1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb. 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with Part three 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 3: in our series on the Swaro cactus of the Sonoran Desert. 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 3: Now this is part three. This is a series where 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 3: this episode will make a lot more sense if you 8 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 3: go back and listen to the previous two episodes first, 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 3: but do briefly refresh. In the past couple of episodes, 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 3: we talked about the natural anthromorphism of the swarrow, We 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 3: talked about how slowly it grows, we talked about its 12 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 3: biological adaptations for surviving in extremely arid conditions, and we 13 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,279 Speaker 3: also talked a bit about its history and nomenclature. And 14 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 3: today we're back to finish up the discussion. But before 15 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 3: we get into the meat of today's episode, rob I 16 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 3: wanted to briefly come back to a question that I 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 3: asked you in part two. Since you have recently visited 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 3: the Sonoran Desert. You were there among these cacti and 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 3: you went hiking, didn't you. 20 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: Yes, a couple of times? Yeah, Okay, so. 21 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 3: You're out in sorrow country. They're all around, Yes, yes, yeah, 22 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 3: And I asked if you noticed the cacti making any 23 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 3: noticeable sounds. The main thing I was actually wondering was 24 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 3: do they creak like trees in a forest when the 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 3: wind blows. I couldn't get a very clear answer on that. 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 3: Some people kind of say they do, just googling, But 27 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 3: in the time since the last episode, I went looking 28 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,839 Speaker 3: up questions about whether sorrows make sounds, and in one 29 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 3: sense the answer is yes, because the main thing I 30 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 3: actually came across was a post from the National Parks 31 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 3: Trust talking about how when the wind blows, if you 32 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 3: stand close to a sorrow, you will hear a hissing 33 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: or high whistling sound, which is apparently caused by the 34 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: wind into flowing around its ribs and through its spines. 35 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 3: Sot a whistling cactus. 36 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wish I had thought to listen for this. Namely, 37 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: the soundscape that I remember is, you know, more like 38 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 2: the you know, we would hear the wind and the breeze, rather, 39 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: you know, the crunch of rocks and pebbles beneath one's feet, 40 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. Bugs, insects, sometimes bees. 41 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 3: I don't know if this is generally true about the desert, 42 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 3: but just from personal experience, I remember being in the 43 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 3: desert in the American Southwest was one of the quietest 44 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: places I ever remember being in nature. So I, you know, 45 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 3: did some hikes when we were in Big Ben National 46 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 3: Park in Texas, and that's a beautiful desert landscape, but 47 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 3: I remember it being quite striking. There were times when 48 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 3: I would like hike out and you know, the middle 49 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 3: of a trail out there'd be very hot and I 50 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 3: heard just like nothing. It was like more quiet than 51 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 3: I ever remember anything being anywhere outside. 52 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a stillness and to it, for sure, 53 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: And you know, some of the hikes we were doing, 54 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 2: we were not that far from civilization and you could 55 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: you could see it. You could see like the housing 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 2: developments in the distance and so forth. But even then 57 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 2: there was still something secluded feeling about it. And some 58 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: of that might tie into some of the details about 59 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: the environment that we'll get to here in a bit. 60 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: Oh cool. 61 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 3: So I know, later in today's episode, we wanted to 62 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 3: focus on human uses of the sorrow and its many products, 63 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 3: but before we get to that, I wanted to briefly 64 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 3: take a detour to look into a biological mystery about 65 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 3: the soorro and some atypical soorrow anatomy, and this concerns 66 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 3: what's known as the crystate or crested soorrow. So in 67 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 3: the first episode we talked a lot about the anthropomorphic 68 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 3: shape of the cactus. Who's got this straight column in 69 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 3: the middle like a central tree trunk. And then when 70 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 3: the in the case of a mature plant, it usually 71 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 3: has arms branching out from the central column and then 72 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 3: a single point at the top. So the central column 73 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 3: just goes straight up and then it terminates in a 74 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: slightly tapered, rounded tip. But on rare occasions, instead of 75 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 3: a central column or a branch terminating in this round, 76 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 3: tapered tip, it spreads out, sometimes wildly at the top, 77 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 3: like a fan or like a peacock's tail. So I've 78 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 3: got some pictures of this for you to look at 79 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 3: in the outline here, Rob. And so this can happen 80 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 3: to the central column of the cactus, to the trunk, 81 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 3: or to any of the cactus's limbs. And this is 82 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: especially interesting when paired with the human anatomical analogy, because 83 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 3: a crested central column can look very much like a 84 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 3: crown or maybe hair or a hat, while a crust 85 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 3: the limb can look like a waving hand on one 86 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 3: of the arms. So in most of the pictures you 87 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 3: see when you do an image search, this crest is 88 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 3: at the top of the central column or at the 89 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 3: end of a limb. But a cactus doesn't necessarily or 90 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 3: doesn't even usually stop growing when it develops a crest, 91 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 3: so quite often you will see further columns or limbs 92 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: growing well out of the fan formation. 93 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very impressive looking. It almost kind of takes 94 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 2: on a more of a coral appearance, or I guess 95 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 2: you could compare it to psychedelic art in some respects 96 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: as well. 97 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, a kind of wild, fractal radiating pattern. So interesting 98 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 3: historical fact, the first known photograph of a crested suarrow 99 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 3: comes from an unexpected place, not Arizona, but Chicago in 100 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 3: eighteen ninety three at the World's Columbian Exposition, also known 101 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 3: as the eighteen ninety three Chicago World's Fair, which we've 102 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 3: done whole episodes about in the past. So this was 103 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 3: a weird, fascinating historical event with lots of strange exhibits, 104 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: you know, some very ahead of their time. And others 105 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 3: kind of quaint historical oddities now, but one of the 106 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 3: exhibits here was what was known as an Arizona Territory display. 