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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined as always with our super

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Speaker 1: producer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are you, You are here and that makes this stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. It's that time again

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Speaker 1: for our listener male segment Doc code named Doc. Can

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Speaker 1: we get some kind of applause que terfict because we

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Speaker 1: went back through and we scorch voicemail earth a cavalcade

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Speaker 1: of stories from the best part of the show, which

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Speaker 1: is you and your fellow listeners. We've also been getting

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Speaker 1: some some great responses to U. Two stories that we

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Speaker 1: covered in the past begains firsthand follow ups. Uh, what

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Speaker 1: we have for you today, one question that I think

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Speaker 1: has been on a lot of our minds for a

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Speaker 1: number of years. One story that was in particular very

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Speaker 1: new to me. Uh. And then another disturbing follow up

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Speaker 1: to some things we've covered occurring in the land of

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Speaker 1: our neighbors to the north, which would be Canada for

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Speaker 1: anyone who can't tell from our access somehow. Uh So

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Speaker 1: with this in mind, uh, gentlemen, where would you like

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Speaker 1: to start? What we like to start with government plans,

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Speaker 1: the fuss with mind control? Would we like to start

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Speaker 1: with crime and sports? Or would we like to dive

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Speaker 1: into perhaps the most grizzly stuff? How about sports? Cry

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Speaker 1: that sounds fascinating to Yeah, that's where you want to go.

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Speaker 1: Huh you want to travel, travel to Ireland a little

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Speaker 1: bit and go worldwide with it. Let's do all right?

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Speaker 1: Taking it away, we are jumping to a message. Then

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Speaker 1: don't worry. If you sent this to us, you asked

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Speaker 1: us to keep the email confidential. I have removed anything

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Speaker 1: that could be possibly identifying here and I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to read the content of what you sent us. So

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Speaker 1: this comes from anonymous boxing fan. Cool cool. This person writes,

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Speaker 1: I'm a casual boxing fan and last month I had

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Speaker 1: clicked on a link on a BBC article that caught

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Speaker 1: my attention. The article connected Tyson Fury. This is a

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Speaker 1: very big boxer, big name in the boxing world. Tyson

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Speaker 1: Fury to a man named Daniel Kinahan, kin Ahn k

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Speaker 1: I N A H A N who was a known

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Speaker 1: Irish crime boss dealing in heroin, guns and money. Launch. R.

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Speaker 1: Daniel Kinahan was the head of a boxing management company

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Speaker 1: m g M, which is now named m t K.

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Speaker 1: I believe it was a pr move to change the name,

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Speaker 1: cleanse the image, and have Mr Kinahan take more of

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Speaker 1: a back seat. I know you can relate, but I

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Speaker 1: went down a rabbit hole of reading about the Irish

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Speaker 1: gang war between the Kinahans and the Hutches h U

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Speaker 1: T C H. A shootout at away in one of

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Speaker 1: the shooters dressed in drag, multiple crime families, retaliation murders

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Speaker 1: seemed like something out of a movie. It shocked me

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Speaker 1: that Mr Kinahan was able to still be associated with

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Speaker 1: boxing negotiations and management. M t K is now taking

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Speaker 1: over boxing by managing many more fighters and is expanding

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Speaker 1: into the United States. I was surprised to hear an

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Speaker 1: associate was murdered in Connecticut. Come to find out, the

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Speaker 1: U s CEO of m t K, this boxing management firm,

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Speaker 1: Bob Yalen or Yellen y A L E N, lives

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Speaker 1: in Connecticut. I'll provide a few links to articles in

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Speaker 1: the BBC documentary This hasn't gotten much coverage in the US,

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Speaker 1: and thought it might be a topic you guys would

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Speaker 1: like covering. Keep up the great work. Kind regards anonymous

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Speaker 1: boxing fan. So, oh boy, is this listener correct and

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Speaker 1: that this is a rabbit hole I have. I have

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Speaker 1: to be honest with everyone here. I kind of stuck

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Speaker 1: to the BBC as a primary source just because there

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Speaker 1: was such great reporting coming out of that that outfit. UM,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna discuss it a little bit today what we

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Speaker 1: found thus far, and guys, I think this is there's

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Speaker 1: enough red meat here for a full episode. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about this off air earlier. I would go

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Speaker 1: a step further. I would say, shout out to Don

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Speaker 1: King want to talk about crime and boxing? I would

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Speaker 1: say that, um, sports in crime is one episode by itself,

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Speaker 1: and this in boxing crime in particular second episodes. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we call it a two part series while we're giving

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Speaker 1: ourselves homework and promising. If you don't hear a two

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Speaker 1: part series from us, please directly do not hesitate. Send

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Speaker 1: an email to our complaint department Jonathan Strickland at Ighart

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Speaker 1: Radio dot com. Um, but give us a couple of

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Speaker 1: months to sort this out. But let's let's get into

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Speaker 1: this story first bat because I think what I think,

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Speaker 1: what we owe our fellow conspiracy realist. Here is a

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Speaker 1: little bit, a little taste, a little bit of an

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Speaker 1: overview of why this has to be a full episode.

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Speaker 1: What do you say, Oh, yeah, sure? Well, First of all,

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Speaker 1: there are two things that you probably already know but

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Speaker 1: are worth stating here the reason why sports in general

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Speaker 1: and especially boxing are so right for corruption or are

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Speaker 1: ready to be taken over essentially by a group that

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Speaker 1: maybe makes money in um in the black market in

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Speaker 1: some way. So there are two things you need to know.

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Speaker 1: The first, there's so much money to be made in

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Speaker 1: the motion of large boxing, like like big boxing matches,

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Speaker 1: big fights of any kind. We're talking m M A

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Speaker 1: as well, but specifically in boxing. There's a long standing

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Speaker 1: history of lots and lots of money to be made

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Speaker 1: when there's a big exhibition fight or a big title fight,

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Speaker 1: especially title fights and heavyweights, my goodness, because you can

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Speaker 1: get a lot of people to view them, you can

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Speaker 1: get a lot of eyes on them if you're going

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Speaker 1: to broadcast it in any way, and you can get

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Speaker 1: a ton of people to show up in real life

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Speaker 1: to an event. You can do it in a stadium.

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Speaker 1: It's just good money from an event standpoint. The other

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Speaker 1: is that betting exists and it's illegal in many places,

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Speaker 1: and many kinds of betting is legal and you can

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Speaker 1: do that, and that's a whole big market. But on

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Speaker 1: the other side of that is the illegal betting, the

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Speaker 1: off the book stuff, the stuff that's handled by people

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Speaker 1: you know that maybe loaning some money out to others.

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Speaker 1: You know. Um, there's what we can talk around it.

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Speaker 1: But organized crime essentially can make a ton of money

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Speaker 1: through betting on sports like this off the books. So

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Speaker 1: just putting that out there as where we're level set

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Speaker 1: now to discuss this stuff. Let's jump to what our

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Speaker 1: listener was talking about. He linked us to a BBC

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Speaker 1: article titled Daniel Kinahan questions over Fury, Joshua fight promoters,

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Speaker 1: drug gang links. This is Daniel Kinahan, this person who

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Speaker 1: is allegedly a crime boss. He is linked to Tyson Fury,

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest names in boxing. He won a

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Speaker 1: heavyweight match in then he left the sport for a while,

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Speaker 1: came back one some more titles and he's got another

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Speaker 1: big fight coming along. I believe it's in um and

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think that's happened yet, Correct

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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. This article is from June, but

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Speaker 1: this whole thing, this whole article is about Tie Sin.

