WEBVTT - Pushkin Hosts Celebrate World Happiness Day 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:24.356 Pushkin. Hello, and if you're listening to this on March twentieth, 0:00:24.476 --> 0:00:28.236 Happy World Happiness Day. On the Happiness Lab, we suggest 0:00:28.276 --> 0:00:30.636 you do something to improve your well being every day 0:00:30.636 --> 0:00:33.396 of the year, but if the United Nations wants us 0:00:33.396 --> 0:00:35.636 all to make a special effort for twenty four hours 0:00:35.676 --> 0:00:39.116 in March, then we're on board with that too. The 0:00:39.156 --> 0:00:42.756 first International Day of Happiness was celebrated back in twenty thirteen. 0:00:43.316 --> 0:00:45.396 The goal was to raise awareness that our well being 0:00:45.476 --> 0:00:48.836 can be approved if only more governments enacted policies to 0:00:48.836 --> 0:00:52.156 help us all become a little happier. On each International 0:00:52.236 --> 0:00:55.116 Day of Happiness, the United Nations also issues the World 0:00:55.116 --> 0:00:59.476 Happiness Report, written by scientists and academics. This report examines 0:00:59.516 --> 0:01:01.836 different themes, showing what we're getting right when it comes 0:01:01.876 --> 0:01:04.116 to happiness and what we still need to work on. 0:01:04.716 --> 0:01:07.796 Past reports have looked at happiness and parenting, what living 0:01:07.836 --> 0:01:10.676 in cities does for our happiness, and more recently, the 0:01:10.676 --> 0:01:13.076 impact that COVID nineteen has had on our well being. 0:01:13.756 --> 0:01:15.876 Over the next few episodes of the Happiness Lab, we'll 0:01:15.916 --> 0:01:18.996 be talking to the experts behind this year's World Happiness Report. 0:01:19.316 --> 0:01:21.356 They're among the best and brightest in the field of 0:01:21.356 --> 0:01:24.556 happiness science. So these are going to be some fantastic episodes, 0:01:25.196 --> 0:01:27.796 But for the show today, we're doing something a little different. 0:01:28.276 --> 0:01:31.236 The Happiness Lab is made by Pushkin Industries, and many 0:01:31.236 --> 0:01:33.796 of the network's other hosts have some pretty interesting takes 0:01:33.796 --> 0:01:36.316 on what can make us all happier, so I decided 0:01:36.316 --> 0:01:38.316 to talk to them about what they would have put 0:01:38.396 --> 0:01:41.636 in this year's World Happiness Report. A little later, you'll 0:01:41.636 --> 0:01:44.396 hear from revisionist Histories Malcolm Gladwell. 0:01:44.236 --> 0:01:47.196 I'm perfectly happy to suffer, but I will not suffer 0:01:47.236 --> 0:01:47.996 for six hours. 0:01:48.236 --> 0:01:50.596 And from Tim Hartford from cautionary. 0:01:50.076 --> 0:01:54.116 Tales, the surgeon would leave the probe in, so to speak, 0:01:54.236 --> 0:01:55.476 without wiggling it around. 0:01:55.756 --> 0:01:57.956 But we'll kick it off with an old, old friend 0:01:57.956 --> 0:01:58.436 of mine. 0:01:58.516 --> 0:02:01.476 It's worth sharing with folks that I've actually known you 0:02:01.556 --> 0:02:05.036 since I was seventeen years old. I was a student 0:02:05.076 --> 0:02:05.556 of yours. 0:02:05.636 --> 0:02:08.516 I was full eight years now. 0:02:07.516 --> 0:02:09.796 Now it feels like it's been so how much longer? 0:02:10.116 --> 0:02:12.476 This is Maya Schunker. I taught her back when she 0:02:12.556 --> 0:02:15.036 was an undergraduate at Yale, and we kept in touch 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:17.556 after she graduated and went to work at the White House, 0:02:17.796 --> 0:02:21.036 where she advised the Obama administration on how behavioral science 0:02:21.076 --> 0:02:25.196 can improve government policy. These days, Maya hosts The Pushkin Show, 0:02:25.316 --> 0:02:27.996 a slight Change of Plans, a podcast about who we 0:02:28.156 --> 0:02:31.796 become when we face big challenges and decisions. Given all that, 0:02:31.996 --> 0:02:34.516 she was perhaps the perfect person to ask my question, 0:02:35.196 --> 0:02:37.756 if you were writing a chapter of the World Happiness Report, 0:02:38.396 --> 0:02:39.276 what would it be about? 