: family did you grow up in? Because boundaries is not

957
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 2: something that is possible in mine. Even if I don't

958
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 2: ask for an opinion, I'm going to get it.

959
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: Yes.

960
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 2: And that's a non negotiable. It's not it's not even

961
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: a discussion point. It's a I'm your mother, I'm going

962
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: to tell you. I think I will say you can

963
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,280
Speaker 2: take it on you. But what I mean is take.

964
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 1: It, yes, exactly. One of my absolute favorite episodes of

965
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is called The Devastation of

966
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 1: Things Going Exactly according to Plan, and it is about

967
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: a mother raising two daughters and letting them fly out

968
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: of the nest. And that is the as you was saying,

969
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 1: that's the best case scenario is my kids become in

970
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 1: the autonomous independent they're living their own lives. And she's like,

971
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: and this is absolutely heartbreaking. And so for anyone who's

972
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: listening who's struggling with their parents being like this, send

973
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: them the episode because I think it's this mother actually

974
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: reckoning with that loss and realizing I have to take

975
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: a step back now. As an Indian American, I was like,

976
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: no one in my culture will relate to you, Kelly.

977
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: So it's really nice to hear you say these things.

978
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: But I send it to my parents and I'm sure

979
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: they're just like, what is this? I know, but it

980
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: was at least eye opening.

981
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, So like you to hear that, I keep wanting

982
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 2: to like, I've experienced so many parents that tell me

983
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 2: the way that they are with their children. I'm like, wow,

984
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 2: this is amazing. Yeah, you can do what everyone but

985
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 2: just know that I'm here for you, you know, whenever

986
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 2: you want to talk. Yeah, and there's so much of

987
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 2: me that has this vision of being a mother like that.

988
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: But then I wonder if it's just in my dna

989
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: to not be like that, you know, totally. It's like

990
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 2: this ideal version of who I think I'm going to be,

991
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 2: But really I will probably end up like my mom.

992
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: And I know that I would be that kind of

993
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: mom where I'm like still calling my kid when they're fifty.

994
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 2: Right, like super erotic about my children until.

995
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: Until it is a kind of love and care.

996
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 2: Also feel it's definitely a cultural thing too, you know.

997
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 2: I was thinking about parents and me and Jay have

998
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 2: had lots of these conversations. I lost my grandma this

999
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 2: year and we've been talking about so every time I

1000
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 2: talk about a MIxS grand but we've been talking about

1001
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 2: the idea of loss.

1002
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: Sorry, really.

1003
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 2: This is going to happen for a while. But yeah,

1004
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 2: you know, my dad wasn't. Something happened to my dad

1005
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 2: this year and he's fine, but it made us think

1006
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 2: about the idea of you know, as you get older

1007
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 2: in your thirties and your forties, these are the changes

1008
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: that you have to start getting now, like you have

1009
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 2: to start coming to terms with. And you know, some

1010
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 2: people who'se their parents when they're really young, and that

1011
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 2: change is like such a it's like an explosion that

1012
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 2: happens in their life and as we get older. Obviously

1013
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: it's a natural part of life, but it's obviously the

1014
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 2: hardest thing that anyone has to deal with. Yeah, And

1015
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 2: so I guess my question is around future change. Yeah,

1016
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: and how do people you know, that's one of the

1017
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 2: biggest changes that a lot of us have to go through,

1018
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 2: is the idea of people who've been in our life,

1019
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 2: our whole life, not being there any longer.

1020
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1021
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 2: And I think especially for our generation, it's like this

1022
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 2: is the time you're like, oh, wow, people in my

1023
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 2: family going to hospital more, they're getting more health issues,

1024
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 2: they're you know, they're at the age where they have

1025
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 2: to be so much more careful, and we want to

1026
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 2: spend more time with them because time is limited. Absolutely,

1027
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: But how do you navigate this idea of future change

1028
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 2: that is literally impossible to change, It's impossible to avoid,

1029
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 2: but is the hardest thing to have to think about

1030
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:43,359
Speaker 2: day and day out.

1031
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: Well, for some I'm so sorry for your last and

1032
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: I know the gorgeous relationship that you shared with your

1033
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 1: similar to your grandma. Yeah yeah, And as I was

1034
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 1: sharing that, I was thinking, oh, my gosh, she must

1035
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,720
Speaker 1: relate to this so much. And you're absolutely right there.

1036
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: I think I had this moment maybe five or six

1037
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: years ago where I was like, oh my god, this

1038
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 1: is the age and I was seeing this within my

1039
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: parents and my aunts and uncles and my parents' friends,

1040
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: all these health issues emerge, and so much loss and

1041
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: so much grief. I think one instinct that I have

1042
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: had in these moments, which is not healthy, is to

1043
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: almost preemptively start to detach myself from the people that

1044
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: I love most because I'm so afraid of losing them,

1045
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: and it can lead to an avoidant attachment style, honestly right.

1046
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 1: And it is actually reminding me of one of the

1047
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,720
Speaker 1: stories in the book. This woman Tara. She actually lost

1048
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: her beloved father, who is a veteran of the Vietnam War,

1049
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: to suicide when she was a teenager, and she loved

1050
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: her dad. Tara's dad was her best friend, her role model,

1051
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: her confidant, and to see someone who was the life

1052
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: of the party and were so joyful and so full

1053
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 1: of life, and his life because of you know, profound

1054
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: PTSD following a war led her just shut off to everyone.

1055
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 1: In fact, she vowed to herself as a teenager, I

1056
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: will never love anyone again deeply because the pain of

1057
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: being hurt is just too unbearable, right, I'd rather just

1058
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: not put myself in a position again where I can

1059
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: get hurt. She said. She felt like her heart had

1060
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: been cut up into like a million pieces, and she

1061
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: literally went to the library and looked up whether it

1062
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: was possible to die of a broken heart, like that's

1063
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: how painful it was. And it was actually through another

1064
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: unexpected life change that Tara for the first time realized

1065
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 1: that that kind of distance was untenable for someone like her,

1066
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: that her nature was to love fiercely and to love deeply,

1067
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 1: and that she was going to have to start taking

1068
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 1: baby steps towards facilitating a more secure attachment style. And

1069
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 1: by the way, the research shows it's quite a positive

1070
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: message that we are not destined to have the attachment

1071
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,399
Speaker 1: styles that we form in childhood. So I think there's

1072
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: a popular narrative that if we've experienced that kind of

1073
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 1: trauma in childhood, it is our destiny to have an

1074
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 1: avoidant or an insecure attachment style and adulthood. And while

1075
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: there is a weak correlation between childhood experiences an adult

1076
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: attachment style, each of us can actually take very concrete,

1077
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:36,240
Speaker 1: deliberate steps that move us towards more secure attachment. So Tara,

1078
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 1: with such profound bravery, starts engaging in these small stats

1079
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: baby steps. Every time she gets scared, she just backs

1080
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: off a little bit, tries again the next day. It's

1081
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,760
Speaker 1: all incremental progress, right, There's no silver bullet in this space.