107 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 3: Oh so, they had shipped a bunch of flora from 108 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 3: Arizona to Chicago for this display, and one of the 109 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 3: cacti that they harvested and brought to Chicago's for the 110 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 3: people to see is a was a rare crested sorrow. 111 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 3: And I've got a picture for you to look at 112 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 3: in the outline here, Rob, So we've got a black 113 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 3: and white photo with this big house with columns and 114 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 3: then all of this Arizona plant life positioned out front 115 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 3: in the garden, including some regular soarro cactus right just 116 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 3: you know, just regular looking columns. But then one of 117 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 3: them is this beautiful strange fan shape right at the top. 118 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 3: And they I was watching a section about this in 119 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 3: a PBS documentary and it mentions that the cactus, we 120 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 3: don't know what happened to it, but it almost certainly 121 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: died from this transportation process, especially once exposed to the 122 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: cold weather in Chicago. 123 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I mean just the process of moving 124 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: it and trying to replant it as almost certain doom. 125 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: Here I was doing a little reading about this yesterday, 126 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: about the various protections that are in place for the 127 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: soarros in Arizona especially, you know, you know, to keep 128 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: people from messing with them, harvesting them, moving them, you know, 129 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: unless there is a you know, a certified reason for 130 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: it and you have a permit for it, because yeah, 131 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: they're just not gonna just can't do this with the 132 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: full grown soorrow. 133 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 3: So yeah, rip to that crested tomorrow. 134 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 2: But I mean you can see they're like roped in place, really. 135 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 3: Shackles around it. Yeah. But fortunately, despite the fact that 136 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 3: they are pretty rare, this was not the only one. 137 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 3: There are you know, hundreds or maybe thousands of these 138 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 3: things out there, and they are actually people who they 139 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 3: make it a hobby. They're like crested toorrow hunters. So 140 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 3: they go out hiking in touarrow country and try to 141 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 3: find and document the locations of known crested plants. And 142 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 3: we should note that suarrows are not the only species 143 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 3: that occasionally develop crested tips. This is seen in other 144 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 3: columnar cacti as well, but the suarow is the one 145 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 3: where it is the most visually striking and mysterious and 146 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 3: according to all of the sources I was reading, biologists 147 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 3: still do not fully agree on what causes the cresting pattern, 148 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 3: so this is somewhat an unsolved mystery. I was reading 149 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 3: about the hypothesized causes in a few different places, like 150 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 3: the There's a fact page by the National Park Service 151 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 3: that identifies a few leading hypotheses. One is that I 152 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 3: think this is an older way of thinking, is that 153 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 3: it's the result of some kind of physical trauma. Like 154 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 3: an older idea was that there were like lightning strikes. 155 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 3: Maybe when lightning hits a cactus, it starts cresting. From 156 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 3: what I can tell, this is maybe not very widely 157 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 3: subscribed to by biologists anymore. Another idea was injury from 158 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,959 Speaker 3: frost could cause this. But a different idea is that 159 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 3: it is caused by a genetic mutation. And I was 160 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 3: watching a short documentary on the crested suarows hosted by PBS, 161 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 3: which includes interviews with a sorrow expert named Bill peache 162 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 3: and Peachey explains that the soarow's normal growth. He kind 163 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 3: of compares it to blowing up a party animal balloon, 164 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 3: so like a long balloon, you know. He says, it's 165 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 3: a long tube that grows by unfolding at the growth tip, 166 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 3: and as it unfolds here it creates these plats or 167 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 3: ribs that we see along the outside of the cactus, 168 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 3: which hosts the spine clusters. And of course those clusters 169 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 3: can later turn into flowers and fruit can But these 170 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 3: plats can also have developments that turn into branches, you know, 171 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: they branch out and turn into limbs. And Peache says, quote, 172 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 3: what's happening is the control mechanism for what causes the 173 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 3: number of pleats is out of control. So instead of 174 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 3: occasionally branching, there are multiple branches on a crest and 175 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 3: it keeps branching until it can't branch anymore. So that's 176 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 3: his idea of what's going on with the growth pattern. 177 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 3: But what exactly is the underlying cause? 178 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 2: You know? 179 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 3: What goes back one step from that. Peache argues that 180 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 3: the reason the fleet growth goes out of control is 181 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 3: due to a hormonal malfunction. So he thinks that the 182 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 3: growth batter, the original growth pattern is determined by like 183 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 3: a hormonal balance, and sometimes that hormonal control malfunctions. And 184 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 3: the reason he cites for thinking this is that the 185 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 3: out of control crested growth is not necessarily permanent. Once 186 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 3: it starts, it can turn on and off, and he 187 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 3: points as evidence of this, He points to examples of 188 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 3: cacti where you get a cresting pattern start and then 189 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 3: for some reason it stops, and then there is a 190 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 3: normal stem or branch growth coming out of the crest 191 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: which just continues to grow normally after that. And Rob, 192 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 3: I've got a picture you can look at in the 193 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 3: outline here. Yeah, it's a mature saro with some branches 194 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: down below, and then up at the top there is 195 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 3: a crested section and then out of the crest are 196 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 3: actually branching to what looked like normal branches or central trunks. 197 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 2: Yeah. 198 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's Peachey's theory. But again, from what I 199 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 3: can tell, experts still do not fully agree on the explanation. 