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Speaker 1: Fury went on social media and made a post about

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Speaker 1: how he he thanked Dan, a guy named Dan, and

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Speaker 1: then mentioned Dan Kinahan in particular for making this fight happen.

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Speaker 1: So in some way Canahan made a connection, sealed the

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Speaker 1: deal with a handshake or something to to make this

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Speaker 1: fight actually occur. And Tyson loves this because not only

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Speaker 1: is this, you know, bringing him up on a fame level,

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Speaker 1: He's gonna get a huge fight. He's also gonna make

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Speaker 1: a ton of money because of this fight. And the Irish.

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Speaker 1: There's an Irish Prime Minister named Leo Varadkar v A

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Speaker 1: R A d k a R who came forward after

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Speaker 1: he heard this post that Tyson Fury made and he

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Speaker 1: said he was taken aback by these comments because they

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Speaker 1: were referring to someone with a quote checkered history. And again,

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Speaker 1: this is my first time learning about this person, Daniel Kinahan.

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Speaker 1: But uh, this guy has a history. I'm gonna jump

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Speaker 1: to a portion of another article and this one is

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Speaker 1: describing Daniel Kinahan. Now this is very important. This is

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Speaker 1: a quote. Mr Kinahan has no criminal convictions, okay when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about this person, but he was named in

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Speaker 1: Irish courts as the head of a prominent drug cartel.

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Speaker 1: The Criminal Assets Bureau which is part of the Irish police,

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Speaker 1: it's the GUARDA. You've probably heard of them just from television,

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Speaker 1: That's where I've heard of them from. And some reporting.

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Speaker 1: Um they say that he controlled and managed operations of

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Speaker 1: this crime syndicate or one of these crime syndicates and

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Speaker 1: quote has associations that facilitate international criminal activity in Europe, Asia,

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Speaker 1: the Middle East and South America and Europole. According to

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Speaker 1: the BBC identified this gang that was linked to Mr

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Speaker 1: Kinahan as one of the main cocaine importers in Europe.

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Speaker 1: It says it now smuggled its surplus supplies to trees

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Speaker 1: as far away as Australia. And the FBI qualifies him

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Speaker 1: as a narco terrorist as well, I believe exactly. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So he is identified as being this prime you know,

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Speaker 1: member of this group, but he has no convictions as

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Speaker 1: in nobody has ever Maken made anything stick yet to Kinahan. Um,

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Speaker 1: spoiler alert for me, and I think he'll be a

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Speaker 1: parent later in this segment. Um, are we going to

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Speaker 1: get to why that's not happening or why he's walking around? Well,

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Speaker 1: I will talk to me about it, talk to me.

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Speaker 1: Let's wait, let's wait till the let's wait till the

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Speaker 1: we need to learn more. I think first, well, there's

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Speaker 1: more stuff to this and it's huge, and it's like

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm breaking a part of the timeline already and

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Speaker 1: by telling this to you, sorry, terrible storytelling going on

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Speaker 1: over here. But there was there was a shootout that

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Speaker 1: are our emailer mentioned there there or there are several

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Speaker 1: deaths that started with the event that was described there.

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Speaker 1: And that's really how the world, or at least the

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Speaker 1: BBC came to know Dan Kinahan. Uh. And they're saying

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Speaker 1: in Ireland in February, that's when the there was gunmen

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Speaker 1: that attacked away in at a boxing match and it

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Speaker 1: resulted in the murder of somebody who was a leader

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Speaker 1: I suppose in the Kinahan crime cartel. At least that's

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Speaker 1: the way that it was reported. And it's thought that

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Speaker 1: perhaps Daniel Kinahan was at was the intended target of

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Speaker 1: those gunmen, but then instead killed somebody also high up

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Speaker 1: in the organization, just not not the target. Feud. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is the this is the Hutch Kinahan feud. And

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Speaker 1: there's a long timeline there of like a murder that

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Speaker 1: takes place in Spain, and then from there there's a

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Speaker 1: cascade of retaliation murders with between the two families, with

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Speaker 1: the crime families. And there's even footage you may have

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Speaker 1: seen this. There's some pretty grizzly footage of this occurrence

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Speaker 1: that you can find online. And there's a BBC Panorama

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Speaker 1: documentary that includes portions of that footage. UM, you can

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Speaker 1: find it online in a couple of places in the US.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of difficult to track down and to be

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Speaker 1: able to watch, but you can find portions of it

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Speaker 1: on YouTube if you search Panorama, BBC Boxing and maybe

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Speaker 1: Daniel Kinahan. UM, you can find you can find it,

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Speaker 1: or you know, watch it, watch it in a legitimate

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Speaker 1: way if you can, if you want to pay for

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Speaker 1: it and support the broadcaster. It's just it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: do and it doesn't support Kinahan. If that's what you're

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Speaker 1: worried about. No, no, no, no, no, no, We're not

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Speaker 1: even at We didn't even get to the heart of

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Speaker 1: the stuff. The concept that this guy who is allegedly

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Speaker 1: making all of this money through this crime syndicate, selling drugs,

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Speaker 1: selling guns, doing all kinds of other things like that,

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Speaker 1: is then profiting off of these boxing matches that are

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Speaker 1: you know, on pay per view, their their broadcast the

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Speaker 1: world over. They make millions and millions and millions of

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Speaker 1: dollars and potentially can launder all of that money easily

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Speaker 1: through betting. Right, that's one of the great things about

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Speaker 1: about sports and betting. You can launder craploads of money

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Speaker 1: through that stuff. Um, just that these are boxing matches

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Speaker 1: that end up being title fights for organizations that are

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Speaker 1: not necessarily connected with or with organized crime in anyway.

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Speaker 1: So it's like selling the image of the sports, selling

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Speaker 1: the image of those organizations, and in this case, actually

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Speaker 1: getting people killed because of this this gang war. I

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Speaker 1: think the most remarkable thing too about the story on

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Speaker 1: the BBC and not the most remarkable and being I'm

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Speaker 1: being silly, but there's an amazing picture of this guy,

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Speaker 1: Tyson Fury uh and he's wearing like this really like

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Speaker 1: crazy print at it looks like it has like eight

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Speaker 1: balls on it or billiard balls or no, it's like

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Speaker 1: actually images of like boxers printed on the jacket and

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Speaker 1: he's wearing no shirt underneath it and a necktie just

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Speaker 1: around his bare neck. Uh, it's an absolute Are you

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Speaker 1: talking about Tyson Fury, Yeah, Tyson Furies. Amazing, Dude, look

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Speaker 1: at this guy. He's he's um, he's hailed and I

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Speaker 1: don't even want to use the term, but as like um,

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Speaker 1: the traveler King maybe or something like maybe that's how

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Speaker 1: you would say it. Now. The baby the Panorama I

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Speaker 1: think referred to him as the Gypsy King. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but he's he's like, he's pretty awesome. You can see

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Speaker 1: some well. In my opinion, he is a very interesting character,

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Speaker 1: let's put it that way, because he really kind of

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Speaker 1: just jumped on the scene and then he went into

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Speaker 1: some hard times, you got in some hard, rough places,

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Speaker 1: came back and he seems to be pretty inspiring just

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Speaker 1: in that he just goes for it. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: Brad Pitt's character and was based on him. Uh. Mickey

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Speaker 1: O'Neill from Snatch is like a known cinematic adaptation of

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Speaker 1: Tyson Fury. Okay makes perfect. It's like how that's that's

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Speaker 1: actually how I learned about Tyson Fury. Uh no, ding

