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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional.

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Speaker 2: Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session

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Speaker 2: three point fifty four of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast.

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Speaker 2: We'll get right into our conversation afterword from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: In honor of Black Maternal Health Week, we're circling back

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Speaker 2: to one of our inventory episodes that so many of

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Speaker 2: you enjoyed. For our new listeners, you're definitely in for

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Speaker 2: a treat. This episode features doctor Christy Christopher Holloway, a

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Speaker 2: licensed professional counselor here in the state of Georgia. In

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Speaker 2: our conversation, doctor Christy and I discuss what life can

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Speaker 2: look like during pregnancy, birth, and in the postpartum period. Plus,

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Speaker 2: we explore the growing research around black women's experiences giving birth,

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Speaker 2: how the process of giving birth can be traumatic, the

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Speaker 2: difference between postpartum depression and the baby blues, and how

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Speaker 2: Black women can be strong advocates for ourselves in medical settings.

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Speaker 2: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 2: share it with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 2: TBG in session, or join us over in the sister Circle.

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Speaker 2: To talk more about the episode. You can join us

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Speaker 2: at community dot therapy for Black Girls dot Com. Here's

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Speaker 2: our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today,

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Speaker 2: doctor Christopher Holloway.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really excited we were able to kind of

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Speaker 1: arrange the time to chat because, you know, there has

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Speaker 1: been so much more conversation just about the experiences of

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Speaker 1: black women getting pregnant, having babies, you know, the whole

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Speaker 1: issues related to the maternal death rate related to black moms.

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Speaker 1: So it definitely feels like a conversation. I want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that we're continuing to have and I know

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Speaker 1: that this is a specialty for you. Yes, absolutely, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so can you start off by talking a little bit

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Speaker 1: about like your perception of like everything that's being shared

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Speaker 1: in the news and like, and I'm sure or you

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Speaker 1: may have been seeing this in your practice even before

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Speaker 1: it became a news item, right.

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Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, So I think as I kind of look

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Speaker 3: at it and I pay attention to it, especially with

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Speaker 3: the maternal mortality rates and things like that that's going on,

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Speaker 3: part of me gets, you know, a little frustrated, like gosh,

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Speaker 3: why is it still happening? Why does this disparity still exist?

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Speaker 3: What are we doing about it? What can we do

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Speaker 3: about it? But then the other part of me feel

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Speaker 3: somewhat happy that it is being shared and it it

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Speaker 3: is being talked about, and that you know, light is

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Speaker 3: being shipped on it, and that it's not a matter

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Speaker 3: that's just consistently still being swept under the rub. So

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Speaker 3: I feel torn sometimes in the issue, But you know,

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Speaker 3: I guess if we have to look at it in

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Speaker 3: those terms just being excited that okay, at least now,

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Speaker 3: maybe this is not something that people can keep acting

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Speaker 3: like doesn't exist or that can be ignored. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: I'm hoping you know that we will also see you know,

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Speaker 3: like some kind of tasks if that hasn't already started

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Speaker 3: to talk about, you know, both what practitioners could be

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Speaker 3: doing more, but also how maybe we can become better

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Speaker 3: advocates for ourselves. And I know that you do a

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Speaker 3: lot of that with your clients, like helping them to

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Speaker 3: really become advocates for their own like health and stuff.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely definitely teaching them that their voice is super important.

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Speaker 3: They don't advocate for themselves or know that it's okay

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Speaker 3: to speak up that you know, sometimes they may be

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Speaker 3: in a setting where they may feel intimidated or feel

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Speaker 3: like they can't speak up, and so letting them know

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Speaker 3: that it's okay and that they deserve that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think a part of what has scared

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Speaker 1: me too, you know, just with the recent conversations. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've heard about Serena Tiamari, Beyonce even has shared, you know,

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Speaker 1: like the difficulties related to pregnancy, and you think about,

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Speaker 1: like with people with this level of resources still having

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Speaker 1: to do so much advocating and saying no, this is

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Speaker 1: you know what I think is going on. You need

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Speaker 1: to check me for this, And it does worry that,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, okay, if this is happening to people

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Speaker 1: with this level of resources, what might be happening to

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Speaker 1: people that don't have this level of resource.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know, the research that shows that ethnic minority

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Speaker 3: women do experience higher rates of maternal mortality, and so

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Speaker 3: not having those resources, or not knowing what to look for,

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Speaker 3: or not being heard in a lot of times situations

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Speaker 3: or things that may arise may be kind of shunned

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Speaker 3: off for second guests, and maybe we're thinking, oh, maybe

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Speaker 3: this is just the part of being a new mom,

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Speaker 3: and so it's not really looking into they're not like

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Speaker 3: educated on some of the signs and symptoms, and so,

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Speaker 3: like you're saying, for someone that has such a huge

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Speaker 3: platform or has access to these resources to still feel

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Speaker 3: that kind of way, it definitely does make you think

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Speaker 3: about what may be happening to those people that may

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Speaker 3: not have that access, who may be in a lower

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Speaker 3: socioeconomic status situation, and what it is that they're experiencing.

