1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey, everyone, 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. He was 4 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 2: one of the biggest young stars in the NFL, a 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: New England Patriots tight end, with a massive contract, a 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 2: Super Bowl appearance, and what looked like an unstoppable future. 7 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: Then seemingly overnight, Aaron Hernandez went from football phenom to 8 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: convicted murderer. But what makes this story so haunting isn't 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: just the crimes. It's all the questions surrounding them. The violence, 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 2: the secrecy, the paranoia, the trauma, the pressure of football culture, 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 2: the possibility of severe brain damage, and the unsettling reality 12 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: that so many people around him saw warning signs long 13 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:03,639 Speaker 2: before everything finally explas in public. The FX series American 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: Sports Story Aaron Hernandez revisits the rise and fall of 15 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 2: Hernandez and explores the complicated mix of identity, fame, violence, 16 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: and CTE that surrounded his life and death. It is 17 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: a very compelling series, incredibly well made, and today we 18 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 2: are joined by forensic psychologist doctor Rachel Toles, whose work 19 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: focuses on extreme violence, behavioral warning signs, and the pathways 20 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: that can lead people towards dangerous behavior. Doctor Rachel, Welcome 21 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 2: to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for being here today. 22 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. Alisa, this is great. 23 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 3: So excited. Your show is amazing. 24 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: Oh I. 25 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: Am so excited. There are some guests where I'm like, 26 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: when are we doing it? When are we doing it? 27 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: When are we doing it? And this is one of 28 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: those occasions because I am just so fascinated by the 29 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: work that you do and how detailed and your expertise, 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: and so let's just jump right into this. So for 31 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: the people that only know the headlines, this really Aaron 32 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: Hernandez was. He was at the absolute top of the 33 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 2: sports world, a Patriots star, super Bowl player, one of 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 2: the most dangerous tight ends in football, and then seemingly 35 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: suddenly at all collapses. But what's really unsettling is that 36 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: it didn't just sort of happen overnight, did it. 37 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,399 Speaker 1: There were many signs along the way. 38 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,399 Speaker 3: That's right. I mean, it was an absolute chain of escalation. 39 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: And when you start kind of digging in and learning 40 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 3: about murders in general, you do see that all of 41 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 3: them have a chain of escalation. They don't just I 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 3: think that one thing about true crime is a lot 43 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 3: of times it can feel like a person just snaps 44 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 3: and they don't give a lot of background story. But 45 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 3: what's fortunate in the Aaron Hernandez case is we actually 46 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 3: do get quite a bit of background story, which kind 47 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 3: of shows how it all started, the roots, even going 48 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 3: back to Dennis his father's roots, and like how it 49 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 3: started even there. And a lot of times when people 50 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 3: talk about the case, they talk about how Aaron had 51 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 3: an abusive father, But it's like, but this doesn't just 52 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 3: come out of a vacuum, like how did he get abusive? 53 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 3: Why was he snapping? Like again? And I think that 54 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 3: one thing when I talk about these cases people get 55 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: nervous about is they think that me explaining how somebody 56 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 3: gets their means that I'm excusing the behaviors. And it's 57 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,119 Speaker 3: never an excuse. People conflate explanation with excuse all the time, 58 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 3: and it's like, yeah, don't e conflate them. There is 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 3: no excuse for violence. But if we can't explain it, 60 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 3: then how do we stand a chance of preventing it? 61 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: And that's what I always say. 62 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: This is I love that you're saying this straight away 63 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: because one of the reasons that I'm so fascinated by 64 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: all of these things and why I wanted to do 65 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: this podcast in the first place, is that there is 66 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: a full story behind everyone. And the fact of the 67 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: matter is these are all human beings and they did 68 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: not and I would say almost to every case, they 69 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: weren't born, these murderers. You know, there are many things 70 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: that contribute to bringing a person to the edge of that, 71 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: and I very and I even you know, I even 72 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: say to like my daughter on the playground and girls 73 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: do things, I'm like, this is why, and it's non excuse, 74 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: is an explanation where it's coming from. 75 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: And I think we don't. We don't do that enough 76 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: in our culture in general. 