0:02:39.596 --> 0:02:42.876 Okay, Well, this one's really easy for me because I 0:02:42.876 --> 0:02:47.116 think there is one thing that erodes my happiness more 0:02:47.156 --> 0:02:51.156 than anything else, and it's what our psychologist's friend, Ethan 0:02:51.236 --> 0:02:52.716 Cross calls mental chatter. 0:02:52.916 --> 0:02:55.036 Oh yeah, so Ethan Cross, he's a professor at the 0:02:55.116 --> 0:02:57.356 University of Michigan and he's the author of this wonderful 0:02:57.396 --> 0:02:58.876 book Chatter. Yeah exactly. 0:02:59.356 --> 0:03:01.636 And it was really helpful for me when I learned 0:03:01.636 --> 0:03:04.156 about this concept because I was like, wow, Ethan, you've 0:03:04.196 --> 0:03:08.316 just captured what's been in my brain for decades. So, Laurie, 0:03:08.356 --> 0:03:11.156 can you tell us more about what mental chatter is 0:03:11.556 --> 0:03:14.476 and how does that relate to the inner dialogue that 0:03:14.516 --> 0:03:15.796 we have in our minds all the time. 0:03:16.236 --> 0:03:18.396 Yeah, well, let me start with the inner dialogue, because 0:03:18.436 --> 0:03:20.076 in some ways it's a really cool thing that we 0:03:20.156 --> 0:03:23.156 do as humans. So inner dialogue, just as it sounds, 0:03:23.276 --> 0:03:25.676 is like the self talk that you have going on 0:03:25.756 --> 0:03:27.436 in your head, and it could be about all kinds 0:03:27.436 --> 0:03:29.516 of things. Right, Our inner dialogue is how we like 0:03:29.916 --> 0:03:32.516 make sense of the world and build our own inner narrative. 0:03:32.636 --> 0:03:35.516 Our inner dialogue is how we like plan for what 0:03:35.556 --> 0:03:37.036 we're going to do after this. You know, when I 0:03:37.036 --> 0:03:38.716 was waiting for you to hop on zoom, I'm like, oh, 0:03:38.756 --> 0:03:40.636 after this, I'm gonna make dinner. And what do I 0:03:40.676 --> 0:03:42.116 have in my fridge? And I oh, I have some 0:03:42.196 --> 0:03:45.396 black beans? Like all of that is inner dialogue, right, 0:03:45.516 --> 0:03:48.396 But chatter, as Ethan defines, it, is a little bit different. 0:03:48.556 --> 0:03:51.996 It's when our inner dialogue goes to the negative. Right, 0:03:52.076 --> 0:03:54.356 So it's that inner voice of worry where you're thinking 0:03:54.396 --> 0:03:56.876 about the future and feeling anxious about what's to come, 0:03:57.396 --> 0:04:00.076 or that inner voice of rumination where you're thinking about 0:04:00.116 --> 0:04:02.356 the past and beating yourself up for something that you 0:04:02.396 --> 0:04:04.596 did do or that you didn't do, or even just 0:04:04.716 --> 0:04:06.996 like our inner voice of self criticism where we just 0:04:07.076 --> 0:04:09.596 kind of talk crap about ourselves like all the time, 0:04:09.676 --> 0:04:12.956 no matter what's going on. And so while our inner 0:04:12.996 --> 0:04:17.436 dialogue itself can be really adaptive, mental chatter is not. 0:04:17.636 --> 0:04:19.236 It kind of feels like crap, And then there's lots 0:04:19.276 --> 0:04:21.596 of evidence that it affects our performance negatively too. 0:04:22.196 --> 0:04:24.876 I remember so when I had a conversation with Ethan 0:04:25.076 --> 0:04:27.516 on a slight change of plans, it was so helpful 0:04:27.556 --> 0:04:30.396 for me to even hear this distinction, the distinction between 0:04:30.396 --> 0:04:33.396 the inner voice and dialogue and mental chatter, because I 0:04:33.396 --> 0:04:36.716 think what happens is in the throes of chatter, you 0:04:36.996 --> 0:04:39.916 are so pissed off at your brain. You're like, can 0:04:39.956 --> 0:04:43.116 you please stop? You've been ruminating over this thing for 0:04:43.316 --> 0:04:46.156 you three hours. You're not making any progress at all, 0:04:46.476 --> 0:04:48.956 and you can really start to resent your brain and 0:04:48.996 --> 0:04:51.876 resent the fact that it even has this faculty. And 0:04:51.956 --> 0:04:55.356 so when Ethan and I did more of this gratitude 0:04:55.396 --> 0:04:57.956 moment together