1082
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: And over time she built one of the most robust,

1083
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: secure communities of love that I have ever witnessed in

1084
00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: my life. Her life is brimming with love and humanity.

1085
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: She has a sisterhood when it comes to her friendships.

1086
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 1: She has such loving relationships in her life. And I

1087
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: have been so moved by that example because she has

1088
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: every reason to resist that, to continue to let fear rule.

1089
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: And there's a quote at the end of the book

1090
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: where she says, am I going to keep allowing myself

1091
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: to be open to others but with the risk that

1092
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: it might all hurt me so much? One day? And

1093
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: she said, you know, for as long as it's possible.

1094
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep trying. And I find that so inspirational, because,

1095
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 1: like you, it's just so easy to be filled with

1096
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: so much grief. We almost want to get ahead of

1097
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: our grief. And Tara is a wonderful reminder to me

1098
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: that if we're very intentional with the way that we

1099
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: love others, actually we can do the reverse, which is

1100
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 1: to foster the deepest, most intimate connections. And that's what's

1101
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 1: going to fill us with the least amount of regret

1102
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: when we lose the people we love, because we would

1103
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 1: know that we had given it our all.

1104
00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 2: You know, well, honestly, that's exactly how I felt about

1105
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 2: my grandmother. We had a lot of notice with my

1106
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 2: grandma and it was actually so beautiful. It was like

1107
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 2: that almost I always say, like she had the perfect

1108
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 2: leaving story that you could imagine it was. Everybody found out,

1109
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 2: everybody rushed to her bedside. We had twenty five of

1110
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 2: us family with her every single day. Everyone got to

1111
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 2: spend you know, family members who didn't have a good

1112
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 2: relationship with her suddenly over those months created this beautiful

1113
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 2: relationship with her, one that they never even thought was possible,

1114
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 2: but they found you know, family members who had a

1115
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 2: broken relationship with her had suddenly found themselves absolutely obsessed

1116
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: with her and loved her and wanted to be of

1117
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 2: service to her in every moment. And then I have

1118
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 2: had a wonderful relationship with her and I got to

1119
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 2: spend every single moment by her side. Yeah, and I'm

1120
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 2: kind of good. It was so beautiful, yeah, yeah, And

1121
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 2: it was such a lovely way to have that connection

1122
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 2: with her at the end where no one had regrets.

1123
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 2: Every single person felt like they had this fulfilled version

1124
00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 2: of their relationship that they needed with her. And I

1125
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 2: was thinking, wow, that preparation and all of us having

1126
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 2: the like, what a blessing it was to have that preparation,

1127
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 2: My gosh.

1128
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

1129
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: But in the same way, you can kind of have

1130
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 2: these conversations with your partner, with people that you love

1131
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 2: about what is inevitable and what's going to happen, And

1132
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 2: it's difficult, it is to talk about having some sort

1133
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 2: of preparation in your mind is probably going to be

1134
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 2: a good thing. Like having in your mind and thinking

1135
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: about it, just like you said, it allows you to

1136
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 2: do all the things that you want to. You know,

1137
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 2: when you spoke about your friend and the idea of

1138
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 2: blocking things off. It's so funny. When my grandma went

1139
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 2: into hospital, the first thing I said was, I don't

1140
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 2: want to call her for a couple of days because

1141
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 2: I don't want her to see me upset, or like,

1142
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 2: I don't want to see her right now. And so

1143
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 2: I did everything that I could in the background, like

1144
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 2: helping with logistics, but I did not want to talk

1145
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 2: to her. Yeah, And then when my dad went in hospital,

1146
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't want to talk to dad.

1147
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 2: Don't want me when when you're with him, don't call

1148
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 2: me because I need a couple of days to just

1149
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 2: like think about it and to not feel that upset

1150
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 2: and to become a bit more logical. And I realized

1151
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 2: that our natural instinct is to block off us. It's

1152
00:58:58,160 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 2: like I don't want to be too close to them

1153
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 2: right now because it's too painful. But I think it

1154
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 2: also gives you time to like think about it and

1155
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 2: really prepare and really think about how you feel about

1156
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 2: the situation. And I think those conversations at our age

1157
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 2: are really really important to allow yourself to one have

1158
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 2: the connections that you want right now, but also to

1159
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 2: prepare yourself so that when those moments do come, you

1160
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 2: are able to deal with it with love and not

1161
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 2: feeling blocked off. Yeah, it's like, now that I've deal

1162
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 2: with these blocked off phases, I'm like, hopefully when it

1163
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 2: comes to that time, I will have more open heart

1164
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 2: because my body and my mind have been through that

1165
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 2: process already. But if we don't do that, and we

1166
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 2: and we literally ignore it for our whole life, when

1167
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,919
Speaker 2: it happens, it can completely destroy you and destroy your

1168
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 2: maybe you'd regret so much more how you reacted in

1169
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 2: that moment or how you dealt with that situation.

1170
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a radical acceptance that requires that, which is

1171
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: what I think you're saying. And I mean, what a privilege.

1172
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: I have the kind of end of life that your grandma.

1173
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: I wish that for everyone.

1174
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too.

1175
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: You know, to be in the presence of your loved ones,

1176
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: to die with dignity. It's a beautiful way to go.

1177
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: And I mean, at the end of the day, I

1178
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 1: think that, like human connection is my religion. Yeah, that's

1179
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: what I think the meaning of life is. It's about

1180
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 1: the feeling of being understood by others and allowing them

1181
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 1: to feel understood by you. I think that's what makes

1182
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: humanity thrive. And I think that's what when I'm on

1183
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: my deathbed, I'm going to think the most about did

1184
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 1: I make people feel loved and heard and understood by me?

1185
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: And what you're expressing in the way that you care

1186
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 1: for your grandmother at the end of her life, that

1187
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: you just did exactly that, like you, Yeah, it's so beautiful.

1188
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely was a special time. I wanted to

1189
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 2: go back just a little bit to this idea of

1190
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 2: you know, we spoke about feeling lost than identity, and

1191
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 2: so for some people they're really attached to their identity,

1192
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 2: but for others, they don't know who they even are.

1193
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 2: And so how does someone who feels really lost start

1194
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 2: to even create what their identity is, start to figure

1195
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 2: out who they are, what they love? Like any pieces

1196
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 2: of advice that you have for people who feel really

1197
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 2: lost in their life at the moment, whether their identity

1198
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 2: has been crushed or whether they don't know who they are.

1199
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 1: It's a great question. So one thing you can do

1200
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 1: is travel back in time to your childhood and ask yourself,

1201
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 1: what were the things that I naturally gravitated towards. So

1202
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: when you were on the playground. Was it going to

1203
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: the highest point on the whatever monkey bars or you know,

1204
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: was it going up let or were you like me

1205
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 1: listening to what everyone else was saying and trying to

1206
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 1: get in on like human psychology, how did you spend

1207
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: your free recreational time? Were engaging in storytelling and playtime?