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Speaker 1: So a lot that has come out of the research

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Speaker 1: that's being conducted related to like the maternal death rates

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Speaker 1: for black women is talking about like this whole weathering effect,

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Speaker 1: right that black women have, just like the cumulative stress

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Speaker 1: related to being a black woman in the world, how

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Speaker 1: that may be something that is like contributing to the

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Speaker 1: death rates. And so working with a lot of moms

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Speaker 1: or you know, soon to be moms, how do you

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Speaker 1: in your work help them to kind of manage some

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Speaker 1: of the stressors of just being a black woman in

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Speaker 1: the country.

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Speaker 3: So one of the things that I do is we

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Speaker 3: talk about it, Like I give them permission in our

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Speaker 3: sessions to really talk about what that looks like for them,

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Speaker 3: talk about what it means to be a woman, a

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Speaker 3: black woman, and then now a black woman that's about

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Speaker 3: to be a mom. So giving them that permission to

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Speaker 3: really just talk about all of the day to day

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Speaker 3: things that they do and those stressors. And then from there,

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Speaker 3: as we kind of get through that and talk about it,

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Speaker 3: and I can get off their chest because a lot

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Speaker 3: of times we're told to like hold it in or

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Speaker 3: it doesn't matter, or we you know, we shouldn't complain.

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Speaker 3: It's seen as complaining as opposed to talking and getting

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Speaker 3: that support and that help, or sometimes unfortunately they may

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Speaker 3: not have the type of support system that they require

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Speaker 3: or that they really need or deserve. So we get

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Speaker 3: all of that out and then from there, what I

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Speaker 3: really do is educate my mom's on what it may

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Speaker 3: look like, what some eternal mental health issues may look like,

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Speaker 3: how it may present, what they should be on the

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Speaker 3: lookout for, and just really kind of letting them know

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Speaker 3: how it may take shape or how it may take form,

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Speaker 3: and when they need to seek out extra support. If

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Speaker 3: I'm fortunate enough to have their partner, I'll also educate

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Speaker 3: the partner on this too, because sometimes we may not

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Speaker 3: see it. We may be so busy in the hustle

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Speaker 3: of bustle of doing all these other things that we

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Speaker 3: may miss it. And so I'll try to educate the

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Speaker 3: partner or family member or friend or someone like that

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Speaker 3: on what to be on the lookout for as well.

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Speaker 1: So can you share some of those things with us

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Speaker 1: actor as Followay, I mean, I know one of the

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Speaker 1: big ones that everybody often hears about is postpartum depression.

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Speaker 1: So can you tell us a little bit about like

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Speaker 1: what signs we need to be looking out for there.

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Speaker 3: So first what I tell people is, you know, you're right,

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Speaker 3: we do hear about postpartum depression, but a lot of

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Speaker 3: times what gets left out is postpartum anxiety, postpartum psychosis,

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Speaker 3: postpartum OCD. So a lot of those are left out,

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Speaker 3: and so now women aren't sure what's going on because

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Speaker 3: they've never been educated about it or told about it,

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Speaker 3: or that it even exists. So now they're experiencing this

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Speaker 3: maybe and they don't know what it is, or they're

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Speaker 3: writing it off or they're thinking it's normal. So post

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Speaker 3: part of depression, though, is what is beyond just the

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Speaker 3: baby blues. So a lot of times you'll hear someone

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Speaker 3: talk about having the baby blues and what that is.

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Speaker 3: It lasts about two weeks post birth, and that's kind

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Speaker 3: of the sadness and things like that, maybe some crying.