77 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 3: We don't. We just we're very good at labeling people 78 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 3: and just kind of then just say, okay, well that's 79 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 3: what they are. And when we label somebody anything psychopath, narcissist, 80 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 3: what it gets us to stop looking? And again, if 81 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 3: we stop looking, then how are we going to ever 82 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 3: prevent these things? So this is like why we have 83 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 3: to become more curious, and it can also help us 84 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: develop more compassion and connection to our fellow humans, which 85 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,799 Speaker 3: I think the world needs for sure. 86 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like a little choir of angels that just went, 87 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 2: oh yeah, I really believe that too. So this series 88 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: really explores how Aaron Hernandez could seem completely different depending 89 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: upon who he was around. And is that kind of 90 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 2: compartmentalization common in people living double or even triple lives? 91 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean compartmentalization is one of my favorite things 92 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: to talk about because because, first of all, one of 93 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 3: the most common questions I get with my work is 94 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,239 Speaker 3: how is it Because of course I study serial killers, 95 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 3: and Aaron Hernandez, even though he was acquitted for the 96 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 3: other murders, in my opinion, his makeup, the factors he had, 97 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 3: all nine factors that could have meant that he could 98 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 3: have continued going on killing had he not been caught, 99 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 3: because of just the level of trauma and what was 100 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 3: going on. So one of the things that I get 101 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 3: asked a lot when I talk about serial killers, and 102 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,559 Speaker 3: again not saying Aaron Hernandez was one, but he could 103 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: have become one, just given everything that I've learned about 104 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 3: his case, and it is how is it that a 105 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 3: person can be married to and love his wife, and 106 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 3: love his children and go out and just murder, people 107 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 3: have this whole other double life. So what is going 108 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 3: on in this situation? How does a human being do that? 109 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 3: And I always say, all human beings can compartmentalize. That's women, 110 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: that's men, all human beings. One example that I give 111 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 3: to kind of help people wrap their heads around how 112 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 3: humans do this, because yes, with Aaron Hernandez that we 113 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 3: know that there is a certain level of trauma that 114 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 3: got him to split. But I guess my point is 115 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 3: I want to point out first how any human can compartmentalize, 116 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 3: and then we can also get into the weeds of 117 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 3: like the trauma, and how then that that split becomes 118 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 3: even that much more extreme. But every human being, you know, 119 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 3: most of us don't like cruelty to animals. Whenever I 120 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: talk about cruelty to animals about my shows, people get 121 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 3: very upset about it because obviously, you know, if I 122 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: talk about you know, John Gacy or it was Ted 123 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 3: Bundy's grands whipping cats around by their tails, they get 124 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 3: way more upset about that than you know, him throwing 125 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 3: his daughter Julia down a flight of stairs for oversleeping, 126 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 3: And it's like, wow, it's interesting that you know, people 127 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 3: get way more upset about animals getting hurt, and yet 128 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 3: we're also able to be upset about that and go 129 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 3: to a restaurant and order burger or a steak without 130 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 3: really thinking about where that animal, what that animal suffered. 131 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,799 Speaker 3: You know, we're very good as a society at compartmentalizing 132 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 3: when society tells us some animals don't really count, or 133 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 3: some people don't really count. I mean, sex workers don't 134 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: really make the news when they're killed. Hence a lot 135 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 3: of serial killers get away with killing them. Black victims 136 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 3: don't make the news, so we don't hear a lot 137 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 3: about black serial killers because they tend to go for 138 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 3: their own race. You know, these are the types of things. 139 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 3: So anyway, I just went off on a tangent, but 140 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 3: in the same way, just another example, people in Nazi Germany. 