1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and forty four, 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: which is airing in early April of twenty twenty two. 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: I will be interviewing Oliver Berkman, who is the author 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: of four Thousand Weeks Time Management for Mortals. I know 14 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: many of our listeners have read it, and probably many 15 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: more should read it because it's a great book where 16 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: he talks about the philosophy of how it changes how 17 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: you live when you truly recognize that you are to 18 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: live that long in the grand scheme of things, when 19 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: it comes to the universe, you know. So four thousand Weeks, 20 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: for those who are wondering, is roughly a human life span. 21 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: In one of my books a great many years ago, 22 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: I ran a number as like eight hundred thousand years. 23 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: I think I was being a little bit more generous, 24 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: but Oliver said he wanted to choose around number two. 25 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: But yeah, so, Sarah, we have spent many of those 26 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: four thousand weeks. Well, we've only had about two thousand 27 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: of them now at this point, I guess with children. 28 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: So you guys, your family is celebrating something special today. Yes, 29 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: I guess we're almost at five hundred and twenty weeks 30 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: fifty two times ten, to put it mildly. Yes, this 31 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: episode actually airs on Adaml's tenth birthday, which is kind 32 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: of a milestone, maybe just as much for me as 33 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: it is, well, okay, for both of us. Certainly a 34 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: very large milestone to turn double digits after you've been 35 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: a little kid for so many years. But since she 36 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: is my first child, it is also my tenth anniversary 37 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: of being a parent and a mother, and so that 38 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: is like really interesting to think about in terms of, 39 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: you know, what fraction of my life that is, and 40 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: how much time I have left with her, likely in 41 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: our home. I mean, anything could happen, but if she 42 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: follows the traditional timeline of eighteen years or so at home, 43 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: then we are well more than halfway through, which is 44 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: kind of scary. Well, you know, time does pass. It 45 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: just keeps passing. It's true. Yeah, no, I think of 46 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: that too, that your oldest child's birthday is your anniversary 47 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: of parenthood as well. I mean even obviously though you 48 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: probably felt that way coming into it nine months before, 49 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: but it is definitely a different thing once you actually 50 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 1: have the kid there, and it is hard to sort 51 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: of think about life before that. I mean, I have 52 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: a great many memories of more than about fifteen years ago, 53 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: but it does wind up being a very dominant thing 54 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: in your life. Then after it becomes comes the case 55 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: speaking of time and our perception of time, which I 56 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: guess you think about a lot. But you know, like 57 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 1: that very common trope where parents will be like, oh, 58 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: they're so cute, I just want to freeze time, Like 59 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: don't you hear that a lot? I feel like I 60 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: hear that a lot. You're looking at me like no, 61 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: but I feel like I have a lot of friends, 62 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: which is like no, just that I disagree that we 63 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: need to freeze time with Okay, that was the reason 64 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: for the look that makes more sense. Yes, no, me too. 65 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: I've always been like slightly envious of people who say that, 66 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: but also dubious at the same time, like really you 67 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: want to freeze time when you still have to change 68 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: diapers and like your kid can't talk to you yet, 69 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: and like, I don't know, I mean, listen to those 70 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: baby years are very very sweet, and they're very very 71 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: sweet in the memory. But if I was going to 72 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: freeze the time, it would be more like now or 73 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: maybe like, yeah, now would be good because that's a 74 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: good time. I mean, you've got you know, three school 75 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: aged roughly children, I mean, Genevieve's in school most of 76 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: the you know, more or less now too, and everyone's 77 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: out of diapers. Everyone's talking to you is reasonably rational, 78 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: but is not necessarily at the you know, crashing the 79 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: car into the neighbor's garage stage yet either. So it's 80 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: it's it's pretty much a sweet spot. It is a 81 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: sweet spot. But unfortunately, there is no freeze button or 82 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: fast forward button for that matter, whether you're happy with 83 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: your stage, no rewind button. Yes, there is nothing on 84 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: this DVR player of life. Yeah, I mean I've been 85 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: as of this April. I have been tracking time for 86 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: seven years consecutively, you know, continuously, which is approximately. I 87 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: said it was three hundred and sixty four weeks, and 88 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: then I realized it's actually more like three hundred and 89 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: sixty five weeks, because a year has a little bit 90 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: there's like a little hangover on the three sixty five 91 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: and the number of weeks. It's it's like fifty two 92 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: point twenty nine weeks in a year anyway, So it's 93 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: somewhere between three hundred sixty five and three hundred and 94 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: sixty six weeks. But it is a reasonable unk of 95 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: my four thousand, or maybe forty five hundred, if you know. 96 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: We like to have slightly longer lifespans anticipated. But it's 97 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: funny to think that I know where all that time went. 98 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: I like the optimism, and yes, that is funny to 99 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: know that. Yeah, well, oli Our wrote four thousand weeks. 100 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: I mean, just to talk about the philosophy of how 101 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: we spend our time, how acknowledging our finitude can change things. 102 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: I love that word. The finitude in the universe is 103 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: around for billions of years. We get four thousand weeks. 