1208
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 1: And that can give you a really nice indicator of

1209
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 1: what the things are that you love. The other thing

1210
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: that people can do, especially if they're going through change,

1211
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 1: is to do what's called the self affrict exercise. This

1212
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 1: is where you just take five minutes and you write

1213
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 1: down all the identities that you value in your life

1214
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 1: that bring your life meeting, however big or small. So

1215
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: this could be as simple as I joined a pickleball club.

1216
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: That's one of my identity pickleball player. Okay, it could

1217
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,959
Speaker 1: be oh, I organized the big sale for our local PTA. Okay,

1218
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 1: I'm a PTA person, I'm a parent, I'm a caregiver,

1219
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 1: I'm the coach of the little league team, I am

1220
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: part of a dance class, or I do you know?

1221
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: For me, it's like I do zoom workout sessions with

1222
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: my trainer. Okay, I'm gonna write that down. I'm one

1223
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 1: of Ma's students, you know, and you write down all

1224
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 1: of these. And you can also if you are going

1225
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 1: through something that's making you feel very disoriented, right you've

1226
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: just lost your job, or you're having trouble, for example,

1227
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 1: in your relationship, what you can do is focus on

1228
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 1: those aspects of who you are that are not threatened

1229
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: by the change you're going through. So, for example, if

1230
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 1: you're in a if you've just lost your job, you

1231
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,160
Speaker 1: might focus on the fact that you really value your

1232
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 1: role in your community. If you are in a tough

1233
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 1: spot in your relationship, you might focus on the fact

1234
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: you really value your spiritual life. Right, I love that

1235
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 1: I meditate every day or I do yoga. By the way,

1236
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 1: I don't do these things. Yeah, you're all hypothetical. I

1237
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 1: wish I could tell you and Jay, but I, you know,

1238
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: a daily meditator, but I'm not. And so what this

1239
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 1: does is, first of all, it allows people to see

1240
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: their identities more expansively. So let me share the personal

1241
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 1: story of I used to be like I don't know,

1242
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 1: so after the violin is in particular, I was like,

1243
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: I don't have an identity. What's my identity? And I

1244
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 1: remember taking a walk with a friend in twenty twenty,

1245
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 1: this is right before the pandemic, and I was like,

1246
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: I have no passions, Like what do I even love

1247
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 1: to do? And he's like, Maya, you love people. And

1248
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 1: I was like, that's not an identity and he's like,

1249
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 1: take it from someone who doesn't love people yet and

1250
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 1: he's not endlessly curious about people. And that really got

1251
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 1: me thinking we can sometimes take the things that define

1252
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 1: us for granted because we forget that other people don't

1253
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 1: have those strengths.

1254
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 2: Right.

1255
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: So, for example, this friend of mine, he loves wood shopping,

1256
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: and I don't think he had integrated that into his identity.

1257
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: But I was like, we'll take it from someone who

1258
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: doesn't like love wood shopping. That is actually incredible that

1259
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: you love building things from scratch, right, And So I

1260
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: think we think too narrowly when we think about self identity,

1261
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 1: and the affirmation exercise broadens the aperture. It allows you

1262
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: to zoom out on your life and to see how

1263
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 1: rich and multi faceted it is. And then once you've

1264
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,480
Speaker 1: got all of those identities now on the piece of paper,

1265
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 1: you can say, well, which ones do I want to

1266
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: lean into more? Right? Oh, well, it's kind of clear

1267
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,439
Speaker 1: I could see connective tissue between these three. I really

1268
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 1: do love being a part of my community. Okay, maybe

1269
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 1: I can actually volunteer for the upcoming New Year's party

1270
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 1: or the whatever Valentine's Day, whatever it is. And so

1271
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 1: it just it gives you a little bit more food

1272
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 1: for thought.

1273
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 2: Oh that's a good place to start with people. Yeah, yeah,

1274
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think sometimes you don't even

1275
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 2: realize the incredible skills and qualities that you have because

1276
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 2: they're so normal to you, like they're so organic to

1277
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 2: who you are.

1278
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. And actually it's reminding me too that

1279
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 1: I think one mistake our brains can make is when

1280
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: there is a seismic shift in our life. So, for example,

1281
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 1: when you moved to New York and you had done

1282
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: all of this training right to be a dietitian and

1283
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, you're coming to the US

1284
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 1: and you don't have your license anymore and you can't practice.

1285
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 1: It's very easy to think that it was all for

1286
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: nought and you lost everything. But you need to remember

1287
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 1: that all of the skills that you honed, all of

1288
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 1: your talents, all of the knowledge you accrued, all of

1289
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 1: your life experiences and the wisdom that you gained as

1290
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 1: a result of those experiences are still fully there and

1291
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 1: are still fully intact and will service you in whatever

1292
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 1: you do next. So when it came to my life

1293
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 1: as a violinist, like, yes, none of the technical skills

1294
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 1: of playing the violin were particularly helpful for me, but

1295
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: all the softer skills I built, like grit, discipline, discipline,

1296
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, so much discipline, routine, responding well to failure,

1297
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 1: you know, like I was criticized all the time for

1298
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: every little micro note that I got wrong, and so

1299
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 1: was I built thicker skin over my fear of performance

1300
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: and being on stage. Those have all been so helpful

1301
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 1: to me in my role as a cognitive scientist, as

1302
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 1: a podcaster, as a writer. Like these are all useful

1303
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 1: general skills. So when you're at an inflection point, ask yourself,

1304
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 1: who else can this person be? This person who has

1305
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 1: had these broad, wonderfully rich life experiences, Like imagine that

1306
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 1: you are an employer who's looking at your own CB,

1307
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 1: but don't just include the jobs you've had, include the

1308
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 1: trips that you've taken and the vantage points you've gained

1309
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 1: from traveling the world or the experiences you've had caring

1310
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 1: for an elderly member of your family, or babysitting the

1311
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 1: kids next door, Like, these are all things that you

1312
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 1: still have with you that will aid you as you

1313
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:46,280
Speaker 1: go next. It's not like a it's not like there's

1314
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: a blank slate and you just have to work from nothing.

1315
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 2: Right, tell me more about you speak about this concept

1316
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 2: of mental time travel, and I really like that. Is

1317
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 2: there a part to play in mental time travel with

1318
01:06:57,320 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 2: trying to figure out who you are? As well?

1319
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I should share that one reason. So we

1320
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 1: talked about one reason that change is scary, which is

1321
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: that it threatens our identity. Another reason why it's scary

1322
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 1: for people like me anyway, is that it's filled with

1323
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:14,840
Speaker 1: so much uncertainty, and our brains are not wired to

1324
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 1: like uncertainty. So one of my favorite research studies shows

1325
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:21,240
Speaker 1: that we're more stressed when we're told we have a

1326
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 1: fifty percent chance of getting an electric shock than when

1327
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: we're told we have a one hundred percent chance, which

1328
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: is it's so wild, right, We would rather be sure

1329
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: rabi that a negative thing is going to happen than

1330
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 1: to have to grapple with any uncertainty. But I feel

1331
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 1: this deeply right. I want to know how my story ends.

1332
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 1: I want to have a firm grip of the steering wheel.