141 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 3: They loved their wives and children, and yet they were able, 142 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: because of what society was telling them, to load innocent 143 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 3: children onto trains and you know, just justify it, morally, 144 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 3: justify it because of what society had been telling them. 145 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: And plenty of them were not forced to do it. 146 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 3: There's a great book called Ordinary Men talking about this 147 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 3: very thing. 148 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 2: And so is a what so is there some moment 149 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 2: where it's like a click in the brain where now 150 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to stop looking at that, or is it 151 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: like a slow burns. 152 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 3: An escalation of things where they're looping even as children, 153 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: and we know that they start looping because of their fears, 154 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 3: their paranoias, the things that are going on in their 155 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: childhood homes, the ways they start to soothe themselves, Like 156 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 3: there's a whole thing I can walk you through, like 157 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 3: how they wind up somehow getting to a place where 158 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 3: they are now in this kind of obsessive neurotic loop 159 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 3: that then in order to quell it, they need to 160 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 3: dominate in some way to feel like they squash it 161 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 3: out of existence. And what they're actually squashing out of 162 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 3: existence is a part of themselves that they really can't 163 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: stand and they need to murder over and over again. 164 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: But in the case of someone who so Aaron Hernet 165 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 3: is is unique, so unlike let's say someone like Dennis 166 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: Raider who or Rex Morman, Rex human being a more 167 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 3: current case where it's a guy who had a wife 168 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 3: and children who he treated very well according to them, 169 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 3: and was able to do it. They're able to just 170 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 3: say in the same way, like I love my wife, 171 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 3: my child and sex workers are kind of like again 172 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 3: those slaughterhouse animals, like they're for my pleasure. They're for 173 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 3: my pleasure, and they're just able to just split it 174 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 3: like I love my family, I will protect my family. 175 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 3: Touch a hair in my family's head and I'll kill you. 176 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 3: And sex workers are for my pleasure because I'm going 177 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 3: to go out and get myself a stake tonight. And 178 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 3: that's just how they view it, and they justify it 179 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 3: in their minds in a way where it's like, well, 180 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 3: society says that some people could be executed and put 181 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: to death just depending on how much authority you have, 182 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 3: So why can't I, I mean, and you can kind 183 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 3: of go with how they get to that place. But yes, 184 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 3: erin or and I was very different in this way 185 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 3: because yes, in his case, there were so many things 186 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 3: that were escalating over and over and over again. 187 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: So in this series they do they certainly cover to 188 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: a degree that his troubled childhood in terms of the 189 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 2: extreme misogynistic and judgmental and violent behaviors of his father. 190 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: And but then he goes directly into and you know, 191 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: the parents just screaming and cursing at one another like 192 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: a sort of general blanket disrespect for one another and 193 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: human kind of communication. But then also they really cover, 194 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: which was particularly disturbing to me, the extreme misogyny and 195 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: the football culture in general, and they really highlight that. 196 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: And have you found that to be a big part 197 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: of the cause of some of these behaviors for Aaron 198 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: and others? 199 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 3: Absolutely, So, I don't know if you were, if you 200 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 3: ever saw the documentary The Murders of Bristol, that's yes. 201 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: So I was saying them all one, Yes, I've been 202 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: that one. 203 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 3: And I'm talking about the fact that you know, there's 204 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 3: a yearbook photo where Alex Ring, Aaron Hernandez Nicholas Breutcher 205 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: are standing shoulder to shoulder. 206 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: Yes, I did not know that before this documentary. 