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Speaker 1: on Brad Pitt's acting, but I thought this had to

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Speaker 1: come from some way. That's that's blowing my mind. Is

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Speaker 1: that true? Oh my gosh, because I you know, I

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Speaker 1: didn't learn about him until he was kind of working

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Speaker 1: his way up to that title fighting the late teens. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's the that's the rumor. At least I haven't. I

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Speaker 1: haven't talked with Brad or Tyson about this, but maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe we can get them together and see um. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's the concept, you know. And of course there

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Speaker 1: are people who would say they object to that characterization,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, is it the perpetuation of

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Speaker 1: the stereotype and so on. But the but from what

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Speaker 1: I understand, yeah, Mickey O'Neill and Snatches is based on

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Speaker 1: Tyson Fury. There are inspired by and there's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of Um. I don't know if the timeline works out,

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Speaker 1: but there isn't Who who directed Snatch again, Guys Guy Ritchie,

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Speaker 1: Guy Ritchie. He's a boxing fan as well, so he

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Speaker 1: would have been aware of it. Absolutely. Yeah, And like

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Speaker 1: born in Bread, you know, British subject good points. So

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Speaker 1: this what also is weird here. I haven't watched the

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Speaker 1: Panorama documentary yet, Matt, but what's weird to me here

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Speaker 1: is that, yes, a ton of money moves through boxing.

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Speaker 1: Long time listeners, you know, we didn't agree with Brian

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Speaker 1: Towey on absolutely everything that he claims regarding sports and corruption.

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Speaker 1: But boxing is a hot historically at least a hot

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Speaker 1: bed of corruption, and it's an enormously um promising way

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Speaker 1: to launder dirty money. If you happen to be running

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Speaker 1: a criminal organization that makes north of one billion dollars

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Speaker 1: in terms of net worth, this, this will get you

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Speaker 1: a lot closer to having that money cleaned than say

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Speaker 1: a car wash or even selling you know, arguably even

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Speaker 1: selling even the high end art trade. Oh yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: I think we're forgetting about laser tag that you never

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Speaker 1: forget about la But before we we we need to

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Speaker 1: move on to the next thing. I just want to

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Speaker 1: put a couple of sources in your minds, so if

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Speaker 1: you want to read more you can. There is a

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Speaker 1: double in Live Dot i E article here. It's titled

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Speaker 1: Daniel Kinahan is a dangerous man who brings terror to

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Speaker 1: boxing world, says Barry mcginnon mc mc McKinnon, m c

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Speaker 1: g u I g A n mcgigan. I don't know. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: he's he's a famous person who I should know how

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Speaker 1: to pronounce their name. But you can look that up

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Speaker 1: on Double and Live. It's got some great reporting on this,

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Speaker 1: and also if you go to talk sport dot com,

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Speaker 1: you can read an entire rebuttal essentially from Daniel Kinahan himself,

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Speaker 1: where he takes all of these allegations that have been

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Speaker 1: hitting him for about fifteen years or you know, for

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Speaker 1: the allegations has been hitting for a long time. He

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Speaker 1: talks about his long connection to the sport of boxing.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting to see it to see um, a

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Speaker 1: PR statement like this put forward by someone that is

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Speaker 1: allegedly this big crime boss, because it if you're just

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Speaker 1: reading it, it doesn't feel like it's a crime boss,

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Speaker 1: and it just makes you go, Wow, the PR team

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Speaker 1: is really good. This guy's brilliant or something is going

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Speaker 1: on here. Uh, I don't know it. It feels like

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Speaker 1: a movie. It's just like what our emailer said, It

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Speaker 1: feels like a movie. And one thing I would add

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Speaker 1: that question we set up just a little bit earlier. Uh,

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Speaker 1: why are none of these charges sticking even though we

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Speaker 1: have these contradictory reports. You see that, you see that

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Speaker 1: article you mentioned map, but then you also see different

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Speaker 1: people in the boxing industry who are choosing to remain anonymous,

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Speaker 1: and they're they're outright saying like there's a great Insider

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Speaker 1: article about this. They're outright saying, yeah, Kinahan is our fixer.

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Speaker 1: When um Tyson Fury is talking about getting the deal

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Speaker 1: over the line, that may mean that Kinahan called some

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Speaker 1: people and told them to straighten up, you know, uh

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Speaker 1: or maybe maybe anywhere from verbally bullied them to maybe

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Speaker 1: a threat. I don't know. Yeah, if he really is

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Speaker 1: who he is, then just getting a call, right he's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is this is Dan. I need this to happen there, Okay,

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Speaker 1: ye cool, all right. Don't want guys with a dressed

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Speaker 1: like police officers coming into a World Boxing Organization match

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Speaker 1: at a hotel. Still just a it's just a phone

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Speaker 1: conversation that without having the explicit transcript of that. You know,

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Speaker 1: you have to be careful legally, but you you know,

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Speaker 1: one thing that doesn't help people who who are certain

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Speaker 1: that this man is a crime boss. One thing that

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Speaker 1: doesn't help as far as prosecuting him, is that he

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Speaker 1: no longer lives in Ireland. He like he for almost

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Speaker 1: a year now he's been living in Dubai, which which

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Speaker 1: is um a little bit expensive, you know, so it

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Speaker 1: does it would give prosecutor as a question about his income.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine, I hear they have a great mall

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Speaker 1: in Dubai. Bay is a great mall. It's like one

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Speaker 1: big giant living mall, isn't It's Dubai also a place

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Speaker 1: where like the rich and famous and potentially crooked kind

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Speaker 1: of kick it out of the prying eyes of a

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Speaker 1: law enforcement. That can be said about every every big

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Speaker 1: major of metropolitan city imagine. But Dubai for sure has that,

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Speaker 1: Like I've heard that before, right, because of the wealth,

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Speaker 1: the the opulence that that is that just is shown

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Speaker 1: on the streets and in the architecture and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm just like I've maybe more specifically like

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Speaker 1: people with the very luxurious and dare I say, hedonistic lifestyle,

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Speaker 1: just be careful. Cultural norms are very different, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: very very different in ways that could very different and

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Speaker 1: very strict. Actually many as many places in the world

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Speaker 1: are as I hope we have said before. Any time

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Speaker 1: you travel internationally, be very aware of the be very

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Speaker 1: aware of the laws and the moray's of the place

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Speaker 1: in which you move, and do not violate them. Because

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Speaker 1: if you go to a country that says they have

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Speaker 1: the death penalty for something that you would consider relatively minor,

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Speaker 1: like marijuana possession, the fact that you consider relatively minor

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Speaker 1: if you're from Denver, is not going to change their

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Speaker 1: decision that you should die. So be very aware of this.

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Speaker 1: Um your opinion in that matter is relatively minor, right right? Uh?

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Speaker 1: And I think a lot of it when we're talking

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Speaker 1: about high level operators, uh, in the in the gray

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Speaker 1: area with great financial power. Uh. A lot of the

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Speaker 1: concerns about where to be located trace back to extradition treaties.

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Speaker 1: That's why you see a lot of people that make

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Speaker 1: you You might think, Huh, that's weird. You're a billionaire,

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Speaker 1: why are you living in this place? I AM wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have ordinarily, aren't you more of a Monaco kind of dude? Right? Bro?

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Speaker 1: But they're they're living in those places for a reason. Now,

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Speaker 1: since nothing has been proven against Mr Kinahan, all they

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Speaker 1: can be said is that he is living a good

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Speaker 1: life in Dubai in what has been described multiple times

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Speaker 1: as a safe haven. Yeah, it's all. It's also a

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Speaker 1: tax haven. There's lots of loopholes in terms of taxes

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Speaker 1: on imports and exports. Uh, taxes on corporate profits and

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Speaker 1: capital gains. Corporate taxes in general are not a thing.