1333
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 1: And so many of us fall prey to what's called

1334
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 1: the illusion of control, which basically just means we grossly

1335
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,440
Speaker 1: overestimate the degree to which we dictate how our lives

1336
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: turn out. I mean, so much of like Buddhist philosophy

1337
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 1: is all about, you know, creating that distance and that

1338
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 1: detachment so that we aren't so anchored on outcomes. But

1339
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 1: our brains naturally want to make us feel like we

1340
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 1: are in control and that we are in the driver's seat, definitely,

1341
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 1: And so mental time travel is one way of helping

1342
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 1: to tame those negative mental spirals that often emerge in

1343
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 1: the face of uncertainty. And so let's say you're navigating

1344
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:22,240
Speaker 1: a breakup. It's not like, well again, if you're like

1345
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:25,560
Speaker 1: most people, you're not just like Okay, now that relationship

1346
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 1: has ended, you've gone to the next one. Folks, you're

1347
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 1: sitting there ruminating what did I do wrong? Why did

1348
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 1: they stop loving me? Why did I stop loving them?

1349
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 1: Could I have been better? Why did I say that?

1350
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that was so embarrassing. I should never

1351
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 1: have said that I'm never going to be able to

1352
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:41,519
Speaker 1: date again, and if I do date, I'm never going

1353
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: to find anyone like them. Should I not have ended

1354
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 1: the relation? We can go crazy in these spirals, right,

1355
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 1: Or if you are a people pleaser like I am,

1356
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: you have a benign but awkward interaction with a coworker

1357
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 1: and suddenly at three in the morning, you wake up

1358
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh my god, I was so embarrassing. Yeah,

1359
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 1: what did I say?

1360
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 2: I should text them? Yeah?

1361
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 1: Do they hate me? Or if they didn't write back

1362
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: to me, are they mad at me? And it's like, Maya,

1363
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,160
Speaker 1: you texted them thirty minutes ago. You need to chill out, right, Yeah.

1364
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 1: And so our brains can just they just can really

1365
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: run away from us when we are in the throes

1366
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 1: of change. And so mental time travel simply refers to

1367
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:22,799
Speaker 1: the fact that our brains, through the wonderful process of evolution,

1368
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 1: have the capacity to both travel forward in time and

1369
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 1: backward in time, and we can use this to our

1370
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:33,439
Speaker 1: advantage when it comes to taming these mental spirals. So

1371
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:36,680
Speaker 1: we can travel back in time to remind ourselves of

1372
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,360
Speaker 1: moments where we were very resilient in the face of adversity.

1373
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:43,560
Speaker 1: Right when we're feeling really weak and like the moments unprecedented,

1374
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 1: we can be like, well, you know, five years ago,

1375
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 1: I went through this really hard thing. I'm hoping one

1376
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:50,160
Speaker 1: day I look back and I remember, well, remember in

1377
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 1: your late thirties when you're navigating all this fertility stuff,

1378
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:55,639
Speaker 1: or actually not even late thirties, Remember in your thirties

1379
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 1: when you're navigating all this fertility stuff, you know you

1380
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 1: were able to overcome that. And so we can do that.

1381
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:04,439
Speaker 1: We can also look back in time to remember moments

1382
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:07,599
Speaker 1: where we were fixated on something and it turned out

1383
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 1: not to be a concern for us many years later.

1384
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 1: We can also move forward in time to remind ourselves

1385
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 1: that the current moment and our current preoccupations are transient.

1386
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 1: So you can ask yourself at three in the morning,

1387
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 1: how am I going to feel about this five hours

1388
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 1: from now, five days from now, five years from now,

1389
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:29,600
Speaker 1: fifteen years from now. Chances are the awkward interaction with

1390
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 1: the coworker is going to be less meaningful and less

1391
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 1: significant to you. Five years from now, you might not

1392
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 1: even have them as a coworker. Okay, unless you're in

1393
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:39,040
Speaker 1: business with your husband like you've been read your teap

1394
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:41,120
Speaker 1: business and then actually, yeah, I used to give you

1395
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:42,760
Speaker 1: a different strategy for that one.

1396
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:44,679
Speaker 2: I didn't like his idea.

1397
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. In addition to the mental time travel thing

1398
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 1: of being like, Okay, this is a transient situation. This

1399
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 1: is probably you know, when you think about yourself five

1400
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:56,720
Speaker 1: or fifteen years in the future, you adopt more of

1401
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:58,639
Speaker 1: a bird's eye view and you can kind of look

1402
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:00,960
Speaker 1: back and see, oh, this was just a moment in time,

1403
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 1: and almost certainly you know I would have entered another

1404
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 1: relationship since then, or at least found peace or some

1405
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:10,320
Speaker 1: degree of closure. The other thing that you can do

1406
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 1: when you are in the throes of those really icky, annoying,

1407
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 1: maddening mental spirals is to coach yourself like you would

1408
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 1: a friend. So oftentimes when we take a first person

1409
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:25,480
Speaker 1: view on our problems, we don't give ourselves any self compassion.

1410
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:29,680
Speaker 1: We brate, we are filled with regret, and because of

1411
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 1: all the heightened emotions, we can't see our situation clearly.

1412
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 1: But if you pretend that you are just a third

1413
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 1: party observing the situation, you will be able to poke

1414
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 1: holes in your narrative, be able to point out, hey, maya,

1415
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:43,719
Speaker 1: maybe you're not really seeing this exactly as you should.

1416
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:47,600
Speaker 1: And then most importantly, you will be able to extend

1417
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:50,560
Speaker 1: yourself the compassion you need to actually move forward in

1418
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 1: a productive way, because if you don't give your self compassion,

1419
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:57,519
Speaker 1: you don't think, oh, I wasn't great in that situation.

1420
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 1: You think I am bad and there's no redemption in

1421
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 1: I am bad. But you would never say that to

1422
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:05,719
Speaker 1: a friend. You would never tell your friend, well, there's

1423
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 1: no redemption for you, you're bad. You would say you just

1424
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:10,800
Speaker 1: acted out of character in that moment. And so there's

1425
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 1: a lot of research showing that again, treating yourself like

1426
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 1: someone that you're coaching, and even using this like very

1427
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 1: small tweak and framing. So rather than talking yourself in

1428
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 1: the first person like I need to get a grip,

1429
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 1: you instead use a third person maya, you need to

1430
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:31,240
Speaker 1: get a grip. That can also forge really helpful emotional

1431
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 1: distance between you and your problems.

1432
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:36,720
Speaker 2: Like calling yourself out, saying your actual name and be like, hey,

1433
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 2: you need to do something about this.

1434
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then it's like, oh, it's kind of a

1435
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 1: different person, but I'm coaching and actually, sorry to share

1436
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:45,400
Speaker 1: yet another one, but this is one of my favorite ones.

1437
01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 1: Which is when we feel negatively. We're often feeling a

1438
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 1: range of sometimes conflicting and often confusing emotions, and all

1439
01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:58,280
Speaker 1: our brains really do is just take a snapshot of

1440
01:12:58,320 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 1: that feeling and say, like, we feel like craft.