104 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: All of humanity, indeed, is not actually going to be 105 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: that long, which is sort of funny when people talk 106 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: about you know, one of the things he talks about 107 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: in his book is all these sort of Silicon Valley 108 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: tech bros talking about how they're going to make a 109 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: dent in the universe. It's like, you are not making 110 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: a dent in the universe no matter what you do. Like, 111 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the most important person on the 112 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: planet isn't probably making a dent in the universe as 113 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: it goes. But you know, on some level that's kind 114 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: of liberating because because if you realize you aren't making 115 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: a dent in the universe, maybe you can be more 116 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: cheerful about your own experience of time, making a dent 117 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: in your own satisfaction, making a dent in your own 118 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: ability to make life more comfortable or cheerful for someone 119 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: else than that certainly counts to a different sort of 120 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: dent in the universe, but probably a good one all 121 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: the less. So anyway, lots of food for thought. We 122 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: encourage you to check out his book, and I will 123 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 1: go right into the interview section with Oliver Well. Sarah 124 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: and I are delighted to welcome Oliver Berkman to the program. Oliver, 125 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: can you introduce yourself to our listeners. Sure. I'm an 126 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: author and a journalist. I most recently wrote a book 127 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: called four Thousand Weeks, Time Management for Mortals. Before that 128 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: the book called The Antidote Happiness for people who can't 129 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: stand Positive Thinking. I've sort of written in a journalistic 130 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: context for many years now on I guess, self help, productivity, 131 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: time management, science of happiness, all that stuff. Lived in 132 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: New York for many years. But now speaking to you 133 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: from northern England excellent. And as part of writing these 134 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: books on productivity, you tested out a great many productivity 135 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: books over the years. Indeed, you describe yourself as something 136 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: of a recovering productivity geek. Can you talk a little 137 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: bit about that? Sure? Yes, I mean right. I mean 138 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: one of the things I did was to write this 139 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: weekly column for The Guardian and it was a great opportunity. 140 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: I'm incredibly glad that I got to do it, but 141 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: it was also slightly enabling of a sort of troublesome 142 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: tendency in me. I'll be interested to know if you 143 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: feel like you ever had a similar tendency, which is 144 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: a sort of great interest in trying to find the 145 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: perfect way to organize my time and to sort of 146 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: cram the most in or at least never have to 147 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: disappoint anybody or drop any balls or anything like that. 148 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: That I sort of came to feel in the end, 149 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, not entirely healthy, motivated by a desire 150 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: to avoid certain truths about life, and about maybe my 151 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: life in my particular case. So, yeah, one of the 152 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: things I have done is is try out many, many, 153 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: many different techniques with this hope that one of them, 154 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: or one combination of them is going to I don't know, 155 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: be my existential salvation or something and make everything all right. 156 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 1: And yet it became clear to you that you still 157 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: had only four thousand weeks to live. That is where 158 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: we get to the title of that. It's funny because 159 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: I actually did the math in hours one of my 160 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: books several years ago, and I think I gave myself 161 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: a wee bit more generous. It was more like eight 162 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: hundred thousand hours. I guess I was planning to live 163 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: to ninety. Yeah, well I am. I totally plead guilty 164 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: to choosing an age that turns into a round number. So, 165 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: and as I make clear in the book, obviously with 166 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: luck many most people reading it will get it. We'll 167 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: get a few more than that. But yeah, it's all 168 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: shockingly finite. It is. It is very finite. And you 169 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: wrote your book that it grew painfully clear that the 170 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: things I got done most diligently were the unimportant ones. Well, 171 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: the important ones got postponed. I mean, why is that, 172 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: when when one is trying to organize life and time, 173 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: that that seems to happen. Well, I mean, in my experience, 174 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: I think the down at the ground level answer is 175 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: simply that, you know, you tell yourself that you need 176 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: real time and focus in order to turn to the 177 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: things that really matter, you know, community. I give the 178 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: example in the book of like doing research for an 179 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: article when I worked as a journalist. There's the sort 180 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: of quick stuff you do, and then there's the slow 181 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: burn things you're sort of doing off your own initiative 182 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: that might make a difference to your career in a 183 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: significant way. And it's the latter that you tell yourself 184 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: you really need time, attention, You need to have all 185 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: this other stuff off your plate. You need the decks 186 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: to be clear, and of course the decks are never clear, 187 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: and in fact, the effort to try to clear them 188 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: often makes them fill up again faster, and so you 189 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: systematically don't get around to the things that you tell 190 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: yourself you really need the time for because you have 191 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: set this standard of needing to get everything out of 192 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: the way. I guess, at a deeper level, because I 193 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: do try to sort of tile this in all through 194 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: the book to the philosophical level, I think that you know, 195 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: we mainly exist in this situation of deep denial about 196 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: what it is to be a finite human being with 197 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: limited time, limited control. And so there's something very comforting 198 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: about putting off to later the things that really matter, 199 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: that the feeling that like real life is going to 200 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: be in a few months time, when I've got all 201 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: this stuff dealt with, because you know, it has this 202 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: quality of timelessness to it. It's this idea that there's 203 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: always going to be more time, and that at some 204 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: point in the future you'll get your life in working 205 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: order and you'll do it right. And it's only a 206 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: provisional state now that you've got to be, you know, 207 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: managing all this chaos and these obligations that you didn't choose. 