where we appreciated our inner voice and to 0:04:58.076 --> 0:05:01.476 exactly your point, focused on all the benefits that that 0:05:01.956 --> 0:05:05.476 voice affords us in any given day, that alone helped 0:05:05.476 --> 0:05:08.636 me have a different relationship with my mental chatter, because 0:05:08.636 --> 0:05:10.076 at the end of the I thought, well, I wouldn't 0:05:10.076 --> 0:05:12.076 want to do away with my inner voice altogether. I mean, 0:05:12.116 --> 0:05:15.036 it's actually miraculous that I can travel in time to 0:05:15.076 --> 0:05:16.876 the future or the past in general. I mean, I 0:05:16.956 --> 0:05:19.036 might not like it in this moment because I'm perseparating 0:05:19.076 --> 0:05:21.036 about something even happened two weeks ago that I can 0:05:21.116 --> 0:05:24.076 no longer change. But in general, it's such a cool 0:05:24.156 --> 0:05:27.236 feature of our cognition, of human cognition, that we have 0:05:27.396 --> 0:05:30.516 the ability to have these internal conversations with ourselves. 0:05:30.836 --> 0:05:32.676 And I think the beauty is that once you understand 0:05:32.716 --> 0:05:35.836 what chatter is, you can also find strategies for controlling 0:05:35.876 --> 0:05:38.556 it when it goes to the not so great side, right, 0:05:38.596 --> 0:05:40.236 And that's the lovely thing about Ethan's work, because he 0:05:40.236 --> 0:05:42.636 has all these different strategies that we can use to 0:05:42.796 --> 0:05:45.996 like not shut our chatter up, but to use self 0:05:46.036 --> 0:05:47.756 talk to be a little bit more productive and a 0:05:47.756 --> 0:05:49.076 little bit kinder to ourselves. 0:05:49.156 --> 0:05:51.356 So let's talk about some of those strategies for those 0:05:51.396 --> 0:05:55.556 who are in the horrible loop of mental rumination. I 0:05:55.556 --> 0:05:58.036 want to give folks hope and help them see that 0:05:58.076 --> 0:05:59.876 there is light at the end of the tunnel. 0:06:00.156 --> 0:06:02.716 Well, one of Ethan's best strategies that I love because 0:06:02.756 --> 0:06:05.276 it's like so super simple, and in fact, there's lots 0:06:05.316 --> 0:06:07.356 of evidence that when you use this strategy, it doesn't 0:06:07.356 --> 0:06:10.236 take any cognitive work. It happens super fast. And that 0:06:10.316 --> 0:06:12.716 strategy is what he calls distance self talk, which is 0:06:12.756 --> 0:06:15.756 just the simple act of using your name and talking 0:06:15.836 --> 0:06:18.436 to yourself in the third person. So normally, if I'm 0:06:18.436 --> 0:06:21.276 thinking about my own like mental chatter, I'll be using 0:06:21.276 --> 0:06:22.876 the first person. I'll be like, oh, why did I 0:06:22.916 --> 0:06:24.836 do that? I said that stupid thing, like I should 0:06:24.836 --> 0:06:28.156 have thought more. But it's I I me, me, me me, right, 0:06:28.676 --> 0:06:31.356 that's a first person perspective, and that's what we often 0:06:31.476 --> 0:06:33.916 use when we get like all worrying and ruminative, because 0:06:33.916 --> 0:06:36.756 it's all about us. But distance self talk lets you 0:06:36.796 --> 0:06:39.516 get a little bit of psychological distance because instead of 0:06:39.556 --> 0:06:42.116 talking like that, you say, you know, maybe you messed 0:06:42.156 --> 0:06:44.076 up a little bit, Laurie, like, maybe this is something 0:06:44.076 --> 0:06:45.916 that you need to think about in the future. Right, 0:06:46.156 --> 0:06:48.356 So I'm using the second person you, I'm using the 0:06:48.396 --> 0:06:51.516 third person, like my name. And that is really powerful 0:06:51.516 --> 0:06:53.756 because the only time in your life you ever hear 0:06:53.876 --> 0:06:55.956 the second person you or your name is when somebody 0:06:55.996 --> 0:06:58.116 else is talking to you. And so it's this little 0:06:58.236 --> 0:07:01.956 cool linguistic device that makes us feel like we're hearing 0:07:02.036 --> 0:07:04.636 from some wise mentor we're hearing from some other person, 0:07:04.716 --> 0:07:06.916 somebody who is distance from that loop of chatter that 0:07:06.956 --> 0:07:09.436 we have going on. And Ethan's found that this simple 0:07:09.436 --> 0:07:11.116 act of doing that you don't even have to instruct 0:07:11.276 --> 0:07:14.436 subjects to like talk differently to themselves. Just the act 0:07:14.436 --> 0:07:16.476 of switching the pronouns that you use in your brain 0:07:16.836 --> 0:07:19.236 winds up making you a little bit kinder to yourself. 