1441
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:00,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1442
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 1: One thing that can be very helpful is to label

1443
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 1: your specific emotions with as much granularity as you can,

1444
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:11,280
Speaker 1: so you can say, I'm feeling envy right now, I'm

1445
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:14,680
Speaker 1: feeling frustration, I'm feeling anger, and feeling grief. And what

1446
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 1: research shows is that when we label our emotions, we

1447
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 1: shift our focus away from being the emotion to simply

1448
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:26,320
Speaker 1: having the emotion, and that is another helpful way of

1449
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 1: forging the kind of psychological distance that we need to

1450
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:30,560
Speaker 1: move forward productively.

1451
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:33,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. I guess being the emotion feels very permanent and

1452
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:35,080
Speaker 2: then having the emotion feels very.

1453
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 1: Temporary, exactly. It's not identity based exactly. Yeah.

1454
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,719
Speaker 2: I was thinking about this idea of certainty in the shop,

1455
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:45,799
Speaker 2: and it's really interesting because I feel like us as humans,

1456
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 2: we confuse certainty for safety, and then even if we're

1457
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 2: in a situation that is miserable or limiting, because it's

1458
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:58,759
Speaker 2: certain and because it's obviously familiar, it makes us feel

1459
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 2: better about the unfamiliar. Could you give me a little

1460
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:04,519
Speaker 2: bit more around the science around that and how people

1461
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 2: can push themselves out of this Even if they're in

1462
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 2: a cycle of something that's terrible, it feels comfortable and

1463
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 2: it feels certain, so they stay in it. How can

1464
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 2: someone get themselves up it, whether it's a relationship or

1465
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:17,759
Speaker 2: whether it's a job. And we'll be above.

1466
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I one hundred percent affiliate having clarity and certainty

1467
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:28,680
Speaker 1: with psychological safety. And I feel, I mean, one of

1468
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:31,680
Speaker 1: the reasons, and I should mention that I wrote the

1469
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:34,400
Speaker 1: other side of Change because I'm afraid of change and

1470
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:36,760
Speaker 1: I have not done a great job managing changes in

1471
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 1: my life because I am a creature of habit. I

1472
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:44,160
Speaker 1: like having routines. I'm not super exploratory. I mean, it's

1473
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 1: just my genetic nature to just like comfort, and so

1474
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 1: I don't like it when the page turns and I

1475
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 1: don't know what's coming up next. I like to know

1476
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 1: how the story is.

1477
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 2: I want to get to the end first. I want

1478
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 2: to read everything that happens, and then I'll read the

1479
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 2: rest of it.

1480
01:14:57,200 --> 01:15:00,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly. And what I'm referring to is what

1481
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 1: psychologists call cognitive closure. So we really love having black

1482
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 1: and white answers, clear definitive answers. And the problem, of course,

1483
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,280
Speaker 1: is that when we climb out of the rubble of

1484
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:16,040
Speaker 1: a big change, all we see around us is gray.

1485
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:19,759
Speaker 1: It's just gray space, it's ambiguity. One of the women

1486
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:21,320
Speaker 1: that I write about in my book, which who I

1487
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:24,599
Speaker 1: think gives us a very good solution, is named Florence,

1488
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:26,840
Speaker 1: and she found out decades into her marriage that her

1489
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 1: husband had been having an affair with another woman, and

1490
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:34,640
Speaker 1: she was, of course totally gutted, totally heartbroken. She had

1491
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:37,040
Speaker 1: thought he was her soulmate and he had not felt

1492
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 1: the same. So it's just a crushing blow. And her instinct,

1493
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 1: because she's a science journalist, is to do exactly what

1494
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:45,800
Speaker 1: I would want to do in that situation and maybe

1495
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:47,639
Speaker 1: you would want to do, which is to figure it out,

1496
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:50,360
Speaker 1: to crack the code on her heartbreak right, to get

1497
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: all the clear answers. So she goes on this solo

1498
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 1: canoe trip and she's like, Okay, I'm going to figure

1499
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 1: this out, and we trick our brain into believing that

1500
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 1: if we can just figure out, if we just understand it,

1501
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:03,280
Speaker 1: then I can get over it.

1502
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:04,680
Speaker 2: If we can always say that, I'm like, I just

1503
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 2: need to understand it. If I can understand, like if

1504
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:08,720
Speaker 2: someone doesn't like them, but I just need to understand it.

1505
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:12,160
Speaker 2: If I know the reason, yep, then that's fine. But

1506
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:14,840
Speaker 2: if I don't know, I really struggle to let it go,

1507
01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:16,799
Speaker 2: and I really struggled to work out with it.

1508
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 1: Okay, Like, just tell me why kindred spirits. The worst

1509
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 1: thing someone can do if I've accidentally upset them or

1510
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 1: fund them is to tell me it's just it's like

1511
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:25,760
Speaker 1: a prison.

1512
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:29,920
Speaker 2: And I finally like, well, I was having let it

1513
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:31,519
Speaker 2: go because I'm thinking about it, but like.

1514
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:33,800
Speaker 1: Yes, Raby, can we make a promise right now? If

1515
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 1: one of us ever upsets the other, we are going

1516
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:39,439
Speaker 1: to let the definitely, okay, so you'll never put each

1517
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:45,080
Speaker 1: other through that torture. So exactly, so we it's almost

1518
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:48,360
Speaker 1: like fool's gold though we think, Okay, if I can

1519
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:51,040
Speaker 1: just identify all the things that could hurt my family,

1520
01:16:51,080 --> 01:16:52,680
Speaker 1: I'll be able to keep them safe. If I can

1521
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:56,439
Speaker 1: just identify why he stopped loving me, I'll never experience

1522
01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:58,400
Speaker 1: this kind of betrayal again. If I can just figure

1523
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:02,680
Speaker 1: out what I did wrong and make amends for it

1524
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:05,800
Speaker 1: then I'll never make mistakes again. It's just not true,

1525
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 1: and it's a false sense of closure and clarity. So

1526
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 1: Florence ends this solo canoe trip in a far worse

1527
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:17,040
Speaker 1: place than she started. She's spiraling, She vacillates between thinking

1528
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:19,639
Speaker 1: it's all her husband's fault and it's all her fault,

1529
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:22,400
Speaker 1: and she's just going between two you know, extremes on

1530
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:26,640
Speaker 1: the pendulum. Sorry, and she's just swinging between two extremes.

1531
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:33,040
Speaker 1: And she actually only finds that safety in lack of

1532
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:37,599
Speaker 1: clarity in community with others. So she stumbles upon a museum,

1533
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:39,920
Speaker 1: which I believe it or not, is a real thing

1534
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:42,560
Speaker 1: called the Museum of Broken Relationships.

1535
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not surprised. It's a museum everything these days.

1536
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 1: It's a museum in Croatia. And she's walking through the

1537
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:51,559
Speaker 1: museum and she's going to all these different exhibits, and

1538
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:54,599
Speaker 1: she's seeing herself and her plight and all of her

1539
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 1: desire for closure and clarity and unmended hearts and the

1540
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:00,960
Speaker 1: lack of clarity that these people in the exhibits, or

1541
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:04,720
Speaker 1: these people's narratives are conveying through the exhibits shine through

1542
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:08,240
Speaker 1: to her, and in that moment. She says, just the

1543
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 1: recognition that something that felt so singular and so idiosyncratic

1544
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:17,400
Speaker 1: was actually universal was a comfort in its own right.

