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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, Radio News Now to our exclusive

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Speaker 1: coverage from the Wyoming Blockchain Symposium. Joining us now is

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Speaker 1: Crack and CEO Argren sat Cracking Insault, hosting the symposium

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Speaker 1: this week. Argune, good to chat with you again. I

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Speaker 1: know you weren't at the event last year, but I

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Speaker 1: imagine the vibes even this year quite a bit different,

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Speaker 1: given the regulatory outlook, given the excitement, and of course

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Speaker 1: given the price increase that we've seen in so many

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Speaker 1: of these digital assets. What are the vibes like?

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Speaker 2: Look, I think you just have a large amount of

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Speaker 2: tailwinds from what you saw last year, obviously with members

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Speaker 2: of Senate, members of House, etc. And so you have

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Speaker 2: a lot of excitement between folks that are here in

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Speaker 2: the United States and outside the United States thinking about

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Speaker 2: what's going to be the next evolution of building on blockchain,

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Speaker 2: building on crypto, building with global liquidity in mind. So

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Speaker 2: the vibe here is great. Like we're in Jackson HALLWAYOM

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Speaker 2: right before the meeting with the rest of the FED,

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Speaker 2: and you just got a lot of excitement in the room.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is the next evolution of this technology?

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Speaker 1: The next evolution of the blockchain. What's your view?

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, we're really early. We just had at

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Speaker 2: the symposium, we kicked it off and we started talking

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Speaker 2: about global finance and what's going to happen in the ecosystem.

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Speaker 2: We had a very us look at it, and then

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Speaker 2: we had a very zero sum look at it, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, the value of bitcoin is going to be

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Speaker 2: more sons with gold and on. Our take has been

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Speaker 2: more that bitcoin is a protocol, it's a network, and

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Speaker 2: you have another set of protocols like etch et cetera,

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Speaker 2: and that the way in which we think about it

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Speaker 2: today is very linear and it's hard to think about

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Speaker 2: what is exponential and super linear. And so the way

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Speaker 2: I think about it is that we're just in the

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Speaker 2: really really early innings of what's going to be trillions

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Speaker 2: of trillions of dollars coming into the ecosystem, building against it,

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Speaker 2: and then the value continuing to grow.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain more your thesis behind bigco being a

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Speaker 1: protocol or being something that you build on, because I

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily hear that from people who buy bitcoin or

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Speaker 1: necessarily see that, because right now it just looks like

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Speaker 1: people are using this as a way to build wealth

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Speaker 1: they're buying and they're holding because they think the price

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Speaker 1: will continue.

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Speaker 2: To go up. Look, whenever in history you've had anything

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Speaker 2: starting to grow at a certain velocity, people will have

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Speaker 2: different interpretations of what it means. And so the first

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Speaker 2: version of what you've seen in crypto Bitcoin, which has

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Speaker 2: been the default it's an on ramp and off ramp

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Speaker 2: into crypto, has been that like, this will be the

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Speaker 2: store of value and this is where I think I

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Speaker 2: can make money. So you have volatility across the way,

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Speaker 2: and you've also seen the asset continue to grow. I

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Speaker 2: think there's a certain amount of people that want to

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Speaker 2: perpetuate that. Then there's just what is the technology of

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Speaker 2: what you're allowed to be able to do with bitcoin

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Speaker 2: and how that's going to continue to be perpetuated and preserved.

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Speaker 2: And so remember look at the original thesis of the

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Speaker 2: Bitcoin white paper. It was to be a hedge, but

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Speaker 2: at the same time was sending and receiving payments. So

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Speaker 2: you've got a lot of folks coming at it from

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Speaker 2: different angles. When you have a lot of folks coming

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Speaker 2: at it from a different angle, and it's a protocol

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Speaker 2: and it's a network and it's a store value, there's

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Speaker 2: just so many different applications that are going to be

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Speaker 2: built around it and within it. Then there's a next

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Speaker 2: set of folks that are thinking about how to build

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Speaker 2: around it, which is what we've seen with Eth then Solana.