208 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: It's very it's very alluring to want to sort of 209 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: hold onto that vision that it's not going to be 210 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: like that one day, and then eventually the future keeps 211 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: coming and we run out of time. So you talk 212 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: about the art of creative neglect, that one way you 213 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: learned to deal with this, or in the process of 214 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: learn I guess we're always a work in process, but 215 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: that there are certain things you just decide not to 216 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: do or to limit. How many works you have in 217 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: progress at any given time. How does this sort of 218 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: change your mindset as you go about your work. I mean, 219 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: I have, to the extent that I've managed to put 220 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: this into practice, I've found it extraordinary. It isn't There's 221 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: an interesting distinction here. I think it isn't about deciding 222 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: to neglect a whole lot of tasks in order to 223 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: focus on a few. It's about recognizing the truth that 224 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: you always are doing this anyway, and deciding to do 225 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: it more consciously. I think that one of the things 226 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: we don't like to admit about being limited humans is 227 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: that we are always neglecting a thousand things in order 228 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: to focus on any one thing. And if you do 229 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: that unconsciously, what tends to happen as you get your 230 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: attention gets dissipated between them all you're trying to sort 231 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: of you're spreading yourself too thin. You don't actually make 232 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: progress on any one thing because whenever one thing gets difficult, 233 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: you just bounce off to the next. And I have 234 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: really benefited from a sort of conscious approach that says okay, 235 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: and this didn't happened a different levels, whether you're talking 236 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: about the number of things you'll do in a day 237 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: or the number of major projects you're going to have 238 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: on the go at a given time, but just saying okay, 239 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to focus on these three things for now, 240 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: and I'm going to make all the other ones wait 241 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: outside the door until I've done these things. And that 242 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: triggers real anxiety, because that's the anxiety, you know, of 243 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: confronting your limited power to do things. It's saying, look, 244 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: you know it would be great to really get a 245 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: move on with this or that project at work or 246 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: at home. I'm going to still all the same not 247 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: do that for now, because I know that that's what 248 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: I need to do in order to take this one 249 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: on and to complete this one first. So you know, 250 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: there are many many different ways of implementing this in practice, 251 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: But what I've found is that it, apart from any else, 252 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: it just you just actually get more of the important 253 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: things done at a faster tempo. The reward for being 254 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: willing to tolerate this anxiety of leaving things undone is 255 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: that is that you do make much swifter progress on 256 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 1: the things you focus on, and then gradually, over the 257 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: long term, you begin to see that you've accomplished significantly 258 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: more than you would have done had you tried to 259 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: sort of do all those things at once. In some ways, 260 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: this is just the time honored wisdom that you know, 261 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: most approaches to multitasking don't work. But I think it's 262 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: interesting to see why. Which is this idea that actually 263 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: keeping a hand in twenty five projects at once. What 264 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: that's doing is that, I think, I argue, is serving 265 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: an emotional purpose of making you feel in control, rather 266 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: than serving the purpose of actually giving time and attention 267 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: to things that you want to accomplish. Yeah, we just 268 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: need to make mindful choices. My catch phrase is always 269 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: that expectations are infinite, time is finite. We are always choosing, 270 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: so choose well right right right. And there's something I mean. 271 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: I think it was probably an offhand remark in one 272 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: of your books, and I don't remember where it was, 273 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: but you might not have even been in one of 274 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: your books. But something that I call you saying about 275 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: people telling your mother's telling you, I guess specifically that 276 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: they they can't relax until all the toys are tidied away, 277 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: a little bit of tough love from you, as I 278 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: recall saying, well, now actually can. And I think that 279 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: this speaks to the same idea. Right, maybe it is 280 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: possible every single day to tidy up all the toys 281 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: and get them back to a state of perfect tidiness. 282 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: But as soon as you expand that beyond the one 283 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: issue of toys to a whole life, all the things 284 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: you're doing every day, Like if you postpone the part 285 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: where you relax to the point to the place where 286 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: everything is squared away and everything is cleaned up and 287 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: all the loose ends are tied up, then you'll be 288 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: postponing it forever. Because it is in the nature of 289 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: our lives, especially today, that that supply of open loops 290 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: to close, or things on the deck to clear away, 291 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: whatever choose your metaphor, it's in the nature of our 292 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: lives that those things are effectively infinite. So if you 293 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: put off the real stuff until that's done, you'll never 294 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: get to it. Yeap, and the toy us come out 295 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: again the next morning. So where if you'll never get 296 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: that hour back? All right, Well we're gonna take a 297 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: quick ad break and I'll be right back with Oliver Berkman. Well, 298 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: I am here with Oliver Berkman talking about his book 299 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: four Thousand Weeks, which is time management for mortals. It 300 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: turns out that all of us are mortal, much as 301 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: we try to deny it. Although one thing that can 302 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: bring that into sharper focus is of course having children. 