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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello, and if you're listening to this on March twentieth,

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Speaker 1: Happy World Happiness Day. On the Happiness Lab, we suggest

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Speaker 1: you do something to improve your well being every day

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Speaker 1: of the year, but if the United Nations wants us

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Speaker 1: all to make a special effort for twenty four hours

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Speaker 1: in March, then we're on board with that too. The

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Speaker 1: first International Day of Happiness was celebrated back in twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 1: The goal was to raise awareness that our well being

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Speaker 1: can be approved if only more governments enacted policies to

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Speaker 1: help us all become a little happier. On each International

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Speaker 1: Day of Happiness, the United Nations also issues the World

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Speaker 1: Happiness Report, written by scientists and academics. This report examines

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Speaker 1: different themes, showing what we're getting right when it comes

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Speaker 1: to happiness and what we still need to work on.

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Speaker 1: Past reports have looked at happiness and parenting, what living

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Speaker 1: in cities does for our happiness, and more recently, the

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Speaker 1: impact that COVID nineteen has had on our well being.

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Speaker 1: Over the next few episodes of the Happiness Lab, we'll

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Speaker 1: be talking to the experts behind this year's World Happiness Report.

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Speaker 1: They're among the best and brightest in the field of

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Speaker 1: happiness science. So these are going to be some fantastic episodes,

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Speaker 1: But for the show today, we're doing something a little different.

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Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is made by Pushkin Industries, and many

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Speaker 1: of the network's other hosts have some pretty interesting takes

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Speaker 1: on what can make us all happier, so I decided

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Speaker 1: to talk to them about what they would have put

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Speaker 1: in this year's World Happiness Report. A little later, you'll

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Speaker 1: hear from revisionist Histories Malcolm Gladwell.

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Speaker 2: I'm perfectly happy to suffer, but I will not suffer

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Speaker 2: for six hours.

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Speaker 1: And from Tim Hartford from cautionary.

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Speaker 3: Tales, the surgeon would leave the probe in, so to speak,

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Speaker 3: without wiggling it around.

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Speaker 1: But we'll kick it off with an old, old friend

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Speaker 1: of mine.

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Speaker 4: It's worth sharing with folks that I've actually known you

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Speaker 4: since I was seventeen years old. I was a student

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Speaker 4: of yours.

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Speaker 1: I was full eight years now.

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Speaker 4: Now it feels like it's been so how much longer?

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Speaker 1: This is Maya Schunker. I taught her back when she

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Speaker 1: was an undergraduate at Yale, and we kept in touch

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Speaker 1: after she graduated and went to work at the White House,

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Speaker 1: where she advised the Obama administration on how behavioral science

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Speaker 1: can improve government policy. These days, Maya hosts The Pushkin Show,

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Speaker 1: a slight Change of Plans, a podcast about who we

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Speaker 1: become when we face big challenges and decisions. Given all that,

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Speaker 1: she was perhaps the perfect person to ask my question,

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Speaker 1: if you were writing a chapter of the World Happiness Report,

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Speaker 1: what would it be about?

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Speaker 4: Okay, Well, this one's really easy for me because I

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Speaker 4: think there is one thing that erodes my happiness more

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Speaker 4: than anything else, and it's what our psychologist's friend, Ethan

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Speaker 4: Cross calls mental chatter.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so Ethan Cross, he's a professor at the

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Speaker 1: University of Michigan and he's the author of this wonderful

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Speaker 1: book Chatter. Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 4: And it was really helpful for me when I learned

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Speaker 4: about this concept because I was like, wow, Ethan, you've

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Speaker 4: just captured what's been in my brain for decades. So, Laurie,

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Speaker 4: can you tell us more about what mental chatter is

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Speaker 4: and how does that relate to the inner dialogue that

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Speaker 4: we have in our minds all the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let me start with the inner dialogue, because

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Speaker 1: in some ways it's a really cool thing that we

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Speaker 1: do as humans. So inner dialogue, just as it sounds,

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Speaker 1: is like the self talk that you have going on

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Speaker 1: in your head, and it could be about all kinds

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Speaker 1: of things. Right, Our inner dialogue is how we like

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Speaker 1: make sense of the world and build our own inner narrative.

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Speaker 1: Our inner dialogue is how we like plan for what

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Speaker 1: we're going to do after this. You know, when I

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Speaker 1: was waiting for you to hop on zoom, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: after this, I'm gonna make dinner. And what do I

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Speaker 1: have in my fridge? And I oh, I have some

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Speaker 1: black beans? Like all of that is inner dialogue, right,

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Speaker 1: But chatter, as Ethan defines, it, is a little bit different.

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Speaker 1: It's when our inner dialogue goes to the negative. Right,

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Speaker 1: So it's that inner voice of worry where you're thinking

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Speaker 1: about the future and feeling anxious about what's to come,

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Speaker 1: or that inner voice of rumination where you're thinking about

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Speaker 1: the past and beating yourself up for something that you

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Speaker 1: did do or that you didn't do, or even just

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Speaker 1: like our inner voice of self criticism where we just

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Speaker 1: kind of talk crap about ourselves like all the time,

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Speaker 1: no matter what's going on. And so while our inner

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Speaker 1: dialogue itself can be really adaptive, mental chatter is not.

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Speaker 1: It kind of feels like crap, And then there's lots

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Speaker 1: of evidence that it affects our performance negatively too.

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Speaker 4: I remember so when I had a conversation with Ethan

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Speaker 4: on a slight change of plans, it was so helpful

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Speaker 4: for me to even hear this distinction, the distinction between

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Speaker 4: the inner voice and dialogue and mental chatter, because I

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Speaker 4: think what happens is in the throes of chatter, you

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Speaker 4: are so pissed off at your brain. You're like, can

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Speaker 4: you please stop? You've been ruminating over this thing for

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Speaker 4: you three hours. You're not making any progress at all,

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Speaker 4: and you can really start to resent your brain and

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Speaker 4: resent the fact that it even has this faculty. And

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Speaker 4: so when Ethan and I did more of this gratitude

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Speaker 4: moment together where we appreciated our inner voice and to

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Speaker 4: exactly your point, focused on all the benefits that that

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Speaker 4: voice affords us in any given day, that alone helped

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Speaker 4: me have a different relationship with my mental chatter, because

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Speaker 4: at the end of the I thought, well, I wouldn't

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Speaker 4: want to do away with my inner voice altogether. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's actually miraculous that I can travel in time to

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Speaker 4: the future or the past in general. I mean, I

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Speaker 4: might not like it in this moment because I'm perseparating

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Speaker 4: about something even happened two weeks ago that I can

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Speaker 4: no longer change. But in general, it's such a cool

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Speaker 4: feature of our cognition, of human cognition, that we have

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Speaker 4: the ability to have these internal conversations with ourselves.

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Speaker 1: And I think the beauty is that once you understand

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Speaker 1: what chatter is, you can also find strategies for controlling

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Speaker 1: it when it goes to the not so great side, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's the lovely thing about Ethan's work, because he

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Speaker 1: has all these different strategies that we can use to

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Speaker 1: like not shut our chatter up, but to use self

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Speaker 1: talk to be a little bit more productive and a

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Speaker 1: little bit kinder to ourselves.

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Speaker 4: So let's talk about some of those strategies for those

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Speaker 4: who are in the horrible loop of mental rumination. I

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Speaker 4: want to give folks hope and help them see that

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Speaker 4: there is light at the end of the tunnel.

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Speaker 1: Well, one of Ethan's best strategies that I love because

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Speaker 1: it's like so super simple, and in fact, there's lots

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Speaker 1: of evidence that when you use this strategy, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: take any cognitive work. It happens super fast. And that

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Speaker 1: strategy is what he calls distance self talk, which is

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Speaker 1: just the simple act of using your name and talking

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Speaker 1: to yourself in the third person. So normally, if I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about my own like mental chatter, I'll be using

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Speaker 1: the first person. I'll be like, oh, why did I

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Speaker 1: do that? I said that stupid thing, like I should

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Speaker 1: have thought more. But it's I I me, me, me me, right,

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Speaker 1: that's a first person perspective, and that's what we often

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Speaker 1: use when we get like all worrying and ruminative, because

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Speaker 1: it's all about us. But distance self talk lets you

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Speaker 1: get a little bit of psychological distance because instead of

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Speaker 1: talking like that, you say, you know, maybe you messed

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Speaker 1: up a little bit, Laurie, like, maybe this is something

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Speaker 1: that you need to think about in the future. Right,

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Speaker 1: So I'm using the second person you, I'm using the

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Speaker 1: third person, like my name. And that is really powerful

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Speaker 1: because the only time in your life you ever hear

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Speaker 1: the second person you or your name is when somebody

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Speaker 1: else is talking to you. And so it's this little

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Speaker 1: cool linguistic device that makes us feel like we're hearing

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Speaker 1: from some wise mentor we're hearing from some other person,

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Speaker 1: somebody who is distance from that loop of chatter that

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Speaker 1: we have going on. And Ethan's found that this simple

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Speaker 1: act of doing that you don't even have to instruct

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Speaker 1: subjects to like talk differently to themselves. Just the act

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Speaker 1: of switching the pronouns that you use in your brain

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Speaker 1: winds up making you a little bit kinder to yourself.

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Speaker 1: Has all these wonderful emotional consequences where you're a little

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Speaker 1: bit anxious over time, and it just lets you kind

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Speaker 1: of get out of that loop so that you can

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Speaker 1: perform better. And what's cool is like it doesn't take

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Speaker 1: any work. It's just a matter of changing the pronouns.

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Speaker 1: It's not like developing some complicated like cognitive behavior therapy strategy.

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Speaker 1: It's just like you switch the pronouns and immediately you

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Speaker 1: get this interesting distance from your normal chatter.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I remember reading in Ethan's book that Malala did this.

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Speaker 4: Of course, Malala the most sophisticated psychologist of all time

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Speaker 4: despite never having studied it, because she's such a such

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Speaker 4: a genius. I really love the fly on the wall

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Speaker 4: perspective because when I think about how I counsel my

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Speaker 4: friends or family members, there's a certain objectivity that I

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Speaker 4: feel I have in that moment where I can see

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Speaker 4: the situation from a distance. The kind of hormonal fog

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Speaker 4: is removed, all of those heated emotions are removed from

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Speaker 4: whatever advice I'm giving, And it feels so useful when

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Speaker 4: you're diagnosing your own problems to have that objectivity right,

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Speaker 4: to be able to look at it as more of

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Speaker 4: an impartial observer the distance.

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Speaker 1: Self talk is one way to do that, but even

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Speaker 1: finds you can also do that like literally taking the

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Speaker 1: perspective of a distanced observer. You know what would Beyonce do?

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Speaker 1: Sort of strategy where you just say, you know, oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, I said that thing, like that's so terrible. Well,

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Speaker 1: what would Beyonce do? Imagine not Beyonce? How would I

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Speaker 1: react to having said that? Like, I wouldn't care. I'd

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Speaker 1: be Beyonce right, Which sounds silly, but the evidence really

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Speaker 1: shows that, like taking this third person perspective, like pretending

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Speaker 1: that you're somebody else, and especially somebody else who has

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Speaker 1: exactly the skills to deal with whatever situation you're facing,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, like you wind up performing much better,

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Speaker 1: being less anxious, and you can just kind of shut

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Speaker 1: up the chatter because you kind of take on this

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Speaker 1: other perspective. My favorite part of it what would Beyonce do?