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Speaker 2: The list kind of goes on. They're all you know,

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Speaker 2: combined together. And I think what people miss is that

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Speaker 2: we're just in the early innings of what the market

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Speaker 2: cap is, you know, in the trillions today, what happens

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Speaker 2: in five years, what happens in twenty years.

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Speaker 1: I want to home in on that point that you

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Speaker 1: made about this being something that is used to exchange

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Speaker 1: for goods or services, As you said, it was in

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Speaker 1: the white paper more than a dozen years ago. At

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Speaker 1: this point, are we seeing that play out at all

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Speaker 1: right now when it comes to bigcoin specifically, or are

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Speaker 1: people just buying and holding it. I'm not seeing prices

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Speaker 1: denoted in bitcoin by any means.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Well, there's some folks that are trying to

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Speaker 2: take you know, payments in bitcoin, but I think the

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Speaker 2: overall you know arching thesis today and the usage is

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Speaker 2: you know, buy and hold and then watch the value

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Speaker 2: a crew. But you are starting to see people try

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Speaker 2: to bridge against it and build against it, and so

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Speaker 2: it's really early. Most of this innovation you see is

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Speaker 2: happening outside of the United States, but a lot of

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Speaker 2: what we're trying to figure out is like how do

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Speaker 2: we bring it into the United States, keep it here,

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Speaker 2: control it here, and perpetuate it here so that innovation

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Speaker 2: continues to grow in the United States.

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Speaker 1: One more on the market and then I want to

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Speaker 1: get to crack in specifically and the roadmap and sort

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Speaker 1: of theory and strategy there. Where do you think we

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Speaker 1: are in the cycle? Given there's been so much pull

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Speaker 1: forward since the November election and on optimism over the

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Speaker 1: regulatory environment you mentioned just you know at the beginning

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Speaker 1: of our interview, the optimism around that. Where do you

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Speaker 1: think we are in the cryptocycle? Are we at the

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Speaker 1: top or is there more room to run higher?

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Speaker 2: Look, I wear another hat chairman at Tribe Capital, and

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Speaker 2: one of the first things I tell any entrepreneur that

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Speaker 2: I work with is the word hubris is really important

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Speaker 2: as you grow. And so as you grow at a

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Speaker 2: high velocity, a lot of people will think about your

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Speaker 2: company as you know, as a prime candidate. And so

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Speaker 2: what happens is you think about the supply and demand

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Speaker 2: of any type of valuation. When there's more eyes looking

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Speaker 2: at something, the value of that asset tends to accrup

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Speaker 2: and sometimes that's not healthy. So where we are in

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Speaker 2: the market, when I think about where we are in

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Speaker 2: the market with crypto, we're really really early in the slope.

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Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean that you won't have any ups

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Speaker 2: and downs and volatility along the way. And I would

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Speaker 2: say that if I was to just look at it

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Speaker 2: from a pure numbers perspective, I think we're in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the road. And the more we get market structure,

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Speaker 2: the more we get market stability, the more inflow of

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Speaker 2: capital that comes in. I mean, take a look at

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Speaker 2: like the DATS. You can make an argument that it's

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Speaker 2: good for the ecosystem. We can also make an argument

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Speaker 2: that there's a lot of folks that are sort of

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Speaker 2: thinking about crypto fast and loose. And it reminds me

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Speaker 2: and it's reminiscent of what you saw on twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: where the discipline approach around building a business starts to

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Speaker 2: go away and it trickles away. And so I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, the way in which we carry ourselves is

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Speaker 2: more about what's the disciplined approach to making sure that

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Speaker 2: we're catering towards our customers what do they need rather

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Speaker 2: than speculation. So I think we're in the middle of

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Speaker 2: the road, but it doesn't mean that we can't have

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Speaker 2: hubris in this category over the next year or two.

