1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,680
Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

2
00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

3
00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,119
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

4
00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:13,880
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

5
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,200
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

6
00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:29,560
Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

7
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,280
Speaker 3: They call be Ben. We're joined as always with our

8
00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,320
Speaker 3: super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you

9
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,000
Speaker 3: are you are here. That makes this the stuff they

10
00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 3: don't want you to know, and we hope that your

11
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:48,320
Speaker 3: pets are listening in as well. In tonight's conversation, we're

12
00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,879
Speaker 3: getting to something that is going to be familiar to

13
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,800
Speaker 3: all pet owners and animal lovers in the crowd. It's

14
00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,680
Speaker 3: the idea that you might have a favorite pet and

15
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,680
Speaker 3: you feel that, oh my gosh, this pet gets me.

16
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,160
Speaker 3: We have a genuine bond. I don't just interact with

17
00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 3: this dog or this cat or this parrot. We wholeheartedly

18
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,720
Speaker 3: communicate with and understand each other on a deep level.

19
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,200
Speaker 3: Have you guys ever had that feeling with an animal,

20
00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,000
Speaker 3: a furry, scalier feathered friend.

21
00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,120
Speaker 4: I'm starting to feel it with my buddy Apollo. He's

22
00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,080
Speaker 4: very young, still less than a year old. But I

23
00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,000
Speaker 4: don't know. I feel like we get each other, and

24
00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 4: it's a new face for me having that kind of

25
00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,480
Speaker 4: connection with an animal. I've only had cats in the past.

26
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,520
Speaker 4: I don't feel like it's possible to connect with cats

27
00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:35,080
Speaker 4: on that level.

28
00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:36,440
Speaker 2: Ben, you may disagree.

29
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,200
Speaker 4: I just feel like they're kind of weird aliens and

30
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,360
Speaker 4: they don't literally more figuratively speak the same language as

31
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,320
Speaker 4: we do.

32
00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,280
Speaker 2: A little man, my cat, Smoky really got me.

33
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:46,119
Speaker 4: That's cool.

34
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:47,160
Speaker 2: I think, Toby, it's.

35
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 4: A cat to cat situation.

36
00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:49,040
Speaker 1: It is.

37
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,120
Speaker 3: I would say it's probably it's cat to cat. It's

38
00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,200
Speaker 3: person to person. And cats, as we're gonna find, are

39
00:01:55,320 --> 00:02:01,360
Speaker 3: a really interesting break in the narrative of domestication. You know,

40
00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,000
Speaker 3: we as we say, they domesticated themselves.

41
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,600
Speaker 4: And I saw recently a study. I need to look

42
00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,120
Speaker 4: deeper into it, but I've seen it in a few places. Evolutionarily, apparently,

43
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,200
Speaker 4: they're like xenomorph levels of the perfect organism.

44
00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:22,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, just like how alligators and crocodiles got to

45
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 3: a certain point of evolution and said we figured it out.

46
00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,919
Speaker 3: We're good, Well, we'll just continue. And I've seen I

47
00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,760
Speaker 3: don't know if you guys have seen clips of people

48
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,440
Speaker 3: befriending gators. It's amazing. Also, don't try it at home.

49
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,560
Speaker 3: But I love that you're bringing up the scientific breakthroughs there, Noel, because,

50
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,240
Speaker 3: as we're going to find, recent research is making this

51
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:50,600
Speaker 3: question of animal human communication more and more fascinating with

52
00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,680
Speaker 3: each passing year. So is it true, can we actually

53
00:02:54,720 --> 00:03:07,000
Speaker 3: speak not just at but with other animals? Hopefully here

54
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,959
Speaker 3: are the facts. I mean, it's a fascinating question, right,

55
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,200
Speaker 3: And the first thing we have to point out is

56
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 3: that humans are themselves technically animals.

57
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,799
Speaker 4: For sure, And also the concept of communicating with animals

58
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:25,239
Speaker 4: seems very like anthropomorphizing and human centric, you know what

59
00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,360
Speaker 4: I mean, Just like, on a very basic level, it

60
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,280
Speaker 4: implies a very you know, I don't know, Homo sapien

61
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,400
Speaker 4: centric view of the animal kingdom, which just doesn't seem

62
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,840
Speaker 4: to always hold because communications for all kinds of things

63
00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,840
Speaker 4: and can be very species dependent and very environment dependent,

64
00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 4: and since we've kind of evolved away from a lot

65
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,040
Speaker 4: of those things being as crucial, I just feel like

66
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 4: we're kind of in a little bit of an island

67
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,600
Speaker 4: in terms of what that communication would even feel like.

68
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,640
Speaker 4: I don't mean to poo poo, the idea I do

69
00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,200
Speaker 4: think there are probably breakthroughs coming that could bridge that gap,

70
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,720
Speaker 4: but yeah, I don't know. It seems a little selfish

71
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,880
Speaker 4: to think that dogs or cats or merangutans even given

72
00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:06,840
Speaker 4: about what we think.

73
00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,800
Speaker 3: It's anthrocentric for sure, and I agree with that it's

74
00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,160
Speaker 3: because part of it is because humans just happen to

75
00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 3: be the animals we know the most about, because humans

76
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,880
Speaker 3: like asking questions about what it means to be human

77
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:27,240
Speaker 3: and amid all the animals. If we put the anthrocentrism aside,

78
00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,920
Speaker 3: humans do appear to consistently have some of the most

79
00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:36,560
Speaker 3: sophisticated cognitive skill sets, you know, abstract thought, object permanence,

80
00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,159
Speaker 3: tool making, empathy. Your results may.

81
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,480
Speaker 4: Be vary cognition key part of that too.

82
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:49,320
Speaker 3: Thinking about thinking and science now agrees these and related

83
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,680
Speaker 3: traits are by no means unique to humans. It was

84
00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:58,520
Speaker 3: something that was taught in school pretty often human exceptionalism.

85
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 3: It seems that despite sharing these traits across various organisms,

86
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,440
Speaker 3: humans themselves are overall the most advanced in these pursuits,

87
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,720
Speaker 3: depending again to your excellent point how you look at it.

88
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,039
Speaker 3: Another issue is that humans and animals have been doing

89
00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:21,800
Speaker 3: little team ups since people started peopling, and then probably

90
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:27,039
Speaker 3: before then, before modern Homo sapiens, the ancestors, the predecessors

91
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:31,599
Speaker 3: of the Homo sapiens were befriending you know dogs, well, wolves,

92
00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:33,720
Speaker 3: wolves that they turned into dogs.

93
00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,760
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and there's had to have been interaction between

94
00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,119
Speaker 2: human and animal, as you're saying, there have been for

95
00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 2: so many different reasons.

96
00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:43,719
Speaker 4: Right.