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Speaker 1: Is it turns out Beyonce herself uses a strategy I

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Speaker 1: guess whenever she's like feeling nervous before shows, she has

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Speaker 1: this persona that she calls Sasha Fears where she's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna harness Sasha Fierce, and then she pretends she's

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Speaker 1: Sasha Fierce and she just like goes out there and

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Speaker 1: you know, does her Beyonce thing. So what would Beyonce do?

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Speaker 1: Beyonce would use this form of distant self talk where

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Speaker 1: you pretend that you're somebody cooler and wiser.

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Speaker 4: I mean to imagine someone cooler than Beyonce. But fine,

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Speaker 4: I guess she needs a different reference point. I'm curious

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Speaker 4: to know what you think the mechanism is at play.

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Speaker 4: Do you think it's because we are better at giving

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Speaker 4: other people advice than we are ourselves, or do you

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Speaker 4: think it's that we're better at following other people's advice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my guess is that it's a combination of the two.

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Speaker 1: Right when we start using second person pronouns like you know, hey,

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Speaker 1: you need to do a little bit better. I know

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Speaker 1: that you know this has been hard, but you da

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Speaker 1: da da da, Like I think we we rarely do

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Speaker 1: that in like a mean way, like you suck and

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Speaker 1: you're terrible, right, Like, that's just kind of not what

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Speaker 1: most of us normally do. So when we apply that

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Speaker 1: pronoun you to ourselves, I think it naturally makes us

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Speaker 1: a little bit nicer. So it means the advice we're

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Speaker 1: giving ourselves feels nicer. But I think hearing that self

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Speaker 1: talk involving you and third person like you, Laura, you know,

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Speaker 1: here's what you can do, all of a sudden, it

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Speaker 1: gets us out of that like mental chatter frame where

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Speaker 1: we're just talking to ourself and it kind of feels

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Speaker 1: like we're hearing advice from somebody else. I think we

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Speaker 1: both give advice differently, but we're more like we resonate

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Speaker 1: with that advice differently too, We kind of hear it

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Speaker 1: in a different way, so it's like both parts wind

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Speaker 1: up making us feel better and perform better.

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Speaker 4: One of my favorite strategies that I use when I

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Speaker 4: am in the throes of mental chatter is temporal distancing.

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Speaker 4: Can you share a bit more about what that is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So That is a strategy where you pretend that

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Speaker 1: you yourself are in the future thinking about whatever ye

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Speaker 1: it is that you're ruminating about right now. Then I'll think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: how is ten years from now Lari going to think

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Speaker 1: about that? And I'm like, oh, she's not going to

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Speaker 1: care about that at all? Right, Like my emotions kind

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Speaker 1: of go down because it doesn't feel like it's that

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Speaker 1: scary anymore. But also, ten years from now, Luria is

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Speaker 1: going to think about that incident in a totally different way.

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Speaker 1: She's going to say, oh, I learned something from that.

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Speaker 1: And so this is this strategy of temporal distancing. You

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Speaker 1: think about yourself in the future, how they would think

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Speaker 1: about that this incident, And usually when they think about it,

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Speaker 1: they're in a different mode than you are. They're not

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Speaker 1: like feeling all anxious and ruminative about something. They're thinking

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Speaker 1: from the perspective of this wise future observer who wants

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Speaker 1: to go through hard things, who wants to grow from them,

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Speaker 1: who's thinking more in terms of what they're going to

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Speaker 1: learn rather than how it feels right now.

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Speaker 4: So there have been a few times where temporal distancing

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Speaker 4: has failed for me, and those are in moments where

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Speaker 4: I'm sitting there ruminating, and I imagine five years from now, Maya,

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Speaker 4: ten years from now Maya, and I think to myself,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to be worried about the same damn thing

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Speaker 4: even then. So for those of you who are listening

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Speaker 4: who feel like they're very neurotic in this way, you're

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Speaker 4: not alone. I'm with you, and so I want to

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Speaker 4: share what I do in those moments. So what I

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Speaker 4: do is I think back to my past and I

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Speaker 4: try to think about some topic that sees my brain

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Speaker 4: that I was absolutely convinced was going to plague me forever,

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Speaker 4: and then to look at my present self and to say, huh,

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Speaker 4: you're not actually worried about that issue that you thought

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Speaker 4: in college was the biggest ever. And so sometimes collecting

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Speaker 4: personal evidence from your own life that you were just wrong,

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Speaker 4: you misfecasted the impact that a particular topic was going

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Speaker 4: to have on you, can give you the confidence that

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Speaker 4: the current thing will actually resolve in your brain over

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Speaker 4: the next five or ten years.

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Speaker 1: I love that because I do sometimes with that kind

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Speaker 1: of temporal distancing strategy, like I feel like sometimes I'm

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Speaker 1: so caught up in the moment with my chatter that

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, ten years from now, Laura, she's

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Speaker 1: going to be just as freaked out about this tiny thing.

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Speaker 1: But then when you look back, you're like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess I was wrong about those other ones, so

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm wrong about this one too.

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Speaker 4: So Laurie, what are other strategies that we can use

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Speaker 4: to distance ourselves from that chatter?

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Speaker 1: Well, other strategies come from somebody else we've had on

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Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab, Krista Naff, who really talks about how

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Speaker 1: we need to shut up the critical side of our

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Speaker 1: self talk voice. And this is something that I think

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Speaker 1: I've seen in my students so much, right, Like, I

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Speaker 1: think my students just are so hyper ambitious. They talk

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Speaker 1: to themselves in like such harsh ways. And I think

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Speaker 1: they do that not because they're massochists, because they think

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Speaker 1: it works, right. They just have this assumption that this

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Speaker 1: really critic voices what's going to kind of get me

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Speaker 1: off my butt and I'll actually do stuff and get

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Speaker 1: motivated to do, you know, and achieve whatever goals I

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Speaker 1: had in the first place. But a lot of kristin

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Speaker 1: Neff's evidence suggests that that's absolutely not true. Self critical

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Speaker 1: voice winds up causing you to procrastinate and it feels

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Speaker 1: really terrible and you just don't get done what you

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Speaker 1: need to get done. And she's found that there's a

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Speaker 1: powerful alternative to this, which she refers to as self compassion. Again,

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Speaker 1: you're kind of marshaling the compassion that you'd give to

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Speaker 1: somebody else for yourself. You kind of give yourself the

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Speaker 1: same kindness that you would an outside observer, but just

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Speaker 1: to kind of make it concrete. She talks about self

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Speaker 1: compassion as having these three parts. The first part is

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Speaker 1: kind of mindfulness. You need to recognize this sucks right now.

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Speaker 1: I'm having hard time right now, I have failed and

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Speaker 1: I feel ashamed. So you're mindful about your feelings, the situation,

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Speaker 1: how bad it is. You're kind of like calling like

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Speaker 1: the emotional spade a spade, like this sucks right now.

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Speaker 1: The second part is what she calls calmon humanity, which

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Speaker 1: I think is super powerful. It's basically saying it's normal.

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Speaker 1: I'm human, I'm going to screw up, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go through shame, I'm going to feel luck sometimes like

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Speaker 1: this is normative, right, It is common humanity to experience

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Speaker 1: these emotions that I'm experiencing. And then the third step

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Speaker 1: is the self kindness part, kind of using the same

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Speaker 1: strategies we were just talking about with Ethan, where you

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Speaker 1: talk to yourself ideally using the sort of second and

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Speaker 1: third person and say, Lauri, what can you take off

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Speaker 1: your plate? Lauri, how can you be kind to yourself

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Speaker 1: right now? And she finds this self compassion is this

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Speaker 1: like super powerful strategy where it can do things like

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Speaker 1: not just improve your performance and make you feel better,

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Speaker 1: but also like reduce trauma when individuals are in combat situations.

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Speaker 1: It can increase the compassion that you give to your

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Speaker 1: team members and your partner. Right, so do you engage

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Speaker 1: in self compassion? It boosts your other people compassion too,

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Speaker 1: And it just like has this enormous effect on people's

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Speaker 1: performance where you find that people stop procrastinating, they stop

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Speaker 1: being afraid of the kind of tasks that they have

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Speaker 1: ahead of them, they can just kind of embrace them

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Speaker 1: with excitement.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I had so many misconceptions about the self compassion

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Speaker 4: literature until I dug.

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Speaker 1: In totally because it has really crappy brandis right, It

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Speaker 1: sounds like very woo like self compassion. It doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: like human performance maximization, but that's like ultimately what it is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the minute I learned wait, self compassion

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Speaker 4: can actually improve performance, I mean, then it just becomes

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Speaker 4: a no brainer. It no longer feels like this soft

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Speaker 4: woo woo narrative instead one that feels very productive and

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Speaker 4: functional and ends up making you feel better, which matters too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think one thing we get wrong when

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Speaker 1: we hear self compassion, And this is definitely something I've

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Speaker 1: seen when I teach the strategy to my students is

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Speaker 1: that they hear it as self indulgence. They think, like,

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Speaker 1: if you're being kind to yourself, you're going to like

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Speaker 1: let yourself off the hook or kind of not call

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Speaker 1: yourself out when you are acting problematically, like when things

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Speaker 1: are kind of a real problem. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: why this idea of talking to yourself like you would

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Speaker 1: a friend is so powerful. Like Maya, you're my friend

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Speaker 1: and former student. If you were doing something that was

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Speaker 1: really terrible, I would give you a talking to, but

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it in a mean way and say, ma,

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Speaker 1: you suck whatever. I would say like, Maya, what is

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Speaker 1: going on? Like I just want to know how I

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Speaker 1: can help? What can I do right? And so in

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Speaker 1: some ways, this self compassion isn't self indulgence, it's not

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Speaker 1: kind of letting yourself off the hook. If anything, it's

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Speaker 1: what Kristin f calls fierce, right, Like you are ready

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Speaker 1: to dive in even for tough problems and not avoid

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Speaker 1: them because you care about yourself that much. Right. That's

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Speaker 1: this kind of analogy with a friend. If a good

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Speaker 1: friend's going through something tough and they're not behaving in

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Speaker 1: the right way, you're going to check in. But you're

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Speaker 1: not going to check in in this kind of mean,

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Speaker 1: drill sergeant way. You're going to check in with kindness

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Speaker 1: and curiosity and like understanding, right, And that's just kind

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Speaker 1: of what we need to apply to ourselves too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that drill sergeant approach can really backfire.

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Speaker 1: I remember.

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Speaker 4: One of the freshest insights that I learned from Kristin

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Speaker 4: is that when you are crippled by shame, right, when

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Speaker 4: you feel that the thing you did is not just bad,

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Speaker 4: that you're bad, it actually closes you off to the

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Speaker 4: idea of improvement because if you're bad, you're irredeemable. There's

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Speaker 4: no chance at making progress or ameliorating the situation. So

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Speaker 4: actually self compassion is the instrument by which we can

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Speaker 4: unlock growth and do better. So it's the opposite of

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Speaker 4: letting ourselves off the hooktually, the thing that allows our

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Speaker 4: brains to be open minded enough to think that there

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Speaker 4: is redemption or at least a path to progress.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, Maya. I love that you've brought up like the

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Speaker 1: self talk and how we can use it better. I

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Speaker 1: wish that was a chapter in the World Happiness Report.