200 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 3: So there remains something of a mystery about the crests. 201 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 3: But one thing that we do know is it's not 202 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 3: a fatal condition. So you know, you might think a 203 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 3: cactus like, oh, it's doing something very rare and strange 204 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 3: that's causing alterations of its growth. You might think, well, 205 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: this cactus is doomed. I mean, I guess every plant 206 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 3: will die eventually, But a cactus with crested growth patterns 207 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 3: can go on living for a long time and it 208 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 3: appears to be otherwise healthy. It can produce flowers and 209 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 3: fruit and go on growing. 210 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, they just kind of look like the zombies in 211 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: the Last of Us. 212 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, the clickers. Yeah yeah, crest on the head. Now, 213 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 3: there's one more thing I wanted to mention. That was 214 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 3: you actually gave me the idea to look into this, 215 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 3: rob It's the so called soworrow boot. If you see 216 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 3: one of these things on its own, you might wonder 217 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 3: how does this come from a cactus. You might not 218 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 3: understand how it fits into cactus biology because it looks 219 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 3: often like a strange wooden or barkie picture or jug. Yeah, 220 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 3: but what's cool is that these structures are actually formed 221 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 3: inside the sorrow as a result of excavation by birds. 222 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 3: So they are a defense mechanism that forms in reaction 223 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 3: to tissue trauma that later can take on lives of 224 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 3: their own. 225 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: And this is definitely something that you see a lot 226 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 2: when you walk among the soaro as you see this 227 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 2: tissue damage from and you see actual sites of birds' 228 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: nests in the cactus yeah. Yeah. 229 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 3: The way this works is many birds make nests in 230 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 3: the flesh of the swarow, for example, the HeLa woodpecker 231 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 3: or the gilded flicker. These birds will pick a spot 232 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 3: high up on the trunk or on a branch, and 233 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 3: they use their beaks to dig out a hollow in 234 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 3: the plant's flesh. So the souarro is tough, but these 235 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 3: birds they've got specialized tough beaks and they dig into 236 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 3: the flesh and make a hole. And coming back to 237 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: the complexity of the you know, the kind of many 238 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 3: faceted help and harm relationships in the desert that we 239 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 3: talked about last time. That was in the context of 240 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 3: suarrows and their nurse plants. I was reading in the 241 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 3: Yetman at All book that we've talked about in the 242 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 3: past couple of episodes. In fact, we should give the 243 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: full citation again right now. This is the book The 244 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 3: Soorro Cactus, a Natural History by David Yetman, Alberto Berquez, 245 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 3: Kevin Holteen, and Michael Sanderson from the University of Arizona Press, 246 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 3: twenty twenty. But in this book, the authors have a 247 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 3: section about the soorrow boot and they're talking about the 248 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 3: relationships between these birds that peck holes in the side 249 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 3: of the cactus and the cactus itself, and they say, actually, 250 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 3: the birds might simultaneously help and harm the cactus. So 251 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 3: the harm is pretty easy to understand. They're digging a 252 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 3: hole in your flesh. But the book points out they 253 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 3: may serve as minor pollinators for the cactus flowers and 254 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 3: as vectors for dispersing the fruit seeds. And the authors 255 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 3: also mention that the birds may protect the sooro in 256 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: a way by eating larva from diseased plant tissue near 257 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 3: the nest. 258 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: Okay. 259 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 3: However, the plant responds to this attack on its tissue 260 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 3: by the birds, so it can't stop the bird from 261 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 3: digging a hole in its side, but it reacts to 262 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 3: a hole being dug by forming this dense, hard layer 263 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 3: of what the authors call callous or scar tissue around 264 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 3: the inside surface of the cavity. 265 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: So it's like, you know, the bird digs a. 266 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 3: Hole in the cactus, and then all around the inner 267 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 3: skin of that hole, the cactus is like, I'm going 268 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 3: to make tough tissue now, you know. So this hard 269 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: or tough inner layer of woody flesh remains after the 270 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 3: bird leaves, and then it may be subsequently repurposed by 271 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: other wildlife, like another bird comes along, like an owl 272 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 3: or a kestrel and makes a nest in this vacated 273 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 3: sawarow boot. But then after the cactus itself dies, this 274 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 3: tough inner cavity remains as a kind of bark like 275 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 3: jug or bowl. And this is this is what we 276 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 3: end up calling the cactus boot. So the barkie boot 277 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 3: stays even after the decomposition of the cactus. And in fact, 278 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 3: historically these boots have been repurposed by humans. So I 279 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 3: was reading about this in a few sources, but the 280 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 3: Arizona Sonora Desert Museum mentions that the thana Authum, the Epima, 281 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 3: and the Seri people all have traditions of repurposing the 282 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 3: salvaged boots as water containers. 283 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, not as boots, to be clear, but we call 284 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 2: them boots. I don't think anybody's wearing these on their feet, 285 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 2: but yeah, it's like it becomes a natural water reservoir. 