303 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: Now I'm curious, Oliver, your your child is relatively young, right, Yeah, 304 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: he's five now, he was born after I am initially 305 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: sold the proposal for this book, which tells you how 306 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: long it took me to write the book. I say, 307 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: becoming a father slightly, slightly get in the way of 308 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: the of the book deadlines. Yeah, yes, children, children will 309 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: do that on occasion. So, Oliver, one thing that can 310 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: change how we think about our mortality and time and 311 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: all that is becoming a parent. And so your child, 312 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: I think, is relatively young. So I wonder if you 313 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: could talk a little bit about how being a parent 314 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: has changed how you think about time. I know it's 315 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: certainly changed how I spend my time, but I'm curious 316 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: how it has changed how you think about your time. Yeah, 317 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: he's five now, he was not born when I first 318 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: submitted the proposal for this book, which tells you something 319 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: about how long it took me to write, and parenting 320 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: will have that effect on book deadlines. But I think 321 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: that what it really the real sort of change for 322 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: me was in the unignorability of both the one's limited time, 323 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: how little time there is, and also making it unignorable 324 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: that the value and the meaning of life has to 325 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,719 Speaker 1: at some point be found in present moments if it's 326 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: to be found at all. So, you know, I think 327 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: this is all true for people who are not parents 328 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: or who no longer are the parents have small children. 329 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: But I just think it's really easy to see when 330 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: you're the parent of a small child. Firstly, that you're 331 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: going to have to make decisions every day about what 332 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: matters enough to spend time on, because there are not 333 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: going to be the extra pockets of time to sort 334 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: of work on some nice to have work project that 335 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: isn't that important, but kind of you're going to do 336 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: it anyway. And then secondly, because small children change so 337 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: incredibly fast that if you're going to be present for 338 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: that childhood, you are going to have to come out 339 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: of that mindset that is always deferring value to the future, 340 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: which is especially hard in the set for the reason 341 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: that you know, naturally, and especially under the influence of 342 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 1: lots of parenting advice and parenting books and stuff, we're 343 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: naturally led to focus on the future and to see 344 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,959 Speaker 1: parenting as the task of trying to create successful adults 345 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: in the future. And you know there's a role for that, 346 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: but I think you really it really makes it clear 347 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: how absurd it is to get into a mindset where 348 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: that is all you are doing, because you just wish 349 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: your actual life and your actual relationship with an actual 350 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: child away. If you get too deeply entrenched in that mindset, yeah, 351 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the reasons I think probably there 352 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: is sometimes a future focus is that, especially in many 353 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: of the moments with small kids can be a wee 354 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: bit tedious, sometimes unpleasant and boring. There's certainly many wonderful ones, 355 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: and they can come interspersed with the horrendous ones, such 356 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: as you get a big, you know, hug and kiss, 357 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: and then the child is biting you like a few 358 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: seconds later. Or we just lived through the stomach bug 359 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: hitting fasehold with five children, that is quite something to 360 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: watch it work its way through five children's systems. So 361 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: I'm curious how we should think about these moments. I mean, 362 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: when we know that our time is so limited, you know, 363 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: we have four thousand weeks, and here we are spending 364 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: these long hours doing laundry and getting bitten by toddlers, 365 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like that could almost be depressing. 366 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: So I wonder how we should choose to think about that. Yeah, 367 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting. I mean, I think there's 368 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: a point I want to make, which is sort of 369 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: about the ideal to aspire to, and then I want 370 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: to very hastily qualify and say that I don't think 371 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: I come anywhere near to that ideal. And I also 372 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: do think despite the marvelously galitarian households that I am 373 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: part of, I'm sure it does ultimately still always fall 374 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: or largely often fall harder on mothers than fathers. But 375 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: with those caveats in mind, I do think that a 376 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: big part of what makes an experience boring or tedious. 377 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: Is this way that we bring to it certain kinds 378 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: of demands that make it boring when it didn't need 379 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: to be right. There's a sense in which if the 380 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: more that you need your experience to go a certain way, 381 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: the more that you need to feel like you're controlling 382 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: your time. And that is a big theme underlying my book. 383 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: I accept that it may partly be me talking about 384 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: my own neurotic needs, but I think it's pretty widespread. 385 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: The more that you think you need to control your time, 386 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: the harder it is to be in that situation of 387 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, well, this just needs to be done right now, 388 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: and these are just the demands that are absolutely obligatory. 389 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: There's no room for maneuver, there's no room for sort 390 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: of creativity in a sense, because it's just what needs 391 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: to be done. But I do think that the more 392 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: that we sort of see the truth about the finite 393 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: nature of our lives and our relationships with our children 394 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: at any given age not going to be that age 395 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: for long, firstly, it's possible to find more value in 396 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: those moments. But secondly, I'm not actually saying I think 397 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: everyone should manage to find sort of then like transcendence 398 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: in changing diapers or something. I just think that there 399 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: is a kind of a piece that you can come 400 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: to with it. It's not about necessarily not finding it boring, 401 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: but I've thought of it as the sense that like 402 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: you're in the right place, you know what I mean. 403 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: There's kind of a there's a sense that that when 404 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: you have these when you're clear about how being finite 405 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: as a human works and the way that these moments 406 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: don't last, there is a sense in which you can, 407 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: even if you're not enjoying the chore that you have 408 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: to do at that moment, there's a sense in which 409 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: you can find it meaningful because it is the right 410 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: thing for you to be doing right now at that moment. 