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Speaker 1: I think it's super important. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: coming on the Happiness Lab.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me, Laurie.

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Speaker 1: A little later we'll be talking to Malcolm Gladwell about

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Speaker 1: the joy or lack of it, he gets from running.

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Speaker 1: But next up, the economist and Pushkin podcaster Tim Harford

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Speaker 1: discusses the famous happiness experiment that echoes in his own

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Speaker 1: medical history.

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Speaker 3: I have to have colorsco is quite often we don't

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Speaker 3: want to go into too many details, but it's a

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Speaker 3: whole journey.

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Speaker 1: All that after a quick break. If you look back

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Speaker 1: through previous World Happiness Reports, you'll see that a lot

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Speaker 1: of effort has been put into investigating why some people

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Speaker 1: are happier than others, and indeed why some nations seem

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Speaker 1: happier than their neighbors, but even in our own individual lives,

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Speaker 1: our happiness tends to ebb and flow. We can be

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Speaker 1: happy one year and down the next. Over the course

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Speaker 1: of just an hour, we can experience a whole gamut

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Speaker 1: of emotions, both good and bad. But there's an interesting

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Speaker 1: bit of happiness research that shows just how slippery our

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Speaker 1: grip on happiness can be. And that's the topic that

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Speaker 1: was picked up by our next guest on this special show.

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Speaker 3: I am Tim Harft. I am a senior columnist at

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Speaker 3: the Financial Times, and I'm the host of Cautionary Tales,

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Speaker 3: which is a podcast all about the catastrophes of the

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Speaker 3: past and how we can learn from them.

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Speaker 1: Tim admits to being obsessed by the work of Nobel

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Speaker 1: Prize warning psychologist Danny Kanneman, and especially the work that

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Speaker 1: Danny did on how we can remember bad experiences fondly

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Speaker 1: given the right circumstances. In a series of experiments, Danny

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Speaker 1: found that we can go through some pretty harrowing experiences,

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Speaker 1: but with a couple of tweaks about how that ordeal ends,

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Speaker 1: we can look back on even terrible times in a

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Speaker 1: much more positive way than we expect.

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Speaker 3: He emphasizes the difference between remember happiness and experienced happiness,

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Speaker 3: and you would think happiness is just happiness, right, But

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Speaker 3: of course Danny Carman gets to be Danny Carman by

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Speaker 3: drawing these fine distinctions that never occurred to the rest

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Speaker 3: of us. So let me give you an example that

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Speaker 3: he ran an experiment where they've got people to hold

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Speaker 3: their hands in ice water for sixty seconds, and using

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Speaker 3: a kind of computer mouse, they could register how much

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Speaker 3: that was hurting holding your left hand in this cold water.

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Speaker 3: They get a nice warm towel, bit of a break,

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Speaker 3: and then they got them to put their other hand

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Speaker 3: in the water, not for sixty seconds, but for ninety seconds.

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Speaker 3: But for the last thirty seconds the water got slightly warmer,

432
00:19:48,556 --> 00:19:51,996
Speaker 3: I mean not warm, but just a little bit less horrible,

433
00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:54,956
Speaker 3: And then you got your warm towel. But then the

434
00:19:54,956 --> 00:19:57,876
Speaker 3: people participating in this experiment were asked do you want

435
00:19:57,916 --> 00:20:00,236
Speaker 3: to do their left handing again or do you want

436
00:20:00,236 --> 00:20:02,036
Speaker 3: to do the right hand thing again? In other words,

437
00:20:02,076 --> 00:20:05,596
Speaker 3: do you want sixty seconds of pain followed by nice

438
00:20:05,596 --> 00:20:08,476
Speaker 3: warm towels or do you want sixty seconds of pain

439
00:20:09,116 --> 00:20:12,596
Speaker 3: followed by thirty seconds of slightly less painful pain followed

440
00:20:12,596 --> 00:20:16,596
Speaker 3: by nice, warm towels, and people wanted the longer experience.

441
00:20:16,676 --> 00:20:19,476
Speaker 3: They wanted the longer, more uncomfortable experience because they didn't

442
00:20:19,516 --> 00:20:23,836
Speaker 3: remember it as more uncomfortable. What they recalled was, oh, well,

443
00:20:23,836 --> 00:20:25,836
Speaker 3: I put my hand in iced water and it was painful,

444
00:20:26,116 --> 00:20:27,476
Speaker 3: or there was that other time I put my hand

445
00:20:27,516 --> 00:20:29,276
Speaker 3: in iced water and it wasn't as bad. I didn't

446
00:20:29,316 --> 00:20:31,316
Speaker 3: remember it as being as bad. And the reason they

447
00:20:31,316 --> 00:20:32,996
Speaker 3: don't remember it as being as bad is because it

448
00:20:33,036 --> 00:20:37,396
Speaker 3: didn't end as uncomfortably. So in this particular case, Karnaman

449
00:20:37,596 --> 00:20:40,036
Speaker 3: was highlighting, there's a clear irrationality.

450
00:20:40,396 --> 00:20:43,356
Speaker 1: Obviously, it's better to be less time and pain.

451
00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:46,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, less time and pain, like as you're experiencing them,

452
00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:50,476
Speaker 3: the only difference between the two experiences was one of

453
00:20:50,516 --> 00:20:54,316
Speaker 3: them had thirty extra seconds of discomfort. But as you

454
00:20:54,396 --> 00:20:57,076
Speaker 3: remembered them, they're very different. Okay, so what has that

455
00:20:57,156 --> 00:20:58,996
Speaker 3: got to do with happiness? Well, it turns out that

456
00:20:59,196 --> 00:21:01,836
Speaker 3: this distinction between what you're experiencing as you go through

457
00:21:01,836 --> 00:21:04,556
Speaker 3: it and then how you remember it applies to all

458
00:21:04,636 --> 00:21:08,316
Speaker 3: sorts of things in our lives. You might experience a

459
00:21:08,356 --> 00:21:11,556
Speaker 3: happy relationship, but then it ends in a really messy way,

460
00:21:11,916 --> 00:21:13,796
Speaker 3: and then suddenly the whole relationship is like, well that

461
00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:16,756
Speaker 3: was a disaster. You might experience a pleasant vacation, but

462
00:21:16,836 --> 00:21:19,116
Speaker 3: then you have all kinds of trouble getting home from

463
00:21:19,116 --> 00:21:22,276
Speaker 3: the vacation, and then the whole vacation is spoiled. And

464
00:21:22,316 --> 00:21:25,116
Speaker 3: so this distinction between the stories we tell ourselves about

465
00:21:25,116 --> 00:21:27,636
Speaker 3: our lives, what we remember about our lives, and how

466
00:21:27,636 --> 00:21:30,556
Speaker 3: we're actually experiencing our lives as we go along, it

467
00:21:30,636 --> 00:21:32,796
Speaker 3: really matters. And I'm not sure I would say that

468
00:21:32,956 --> 00:21:35,156
Speaker 3: one of these things is the truth, like the experience

469
00:21:35,196 --> 00:21:36,676
Speaker 3: is the truth and the memory is false. I don't

470
00:21:36,676 --> 00:21:38,756
Speaker 3: think it's that simple, But there's a distinction there that's

471
00:21:38,796 --> 00:21:39,476
Speaker 3: worth exploring.

472
00:21:40,196 --> 00:21:42,756
Speaker 1: Tim is, of course right. That distinction can have a

473
00:21:42,836 --> 00:21:46,316
Speaker 1: huge impact on our lives. Twenty years ago, Danny Carneman

474
00:21:46,396 --> 00:21:49,036
Speaker 1: conducted a study to see if the medical procedure used

475
00:21:49,036 --> 00:21:51,436
Speaker 1: at the time to examine the human bowel for disease

476
00:21:51,716 --> 00:21:54,636
Speaker 1: could be made less uncomfortable, at least in our memories.

477
00:21:55,156 --> 00:21:57,236
Speaker 1: If it could, then fewer people might duck out of

478
00:21:57,276 --> 00:22:00,036
Speaker 1: the exam because of the discomfort, and more lives would

479
00:22:00,076 --> 00:22:03,076
Speaker 1: be saved. So, just like in the ice water experiment,

480
00:22:03,436 --> 00:22:07,436
Speaker 1: Danny decided to extend the duration of a colonoscopy.

481
00:22:07,276 --> 00:22:10,236
Speaker 3: At the end of the procedure that basically the surgeon

482
00:22:10,516 --> 00:22:13,876
Speaker 3: would leave the probe in, so to speak, without wiggling

483
00:22:13,876 --> 00:22:17,316
Speaker 3: it around. So it was kind of uncomfortable, but fine.

484
00:22:17,756 --> 00:22:22,236
Speaker 3: People rated those colonoscopies as less unpleasant, even though minute

485
00:22:22,236 --> 00:22:25,636
Speaker 3: by minute it was clearly worse than the shorter procedure.

486
00:22:26,076 --> 00:22:28,636
Speaker 3: The joy is because of a family history, I have

487
00:22:28,716 --> 00:22:31,356
Speaker 3: to have colonoscopies quite often. We don't want to go

488
00:22:31,356 --> 00:22:34,196
Speaker 3: into too many details, but the whole thing lasts a

489
00:22:34,236 --> 00:22:37,196
Speaker 3: couple of days, and it's a whole journey.

490
00:22:37,796 --> 00:22:40,636
Speaker 1: I once presented the colonoscopy study to a group of

491
00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:43,796
Speaker 1: medical doctors who chastised me afterwards because they noted that

492
00:22:43,836 --> 00:22:47,236
Speaker 1: when Danny did that study and people were in serious

493
00:22:47,356 --> 00:22:50,396
Speaker 1: rectal pain during the entire colonoscopy, and we could kind

494
00:22:50,436 --> 00:22:53,276
Speaker 1: of vary how it ended. That that was before the

495
00:22:53,316 --> 00:22:57,476
Speaker 1: beauty of anesthesia that we have today, And those doctors said,

496
00:22:57,556 --> 00:23:00,156
Speaker 1: your colonoscopy won't be nearly as bad. You'll just kind

497
00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:04,316
Speaker 1: of get knocked out, have no remembered happiness or experienced happiness,

498
00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:06,436
Speaker 1: and then you get a nice little bottle of juice.

499
00:23:06,716 --> 00:23:09,956
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I mean as a connoisseur of of having

500
00:23:10,236 --> 00:23:15,356
Speaker 3: cameras shoved whether the sun doesn't shine, Yeah, they're fine. Actually,

501
00:23:15,396 --> 00:23:20,036
Speaker 3: don't avoid. Do not avoid your kernoroscopy people that it's fine.