286 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 2: By the way, the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum, located near Tucson, 287 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: is excellent. I've been there a couple of times. It 288 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 2: is a museum, but you might think of it more 289 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: as a botanical garden in a way like it's mostly 290 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 2: outdoors and you're walking among the different plants. There's some 291 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,719 Speaker 2: animal demonstrations as well. You can see some halina. It's 292 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: a wonderful place, So I reckon it's another place I 293 00:17:50,840 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 2: recommend if you're visiting the Tucson area, the Holy Heavily. Yeah, 294 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: all right, well let's continue with this discussion of human 295 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: beings and the soaro. So well, you know, obviously relatively 296 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 2: new classification to Western science. This we discussed in the 297 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 2: first episode, but the native peoples of the Sonoran Desert 298 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 2: obviously knew about the soaro for millennia, and they had 299 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: different names for it. So the thana Apham called it 300 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: the hashan or hassan, and they derive multiple resources from 301 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 2: the cactus. We'll discuss some of these, but food, drink, lumber, tools, 302 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: and shade. The coastal Sonoran people called the Seri call 303 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: it the Mohepe, and the southern Sonoran Maos and Yaquis 304 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: people called it the Sagwo. I may be mispronouncing this, 305 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 2: but it's sag u o and this would be where 306 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 2: we get sa g u a r o soar from. 307 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 2: So this would this seems to be where we get 308 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 2: the main name for this organism. Now, colonial recognition of 309 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 2: the suarro was ultimately sketchy and limited. We got into 310 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 2: that a little bit. The authors of these Soarro cactus 311 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 2: point out that for a long time the Sonoran Desert 312 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 2: was just difficult country for the Spanish. He was far 313 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 2: from Mexico City, and people who ventured here generally encountered 314 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 2: less than friendly receptions from native people's And so the 315 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 2: sowaro is often briefly described it's looped in with other cacti. 316 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 2: And there were plenty of Spanish botanists that were interested 317 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: in the cacti of the Americas, but their work tended 318 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: to focus on species outside of this far flung and 319 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 2: difficult country. Now, coming back to the thana Aphem, there, 320 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 2: of course natives of the Sonoran Desert, and they occupied 321 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 2: these lands when Europeans first ventured there. They reside here still, 322 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 2: though their lands in society were artificially divided by colonial influences. 323 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: So I'm going to be referring to an older work 324 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 2: of scholarship, and I may fall into past tense a 325 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 2: little bit talking about some of these practices, but I 326 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 2: do want to stress at the top here that we're 327 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 2: discussing the people who are still very much around and 328 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 2: still very very active in the world, so they do 329 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: not exist in the past tense. So obviously they have 330 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 2: a lot of experience with the Suaro and it has 331 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 2: an important place in their culture. That University of Arizona 332 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: book we've been referencing includes a paper titled the Annual 333 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 2: Soarro Harvest and Crop Cycle of the Papago with reference 334 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 2: to Ecology and Symbolism, and this was by Frank S. 335 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 2: Cross White, which David Yetman explains. The title here uses 336 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: a now outdated Spanish name for the thana Athham people. 337 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 2: They moved away from this title in a firmer sense 338 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 2: about the same time that the paper came out, or 339 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: maybe a little bit after, so it's a nineteen eighty paper, 340 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: but the name issue aside, is still rather informative and 341 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: is considered like a foundational work. So cross White wrote 342 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 2: that the thana Apham were very connected with the environment, 343 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: and their charting and perception of time is very much 344 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: based and is in tune with the ebb and flow 345 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 2: of the natural world, as you might expect, and as 346 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 2: far as the sowarrow is concerned for them. June is 347 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 2: soorrow harvest month, the time during which they'd harvest, process, 348 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: and eat the fruit of this mighty cactus. May is 349 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 2: the month when soarrow's seeds are turning black in the 350 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: developing fruit, the painful month that still invokes optimism for 351 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: the coming harvest, and as early as March, rituals are 352 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 2: performed and were performed to ensure a good harvest to follow. 353 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 2: Some of these rituals involved the grinding of soorrow seeds 354 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 2: and placing the results in a basket with quote four 355 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 2: pieces of rib from a soaro skeleton, one at each 356 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: cardinal point. And then they're singing. There's divination and there 357 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 2: is a consumption of the seeds. And it's here that 358 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: he connects this with He points out that he's uncertain 359 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 2: if the basket was buried in this ritual, but he 360 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: connects it possibly to a particular resurrection legend concerning the 361 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: sowarro that I found quite beautiful and ties in with 362 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 2: someone like the deeper mythic anthropomorphism involved with the soarro. 363 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 2: So basically the story goes as follows. In this legend, 364 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 2: you have a child and this child somehow sinks into 365 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 2: the ground. I don't know, they're like pulled into the ground, 366 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 2: they fall into the ground, but at any rate, now 367 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 2: they are underground. The child's is concerned, and she turns 368 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 2: to the trickster coyote to help dig the child out. 369 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: She's like, coyote, can come help me dig my child out. Coyote, 370 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 2: of course, is a trickster spirit or deity pops up 371 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: in a number of different indigenous belief systems. So okay, 372 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: Coyote agrees to help, but coyote secretly eats the child 373 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 2: during the rescue operation and then gives the remaining bones 374 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: to the child's mother and just tells her, Hey, someone 375 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: must have eaten your son. This is all I could find. 376 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: The mother is, of course heartbroken by this, and she 377 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 2: asks coyote to bury the bones for her, and he 378 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 2: does so, and from that burial spot the first sorrow arises. 379 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 3: Interesting, so this creates some deep essential connection between humankind 380 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 3: and the sorrows, like the human being is at the 381 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 3: roots of the cactus. 382 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, and so so this seems to like 383 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 2: tie in rather deeply for the fauna awthhum people, where 384 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: the sonarrows are connected to human ancestors there's a human 385 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: heritage at play, like in a sense they are people 386 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: or there is a connection to us. I don't know, 387 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: It's one of those things that you know, English language 388 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: may be struggles to put it exactly in the right 389 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,959 Speaker 2: words that would be accurate. But I was reading that 390 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 2: in I believe twenty twenty one, the Fauna Awpham Nation 391 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 2: passed a resolution to grant soarro's legal personhood. And also 392 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 2: just there's a reminder, Arizona, under state law has it 393 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 2: illegal to cut down, damage, or move a soarrow cactus 394 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 2: without a permit, So they enjoy protection on multiple fronts 395 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 2: within the region of what is now Arizona. 