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Speaker 3: That's when we're having that huge hormonal shift, and so

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Speaker 3: our hormones are all over the place and we're adjusting

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Speaker 3: to being a new mom, adjusting to this great bundle

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Speaker 3: of joy that you may have. And I'm speaking in

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Speaker 3: terms of those who are able or fortunate enough to

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Speaker 3: bring those babies home, because I do also work with

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Speaker 3: pregnancy and infant loss, which is a whole another thing

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Speaker 3: when it comes to postpartum. Post part of depression is

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Speaker 3: beyond the baby blue. So this is looking more like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: am I losing interest? Am I not connecting with the

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Speaker 3: baby am I not eating? Am I getting sleep but

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Speaker 3: not getting rested? You know, like, am I having a

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Speaker 3: hard time with getting sleep? Am I not refreshed? And

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Speaker 3: at heart? Sometimes? Because who is refreshed when you have,

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Speaker 3: you know, a new baby and you're up throughout the

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Speaker 3: night and things like that. So post part of depression

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Speaker 3: goes way beyond just that baby blue. Sometimes what starts

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Speaker 3: happening is the mom may experiencing the suicidal thoughts, maybe

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Speaker 3: not active, but just thinking, gosh, I'm not a good mom,

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Speaker 3: and maybe you know, the place would be better off

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Speaker 3: without me, or this baby would be better off without me,

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Speaker 3: or I don't know what I'm doing. So I kind

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Speaker 3: of educate the moms on that and what that may

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Speaker 3: look like for them, especially if they've already had this

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Speaker 3: prevalence of depression prior to conceiving, because sometimes that can

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Speaker 3: increase the risk of experiencing postpartum depression. So I try

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Speaker 3: to educate them and let them know that this is

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Speaker 3: beyond that. In this moment, this is like I'm continuously sad,

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Speaker 3: I'm continuously crying, I'm continuously having thoughts that may not

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Speaker 3: be healthy thoughts or that may be very maladaptive thoughts

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Speaker 3: or even scary thoughts to him, and so they get

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Speaker 3: afraid to even talk about it because then the next

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Speaker 3: thing that happens is they're afraid that someone's gonna come

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Speaker 3: take the baby away or you know, remove them from

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Speaker 3: the baby. And so then there's this hard time with

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Speaker 3: like talking about what's going on as opposed to just

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Speaker 3: sitting there and kind of grunting and dealing with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that, because I don't

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Speaker 1: think we hear enough about like the postpartum psychosis, like

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Speaker 1: all of these different things that can happen after the

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Speaker 1: birth of a baby. And I feel like there is

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Speaker 1: so much going on that you often don't know, right,

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Speaker 1: like even if you're somebody who's trained to know the symptoms,

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Speaker 1: Like there's just so much going on homonally with your sleep,

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Speaker 1: just like just a whole host of things that can

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Speaker 1: kind of be contributing to you having some issues.

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Speaker 3: It's important, you know, to be able to talk about

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Speaker 3: that and to understand what that looks like, what that

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Speaker 3: may mean, and then what the mom needs to do

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Speaker 3: to get that support if she is experiencing some of that.

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Speaker 3: So what I typically do is when I have new

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Speaker 3: moms and they're expecting we go over all this. I

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Speaker 3: give them like a little checklist or what it looks

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Speaker 3: like for them and to them for their normal right

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Speaker 3: because everyone's is different, and then some things to look for.

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Speaker 3: And so after the baby is born, I'm constantly checking

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Speaker 3: in with them because postpartum can also present up to

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Speaker 3: about a year or two after birth. So usually we've

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Speaker 3: been told, oh, you know, six weeks, that's not postpartum,

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Speaker 3: and it is, it can be. So I let them

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Speaker 3: know that if it's five months down the line and

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Speaker 3: now you're experiencing some things that seem out of the

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Speaker 3: norm for you, like, let's talk about it, because this

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Speaker 3: may be what's.

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Speaker 2: Going on, got it?

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Speaker 1: So I bet that checklist is handy, especially like you said,

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Speaker 1: for like partners or other supportive friends and family members

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Speaker 1: who can maybe help to kind of keep an eye

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Speaker 1: on some of those symptoms. Absolutely, absolutely so, doctor Christopher Halloween.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk more about the anxiety piece?

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Speaker 3: Sure? And this is why it's so hard sometimes for

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Speaker 3: new moms and new parents, because again, a lot of

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Speaker 3: it seems extremely normal, like, yes, you're anxious, you have

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Speaker 3: this new baby. Yes you're standing over the crib and

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Speaker 3: making sure they're breathing right. Yes, you may be nervous.

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Speaker 3: Am I you know breastfeeding correctly? Am I doing the

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Speaker 3: formula correctly? Did I check their diaper? Did I change it?

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Speaker 3: So a lot of times the anxiety that comes with

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Speaker 3: being a new mom that it looks like postpartum could

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Speaker 3: be a lot of increased agitation, a lot of extreme

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Speaker 3: like panic and heart racing, being super alert, constant worry,

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Speaker 3: constant racing thoughts. There may be heart palpitations or feeling

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Speaker 3: like your heart skipping a beat, may have trouble breathing,

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Speaker 3: and so then you're having like these really extreme moments.