207 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 3: I did, Yes, Yes, And these three men who were 208 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 3: all in the same football team wound up going on 209 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 3: these kind of murderous you know, rampages if you if 210 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 3: you will, I mean obviously Alex rings situation was where 211 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 3: he was he killed, murder, suicide his his wife and 212 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 3: and and that was something. And it's interesting because many 213 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 3: family annihilators are not publicly explosive personalities beforehands like Chris 214 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 3: Watts is another good example, like if you actually start 215 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 3: looking at like family annihilators, even this guy this current 216 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 3: story the Travelers, uh that that guy they owned the 217 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,599 Speaker 3: restaurant chain that just killed allegedly killed his wife, his 218 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: two children, of himself from everyone is saying, well, a 219 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 3: lot of people said he was reserved and quiet, maybe 220 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 3: a little bit testy, but not outwardly. Most are the opposite, 221 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 3: whereas like the other guy, Nicholas Brutcher, he was way 222 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 3: more externalizing, so kind of more of a bully, and 223 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 3: so there was you know, they both had very different personalities, 224 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 3: but of course they both then wound up snapping in 225 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 3: their own ways. But going back to the concept of 226 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 3: misogyny and like what's going on there, I mean, that's 227 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 3: a part of it, but that's just one part of it. 228 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 3: But yes, that's a part. I mean, just feeling like 229 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: you're above something that you can't cry. Like this is 230 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 3: the thing about our society, Like we're really good at 231 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 3: saying well, boys, they're allowed to get angry and they're 232 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: allowed to snap, but if they. 233 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: Cry, they can't cry. 234 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, they can't cry. We still call them sissies. Girls. 235 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 3: They're allowed to cry, but if they if they get angry, 236 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 3: they're crazy, right, So we have this weird double standard 237 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 3: and we're just taught that that's just the way it is. 238 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 3: So boys when they Okay, So here's a little somethings. People. 239 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 3: You know, ninety over ninety percent of homicides are committed 240 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 3: by men, and of course or ninety three percent of 241 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 3: serial killers are men and seven percent are female. But 242 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 3: of the seven percent female serial killers, almost one half 243 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 3: have a male accomplice, so it's even that much smaller. Yeah, 244 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: So it's like, so what is are men so much 245 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 3: more likely you know, to do these things? And one 246 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 3: of the things that we know about boys and girls 247 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 3: is the differences in the way they deal with trauma. So, girls, 248 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 3: if they experience traumas, they are way more likely to 249 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 3: turn in on themselves, so they'll be more like cut themselves, 250 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 3: develop eating disorders, get involved with dangerous sex work, get 251 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 3: involved with violent, abusing relationships, you know that kind of thing. Boys, 252 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 3: in comparison with girls, are way more likely to externalize 253 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 3: the trauma. And so that's why one of the things, 254 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 3: like with Aaron Hernandez, like we he dealt I mean, 255 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 3: you probably read his brother's book. 256 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: I have not read his brother's book, but I would 257 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: want to now, Yeah, excellent. 258 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 3: I highly recommend it because there's so much in that book. 259 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 3: It's called The Truth About Aaron, My Journey to Understand 260 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 3: My Brother. I think he wrote in twenty eighteen. He 261 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 3: talks about how Aaron was sexually abused. That was a 262 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 3: big part. So again one of the many factors in 263 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 3: the chain of escalation. And Aaron allegedly what the bed 264 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 3: as a child a lot and we know that that's 265 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 3: the somatic response. So in a lot of cases, not 266 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 3: all cases, you know, in not all cases of people 267 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 3: who at the bed where they sexually abused, but in 268 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 3: many cases. And there's this old theory called the McDonald triad, 269 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 3: and I don't know if you've heard of that, but 270 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 3: the McDonald triad basically basically states that if typically they're 271 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 3: talking about boys, but they can be talking about girls, 272 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 3: but if a child, what's the bed lights, fires, and 273 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 3: is cruel to animals, that those three things that triad, basically, 274 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 3: like this was an older theory, basically means they're going 275 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 3: to be a psychopath, or they're going to maybe get 276 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: you start killing people. And it's like or again, boys 277 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 3: are more likely to externalize their traumas. If they are 278 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 3: lighting fires, they're probably pretty angry about something, so they're 279 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 3: being destructive. If they're wedding the bed, something is going 280 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 3: on where their body is not feeling safe, where their 281 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: body can't when it starts to relax while it's sleeping, 282 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: starts to release because it doesn't the you know, the 283 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 3: system is not there's a whole science behind what's actually 284 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 3: going on. When you live either in a violent environment 285 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 3: as a child, or if you're being sexually abuse, how 286 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 3: you can't relax. And then of course when a child 287 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 3: is cruel to animals, which we you know, so many 288 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 3: people just assume, well that just means you're a psychopath. 