0:07:19.476 --> 0:07:22.076 Has all these wonderful emotional consequences where you're a little 0:07:22.076 --> 0:07:24.876 bit anxious over time, and it just lets you kind 0:07:24.876 --> 0:07:26.276 of get out of that loop so that you can 0:07:26.276 --> 0:07:28.596 perform better. And what's cool is like it doesn't take 0:07:28.636 --> 0:07:31.116 any work. It's just a matter of changing the pronouns. 0:07:31.156 --> 0:07:36.356 It's not like developing some complicated like cognitive behavior therapy strategy. 0:07:36.396 --> 0:07:38.556 It's just like you switch the pronouns and immediately you 0:07:38.556 --> 0:07:40.996 get this interesting distance from your normal chatter. 0:07:41.316 --> 0:07:44.356 Yeah. I remember reading in Ethan's book that Malala did this. 0:07:44.516 --> 0:07:47.716 Of course, Malala the most sophisticated psychologist of all time 0:07:47.756 --> 0:07:50.716 despite never having studied it, because she's such a such 0:07:50.756 --> 0:07:54.436 a genius. I really love the fly on the wall 0:07:54.476 --> 0:07:58.316 perspective because when I think about how I counsel my 0:07:58.396 --> 0:08:01.916 friends or family members, there's a certain objectivity that I 0:08:01.916 --> 0:08:03.916 feel I have in that moment where I can see 0:08:04.196 --> 0:08:07.316 the situation from a distance. The kind of hormonal fog 0:08:07.396 --> 0:08:10.236 is removed, all of those heated emotions are removed from 0:08:10.436 --> 0:08:14.276 whatever advice I'm giving, And it feels so useful when 0:08:14.316 --> 0:08:17.396 you're diagnosing your own problems to have that objectivity right, 0:08:17.436 --> 0:08:18.836 to be able to look at it as more of 0:08:18.876 --> 0:08:20.956 an impartial observer the distance. 0:08:20.996 --> 0:08:22.596 Self talk is one way to do that, but even 0:08:22.636 --> 0:08:25.076 finds you can also do that like literally taking the 0:08:25.116 --> 0:08:28.476 perspective of a distanced observer. You know what would Beyonce do? 0:08:28.676 --> 0:08:31.196 Sort of strategy where you just say, you know, oh 0:08:31.236 --> 0:08:33.836 my gosh, I said that thing, like that's so terrible. Well, 0:08:34.116 --> 0:08:36.556 what would Beyonce do? Imagine not Beyonce? How would I 0:08:36.556 --> 0:08:38.596 react to having said that? Like, I wouldn't care. I'd 0:08:38.596 --> 0:08:41.916 be Beyonce right, Which sounds silly, but the evidence really 0:08:41.916 --> 0:08:45.316 shows that, like taking this third person perspective, like pretending 0:08:45.356 --> 0:08:47.516 that you're somebody else, and especially somebody else who has 0:08:47.556 --> 0:08:50.676 exactly the skills to deal with whatever situation you're facing, 0:08:51.076 --> 0:08:53.836 all of a sudden, like you wind up performing much better, 0:08:53.996 --> 0:08:55.916 being less anxious, and you can just kind of shut 0:08:55.956 --> 0:08:57.516 up the chatter because you kind of take on this 0:08:57.556 --> 0:09:00.636 other perspective. My favorite part of it what would Beyonce do? 0:09:01.116 --> 0:09:03.836 Is it turns out Beyonce herself uses a strategy I 0:09:03.836 --> 0:09:06.916 guess whenever she's like feeling nervous before shows, she has 0:09:06.956 --> 0:09:09.556 this persona that she calls Sasha Fears where she's like, 0:09:09.556 --> 0:09:11.836 I'm gonna harness Sasha Fierce, and then she pretends she's 0:09:11.876 --> 0:09:13.836 Sasha Fierce and she just like goes out there and 0:09:13.916 --> 0:09:16.796 you know, does her Beyonce thing. So what would Beyonce do? 0:09:16.836 --> 0:09:19.436 Beyonce would use this form of distant self talk where 0:09:19.476 --> 0:09:21.876 you pretend that you're somebody cooler and wiser. 