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Speaker 3: Are these extreme episodes sometimes of anxiety and panic, and

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Speaker 3: so it's beyond like, okay, let me go and check

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Speaker 3: and make sure my baby is breathing. Because if you've

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Speaker 3: had a baby, for instance, that may have been born

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Speaker 3: a little earlier, needed some time, and then I think

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Speaker 3: it's very normal as you're adjusting to make sure they're okay.

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Speaker 3: So this is going beyond that. This is I'm worrying

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Speaker 3: all the time. I'm not sleeping, I can't control my thoughts,

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Speaker 3: I can't catch my breath. It feels like I'm having

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Speaker 3: a heart attack, I'm constantly sweating, Like those are some

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Speaker 3: of the symptoms that may present when someone is experiencing

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Speaker 3: some postpart of anxiety.

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Speaker 1: So what kinds of things might you do with a

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Speaker 1: client to help them to manage some of this anxiety?

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Speaker 3: Definitely, so one we identify it. And so one of

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Speaker 3: the things that I do, I'm more of a cognitive

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Speaker 3: behavioral type therapist, and what that basically is is I

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Speaker 3: help clients to understand how their thoughts, their feelings, and

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Speaker 3: their actions or behaviors are all connected. And so one

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Speaker 3: of the things that I'll do is have them stop

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Speaker 3: and say, Okay, this fear or this worry or this

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Speaker 3: concern that I'm having right now is it because it

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Speaker 3: may be extremely rational. And then I'll have them ask

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Speaker 3: and basically say, okay, is there anything that I can

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Speaker 3: do about it? And if there is something they can

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Speaker 3: do about it, then figuring out like how they need

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Speaker 3: to implement that to do something about it. If it's

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Speaker 3: an irrational fear an irrational thought, I'll have them say, okay,

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Speaker 3: now what thing do I need to do to help myself?

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Speaker 3: So to speak, quiet this fear or quiet this thought.

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Speaker 3: So that may mean I can journal, at a talk

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Speaker 3: to my partner. I can take a nap because a

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Speaker 3: lot of times it's due to exhaustion and just being

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Speaker 3: completely tired. I can go and hold the baby if

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Speaker 3: I'm concerned that I'm not breastfeeding correctly or my baby's

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Speaker 3: constantly crying. Am I starving them? And so then I'll

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Speaker 3: give them facts on breastfeeding and how breastfed babies respond

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Speaker 3: and react, and how the mom responds and reacts. So again,

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Speaker 3: I'll use a lot of CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy

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Speaker 3: to help them identify their thoughts, to help them understand

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Speaker 3: how it's affecting their feelings and emotions, and then to

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Speaker 3: help them understand how it's affecting their actions or their behaviors,

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Speaker 3: and then basically having them understand. I call it like

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Speaker 3: detective work. And so if you watch a lot of

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Speaker 3: I was huge on Law and Order, yes and otherwise, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, you get caught up, but you know, so

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Speaker 3: typically though, you know, they have to find this preponderance

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Speaker 3: of evidence, right, like they have to find enough evidence

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Speaker 3: to either convict someone or to take it to trial

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Speaker 3: or press charges whatever that is. And so if it's

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Speaker 3: not enough evidence, sometimes they can't move forward. They have

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Speaker 3: to drop the charges or reduce the charges. And so

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Speaker 3: I tell my clients, I want you to be a detective.

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Speaker 3: I want you to get a preponderance of evidence that

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Speaker 3: this right here, that your experiencing and thinking is a fact.

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Speaker 3: If you can't find any evidence, then this lets us

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Speaker 3: know that this fear we can kind of start working

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Speaker 3: through moving forward from like it's not going to happen.

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Speaker 3: You may have some evidence because again, maybe your baby

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Speaker 3: did have some trouble in nick you, or you have

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Speaker 3: had some trouble during birth, or you experienced loss before

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Speaker 3: infertility before something like that. So then we'll say, Okay,

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Speaker 3: how can we help or how can I help you,

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Speaker 3: or how can your partner help you as it relates

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Speaker 3: to having more adaptive thinking or thinking that'll be more

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Speaker 3: healthy for you, so that you can connect to this

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Speaker 3: baby and you can attach and that you can you know,

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Speaker 3: be the mom that you were hoping that you would

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Speaker 3: be more.