289 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 3: It's like or it's a kid who's targeting a smaller. 290 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: Life form, smaller because they. 291 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 3: Are getting targeted by a bigger life form, and that 292 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 3: is just like this come out of a vacuum. So 293 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 3: I just think it's so important to talk about this stuff. 294 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: Right right, right again, Like putting these buckets and these 295 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: sort of titles on things and moving on, it stops 296 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: the investigation. Yeah, I mean, they certainly the show gets 297 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: into a lot of the darkness in his childhood and 298 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 2: his father was such a huge presence in his life, 299 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 2: and they really do in the show I in my opinion, 300 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 2: they try to make the full picture where you see 301 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: that he created some structure for him, but that he 302 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: really looked up to him, but he feared him. 303 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: He was controlling. 304 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 2: And so when somebody loses a figure like that so young, 305 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 2: can it completely destabilize them? 306 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 3: Yes. I mean again, when you've got someone who's so 307 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 3: dominant and abusive and you also have such adoration for 308 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 3: that person, you know, that's exactly what can happen. I mean, 309 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 3: we know that. Here's an extreme example. And again I'm 310 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 3: not saying that Aaron Hernandez was a serial killer, but 311 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: the case of ed Gean, the guy who a famous 312 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 3: serial killer who the movie Psycho was based on, the 313 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 3: movie Texas, jamesaw Asker, the others, and then of course 314 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 3: Buffalo Bill of one of the people he was based 315 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 3: on was ed Gen. Edgan's mother, not the father, but 316 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 3: the mother figure was so incredibly dominant that basically the 317 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 3: child internalizes that part. And when the parent dies suddenly, 318 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 3: which is what happened, I mean dies and he didn't 319 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: know what to do at all, and so he completely 320 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 3: unraveled and that's when he started grave digging and then 321 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 3: of course eventually started killing women. But like, yes, so 322 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 3: Aaron Hernandez is less extreme example of that, but it's 323 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 3: just to kind of show you that this is something 324 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 3: that gets documented when you have a parental figure who's 325 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 3: incredibly dominant and you internalize them to that degree where 326 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 3: there's such a part of you that when they pass away, 327 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 3: it's like you don't even know where you start and 328 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 3: where you end because your father had the say and 329 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 3: who and what you did. So in the similar so 330 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 3: that's why I compare the cases, because Edgin had no 331 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 3: idea who he was outside of mother. Hence he started 332 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 3: creating women skin suits to become mother again, and so 333 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 3: in a weird like so they kind of start like 334 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 3: they just don't know what to do with. 335 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: Themselves, and so that's right. 336 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would say, yeah, so he was sixteen, 337 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 3: I think when his father died of yes, a routine 338 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 3: hernia operation. You know, it just went in and it's 339 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 3: like boom, and that is when a lot of things 340 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 3: really started going downhill. 341 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, they certainly make that connection in the series, I 342 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: think pretty well, and that even so much that then 343 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 2: he decides to he's going to go to Yukon because 344 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: that's what his dad said, and that's where his brother went. 345 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: And then he completely. 346 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: Flipped and decided to go to Florida, and everything certainly 347 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: did start to like unravel. So when he one of 348 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: the things that is also really kind of disturbing in hindsight, 349 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 2: two things the way that they they sort of stopped 350 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 2: treating him like a young person. He was so young 351 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 2: when he went to Florida and like left high school 352 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 2: and all these people just sort of treated him like 353 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: a commodity and like a piece of meat, and he 354 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: had no real his brain most certainly was not even 355 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 2: fully formed at that point. So what kind of impact 356 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 2: does that sort of thing have on someone's identity? 