411 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: I don't know if that speaks to your question, but 412 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: those are moments always good to say well, this is 413 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: where I am, this is where I am, and this 414 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: is where I should be. That that can help with things, 415 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: even if where you are is a changing sheets. Again, 416 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: so we let's talk about where we should be right now. 417 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: And it's sort of a more literal sense because we 418 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: want to talk about planning. So two aspects of this, 419 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: because you have a whole chapter on I wouldn't say 420 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: the futility of planning, but the caveats involved in planning. 421 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: So first, I'd love for you to talk about what 422 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: your planning process looks like now in terms of making 423 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: sure you are devoting time to the things that you 424 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: wish to be devoting time to. And then you know, 425 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: how we can find sort of the happy medium between 426 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: knowing that on some level life is unpredictable, unknowable the 427 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: future and all that. But on the other hand, you 428 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: know you might have a book deadline in a year 429 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,479 Speaker 1: and have to or get to that, and you know, 430 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: if you have kids who needs to be picked up 431 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: at certain places at certain times, you'd like to have 432 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: somebody there to have that happen. So how we find 433 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: the happy medium in making planning work with that? Yeah? Absolutely, 434 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: I love this topic. I mean partly because I have 435 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: spent a long time trying to sort of exert total 436 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: control over my day and then finding every single day 437 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: that that is thwarted by reality, and somehow not learning 438 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: for a very long time that this was not going 439 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: to suddenly magically start working. I think, you know, it's 440 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: possible to see this as a compromise position, this idea 441 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: that we need to sort of plan, but hold our 442 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: plans loosely. I think it's a bit deeper, maybe though, 443 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: than just a compromise. It's something like seeing what a 444 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: plan really is. I quote in the book the Meditation 445 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: teacher Joseph Goldstein who says, we forget that a plan 446 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: is just a thought, right, that we forget the present 447 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: moment nature of a plan. If you sit down with 448 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: your notebook planner at I don't know, seven eight o'clock 449 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: in the morning and try to plan the day, whether 450 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: you do it in a very detailed way or a 451 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: very loose way, and same would apply to monthly quarterly planning, 452 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: you're not actually exerting some kind of control over the 453 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: future in some magical fashion. You're coming up with a 454 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: statement of your present moment intent that can serve as 455 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: a really useful navigational tool for some future present moments, 456 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, later in the day, when it's a question 457 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: of trying to decide what to do or figure out 458 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: what to do next. So I think that's the really 459 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: important point, because once you see that you can't use 460 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: a plan to control the future, you can use it 461 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: only to sort of set an intention, and then in 462 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: each moment, do what you can to realize that intention. 463 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: It means that you're not sort of living with that 464 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: anxiety of waiting to see if reality is going to 465 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: line up to your plan. It means that you're not 466 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: you don't consider it automatically a failure if the day 467 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: goes in a radically different way. And one of the 468 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: things working from home now, one of the things I've 469 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: had to come to grips with is the fact that 470 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: I did have approaches to planning whereby if it wasn't 471 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: my turn to be hanging out after school with our 472 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: son and he burst into the room and wanted to 473 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: excitedly tell me for fifteen minutes the plot of a 474 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: book he'd been reading at school, or something like that, 475 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: I had come up with a planning system that define 476 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: that as something going wrong with the day, which is 477 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: that's bad. Like you know, there are contexts where it 478 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: might be something going wrong. If I'm on an urgent deadline, 479 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: that really really matters. Sure, but you don't want to 480 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: have such rigidity. It's definitely something that I have historically 481 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: been prone to. You don't want to have so much 482 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: rigidity in your planning that it automatically causes such a 483 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: wonderful positive development in your day to be seen as 484 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: a negative one. I'm very conscious, talking to a parent 485 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: of five children, that this may be radically, this may 486 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: get exponentially more complicated. We'venaty got one chilt. But so anyway, 487 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: the way I try to sort of live by this 488 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: approach now is I wrote about this recently my email 489 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: newsletter acts an approach that I because everything's got to 490 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: have a name, I call to myself anyway, the three 491 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: three three method where I try to do in the 492 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: course of a day, you know, about three hours on 493 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 1: my most important current project, three other shorter tasks, perhaps 494 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: ones that I've been avoiding or that are urgent, and 495 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: then three kind of maintenance activities, which could be anything 496 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: from kind of healthy habits like writing morning pages or 497 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 1: walking as I do try to do for an hour 498 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: out here in the country, or things just like processing 499 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: my inbox. And so I don't think the details of 500 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: this particularly matter, and I don't think the three is 501 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: necessarily matter either. The point that I'm trying to get 502 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: at with this is that it's it's a very low 503 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: set of goals relative to the discretionary time I have 504 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: on a good day, this might take more and a 505 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: half or five hours, and on a good day I 506 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: might have seven or eight hours to be playing with 507 