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Speaker 1: From our conversation after the break, so you brought up

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Speaker 1: another thing that I think we should touch on, dictor

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Speaker 1: Christopher Halloway, related to breastfeeding, because I do know that oftentimes,

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Speaker 1: like the relationship that you have as the mom with

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding can bring up a lot like if you're doing

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Speaker 1: it right, or if for some reason you can't do

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Speaker 1: it but you really wanted to, then does that bring up,

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Speaker 1: you know, some feelings of regret or sadness or guilt

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Speaker 1: for you. Can you talk a little bit about how

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding kind of as another layer to this whole puzzle.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely so, And then that even goes in with education.

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Speaker 3: So breastfeeding can do one of two things. It can

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Speaker 3: really promote this attachment and help the mom because now

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Speaker 3: she's feeling like I'm doing something right. You know, I'm connecting,

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Speaker 3: I'm feeding my baby. I may be depressed, I may

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Speaker 3: be sad, I may be anxious. I may not know

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Speaker 3: anything else, but I know that I can latch this

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Speaker 3: baby to my breast and nourish it and give it

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Speaker 3: everything that it needs. On the flip side of that,

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Speaker 3: you may have someone who has not been properly educated

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Speaker 3: about breastfeeding. And so when I say that, what I

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Speaker 3: mean by that is maybe they don't understand how their

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Speaker 3: milk comes in the process of lactation. They think maybe

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Speaker 3: as soon as I give birth, my milk should be

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Speaker 3: flowing and you know, just running endlessly, and so they're

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Speaker 3: not educated on that. They're not educated on latching the

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Speaker 3: baby or how breastfeed. Babies may feed more off than

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Speaker 3: babies that are given formula, and so now it's creating

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Speaker 3: again anxiety. It's creating I'm felling my baby. My baby

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Speaker 3: is starving because it's crying, or it's hurting me to

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Speaker 3: breastfeed because maybe they haven't been shown how to appropriately

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Speaker 3: latch the baby, and so they give up or they

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Speaker 3: decide to you know, not pursue it, or it's too much,

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Speaker 3: and so that can bring on some depression in anxiety

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Speaker 3: because this may be something that they have this expectation

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Speaker 3: of and that they really really wanted to do and

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Speaker 3: to fulfill, but because now they feel like it's not

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Speaker 3: working or they're not successful, or maybe they are successful,

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Speaker 3: they're just not understanding what it looks like. And so

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Speaker 3: this can also increase because now again all of these

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Speaker 3: expectations that I may have had when it comes to

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Speaker 3: breastfeeding my baby is not happening. I'm not nurishing my child,

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Speaker 3: I'm not giving my child what they need. Or sometimes

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Speaker 3: society does this mom shaming and you'll have folks that

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Speaker 3: are just saying, you know, breast is best. You'll have

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Speaker 3: other folks safe formula, and then you'll have some people

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Speaker 3: in the middle that may say fed is best. And

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Speaker 3: as long as you're feeding your baby and you're giving

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Speaker 3: it what it means. So sometimes the mom can get

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Speaker 3: a little discouraged thinking that she's spelling this baby or

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Speaker 3: letting this baby down in turn letting herself down and

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Speaker 3: not meeting all of those expectations that she had set

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Speaker 3: up as it relates to how she wanted to nourish

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Speaker 3: this baby. And so again I talked with moms about this.

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Speaker 3: I am not a lactation consultant, but I am an advocate,

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Speaker 3: and so I'll talk to moms about that, and then

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Speaker 3: also put them in touch with a lactation consultant or

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Speaker 3: knowing what to request if they're having a hospital birth,

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Speaker 3: knowing what to request so that they can get the

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Speaker 3: education before leaving. And then also maybe some different Facebook

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Speaker 3: support groups or Instagram followings that they can do that

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Speaker 3: can kind of help educate and keep them motivated as

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Speaker 3: they are trying with their breastfeeding journey.

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Speaker 1: So, doctor Christopher Halloway, you mentioned this whole idea of expectations,

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Speaker 1: and I do think, especially as a first time mom,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of expectations about like what everything

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Speaker 1: is going to be like. And so I know, another

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Speaker 1: thing that you really work with women on and your

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Speaker 1: practice is related to birth traumas and maybe not having

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Speaker 1: the birth outcomes that they wanted. Can you talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about that part of your work.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, so, yes, I do deal with or work with

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Speaker 3: women who experienced birth trauma. And so one of the

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Speaker 3: things that I always say is trauma is in the

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Speaker 3: eye of the beholder. It is not on mean to

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Speaker 3: tell someone that they weren't you know, what they experienced

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Speaker 3: was not traumatizing. But birth trauma can look like perhaps

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Speaker 3: you were wanting to have a natural, battional birth and