357 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 3: So when you're talking about just the fact that people 358 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 3: are treating you like a product, or the fact that 359 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 3: people are treating you like you're like an adult when 360 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 3: you're still kind of a kid figuring it. 361 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: Out, Yes, both more so the prior but both, Yeah, 362 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: because he didn't really get to psychologically develop and no 363 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: one seemed to care about that. 364 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, all he knew was that the only 365 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,479 Speaker 3: time he was acceptable was when he was killing it 366 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 3: like a man on the football field, and that is 367 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 3: what he learned anything else. I mean, you know, in 368 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 3: the book that his brother wrote, he talks about how 369 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 3: his father would call him on a regular basis I 370 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 3: hate to say the word, but the and like why 371 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: are you're standing like a going back to this misogynistic 372 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 3: and this machismo culture, and it's like, you know, there 373 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 3: are no fens in Hernandez family. He would say things 374 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 3: like that, horrible, horrible things. But when Aaron killed it 375 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 3: like a man on the high school football field, his 376 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 3: father cried like a baby, even though his father beat 377 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 3: the crap out of them if they ever cried. But 378 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 3: somehow crying on the football field with tears of pride 379 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 3: streaming down your face isn't considered weakness. So there's this 380 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 3: double standard. But getting back to your. 381 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: Total standard, there's a total. 382 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 3: Double standard, right, But then you know, so confusing, it's 383 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 3: very confusing. And so he's living this double life. He 384 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 3: is living a double life where he has to basically 385 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 3: hide who he is underneath and play the role the product. 386 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 3: I mean, he learned that he was rewarded by behaving 387 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 3: in a certain way. And again, these family systems where 388 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 3: you see people who become violent and kill, sometimes multiple times. 389 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 3: There is always a split, a public versus private split, 390 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 3: where who they are the product that they are in 391 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 3: public is very different than what's going on behind closed 392 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 3: doors and the other thing that gets you know, so 393 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 3: so because of that, I think just feeling like I'm 394 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 3: a product, I've got to present a certain way whatever 395 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 3: my truth is, that that can just go away because 396 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 3: I need to present in order to make everybody happy. 397 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 3: It's like dance mighty dance like it's this, but that 398 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 3: they feel like that and then of course then they go. 399 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 3: And that's another reason why. I mean something we haven't 400 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 3: brought up yet, but just the escalation of the drugs 401 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 3: and alcohol, which was a huge fuel into all of. 402 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: This, right, so that yeah, we're definitely going to get 403 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 2: into that too, because that seems to be a very big. 404 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: Part of things. But you know, one of the things 405 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: touching upon. 406 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,719 Speaker 2: Kind of what you were just saying that that is 407 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: so heartbreaking is that in hindsight that many people described 408 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: him as very vulnerable and or even you know, really 409 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 2: kind of congenial and sweet and very gentle. Yeah, so 410 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: someone can be deeply emotionally wounded and still become dangerous. 411 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 3: I would say everyone that I've ever studied in my 412 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,479 Speaker 3: life had at some point they were deeply you know, 413 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 3: they had emotional they needed connection. Things went awry and 414 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 3: then they became dangerous. But there's always a starting point. 415 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 3: There's no child that's born. You know. First of all, 416 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 3: you see these these MRI scans or these PET scans. 417 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 3: And by the way, and we'll obviously talk about Aaron's brain, 418 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 3: but the areas of the brain that are impacted by trauma, 419 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 3: like certainly with Aaron's brain, we know that there were 420 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 3: lasions found on his amigdala and his preends or frontal cortex, 421 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 3: which are exactly the areas that you know, when people 422 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 3: look at these supposed psychopath scans, they're like, oh, look 423 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 3: they're going to It's like we've never strapped a newborn 424 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 3: baby into an MRI machine and said, well, that one's 425 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 3: going to be psychopathic. It's like, no, they don't start 426 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 3: out this way, because if they did, we'd see the studies. 