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: when it comes to So there's that relationship is important 508 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: to me to have that, to have it be a 509 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: smaller plan than the day allows, and then you know, 510 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: when I only have three or four hours, I'm making 511 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: it an appropriately even smaller plan. And also that it 512 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: does not make any attempt to be comprehensive to try 513 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: to get to all the things that I think need doing, 514 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: because when I ask myself that question, that's a list 515 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: of seventy things every day I believe me doing, and 516 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: it's not going to happen. And I have learned through 517 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: hard experience that like doing four things today that really 518 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: did need doing, and doing the same again tomorrow, and 519 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: the same again tomorrow the day after that very swiftly 520 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: ends up leaving things better off than if I had, 521 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, kept on aiming to do seventy because something 522 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: about the type those days are you aim to do 523 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: seventy things, is you seem to end up doing even 524 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: fewer than if you've just picked up and probably not 525 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: the right ones because you haven't thought it through. Leaving 526 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: open space is always wise. The other thing that I've 527 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: struggled with mightily is whether is time boxing and you know, 528 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: the attempt to sort of the attempt to fit tasks 529 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: to specific times of day. And I have at this 530 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: point almost entirely moved away from it. You know. I 531 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: know I need to do things like the important work 532 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: has to be done at the beginning of my available 533 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: work time because that's how my energy levels work, and 534 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: things like that. But I have always found it ultimately 535 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: too oppressive and to brittle as a system to say 536 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: I'm going to be doing this between ten and eleven 537 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,719 Speaker 1: fifteen or something, because it exacerbates all the worst parts 538 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: of my personality that want to try to exert a 539 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: kind of rigid control over the day and over life. 540 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, is that heresy in your book? I no, No, 541 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: I mean it's fine. I schedule fairly loosely too, but 542 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: that's something I can do with, you know, a writer 543 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: and podcasters schedule. I know, people like my co host, 544 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: if she's seeing patients from you know, noon to three, 545 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: she's going to work around that in terms of when 546 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: she needs to do her other things. So it just 547 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: sort of depends on the kind of work you do. 548 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: But one thing I did want to ask you about 549 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: because this is something I think we both encourage people 550 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: to do a lot. I mean, you talk about spending 551 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: some of those four thousand weeks on hobbies and in 552 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: particular things that you know you're not trying to do 553 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: professionally that you talk about. Was it Rod Stewart building 554 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: trains like toy trains and wherever he's going on, Or 555 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: people could like build a ship at a bottle or 556 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: whatever else it is they want to do. But why 557 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: should we make space for those things in our four 558 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: thousand weeks? I think the main reason is that they 559 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: have this quality all of being more obviously just for themselves. 560 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: The philosopher Cure and Citia uses the word atilk here. 561 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: It calls them atilic activities. In other words, they're not 562 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: defined by their te loss or end point. They're not 563 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: trying to get to a point with them, they're not 564 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: trying to get somewhere. Their value is in doing them themselves. 565 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: So one of the examples I talk about the book 566 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: because it's very close to my heart, is hiking. And 567 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: I'm now really lucky to live somewhere where you know 568 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: you can do such thing as a forty minute hike 569 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: if that's all you have the space for in the 570 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: course of a day. There's not going to come a 571 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: point where I sort of declare that I've done all 572 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: the hiking I planned to do in my life, where 573 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: I've completed all the hiking. I will stop at some point, 574 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: but only because I have to or want to, not 575 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: because a destination has been reached. It's not something really 576 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: that you do to get better at it. It's just walking. 577 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: And I've been pretty good at just walking since I 578 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: was about you know, four. And there are certainly ways 579 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: now that you can sort of focus on posting your 580 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: roots and your and your photographs of great thing, great 581 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: views you're seeing to social media and to various apps, 582 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: so you know, it can get co opted into that 583 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: whole idea of doing it for something else or for 584 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: some other reason. But it's but it's just, you know, 585 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: whatever the hobby you would do, if you were drawn to, 586 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: whatever you're drawn to, if you did make time for 587 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: a hobby, it's likely to be something that you find 588 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: pleasure in the doing of for itself. And I even 589 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: make the argument in the book it might be quite 590 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: good to have something in your life that you're sort 591 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: of actually quite bad at and still enjoy which for 592 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: me is playing the piano, specifically kind of bad piano rock, 593 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: usually in with headphones on to spare other people, because 594 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,959 Speaker 1: there's no pressure. There's no part of me that is thinking, oh, 595 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: maybe I can get really good at this and then 596 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: get paid for it or get critical acclaim like that 597 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: is all these things that I do think about with 598 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: my writing. You know, I would quite like to be 599 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: celebrated for my writing, and that creates a pressure. There's 600 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: none of that in playing a piano because it is 601 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: never going to happen, and as a result, it's actually 602 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,959 Speaker 1: a special kind of enjoyment and pleasure and relaxation. Yeah, 603 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: I'm curious if you have anything that is sort of 604 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: a because one of the things you are getting at 605 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: this kind of weird here, but one of the things 606 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: you talk about in four thousand weeks