0:09:22.116 --> 0:09:24.596 I mean to imagine someone cooler than Beyonce. But fine, 0:09:24.676 --> 0:09:28.436 I guess she needs a different reference point. I'm curious 0:09:28.476 --> 0:09:30.396 to know what you think the mechanism is at play. 0:09:30.436 --> 0:09:34.396 Do you think it's because we are better at giving 0:09:34.476 --> 0:09:37.196 other people advice than we are ourselves, or do you 0:09:37.196 --> 0:09:40.636 think it's that we're better at following other people's advice. 0:09:40.836 --> 0:09:42.916 Yeah, my guess is that it's a combination of the two. 0:09:42.996 --> 0:09:46.596 Right when we start using second person pronouns like you know, hey, 0:09:46.636 --> 0:09:48.436 you need to do a little bit better. I know 0:09:48.516 --> 0:09:50.436 that you know this has been hard, but you da 0:09:50.516 --> 0:09:52.916 da da da, Like I think we we rarely do 0:09:52.996 --> 0:09:55.156 that in like a mean way, like you suck and 0:09:55.196 --> 0:09:57.236 you're terrible, right, Like, that's just kind of not what 0:09:57.276 --> 0:09:59.516 most of us normally do. So when we apply that 0:09:59.556 --> 0:10:02.316 pronoun you to ourselves, I think it naturally makes us 0:10:02.316 --> 0:10:04.196 a little bit nicer. So it means the advice we're 0:10:04.236 --> 0:10:08.196 giving ourselves feels nicer. But I think hearing that self 0:10:08.236 --> 0:10:11.156 talk involving you and third person like you, Laura, you know, 0:10:11.196 --> 0:10:13.316 here's what you can do, all of a sudden, it 0:10:13.356 --> 0:10:15.396 gets us out of that like mental chatter frame where 0:10:15.396 --> 0:10:17.796 we're just talking to ourself and it kind of feels 0:10:17.836 --> 0:10:19.756 like we're hearing advice from somebody else. I think we 0:10:19.836 --> 0:10:23.316 both give advice differently, but we're more like we resonate 0:10:23.316 --> 0:10:25.196 with that advice differently too, We kind of hear it 0:10:25.196 --> 0:10:27.516 in a different way, so it's like both parts wind 0:10:27.596 --> 0:10:29.396 up making us feel better and perform better. 0:10:29.596 --> 0:10:32.236 One of my favorite strategies that I use when I 0:10:32.276 --> 0:10:35.836 am in the throes of mental chatter is temporal distancing. 0:10:36.036 --> 0:10:37.476 Can you share a bit more about what that is? 0:10:37.676 --> 0:10:40.116 Yeah, So That is a strategy where you pretend that 0:10:40.156 --> 0:10:43.396 you yourself are in the future thinking about whatever ye 0:10:43.396 --> 0:10:46.356 it is that you're ruminating about right now. Then I'll think, Okay, 0:10:46.516 --> 0:10:48.556 how is ten years from now Lari going to think 0:10:48.556 --> 0:10:51.196 about that? And I'm like, oh, she's not going to 0:10:51.236 --> 0:10:53.396 care about that at all? Right, Like my emotions kind 0:10:53.396 --> 0:10:55.076 of go down because it doesn't feel like it's that 0:10:55.156 --> 0:10:57.716 scary anymore. But also, ten years from now, Luria is 0:10:57.716 --> 0:10:59.716 going to think about that incident in a totally different way. 0:10:59.796 --> 0:11:02.716 She's going to say, oh, I learned something from that. 0:11:02.916 --> 0:11:06.076 And so this is this strategy of temporal distancing. You 0:11:06.156 --> 0:11:08.796 think about yourself in the future, how they would think 0:11:08.796 --> 0:11:11.596 about that this incident, And usually when they think about it, 0:11:11.636 --> 0:11:13.356 they're in a different mode than you are. They're not 0:11:13.396 --> 0:11:16.596 like feeling all anxious and ruminative about something. They're thinking 0:11:16.676 --> 0:11:19.916 from the perspective of this wise future observer who wants 0:11:19.956 --> 0:11:22.036 to go through hard things, who wants to grow from them, 0:11:22.036 --> 0:11:24.356 who's thinking more in terms of what they're going to 0:11:24.396 --> 0:11:26.236 learn rather than how it feels right now. 0:11:26.436 --> 0:11:29.556 So there have been a few times where temporal distancing 0:11:29.916 --> 0:11:32.316 has failed