97
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:49,480
Speaker 2: So there's been this history of humans hearing the calls

98
00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 2: of various types of animals, right, and then attempting to

99
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 2: use language to communicate something to those animals. And we've,

100
00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 2: as you said, were mentioning canines here, we've had some

101
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 2: success in getting canines to at least understand in some

102
00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,239
Speaker 2: part like a single word or a couple of words

103
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,680
Speaker 2: strung together or something like that. And you could do

104
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,400
Speaker 2: that with other animals like New Caledonian crows and a

105
00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,080
Speaker 2: bunch of other you know, apes that we've interacted with

106
00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:26,159
Speaker 2: and other other creatures. But like that, that thing, it's

107
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,039
Speaker 2: still missing there to be able to the feedback right

108
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,480
Speaker 2: from one to the other. Just because you can command

109
00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 2: a dog to do something, doesn't mean that dog can

110
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,200
Speaker 2: fully you know, give you a response.

111
00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:42,440
Speaker 3: Right, And just like someone singing along to a sublime

112
00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,400
Speaker 3: song in Spanish, and not speaking Spanish doesn't mean you

113
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,440
Speaker 3: understand what you're saying. You're mimicking speech rather than participating

114
00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,680
Speaker 3: in conversation. And this a lot of this does go

115
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,960
Speaker 3: back to domestications worth mentioning. We have a series about

116
00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,920
Speaker 3: the domestication of dogs on Ridiculous Hists or check it out.

117
00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,680
Speaker 3: Domesticated types of animals are actually quite rare in the

118
00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,440
Speaker 3: grand scheme of things. The alpaca, the sheep, the cow,

119
00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 3: the pig, et cetera. All the hits, and then again cats,

120
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,600
Speaker 3: you're a bit of an exception. You just showed up.

121
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,080
Speaker 3: You literally just walked onto stage. And we also talked

122
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:24,800
Speaker 3: previously in a conversation about plants that domestication is perhaps

123
00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 3: more of a two way street than a lot of

124
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:31,800
Speaker 3: humans like to admit, because certain animals and plants, you

125
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:39,040
Speaker 3: could argue, have themselves affected the course of human evolution.

126
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:45,600
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's endlessly fascinating, and it's also incredibly difficult,

127
00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,240
Speaker 3: to your point, Matt, to prove how the first human

128
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:53,360
Speaker 3: animal interactions that led to domestication began. We have good

129
00:07:53,400 --> 00:08:02,080
Speaker 3: guesses we're probably right, but somebody, wolf, pups and increasingly

130
00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,960
Speaker 3: tamed them. So the best analog for that is going

131
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,360
Speaker 3: to be, of course, the infamous phenic fox experiments over

132
00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 3: in Russia, where they found that you can take a

133
00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,240
Speaker 3: wild animal ethics aside over time, you can breed it

134
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 3: to become increasingly open to human interaction in a nonviolent way.

135
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:28,240
Speaker 3: And when you are domesticating these types of animals, the

136
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,480
Speaker 3: one thing that I think surprised a lot of people

137
00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:35,920
Speaker 3: is that they tend to keep juvenile features as they

138
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 3: as they grow up. Right, That's why wolves can look

139
00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,280
Speaker 3: like serious, you know, hard case customers. But you might

140
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 3: have a shizoo that is kind of like a baby

141
00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:48,520
Speaker 3: for the entirety of.

142
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,040
Speaker 2: Its life, very strange.

143
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,400
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's fair to them. You ever

144
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,040
Speaker 3: see certain dogs and you think, man.

145
00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,360
Speaker 4: They don't look like they're having a good time, like

146
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,480
Speaker 4: the problems and not and stuff. I mean, little Apollo

147
00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,800
Speaker 4: is like what you consider a purebred miniature poodle or

148
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,480
Speaker 4: sorry toy poodle and has these tear stains that like

149
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,520
Speaker 4: around the eyes that sort of like I don't think

150
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,800
Speaker 4: it bothers them, but the eyes just get really really crusty,

151
00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,360
Speaker 4: and I do sometimes wonder is this a product of

152
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 4: or is this just a dog thing.

153
00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 3: I don't know, but ah yeah, there's a shizoo in

154
00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 3: my family that is just adorable, but is a companion

155
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,280
Speaker 3: dog rather than what we would call a function dog,

156
00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,560
Speaker 3: you know, like a hunting dog or art. Yeah, and

157
00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:44,240
Speaker 3: I've been hanging with that guy for a number of years,

158
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,439
Speaker 3: who was probably my mother's favorite kid for a while

159
00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:48,520
Speaker 3: before she passed on.

160
00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,880
Speaker 2: But uh yeah.

161
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,960
Speaker 3: But the these traits have been purposely created by humans

162
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,959
Speaker 3: over time, and they're not just physical, They're not just cosmetic.

163
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,840
Speaker 3: Communicative traits have been encouraged too. And even if we

164
00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,440
Speaker 3: don't know how the grand story began, like I said,

165
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,800
Speaker 3: we've got some pretty good guesses. And one thing that

166
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:11,840
Speaker 3: was interesting I think to all of us in the

167
00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,600
Speaker 3: research is some people will even today tell you that

168
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,680
Speaker 3: it was the intervention of the Anu Naki that led

169
00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:25,400
Speaker 3: to domesticated animals, so along with agriculture and fire return.

170
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 3: I love it.

171
00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,240
Speaker 4: That's not on you, man, It's just the course of

172
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:30,240
Speaker 4: human civilization.

173
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,440
Speaker 2: I think ANKI came down with some of that toxoplasmosis

174
00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:35,760
Speaker 2: and that's how we got Christy.

175
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,319
Speaker 4: That's what I'm saying, man, talking about the perfect organism.

176
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,680
Speaker 4: I mean, they literally can infect you and cause you

177
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:41,600
Speaker 4: to do their bidding.

178
00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:49,400
Speaker 3: Me and toxoplasmosis is a fascinating example of symbiosis too right,

179
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,319
Speaker 3: or a parasitic relationship, especially when you look at how

180
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,040
Speaker 3: it affects some types of humans differently than others. They

181
00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,240
Speaker 3: get the general rule of thumb. What talks plasmosis Gandhi

182
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:06,320
Speaker 3: is that female identified women who are infected will tend

183
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,839
Speaker 3: to be more promiscuous, and that the dudes in the

184
00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,600
Speaker 3: crowd to get infected will tend to have like mental

185
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:14,880
Speaker 3: issues down the road.

186
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:16,240
Speaker 4: That's the idea.

187
00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:17,040
Speaker 2: That's what it did to me.

188
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,400
Speaker 3: I think I'm not sure did you did you ever

189
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:19,880
Speaker 3: get tested?

190
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,960
Speaker 2: Did you actually tested? But I've had many a cat

191
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,880
Speaker 2: in my life, and I was a wee boy, so

192
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,720
Speaker 2: I imagine that it seemed in from somewhere.

193
00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,480
Speaker 4: It has to have. And I'm sorry, I don't mean

194
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,160
Speaker 4: to derail this at all, but like that is real, right,

195
00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,880
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously it's real in terms of like being tested,

196
00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,480
Speaker 4: But does it like what what are we meant to

197
00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:39,360
Speaker 4: be doing if infected with this.

198
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:41,240
Speaker 3: Question?

199
00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:41,959
Speaker 1: Yeah?