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Speaker 3: you now had to be maybe at a hospital or

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Speaker 3: with a doctor or somewhere that didn't understand your birth

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Speaker 3: plan or wasn't away of your birth plan. It can

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Speaker 3: look like you have been preparing this entire time for

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Speaker 3: a vaginal birth, and because babies do what they do,

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Speaker 3: maybe it flips, or it turns, or you know, maybe

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Speaker 3: there's heart rate acceleration or something that's putting you in

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Speaker 3: the baby at risk. So now you're having the cesarean

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Speaker 3: section that you were not prepared for. It's an emergency cesarean,

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Speaker 3: so you know the things that go along with that.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you know, I've watched a video where a doctor

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Speaker 3: was saying, you know, I'm just gonna yank this baby

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Speaker 3: out of you, and so that's traumatic because you are

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Speaker 3: at the most vulnerable state. Your legs are up, you know,

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Speaker 3: your houhas out, and it's a lot going on, and

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Speaker 3: so you don't know what to do. So that was

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Speaker 3: very traumatizing for that mom. And so I work with

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Speaker 3: moms and helping them kind of understand that, Okay, this

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Speaker 3: may be your birth plan, but these are some things

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Speaker 3: that may come up that we may need to deal with.

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Speaker 3: And sometimes I don't get that opportunity to do that

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Speaker 3: because maybe I've gotten a mom who's come in now

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Speaker 3: because of birth trauma, and so it can look like

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Speaker 3: I had the healthy pregnancy all of a sudden, my

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Speaker 3: water broke at thirty weeks and I had no idea.

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Speaker 3: They couldn't stop anything, and now I have this two

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Speaker 3: pound baby that I was not prepared for, and I'm struggling.

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Speaker 3: I'm afraid, and I don't know how to connect to

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Speaker 3: this child. I don't know what to do. Am I

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Speaker 3: gonna be a good mom with maybe a NICKI baby?

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Speaker 3: Do I know how to handle them? Are they going

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Speaker 3: to be safe in the car seat? And so I

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Speaker 3: work with moms to kind of help them with that

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Speaker 3: and what that experience may look like. And then you know,

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Speaker 3: if any post traumatic stress develops from that, even working

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Speaker 3: through the trauma of this unplanned earth that they weren't expecting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely feels like, you know, there's just so

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Speaker 1: much that's out of your control, right, Like you can

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Speaker 1: be planning for whatever it is you think you want

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Speaker 1: the birth to be, and then you just don't know,

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Speaker 1: like you said, because babies do what they do and

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of all unexpected.

434
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And so for some women it's not traumatizing.

435
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 3: They just say, okay, you know, as long as my

436
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 3: baby is here and healthy. And for others, because sometimes

437
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 3: of those expectations or prior experiences, like I said, maybe

438
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 3: loss or things like that, it can be very traumatizing

439
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 3: for them, and it you know, it just has to

440
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 3: be worked.

441
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 2: Through, right right.

442
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, So I know,

443
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: another thing that will often come up and I know

444
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: that neither of us are psychiatrist, so we're not going

445
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: to dive too deep into medication stuff. But it does

446
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: often come up that, you know, clients may need to

447
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: start medication, either maybe towards the end of a pregnancy

448
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: or soon after a pregnancy to help them manage some

449
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: of the symptoms related to like post qutum depression or anxiety.

450
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,719
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about like maybe some

451
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 1: general things clients have kind of commented about after you know,

452
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: starting medication, or the discomfort of maybe wanting to start medication.

453
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 3: Yes, definitely, And so you're right, sometimes it is needed

454
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 3: because maybe the depression or the anxiety or whatever, you know,

455
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 3: mood disorder is happening. It may be so intense that

456
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: it's difficult for us to get far in treatment because

457
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 3: how deep it's running. And so sometimes medication is suggested

458
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 3: and recommended. And sometimes there may be apprehension because maybe

459
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 3: this person has had a completely natural lifestyle or natural birth,

460
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: or is not really into medications and psychotropic medications as

461
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 3: they say, or our mind altering or brain altering rather medicine,

462
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 3: And so what I have to do is talk with

463
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 3: them about at this point the risk and the benefit

464
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 3: to take in it, and just reminding me that this

465
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: may not be something that's long term. It's just to help,

466
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 3: you know, help you get through this hump, get over

467
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 3: this hump. Sometimes there's apprehension about taking the medication because

468
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 3: they are breastfeeding and they don't want it to be

469
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 3: transferred to the baby. And so there are medications that

470
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 3: are acceptable or that are okay when it comes to breastfeeding,

471
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 3: and of course there are some that are not, and

