1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. I'm Stephen Carol and 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: this is Here's Why, where we take one news story 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: and explain it in just a few minutes with our 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: experts here at Bloomberg. 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 2: Russian drones violated Polish airspace and of course NATO's airspace. 6 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: Every one of us on the Eastern Flank are facing 7 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 2: certain risks every single night. 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: It could well have been a deliberate action by the 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: Russians and the Beller Russians to see how good Polish 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: counter drone reaction was. 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 2: Footing's message is clear and our response must be clear too. 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: This new technology of the mass use of drones is 13 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: a threat to all of the EU and nature, and 14 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: we need to face it together. It was a move 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: that sent a larm bells ringing around Europe. A volley 16 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: of Russian attack drones breached Polish territory, the most serious 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: incursion into a NATO member state since the War in 18 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: Ukraine began in twenty twenty two. Drone warfare has been 19 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: a central part of that conflict, and it's highlighted the 20 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: importance of having sufficient defenses against these unmanned aircraft, but 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: keeping up with the fast evolving technology is challenging and expensive. 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: Here's why NATO needs better drone defenses. Our Global Defense 23 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: outitor Jerry Doyle joins me. Now for more. Jerry, First 24 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: of all, how big is the potential threat from Russian drones? 25 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 2: Well, much depends on what type of drones that they're 26 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: sending out. These one way attack drones, the heavier ones that'shahead, 27 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 2: those can do serious damage. They had the explosive potential 28 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: of a one hundred and fifty five millimeters our toury 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: show perhaps more. Other drones are used for surveillance and 30 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: reconnaissance spotting for our toury, and sometimes they just are 31 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: phone around to cause confusion and harassment. So much depends 32 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: on what type of drones are being used. The ones 33 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 2: that actually pull across the border did not seem to 34 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 2: pose too much of a military threat, but certainly they 35 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: could cause confusion and alarm on the ground. Certainly they 36 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 2: could gather information about the disposition and placement of European 37 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: military forces. And certainly they do show Russia something about 38 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 2: the preparedness and the defenses that Europe has on the 39 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: ground to deal with this type of threat. 40 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: So what sort of defenses do NATO countries along that 41 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: eastern border actually have against drones at the moment. 42 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: Well, they have the same sort of defenses that they 43 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 2: do against other sort of aerial threats, missiles and radars 44 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: and in some cases consider just designed to shoot down 45 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 2: aircraft that are designed to shoot down cruise missiles, sort 46 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 2: of higher end threats that demand sort of a higher 47 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: end type response. The problem that they run into is 48 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: that it's not that these defenses can't handle drones. It's 49 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: that the cost of a drone is much lower than 50 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: the cost of missile or an aircraft sent up to 51 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: intercept them. 52 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: So what would a drone wall that Oursila Vanderline has 53 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: talked about actually involve. 54 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: Nobody knows yet. The EU doesn't know yet, NATO doesn't 55 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: know yet. The architecture for that kind of a system 56 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: doesn't exist. I think theoretically what they would be looking 57 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 2: at would be less of a wall and more of 58 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: a intensely integrated detection network, so that any drones that 59 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: came over the border, there wouldn't be any lag time 60 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: in terms of protecting them. When they came over, there 61 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: wouldn't be any confusion about where they were headed and 62 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: the appropriate response would be easier to dial up. Now, 63 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: there are other sorts of aspect to this, where you 64 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 2: could interpret a drone wall it literally mean a collection 65 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: of drone interceptors sort of small drones to shoot down 66 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 2: other drones that could be deployed from the border to 67 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: do that sort of thing. But nobody has that yet. Again, 68 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: the architecture for it doesn't exist, and it's unclear whether 69 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: that's the direction they're going to ultimately go. 70 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: So what, broadly speaking are the challenges in building up 71 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: defenses to this type of drone technology, which is changing 72 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: so quickly. 73 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: The biggest challenge is expense, Right, the technology for radars 74 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:21,679 Speaker 2: is there, The technology for infrared sensors and optical sensors 75 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 2: are all there, and indeed, as we see from other 76 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 2: defensive platforms that are used to shoot down crews, missiles 77 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 2: and aircraft, the missiles are there too. The trick is 78 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 2: going to be to scale these things down and work 79 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: them out in such a way where the cost of 80 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 2: shooting down a drone is not so wildly over the 81 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: cost of the drone itself, which again is why people 82 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: are looking at using small drones to intercept drone. They're 83 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 2: looking at systems that you sort of radar directed guns instead, 84 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 2: so that you're shooting down drones with the bullet, which 85 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 2: is obviously much less expensive than a missile. Are you 86 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: using electronic warfare systems which would basically radio frequency jammers 87 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: that can confuse or disable drones as they fly nearby. 88 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: And then lasers which are again big costly to develop, 89 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: but the individual cost per shot of a laser is 90 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: quite low. 91 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: How long would it take to build up defenses like. 92 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: This in a small area, Not necessarily very long. But 93 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: I think the challenge here on top of cost is 94 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: the scale of Europe's border with Russia or with the 95 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: areas where Russia might do these sort of drone incursions. 96 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: It's a vast geographical area, and so building up a 97 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: metaphorical wall of drone detection, you know, it could take years. Again, 98 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 2: not because the technology isn't there, but because building out 99 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: enough systems and deploying them and the manufacturing required would 100 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 2: would take some time. 101 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: Do we have good examples of areas where NATO has 102 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: been able to have that sort of cooperation at cross borders, because, 103 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 1: of course we're talking about a lot of different countries 104 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: along this border as well, each with their own national 105 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: military and defenses. 106 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: I think they're quite good cooperation already in this sort 107 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 2: of larger air defense sphere where NTO aircraft for years 108 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 2: have been sent up to intercept Russian crude aircraft that 109 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: have flown into or nearby European airspace. And so that cooperation, 110 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 2: that handing off of information between countries and deciding whose 111 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 2: jets are going to go up and do the interception 112 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 2: that's already happening. So that sort of muscle memory is there, 113 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: it just has to be employed in a different realm. 114 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: Okay, Jerry Doyler, Global Defense Editor, Thank you very much. 115 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: For more explanations like this from our team of three 116 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: thousand journalists and analysts around the world, go to Bloomberg 117 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: dot com slash explainers. I'm Stephen Carroll. This is here's why. 118 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with more. Thanks for listening.