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Speaker 1: And there's also no customs to xays on goods that

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Speaker 1: you bring in or out of what they call free

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Speaker 1: zones there. Uh. That's you know, on the corporate level,

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Speaker 1: but there's also plenty of individual tax benefits as well.

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Speaker 1: So all right, so you know, let us know what

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Speaker 1: you think about Daniel Kinahan and boxing and what's going

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Speaker 1: on there, and let us know if you think Dan's

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Speaker 1: life has any similarities to Tommy Shelby. It feels like

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Speaker 1: there might be something there. It feels very similar to me,

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Speaker 1: but maybe I'm completely wrong. Let us know what you think.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back with another message from you, and

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00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: we're back more messages from you the public. Uh, that

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Speaker 1: is you the most important part of the show, as

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Speaker 1: Ben would say, Uh, and we all agree it's just

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Speaker 1: the truth. Uh. I have a voicemail I would like

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Speaker 1: to play for everyone. If that's all right, all right,

391
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: when this one comes from Chris and a concerned c

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Speaker 1: I a experiment with psychedelic and other drugs and also

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Speaker 1: a very famous bomber that we all know and love.

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Speaker 1: I mean that love. Here we go Chris again. I

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Speaker 1: swear I have an actual lifns you know. But I

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Speaker 1: was just sitting here drinking and thinking about your podcast.

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Speaker 1: You may have done this, I don't know, but just

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Speaker 1: a topic headline. Did MK Ultra make the unit bomber?

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Speaker 1: You can make an argument that it did. Kazinski was

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Speaker 1: definitely psychologically I don't want to say tortured, but yeah,

401
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: tortured um private company. Also, yeah, like the manifesto is

402
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: like it was written by anybody else in a little

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00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: less extreme it would be groundbreaking, important work. I think

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Speaker 1: Kazinski is a terrible person who shouldn't be laughtered as

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Speaker 1: a champion of of anything. But um, he's definitely no idiot.

406
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Speaker 1: I don't know what compelled him to blow people up anonymously.

407
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 1: It's the coward is terroristic act. And I am very

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Speaker 1: glad he is rutting away in a super Max and

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00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: Florence or terror hope. But um, yeah, maybe that's like

410
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: some some blowback from mk Ultra So yeah, thanks again. Um,

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Speaker 1: I work in the area tech i'd quality assurance um

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00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: um um from tin hat Looney who Yeah, I know

413
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: I called too much. Sorry, definitely never apologizing. Chris, thanks

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Speaker 1: for it, for the for the voicemail, and we believe

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Speaker 1: that you have a life, Chris. We do. We know

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Speaker 1: that this is only a small portion of it, and

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Speaker 1: we're lucky that you devoted it to us. UH and

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Speaker 1: bringing up this topic, which I think is super interesting.

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Speaker 1: There's apparently a lot of controversy around this Discovery Channel

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Speaker 1: documentary that came out about the UNI bomber a while back,

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Speaker 1: Um the Union bomber himself, Ted Kazynski, Theodore Kazinski wrote

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Speaker 1: a letter kind of debunking personally this notion that put

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Speaker 1: forth Uh in the documentary. This article from Deadline from

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Speaker 1: January seven, two thousand eighteen, headline retired FBI agent the

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Speaker 1: UNI Bomber and I agree TV series on him is

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Speaker 1: inaccurate and then so specifically referring to mk ultra, Um

427
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: Kazynski has this to say from several people have received

428
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: letters concerning that Discovery Channel series about me, and it's

429
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: clear from their letters that the Discovery series is even

430
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: worse than most of the other media stories about me.

431
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: In fact, the greater part of it is pure fiction.

432
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: Among other things they apparently passed on to their viewers

433
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: the tale that, through the agency of Harvard professor H. A.

434
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: Murray I was repeatedly tortured as part of the mk

435
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: Ultra mind control program conducted by the c i A.

436
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: UM as we all know, mk Ultra is programs is

437
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: not Kausnski speaking. Where as as like a kind of

438
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 1: a response to this notion that UM our enemies were

439
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: developing mind control drugs, uh, things like liquid th HC

440
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: and l s D and other you know, mind altering

441
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: substances were given to people, often anonymously or like basically

442
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: people were like dosed and they were observed, uh, and

443
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: to see how it would affect them. Or for example,

444
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: UM there is in their instances of people being dosed

445
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: with liquid t HC and then try to see how

446
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: loose their lips were. As as far as like you know, secrets,

447
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: agency secrets and things like that. UM there's a story

448
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: about one particular agent that was involved in this program

449
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: named George White, who dosed a mafia member with this

450
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: th HC by ejecting the cigarettes and got him to

451
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 1: get pretty loosey goosey about stuff that would have had

452
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: him killed as a member of you know, lo Cosa

453
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: nostra Um. So interesting stuff there. But yeah, back to Kazynski,

454
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: he says, the truth is and then the course of

455
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: the Murray study, there was one and only one unpleasant experience.

456
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: It lasted about half an hour, and I could not

457
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: have been described as torture, even in the loosest sense

458
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: of the word. Mostly the Murray Study consisted of interviews

459
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: and the filling out of pencil and paper personality tests.

460
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: The CIA was not involved. Uh, since people may find

461
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: it difficult to believe that the media would broadcast such

462
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: a conglomeration of outright lies, I'm sending you here with

463
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: a copy of an article by FBI agent Greg Stag

464
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: Scal in which Scal claims, for give me if I'm

465
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 1: mispronouncing that name, that Jay might be silent, that the

466
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: greater part of the Discovery series is fiction. Stas Kell's

467
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: purpose is to defend the honor of the FBI, not

468
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: to tell the truth about Ted Kazinski. In fact, not

469
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: all of his statements about me are strictly accurate. That's interesting,

470
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: but the fact that Discovery lied about the FBI investigation

471
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: should make it easier for people to believe that they

472
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: lied about me too. And it would appear that that

473
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: claim is specific to uh, the Discovery documentary series. There's

474
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: this great article in The Atlantic from two thousand, uh

475
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: talking about this experiments and going into detail about them,

476
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: and and you know, kind of making the uh, the

477
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: thesis that these could have um poisoned Kazinski against science,

478
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: which is something that you know he would write about

479
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: in his manifesto, but nowhere in this Atlantic piece doesn't

480
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: mention anything. My m k ultra feel it seems like

481
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: that's very specifically uh, something that this Discovery documentary seems

482
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: to have gotten wrong, at least according to you know,

483
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: Kazynski himself and someone you know with experience on the

484
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: matter from within the bureau. So what do you guys

485
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: think there was something that you've heard of before the

486
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: physical first? For me, Yeah, yeah, I've heard this pretty

487
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: often over the years. There's actually there's a podcast by

488
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: friend of the show Little Brilliante called Prodigy, which dives

489
00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: into a deep and really well done exploration of Kaczynski's

490
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: formative years because he was very young when he went

491
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: to Harvard. At the time of the Murray experiments, he

492
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: was only about seventeen years old. Uh. These were humiliation experiments.