472
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 3: so I encourage the mom to definitely talk with the

473
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 3: psychiatrists as well as there you know, if they had

474
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 3: a OB or their midwife or nurse practitioner in conjunction

475
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 3: with me, so that we can figure out maybe the

476
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 3: best treatment, the best medicine, and then maybe putting hopefully

477
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: some type of guide or expectations or just a plan

478
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 3: in place on maybe how long this may be needed,

479
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 3: with the understanding that maybe it may need to be

480
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 3: needed a little longer, or maybe you know, if we

481
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: start seeing that progress and their coping skills or back

482
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: to where it needs to be, their support system is

483
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 3: there and they're talking and they're attending therapy, that it

484
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: may not be as long. But when it comes to

485
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 3: situations where if mom does not get on some medication

486
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 3: that is going to be harmful to her or the baby,

487
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: or you know, anyone in the family, then it's kind

488
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 3: of almost like, look, the benefits of you getting on

489
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 3: right now will greatly outweigh the risk of you not

490
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 3: being on.

491
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that is often like difficult conversations to have,

492
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 1: you know, for a lot of the reasons that you

493
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: just named right, right, So what are some of the

494
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: other things that you do, Doctor Christopher Holloway with moms

495
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: just kind of working through this whole period of you know,

496
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: like welcoming a baby, a new baby or you know,

497
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: a sibling now into the family to kind of help

498
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: them to, you know, make sure they're taking care of

499
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: their mental health right.

500
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 3: So, in addition to educating them on and so I

501
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 3: use the term you know, normal because it's very relative

502
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 3: to the person. In addition to educating them on their

503
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 3: normal and what things look like for them, we talk

504
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 3: about putting a support system in place. Sometimes the Internet

505
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 3: can be great and other times it can be very devastating,

506
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 3: So we talk about what that may look like for them.

507
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 3: And so their support system may include certain groups or

508
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 3: you know certain websites, and sometimes it may not we

509
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 3: may have to completely ext but we talk about how

510
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 3: your friends and family can support because sometimes you know,

511
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 3: as new moms, we want to figure it all out,

512
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 3: we want to do it all We say, well, no

513
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 3: manual comes and you know this is my baby, let

514
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 3: me do this and figure it out. So being able

515
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 3: to say, how can you reach out for that support?

516
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,479
Speaker 3: What are some things that we can put in place

517
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 3: so your family knows that maybe you need some support

518
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 3: if they have access to it. I recommend adula that

519
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 3: can kind of be a postpartum doula who can be

520
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 3: there after birth and helping them and helping around the

521
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: house and making sure mom is eating because unfortunately in America,

522
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: in our country, sometimes we don't get afforded six eight,

523
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 3: you know, twelve plus weeks of maternity leave, and then

524
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 3: the father may not get paternity leave. You know, you

525
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 3: may not have a mom or a sister or a

526
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 3: sibling or someone that can be around to help you.

527
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 3: And so sometimes having a duela there to help and

528
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 3: make sure that mom is eating, helping oh the baby

529
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 3: so mom can take a quick shower or a quick

530
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 3: nap is extremely beneficial and if they don't have access

531
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 3: to that, then talking about how can your partner support you,

532
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: How can friend support you? What are some code words

533
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 3: that we can put in place so people will know

534
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: that you need help. I encourage my clients to give

535
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 3: themselves permission, and that permission may look like whatever it

536
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 3: is that you need permission for in that moment. So

537
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 3: giving yourself permission to breathe, maybe the type of birth

538
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: that you thought you were going to have. Given your

539
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: self permission to breastfeed uncovered without a care in the

540
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 3: world you know, or given your self permission to take

541
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: a nap, given yourself permission to co sleep if that's

542
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 3: what you do, given your self permission to have the

543
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 3: type of birth that you want. So if that's a

544
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: natural birth, that's a home birth, if that's a birth

545
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 3: and a birthing censer, if that's a hospital birth, if

546
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 3: that's a medicated birth, just whatever permission that's needed, because

547
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 3: that's very free for a lot of people. And so

548
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: I try to do a lot of work with that

549
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: and putting that plan in place so that way when

550
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 3: it comes to the nitty gritty and baby is here

551
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: and it seems like the whole world has been flipped

552
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 3: upside down, that they'll have this and they can refer

553
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 3: back to it and say, Okay, this is what I

554
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 3: need or I don't have to portray being this strong,

555
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 3: got it all together mom. In this instance, I can

556
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: say no, I need help with this, or can you

557
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 3: do that? And so if mom is breastfeeding man, maybe

558
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 3: the partner can change the diapers or changed clothing, so

559
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 3: that way, you know they're both having this time with

560
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 3: this baby and bonding with the baby, mom not feeling

561
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 3: like everything is on her. So that's some of the

562
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 3: stuff that I try to do. And again, if they

563
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: don't have a huge support system and maybe there's not

564
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 3: a partner there, maybe they've chosen to be a single parent,

565
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 3: just still talking about what that may look like for them.