396 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, yet yet another reason not to go into the 397 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 3: desert shooting them, as we dissessed in part one. 398 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, I mean I thought back on that story too, 399 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 2: Like when you consider the idea that the native inhabitants 400 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: of this area saw these cacti as being you know, 401 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 2: ancestors in a certain sense, you know, is having is 402 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 2: being so vitally connected with people, Like it makes it 403 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 2: even more offensive that somebody would go out and like 404 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: ram their car into one on purpose, or shoot it 405 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: on purpose and try to mess with it or drag 406 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,719 Speaker 2: it to a World's Fair in chicag Right. Yes, yeah, 407 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 2: So let's come back to this harvest. So there's a 408 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 2: lot of detail given in this paper about the harvest, 409 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 2: what it historically entailed, and also how it changed a 410 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: bit with the advent of technology and so forth. But 411 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: historically it entailed setting up a camp, like a temporary 412 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 2: camp among the suaro in the rocky foothills. So again, 413 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: this is not an area where the people would be 414 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: staying year round. They would come here only for the harvest, 415 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: and they'd have to bring everything they'd need to survive, 416 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 2: including water from their winter camping locations that they had 417 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: been at previously. 418 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 3: So I apologize if you already said this, But would 419 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 3: this be in the summertime, because that's when the main 420 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 3: fruiting is happening. Yes, yekay, yeah, so I imagine it's hot. Yeah, yeah, 421 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 3: it's hot. They have to make sure they have water, 422 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 3: because again we already touched on, you can't drink water 423 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 3: from the soaro, not at least not if you're trying 424 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 3: to avoid having disastrous vomiting and diarrhea in the desert. 425 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 3: So they don't drink the water, they bring the water 426 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 3: they have to bring all the water that they're going 427 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 3: to use for their own consumption and for the processing 428 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 3: of the fruit, which we'll get into. 429 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also pointed out that one of the 430 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 2: big things about it too is this is a highly 431 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 2: social event, so sometimes you know they're timing it so 432 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 2: they're arriving just a little early, so there's a lot 433 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 2: of socialization and anticipation of the fruit harvest. So usually 434 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: it eventually anyway, they'd use horses and wagons and still 435 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 2: later trucks, but originally all this would be carried out 436 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: on foot water to drink again water for cactus fruit preparation, 437 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 2: dried jack rabbit beans, and then the author points out 438 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: by the nineteen seventies you would have things like spaghetti 439 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 2: and cold cuts, you know, whatever was more readily available, 440 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: and the grinding stones and the poles that were important 441 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: for the harvesting and processing. These would remain at the 442 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: site year round, so I think they would bury the 443 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 2: stone and the poles would just be kind of like 444 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 2: placed to the side, and also the olas, the ceramic 445 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 2: pots that they'd use. I think they would also try 446 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: and keep these on sites so they wouldn't have to 447 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 2: drag these in, especially again in a time when they 448 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 2: weren't using trucks or weren't even using horses and wagons. 449 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 3: Right, So you'd store the tools of industry because it's 450 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 3: not practical or even necessary to take them back and. 451 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: Forth, right and like apparently nobody's going to mess with them, 452 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 2: you know, for the most part. And it's also detailed 453 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 2: that there was like a fascinating ritual to it here 454 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: that also gets back to this human connection with the cactus. 455 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 2: Apparently each person involved in the harvest was supposed to 456 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 2: take the first fruit they harvested, open it up, and 457 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: I would describe before how it's like this like red 458 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 2: pink pulpyness to it, and it's juicy. They would rip 459 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: this open and then they would apply that red pulp 460 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: to their heart, giving a prayer of thanks. So this 461 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: like association between the fruit of the cactus and blood 462 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: and the heart, you know, it's all rather striking, and 463 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 2: it seems like other peoples surrounding peoples that would engage 464 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: in some level of harvesting of the soaro fruit would 465 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 2: also have engage in a similar practice. Joe I included 466 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 2: a photograph for you here various Photographs can be found 467 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: online of the fruit of the soarrow being opened up. 468 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: But yeah, you can see that it has a you know, 469 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 2: it's fleshy. It looks like paint or red, and you 470 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: see all those little tiny black seeds, which I'm to understand. 471 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: The seeds have slightly oily taste, and the flesh is 472 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: often described to you know, as you know, it sweet, 473 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 2: and certainly once it's been processed, it takes on almost 474 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 2: like a raspberry jam kind of consistency. But it also 475 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 2: can certainly be eaten like straight at harvest, to be 476 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 2: eaten raw, and that is one way that it is 477 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 2: enjoyed on site. 478 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 3: But in some of the pictures you can see the seeds. 479 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 3: It's not like a few large seeds like you might 480 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 3: I don't know in watermelon or something. It's like swarming 481 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 3: with many smaller seeds, so it can look kind of 482 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 3: like ants. 483 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a lot of seeds in there. Now, the 484 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: I mentioned the poles because again, these the fruit are 485 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: high up on the cactus, so how are you gonna 486 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 2: get those down. You're not bringing step ladders out, you're 487 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 2: not bringing scaffolding out. You climb, you can't really climb 488 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 2: the cactus, So what are you going to do? Well, 489 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 2: they had these poles and they were called I think 490 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: coupad is the word. And according to the National Park Service, 491 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: they were traditionally constructed out of sowaro ribs. Because remember, 492 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: this is the Kingdom of the Suarrow, this is the 493 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 2: forest of the Suaro. There's nothing if you're looking for 494 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 2: tree branches or hanging around that are going to be 495 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 2: long enough to use. I mean, there's nothing really out 496 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 2: there as tall as the Solaro, So it makes sense 497 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: to use the ribs of dead ones. 498 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 3: Makes a lot of sense. 