for me, and those are in moments where 0:11:32.716 --> 0:11:36.596 I'm sitting there ruminating, and I imagine five years from now, Maya, 0:11:36.796 --> 0:11:38.716 ten years from now Maya, and I think to myself, 0:11:38.756 --> 0:11:40.516 I'm going to be worried about the same damn thing 0:11:40.716 --> 0:11:43.156 even then. So for those of you who are listening 0:11:43.236 --> 0:11:46.436 who feel like they're very neurotic in this way, you're 0:11:46.476 --> 0:11:49.636 not alone. I'm with you, and so I want to 0:11:49.676 --> 0:11:51.556 share what I do in those moments. So what I 0:11:51.596 --> 0:11:54.396 do is I think back to my past and I 0:11:54.476 --> 0:11:57.796 try to think about some topic that sees my brain 0:11:57.916 --> 0:12:01.476 that I was absolutely convinced was going to plague me forever, 0:12:02.156 --> 0:12:04.756 and then to look at my present self and to say, huh, 0:12:04.836 --> 0:12:07.476 you're not actually worried about that issue that you thought 0:12:07.476 --> 0:12:11.636 in college was the biggest ever. And so sometimes collecting 0:12:12.036 --> 0:12:14.796 personal evidence from your own life that you were just wrong, 0:12:15.076 --> 0:12:18.076 you misfecasted the impact that a particular topic was going 0:12:18.116 --> 0:12:20.556 to have on you, can give you the confidence that 0:12:20.596 --> 0:12:23.596 the current thing will actually resolve in your brain over 0:12:23.636 --> 0:12:24.796 the next five or ten years. 0:12:25.036 --> 0:12:27.036 I love that because I do sometimes with that kind 0:12:27.036 --> 0:12:29.796 of temporal distancing strategy, like I feel like sometimes I'm 0:12:29.836 --> 0:12:31.636 so caught up in the moment with my chatter that 0:12:31.676 --> 0:12:33.756 I'm like, oh, yeah, ten years from now, Laura, she's 0:12:33.796 --> 0:12:36.236 going to be just as freaked out about this tiny thing. 0:12:36.476 --> 0:12:38.196 But then when you look back, you're like, oh, yeah, 0:12:38.236 --> 0:12:40.156 I guess I was wrong about those other ones, so 0:12:40.236 --> 0:12:41.556 maybe I'm wrong about this one too. 0:12:41.756 --> 0:12:43.876 So Laurie, what are other strategies that we can use 0:12:43.916 --> 0:12:45.756 to distance ourselves from that chatter? 0:12:45.876 --> 0:12:48.156 Well, other strategies come from somebody else we've had on 0:12:48.196 --> 0:12:50.716 the Happiness Lab, Krista Naff, who really talks about how 0:12:50.756 --> 0:12:52.916 we need to shut up the critical side of our 0:12:52.956 --> 0:12:55.516 self talk voice. And this is something that I think 0:12:55.596 --> 0:12:57.596 I've seen in my students so much, right, Like, I 0:12:57.636 --> 0:13:00.676 think my students just are so hyper ambitious. They talk 0:13:00.716 --> 0:13:03.756 to themselves in like such harsh ways. And I think 0:13:03.756 --> 0:13:06.076 they do that not because they're massochists, because they think 0:13:06.116 --> 0:13:08.596 it works, right. They just have this assumption that this 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:11.036 really critic voices what's going to kind of get me 0:13:11.116 --> 0:13:13.036 off my butt and I'll actually do stuff and get 0:13:13.076 --> 0:13:15.476 motivated to do, you know, and achieve whatever goals I 0:13:15.516 --> 0:13:18.116 had in the first place. But a lot of kristin 0:13:18.156 --> 0:13:21.116 Neff's evidence suggests that that's absolutely not true. Self critical 0:13:21.156 --> 0:13:24.036 voice winds up causing you to procrastinate and it feels 0:13:24.116 --> 0:13:26.076 really terrible and you just don't get done what you 0:13:26.116 --> 0:13:28.076 need to get done. And she's found that there's a 0:13:28.116 --> 0:13:32.476 powerful alternative to this, which she refers to as self compassion. Again, 0:13:32.516 --> 0:13:34.716 you're kind of marshaling the compassion that you'd give to 0:13:34.796 --> 0:13:37.996 somebody else for yourself. You kind of give yourself the 0:13:38.036 --> 0:13:40.876 same kindness that you would an outside observer, but just 0:13:40.916 --> 0:13:42.716 to