502
00:23:20,156 --> 00:23:23,196
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the experience versus remembered happiness stuff. I

503
00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:25,236
Speaker 1: mean for a couple of reasons. One is that I

504
00:23:25,276 --> 00:23:27,196
Speaker 1: love that Danny's figured this out and we can now

505
00:23:27,236 --> 00:23:32,356
Speaker 1: start better engineering enjoyably remembered experiences just by making them

506
00:23:32,396 --> 00:23:34,996
Speaker 1: kind of end pretty well at the end, right, you know,

507
00:23:34,996 --> 00:23:36,996
Speaker 1: if you've had a kind of crappy vacation, you know,

508
00:23:37,036 --> 00:23:38,796
Speaker 1: and it hasn't gone so well at the end, you

509
00:23:38,796 --> 00:23:40,996
Speaker 1: can just kind of stick in some pleasant thing and

510
00:23:41,036 --> 00:23:42,756
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden you can start feeling a

511
00:23:42,756 --> 00:23:45,756
Speaker 1: little bit happier. Danny also gives a suggestion that, you know,

512
00:23:45,796 --> 00:23:48,356
Speaker 1: if you've had this vacation that's gone really well, and

513
00:23:48,396 --> 00:23:50,196
Speaker 1: say that the day that you're flying home, you know,

514
00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:53,876
Speaker 1: everything falls apart and terrible things happen. He would say, well,

515
00:23:53,916 --> 00:23:55,876
Speaker 1: then you need to kind of reframe the vacation. There

516
00:23:55,916 --> 00:23:58,716
Speaker 1: was the vacation, you know, it ended on a high note,

517
00:23:58,796 --> 00:24:00,716
Speaker 1: and then there was the kind of crappy travel day home,

518
00:24:00,716 --> 00:24:02,036
Speaker 1: but I'm just going to kind of put that into

519
00:24:02,116 --> 00:24:04,516
Speaker 1: a different mental slot, and now all of a sudden,

520
00:24:04,556 --> 00:24:07,396
Speaker 1: you can remember your vacation pleasantly, even though it sort

521
00:24:07,396 --> 00:24:09,836
Speaker 1: of ended on a not so good no. And so

522
00:24:09,876 --> 00:24:12,756
Speaker 1: I love this strategy because by using what he calls

523
00:24:12,796 --> 00:24:14,876
Speaker 1: this peak end effect, where you're sort of paying too

524
00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:17,556
Speaker 1: much attention to the end of events, you can sort

525
00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:19,596
Speaker 1: of remember that the end of events matter a lot,

526
00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:21,796
Speaker 1: and you just need to make sure that things end well,

527
00:24:21,876 --> 00:24:24,276
Speaker 1: and then you'll kind of be happier. It's also funny

528
00:24:24,276 --> 00:24:26,436
Speaker 1: to me that I think there's so many natural events

529
00:24:26,436 --> 00:24:28,676
Speaker 1: in our lives that end well and we remember them

530
00:24:28,716 --> 00:24:32,316
Speaker 1: really fondly, like desserts and orgasms and all these things

531
00:24:32,356 --> 00:24:34,956
Speaker 1: that seem to be particularly good at the end, and

532
00:24:34,996 --> 00:24:37,316
Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, we remember these things as

533
00:24:37,356 --> 00:24:38,596
Speaker 1: the best experience as ever.

534
00:24:38,876 --> 00:24:42,236
Speaker 3: Yeah, although meals, if you go out for a meal,

535
00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:43,996
Speaker 3: it doesn't then with dessert.

536
00:24:43,876 --> 00:24:46,996
Speaker 1: Have to end with the bill, ends with the bill, Laurie, It.

537
00:24:46,996 --> 00:24:49,396
Speaker 3: Ends with somebody asking you to pay money. But we

538
00:24:49,436 --> 00:24:52,236
Speaker 3: still go out for dinner, and we don't feel that

539
00:24:52,316 --> 00:24:55,316
Speaker 3: was a mistake. So I guess we successfully compartmentalize the

540
00:24:55,316 --> 00:25:00,116
Speaker 3: bill as being something else. But maybe restaurants should experiment

541
00:25:00,196 --> 00:25:02,236
Speaker 3: with getting people to pay up front. If you go

542
00:25:02,276 --> 00:25:04,556
Speaker 3: to really fancy restaurant and it has a tasting menu,

543
00:25:04,836 --> 00:25:07,196
Speaker 3: you can actually know what the whole thing is going

544
00:25:07,236 --> 00:25:09,516
Speaker 3: to cost, and you could pay in advance. Love this,

545
00:25:10,236 --> 00:25:12,236
Speaker 3: Maybe that would be in everybody's interest. You just remember

546
00:25:12,236 --> 00:25:13,236
Speaker 3: the whole thing more fondly.

547
00:25:13,476 --> 00:25:15,596
Speaker 1: I do think some American restaurants have tried to come

548
00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:17,876
Speaker 1: over this. We have a few restaurants in my hometown

549
00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:19,516
Speaker 1: in New Heaven that when they bring the bill, they'll

550
00:25:19,516 --> 00:25:22,196
Speaker 1: bring you like a little candy or some Swedish fish

551
00:25:22,316 --> 00:25:24,796
Speaker 1: or something. So it's kind of this little surprise moment

552
00:25:24,836 --> 00:25:26,316
Speaker 1: at the ends. You're paying the bill, but then you

553
00:25:26,396 --> 00:25:28,596
Speaker 1: get to have some tasty candy at the end, but

554
00:25:28,596 --> 00:25:30,556
Speaker 1: the bill at the beginning will save them the candy cast.

555
00:25:30,636 --> 00:25:31,916
Speaker 1: I love this idea.

556
00:25:31,516 --> 00:25:35,556
Speaker 3: Absolutely, But this distinction between what we remember and what

557
00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:39,196
Speaker 3: we experience, I think it broadens out beyond this narrow

558
00:25:39,276 --> 00:25:42,516
Speaker 3: but important point of we're really influenced by how things end.

559
00:25:42,516 --> 00:25:44,996
Speaker 3: I mean, that's important in itself, but if you think about,

560
00:25:44,996 --> 00:25:48,876
Speaker 3: for example, the standard question that people are asked when

561
00:25:48,916 --> 00:25:51,516
Speaker 3: they're asked to evaluate their happiness, which is like, how's

562
00:25:51,556 --> 00:25:53,516
Speaker 3: it going. I mean, I realized there's a little bit

563
00:25:53,556 --> 00:25:56,116
Speaker 3: more more formal than that, but I mean that's like

564
00:25:56,196 --> 00:25:56,916
Speaker 3: so metrics.

565
00:25:56,916 --> 00:26:00,196
Speaker 1: Folks that might say that is but no, but seriously,

566
00:26:00,516 --> 00:26:03,156
Speaker 1: all things considered, you know, how happy were you this week? Right?

567
00:26:03,916 --> 00:26:06,716
Speaker 1: That's a remembered judgment. Right. People don't have access to

568
00:26:06,756 --> 00:26:09,996
Speaker 1: their experienced happiness during the week at every moment when

569
00:26:09,996 --> 00:26:11,836
Speaker 1: you're asking them that question. All they have access to

570
00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:15,676
Speaker 1: is that remembered version. And if the remembered version is biased,

571
00:26:15,716 --> 00:26:18,036
Speaker 1: either because it pays too much attention to what just

572
00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:21,116
Speaker 1: happened or how things ended or whatever, then we're just

573
00:26:21,156 --> 00:26:22,996
Speaker 1: not going to get great happiness judgments.

574
00:26:23,116 --> 00:26:26,356
Speaker 3: No, and you've phrased it, how do things go this week?

575
00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:29,596
Speaker 3: Which is one question. But you could ask people how

576
00:26:29,596 --> 00:26:32,276
Speaker 3: are things going in general? How satisfied are you with

577
00:26:32,316 --> 00:26:35,676
Speaker 3: your life? Or you could ask people, tell me about yesterday,

578
00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:38,076
Speaker 3: how are things yesterday? Or you can get them to

579
00:26:38,116 --> 00:26:41,756
Speaker 3: focus in in more detail. Let's walk through what happened yesterday.

580
00:26:41,796 --> 00:26:44,596
Speaker 3: Let's go through the breakfast, the morning commute, you had

581
00:26:44,596 --> 00:26:47,116
Speaker 3: these meetings, you had lunch with a friend, all the

582
00:26:47,116 --> 00:26:50,196
Speaker 3: different things you did. So these are quite distinct ways

583
00:26:50,276 --> 00:26:54,196
Speaker 3: of thinking about measuring happiness. If we're asked, for example,

584
00:26:54,356 --> 00:26:57,356
Speaker 3: to evaluate our lives and we were just about to

585
00:26:57,356 --> 00:27:00,796
Speaker 3: get married or were recently married, you know, I'm getting

586
00:27:00,836 --> 00:27:03,076
Speaker 3: married or I just got married, is that like a

587
00:27:03,196 --> 00:27:05,796
Speaker 3: huge deal? But if instead it's like, well, my children

588
00:27:05,796 --> 00:27:08,236
Speaker 3: are graduating, they're going to leave home, they're going off

589
00:27:08,276 --> 00:27:10,676
Speaker 3: to college. Well that's what you think about. Well maybe

590
00:27:10,676 --> 00:27:13,196
Speaker 3: you're ill and that's what you think about. But actually

591
00:27:13,196 --> 00:27:15,476
Speaker 3: none of these things are in fact as all encompassing

592
00:27:15,836 --> 00:27:18,836
Speaker 3: as they seem to be when you are directing your

593
00:27:18,876 --> 00:27:19,596
Speaker 3: attention at them.

594
00:27:20,196 --> 00:27:20,436
Speaker 2: Yeah.

595
00:27:20,476 --> 00:27:22,956
Speaker 1: I mean. The good news about these measures, though, is

596
00:27:22,956 --> 00:27:24,796
Speaker 1: that one could ask the question like, what are we

597
00:27:24,836 --> 00:27:26,956
Speaker 1: really trying to maximize? Right? You know, most of the

598
00:27:26,996 --> 00:27:28,716
Speaker 1: stuff we talk about in the Happiness Lab is all

599
00:27:28,756 --> 00:27:31,876
Speaker 1: about strategies that you can use to maximize your happiness.

600
00:27:32,196 --> 00:27:34,276
Speaker 1: As the question is what are we trying to maximize?

601
00:27:34,516 --> 00:27:36,196
Speaker 1: And I think to a certain extent, what we're trying

602
00:27:36,196 --> 00:27:39,796
Speaker 1: to maximize is what people say in those remembered judgments. Right.

603
00:27:39,876 --> 00:27:42,196
Speaker 1: For example, if I do some sort of intervention, right,

604
00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:44,356
Speaker 1: like I get people to scribble in a gratitude journal,

605
00:27:44,436 --> 00:27:47,036
Speaker 1: or I get people to engage with more social connection,

606
00:27:47,236 --> 00:27:49,036
Speaker 1: and then later on I asked them, hey, you know,

607
00:27:49,076 --> 00:27:50,876
Speaker 1: all things considered, how are you feeling with your life

608
00:27:50,956 --> 00:27:52,916
Speaker 1: or how are you feeling yesterday? What was your positive

609
00:27:52,916 --> 00:27:55,916
Speaker 1: emotion like yesterday? And people say like, oh, it was

610
00:27:55,956 --> 00:27:58,876
Speaker 1: pretty good. Then my sense is that that social connection intervention,

611
00:27:58,996 --> 00:28:01,636
Speaker 1: or that gratitude intervention, it did actually do some work.