200
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:48,000
Speaker 3: It changes it changes behavior, So it's we can't totally

201
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,720
Speaker 3: blame this on the cat. But it changes behavior such

202
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 3: that it's easier for toxoplasmosis gandhi to to reproduce. That's

203
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,240
Speaker 3: what parasites are all about. Ultimately, it's change in behavior

204
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,559
Speaker 3: so that it can make more of itself and then

205
00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,000
Speaker 3: get to other things in its life cycle.

206
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,280
Speaker 2: Okay, that's why I eat so much hot sauce, guys,

207
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,200
Speaker 2: to hopefully flush out the gandhi.

208
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:16,440
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, And we didn't even know about

209
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:23,080
Speaker 3: the effects of this organism on human cognition until nineteen

210
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:28,680
Speaker 3: forty seven, you know, and severe congenital toxoplasmosis can lead

211
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,679
Speaker 3: to some like very gnarly stuff. But anyway, that is

212
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,720
Speaker 3: maybe on a positive note, that's a communication aid with

213
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,679
Speaker 3: your cat, But the idea of equal peer to pure

214
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,360
Speaker 3: human animal communication is a real bag of badgers. Like

215
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,480
Speaker 3: you were saying, animals, some animals and humans definitely communicate,

216
00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,200
Speaker 3: because all animals communicate on some level. If we're defining

217
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,520
Speaker 3: that as action and response. Where cat meows, cat's also

218
00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 3: meowing in general is another very weird thing. Your dog

219
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,880
Speaker 3: knows how to signal your concerns like meadow knows how

220
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,199
Speaker 3: to get the message across.

221
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,160
Speaker 2: Yes, and she says, give me food in dog, and

222
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,240
Speaker 2: it's very.

223
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,199
Speaker 3: Clear, it's quite explicit. Apollo does the same. My old

224
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,640
Speaker 3: buddy Ed was very good at it too, because German

225
00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,240
Speaker 3: shepherds are quite clever. But I was thinking about it.

226
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:26,560
Speaker 3: We could kind of also argue that every animal communicates

227
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,520
Speaker 3: with humans. A tiger is effectively communicating displeasure by you know,

228
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:33,360
Speaker 3: murder humans.

229
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the exact same way that all

230
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,000
Speaker 4: of our cats will eat our eyeballs the moment we.

231
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,160
Speaker 3: Die, dogs will too.

232
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:43,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

233
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,800
Speaker 4: I think it'll take the dogs a little longer though.

234
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,160
Speaker 4: That's my theory and I'm sticking to you.

235
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:48,120
Speaker 3: I like to think that.

236
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,920
Speaker 2: But ultimately, the coolest thing about that's very funny, guys,

237
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,560
Speaker 2: But just take it to that tiger. The tiger is

238
00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,240
Speaker 2: communicating so much in its body language, right, That's one

239
00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:58,200
Speaker 2: of the things we talked about with.

240
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,079
Speaker 4: Animal Lincoln her ass like a these.

241
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,800
Speaker 2: Little things and sometimes like a small sound that is

242
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,000
Speaker 2: not the same sound that's an alert sound that you

243
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,040
Speaker 2: would hear. And there's all kinds of really interesting hunting

244
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,160
Speaker 2: things like cats do. Right when you imagine them mimicking

245
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,480
Speaker 2: the birds and doing that fun stuff by the window,

246
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,600
Speaker 2: there's stuff going on there. But again it's us. It's

247
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,640
Speaker 2: up to us to figure out what the hell it

248
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,680
Speaker 2: really means or what is actually being, what the thoughts

249
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,040
Speaker 2: are that are linked to that. Actually, I have.

250
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,960
Speaker 4: A real problem with my cat, Vanessa, because he just

251
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 4: it's yes, it's a male cat named Vanessa seems to

252
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,680
Speaker 4: only know how to communicate through incessant, repetitive, noisy mewing,

253
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,120
Speaker 4: and I often don't know what he wants and he

254
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,640
Speaker 4: doesn't make it clear. He'll mea me me out to

255
00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,640
Speaker 4: come inside, then immediately mea mea me how to go outside. Uh,

256
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,560
Speaker 4: it's not food time. I'm giving him pets. I'm perplexed

257
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 4: as to is he just trying to torture me and

258
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,840
Speaker 4: and and reck my sanity? Like what do you want?

259
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 4: You Devil's spont or it's just open remarks, possible commentary, Yes, exactly.

260
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,760
Speaker 2: Well, well, we're going to get into it further in

261
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,480
Speaker 2: the episode. But there are some folks out there working

262
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 2: on getting you answers NOL specifically thank you.

263
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, And we're going to talk about some pretty fascinating

264
00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,840
Speaker 3: science when we when we explore these concepts, because animals

265
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,120
Speaker 3: do communicate through scent, through marking territory, insects have really

266
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:35,720
Speaker 3: creative communication abilities, like the fact that certain bees communicate

267
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,200
Speaker 3: directions by not dancing for each other.

268
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,320
Speaker 4: That their little bee butts.

269
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,359
Speaker 3: Uh huh yeah, yeap, work your way to like forget gps.

270
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,520
Speaker 3: We have bees twerking that that is how they talk.

271
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 2: It's what is the flag thing. It's like semaphore, right,

272
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 2: but with butts, but with butts.

273
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,600
Speaker 3: Finally, finally, the time has come. That is the only

274
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,840
Speaker 3: problem with semaphore and birds. Of course, anyway, it goes

275
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,200
Speaker 3: on and on. This is the crux of our episode.

276
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:13,360
Speaker 3: Aside from communication overall, what about speech? Can you, as

277
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 3: a human not just talk at or two animals, but

278
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:25,480
Speaker 3: can you speak with them? Here's where it gets crazy. Yes, goodness, yes,

279
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 3: asteris caveat fine print mm yep.

280
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 4: M m yeah. All the things we've mentioned previously probably

281
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,520
Speaker 4: being contained within that asterisk.

282
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,520
Speaker 3: So first, to be clear, by talking with we mean

283
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,240
Speaker 3: holding a conversation like you were saying, there, Matt, it's

284
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 3: that's not the same thing as your favorite non human animal.

285
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,480
Speaker 3: Knowing a few of your vocalizations what we would call words,

286
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,360
Speaker 3: you know, like the name you use for them, apollo,

287
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,480
Speaker 3: come here, boy, or key phrases, like walk or treat

288
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 3: or sit or you know, if you got commands, maybe

289
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,159
Speaker 3: just say norway and the dog knows that means to

290
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 3: spin around in a certain way.

291
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, or Machschnell to your Doberman.

292
00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:12,000
Speaker 2: What does that do?

293
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:12,520
Speaker 3: Yeah?

294
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,680
Speaker 4: I mean, I mean apparently a lot of neo Nazis

295
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,360
Speaker 4: trained their their attack dogs with German commands.

296
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,040
Speaker 2: Oh that's love.

297
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a new way to profile dogs. I

298
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 3: feel really bad about it, but I do it too.

299
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,439
Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't know, I don't know. I trust

300
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,639
Speaker 3: this dog. It does no German.

301
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:30,120
Speaker 2: Oh jeez.

302
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,920
Speaker 3: But those who were like, I don't trust the owners,

303
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,040
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? I think we're all very

304
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,000
Speaker 3: pro dog here.