493
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: I think I know where the conflation begins to at

494
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: least on the Discovery documentaries part. So the Murray experiments

495
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: are named after Henry Murray. Uh, and part of these experiments,

496
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: at very high level, were to quote evaluate and officers

497
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: candidacy for positions in the U. S. Military. The reason

498
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: people are maybe, uh maybe stringing some red string conspiracy

499
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: yarn between the MK Ultra CIA experiments and the Murray

500
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: experiments is that Murray himself worked for the OSS, the

501
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: Office of Strategic Services during World War Two, which a

502
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: lot of US will recognize as the predecessor of the

503
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: CIA here in the US. So maybe from that point,

504
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: I can see how it might be easy to confuse

505
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: the two. But the OSS is not the CIA, and

506
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: the fact that Murray worked for, uh, the OSS during

507
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: World War two does not necessarily mean, uh that that

508
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: narrative of the CIA financing this is correct, But there

509
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: is a there is a tantalizing thing here. There's another

510
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: podcast our network since I'm doing plugs. There's another podcast

511
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: our network called The Control Group, which is a dramatization

512
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: of um of the way some of these experiments occurred.

513
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: People who are conducting things related to im K ultra, academics, professors, researchers,

514
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: and so on may not have necessarily known where the

515
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: money was coming from, and they have been coming through

516
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: front groups. So it's also possible that there could have

517
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: been something that was later discovered to be part of

518
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: the overall genre of this kind of unethical experimentation. Uh,

519
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: and that it occurred without the knowledge of not just

520
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: the participants but the experimenters themselves. So but but you're right, well,

521
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: it's it is a very important uh distinction. So Kazynski

522
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: was in those uh Murray experiments which subjected people to

523
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: a lot of psychological stress. Uh. And again that's during

524
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: a formative year. But that's not the same thing as

525
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: sort of the c I a Monty Burn style ringing

526
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: its hands and saying build. But like this, UM, I mean,

527
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's an important distinction. It's

528
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: it's also I mean, what do you think it's It

529
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: feels to me that it is a pretty valid and

530
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: plausible argument to make that this this experience impacted someone

531
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: who already had a vulnar horble minds, But did it

532
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: cause them to perpetrate the acts that became the UNI Bomber.

533
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I think so. I think so.

534
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: I mean, let's let's let's let's say it was MK

535
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: ultra and uh, you know, and this was specifically being

536
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: dosed with LSD. I mean, I think something that we

537
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: we've seen. Anyone that's been around people that have you know,

538
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: experimented with psychedelics know that, you know, it brings out

539
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: stuff that's already kind of there. You know. It's the

540
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: same way like people that are drunk kind of you know,

541
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: just and they become like a more um extroverted version

542
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: of themselves. You know, are they like you know, go

543
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: a little further maybe with their thoughts or they they

544
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: take things a little further. But it's not like just

545
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: putting things in. It's not implanting you with ideas. The

546
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: ideas are already there. It just kind of like helps

547
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: bring them out a little more. So that's true of

548
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: of LSD and and a lot of drugs, stimulants or

549
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: what have you. So to me, the idea of like,

550
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: you know, we made me do it or I'll jealous,

551
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: d made me do it. That don't buy that because

552
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: to me, it's like it's something that's already latent within

553
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: you and that it can kind of just like bring out.

554
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: But I don't really buy into the idea that it

555
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: can create a monster. Um, but this is we're plugging things,

556
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: I'll say my heart. Uh there, I heard Original Slate

557
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: is coming out with a show at the end of

558
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: this month, I believe called Operation Midnight Climax. That's sort

559
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: of it's a nonfiction dramatization, I guess of the MK

560
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: culture experiments, specifically through the eyes and the lens of

561
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: this character George White, and I had the uh, the

562
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: pleasure of being able to narrate the thing. I've never

563
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,399
Speaker 1: really done that before. So that should be hitting your

564
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: feeds soon. And it's very well written, a really great

565
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: team behind that. So also beautifully sound designed by our

566
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: buddy Julian in New York. And uh yeah, check that

567
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: out if you if you want to hear a little

568
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: more of like kind of a inside you know, the

569
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 1: mind of someone that's actually doing the stuff and dosing

570
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: unsuspected people. With these drugs just to you know, see

571
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: what happens. I love that cup, Ben, Thank you all right?

572
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, dude, definitely listen to that show. It's gonna

573
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: be awesome. I can't wait to hear UM. Another thing

574
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: to bring up here. I don't I really didn't know

575
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: much about MK Ultra connected to Kazynski, but I am

576
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: fascinated with his timeline and his trajectory. And as you

577
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: guys have been talking about his some of his thoughts

578
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 1: and his manifesto, it's I mean, it's stuff that's worth

579
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: reading in some messed up way. Some of some of

580
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: the thoughts are very fascinating. Just as our our caller

581
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: Chris mentioned um the timeline with him also in the

582
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: late sixties there when he moves out to Berkeley after

583
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: he gets his degrees, you know, from from Harvard and

584
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: then Believe University of Michigan. He's out there in like

585
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 1: sixties seven, I think, and that's around the time when

586
00:35:55,239 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: officially the known Zodiac killings we're happening. Just put it

587
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: out there. Maybe there's even more to Kazinski than just

588
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: MK Ultra. Why not. There's a there's a series of

589
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: three books that you can read from an author we

590
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: met named Mark Hewitt. Mark Hewitt, that are all about

591
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: how Kazinski is the zodiac. Well, that's the thing where

592
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 1: you don't have I mean, as you know, Matt, from

593
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 1: some of your previous excellent work. That's the thing when

594
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 1: you when you don't have a lot of emergent evidence,

595
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: you're you're kind of the speculation thrives, right, and we

596
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: tend to look at concurrent events and see whether the

597
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: ostensibly unrelated may give us a new perspective on on

598
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: the the problem we are solving. So it doesn't seem

599
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: like his style though, right, which is the primary argument

600
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,919
Speaker 1: against it, well, or that one of the arguments Market

601
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: puts forward is that it evolved so in sixties Evan

602
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: again according to Mark, when he's in Berkeley as a

603
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: professor there right, which is right near uh Venetia and Valleo,

604
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: where the confirmed killings occurred in South San Francisco, is

605
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: just across a bridge he uh Allegedly, according to this author,

606
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: those killings were like he's beginning, he's warming up, essentially,

607
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: and then when things got too hot, he escaped to God.

608
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: I want to say Montana. I think it's Montana, Right,

609
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 1: is that isn't that where he ended up. That's where

610
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: he built a cabin um. He goes to Montana because

611
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: thesa get too hot in San Francisco in that area

612
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 1: for the zodiac and begins another version of a death campaign,

613
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: basically one I would want to hear from the listeners.

614
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: What do you think, folks? Yeah, well, I'd love to

615
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: know what you think. He's clearly a brilliant person, right.

616
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: You can't You can't go to Harvard to get a degree,

617
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: then go to the University of Michigan and get a

618
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: master's and doctorate in math and not be able to

619
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: put the is together very very well. There could be

620
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: some screwslous though, Yeah, no question about it. H Well,

621
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: I think it's time to take a quick pause for

622
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: another sponsor break and then come right back with some

623
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: more listener mail, And we are back for the final

624
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: installment of this week's listener Mail segment. This is maybe

625
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: not appropriate for everybody in the audience to date. It uh.

626
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: It details allegations of corruption in ongoing crime in Canada,

627
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: the kind of stuff that we have covered in previous

628
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: episodes on the Lost Highway. Previous episodes on things like

629
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 1: Unapprehended serial Killers, which unfortunately ended up being a three

630
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: part series. Uh So, without further ado, I'd like to

631
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: share this with you folks and then with my co

632
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: host and see what what everybody thinks here, because I've

633
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: been digging in and I'll be honest at this point.

634
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: Uh the situation seems disturbing. Hi, you can call me Violet.