kind of make it concrete. She talks about self 0:13:42.716 --> 0:13:45.036 compassion as having these three parts. The first part is 0:13:45.116 --> 0:13:48.516 kind of mindfulness. You need to recognize this sucks right now. 0:13:48.596 --> 0:13:50.676 I'm having hard time right now, I have failed and 0:13:50.716 --> 0:13:54.836 I feel ashamed. So you're mindful about your feelings, the situation, 0:13:55.116 --> 0:13:57.116 how bad it is. You're kind of like calling like 0:13:57.156 --> 0:13:59.476 the emotional spade a spade, like this sucks right now. 0:13:59.516 --> 0:14:01.956 The second part is what she calls calmon humanity, which 0:14:01.956 --> 0:14:05.596 I think is super powerful. It's basically saying it's normal. 0:14:05.716 --> 0:14:07.516 I'm human, I'm going to screw up, I'm going to 0:14:07.556 --> 0:14:09.956 go through shame, I'm going to feel luck sometimes like 0:14:10.036 --> 0:14:12.956 this is normative, right, It is common humanity to experience 0:14:12.996 --> 0:14:16.116 these emotions that I'm experiencing. And then the third step 0:14:16.156 --> 0:14:18.316 is the self kindness part, kind of using the same 0:14:18.356 --> 0:14:20.356 strategies we were just talking about with Ethan, where you 0:14:20.396 --> 0:14:22.796 talk to yourself ideally using the sort of second and 0:14:22.836 --> 0:14:25.396 third person and say, Lauri, what can you take off 0:14:25.396 --> 0:14:27.436 your plate? Lauri, how can you be kind to yourself 0:14:27.516 --> 0:14:30.476 right now? And she finds this self compassion is this 0:14:30.596 --> 0:14:33.796 like super powerful strategy where it can do things like 0:14:33.916 --> 0:14:36.036 not just improve your performance and make you feel better, 0:14:36.276 --> 0:14:40.076 but also like reduce trauma when individuals are in combat situations. 0:14:40.436 --> 0:14:42.756 It can increase the compassion that you give to your 0:14:42.836 --> 0:14:45.676 team members and your partner. Right, so do you engage 0:14:45.676 --> 0:14:48.916 in self compassion? It boosts your other people compassion too, 0:14:49.596 --> 0:14:52.396 And it just like has this enormous effect on people's 0:14:52.396 --> 0:14:56.196 performance where you find that people stop procrastinating, they stop 0:14:56.196 --> 0:14:57.916 being afraid of the kind of tasks that they have 0:14:57.956 --> 0:14:59.756 ahead of them, they can just kind of embrace them 0:14:59.796 --> 0:15:00.556 with excitement. 0:15:00.956 --> 0:15:03.876 Yeah. I had so many misconceptions about the self compassion 0:15:03.996 --> 0:15:05.396 literature until I dug. 0:15:05.316 --> 0:15:07.796 In totally because it has really crappy brandis right, It 0:15:07.836 --> 0:15:11.036 sounds like very woo like self compassion. It doesn't sound 0:15:11.076 --> 0:15:15.316 like human performance maximization, but that's like ultimately what it is. 0:15:15.436 --> 0:15:17.996 Yeah, I mean, the minute I learned wait, self compassion 0:15:17.996 --> 0:15:20.356 can actually improve performance, I mean, then it just becomes 0:15:20.356 --> 0:15:22.676 a no brainer. It no longer feels like this soft 0:15:22.796 --> 0:15:26.676 woo woo narrative instead one that feels very productive and 0:15:26.716 --> 0:15:29.756 functional and ends up making you feel better, which matters too. 0:15:30.076 --> 0:15:31.716 Yeah, And I think one thing we get wrong when 0:15:31.716 --> 0:15:34.236 we hear self compassion, And this is definitely something I've 0:15:34.236 --> 0:15:36.876 seen when I teach the strategy to my students is 0:15:36.916 --> 0:15:39.476 that they hear it as self indulgence. They think, like, 0:15:39.516 --> 0:15:41.316 if you're being kind to yourself, you're going to like 0:15:41.396 --> 0:15:43.956 let yourself off the hook or kind of not call 0:15:43.996 --> 0:15:46.596 yourself out when you are acting problematically, like when things 0:15:46.636 --> 0:15:48.676 are kind of a real problem. And I think that's 0:15:48.716 --> 0:15:50.996 why this idea of talking to yourself like you would 0:15:50.996 --> 0:15:53.996 a friend is so