612
00:28:01,716 --> 00:28:03,676
Speaker 1: It might just not be doing all the work we

613
00:28:03,716 --> 00:28:06,476
Speaker 1: assume it's doing because these judgments are a little bit biased.

614
00:28:06,636 --> 00:28:10,556
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't entirely disagree, but I would want to

615
00:28:10,676 --> 00:28:14,436
Speaker 3: raise a question. So if Laurie, for example, you encouraged

616
00:28:14,436 --> 00:28:19,356
Speaker 3: your listeners to maybe go out and have more diverse experiences,

617
00:28:19,476 --> 00:28:22,876
Speaker 3: go and meet more people, go to more places, do

618
00:28:23,036 --> 00:28:29,156
Speaker 3: more challenging things, take more short vacations rather than fewer

619
00:28:29,196 --> 00:28:32,196
Speaker 3: long vacations. Because all of these things are going to

620
00:28:33,196 --> 00:28:35,836
Speaker 3: lay down new memories, your life is going to seem

621
00:28:35,876 --> 00:28:38,396
Speaker 3: richer and more satisfying. I mean, that's advice I would

622
00:28:38,396 --> 00:28:41,196
Speaker 3: give myself, that's advice I would take from you for sure.

623
00:28:41,436 --> 00:28:46,076
Speaker 3: And yet, and yet are you not actually minute to

624
00:28:46,116 --> 00:28:50,436
Speaker 3: minute potentially subjecting yourself to a lot more stress, more congestion,

625
00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:55,556
Speaker 3: more uncomfortable situations, more difficulty, more danger, and actually you're

626
00:28:55,556 --> 00:28:59,596
Speaker 3: going through your life potentially having a worse experience moment

627
00:28:59,676 --> 00:29:02,116
Speaker 3: to moment, and yet at the end of the year

628
00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:04,076
Speaker 3: you look back at it and go, that was great.

629
00:29:04,316 --> 00:29:08,316
Speaker 3: Whose side to Thomas Shelling? Economist Thomas Shelling would would

630
00:29:08,356 --> 00:29:10,916
Speaker 3: talk about this sort of thing, and he would raise

631
00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:13,796
Speaker 3: the question whose side should you be on in that

632
00:29:13,956 --> 00:29:16,436
Speaker 3: argument with yourself? Who's right? And I don't think the

633
00:29:16,476 --> 00:29:17,756
Speaker 3: answer is entirely obvious.

634
00:29:18,116 --> 00:29:20,716
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one strategy we can use to get

635
00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:23,476
Speaker 1: better at it is to do a better job of

636
00:29:23,556 --> 00:29:26,636
Speaker 1: recognizing what's happening in our moment to moment self. I

637
00:29:26,636 --> 00:29:28,516
Speaker 1: think the problem with the moment to moment self is

638
00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:31,596
Speaker 1: that we're not often doing that evaluation. We're not taking

639
00:29:31,636 --> 00:29:34,196
Speaker 1: time to be mindful and to recognize what's going on.

640
00:29:34,796 --> 00:29:36,916
Speaker 1: But I think these practices where people engage in a

641
00:29:36,956 --> 00:29:39,916
Speaker 1: little bit more mindfulness, even when it is being mindful

642
00:29:39,916 --> 00:29:42,036
Speaker 1: about kind of not so great situations, you can kind

643
00:29:42,076 --> 00:29:45,236
Speaker 1: of notice what negative emotions you're experiencing. Those kind of

644
00:29:45,236 --> 00:29:47,476
Speaker 1: strategies can help us pay a little bit more attention

645
00:29:47,596 --> 00:29:50,196
Speaker 1: to the experience self in the moment, so you're kind

646
00:29:50,196 --> 00:29:52,396
Speaker 1: of kind of meta aware as you're going through those

647
00:29:52,476 --> 00:29:55,036
Speaker 1: kinds of events during your day, and I think that

648
00:29:55,036 --> 00:29:56,916
Speaker 1: can help us come up with a little bit of

649
00:29:56,956 --> 00:29:59,156
Speaker 1: a better judgment. Right, we can kind of do the

650
00:29:59,196 --> 00:30:01,236
Speaker 1: work to realize like, yeah, you know, it was fun

651
00:30:01,276 --> 00:30:02,996
Speaker 1: to think about going on that vacation. That was great

652
00:30:03,036 --> 00:30:05,676
Speaker 1: in my remembered happiness, but actually I kind of hate

653
00:30:05,676 --> 00:30:08,756
Speaker 1: the traffic. I kind of hate going through you know,

654
00:30:08,796 --> 00:30:11,596
Speaker 1: the tea essay or whatever. That mindfulness can sort of

655
00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:13,636
Speaker 1: help us pay attention, and I think it can also

656
00:30:13,636 --> 00:30:15,916
Speaker 1: help us pay attention in the other direction too, Right,

657
00:30:15,956 --> 00:30:19,196
Speaker 1: we can start noticing the little good things about our

658
00:30:19,236 --> 00:30:22,036
Speaker 1: life that are going well, so that in times that

659
00:30:22,076 --> 00:30:24,036
Speaker 1: are kind of sucky, we can go back to our

660
00:30:24,076 --> 00:30:27,116
Speaker 1: experienced happiness and notice like, actually, it wasn't that bad.

661
00:30:27,156 --> 00:30:29,796
Speaker 1: I mean, this was to a certain extent my experience

662
00:30:29,876 --> 00:30:32,236
Speaker 1: during COVID, where you know, in large part I was

663
00:30:32,236 --> 00:30:33,916
Speaker 1: just starting some of this happiness work. So I was

664
00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:35,836
Speaker 1: doing all this work and in the moment to kind

665
00:30:35,836 --> 00:30:38,116
Speaker 1: of be mindful of the taste of my coffee and

666
00:30:38,196 --> 00:30:40,876
Speaker 1: be grateful for the small things. And I think my

667
00:30:41,036 --> 00:30:44,276
Speaker 1: overall evaluation of how bad it was during COVID is

668
00:30:44,596 --> 00:30:46,396
Speaker 1: a little bit less bad than it could have been

669
00:30:46,476 --> 00:30:49,956
Speaker 1: in a remembered sense, because I was there noticing mindfully

670
00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:51,876
Speaker 1: some of these little things in life that were good,

671
00:30:51,916 --> 00:30:53,556
Speaker 1: that didn't go away even in the midst of that

672
00:30:53,596 --> 00:30:54,316
Speaker 1: pandemic time.

673
00:30:55,516 --> 00:30:57,876
Speaker 3: One thing I have been doing recently is I have

674
00:30:58,036 --> 00:31:01,196
Speaker 3: been keeping what is sometimes called a good time journal.

675
00:31:01,676 --> 00:31:03,556
Speaker 3: So at the end of each day, I think back

676
00:31:03,596 --> 00:31:05,796
Speaker 3: on what I've been doing and how much fun it was.

677
00:31:06,316 --> 00:31:11,796
Speaker 3: And one thing I really noticed was that intense physical exercise.

678
00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:15,996
Speaker 3: So going to the gym or kickboxing classes, they were

679
00:31:15,996 --> 00:31:19,276
Speaker 3: always great in hindsight, and I know they I mean

680
00:31:19,276 --> 00:31:22,276
Speaker 3: they hurt, they properly hurt. At the time, you were

681
00:31:22,356 --> 00:31:25,236
Speaker 3: so glad. When they're over three hours later, you're looking

682
00:31:25,276 --> 00:31:27,236
Speaker 3: back and going that was the best part of the day.

683
00:31:27,436 --> 00:31:29,996
Speaker 3: And I guess that that is part of the weirdness

684
00:31:30,116 --> 00:31:34,476
Speaker 3: and the fun of Danny Carnerman's distinction that he's making.

685
00:31:34,916 --> 00:31:38,156
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that, as you'd expect from

686
00:31:38,156 --> 00:31:41,756
Speaker 1: a master podcaster. Tim's talk there exercise sets us up

687
00:31:41,756 --> 00:31:44,716
Speaker 1: perfectly for the last part of this special show, which

688
00:31:44,836 --> 00:31:48,716
Speaker 1: Keen amateur runner Malcolm Gladwell turns a familiar happiness maxim

689
00:31:48,756 --> 00:31:50,036
Speaker 1: on its head, it's.

690
00:31:49,836 --> 00:31:53,756
Speaker 2: The journey, not the destination. I just like, no, it's

691
00:31:53,836 --> 00:31:56,756
Speaker 2: the destination. Otherwise, what's the point of the journey.

692
00:31:57,396 --> 00:32:05,236
Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be right back. Hey, Hey, how's

693
00:32:05,236 --> 00:32:05,556
Speaker 1: it going.

694
00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:06,396
Speaker 2: It's going well.

695
00:32:06,796 --> 00:32:09,076
Speaker 1: If I'm asking my fellow Pushkin host to re imagine

696
00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:11,556
Speaker 1: the World Happiness Report, there's no way I could leave

697
00:32:11,556 --> 00:32:14,636
Speaker 1: out revisionist history. Is Malcolm Gladwell. I knew he was

698
00:32:14,676 --> 00:32:16,916
Speaker 1: going to have something interesting and provocative to add.

699
00:32:17,476 --> 00:32:19,956
Speaker 2: All right, we're ready, fire away, all right.

700
00:32:20,116 --> 00:32:21,796
Speaker 1: The question I had for you, Malcolm, is if you

701
00:32:22,316 --> 00:32:24,756
Speaker 1: were an author of the World Happiness Report, if you

702
00:32:24,796 --> 00:32:27,196
Speaker 1: were doing your own chapter in this big report, what

703
00:32:27,436 --> 00:32:28,436
Speaker 1: would you want to talk about?

704
00:32:28,676 --> 00:32:33,196
Speaker 2: I would like to do my argument that the phrase

705
00:32:33,756 --> 00:32:37,916
Speaker 2: it's the journey not the destination is backwards. Oh, there's

706
00:32:37,916 --> 00:32:43,676
Speaker 2: the whole important class of happiness that's about the destination

707
00:32:43,796 --> 00:32:47,996
Speaker 2: and not the journey. And there's a special kind of

708
00:32:48,076 --> 00:32:54,756
Speaker 2: deep and enduring I think pleasure fulfillment, where it's just

709
00:32:54,836 --> 00:32:56,876
Speaker 2: all it's all about where you end up, and that

710
00:32:57,036 --> 00:33:00,996
Speaker 2: getting there is sometimes hard and unpleasant, and that that

711
00:33:01,116 --> 00:33:05,716
Speaker 2: makes the ending even sweeter. I've always found something uniquely

712
00:33:05,996 --> 00:33:10,516
Speaker 2: kind of troubling about that phrase, it's the journey, not

713
00:33:10,556 --> 00:33:17,556
Speaker 2: the destination. I just like, no, it's like it's the destination. Otherwise,

714
00:33:17,556 --> 00:33:18,956
Speaker 2: what's the point of the journey.

715
00:33:19,236 --> 00:33:21,916
Speaker 1: Well, well, let's unpack that a little bit, because there

716
00:33:21,956 --> 00:33:24,436
Speaker 1: are spots. There are spots where I agree with you,

717
00:33:24,476 --> 00:33:26,996
Speaker 1: and there's spots where I think the science might differ

718
00:33:27,036 --> 00:33:27,396
Speaker 1: a little.