305
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 2: There was a really interesting study coming out of the

306
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,400
Speaker 2: University of Geneva last year about dog human communication in

307
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,119
Speaker 2: those respects and about those singular words you know, or

308
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,119
Speaker 2: commands that you're talking about there, and and it was guys,

309
00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,040
Speaker 2: it was amazing. They connected the EEGs up to both

310
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,080
Speaker 2: dogs in humans like pairs, as they're talking and communicating

311
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,399
Speaker 2: and wanting things from each other. It was so cool

312
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 2: to see how basic it's. It's almost as if humans

313
00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:10,880
Speaker 2: and canines are on different speeds. If that makes sense

314
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,120
Speaker 2: when it comes to how much like you and I

315
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 2: and we can all understand per minute, and then how

316
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,439
Speaker 2: much a dog can understand per minute, and then why

317
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,680
Speaker 2: those commands are so effective when it's only one or

318
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,639
Speaker 2: two syllables that occur to make a thought happen or

319
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,919
Speaker 2: a concept occur. It's really interesting stuff. But then it

320
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,040
Speaker 2: makes you think about, well, how when we're communicating to

321
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,960
Speaker 2: our canine in that way, and then it is communicating

322
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,160
Speaker 2: back to us in pretty similar like phrasings and similar

323
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,160
Speaker 2: repeated sounds like the barks. If you think about those,

324
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 2: it's not a bunch of different types of barks occurring

325
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:58,880
Speaker 2: at once. It's like bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, barks. Well,

326
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,200
Speaker 2: it just just to put out there. It's very interesting

327
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 2: when we're thinking about communication in this way and our

328
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 2: effectiveness thus far as humans talking with animals like that's

329
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,159
Speaker 2: probably as close as we've come outside of some bird

330
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,480
Speaker 2: species that can mimic and repeat, right, But some of

331
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,399
Speaker 2: that's a little different. And then of course some of

332
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,880
Speaker 2: the primate studies where you can actually communicate often sent

333
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,400
Speaker 2: with sign language and things like that.

334
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, or appear to communicate yeah, a sign language. Yeah,

335
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,919
Speaker 3: well we got to get into it. So the anthrocentrism

336
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,479
Speaker 3: point is something we're going to return to time and

337
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 3: time again, because it's more fair to say that human

338
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,200
Speaker 3: animals have different modes of communication than that of other animals.

339
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,040
Speaker 3: If you think your dog is dumb because it doesn't

340
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 3: understand what you're saying about the gold standard and the

341
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 3: eighteen hundreds, well guess what Fido thinks. You're pretty slow

342
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,880
Speaker 3: too in terms of dog language. It's like this guy.

343
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,720
Speaker 3: I've known this guy for three years, hasn't stiffed my

344
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,520
Speaker 3: butt once? You know what I mean? Like what it is?

345
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, come on, what's wrong with me?

346
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 3: It's because humans tend to prioritize sight. That is one

347
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,320
Speaker 3: of the big information channels through which the human experience

348
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,119
Speaker 3: is the world. And that's also why body language is

349
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,679
Speaker 3: often more important in an in person conversation than the

350
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,239
Speaker 3: content of the speech. That's also why text messages can

351
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,200
Speaker 3: be so easily misinterpreted. Sorry to my mom and all

352
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 3: of my ex girlfriends. My bad. We can all unfortunately

353
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 3: feel that way, no doubt. Yeah, so it's crazy because

354
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,360
Speaker 3: that the site thing is very common across a lot

355
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 3: of primates. Right, the parent company of the human experiment,

356
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 3: which is why you should never, ever, under any circumstances,

357
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 3: make prolonged eye contact with a gorill. Yeah.

358
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 4: They'll rip your face off, if I'm not mistaken, your

359
00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 4: face off.

360
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, even if everything is cheesecake and you have known

361
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 3: this gorilla for years and you hang out and you

362
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 3: share sign language with each other, don't look them in

363
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 3: the end.

364
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 4: Because that is a very species specific form of threat. Right.

365
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 4: Can we take a minute here really quickly to talk

366
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 4: about the all the ink that's been spilled about Coco

367
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 4: the gorilla and the sign language of it all, and like,

368
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 4: is that really communication or is it training?

369
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 3: You know?

370
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 2: Wait, wait, wait, well I don't know this, So there's

371
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 2: like huge.

372
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 4: Falsific not that it's falsified, it's just it's you can

373
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 4: train an animal with a certain level of intelligence to

374
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,679
Speaker 4: do a thing, but does that mean that it understands

375
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 4: exactly what it's doing? And you know, folks who interacted

376
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,400
Speaker 4: with Coco would say yes, like Flea and Robin Williams

377
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 4: or whatever, But what do you know, Ben, I just

378
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 4: thought it would be a good time to bring that

379
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 4: up because it's all, oh yeah, been a head scratcher

380
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:56,879
Speaker 4: for me.

381
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll get into this in more depth as we

382
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,360
Speaker 3: go through some examples, but you're absolutely right now. There

383
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 3: is a huge amount of controversy about Coco the gorilla

384
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 3: and the experiments with communication. There By the time she

385
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 3: had passed away in twenty eighteen, people who were fans

386
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 3: of the research and researchers involved in the project believe

387
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 3: that she could understand something north of two thousand spoken

388
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 3: words in English. But as we'll go, we'll see why

389
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,640
Speaker 3: some other people take.

390
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 4: Except me the scoop us on that it's just on

391
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,479
Speaker 4: my mind and I'm excited to dig more into it.

392
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 3: Oh, one hundred percent, man right there with you. We

393
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 3: also know that the leader of the pack are a

394
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 3: plus students are, of course dogs, because they've evolved to

395
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 3: communicate more effectively with humans, up to understanding things like

396
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 3: pointing right or even sign language. You don't always have

397
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 3: to talk to a dog. You can do a little

398
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 3: twirly and it'll know what you mean. They even evolved.

399
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 3: I think I don't know about you, guys, but I'm

400
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 3: pretty sure this is one of our favorite dog evolution facts.

401
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 3: They evolved muscles, physical musculature around the eye, socket to

402
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 3: help them convey info to humans. Puppy dog guys are

403
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 3: a real evolutionary grift.

404
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 2: This is my least favorite thing because my dog, who

405
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 2: is asleep behind me right now, very happy, very content.

406
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 2: But when she's awake and I'm doing something and I'm busy,

407
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 2: like sitting here at the desk researching or something, she

408
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 2: will wink at me. She will stare at me until

409
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 2: I make eye contact with her, then she will wink.

410
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: And she's doing it on purpose, you could tell. And

411
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: I don't know what she means or why she's doing it,

412
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 2: but it freaks me out.

413
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 3: I hear you, man. I also feel like I love

414
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 3: how that's somewhat ominous. Yes, and I've met Meadow and

415
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 3: she's awesome.

416
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: She is awesome, But it's this. Have you ever you

417
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 2: guys ever watch Awquatine Hunger.

418
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 4: Force absolutely number one?

419
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 2: Hood Well, it reminds me of the hand Banana, Like,

420
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,719
Speaker 2: look up that episode the hand Banana that for some

421
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 2: reason I get those vibes. It creeps me out.