is aligning your 607 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: time with other people, And it seems like if you're 608 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: getting at that, maybe you should even be playing bad 609 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: rock music with a band that like meets at a 610 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: certain time that you all practice together. So I'm very 611 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: curious if you'd have thought about doing something like that. Yeah, well, 612 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: I mean until we left Brooklyn Football actual, until COVID, 613 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: I was sang every week in an amateur choir. And 614 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to suggest that that the end result 615 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: of that. I don't insult the other members of that 616 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: by suggesting that it was a bad choir. It was 617 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: a very good choir. But one of the wonderful things 618 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: about choral singing is precisely that you can be not 619 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: very good at it, like me, and the whole is 620 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: much greater than the sum of its parts. It feels 621 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: like some kind of that there must be some sort 622 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: of mystical explanation for this, but I think it's just 623 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: basically that people's shops and flats cancel each other out, 624 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 1: and the end result sounds a lot more beautiful singing 625 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: a choir too. And okay, well, we get told if 626 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: we are going flat around the other people. Yeah, I 627 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't say we were. We were never kept on our toes. 628 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 1: But but anyway, the result is like you do feel 629 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: transported because you're part of something and it's something that 630 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: seems to be better than you know, almost any of 631 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: the members could individually have created themselves, you know. Now, 632 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: I find I don't right now have anything like playing 633 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: in a band with other people. But I totally yes. 634 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I make the argument in the book that 635 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: a lot of the value of our time is time 636 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: coordinated with other people, and that means surrendering some of 637 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: the autonomy over when things happen. Now I find, you know, 638 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: it's very often things involving playdates for the kid, right 639 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: or activities and things like this. I know some of 640 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: these are the bane of some parents' lives, and again 641 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: maybe it's a sort of a luxury of only having 642 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: one child, but I find that the rhythms of the 643 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: week that are imposed by things like swimming lessons and 644 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: playdates and regular meetups and cafes and things like that 645 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: are actually like I may sometimes resent them because I 646 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: had a plan and now I can't put that plan 647 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: into practice, but more often than not, I end up 648 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: concluding that on some level, well, firstly that they're enjoyable 649 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: in practice, and then secondly that it's kind of good 650 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: for me on some level to be existing in this 651 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: kind of web of community. And the only way you 652 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: can exist in a web of community is if you 653 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 1: to lay down the law all the time about when 654 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: things happen. Yes, well, certainly being in any sort of 655 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: community will do that, and as you know, being a 656 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: parent will do that as well, but all all worth 657 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: it for that. So we always end with a love 658 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: of the week. So this is just something that we 659 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: are enjoying that is good for, you know, our lives. 660 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: At the moment. I can go first, so you could 661 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: think about it, okay, But as we've been talking about, 662 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: I love, you know, singing and playing the piano, and 663 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: sometimes it's fun to just try to play hymns and 664 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: sing along with those. So I have a piano at 665 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: my house that I will, you know, play whatever hymns 666 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: we sang in church and try and go through them 667 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: and learn the piano. And I am I am not 668 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: that great at sight reading, so that could be something 669 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: that I'm not going to be paid to be doing, 670 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: to be accompanying hymns anytime soon, and I'm having to 671 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: stop in the middle, but I really enjoy doing it 672 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: and trying to figure it out. So how about you, 673 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,280 Speaker 1: what's what's your love of the week. I have really 674 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: enjoyed collecting with my son, collecting frog spawn from some 675 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,280 Speaker 1: of the ponds on the high moortops here and bringing 676 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,280 Speaker 1: a little bit of it back home to a fish 677 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 1: tank and getting those pre tadpoles ready to become tadpoles. 678 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: Such an incredibly simple thing that sort of reminds me 679 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,399 Speaker 1: of my own childhood, I suppose, and feels like kids 680 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 1: have been doing it since time immemorial. But there's something 681 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: about tending for little bits of the natural world in 682 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: some way or another. I guess it's the appeal of 683 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: gardening as well that I'm really enjoying. That's great. Yeah, 684 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: hopefully the frogs aren't too loud, nowhere near being frogs yet. 685 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: And they're going back. Okay, well they're going back. They're 686 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: going back into the they're going back into the ponds. 687 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: They came from the start of the ponds. The frogs 688 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: on the pond, we had some in our backyard in 689 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: my house, and come spring the evenings we're filled with 690 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,760 Speaker 1: a lot of riotous frog activity to create those tadpoles. 691 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: These ponds are a bit further away, these puns a 692 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: bit further away, but as you might have been able 693 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: to detect her, we do have neighbors with very loud chickens. 694 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: So that's my that's my day to day. Here is 695 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: rooster's crowing. Yeah as well. It's good to be part 696 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: of the natural world. Oliver. If you could tell our 697 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: listeners where they can find you, that would be great. Sure. Yeah, 698 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: the book is available everywhere you might expect, and my 699 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,479 Speaker 1: website is Oliver Berkman dot com, where you can also 700 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: sign up for my newsletter. Well, thank you for joining us. 701 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 1: My pleasure. Thank you so much for asking me. Well 702 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: that was great. It is always fun to chat with Oliver. 