719
00:33:28,276 --> 00:33:30,516
Speaker 2: Like I think about this all time because I'm a runner.

720
00:33:30,876 --> 00:33:33,156
Speaker 2: Every time, I've been running my entire life. So I've

721
00:33:33,156 --> 00:33:37,396
Speaker 2: been running. I'm sixty, I've been running for essentially fifty years.

722
00:33:38,156 --> 00:33:41,116
Speaker 2: Every time I go running, I have exactly the same

723
00:33:41,116 --> 00:33:45,036
Speaker 2: psychological experience, which is I don't really want.

724
00:33:44,916 --> 00:33:45,316
Speaker 1: To do it.

725
00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:48,316
Speaker 2: I mean I make a place for it, and I

726
00:33:48,396 --> 00:33:50,796
Speaker 2: kind of formally look forward to it. I packed my

727
00:33:50,876 --> 00:33:52,716
Speaker 2: running clothes. I know when I'm going to go running,

728
00:33:53,356 --> 00:33:55,196
Speaker 2: I drive to a running place or you know, I

729
00:33:55,236 --> 00:33:58,156
Speaker 2: set it all up. But you know, if you told

730
00:33:58,196 --> 00:34:02,796
Speaker 2: me I could go home and drink a beer, you know,

731
00:34:03,116 --> 00:34:05,156
Speaker 2: there's a powerful temptation every time not to do it.

732
00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:09,356
Speaker 2: And then when I'm running, it's not always pleasant. You

733
00:34:09,356 --> 00:34:11,636
Speaker 2: know it's going to be. If you're doing a hard

734
00:34:11,676 --> 00:34:15,196
Speaker 2: track workout, it's hard, it's daunting. I mean, you're pushing

735
00:34:15,196 --> 00:34:20,196
Speaker 2: yourself and it's but then when you're finished, there is

736
00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:24,436
Speaker 2: a kind of experience from having finished it that keeps

737
00:34:24,436 --> 00:34:28,636
Speaker 2: me going back to it for fifty years. It's thirty

738
00:34:29,076 --> 00:34:32,076
Speaker 2: two degrees out there today, I'm going to go running.

739
00:34:32,196 --> 00:34:33,836
Speaker 2: I don't want to go running in thirty two degrees,

740
00:34:33,836 --> 00:34:36,716
Speaker 2: but I will do it because there's a plasure.

741
00:34:36,716 --> 00:34:36,796
Speaker 1: You know.

742
00:34:36,876 --> 00:34:39,236
Speaker 2: When I'm done and I'm back home and it's warm again,

743
00:34:39,796 --> 00:34:42,956
Speaker 2: I'm really really happy that I did it right. But

744
00:34:42,996 --> 00:34:49,396
Speaker 2: I wouldn't describe the actual experience. It's not masochism because

745
00:34:49,556 --> 00:34:52,116
Speaker 2: while I'm running, I have in the back of my

746
00:34:52,276 --> 00:34:56,676
Speaker 2: mind the memory of the feeling of having finished running,

747
00:34:57,196 --> 00:35:01,796
Speaker 2: and that makes the effort worth it and in a

748
00:35:01,836 --> 00:35:04,076
Speaker 2: certain way pleasurable in this sort of in this sort

749
00:35:04,076 --> 00:35:07,956
Speaker 2: of different way, it's like you're testing yourself in this

750
00:35:08,036 --> 00:35:10,796
Speaker 2: way that you you kind of appreciate. That's so that's

751
00:35:10,836 --> 00:35:11,516
Speaker 2: the argument I think.

752
00:35:11,596 --> 00:35:13,556
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it maps on to this

753
00:35:13,636 --> 00:35:16,916
Speaker 1: distinction that I feel like it's mountaineering folks who started

754
00:35:16,916 --> 00:35:19,796
Speaker 1: this distinction between type one and type two fun. So

755
00:35:19,836 --> 00:35:22,676
Speaker 1: type one fun is really just the beer, just sitting

756
00:35:22,716 --> 00:35:25,316
Speaker 1: home having the beer, you know, like you know, hot

757
00:35:25,316 --> 00:35:28,076
Speaker 1: fudge Sunday's orgasms, Like just like the in the moment

758
00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:31,756
Speaker 1: stuff is just good and deeply pleasurable, whereas type two

759
00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:33,916
Speaker 1: fun is sort of the opposite. It's like, again, it's

760
00:35:33,956 --> 00:35:35,996
Speaker 1: not fun in the moment. It's not fun when you're

761
00:35:36,036 --> 00:35:38,076
Speaker 1: like putting your shoes on and that first blast of

762
00:35:38,076 --> 00:35:40,596
Speaker 1: the thirty two degree weather when you're running. But the

763
00:35:40,636 --> 00:35:42,476
Speaker 1: fact that there's a goal at the end that you're

764
00:35:42,476 --> 00:35:44,956
Speaker 1: going to get to means the type two fun winds

765
00:35:45,036 --> 00:35:47,396
Speaker 1: up being really interesting. And this is like just a

766
00:35:47,436 --> 00:35:49,956
Speaker 1: distinction that like sports nuts and like people who write

767
00:35:49,956 --> 00:35:52,436
Speaker 1: in mountaineering blogs make, But it's actually something that the

768
00:35:52,476 --> 00:35:55,516
Speaker 1: economist George Lowenstein studied himself. He wrote this paper of

769
00:35:55,556 --> 00:35:57,916
Speaker 1: like why climb a mountain? But the idea is like,

770
00:35:57,956 --> 00:36:01,276
Speaker 1: why would you ever do something where it's like kind

771
00:36:01,356 --> 00:36:03,876
Speaker 1: of again not masochism, maybe not miserable in the moment,

772
00:36:03,916 --> 00:36:06,316
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have fun in the actual journey itself.

773
00:36:06,316 --> 00:36:09,116
Speaker 1: It just has fun when you hit the end of it. Yeah,

774
00:36:09,156 --> 00:36:11,396
Speaker 1: And so he argues that this is like a deep

775
00:36:11,436 --> 00:36:14,516
Speaker 1: feature of human pleasure seeking, is that we don't just

776
00:36:14,556 --> 00:36:17,196
Speaker 1: seek pleasure kind of in the moment for the journey,

777
00:36:17,476 --> 00:36:20,516
Speaker 1: like most of the good, meaningful pleasures we get involve

778
00:36:20,596 --> 00:36:22,476
Speaker 1: some hard stuff. I mean, you're talking about running, but

779
00:36:22,516 --> 00:36:24,916
Speaker 1: I know you're also a dad and raising a kid,

780
00:36:24,916 --> 00:36:26,436
Speaker 1: and that's the kind of thing that in the moment,

781
00:36:26,756 --> 00:36:28,356
Speaker 1: the pleasure is not great. But when you get to

782
00:36:28,396 --> 00:36:31,796
Speaker 1: these achievement moments like graduates from kindergarten or do these

783
00:36:31,836 --> 00:36:34,356
Speaker 1: fun things like those matter a lot more. And so

784
00:36:34,596 --> 00:36:37,316
Speaker 1: Lowenstein's argument is that there's so much of human motivation

785
00:36:38,116 --> 00:36:40,436
Speaker 1: is motivation not to do the thing kind of in

786
00:36:40,476 --> 00:36:43,196
Speaker 1: the moment for the journey, but the motivation kind of

787
00:36:43,236 --> 00:36:46,396
Speaker 1: comes from the very fact of there being an arrival

788
00:36:46,436 --> 00:36:48,716
Speaker 1: at the end. I think the problem, though, is when

789
00:36:48,996 --> 00:36:51,236
Speaker 1: everything's about the arrival at the end, and I think

790
00:36:51,236 --> 00:36:53,116
Speaker 1: this is the kind of thing I see maybe with

791
00:36:53,196 --> 00:36:56,116
Speaker 1: my students right where they get mistaken about how much

792
00:36:56,116 --> 00:36:58,116
Speaker 1: they're going to enjoy the arrival at the end of

793
00:36:58,556 --> 00:37:01,796
Speaker 1: I don't know, getting into a super good college, or

794
00:37:01,916 --> 00:37:04,636
Speaker 1: getting married, or there's all these big things in life

795
00:37:04,636 --> 00:37:06,876
Speaker 1: that we put our happiness only at the arrival at

796
00:37:06,876 --> 00:37:08,876
Speaker 1: the end, and sometimes that can set us up for

797
00:37:08,956 --> 00:37:11,836
Speaker 1: like kind of mispredicting how good that's going to feel.

798
00:37:11,916 --> 00:37:14,116
Speaker 1: When students get into college there's all these videos now

799
00:37:14,156 --> 00:37:16,956
Speaker 1: of like the acceptance moment when students click on the

800
00:37:16,956 --> 00:37:18,716
Speaker 1: link and they find out did I get into Yale

801
00:37:18,836 --> 00:37:21,396
Speaker 1: or did I not get into Yale? And when they

802
00:37:21,476 --> 00:37:22,796
Speaker 1: click on the link and they get in, they start

803
00:37:22,836 --> 00:37:25,836
Speaker 1: screaming like yeah, that's great. But students will self report

804
00:37:25,836 --> 00:37:29,636
Speaker 1: afterwards like five minutes later, well that was a letdown,

805
00:37:29,716 --> 00:37:31,836
Speaker 1: Like there's just the next caret to go after in

806
00:37:31,876 --> 00:37:34,276
Speaker 1: the next caret, And so I think the challenge is,

807
00:37:34,316 --> 00:37:35,996
Speaker 1: like how do we balance both of those. On the

808
00:37:35,996 --> 00:37:38,556
Speaker 1: one hand, we want to get the meaningful pursuit from

809
00:37:38,556 --> 00:37:41,436
Speaker 1: the big arrival moments in life, but we don't want

810
00:37:41,476 --> 00:37:44,396
Speaker 1: to like have those only be the things, or be

811
00:37:44,436 --> 00:37:47,116
Speaker 1: picking things where their arrival isn't as good as we expected.

812
00:37:47,156 --> 00:37:49,316
Speaker 1: We kind of mispredict how awesome it'll be in the end.

813
00:37:50,396 --> 00:37:52,516
Speaker 2: I think part of the answer is, I'm thinking again

814
00:37:52,556 --> 00:37:55,236
Speaker 2: of the running example. Part of the answer is in

815
00:37:55,396 --> 00:38:00,116
Speaker 2: understanding that the kind of satisfaction that you get from

816
00:38:00,236 --> 00:38:06,636
Speaker 2: the journey is not less, it's just different. So when

817
00:38:06,676 --> 00:38:09,116
Speaker 2: I go for a long run, there's always a moment

818
00:38:09,196 --> 00:38:12,796
Speaker 2: in a long run where like in the middle, where

819
00:38:13,796 --> 00:38:20,356
Speaker 2: you're filled with this sense of awe about what human

820
00:38:20,636 --> 00:38:24,676
Speaker 2: It's funny, in fifty years, I've always had this, always,

821
00:38:24,676 --> 00:38:30,876
Speaker 2: this moment wherein I think, Holy mackerel, I can't believe people.