422
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 3: I also am a little freaked out by when it

423
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 3: feels like a dog is smiling. I think they can, yeah,

424
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 3: but is it just being you know too anthrocentric. It

425
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 3: feels like they smile and I had. You know, my

426
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 3: my last dog ed a legendary German shepherd. Uh. I

427
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 3: feel like he had a sense of humor. I feel

428
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 3: like he had. It's a humor because he would uh,

429
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 3: he would do something and then he would smile at me,

430
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 3: so he didn't know he was supposed to. Dylan is

431
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 3: saying smiling is often a sign of discomfort. However, Dylan

432
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 3: has not specified whether that's a sign of discomfort for

433
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 3: humans or for dogs. And mat is smiling and hurt.

434
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 2: It hurts. I'm uncomfortable.

435
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And that's a cultural thing too. Throughout different

436
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 3: human civilizations. There are some parts of the world where

437
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 3: you just smile to avoid disagreeing with someone or saying something.

438
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 3: I'm thinking specifically of Thailand, which has the nickname the

439
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 3: Land of a Thousand Smiles.

440
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 2: Biting your tongue right.

441
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 3: Exactly. So this is crazy because the primary way a

442
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 3: dog encounters communication in the world around it is smell.

443
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 3: So a blind dog is kind of like a person

444
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,239
Speaker 3: who lost their sense of smell in that they can

445
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 3: still get around easily in their world, but a dog

446
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 3: without a sense of smell could be said to be

447
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 3: similar to a blind person because their environmental interactions can

448
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 3: be much more challenging. It's a weird way to think

449
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 3: about it, but it's worth mentioning because it does affect communication.

450
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a group of these like gray that are

451
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: back behind my house, and the only reason Meadow knows

452
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: they're there is because she smells them. I can see

453
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: them walking around back in the woods, but she doesn't

454
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: usually see them. But then all of a sudden, you'll

455
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: see her ears perk up and sniff the air, and

456
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: then she gets real riled up and like, oh, basically

457
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 2: get away from here kind of vibes. And it's only

458
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 2: because she smelled them.

459
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's again, there's so many facets to communication,

460
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 3: and talking or speaking is just one very small part

461
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 3: of that.

462
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 4: A pretty good companion piece to this episode would be

463
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 4: our recent discussion on pheromones and all of the ways

464
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 4: that chemical chemical communication.

465
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 3: I guess right, one hundred percent. Yeah, and good callback.

466
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 3: Speaking of speech and communication, we're going to pause and

467
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 3: introduce you to some sponsors we've returned all to say, yes,

468
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 3: you can sort of talk with animals and they can

469
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 3: sort of understand you in that like all the examples

470
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: we named, we can generally get the gist of basic stuff.

471
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: Oh you've got a poop, Oh you're hungry. Oh there's

472
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: some coyotes over there, you know.

473
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 2: But yo, did you know that.

474
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 4: There are tons of coyotes around here in Atlanta?

475
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: Oh?

476
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had no idea. I was recently looking to

477
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 4: adopt a pup and this is the woman from the

478
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 4: rescue situation told me about how we are just lousy

479
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 4: with coyotes, especially in the cab County area.

480
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I love reading the reports on neighborhood pages

481
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 3: where someone's like, have you lost a dog anybody in

482
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 3: this neighborhood?

483
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 2: Yeah?

484
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 4: No, I mean that's the thing. I do have indoor

485
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 4: outdoor animals, And it really has made me rethink that

486
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 4: I actually had no idea.

487
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: So good to know the old house. They look they

488
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: look like foxes that are way too big. What the

489
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: hell is that?

490
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: Crypt So definitely, and so many people, you know, maybe

491
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 3: not more familiar with the wilderness because they grew up

492
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: in or reside in cities, genuinely will mistake coyotes for dogs,

493
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 3: up to an including trying to pet them.

494
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

495
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you guys heard of the mained fox, the mained wolf.

496
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 3: Yes, I have heard of the mained wolf.

497
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: Dude, I discovered that thing in research for this episode,

498
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: and yeah, I am fully freaked out. Look at that

499
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 2: thing and then imagine one that's hairless or you know,

500
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: losing its hair or another, and then imagine a cup

501
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: of Caabra's.

502
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: Animate, like a skinny likely fox. Yeah, yeah, I wish

503
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 3: they're the proportion of their leg to head to torso

504
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 3: didn't bother me so much, I know.

505
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 4: YouTube deer yeah, YouTube headline deer fox Wolf.

506
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: Nope, yeah, exactly. And if you see footage of them walking,

507
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: they look sneaky. They untrustworthy.

508
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they also got like a weird black mohawk,

509
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 4: almost like a razorback pig or something.

510
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 3: That's the main Yeah baby, yeah. So all right, Look,

511
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 3: you can talk all the livelong evening to all sorts

512
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 3: of all sorts of non human animal companions, but there's

513
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: currently no real case of someone like debating the history

514
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 3: of the Right Brothers or the meaning of mortality and

515
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: the soul. No feline to date has made a hip

516
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 3: hop album, probably because they don't want to, but I

517
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 3: assume right, But for most of human history, again, anthrocentrism reigned.

518
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 3: We were convinced this communication didn't work because animals were

519
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: dumber than humans. Human exceptionalism. It's the argument that people

520
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 3: are at the top of the hierarchy of evolution because quote,

521
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: people are just the best the bee's knees. But it's myopic,

522
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 3: it's convenient, it's kind of self serving because humans, again,

523
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: we always have to bring this up, don't really have

524
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 3: an understanding of intelligence other than being able to function

525
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 3: successfully in a given environment. So that means if you

526
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 3: wake up in a mangrove swamp and there's a tiger there,

527
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 3: technically the tiger is the smartest one in the room.

528
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, at least for a while. But I

529
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: think the thing that trips me up with this kind

530
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: of discussion is just the fact of language as an invention,

531
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: as a technology, as a thing, right, because we humanity did,

532
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: for one reason or a thousand create this thing, and

533
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 2: then that thing appears to be the reason we're able

534
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 2: to do almost everything if yeah, everything that we do

535
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: together collectively like some big works, right, Language at least

536
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: played a very large part in all of that stuff.

537
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 2: So I think one of the bigger, biggest questions for

538
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: today is do other species and animals, especially ones that

539
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: we see working together a lot, everything from you know,

540
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: ants to cetaceans, is there a fully shared language with

541
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: complexity that we just cannot grasp with our understanding, right

542
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: and with our.

543
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 3: Language and with our hardware and our equipment. That's a

544
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 3: big part of it. Yeah, that's why the concept of

545
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 3: intelligence anthrocentrically put is so dangerous. Right, Humans, despite being

546
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 3: somewhat condescending historically to the natural world, humans also really

547
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 3: really want to talk with animals, like really want this

548
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,479
Speaker 3: one to work out, and so the human wants to

549
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 3: feel that there's this mutual exchange of ideas and concepts.