powerful. Like Maya, you're my friend 0:15:54.036 --> 0:15:55.876 and former student. If you were doing something that was 0:15:55.916 --> 0:15:58.556 really terrible, I would give you a talking to, but 0:15:58.596 --> 0:16:00.396 I wouldn't do it in a mean way and say, ma, 0:16:00.636 --> 0:16:03.116 you suck whatever. I would say like, Maya, what is 0:16:03.156 --> 0:16:05.596 going on? Like I just want to know how I 0:16:05.636 --> 0:16:08.276 can help? What can I do right? And so in 0:16:08.316 --> 0:16:11.076 some ways, this self compassion isn't self indulgence, it's not 0:16:11.196 --> 0:16:13.876 kind of letting yourself off the hook. If anything, it's 0:16:13.956 --> 0:16:16.756 what Kristin f calls fierce, right, Like you are ready 0:16:16.796 --> 0:16:19.276 to dive in even for tough problems and not avoid 0:16:19.316 --> 0:16:21.716 them because you care about yourself that much. Right. That's 0:16:21.716 --> 0:16:23.476 this kind of analogy with a friend. If a good 0:16:23.476 --> 0:16:25.956 friend's going through something tough and they're not behaving in 0:16:25.996 --> 0:16:28.156 the right way, you're going to check in. But you're 0:16:28.156 --> 0:16:29.756 not going to check in in this kind of mean, 0:16:29.836 --> 0:16:32.596 drill sergeant way. You're going to check in with kindness 0:16:32.636 --> 0:16:35.956 and curiosity and like understanding, right, And that's just kind 0:16:35.996 --> 0:16:37.716 of what we need to apply to ourselves too. 0:16:38.196 --> 0:16:41.836 Yeah, and that drill sergeant approach can really backfire. 0:16:41.916 --> 0:16:42.276 I remember. 0:16:42.316 --> 0:16:44.916 One of the freshest insights that I learned from Kristin 0:16:45.156 --> 0:16:48.556 is that when you are crippled by shame, right, when 0:16:48.556 --> 0:16:50.396 you feel that the thing you did is not just bad, 0:16:50.556 --> 0:16:53.596 that you're bad, it actually closes you off to the 0:16:53.636 --> 0:16:56.756 idea of improvement because if you're bad, you're irredeemable. There's 0:16:56.756 --> 0:17:00.076 no chance at making progress or ameliorating the situation. So 0:17:00.196 --> 0:17:04.556 actually self compassion is the instrument by which we can 0:17:04.716 --> 0:17:07.716 unlock growth and do better. So it's the opposite of 0:17:07.756 --> 0:17:10.076 letting ourselves off the hooktually, the thing that allows our 0:17:10.076 --> 0:17:12.636 brains to be open minded enough to think that there 0:17:12.756 --> 0:17:15.996 is redemption or at least a path to progress. 0:17:15.796 --> 0:17:18.276 Exactly, Maya. I love that you've brought up like the 0:17:18.316 --> 0:17:19.956 self talk and how we can use it better. I 0:17:19.956 --> 0:17:22.276 wish that was a chapter in the World Happiness Report. 0:17:22.356 --> 0:17:25.396 I think it's super important. Thank you so much for 0:17:25.436 --> 0:17:26.516 coming on the Happiness Lab. 0:17:26.596 --> 0:17:28.276 Thank you so much for having me, Laurie. 0:17:28.916 --> 0:17:31.716 A little later we'll be talking to Malcolm Gladwell about 0:17:31.716 --> 0:17:34.036 the joy or lack of it, he gets from running. 0:17:34.476 --> 0:17:37.796 But next up, the economist and Pushkin podcaster Tim Harford 0:17:38.036 --> 0:17:41.396 discusses the famous happiness experiment that echoes in his own 0:17:41.436 --> 0:17:42.236 medical history. 0:17:42.556 --> 0:17:45.236 I have to have colorsco is quite often we don't 0:17:45.236 --> 0:17:47.116 want to go into too many details, but it's a 0:17:47.156 --> 0:17:47.956 whole journey. 0:17:48.516 --> 0:17:56.156 All that after a quick break. If you look back 0:17:56.156 --> 0:17:58.956 through previous World Happiness Reports, you'll see that a lot 0:17:58.956 --> 0:18:01.636 of effort has been put into investigating why some people 0:18:01.676 --> 0:18:04.716 are happier than others, and indeed why some nations seem 0:18:04.716 --> 0:18:08.316 happier than their neighbors, but even in our own individual lives, 0:18:08.396 --> 0:18:11.076 our happiness tends to ebb and flow. We can be 0:18:11.116 --> 0:18:13.956