822
00:38:31,076 --> 00:38:34,276
Speaker 2: It's never personal. It's all about the class of runners.

823
00:38:34,676 --> 00:38:38,396
Speaker 2: I can't believe we're capable of doing this, Like, you know,

824
00:38:38,636 --> 00:38:41,516
Speaker 2: you might be You're eight miles into a twelve mile run,

825
00:38:41,676 --> 00:38:45,716
Speaker 2: so you've been out there for an hour, and you're like,

826
00:38:46,076 --> 00:38:49,996
Speaker 2: is it really possible for someone to be a middle

827
00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:53,196
Speaker 2: aged man to go out and run twelve miles and

828
00:38:53,316 --> 00:38:55,356
Speaker 2: be fine about it? Like it just seems like it

829
00:38:55,396 --> 00:38:58,396
Speaker 2: seems incredible to me, Like you're moving, You're not meandering,

830
00:38:58,436 --> 00:39:00,236
Speaker 2: You're like moving on. You know. It's sort of a

831
00:39:00,276 --> 00:39:04,036
Speaker 2: fairly decent clip. And that's like I was it always.

832
00:39:04,076 --> 00:39:06,156
Speaker 2: It fills me this with the same kind of wonder

833
00:39:06,196 --> 00:39:09,476
Speaker 2: that I get whenever I see anyone doing something thing

834
00:39:10,036 --> 00:39:16,436
Speaker 2: that requires effort and talent and persistence. Right, it makes

835
00:39:16,476 --> 00:39:20,636
Speaker 2: me feel better about human beings that we can we

836
00:39:20,676 --> 00:39:22,036
Speaker 2: can sort of pull this off.

837
00:39:22,276 --> 00:39:24,516
Speaker 1: I love that and it fits with I mean, there's

838
00:39:24,636 --> 00:39:26,956
Speaker 1: this lovely work by Daker Keltner that looks at all

839
00:39:26,996 --> 00:39:30,196
Speaker 1: these domains in which people experience awe and wonder, and

840
00:39:30,276 --> 00:39:32,236
Speaker 1: I think we assume that that's going to be, you know,

841
00:39:32,316 --> 00:39:35,476
Speaker 1: these moments in nature when you connect with the divine.

842
00:39:35,956 --> 00:39:38,036
Speaker 1: And he finds that the most common moments of awe

843
00:39:38,116 --> 00:39:41,236
Speaker 1: in people's everyday experience is when we experience awe for

844
00:39:41,316 --> 00:39:44,996
Speaker 1: the awesomeness of human beings, like human's moral character or

845
00:39:44,996 --> 00:39:47,996
Speaker 1: their individual performance and achievement. And so I love that

846
00:39:48,036 --> 00:39:50,076
Speaker 1: you get that while you're running, but that's not I mean,

847
00:39:50,076 --> 00:39:51,916
Speaker 1: I'm not a runner, but I do, like, you know,

848
00:39:51,956 --> 00:39:54,836
Speaker 1: these long, hardcore yoga routines, and that is not my

849
00:39:54,956 --> 00:39:57,876
Speaker 1: experience in the moment of the top yoga routine. My

850
00:39:57,916 --> 00:40:00,356
Speaker 1: experience is always like why am I doing this?

851
00:40:01,156 --> 00:40:01,596
Speaker 2: Sucks?

852
00:40:02,116 --> 00:40:04,836
Speaker 1: Like I need to figure out, like I need to

853
00:40:04,876 --> 00:40:07,276
Speaker 1: find ways to get to these deep moments of awe during.

854
00:40:07,916 --> 00:40:11,196
Speaker 2: Because you know the There's another way in which journeys

855
00:40:11,276 --> 00:40:14,756
Speaker 2: differ from destinations, which is that the pleasure that comes

856
00:40:14,796 --> 00:40:19,716
Speaker 2: from reaching the destination is I don't want to say fixed,

857
00:40:20,156 --> 00:40:25,236
Speaker 2: it's one very specific, singular thing, whereas the satisfaction that

858
00:40:25,276 --> 00:40:28,396
Speaker 2: comes from the journey, you're cycling through a series of responses,

859
00:40:28,996 --> 00:40:32,596
Speaker 2: so it's thirty two degrees out or whatever. And grew

860
00:40:32,636 --> 00:40:34,996
Speaker 2: up in Canada going and running. I've gone rung in

861
00:40:35,116 --> 00:40:39,916
Speaker 2: minus twenty before there's that dread, Oh you know, shit,

862
00:40:39,996 --> 00:40:42,636
Speaker 2: go ahead. Then there's like ten minutes and you're like

863
00:40:42,676 --> 00:40:45,636
Speaker 2: it's not that bad. And then fifteen minutes in your

864
00:40:45,636 --> 00:40:47,316
Speaker 2: relax and just sort of running easily and you're not

865
00:40:47,356 --> 00:40:49,396
Speaker 2: tired yet. And then there's that all moment like I

866
00:40:49,436 --> 00:40:52,236
Speaker 2: can't believe I'm doing this. It's kind of amazing, right,

867
00:40:52,276 --> 00:40:56,636
Speaker 2: and then there's that kind of like it's almost over exhilaration.

868
00:40:57,316 --> 00:41:01,636
Speaker 2: It's like the journey is six different emotional states. The

869
00:41:01,676 --> 00:41:06,036
Speaker 2: destination is one, and it's just and I think whenever

870
00:41:06,076 --> 00:41:09,116
Speaker 2: I try to get non runners to run, it's very

871
00:41:09,236 --> 00:41:12,916
Speaker 2: difficult to explain them that they're fixated on the first state,

872
00:41:13,796 --> 00:41:16,316
Speaker 2: which is, oh man, it's hard, I don't know about there,

873
00:41:16,436 --> 00:41:20,156
Speaker 2: and they forget no, no, no, there's like there's there's five

874
00:41:20,236 --> 00:41:22,196
Speaker 2: more after that. You just have to get to them.

875
00:41:22,636 --> 00:41:24,756
Speaker 2: This is a big deal in Canada because of how

876
00:41:24,836 --> 00:41:27,196
Speaker 2: much running you have to do in the cold, that

877
00:41:27,276 --> 00:41:30,876
Speaker 2: you have to understand that cold only only is a

878
00:41:30,916 --> 00:41:32,316
Speaker 2: problem for the first five minutes.

879
00:41:32,876 --> 00:41:34,876
Speaker 1: And I think that's true for so many experiences that

880
00:41:34,956 --> 00:41:37,356
Speaker 1: ultimately give us happiness right, Like I think, you know,

881
00:41:37,636 --> 00:41:39,476
Speaker 1: on the show, we talk a lot about social connection,

882
00:41:39,596 --> 00:41:42,836
Speaker 1: for example, like just talking to a stranger, which ultimately,

883
00:41:42,876 --> 00:41:45,316
Speaker 1: once you're five minutes into it and it's feeling good,

884
00:41:45,556 --> 00:41:48,196
Speaker 1: is awesome and you really enjoy it. But the friction

885
00:41:48,356 --> 00:41:51,076
Speaker 1: at the start of it, that first question that kind

886
00:41:51,076 --> 00:41:52,996
Speaker 1: of awkward or they're going to hate me. All those

887
00:41:53,036 --> 00:41:55,196
Speaker 1: predictions are off. And so I think this is like

888
00:41:55,196 --> 00:41:58,556
Speaker 1: maybe a deep truth of things that make us like happy,

889
00:41:58,756 --> 00:42:00,636
Speaker 1: is that a lot of them start with some friction,

890
00:42:01,356 --> 00:42:03,836
Speaker 1: and like the first the first step is sucky, and

891
00:42:03,916 --> 00:42:05,676
Speaker 1: you have to overcome the sucky step to get to

892
00:42:05,716 --> 00:42:07,716
Speaker 1: the good part. But a lot of times we like

893
00:42:07,956 --> 00:42:10,196
Speaker 1: miss miss the sucky I mean, I think that that's

894
00:42:10,236 --> 00:42:12,636
Speaker 1: a real problem with so many of our happiness pursuits,

895
00:42:12,676 --> 00:42:15,156
Speaker 1: is that, like we have to overcome that moment of friction,

896
00:42:15,596 --> 00:42:17,756
Speaker 1: but there's often an opportunity cost of the thing that

897
00:42:17,796 --> 00:42:19,636
Speaker 1: has no friction, you know, for you with the run,

898
00:42:19,676 --> 00:42:21,756
Speaker 1: it's like instead of getting out in the like thirty

899
00:42:21,796 --> 00:42:24,396
Speaker 1: two degree day, sit home and have the beer. Right,

900
00:42:24,436 --> 00:42:27,236
Speaker 1: the frictionless thing is always appealing, but to get to

901
00:42:27,276 --> 00:42:29,116
Speaker 1: the thing that makes us truly kind of feel great,

902
00:42:29,156 --> 00:42:31,276
Speaker 1: we have to kind of overcome those first steps of friction.

903
00:42:31,636 --> 00:42:31,916
Speaker 4: Yeah.

904
00:42:32,156 --> 00:42:35,596
Speaker 2: You know, various sports have different relationships to these questions

905
00:42:35,596 --> 00:42:38,396
Speaker 2: that we're talking about, and one of the most extreme

906
00:42:38,756 --> 00:42:42,556
Speaker 2: is cyclists. I used to listen a lot to still

907
00:42:42,596 --> 00:42:46,356
Speaker 2: do to Lance Armstrong's podcast, which is actually really good.

908
00:42:46,716 --> 00:42:48,676
Speaker 2: You know, there's always a moment where Lance has one

909
00:42:48,676 --> 00:42:51,476
Speaker 2: of his fellow cyclists on and they just talk about

910
00:42:51,556 --> 00:42:55,116
Speaker 2: start talking about suffering, and like you realize they don't

911
00:42:55,156 --> 00:42:58,196
Speaker 2: mean suffering the way we mean suffering. I don't think

912
00:42:58,196 --> 00:43:01,156
Speaker 2: there's anything that's as painful as the Twitter France. I

913
00:43:01,196 --> 00:43:04,196
Speaker 2: don't I just nothing. Running a marathon for a world

914
00:43:04,236 --> 00:43:06,196
Speaker 2: class athlete, it's like two hours and ten minutes and

915
00:43:06,236 --> 00:43:08,796
Speaker 2: then you're done. The Twitter France guys are out there

916
00:43:08,836 --> 00:43:12,756
Speaker 2: like all day for like weeks. It's insane. They're like

917
00:43:13,436 --> 00:43:17,036
Speaker 2: risking their lives, They're losing twenty pounds, their butts, sore,

918
00:43:17,116 --> 00:43:19,156
Speaker 2: their back. I mean, it's just like incredible, Like what

919
00:43:19,196 --> 00:43:21,316
Speaker 2: they go through. The whole thing is just nuts. It's

920
00:43:21,356 --> 00:43:23,796
Speaker 2: just nuts. I mean it does look to the rest

921
00:43:23,836 --> 00:43:27,596
Speaker 2: of us like masochism, but their ability to kind of

922
00:43:28,036 --> 00:43:33,596
Speaker 2: reinterpret masochism as something fulfilling and redeeming, and it's just

923
00:43:34,156 --> 00:43:36,916
Speaker 2: it's just amazing to me. I remember once Lence was

924
00:43:36,956 --> 00:43:38,876
Speaker 2: talking to some guy and they were talking about how

925
00:43:38,876 --> 00:43:42,276
Speaker 2: they're trying to teach their kids to suffer in the

926
00:43:42,316 --> 00:43:44,796
Speaker 2: way that they liked suffering, and how it was just impossible.