427 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 3: But we don't. And so it's very convenient to say, well, 428 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 3: that person's just a psychopath is if they were born 429 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 3: that way, and I have yet to see it. 430 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: I have yet to see the proof, right, right. 431 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: So another thing of the show really explores is how 432 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: normalized aggression can become in football culture. 433 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: So can people start. 434 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 2: Carrying that kind of mindset into their everyday life. 435 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean again, you're killing it on the field. 436 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 3: I mean just even think about what that read like. 437 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 3: You're killing it. And so it's like and so the 438 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 3: idea that you can't get violent enough in some way 439 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 3: like you're I mean when you talked, I'm sure you 440 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 3: know some people who at least are you know, ben 441 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 3: football players and ex. But they'll tell you during the 442 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 3: training and thing, I mean, you go for blood. You 443 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 3: go for blood when you're piling up and you're grabbing 444 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 3: at people's testicles and I mean, it's it's out of 445 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 3: control like that, there's an animalistic part of you that 446 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 3: comes out because you have to win it all costs. 447 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 3: You have to win it all costs, and that's just 448 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 3: it doesn't matter what the cost is. And so that 449 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 3: will bleed into your normal life because especially if you 450 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 3: get triggered, then your brain might like so trauma can 451 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 3: cause you to dissociate and depending on how severe the 452 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 3: trauma is, you will basically completely go inward. And it's 453 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 3: like you've left the building on the outside. But that's 454 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 3: when you'll hear about people whose pupils will get really big, 455 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 3: so their eyes will turn completely black and it's like 456 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 3: they've now switched into this other survival mode. But you 457 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 3: know that's often when they go into killing mode, because 458 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 3: it's like, now I have to be the dominant one 459 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 3: because it's killer, be killed and the and that's where 460 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 3: their brain goes. It really is like this primitive they 461 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 3: switch into this place of I've got to kill or 462 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 3: be killed, even though like there may not even be 463 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 3: a threat and typically there isn't one in right everyday life, 464 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 3: but they are still seeing it suddenly through that lens 465 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 3: because something has triggered them. 466 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they cover that in this series as well, 467 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 2: particularly when he's the nightclub and his paranoid and thinks 468 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 2: that people are coming after him or that they're police, 469 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 2: or that they're laughing at him. But then, so how 470 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 2: much and he was obviously reportedly smoking marijuana in the 471 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 2: in the show, they say laced with PCP often, So 472 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: if you're doing that from a very young age, and 473 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: how much can chronic drug use affect your judgment and paranoia? 474 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: Over time. 475 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 3: This is such a great question. It's so important because again, 476 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 3: so many serial offenders, I mean most of the ones 477 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 3: I've said, they're on something like they're they're usually drunk 478 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 3: or they're on something like it's not like you know. 479 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 3: So again, so as Aaron's success in football grows, so 480 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 3: does his alcohol and drug use, which does escalate the paranoia. 481 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 3: Because again going back to the two areas of the 482 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 3: brain that I just mentioned where they found lesions on 483 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 3: his brain, the amigdala, So the amigdala is a part 484 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 3: of the limbic system, which is the emotional center of 485 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 3: the brain. So if you experience fear or trauma, that 486 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 3: thing kind of lights up like a Christmas tree, and 487 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 3: so it's kind of like the alarm system in the brain. 488 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 3: And then you've got the frontal cortex, the prefrontal cortex, 489 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 3: which is involved in things like executive functioning, so math problems, 490 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 3: impulse control, decision making, that kind of stuff, judgment, so 491 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 3: that that's like the brake system. And that's so those 492 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 3: are the two areas that we know when you've dealt 493 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 3: with a lot of trauma that they can be really impacted. 