566
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, those all sounds like some really great tips, you know,

567
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: for anybody who is in the throes of this process.

568
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: Are preparing for this process.

569
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: Absolutely because you don't know really, you know that I

570
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 3: was telling someone the other day that and I had

571
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 3: all the what to Expect when expecting books. I had

572
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: every last one of them. I even saw one of

573
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: what to expect when you have a teenager. But at

574
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 3: the end of the day. You can read those and

575
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 3: have those and it can give you some common knowledge,

576
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: but nothing's going to prepare you until you were here

577
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 3: in the throes of it and build with it.

578
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: Right right.

579
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: So what are some of your favorite resources? Actor Christopher

580
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: Halloween Some of the things you find yourself recommending to

581
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: your clients pretty frequently.

582
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: Yes, So when it comes to just what's going on

583
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 3: with you know, the baby and what's happening? One of

584
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: the apps, and there's also a book, but I you know,

585
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 3: sometimes we don't have time to be reading books. One

586
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 3: of the apps that I definitely recommended was the Wonder

587
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 3: Week's app or the book, but it basically tells you

588
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 3: everything that's going on with baby up until I think

589
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 3: I think it goes up to it may go up

590
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: to two years old. I know it goes up to

591
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 3: a year old. But it talks about developmental leaps that

592
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 3: the baby may be having or that may be approaching,

593
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 3: so to help you understand, Okay, why is baby so

594
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 3: fussy or why is this happening? Why isn't this working?

595
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 3: And it just worked last week? So I definitely recommend

596
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: the Wonder Weeks app because I think I know for

597
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: me having twins. It just gave me a whole lot

598
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 3: of information that I needed and helped me understand like, oh, okay,

599
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 3: that's what's going on. So I definitely recommend that for

600
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 3: moms who are just dealing with these expectations that they

601
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 3: had that have now been slapped with reality. There's a

602
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: great book that I recommend called This Isn't What I Expected.

603
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: Another one is Life Will Never Be the Same, And

604
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 3: it's just basically talking about postpartum and what that looks

605
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 3: like and having just a resource for you know, moms

606
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 3: to read and understand like, I'm not the only one

607
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 3: in the world that's experiencing this. And although they know that,

608
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 3: sometimes it can feel very isolating, and again we can

609
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: get caught up in our mind and in our thoughts

610
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 3: and feel like I'm the only one that's dealing with this,

611
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 3: or you know, why didn't I breastfeed longer sheep breastfeed,

612
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 3: or why didn't I do this? And why didn't I babywear?

613
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 3: And did I mess them up? And am I attaching?

614
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 3: Am I abunding to this? Am I a horrible mom my?

615
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 3: Baby was in the nick you and I wasn't able

616
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: to be there for the first two three, five, ten weeks,

617
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 3: you know, did I damage my child? And so it

618
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 3: just helps with all of that. So those are some

619
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 3: of the great resources that I recommend.

620
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: Perfect And where can we find you online? Your website

621
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: as well as any social media handles you'd like to share.

622
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 3: Absolutely, so the website is www dot New Vision Counselingcenter

623
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 3: dot com and on Facebook you can find the company

624
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 3: as well on at New Vision Counseling Center as well.

625
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: And all of that information will be included in the

626
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: show notes so people can find you easily. Awesome, Perfect, Well,

627
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing with us today, doctor

628
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: Christopher Halloway. I really appreciate it.

629
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for having me, and hopefully this

630
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 3: has helped some women out there and even you know,

631
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 3: partners out there who may be trying to figure out

632
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 3: what's going on and help help that new mom in

633
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 3: their life. Right.

634
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm so glad doctor Christy was able to join

635
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: us for that conversation. To learn more about her and

636
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: her work, be sure to visit the show notes at

637
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three point fifty four,

638
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text this episode to two of

639
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: your girls, right now. If you're looking for a therapist

640
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy

641
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want

642
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic or just be in

643
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: community with other sisters, come on over and join us

644
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the

645
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: Internet designed just for black women. You can join us

646
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: at community dot Therapy.

647
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: For Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas,

648
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.

649
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 2: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.

650
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all

651
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 2: real soon. Take good care.

652
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: What what