550
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 3: We're going to have a genuine dialogue and that creates

551
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 3: or that can create damning confirmation bias and otherwise really robust,

552
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 3: rigorous research. Like we mentioned Coco the gorilla briefly, there

553
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 3: also an equal shout out to Alex, the parent, who

554
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 3: is just heartbreaking. And we were talking about this a

555
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 3: little bit off air. Noel, you remember Alex, right, the parrot.

556
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I don't think I do. I remember Mango. Well,

557
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 4: what's the who's Alex?

558
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 3: Mao? Mago's the snitch parent. Yeah, Alex. The Gray Parents

559
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 3: a subject of some controversial research about human animal communication

560
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 3: and Alex. Alex sadly went viral with a quote that

561
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 3: we had at the at the top of our episode here.

562
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 3: His last known words were in English to his human partner,

563
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 3: his bonded partner and researcher, Alex. As she was leaving,

564
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 3: Alex looked at and said, you be good. I love you.

565
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 3: I'll see you tomorrow.

566
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 4: I know, never have I felt a feel about a

567
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 4: bird before this very moment.

568
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 3: Well that's the thing too, to that earlier point we made,

569
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: was he mimicking sound that he had been trained to mimic?

570
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 3: Or was it I want to know what love is

571
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 3: kind of situation? Was it a what song is that?

572
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 4: I don't know the artist is, I think wonder, but

573
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 4: it's a banger.

574
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: I want you to show want you to show me.

575
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 3: And so uh, these assumptions, these desires of long stymy

576
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: the science and our question is what if that is changing?

577
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: Could new research, tech and new cooperative endeavors make our

578
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: big wish of talking to animals come true? It's it's similar.

579
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 3: If so, it'd be similar to what we talked about

580
00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: in the past with humanity literally creating superpowers and ghost

581
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 3: through technology. Right, And you could also say, kind of

582
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 3: to your point about languages. Technology, it's so important for

583
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 3: the human experiment because it allows us to speak to

584
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 3: the dead, right or to learn from the dead. You know,

585
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 3: pretty powerful when you think about it that way. So

586
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 3: maybe the way that we're making all these amazing things

587
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 3: happen now, maybe something similar will happen with animals. I

588
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 3: don't know. I think.

589
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: I got my hopes, so Ben, I got my way. Yes,

590
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: there's there's some cool stuff going on out there. All

591
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: you got to do is be super super positive about

592
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: the things AI can do. That's all you gotta do.

593
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 2: Just be really excited about AI, and then there's some

594
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: cool stuff coming up.

595
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's a give and take for sure. I

596
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 3: mean we also one thing I'm sure we all saw

597
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 3: this too. One thing that had a real flash in

598
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 3: the pan moment that a lot of people were hopeful

599
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 3: about was the idea of the paw pads, the button

600
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 3: pads that your dog could use. Uh as you can

601
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 3: tell you. Yeah, he was in the back. It's bull

602
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 3: it's blarky.

603
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: And also this this cardinal has really giving me the

604
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 2: old stink eye.

605
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, this button communication craze. We've all I think we've

606
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 3: all seen the videos.

607
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 5: Right.

608
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 3: Someone has their dog and they've got something that looks

609
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 3: like an old ne e S power pad on the

610
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 3: living room floor and they're like, oh, you know, Buster

611
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 3: or mcguiver or whatever, do you want to go outside?

612
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 3: And then the dog hits a button and it's a

613
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 3: recorded voice going like yes, mother, I would enjoy a

614
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 3: constitution or whatever.

615
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 5: Is Well, it's because the human partner can program and

616
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 5: record what the buttons say, right.

617
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 2: And there's some really astonishing videos out there, and people

618
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: who you know, have been using those buttons with their

619
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: Kanine Companish for a long time and it appears to

620
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: be super effective, at least in the footage we get

621
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: to see.

622
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 3: That's a very important point. Yeah, so you will not

623
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 3: see unsuccessful versions of this. You'll see versions where a

624
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 3: dog wants to treat and they walk over to the

625
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: pad and they hit the button that says treat or

626
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 3: wants to go on a walk, and it hits the

627
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 3: button that's signals walk. You could also code it to

628
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 3: have more complex things like hey, Kujo, do you want

629
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 3: to go see grandmother? The idea goes, if this stuff works,

630
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 3: the dog understands enough about what you're saying to select

631
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 3: a yes or no answer. But then, you know, you

632
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 3: could alternatively say, hey, Kujo, do you want to go

633
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: to the vet and get your balls cut off? And

634
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 3: Kujo could hit a button that says Sharon again, your

635
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 3: constant betrayal is ruining our relationship. Like you can just

636
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: type whatever is the point.

637
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. There have been examples that were caught on video

638
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: where let's say a couple is working in their home

639
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: office and there's a video that's running live downstairs where

640
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 2: the buttons are set up, and the dog goes down

641
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: there and starts growling and then runs over to buttons

642
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: and hits.

643
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 3: Stranger out five, stranger outside.

644
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 4: Stranger, you know.

645
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: And it's like that. It's tough to argue with that

646
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: kind of response where the dog is attempting to communicate

647
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 2: something it is experiencing to its you know, its person.

648
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.

649
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, fully agree. And this is not we're asking if

650
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 3: this works. We have to remember it's not itself an

651
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 3: original technology. This is part of what we call alternative

652
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 3: communication tech, and it's been around for quite some time.

653
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 3: It's been very helpful for people who have certain levels

654
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: of autism, or suffer from neurological conditions or encountered a stroke,

655
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. In some ways, it's very

656
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 3: very similar to this, and I keep getting hung up

657
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 3: on it. I think we all do. Does the dog

658
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 3: understand the conversation taking place? Or is it just showing

659
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: how effective operant conditioning can be. You know, is it

660
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 3: responding to you and the content of what you're saying,

661
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: or is it more your body language and your smell

662
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 3: and your intonation and the thousand other signals you send

663
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 3: out that you are not aware of. But the dog

664
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 3: clocks immediately.

665
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 4: It tends toward the latter. Not to be a web

666
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 4: blanket or anything, but that just that kind of condition

667
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 4: is powerful. And you know, we know dogs, domesticated animals,

668
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 4: dogs in particular, are pretty good at picking up on

669
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 4: that kind of stuff, or you know, they're trainable.

670
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the interesting things that came out

671
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: of that Geneva study I mentioned earlier in the episode.

672
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 2: They they did find that the patterns of stress and

673
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 2: intonation in whatever is being said end up being one

674
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 2: of the most important things for a dog to feel,

675
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 2: to seem like it's understanding what's being said. So not

676
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 2: even the words themselves as much, so like the way

677
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: words are formed, but it's how you say it. When

678
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 2: you say you want to go to see Grandma or

679
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 2: you know, hey, meadow, and like right.

680
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 3: Now they're probably perked up.

681
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: Nope, she's fast asleep, she's fine. But if I say

682
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: it in that way, I know she's I'm going to

683
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: get a response. And it's not because I've trained her

684
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: to do that. It's because she knows or she has

685
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 2: almost like learned right over time. When I talk like that,

686
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 2: something good is going to be following that.

687
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 3: Right exactly. Yeah. So so what your dog heres is

688
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 3: when you say want to go for a walk, your

689
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 3: dog heres baba da ba da bah.