499 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, included a picture here for you to refer to, Joe, 500 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: but you people can find picks online. There's a Good 501 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 2: Trust for Public Land article from twenty twenty five detailing 502 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 2: the practice, leaning heavily on the multi generational knowledge of 503 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: Thana Atham Member A Nation member Tanisha Tucker, and the 504 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 2: article describes that these poles were lightweight, which is good 505 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: because you're going to be holding them up for hours 506 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 2: at a time during the harvest. They tend to be 507 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 2: about twenty feet long, with a cross piece at the 508 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 2: top of the pole that's used to hook the fruits. 509 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 2: Cross white chairs that sometimes three ribs were used instead 510 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 2: of two, and you know, obviously later on other materials 511 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 2: end up being used as well if they become available, 512 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 2: if they're brought in. But this is the traditional way, 513 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 2: and this tradition is still practiced to this day. Now. 514 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,239 Speaker 2: As for the fruits themselves, Tucker describes them as a 515 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: true desert superfood full of minerals and antioxidants. But they 516 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 2: don't last, so the bounty has to be either consumed 517 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 2: raw on site, and apparently there's a lot of that, 518 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 2: you know, I think I think it's She points out 519 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 2: that the best ones you eat while you harvest, You 520 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: pull down a really nice one, don't save it for process, 521 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 2: and you just go ahead and eat it at that moment. 522 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean that makes sense with a lot 523 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 3: of you know, fruits and crops, right like yeah, like 524 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 3: a like a good crisp apple is great on its own. 525 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 3: If there's one that's not so good, that can be 526 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 3: apple sauce or apple juice or whatever. 527 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: I always feel bad doing this harvesting strawberries, like recreational 528 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: strawberry harvesting, you know where you go out to the 529 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 2: strawberry farm and you pay them pick your own with 530 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: a bucket. I always feel bad if I eat a 531 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,959 Speaker 2: really juicy one, like on the spot. I don't know, 532 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 2: because I guess I haven't paid for it yet either. 533 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 2: There's that, but but that is also the temptation, and 534 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,719 Speaker 2: I think maybe it speaks to something deeper in us, 535 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 2: in our our fruit gathering past. 536 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean thinking about it these days, usually 537 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 3: when people talk about processed foods, there that's spoken with 538 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 3: a negative connotation because you're talking people are talking about 539 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 3: nutritional concerns about ultra processed foods or something. But I 540 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 3: would say, you know, across all different food traditions, in 541 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 3: a way, processed foods are a great way to make 542 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 3: use of less than ideal you know, pieces of fruit 543 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 3: or vegetable or something like that. You know it might 544 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 3: not be attractive in its whole form, but you can 545 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 3: still turn it into some downstream processed product where you 546 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 3: can't tell the difference. 547 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. And also the key thing too here being that 548 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 2: it's something that will keep because the primary sowarow fruit 549 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 2: products end up being like a kind of a jelly 550 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: or syrup as well as candies and a ceremonial wine, 551 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 2: and the syrup slash jelly in particular, like that is 552 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 2: something that they can store away in earthenware containers, which 553 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 2: can then be buried or stored up on a like 554 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: a high beam or something, and this is something they 555 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 2: can continue to eat even through the winter months, and 556 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: it's the primary sweetener traditionally that they would have to 557 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 2: take advantage of. The wine would be highly ceremonial and important, 558 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 2: again tying into the the social, ritual community aspects of 559 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 2: the harvest. But yeah, so the whole process involved initially 560 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: like carving out that pulpy part of the fruit, boiling it, 561 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: skimming debris, straining out the pulp and seeds, cooking this 562 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 2: into a thick syrup that can you know, then be 563 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 2: used for various sweet purposes. Then water is added to 564 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 2: the rest, which is fermented into the ceremonial wine, and 565 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 2: then the ceremonial wine is later consumed, and then the 566 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 2: seeds are used apparently for chicken feed, so like everything 567 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 2: ends up being used for something. 568 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 3: Oh okay, yeah, I was actually just scoogling something on 569 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 3: the side because I remembered reading something about thal authum 570 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 3: use of the seeds, not just the pulp of the fruit, 571 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,439 Speaker 3: but used of the seeds. I think like they could 572 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 3: be ground down and used in like a porridge or 573 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 3: something as well. 574 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, Yeah, there are multiple purposes 575 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 2: that are in play here. I've only highlighted some of 576 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 2: the key ones. And then at the same time, you know, birds, squirrels, 577 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: various organisms that we've mentioned. They're also trying to take 578 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: advantage of the fruit. So there's a lot of activity 579 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 2: around all of this. The jam crossway point shares with 580 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 2: their primary traditional sweetener, the wild honey, could sometimes be 581 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: acquired and this could sometimes be added to the syrup 582 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,399 Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, and then like I said, it could 583 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 2: be stored, you could use it throughout the winter, and 584 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 2: Westerners who sampled it, they often compared it to something 585 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 2: like raspberry jam. So just just super fascinating, Like you know, 586 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 2: how it becomes this this you know, this the central 587 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: like defining seasonal aspect of the society here. 588 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that that social celebration aspect is interesting, especially in 589 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 3: that what you were just talking about, in that it's 590 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 3: a it's a fruit harvest that is not purely like 591 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 3: work to store up things for later. Like you are, 592 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 3: you are celebrating and enjoying a lot of the fruits 593 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 3: right now in the moment of harvesting, but also gathering 594 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 3: stuff for later. 