927
00:43:44,836 --> 00:43:47,956
Speaker 2: Like it's not a generational thing. It's just that those

928
00:43:48,236 --> 00:43:52,236
Speaker 2: cyclists are so singular in their ability to reinterpret pain.

929
00:43:52,356 --> 00:43:54,876
Speaker 1: Well, you'll appreciate that. In fact, one of the most

930
00:43:54,916 --> 00:43:58,956
Speaker 1: famous papers on what's known as rosy retrospection, which is

931
00:43:58,996 --> 00:44:01,076
Speaker 1: this idea that you look back at an experience that

932
00:44:01,156 --> 00:44:02,996
Speaker 1: was kind of sucking, you think that was awesome. I

933
00:44:02,996 --> 00:44:06,076
Speaker 1: would totally do it again. It actually looked at competitive

934
00:44:06,076 --> 00:44:10,556
Speaker 1: cyclists they oh really yeah, yeah, people's happiness at every

935
00:44:10,636 --> 00:44:12,876
Speaker 1: at various moments along the trip. And you know, when

936
00:44:12,916 --> 00:44:14,996
Speaker 1: you're going to the trip for cycling, you feel great,

937
00:44:15,236 --> 00:44:17,796
Speaker 1: and then you're on the trip and every rating is low,

938
00:44:18,196 --> 00:44:20,676
Speaker 1: and then you come back and it's and you say,

939
00:44:20,716 --> 00:44:22,836
Speaker 1: what was your average rating on the trip, And that

940
00:44:23,396 --> 00:44:26,476
Speaker 1: retrospective average rating on the trip is like many points

941
00:44:26,556 --> 00:44:29,236
Speaker 1: higher than the actual average at any point on the trip,

942
00:44:29,516 --> 00:44:31,796
Speaker 1: So you kind of think back positively. So maybe it's

943
00:44:32,036 --> 00:44:34,676
Speaker 1: they didn't. They didn't look into the individual differences that cyclist,

944
00:44:34,676 --> 00:44:36,756
Speaker 1: and they were trying to make a general point about

945
00:44:36,836 --> 00:44:39,876
Speaker 1: human nature and rosy retrospect, and they weren't making at

946
00:44:40,116 --> 00:44:43,436
Speaker 1: individual differences and cyclists in particular. But maybe they should have.

947
00:44:43,476 --> 00:44:44,676
Speaker 1: Maybe cyclists especially I.

948
00:44:45,236 --> 00:44:47,396
Speaker 2: Used to cycle a lot, and I just stopped. I

949
00:44:47,436 --> 00:44:50,236
Speaker 2: can't reinterpret my suffering the way they do. Let's go

950
00:44:50,316 --> 00:44:53,476
Speaker 2: do a century. You know, you ride by one hundred miles,

951
00:44:53,716 --> 00:44:57,556
Speaker 2: so nuts. It's like, I'm perfectly happy to suffer, but

952
00:44:57,596 --> 00:44:59,276
Speaker 2: I will not suffer for six hours.

953
00:44:59,396 --> 00:45:00,676
Speaker 1: So how do you get how do you get through

954
00:45:00,716 --> 00:45:03,116
Speaker 1: the initial friction on your runs? Right? What's the what's

955
00:45:03,556 --> 00:45:05,676
Speaker 1: a tip that our listeners can use to kind of

956
00:45:05,716 --> 00:45:08,876
Speaker 1: bust through that friction to get to the happier, longer,

957
00:45:09,196 --> 00:45:10,236
Speaker 1: more meaningful journey.

958
00:45:10,036 --> 00:45:13,476
Speaker 2: At the end starts low as the obvious one. In

959
00:45:13,516 --> 00:45:16,156
Speaker 2: the beginning, you're trying to distract yourself and you're thinking

960
00:45:16,196 --> 00:45:18,556
Speaker 2: about kinds of things. You will eventually as you get

961
00:45:18,596 --> 00:45:21,516
Speaker 2: into it, be running associatively where you just be focused

962
00:45:21,556 --> 00:45:24,556
Speaker 2: on yourself. And that's very kind of you know, as

963
00:45:24,636 --> 00:45:26,636
Speaker 2: runners high whatever they want to call it, but I don't.

964
00:45:26,996 --> 00:45:29,596
Speaker 2: I prefer it sounds to me, that makes it sound

965
00:45:29,636 --> 00:45:34,076
Speaker 2: very extravagant. It's just a kind of point of equilibrium.

966
00:45:34,396 --> 00:45:37,036
Speaker 2: You'll get there eventually. I think a lot of the

967
00:45:37,076 --> 00:45:40,516
Speaker 2: problems that beginning runners have is it sounds very paradoxical,

968
00:45:40,836 --> 00:45:43,436
Speaker 2: is their runs are too short. So go out for

969
00:45:43,516 --> 00:45:45,956
Speaker 2: two miles. No, no, no, no, two miles. I'm sorry,

970
00:45:46,596 --> 00:45:48,716
Speaker 2: you're not transitioning to anything if all you're doing is

971
00:45:48,756 --> 00:45:51,076
Speaker 2: running two miles, Like there is a kind of I've

972
00:45:51,076 --> 00:45:52,916
Speaker 2: always thought many runers with me that there is a

973
00:45:53,156 --> 00:45:57,116
Speaker 2: magic about going past an hour that once you get

974
00:45:57,156 --> 00:46:01,316
Speaker 2: into hour two, really really lovely things happen. It could

975
00:46:01,316 --> 00:46:04,516
Speaker 2: be forty five minutes, but it's certainly not fifteen minutes,

976
00:46:04,676 --> 00:46:06,156
Speaker 2: like it's not happening.

977
00:46:06,396 --> 00:46:07,916
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is cool. You've got to get You have

978
00:46:07,956 --> 00:46:10,116
Speaker 1: to give yourself the time, and then once you get

979
00:46:10,116 --> 00:46:11,756
Speaker 1: into it, the flow start kicking in.

980
00:46:12,116 --> 00:46:15,356
Speaker 2: Yeah. The same thing, by the way, with writing a book,

981
00:46:15,596 --> 00:46:18,756
Speaker 2: any kind of long concentrated activity, is just you have

982
00:46:18,836 --> 00:46:22,476
Speaker 2: to readjust your time horizons. You're not making sense of

983
00:46:22,956 --> 00:46:26,476
Speaker 2: a draft in two days. You know, if you're disappointed

984
00:46:26,476 --> 00:46:28,916
Speaker 2: after two days, it's because your time horizon was wrong.

985
00:46:29,156 --> 00:46:30,796
Speaker 1: And this raises a question of like how we can

986
00:46:30,796 --> 00:46:33,716
Speaker 1: get to better time horizons. But ironically, some of the

987
00:46:33,756 --> 00:46:37,196
Speaker 1: research by Shichi Twang and Jennifer Aker at Stanford suggests

988
00:46:37,196 --> 00:46:39,396
Speaker 1: that one way we can get to longer time horizons

989
00:46:39,916 --> 00:46:42,036
Speaker 1: is to start thinking about the journey more. They have

990
00:46:42,076 --> 00:46:44,716
Speaker 1: all this work on what they call journey mindset. For example,

991
00:46:44,756 --> 00:46:46,156
Speaker 1: like I want to lose some weight, I want to

992
00:46:46,236 --> 00:46:48,156
Speaker 1: know hit my goal weight. Like no, Actually, what you

993
00:46:48,196 --> 00:46:50,116
Speaker 1: want to do is like be it your goal weight

994
00:46:50,156 --> 00:46:52,436
Speaker 1: for a really long time. Or I want to like

995
00:46:52,676 --> 00:46:54,756
Speaker 1: get this feeling of happiness that comes from like writing

996
00:46:54,756 --> 00:46:56,476
Speaker 1: the book. I want to get through the book Like no,

997
00:46:56,836 --> 00:46:59,036
Speaker 1: you want to experience the benefit of having written the

998
00:46:59,036 --> 00:47:00,636
Speaker 1: book and be able to talk to, you know, the

999
00:47:00,636 --> 00:47:03,276
Speaker 1: people who read it and experience those ideas later. Or

1000
00:47:03,276 --> 00:47:05,556
Speaker 1: for my college students, like I want to get my degree, No,

1001
00:47:05,956 --> 00:47:07,476
Speaker 1: you want to like get a degree so you can

1002
00:47:07,516 --> 00:47:10,076
Speaker 1: be a lifelong learner and get the skills you need

1003
00:47:10,116 --> 00:47:12,916
Speaker 1: to learn in the future. So they find that it's

1004
00:47:12,956 --> 00:47:16,236
Speaker 1: easier to sustain motivation, for example, for getting a college

1005
00:47:16,276 --> 00:47:18,396
Speaker 1: degree or writing for the book, if you think of

1006
00:47:18,516 --> 00:47:20,516
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you're going to get out

1007
00:47:20,516 --> 00:47:23,516
Speaker 1: of it that's beyond the achievement, and so ironically you

1008
00:47:23,596 --> 00:47:25,236
Speaker 1: might have gotten back to the fact that the journey

1009
00:47:25,276 --> 00:47:25,996
Speaker 1: maybe is good.

1010
00:47:26,996 --> 00:47:29,676
Speaker 2: No, Remember I didn't say journy didn't matter. I was

1011
00:47:29,716 --> 00:47:34,836
Speaker 2: objecting to the phrase it's the journey, not the destination.

1012
00:47:34,556 --> 00:47:36,476
Speaker 1: The journey and the destination.

1013
00:47:36,676 --> 00:47:39,236
Speaker 2: It's the journey and the destination. Yes, I'll buy that.

1014
00:47:40,436 --> 00:47:42,916
Speaker 1: So Malcolm wants to see the destination given a bit

1015
00:47:42,956 --> 00:47:46,036
Speaker 1: more love in the World Happiness Report, while Tim Harford

1016
00:47:46,036 --> 00:47:48,716
Speaker 1: would like to add a chapter on our memories of happiness,

1017
00:47:49,036 --> 00:47:52,356
Speaker 1: and Maya Schunker thinks that tackling our disruptive inner monologues

1018
00:47:52,436 --> 00:47:55,676
Speaker 1: should be included. But we'll be back to examine what's

1019
00:47:55,676 --> 00:47:58,556
Speaker 1: in the Real World Happiness Report. We'll talk to its

1020
00:47:58,556 --> 00:48:01,036
Speaker 1: authors about what they think are the most pressing issues

1021
00:48:01,076 --> 00:48:03,996
Speaker 1: facing us in twenty twenty four. All that on the

1022
00:48:04,036 --> 00:48:06,916
Speaker 1: next episode of The Happiness Lab with Me Doctor Laurie

1023
00:48:06,956 --> 00:48:13,036
Speaker 1: Santo's