690
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

691
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 3: But if you say do you want to go for

692
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 3: a walk, yeah, it's not the same, it's not. It

693
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 3: reminds me of that excellent moment in pop music history

694
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 3: when a spiteful Italian made a song that sounded like English.

695
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and it was a hit, right, it was

696
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: a hit.

697
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, And he pretty much did it because I don't

698
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 3: know about this.

699
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 4: What was the song?

700
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: No?

701
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 3: I think what we'll do here is if you're okay

702
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 3: with the guys, let's just play a clip of it.

703
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: Oh okay, you gotta find a place that will recognize

704
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 2: I don't remember the intro to this one.

705
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,399
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going past the intro where

706
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 3: he's teaching. Okay, formula, do you prison coolin is mini

707
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 3: at cause you wow? Okay, we're not even gonna spell it,

708
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 3: but here we go.

709
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 4: Wait a times, hoping the same, then maybe get to

710
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 4: come above time. I'm grooving hard, y'all.

711
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: Oh man, don't sue us, Adriano and your representatives.

712
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 4: What are they saying? What are they yelling at me

713
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 4: about it?

714
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 3: It's totally made up?

715
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 4: Cool got it?

716
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 3: It sounds like English, made it up to sound like English,

717
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 3: So if you didn't speak English, based on the intonation,

718
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: you could think it's about anything, any number.

719
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 4: Of positive, happy things, fascinating.

720
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 2: It's not a banger.

721
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 4: I couldn't agree that. I'm putting it on my dance

722
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 4: party playlist.

723
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 3: Your certified summer gold playlist.

724
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, you've still got a few few days left to

725
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 4: maximize summer grooves.

726
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 2: Can I throw something in your real quick?

727
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 4: Guys?

728
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: I mean, this is one of the words of the

729
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 2: day for me at least in the research this week,

730
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 2: Prosody and I, I think I've heard this. I think

731
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 2: I've heard us say this before on this show, proso

732
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: d Y. That is the quote patterns of stress and

733
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: intonation in a language, which is exactly what that person

734
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 2: was using to make it sound like English.

735
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

736
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, the cadence there, but there the right emphasis on

737
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 4: the right selab.

738
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

739
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 3: And I wasn't expecting us to get to that, frankly

740
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 3: awesome reference, but it does. I do think it's a

741
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 3: cool analogue to what maybe your dog is hearing, right,

742
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 3: because your dog doesn't really speak your language outside of

743
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 3: knowing a few terms. Yes, and it's not because at all.

744
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: It's not because we're not saying dogs are dumb, quite

745
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 3: the opposite. They just have a vastly different tool set

746
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 3: of communication avenues.

747
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I guess you know. I'm sorry I keep

748
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 4: harping on cats. Sounds like I'm picking on them, But

749
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 4: I sometimes wonder do the cats not under stand that

750
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 4: cadence the same way or do they just not give

751
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 4: a crap.

752
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:09,240
Speaker 3: I saw a study years back that said day wired

753
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 3: up some cat brains. They said the brain activity, the

754
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 3: cognitive activity, in your cat's head when you call its name,

755
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 3: proves that it does know you are talking to it

756
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 3: about like it. It just doesn't care. Okay, that's it,

757
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 3: And that that does seem to be a pretty solid

758
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 3: experiment because we have data right from brain scans, from monitoring.

759
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 3: But what say we pause for word from our sponsors

760
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 3: and we come back with some examples of how these

761
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 3: experiments can go so hilariously wrong. We now introduced to

762
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 3: the stage clever hands. Oh yes, the hardest, Yes, the

763
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 3: smartest of our equine ends apparently early nineteen hundreds. He

764
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 3: could tell us a little bit about this.

765
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 4: He did stuff with his hoofs, with his quiet. He

766
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 4: was like he was like a regular mister red.

767
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: Well, but he was math based rights so much.

768
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 4: That's right, that's right, that's right.

769
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, the way they got mister ed to quote

770
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 3: unquote talk on that so weird.

771
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 4: No, on the gums, he wouldn't see the peanut butter,

772
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 4: but that's what he was like eating it from the inside.

773
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's gross. I can't believe they made a whole

774
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 3: series that just hinged on that one idea.

775
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it gets in all kinds of high jinks. Clever Hans.

776
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 3: Yes.

777
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 4: Indeed the early nineteen hundreds. For a while, everyone, including

778
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 4: Hans's trainer, the closest human to this creature, believed that

779
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 4: he could do maths, real, real good. The trainer would

780
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 4: pose math problems and Hans would listen and then clippity clop,

781
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 4: clippity clop the sert with his hooves on the wooden floor.

782
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 4: M hm.

783
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 3: And people thought that Hawns was better at math than

784
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 3: a lot of human school children. The pickle of it

785
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 3: is the badger in the bag here is that people

786
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 3: asked Hans math questions when the trainer wasn't there, And

787
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 3: if they asked when the trainer wasn't there, this poor

788
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 3: guy had no idea what to do. He's staring at

789
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 3: people like, well, are you gonna give me a carrot

790
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 3: or an apple or something? Or he just gobbledygook in me.

791
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 3: He was he was not a polymath of the equine world.

792
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: He was getting unconscious cues from his trainer. So without

793
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 3: those cues, Hans didn't know what to do.

794
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 2: Interesting, so like the way his trainer would look would

795
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: show him what the answer was, or like movements or

796
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 2: I don't know, it makes me wonder if Hans was

797
00:45:58,560 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 2: just like.

798
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 4: You can't make me do these tricks again. The trainer

799
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 4: wasn't like trying to pull a grift. I think he

800
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 4: believed this was going on as well, and maybe did

801
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 4: not realize he was giving the game away.

802
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 3: That's what we suspect because Hans would start his response

803
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 3: to a question by tapping his hoof, and then he

804
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 3: would notice, because horses are very observant animals, that people

805
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 3: around him were getting more tense as including the trainer,

806
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 3: as he was approaching the correct number of taps. And

807
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: then so you'd say like, hey, Hawns, what's uh five

808
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 3: plus four? And Hawns would think about it for a

809
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 3: second and would look like he was thinking. He's kind

810
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 3: of looking around to get the you know, to read

811
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 3: the room. And so as he's getting closer to eight,

812
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 3: people are leading in yeah, and he gets denied and

813
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 3: everyone's like, oh my god, he's done it again. He

814
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 3: just stops, and he just stops yeah, and he gets it. So,

815
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 3: I mean, dogs are even better than horses at picking

816
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 3: up those cues. And it's true that the vast majority

817
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 3: of dog owners don't know the full extent of the

818
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 3: signals we're communicating. To our furry pals, especially especially smell right,

819
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 3: like you could say, you know, I think a lot

820
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 3: of us dog lovers f had situation where you were sad, right,

821
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 3: you didn't say anything to your dog about it, but

822
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 3: your dog somehow new and then came and like cuddled

823
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 3: up next to you or walked up to him, whimpered

824
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 3: or something. You know, Have you guys ever experienced that,

825
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 3: like your dog seems to have clocked something about your

826
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 3: mental state.