494 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 3: And when you drink alcohol or when you take substances. 495 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 3: Those areas are also the areas of the brain that 496 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 3: get impacted, which basically means that if you have compromised 497 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 3: parts of the brain already because of your own trauma, 498 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 3: both in your environment as a child being beaten and 499 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 3: physically intimidated all the time, and then of course the 500 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 3: sexual abuse and all these other things, then you're getting 501 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 3: your head knocked, which we knew at starting age seven, 502 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 3: he was dealing with major concussions tackle football, got hit 503 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 3: in the head with the hammer, I mean, and can 504 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 3: go on the thing and so like, and so by 505 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 3: high school, those areas are getting jostled around and really 506 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 3: messed up. So then you add alcohol, and so you're 507 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 3: going to be you're adding so much more damage to 508 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 3: the areas that are already damaged, then you will it 509 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 3: will put you in a dream state, so we reality 510 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 3: suddenly won't be the way that it is for most people, 511 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 3: even if they are a little bit tipsy, because you 512 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 3: already have compromised areas of your brain, and those are 513 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 3: the areas that get that get messed with when you 514 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 3: drink alcohol or take drugs. So this is just like 515 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 3: so now you're adding more and more and more on 516 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 3: top of so he's then in a dream state where 517 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 3: reality has left the building, and therefore, whatever his thoughts 518 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 3: are in that moment that people are out to get him, 519 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 3: that he's got to protect himselves, yself at all costs, 520 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 3: killer be killed, it all just comes rushing in and boom, 521 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 3: it's now he's like he's in a video game. 522 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 2: And so that I was gonna come back to, I'm 523 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 2: going to do it right now, so I don't forget 524 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 2: that very thing I was struck by. They cover this 525 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 2: in this series as well, but also the documentaries that 526 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 2: I've watched and listened to where you hear, especially when 527 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 2: you hear him talking on the telephone from prison, he 528 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 2: can sound very at once like cooing to his daughter 529 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 2: and then the next minute saying these like deeply misogynistic 530 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 2: and horrible things and then almost laughing about his own 531 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 2: situation and saying you know that he doesn't he's not 532 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: he's not. 533 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: Afraid to be there. 534 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 2: So is this all like, is the brain is somebody 535 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 2: like that conscious that they're switching back and forth like that. 536 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 3: No, But so just so I get clarity on this. 537 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 3: So you're talking about a phone call between him and 538 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 3: his partner, right, his wife, Yes, beance, I should say yes, 539 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 3: so so cooing with this arter being misogynistic with his 540 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 3: fiance and then saying and I'm not scared. So what's 541 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 3: interesting about that is you've got everything that he grew 542 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 3: up with because he again witnessed models who I mean, 543 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 3: he witnessed his father being completely misogynistic towards his mother. 544 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 3: I mean, this is something like he grew up like. 545 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 3: So guess what. That's also his love language because that's 546 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 3: the love language he saw and that's a part of 547 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 3: believe it or not, what some people interpret his love right. 548 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 3: So the couping to the daughter is like how you 549 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 3: treat a little kid, and then the talking down to 550 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 3: his fiance in that way, it's a way that intimacy 551 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 3: is something that he's learned that that's how intimacy works. 552 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 3: That that's in a strange way, a way you talk 553 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 3: to somebody you care about, you talk to you know 554 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 3: even though you know, and then of course having to 555 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 3: be the man, manly man, I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid. 556 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 3: So he's going through all the parts of themselves that 557 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 3: he's basically created, and also the parts of himself that 558 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 3: he learned to be in his own childhood right. 559 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 2: That's it for part one of our conversation with forensic 560 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 2: psychologists doctor Rachel Tolds. Next time will go even deeper 561 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: into the Aaron Hernandez story, including how much of who 562 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 2: he really was became visible long before the murders ever happened.