595 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so so yeah. I just found it super 596 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 2: interesting interesting to read about. Uh, if anyone out there 597 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 2: listening has any connections, you know, closer connections to the practice, 598 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 2: or certainly if we have any listeners of the that 599 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 2: are you know, connected to the Autum tribe, certainly right 600 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 2: in with any added details, we'd love to hear from you, please, yes, Now, 601 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 2: before we close up this episode, I want to turn 602 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 2: to another topic that I found really interesting that gets 603 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 2: into the place that the sawaro has in the modern 604 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 2: world and a world that humans continue to change. So 605 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,240 Speaker 2: it's important to stress that while some trees in the world, 606 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 2: some plants are are fire resistant, some cacti are fire resistant. 607 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 2: The prickly pear is often thrown up. There's an example 608 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 2: of this. You know, many trees depend on the cycles 609 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 2: of wildfires, but the sowaro is not one of them. 610 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 2: They're highly susceptible to fire damage, and aspects of their 611 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,720 Speaker 2: Sonoran environment have seemingly protected them from widespread fire damage 612 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 2: for quite a while, but this is changing due to 613 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 2: human introduced factors. Oh interesting, yeppen at all point out 614 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 2: that invasive grasses like red brome and buffal grass. I 615 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 2: know buffal grass sounds super fun, but not outside of 616 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 2: its original range. Red brome and buffal grass have greatly 617 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 2: enhanced fire threats to the sowaro. So red brome is 618 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 2: of Mediterranean origin, likely spread to North America as a 619 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 2: seed contaminant during the mid eighteen hundreds. It spreads, it 620 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 2: pushes out local grasses, and once its seeds are set, 621 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,760 Speaker 2: it dries out and becomes this clump of fire hazard. 622 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 2: Red brome can handle fire on its own, but not 623 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 2: so many of the plants it thrives among in these 624 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 2: introduced environments in the Americas. The authors here point out 625 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 2: that in moist Arizona deserts, range fires fueled primarily by 626 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 2: red brome have destroyed just thousands of sworrows, among other 627 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 2: native desert plants. Buffalo grass is African in origin and 628 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 2: was intentionally injured introduced in the nineteen seventies by the 629 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 2: US Department of Agriculture to improve cattle forage. And this 630 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 2: one forms dense clumps of clumps of grass. And when 631 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 2: these dry out, you guessed it, they're kindling for range fires. 632 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 2: And once more we have a case where the alien 633 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 2: grass evolved it depends on annual fires, so it's not 634 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 2: negatively impacted by blazes. But the same is not true 635 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 2: of the native Sonoran vegetation. It's another case where the 636 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 2: introduction of an alien species leads to short term gains 637 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 2: for farmers ranchers and then long term ecological damage. 638 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 3: Now, I apologize if this just went over my head, 639 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 3: but what is the main mechanism that these grasses make 640 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 3: the fire more threating to the suaros? Is it just 641 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 3: the fact that they allow fire to spread in areas 642 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 3: where it wouldn't spread normally. 643 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 2: Right, And then also we'll get into this in just 644 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 2: a second, but it also comes down to how it 645 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 2: in a broader sense, it disrupts the sort of natural 646 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: spacing that prevents wildfires from raging in the Sonoran desert. Okay, yeah, 647 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 2: So I was reading a bit about this on the 648 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 2: website of the Southwest Fire Science Consortium and they write, quote, 649 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 2: unprecedented large scale fires in recent years, especially in twenty 650 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 2: five and twenty twenty, have been driven by the exponential 651 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 2: expansion of introduced invasive species. An ecological transition from desert 652 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 2: scrub to grassland has begun, which creates management and societal 653 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 2: challenges as fire becomes a part of the ecology of 654 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 2: the Sonoran Desert. 655 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 3: Okay, so these invasive grasses and other invasive plants change 656 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 3: the spatial arrangement of fuel sources in the landscape exactly. 657 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 2: So Traditionally, they point out, the Sonoran Desert is characterized 658 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 2: by quote an openness of inherent patchiness and vegetation. So 659 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 2: you have, you know, like I was saying, there's a 660 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 2: lot of life out there, and you know, you can 661 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 2: compare to the bottom of the sea or what have you. 662 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 2: You have large areas of bare ground between vegetation areas 663 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 2: which provide quote insufficient continuity of fuel for fire. And 664 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 2: this has seemingly protected the desert habitat here at least 665 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 2: for the last century and probably longer. I you know, 666 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 2: as I'll bring up again here, there's there's not a 667 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 2: lot of great historical evidence of past forest fires to 668 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 2: really lean on here, but that's everyone's best guess. So 669 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 2: for instance, in the last episode we mentioned lightning strikes 670 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 2: on Solorrows. Well, if it's such a strike were to 671 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 2: produce fire, it would, at least with a historical situation, 672 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 2: it would be far less life to spread to the 673 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 2: next island of vegetation in this sort of sprawling archipelago 674 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 2: of vegetation clumps. You know, so like here's kind of 675 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 2: like one island of some cacti and desert plants, but 676 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 2: then there's there's kind of like a natural barrier to 677 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 2: a to a wildfire. There's like nothing between it and 678 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 2: the next area. And this would be like the sort 679 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 2: of natural built in protection that these plants have adapted 680 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 2: to thrive in. I see. Yeah, yeah. So the authors 681 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 2: here point out that the fire return intervals here are 682 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 2: estimated to exceed one hundred to one thousand years, though 683 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,439 Speaker 2: again these models haven't been tested due to the lack 684 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 2: of evidence for historical fires, but they really drive home 685 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 2: the changes that have occurred and the changes that are 686 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 2: continuing to occur in this region, thus requiring just an 687 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 2: evolving counterfire protocol, like what we used to do just 688 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 2: won't work anymore, and you know, having to do things 689 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 2: it would not have been necessarily necessary previously they were write. Quote. 