635
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: I give permission to use my voice. I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada,

636
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: and we have a huge conspiracy regarding serial killers. The

637
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: first serial killer you should look into is Robert Pickton.

638
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: He owned a pig farm where he fed his victims

639
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: to his pigs, and then meet he sold in the

640
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 1: nineties may have contained human flesh. Currently, there's a ninety

641
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: plus page document that has been released with all of

642
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: the details, and it's currently trying to be suppressed by

643
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: the vp B and the r c MP. There's a

644
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: huge suspicion on the r c MP and VPD for

645
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: their involvement and they are presently attempting to destroy evidence

646
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: that they had any involvement in it. Talking out about

647
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: this has resulted in many people getting death threats, including

648
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: myself and other outspoken women. This is related to the

649
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: current situation where the police all over BC are ignoring

650
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: attempted kidnappings of women and children, and then a woman

651
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: from that city usually goes missing. They are all around

652
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 1: the same age, height and weight. They're mostly all white.

653
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 1: We have had a problem. You do currently still have

654
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: a problem NBC with missing and murdered murdered Indigenous women.

655
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,720
Speaker 1: And now women are standing up and demanding the RCMP

656
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,919
Speaker 1: take us seriously. They are ignoring us. They are dismissing

657
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: every single one of our claims. Women are being driven

658
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: off the road, women are being attempted to be snatched

659
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: from their vehicles. They the RCMP are refusing to help us.

660
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: Someone used to speak out and help the women of BC.

661
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: If you look into this, into the statistics of serial

662
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: killers in Canada, you will find none because Canada refuses

663
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: to release those documents. The RCMP already know that the

664
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: trucking routes in and out of BC are highly, highly

665
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: susceptible areas for kidnappings, and they still refused to do

666
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: anything about it. The r c MP are involved, The

667
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: r CMP are involved and or are protecting the people involved,

668
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: and this is frightening for all of us. There was

669
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: a child that was almost snatched on his way to

670
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 1: school two days ago on March second or third. This

671
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: is seriously, no serious. No one is taking us seriously.

672
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: No one is listening to us. We need your help.

673
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: Please please please talk about this on your show, because

674
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: we need more people to bring attention to this. We

675
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: need people to speak up for us because no one

676
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: is taking women seriously. Thank you very much for taking

677
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 1: the time to reach out to us, Violet. This is

678
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: this is profoundly disturbing. I mean, even if, even if

679
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: some of the incidents that violent mentions here turn out

680
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: to be things that are more easily explained, just the

681
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: experience of being a person in a community suffering from

682
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: this is um psychologically debilitating. So what I would like

683
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: to do is uh file, I'd like to walk through

684
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: some things that doubtlessly you are already well aware of,

685
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: but your fellow audience members may not be. First, I

686
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: want to verify that claim about serial killer collection data

687
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: in Canada. It is much more difficult to come by

688
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: than the serial murderer data in the US. So difficult

689
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: to come by that often when experts are looking into

690
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: statistics or attempting to build metrics for these kinds of

691
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: crimes in Canada. They use the US as a reference

692
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: in US. The US and Canada are similar in many ways,

693
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: but I would argue they're not similar enough for that

694
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 1: to be the basis of research on on Canada. That's

695
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: that's what I believe, and I think a lot of

696
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: people would agree here. So it is also true that

697
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: Indigenous women and girls, children are disproportionately targeted, not just

698
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: by what you'll call a serial killer, but also by

699
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: people who commit sexual assault, also by people who want

700
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: to waylay someone in an isolated area, maybe steal from them, uh,

701
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: mug them, rob them, et cetera. And we know that

702
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 1: there's there's a little better research oddly enough, well not

703
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: oddly enough, more towards the West coast because of the

704
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: Highway of Tears. We did an episode of that. That's

705
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 1: that stretch of Highway sixteen in northern BC where an

706
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 1: estimated the estimate alone is troubling, and estimated eighteen to

707
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: fifty mostly Indigenous women have gone missing or been found murdered.

708
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 1: Why is that troubling Because there's a hell of a

709
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 1: margin between eighteen and fifty, right, these are human lives. Uh.

710
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: And that also means that we're only seeing the ones

711
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: that were reported as of twenty nineteen. If you are

712
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: a listener in the US, then you don't live near

713
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: the Canadian border. You might be surprised to learn the

714
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: extent of the controversy here, because this has been an

715
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: ongoing argument. UH. Women's advocates such as Angela Marie McDougall,

716
00:44:54,440 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: executive director Battered Women's Support Services, is saying that the CMP,

717
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, by the way, um the

718
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: ones with the horses. She and others are arguing that

719
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: the RCMP is attempting to suppress the truth, suppressed eyewitness reports,

720
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: possibly as you said, Violet, also destroy evidence. McDougal specifically

721
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: points to the larger issue here, which is ongoing sexual

722
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: violence in that community, and she says, you know, validly,

723
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: I would argue that it's completely reasonable for people who

724
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 1: might be a victim of these crimes in the future

725
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: to not completely trust the system, to also have fear

726
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: that one day they may become one of those victims

727
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 1: they are currently fighting for now. UH. The police, McDougal says,

728
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: are investigating that, but they There's also this question of

729
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 1: whether whether social media is playing a role in this.

730
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: Like people like their videos, you can find they're being

731
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 1: shared on social media platforms Instagram, TikTok, all the hits

732
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: where people are noting not only is the rc MP

733
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: in their in their perspective, being dismissive of the original

734
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: claims on social media, but in addition to not investigating

735
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: these claims, they are also asking people to stop spreading

736
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: the videos. And you can imagine if you are someone

737
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: who fits the demographical possible victim here, that that sounds

738
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 1: very much like being ignored, right, very much like being

739
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: brushed aside and being that one person in the horror

740
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: movie who says there's a monster and then someone else

741
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: says it's only the wind. Uh. Horror movies are a perfect,

742
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: a perfect analogy for these kinds of situations when they're factual,

743
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: and also for situations ongoing abuse in relationships. Uh. And

744
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: I don't just mean romantic ones. Uh. The The thing though,

745
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: for the rcmpace part to catch people up here is uh.

746
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 1: Back in February, just last month, as we record this,

747
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: police came forward and said they reiterated, you need to

748
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: stop spreading these videos about missing women and alleged abduction

749
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: attempts because they are unproven rumors U, and these videos

750
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: do run the gamut if you see them, which you can,

751
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: you can find these uh to say that there might

752
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: be a serial killer of foot, that there might be

753
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 1: human trafficking occurring, and that uh, the authorities are either

754
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: well then again, it's not what we're saying, but this

755
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: is the argument and supportant to know. They're saying the

756
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: authorities are either incompetent, they're either dismissive, or they are

757
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: willfully in some way covering up. And if they're willfully

758
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 1: in some way covering it up, it means they might

759
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: be colluding and then also violently. You noted um possibilities

760
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: of retaliation, right, uh, which which I heard in their UM.

761
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: I'd like to just read a statement from a spokesperson

762
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: for the RCMP, one Michael mclahan, who said, quote, we

763
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: have an open mind, but so far there is no

764
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: evidence to support that any abduction attempt has actually happened.

765
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: If we see any real risk, we will let the

766
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: public know. In the meantime, we're asking you to stop

767
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: spreading unproven rumors. Uh these videos. By the way, the

768
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: frequency of these videos increased amid some high profile disappearances.