1545
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:23,200
Speaker 1: And I think, to your question of certainty feels safe, Well,

1546
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 1: we're never going to get the certainty we want, so

1547
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:28,519
Speaker 1: we have to find safety elsewhere. And Florence says that

1548
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:32,160
Speaker 1: by connecting with others who had been through a similar

1549
01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 1: experience to her and feeling close to them, she was

1550
01:18:35,479 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 1: able to open herself up to the lessons that they

1551
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:40,840
Speaker 1: could teach her. And one thing I want to share

1552
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:43,599
Speaker 1: on top of that is, again, this is my vantage

1553
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 1: point as a cognitive scientist who believes in the unity

1554
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 1: of humanity. We don't just have to seek out people

1555
01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 1: whose stories look like ours. So one of the reasons

1556
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:55,880
Speaker 1: that I wrote The Other Side of Change is because

1557
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 1: I felt like these conversations that I was having with

1558
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:03,960
Speaker 1: people revealed that there were so much that united people's

1559
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:06,160
Speaker 1: stories that didn't look at all the same on their surface.

1560
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:09,400
Speaker 1: So the young man who received a stage four cancer

1561
01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 1: diagnosis and then the woman who found out after her

1562
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:16,200
Speaker 1: husband's passing that he had cheated on her were both

1563
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 1: grappling with a feeling of betrayal right, and they would

1564
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:22,160
Speaker 1: never have sought one another out right. In our society,

1565
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:24,479
Speaker 1: we're told, oh, you've just lost a job. Oh, I

1566
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:26,040
Speaker 1: have a friend who lost a job, Let me connect

1567
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:28,840
Speaker 1: you with them. Oh, you've just ended a relationship. Okay.

1568
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:31,680
Speaker 1: In the bookstore, there's a section for people who are

1569
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:33,640
Speaker 1: navigating the end of a relationship, and we're taught to

1570
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 1: seek out people who have endured exactly the same type

1571
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:40,080
Speaker 1: of change that we're going through. And my argument is

1572
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:44,760
Speaker 1: that because of our shared psychology, because we're all grappling

1573
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:47,680
Speaker 1: with the same stuff of change, and by that I

1574
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:51,960
Speaker 1: mean bristling at the world's unfairness, grieving the futures that

1575
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:55,120
Speaker 1: we once thought were available to us, worrying about what

1576
01:19:55,160 --> 01:19:57,479
Speaker 1: our self identity can be now that we've lost a

1577
01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:02,639
Speaker 1: person who actually really defined us, being concerned about our

1578
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 1: past because now a secret's been revealed to us and

1579
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:07,559
Speaker 1: it changes our understanding of our family. Whatever it is.

1580
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 1: The problem statements are the same, so you can easily

1581
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:13,679
Speaker 1: expect that the solution set's going to be the same too.

1582
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:16,920
Speaker 1: And so the joy of writing this book is that

1583
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 1: even though the people who I interviewed have stories that

1584
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,640
Speaker 1: don't look like the stories I've been through that. I

1585
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:24,679
Speaker 1: found that I had so much in common with them

1586
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:28,240
Speaker 1: and that the strategies they used to overcome their change

1587
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:29,839
Speaker 1: were relevant to my own life.

1588
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 2: I love that you explored so many people's lives, Like

1589
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:34,600
Speaker 2: I think that's such a beautiful thing to be so

1590
01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:37,680
Speaker 2: curious about others. And often we lack that because we're

1591
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:39,759
Speaker 2: so obsessed with our own self and our own life

1592
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:43,240
Speaker 2: and so narrow. We have such a narrow perspective and

1593
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:45,160
Speaker 2: it is so easy to say this person doesn't look

1594
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:47,559
Speaker 2: like I mean, this person doesn't have the same life

1595
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 2: as me, and so all of that's irrelevant. But how

1596
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:55,080
Speaker 2: much we miss out on these experiences, these perspectives that

1597
01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:57,840
Speaker 2: can rich in our lives, if that's a word. Yeah,

1598
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:00,559
Speaker 2: that can make our lives so much richer just by

1599
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:04,839
Speaker 2: having a different perspective, just by having a different story

1600
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:07,240
Speaker 2: that we can't relate to but we can learn from.

1601
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:09,639
Speaker 2: And I think that's what we have to differentiate between

1602
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 2: you me and we have to relate to it or

1603
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:13,720
Speaker 2: you might but you definitely can learn something from it.

1604
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 2: And there's always something you can pull that can be

1605
01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 2: relative to your life.

1606
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:22,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And you know, when I think about so one

1607
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:24,640
Speaker 1: of the people that I interviewed when when they were

1608
01:21:24,680 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 1: a college student, they had a brainstem stroke and it

1609
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:30,920
Speaker 1: left them locked in with locked in syndrome. That's when

1610
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:33,680
Speaker 1: you lose voluntary control over all the muscles in your

1611
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:36,920
Speaker 1: body except for the muscles that control your eyes. So

1612
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:41,799
Speaker 1: you're literally in a prison because your consciousness is preserved,

1613
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:45,240
Speaker 1: all of your thoughts and feelings are preserved, but you

1614
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 1: can only communicate with the world or your winnings. And

1615
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:51,680
Speaker 1: I mean her Olivia's story is so unbelievable, and she

1616
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:54,880
Speaker 1: has an astonishing recovery. But what was so interesting about

1617
01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:56,720
Speaker 1: our story rally and what was so unexpected about it?

1618
01:21:56,720 --> 01:21:59,519
Speaker 1: Because I'm always interested in what's happening in here. I

1619
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:01,840
Speaker 1: am care I care less about the external beats of

1620
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:05,200
Speaker 1: a person's narrative and more about what's shifting within their brains.

1621
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:08,920
Speaker 1: Her story is actually one about a recovering people pleaser,

1622
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:12,720
Speaker 1: someone who learns from this experience how beholden they were

1623
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 1: to other opinions of her, and then she loses the

1624
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:18,000
Speaker 1: ability to curate a version of herself that she feels

1625
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:21,560
Speaker 1: will be palatable to others because she literally cannot control

1626
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,479
Speaker 1: her body and she cannot even speak to her boyfriend

1627
01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:26,439
Speaker 1: and her boyfriend's family, or impress them in the ways

1628
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 1: that she hoped to impress them, and through that process

1629
01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:34,360
Speaker 1: establishes a kind of self love in her twenties that

1630
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:38,840
Speaker 1: I look at with such admiration and envy, because if

1631
01:22:39,040 --> 01:22:42,040
Speaker 1: only we could all achieve that level of self assuredness

1632
01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:44,880
Speaker 1: and love. And so who would have thought that I

1633
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 1: would feel so close to Olivia because we shared this

1634
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:50,720
Speaker 1: thing in common that I wouldn't even have known had

1635
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:53,640
Speaker 1: I just heard about the elements of her stroke and

1636
01:22:53,680 --> 01:22:54,800
Speaker 1: her physical recovery.