690 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 2: In addition to fires in desert valleys and flats, a 691 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 2: new fire mosaic is being established in the region whereby 692 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,320 Speaker 2: wildfires driven by invasive grasses can spread from the forested 693 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 2: mountains to the desert valleys and vice versa. Yikes. Yeah, 694 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 2: so just again, you throw in these these invasive plants 695 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 2: and they just begin to change things in such a 696 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 2: dramatic fashion. And we've talked about invasive desert plants before. 697 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 2: We did episodes on the tumbleweed, which is itself despite 698 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 2: the fact that it is in many ways as iconic 699 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 2: as the suaros, like a symbol of the American desert, 700 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 2: but it itself, it has its origins on another continent. 701 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 2: It is, it is not a native species. 702 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 3: It's funny that connection because the tumbleweed also plays an 703 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 3: interesting role in the spread of fire and like prairie 704 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 3: areas where it can be known as a fire break jumper, 705 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 3: where like, you know, a tumbleweed can catch fire and 706 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 3: then leap over fire breaks to you know, set flame 707 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:10,760 Speaker 3: to new areas. 708 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so, uh yeah, I found this very fascinating. Now, 709 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 2: on top of this, this is not the only threat in 710 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,439 Speaker 2: place yet. Men and all also point out that, of course, 711 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 2: climate change is a big one. We've touched on that already. 712 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 2: We've talked about how you know, despite the fact that 713 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 2: the Souarro is doing well, and you know it has 714 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 2: its its niche and is the you know, kind of 715 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 2: the king of the Sonoran Desert. At the same time, 716 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 2: you know it's it's sensitive, it can things can easily 717 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 2: easily be thrown out of whack. There. On top of that, 718 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 2: you still have the threat of habitat destruction. At the 719 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 2: time of the riding, they indicated that most of the 720 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 2: threat was further south in Mexico. Again, we've stressed like 721 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,879 Speaker 2: the various protections that are in place and have been 722 00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:02,320 Speaker 2: successfully put in place in Arizona for a while. But again, 723 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 2: you had that protection in place, it doesn't protect them 724 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 2: from things like introducing an invasive grass for cattle that 725 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 2: ends up being a threat. And then they also point 726 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 2: out that you end up having illegal trade in sorrow 727 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 2: ribs for use in furniture. So it's important to note 728 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 2: here that dead soarrows are also protected. So just because 729 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 2: the plant's dead doesn't mean you have right to go 730 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 2: out and start ripping it apart and taking the ribs away. 731 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 2: But since the ribs have been used in furniture and 732 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 2: have this unique look, it ends up encouraging a poaching 733 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 2: and killing trade where people are going out and acquiring 734 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 2: these ribs in ways they shouldn't. 735 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 3: Right, So if there's an active market for it, even 736 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,359 Speaker 3: just created by dead ribs that have been scavenged, that 737 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 3: creates an incentive for poaching of live ones. 738 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 2: Right, And you know I would I'm just guessing here. 739 00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,320 Speaker 2: I don't think they mentioned the sowarrow boot, but obviously 740 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 2: the Suarro boot is an interesting curio that is left 741 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 2: over from a dead sarrow, and I could see that 742 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 2: being impacted as well, certainly if there was some sort 743 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,280 Speaker 2: of demand for those. 744 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 3: And like the craft market, Yeah, we're all but I 745 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 3: think we're sort of coming to the end here. But 746 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 3: I've really enjoyed this look at Souorrow is something I 747 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 3: didn't really know much about it all going in. But 748 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:30,720 Speaker 3: they are strange, beautiful, majestic human so so many things, 749 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 3: and there I didn't know how much I didn't know 750 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:34,919 Speaker 3: about them. 751 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel the same way. I mean, I've walked 752 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,279 Speaker 2: among them and I've learned about them, you know, I've 753 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,160 Speaker 2: read about them in the past, but I still discovered 754 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 2: things in the research here that were entirely new to me. 755 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,239 Speaker 2: And so it's going to make the next time I 756 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 2: walk among the soaro even more rewarding. All right, then, yeah, 757 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 2: we're going to go and close it out. We're just 758 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 2: gonna go ahead and remind everyone out there that Stuff 759 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 2: to bliw Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, 760 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 2: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursday, short format episodes 761 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 2: on Wednesdays and on Fridays. We set aside most serious 762 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 2: concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird 763 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 2: House Cinema. If you were watching us on Netflix in 764 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 2: video form, well, we'll just remind everyone out there that 765 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 2: we have a deep archive of audio content. Wherever you 766 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 2: get your audio podcasts and wherever that happens to be. 767 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 2: We just would ask that you rate, review, and subscribe. 768 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:21,719 Speaker 2: You know, those are the things you can do to 769 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 2: help support this podcast moving forward. 770 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Jjposway. 771 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:29,799 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 772 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 773 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,720 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 774 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 775 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 776 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 777 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app 778 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.