769
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: One Trina Hunt in Port Moody, forty eight years old,

770
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: vanished January. One Shaleene keeler Bell who was twenty three

771
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 1: year old, a mother who vanished January. So, with Mclawhan

772
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: and others in the r c MP, the danger here

773
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: is that they feel like there may be a public

774
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: panic spreading based on unfounded speculations and fear like people

775
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: drawing another line between situations that might be unrelated and

776
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: saying it's all part of a larger thing. Uh. And

777
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 1: then the RCMP specifically says they're they're worried that people

778
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 1: are encouraging one another to carry weapons on their person

779
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: as a result. Um. But but with this, with this

780
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: in mind, we we felt that this would be an

781
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: important thing to bring attention to because no matter what's

782
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: happening right now, unfortunately there is proven, there has proven

783
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: precedent of systemic um a systemic failure on the part

784
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 1: of some authorities to acknowledge these situations. In these trends.

785
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: We did discuss Robert picked in in the past. You

786
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: guys remember that, sure Robert Pickton man these uh pretty

787
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: brutal or he was very brutal. And the problem with that,

788
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: correct me if you've already mentioned this, Ben. But the

789
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: problem with that is that rumors were spreading about some

790
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: serial killer operating and I think it was mid to

791
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: late nineties maybe that there was a serial killer operating,

792
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 1: and then he didn't get picked up until decade or

793
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: so later. Um. And again it's it's that concept if

794
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: if only The concept is if only the police or

795
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 1: the RCMP or whoever would have listened to the people,

796
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: you know, saying and raising their hand and saying, hey,

797
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 1: there's something wrong here, something is going on. That's that's

798
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: the concept. The problem is with with police, you cannot

799
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: take action unless you've got some kind of evidence or

800
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: or connective tissue two crimes, right, I mean, you cannot

801
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: do it. You know. An't mean to speak for the officers.

802
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 1: There is in like the other they're doing the right

803
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: thing and warning people not to spread these kinds of videos.

804
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 1: But it is it's a tough thing. Like we talked

805
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: about in the show all the time. How do you

806
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: know your source if you've got somebody on TikTok telling you, yeah,

807
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: there are five disappearances that have just occurred, and maybe

808
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: you don't get all the info and it's very emotionally charged.

809
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: Maybe it's difficult to ascertain what is true and what

810
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: is being added to it, right like in that great

811
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: game of telephone that everyone has every time another story

812
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: is shared, Um, it's it's I would just say it's

813
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: difficult for police and you know who knows what's going

814
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 1: on there. I have no idea, um, but I just

815
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 1: would say it's in this tough place where I can't

816
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: imagine the police acting on social media videos and statements

817
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: like that unless you know people are reaching out directly

818
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: to the RCMP to make statements that could then be

819
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: acted upon, which is what they've asked people to do. Uh.

820
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 1: They have said, you know, please stop circulating videos if

821
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: if there's the proof of this. Uh, if you do

822
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 1: believe that you have been the victim of an adduction attempt,

823
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: or you believe you have witnessed one, please they're saying,

824
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: contact the RCMP directly, which is of course, you know,

825
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: that's that's what the normal process should be. The argument

826
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: on the other side, I would imagine is there will

827
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: be people saying I had to resort to the public

828
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: sphere because I did what I was supposed to do.

829
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 1: I tried to report, and I was ignored or people

830
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: are fearful as a as our caller stated that perhaps

831
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: there's a connection there between whoever's making the disappearances and

832
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: some some officer or officers. So I I understand that

833
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: while I may believe that's unlikely or hopefully at least unlikely,

834
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: and would encourage people to to continue attempting to reach

835
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: the authorities like that, um, it is that must be

836
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: a very scary situation. Yeah, exactly. And this compounded by

837
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,839
Speaker 1: statements from experts. There's a researcher I want to draw

838
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: attention to named Michael arn't Field, who was a criminologist

839
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 1: and serial killer researcher at Western University. He studies patterns

840
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: of homicide for something known as the Murder Accountability Project

841
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: here in the US, and he um he's one of

842
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 1: the people that I leaned into when I was looking

843
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: at the problem of getting correct and accurate data from

844
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:37,720
Speaker 1: from Canadian authorities. And he says, first off, he says

845
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: that from the West coast to what's called the Golden

846
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 1: Horseshoes surrounding Toronto, there's evidence to suggest that not one,

847
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 1: but multiple serial murderers are hunting and and targeting UH,

848
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 1: Indigenous women and children, and a couple of the things

849
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: he says in an interview that he had just a

850
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 1: little less than two years ago in twenty nineteen. He says,

851
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: we don't know for sure in Canada because no one

852
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 1: will give us the data, but for sure you would

853
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 1: see Edmonton up to Fort McMurray light up with indications

854
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: of homicides. That's already well established. And they also guesses

855
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,720
Speaker 1: you would see a higher instance from Manitoba to northern

856
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 1: Ontario and down to the Golden Horseshoe Greater Toronto area

857
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:27,720
Speaker 1: as well. And he says that one of the issues

858
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: is that murdered data in Canada is owned by something

859
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: called stats can all one word s T A T

860
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: S C A N and that this group decides rather

861
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: than experts who gets to know what, and says that

862
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 1: they control the narrative therefore on homicide. And you know,

863
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 1: you learned disturbing things with this, like the FBI's Highway

864
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: serial Killer initiative, which we had discussed UH in its

865
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: in its own episode in the past, really put the

866
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:04,280
Speaker 1: spot on the opportunity that people in the trucking industry

867
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: might have. And I'm not saying truckers specifically. I'm saying

868
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: in the industry living along those interstate routes. Uh, there

869
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: there's a troubling number of unexplained disappearances and deaths. So

870
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 1: the question is, is is there something we can learn

871
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: from there, from from that research that could be applied

872
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,359
Speaker 1: up north. Uh. The answer is yes, there's a lot

873
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: we could learn. But it would be our chances of

874
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: saving lives would be much higher if we had access

875
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: to the data from that country, you know, And and

876
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 1: it's a it's it's a dangerous thing, and it's you know,

877
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: it's very easy to sit here on this show and say, well,

878
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: just give the numbers to the people, give the numbers

879
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: to the experts, give transparency. Um, there may be intervening

880
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 1: variables or reasons that we're not aware of that prevent

881
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: or just incentivized stats can from doing this. But then again,

882
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 1: can you really blame people for going to social media

883
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,919
Speaker 1: if they're acting in good faith? Can you blame these

884
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,760
Speaker 1: people for trying to get the word out about something

885
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: that they think authorities are ignoring. I don't know if

886
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:23,359
Speaker 1: you can. I don't know if you should. I'll say it, Ben,

887
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 1: I'm speaking directly to you people who control the stats

888
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 1: of crime in Canada, get that stuff over to the

889
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 1: Murder Accountability Project. The folks over there, like you said,

890
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 1: Michael and h. Thomas Hargrove, all of the guys, they're like,

891
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 1: just give it to him. Let's see, let's see what happens.

892
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 1: They've been able to identify clusters like serial killer clusters

893
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 1: in other places in the world, and I think it

894
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: would be good to do that. There's another issue here.

895
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:57,879
Speaker 1: You know, we know methodology is um. Methodology is kind

896
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: of the silent melody that at us things right. And

897
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: this means, even though it's a poetic phrase, yeah, uh,

898
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: shout out to my old literature teachers. Even though it's

899
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: a poetic phrase, it describes a really important, possibly dangerous thing,

900
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 1: which is it's not just what's reported, it's how it's reported,

901
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: how it's how it's aggregated, and how it's categorized. So

902
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 1: consider this. This is a disturbing thing to leave with

903
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: to tell you that there there really is a great

904
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: possibility that there is something amiss. Stats can has disclosed

905
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 1: that the homicide rate for Indigenous women in Canada is

906
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: six times higher than the homicide rate for non Indigenous women, however, aren't.