703 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: We're so glad he was willing to come on. So 704 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: this question comes from a listener who says she has 705 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: been a loyal listener for many years and encourages our 706 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: words about pursuing both professional success and motherhood. So she 707 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: has been spinning her head about a dilemma and wanted 708 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: our council. For the past several years, she has been 709 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: pursuing her career as an independent consultant. She works entirely 710 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: with nonprofit organizations. As one might imagine, for years, she 711 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: was underpaid, especially compared with some male counterparts, but she 712 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 1: is finally earning good money. Her business brings in almost 713 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars annually, so great for her. The problem, 714 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 1: I can't seem to shake the guilt of earning what 715 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 1: I currently make. I know many people who consult make 716 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: more than I do, and when I think about a 717 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: man in my situation, I doubt that fear would cross 718 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: his mind. But I know that many of the people 719 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: I work with, for instance, full time as employees at schools, 720 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: often make significantly less than I do, and they also 721 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: work very, very hard. So it feels a little bit 722 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: crazy to be earning more than my colleagues. She's feeling 723 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: guilty about that. Any thoughts or words of wisdom we 724 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: have for her, So, Sarah, what would you say? I 725 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 1: just instinctuively was sad that she felt guilty, and so 726 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,399 Speaker 1: I communicated that to her. I said, personally, I do 727 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: not think you should feel guilty. This is just your 728 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: reward for what you have built, which clearly is valuable 729 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: to other people, or else they wouldn't be paying you 730 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: for those services, and therefore you're reaping some rewards. And 731 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: if you really are guilty and want to alleviate those feelings, 732 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,919 Speaker 1: other than just working on that thought process and thinking 733 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: about what Laura is going to say after, you could 734 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 1: think of, you know, maybe small ways you might want 735 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: to be able to give back, and you mentioned like 736 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,720 Speaker 1: women of color not getting paid fairly, So maybe something 737 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: along those interests would be purposefully trying to mentor someone 738 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 1: who's interested in a similar path who may not have 739 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: so many opportunities, or figure out some other volunteerism to 740 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: take part in that addresses some of those concerns, or 741 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,799 Speaker 1: even donate some money to maybe a scholarship fund so 742 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: that someone who wants to get education to have a 743 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: better job could have those opportunities that they wouldn't otherwise have. 744 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,879 Speaker 1: But other than maybe doing some good things to make 745 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: yourself feel better, I think you should enjoy that you 746 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: have created something this valuable and be proud of it. Yeah, 747 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: I would say I would file this under the category 748 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: of questions no man would ever ask us. Two things. 749 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: One is that consulting is pretty much a free market, 750 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: Like no one ever has to hire a consultant. So 751 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: if you are bringing in what you feel is, you know, 752 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: really good money, it's because the organizations that hire you 753 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 1: are feeling like you add even more value than what 754 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: they are paying. So when we're talking about nonprofits that 755 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: are serving the greater good, adding value means you're helping 756 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: more people like you're helping them expand their scope, you're 757 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: helping them have their finances more under control so they're 758 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,760 Speaker 1: more sustainable. Those are all great things, like yay, Okay. 759 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: The second part I would say is that people value 760 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: different things. I mean, I hate to be the one 761 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 1: bringing this up, but when you run a business, your 762 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: business could crash overnight, right like, in certain circumstances, because 763 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: no one needs to hire a consultant. If things go 764 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: south in the funding sources for your clients, your business 765 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 1: is gonna be the first thing on the chopping block. Okay. 766 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,439 Speaker 1: I mean, that's just the truth about that sort of thing. 767 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: Whereas one of the upsides of being perhaps somebody in 768 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,879 Speaker 1: a unionized position in a public school, is that there's 769 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,760 Speaker 1: a fair amount of stability, right and so some people 770 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: value that stability quite a bit, and there's a trade 771 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 1: off there in terms of, you know, maybe not as 772 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: high as salary as you could have in other circumstances, 773 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: but there's good, you know, benefits and stability coming with that. 774 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: So you know, looking at the whole package, and you know, 775 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: maybe some people in larger nonprofits that you are serving 776 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: don't have the unionized aspect or the same benefit packages 777 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: that might be involved with that. But again they may 778 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 1: have more stability too, Like you know that most people 779 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,839 Speaker 1: don't want to just cut their employees willy nilly here 780 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: and there, Like it's very hard to run a business 781 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 1: if you're doing that running an organization, So there's some 782 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,719 Speaker 1: stability where they are going to most likely get a 783 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: paycheck every two weeks, whereas you have to hustle to 784 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,959 Speaker 1: bring in what you are earning. And so some people 785 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 1: value stability more and are willing to accept, you know, 786 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: in the grand market of labor, lower compensation in order 787 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: to get that. So that's just something you can tell yourself. 788 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:20,799 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that there aren't many people who are 789 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,359 Speaker 1: underpaid and should be paid more, but you are also 790 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: getting a risk reward premium, and it's important to recognize 791 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: that as well. Well. This has been best of both worlds. 792 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,840 Speaker 1: I have been interviewing Oliver Berkman, who is the author 793 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: of four thousand Weeks Time Management for Mortals. We will 794 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: be back next week with more on making work and 795 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me 796 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,240 Speaker 1: Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore 797 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 1: Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at 798 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of 799 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 1: both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more 800 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: on making work and life work together.