1637
01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:58,600
Speaker 2: You know, it's incredible. Yeah, I really, I definitely have

1638
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:00,800
Speaker 2: taken that away from you in this comversation of how

1639
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:03,599
Speaker 2: important it is to hear people's stories and how much

1640
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:05,640
Speaker 2: we can get from that and talk about humanity as

1641
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:09,519
Speaker 2: a whole. And one thing I really struggle with is

1642
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:13,519
Speaker 2: the idea of I feel like we seem like a

1643
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:16,280
Speaker 2: society that is getting more and more open. We're more accepting,

1644
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:19,160
Speaker 2: We're more like, Yeah, you know, if you look at

1645
01:23:19,160 --> 01:23:22,280
Speaker 2: the timeline and what history has shown, we seem like

1646
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:26,439
Speaker 2: as a human race, we're getting more progressive and being

1647
01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:29,080
Speaker 2: more open minded. But at the same time, it also

1648
01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 2: feels like the world's becoming a lot more judgmental, And

1649
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:35,080
Speaker 2: when I think about judgment in my own life, I

1650
01:23:35,160 --> 01:23:38,080
Speaker 2: always notice that I'm more judgment It correlates with the

1651
01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:40,320
Speaker 2: less happy I am, the more judgmental I am of

1652
01:23:40,360 --> 01:23:42,760
Speaker 2: other people, the less content I am in The moments

1653
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:44,840
Speaker 2: where I'm feeling more insecure and the moments where I'm

1654
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:48,639
Speaker 2: feeling unhappy about my own circumstance is when I will

1655
01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:50,760
Speaker 2: have a lot more to say and a lot more

1656
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:54,320
Speaker 2: to think about somebody else. I would love your perspective

1657
01:23:54,360 --> 01:23:57,800
Speaker 2: on that, And why judging people gives us this feeling

1658
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:01,000
Speaker 2: of superiority like it gives us hurting other people, or

1659
01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:04,760
Speaker 2: judging other people makes us feel better about ourselves. How

1660
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:08,639
Speaker 2: of the two relations and how do we separate that

1661
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 2: relationship to not being not being connected? Because your pain

1662
01:24:13,479 --> 01:24:15,120
Speaker 2: doesn't shouldn't make me feel any better?

1663
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:18,320
Speaker 1: Resolutely? Yeah, I mean, look, we all have tribalism baked

1664
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:23,240
Speaker 1: into our brains, and the group out group mentality is

1665
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:26,639
Speaker 1: just a part of our wiring, and I do think

1666
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:30,240
Speaker 1: it takes deliberate effort to try to break down those walls,

1667
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:34,040
Speaker 1: in those boundaries. I also think that when we are

1668
01:24:34,120 --> 01:24:37,160
Speaker 1: judging someone else, what we're really doing is trying to

1669
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 1: reaffirm our own values and what we actually care about,

1670
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:43,320
Speaker 1: and to remind ourselves that, oh, we're good people, right,

1671
01:24:43,320 --> 01:24:46,040
Speaker 1: because we're not like that person over there. Right. But

1672
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:49,559
Speaker 1: I will tell you one thing, which is having been

1673
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:52,799
Speaker 1: a cognitive scientist for decades has been the greatest empathy

1674
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:56,439
Speaker 1: builder of my life. Because when you understand the root

1675
01:24:56,560 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 1: causes for why people believe certain things, why they believe

1676
01:24:59,880 --> 01:25:03,160
Speaker 1: that things they believe, why they've come to have the

1677
01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:05,840
Speaker 1: attitudes and the orientation to the world that they've come

1678
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:10,240
Speaker 1: to have, you will naturally dislike them less.

1679
01:25:10,479 --> 01:25:10,919
Speaker 2: Right.

1680
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 1: It's so I know this sounds crazy, but it's like

1681
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 1: very very hard for me to hate someone when I

1682
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:18,479
Speaker 1: understand their full story.

1683
01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:20,639
Speaker 2: It's because you've taken the time. I think the more

1684
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 2: time if you choose to take a little bit more

1685
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 2: time to understand the person that you're judging, or the

1686
01:25:27,320 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 2: person that you think you hate, or the person that

1687
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:31,720
Speaker 2: you dislike online. Yeah, the thing is you have to

1688
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:34,280
Speaker 2: be willing to give them the opportunity. And I think

1689
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:36,559
Speaker 2: most of us when we decide we don't like this person,

1690
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:38,719
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk to this person. This person

1691
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:41,599
Speaker 2: nothing like me, it's because a part of us wants

1692
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:43,559
Speaker 2: to feel that way. But if you chose that you

1693
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:45,920
Speaker 2: actually didn't want to feel that way, and you wanted

1694
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:47,720
Speaker 2: to give the person benefit of doubt, which is what

1695
01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:50,479
Speaker 2: it usually is. Yeah, you probably will end up liking them,

1696
01:25:50,520 --> 01:25:51,920
Speaker 2: but a part of you doesn't want to. Yeah, a

1697
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 2: part of you doesn't want to believe it.

1698
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:57,240
Speaker 1: It threatens your own tribal identity. And I think that's

1699
01:25:57,280 --> 01:26:00,240
Speaker 1: what's so hard and what you learn. I think with

1700
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:01,680
Speaker 1: a lot of people is they're like, how could you

1701
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:04,639
Speaker 1: possibly believe the things that you believe? And it turns

1702
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:08,599
Speaker 1: out that for them, that part of their belief system

1703
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:13,479
Speaker 1: is entangled with their social identity. It's how they relate

1704
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:15,400
Speaker 1: to their family members, it's how they feel a sense

1705
01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:17,960
Speaker 1: of belonging. It's the community that they are a part

1706
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:21,200
Speaker 1: of within their lives. And so for me, when I

1707
01:26:21,240 --> 01:26:25,800
Speaker 1: think about the origin story of belief systems, it just

1708
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:29,400
Speaker 1: takes the temperature down because, of course, like everyone else,

1709
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:31,320
Speaker 1: I'll be watching TV and I'm like, how could this

1710
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:34,880
Speaker 1: person say this vile stuff? It's disgusting. I still have

1711
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:38,280
Speaker 1: that same visceral reaction, and then I try to remind myself,

1712
01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:42,720
Speaker 1: like You can vehemently disagree with what they're saying, and

1713
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:45,080
Speaker 1: you can think that what they're saying is so so

1714
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:47,320
Speaker 1: harmful and you should do everything you can to advocate

1715
01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:52,000
Speaker 1: against that, but there probably is humanity deep within them.

1716
01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 2: Yes, I want to try and end with a hopeful question,

1717
01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:57,840
Speaker 2: and that is what's the most hopeful thing. Your research

1718
01:26:58,320 --> 01:27:01,160
Speaker 2: as being a cognitive scientist taught you about human nature

1719
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:05,479
Speaker 2: and our capacity to just be nice people.