907
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: Filled points out that too often Indigenous women are not

908
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: properly listed as murder victims. Instead, their deaths are characterized

909
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: as accidental death or suicide, or something known as death

910
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: by misadventure. You guys heard of that one. Oh yeah,

911
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: that's the one where you do something stupid, right, and

912
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: you're playing playing on the train tracks or something. It

913
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: could possibly describe things like drug overduces, for instance, or

914
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: maybe someone uh becomes inebriated and wanders out into the

915
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: elements and dies with exposure, things like that. It's it's

916
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: considered a somewhat anachronistic term. I would imagine that. I

917
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: think death by misadventure is a little victim blame me.

918
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: It's a little victim blame me. Uh yeah, I'll just

919
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 1: call it what it is now, misadvent. Yeah that's true.

920
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 1: But I mean that is not the point. Isn't it

921
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 1: meant to like imply that you were doing something, like

922
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: I said, kind of kind of not the smartest thing

923
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: in the world. Yeah, that's that's true. The real difference,

924
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 1: like what would be the difference between an accidental death

925
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 1: and death by misadventure. There's this strong implication that this

926
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: was something the victim knew was risky and its behavior

927
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: or activity that they engaged in despite being aware of

928
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: that risk, which I don't. That's not a phrase that

929
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: I am personally comfortable with ascribing to someone. You know. Um,

930
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 1: you know what made me uncomfortable? Ben rewatching the implication

931
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: clip from Always Sunny after we made that reference, Oh

932
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: my god, m And it's important. I think one thing

933
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: the writers of that show do so well is um

934
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 1: is depicting how often members of the general public just

935
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: accept that sort of behavior that's sort of you know

936
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: implication part where Max says, hang on, are you talking

937
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 1: about hurting these people? You know? Um? So this is

938
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 1: something that doesn't have an easy answer yet in my opinion,

939
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: and this is just my opinion. The first next step

940
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: is to release that data. And and if it can't,

941
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 1: if if there's a concern that it would be imaging

942
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 1: to an ongoing investigation to release that data publicly, just

943
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 1: a general uh John and Jane Blue Jeans of the Internet,

944
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: then fine, do do like my pal Matt said and

945
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 1: send it to expert researchers, right, send it, Send it

946
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: out in such a way that it can be used

947
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 1: and that it can be used in a preventative or

948
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 1: predictive manner. Um. You know, there are far fewer serial

949
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: killers quote unquote out there in the world than perhaps

950
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 1: true crime documentaries would have us believe. But the fact

951
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 1: of the matter is they are real, you know what

952
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:47,959
Speaker 1: I mean, It's not just the wind. And if even one,

953
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:50,440
Speaker 1: if even one killer could be brought down, if one

954
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: life could be saved, then it's you know, uh not

955
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 1: not to quote Emily Dickinson, but it is worth it.

956
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 1: At that point, wouldn't you say, like, what price could

957
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: you put on that investigation? Right? The success of that?

958
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: I Uh, I am having a hard time squaring or

959
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 1: understanding why this data isn't being collected, why it isn't

960
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: being disseminated more widely, um, and perhaps you know, perhaps

961
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 1: that is due to concerns that releasing this to the

962
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 1: public might mean that a murderer is able to see

963
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 1: it too and then adapt their behavior accordingly. But then,

964
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: you know, one thing that we never hesitate to point

965
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:35,919
Speaker 1: out we're talking about serial murders is that they are

966
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: going to tend to be below average intelligence. They are

967
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: not clever people, uh most often and this I know

968
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: this contradicts the Hannibal lecter Kemper kind of things. But

969
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 1: the reason those characters in fiction or fact are considered

970
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 1: somewhat remarkable is because they are bucking a trend. Like

971
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: these people are not. They're not clever, they're not special,

972
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 1: They're just monsters. These criminals, if they exist, can be

973
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 1: found with traditional investigation methods and using the information that

974
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: stat can appears to possess in some regard, So we're

975
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: hoping that more data is released. Um, you know, I understand.

976
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: I think we can all understand the importance of spreading

977
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 1: word when you feel like conventional channels aren't working. But

978
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 1: then you can also understand maybe the position of law

979
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 1: enforcement when they say we shouldn't or people shouldn't be

980
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 1: propagating these videos. But the best way to stop those

981
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 1: videos from being propagated is to um have dialogue with

982
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: the public and to let people know that you are

983
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 1: investigating these things, and maybe to ask yourself as an organization,

984
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 1: why do people feel like you're not where's the disconnect?

985
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 1: And it's a great point. Well it's the point where

986
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 1: our show ends today. We want to hear from you.

987
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to everybody who wrote who called in.

988
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: We want to know your take, M k Ultra c

989
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 1: i A. How closely related were they to the creation

990
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: of Ted Kaczynski's mental state? Let us know. We want

991
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 1: to know your experiences with organized crime and boxing or

992
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 1: sports in general. If you live in Dubai, tell us

993
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 1: if you uh, tell us if you know any high

994
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: class crime lords, just in advance before we decide whether

995
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: or not we're going to do a tour there. Uh.

996
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:46,439
Speaker 1: And then of course, if you live in Canada, either

997
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 1: on the law enforcement side or if you live in

998
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 1: the area the violence talking about, please let us know

999
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 1: your take. Would love to hear from you. We try

1000
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 1: to make it easy to find us on the internet.

1001
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 1: That's right. You can find us on the usual social

1002
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 1: media locations of choice. Of note, you can find us

1003
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Facebook where we are conspiracy stuff, conspiracy

1004
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: stuff show on Instagram. Why not do yourself a solid

1005
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 1: and join the Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy,

1006
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 1: because that's where it gets crazy and you want it

1007
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: on that you know you do, that's right. And if

1008
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 1: you do not like Facebook tracking you and all the

1009
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 1: stuff you do online, we understand. Why not give us

1010
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: a phone call pick that thing? Up that you always

1011
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 1: are using your thumb on and use your mouth on it. Sorry,

1012
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: um call one eight three three st d w y

1013
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 1: t K. Leave a message after you hear Ben's voice

1014
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 1: in that theme song that you love I know you do.

1015
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 1: What's the where's is the is the pizza guy here?

1016
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 1: I don't understand and debunk that one. It will been

1017
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: along with a visual on the on the video and

1018
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 1: then just stayed in. The pizza guy always delivered the

1019
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. I think that

1020
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: was the trope. I'm not sure. Yeah, when you do call,

1021
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 1: please leave your name whatever you want us to call you,

1022
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: that's important, doesn't have to be your real name. Just

1023
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 1: what should we call you? Let us know if you're

1024
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:10,439
Speaker 1: cool of us using your message on the air, then

1025
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 1: leave your message. When you leave it, please keep it

1026
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 1: as distinct as possible, and try and do it in

1027
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 1: one shot, one voicemail and then if you you know,

1028
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 1: if you feel like you're gonna have to call back

1029
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 1: a whole bunch more times or you've got way too

1030
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 1: much story, we'd recommend you please please please send that

1031
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 1: via email. It'll be much easier for us to process

1032
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 1: and it will increase your chances that we get to

1033
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 1: discuss it on the show. That email, by the way,

1034
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:55,440
Speaker 1: is conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff they

1035
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 1: Don't want you to know is a production of I

1036
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:00,560
Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit

1037
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1038
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.