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Speaker 1: Hey, before we go, I want to try to get

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Speaker 1: some updates on how you're thinking about the road to

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Speaker 1: a publicly traded company at CRACK and can you give

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Speaker 1: us an update on your IPO when it will take place,

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Speaker 1: any banker's size, anything color around that.

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Speaker 2: Sure. Look, I think people use the word public markets

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Speaker 2: as if it's like a race to an exit, and

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Speaker 2: like we're private. We've stayed private. We've raised less than

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Speaker 2: twenty five million in capital since twenty eleven, and we've

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Speaker 2: been able to stay disciplined. The way we think about

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Speaker 2: our journey along the way private or public is that

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Speaker 2: isn't in the best service to our clients and our customers.

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Speaker 2: If the answer is no, we won't go public. And

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Speaker 2: so there's no real update there. It's just that you

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Speaker 2: know we're profitable, We give our quarterly updates, and we

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Speaker 2: want to make sure from a counterparty risk perspective, trust

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Speaker 2: is the currency that we.

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Speaker 1: Care about what are your takeaways from recent IPOs of

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Speaker 1: firms in the space circle. For example, we saw Bullish

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Speaker 1: last week. The investor appetite was certainly there for that one.

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Speaker 1: What are your thoughts.

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Speaker 2: If I use the framework of intrinsic value versus options value.

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Speaker 2: My personal belief is that a lot of these companies

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Speaker 2: in the crypto ecosystems are option valued, So they're overvalued

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Speaker 2: in my perspective. And in some cases that is a

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Speaker 2: good thing and and a bad thing, which is you're

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Speaker 2: getting more attention and so you know more about what's

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Speaker 2: happening in the industry. But I think it's really important

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Speaker 2: to just take a look at, you know, how are

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Speaker 2: these companies growing efficiently? Where do they make their money,

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Speaker 2: where do they not and where do the losses recruit?

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Speaker 2: And so again, taking a step back, how do these

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Speaker 2: companies actually grow the industry, How do they grow themselves?

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Speaker 2: And are they actually fighting intrinsic value to themselves and

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Speaker 2: their shareholders is what matters most.

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Speaker 1: So which companies do you look at and say those

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Speaker 1: are overvalued?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, I think any company that

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Speaker 2: gets into a category of a meme tend to get overvalued.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's necessarily good or bad. You just

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Speaker 2: take a look at the numbers and say, like, does

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Speaker 2: it actually make sense for where they're going to be

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Speaker 2: in two years, five years, and ten years. So I

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Speaker 2: don't have any specific perspective on which one is overvalued.

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Speaker 2: I just think the world of crypto has become a

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Speaker 2: more overvalue with the dats and the companies that have

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Speaker 2: been going public.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been pretty wild to follow this just over

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Speaker 1: the last few months, and what a difference we've seen

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Speaker 1: in a little, you know, over a year at this point. Hey,

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Speaker 1: one more for you on the public markets and what's

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Speaker 1: happening there. Are you concerned at all about all the

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Speaker 1: companies that are going public sort of taking away interest

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Speaker 1: from a potential IPO for you, or sort of taking

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Speaker 1: the air out of the room when it comes to

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Speaker 1: investors who want to invest in a company that is

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Speaker 1: in the crypto space, By the time you get there,

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Speaker 1: maybe the interest won't be there because there are so

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Speaker 1: many others.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've been around around a lot long time in

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Speaker 2: Silicon Valley, and I think what you've seen is that

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Speaker 2: there's a race. You know, it's kind of let me

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Speaker 2: put my idea on a napkin and raise, you know,

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Speaker 2: tens of millions, one hundred millions of dollars. Put a

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Speaker 2: dot com at the end of my company and take

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Speaker 2: it public. I think good companies get valued because they're

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Speaker 2: good and because they're able to continue to execute.

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Speaker 1: Argent Safety Kraken's CEO. Always good to see you, Argent,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us on Bloomberg Crypto