1720
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of my favorite concepts that actually I

1721
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:13,519
Speaker 1: discovered when writing The Other Side of Change is called

1722
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 1: moral elevation. Moral elevation is that warm, fuzzy feeling we

1723
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:21,679
Speaker 1: get in our chest when we witness someone else's moral beauty.

1724
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:25,839
Speaker 1: So moral beauty can be defined as any extraordinary behavior.

1725
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:28,240
Speaker 1: So it can be someone's self sacrifice or their courage,

1726
01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:31,800
Speaker 1: or their resilience or their ability to forgive someone or

1727
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:33,719
Speaker 1: their resilience whatever.

1728
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:36,479
Speaker 2: Even when I see a young person stand up for

1729
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:38,479
Speaker 2: an elderly person on the train, I'm like, thank God,

1730
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:40,480
Speaker 2: these people exist.

1731
01:27:40,400 --> 01:27:42,719
Speaker 1: And we're going to all be those people talking about

1732
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:45,400
Speaker 1: a failure of entity. That's all of our destiny.

1733
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:48,080
Speaker 2: That's great, Okay, we are still good people.

1734
01:27:48,479 --> 01:27:52,200
Speaker 1: Fantastic, No, I feel that too, And so it turns

1735
01:27:52,200 --> 01:27:54,840
Speaker 1: out moral beauty is everywhere around us if we're just

1736
01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:58,639
Speaker 1: willing to be keen observers. And what I love about

1737
01:27:58,640 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 1: the experience of moral elevation is that it doesn't just

1738
01:28:01,280 --> 01:28:04,320
Speaker 1: feel good. It doesn't just restore our faith in humanity.

1739
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 1: It actually changes our brains. So research shows that when

1740
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:12,160
Speaker 1: we witness someone defy our understanding of what humans are

1741
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:16,519
Speaker 1: capable of, it actually cracks open our own imagination about

1742
01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:19,880
Speaker 1: what we are capable of, which is especially helpful when

1743
01:28:19,920 --> 01:28:21,680
Speaker 1: we're in the throes of change and we don't know

1744
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:25,120
Speaker 1: what the other side looks like. And I had an

1745
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:28,799
Speaker 1: experience of moral elevation back in twenty fifteen. I remember

1746
01:28:28,840 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 1: after the horrific shooting at Mother Emmanuel Church, the daughter

1747
01:28:33,439 --> 01:28:37,600
Speaker 1: of one of the victims extended forgiveness publicly to the

1748
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 1: racist killer inside the courtroom, and Robbie I was stunned

1749
01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:46,479
Speaker 1: by this. Okay, I mean I was working at the time.

1750
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:48,479
Speaker 1: I was working in the Obama White House, and I

1751
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 1: was in this policy sphere, and I just remember my

1752
01:28:52,400 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 1: colleagues and I because I think President Obama had gone

1753
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:58,040
Speaker 1: to the church and we were all just stunned by this.

1754
01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 1: And what do Collier taught me, which was the daughter,

1755
01:29:03,160 --> 01:29:06,080
Speaker 1: was that humans have a capacity a depth of forgiveness

1756
01:29:06,120 --> 01:29:09,639
Speaker 1: that I did not think was possible. And the beauty

1757
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:11,680
Speaker 1: of moral elevation is that it's not even like I

1758
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,960
Speaker 1: was looking to forgive anyone in particular, but that impact

1759
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:20,320
Speaker 1: transcends domain, because it led me to ask myself, how

1760
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:22,880
Speaker 1: kind am I capable of being to others? How much

1761
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:25,840
Speaker 1: empathy can I show to others? How much resolve can

1762
01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:28,880
Speaker 1: I show? How much conviction, how much resilience? And it

1763
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 1: just makes you hopeful about what humans can do. And

1764
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:39,759
Speaker 1: so I would urge everyone who's listening to this moral

1765
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:42,120
Speaker 1: beauty is all around you. It's at the coffee shop

1766
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:44,080
Speaker 1: in the morning when you witness someone being super nice

1767
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:46,280
Speaker 1: to the barista. It's when you're walking down the street

1768
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:49,679
Speaker 1: and you see someone hold an elderly person's hand and gently,

1769
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:52,679
Speaker 1: with no rush at all, walk them across the street.

1770
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 1: It's when you pass by the playground and you see

1771
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:57,760
Speaker 1: a little kid defend their friend from bullying. It's just

1772
01:29:58,200 --> 01:29:59,040
Speaker 1: all around us.

1773
01:29:59,120 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 2: It's when people you in in a line that you're

1774
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:05,080
Speaker 2: cutting into on like a motorway, or yeah, thank you so.

1775
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:09,320
Speaker 1: Much, you're drive Caday. How grateful I am to you

1776
01:30:09,320 --> 01:30:11,080
Speaker 1: in this moment because I'm almost going to miss my flight,

1777
01:30:11,400 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, and you didn't even know that. But you're

1778
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:17,720
Speaker 1: so nice. And because the world can feel so divisive,

1779
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:21,080
Speaker 1: and because we feel so disconnected from one one another,

1780
01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:25,160
Speaker 1: inviting moments of moral beauty into your life every day

1781
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:30,080
Speaker 1: will remind you that actually there are good There are

1782
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:34,160
Speaker 1: good humans everywhere, and we think about these people in

1783
01:30:34,240 --> 01:30:38,200
Speaker 1: groups as like masses, but on an individual level, there's

1784
01:30:38,240 --> 01:30:40,160
Speaker 1: so much humanity to be inspired by.

1785
01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:44,320
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. So many other questions that I

1786
01:30:44,320 --> 01:30:46,640
Speaker 2: didn't even ask, because we had a way better conversation

1787
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:50,280
Speaker 2: than than what my what my questions even were, but

1788
01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:50,759
Speaker 2: we went.

1789
01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 1: In so many unexpected directions.

1790
01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:54,720
Speaker 2: We really did, and they're the best type of conversations.

1791
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:56,200
Speaker 2: I love it when I don't even have to look

1792
01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:58,439
Speaker 2: at my cards hardly and I just get to have

1793
01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 2: a beautiful conversation with you to us exactly what we

1794
01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:03,599
Speaker 2: got to do. So thank you so much. Thank everybody.

1795
01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:04,639
Speaker 1: Go out.

1796
01:31:04,680 --> 01:31:07,479
Speaker 2: If this conversation didn't inspire you, then I don't know

1797
01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:10,439
Speaker 2: what will. To be honest, go get the other side

1798
01:31:10,439 --> 01:31:13,519
Speaker 2: of change. By Maya Shanka It is such an incredible book,

1799
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:15,960
Speaker 2: and it's filled with all these stories and these lessons

1800
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:18,760
Speaker 2: and wisdom that we've spoken about. I feel like we've

1801
01:31:18,800 --> 01:31:20,640
Speaker 2: just kind of hit the surface in this conversation, and

1802
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:22,920
Speaker 2: there's so much more in this book. So thank you

1803
01:31:23,080 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 2: for listening, and thank you so much, Thanks so much,

1804
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:26,680
Speaker 2: rather amazing