827
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I just yeah, it just feels like dogs are

828
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 4: That's why people love them so much. That there's a

829
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 4: certain intuition there and a certain like I don't know,

830
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 4: ability to kind of have those types of exchanges, whether

831
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 4: they're real or imagine. But I think any dog lover

832
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 4: would say that they're definitely real. And I, again, as

833
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 4: a relatively new dog person, I kind of feel that.

834
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 4: So I don't know.

835
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: With I don't know, I feel like I've just got

836
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 2: a distorted lens here, But I feel like I had

837
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 2: that with one of my cats when I was a kid,

838
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: When I was feeling low, this specific cat would do

839
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 2: the whole lay on your chest thing, but only and

840
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 2: the specific time. So I don't love but again that's

841
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 2: my perception of a moment and behaviors right that are

842
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: that I can't fully interpret other than how it's affecting me.

843
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 2: So yuh oh, that's an interesting concept.

844
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 3: It's a tough one, right We also, as we noted earlier,

845
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 3: with the buttons, with the button pads, the paw pads,

846
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 3: you'll see a lot of videos of dogs appearing not

847
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 3: to just hit one button to say walk, but like

848
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 3: you were saying, Matt, Mom, stranger outside. This would imply

849
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 3: that they were making full sentences and phrases right right now.

850
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 3: As much as we hate to be those folks at

851
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 3: the party or at the dog park, the current scientific

852
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 3: consensus is that in these situations, your pooch is not

853
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 3: responding to the conversation. It's responding to the human behavior.

854
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 3: I can tell you're excited. It's excited too.

855
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 4: Oh.

856
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 3: This is the tone that guy always uses when I'm

857
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 3: getting a treat, you know. So I know that I

858
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 3: can hit this button get a treat. But that's just conditioning.

859
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 2: But I do know, just as not to be contradictory,

860
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 2: just to state that I have observed in my life

861
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 2: doing the tone, intonation and kind of thing that we're

862
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,399
Speaker 2: talking about but using a different keyword. And I think

863
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: it is something at the connection between that intonation and

864
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 2: a specific keyword or two to where I can say

865
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 2: you want to go for a run? Want to go?

866
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: Or you want to go for a run, and she's like, no,

867
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 2: I don't know what you mean. But then if I

868
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 2: use the W word that I'm I'm not going to

869
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,919
Speaker 2: use her right now because she's right behind me, would

870
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 2: she would flip out and be excited?

871
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 3: Okay? Yeah? Yeah. I think there's definitely a trigger with

872
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 3: some phrases and with training. Right. It also reminds us

873
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 3: of the earlier experiments with human language when I can't

874
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 3: remember which monarch it was, but he became convinced that

875
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 3: if you raised children without any language at all, they

876
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 3: would naturally begin speaking the original language, the divine language,

877
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 3: whatever that was. Yeah, it turned out no, they didn't.

878
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 3: Their cognitive years or their formative years were robbed of language,

879
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 3: and life was very difficult for them. I think we

880
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 3: did something more ridiculous history about those folks. Yea, yeah,

881
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 3: But anyhow, this gets us to the continuing research. You know,

882
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 3: we are going to talk about some more different types

883
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 3: of research, some initiatives some specific experiments with specific kinds

884
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 3: of animals, including cetaceans, elephants, birds, cephalopods, and primates. Maybe

885
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 3: maybe we start there right because we mentioned Coco earlier

886
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 3: and humans or technically primates, so logically those two things

887
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 3: would be close enough together to maybe have the best

888
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 3: chance of pure communication.

889
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: The hope at least is that the way the brains

890
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 2: are formed, right, our brains are their brains, there's gonna

891
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 2: be something in there that makes that magical connection of language. Hopefully,

892
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 2: even though we have yet to observe, you know, primates

893
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 2: with a sophisticated enough vocalization, you know, series of patterns

894
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,879
Speaker 2: to call it something language, right, we haven't observed it yet.

895
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 2: But again, as you stayed before, Ben, maybe we're just

896
00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 2: not fully able to pick things up in a way

897
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 2: yet that there is communication happening, right. That's why I

898
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 2: think about some of the other animal species we're going

899
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 2: to talk about, like maybe we literally just don't hear

900
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 2: them when they're talking, right, because they can pick up

901
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 2: different frequencies and things like that. But I think that's

902
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 2: been tested actually in many cases, especially when we get

903
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: into the whale communication. Like, oh, like, could you create

904
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: a whole language with that sound maybe.

905
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 3: And elephants as well, that that's a trippy one too. Yeah,

906
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 3: so okay, we have a reasonable assumption, but an assumption nonetheless,

907
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 3: that it might be easier to speak with primate relatives.

908
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 3: And we know that physiologically, your average gorilla doesn't have

909
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 3: the hardware needed in the throat and the larynx to

910
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 3: create the vocalizations that humans use in language, or to

911
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 3: create all of them. So why not use sign language?

912
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 3: And did you have that moment where you realize that

913
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 3: different languages have different versions of sign language as well?

914
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 4: No, I didn't know that, I don't think, but that

915
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:08,959
Speaker 4: makes a lot of sense.

916
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it weirded me. I was very proud of learning

917
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 3: some asl not with fluency, and I couldn't wait to

918
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 3: show it off. And the person I talked to, who

919
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 3: was very nice, hipped me to the fact that, no,

920
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,240
Speaker 3: you're just sort of doing a hand version of yelling

921
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,919
Speaker 3: at someone in English after they told you they don't

922
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 3: speak English. You know, the classic tourist thing. What if

923
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 3: I ask louder? So, Yeah, we're in that situation with

924
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 3: a lot of primate communication stuff, because the idea there

925
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 3: is we can still count it as talking if we're

926
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 3: communicating in sign language. And that's where you see those

927
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 3: amazing clips like the ones who were describing nol with

928
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 3: Robin Williams meeting Coco and who else was was it

929
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 3: mister Rogers?

930
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 4: Mister Rogers also flee from the red hot chili peppers.

931
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 3: I don't know why that makes sense?

932
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong here. Wasn't Jane

933
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 2: Goodall involved in a lot of that? Or was she

934
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 2: just a part of it on the side?

935
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 4: And do I just have a college she was Coco adjacent?

936
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 4: She's definitely like gorillas in the misted adjacent. Okay, but

937
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 4: maybe so, I mean she certainly would have been aware

938
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 4: of Coco.

939
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, she would have to have been aware. So

940
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 3: Coco gets this huge amount of scientific interest and the

941
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 3: spotlight because her sign language is seen by her supporters

942
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 3: as not just exhibiting empathy, but also being capable of

943
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 3: doing things like arguing or creatively conveying concepts by making

944
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 3: new word phrase groups. Right, So it's a big indicator

945
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 3: of language. If you have let's say you have two

946
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 3: separate symbols. One of them is for trash and one

947
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 3: of them is for cat and then you show you

948
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 3: show this gorilla a raccoon, and instead of saying what's that,

949
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 3: it says, oh, trash cat.

950
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 4: Exactly makes sense, also known as trash Panda, also.

951
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:18,720
Speaker 3: Known as trash Panda. Yeah, man, So that's that's the idea.

952
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 3: But the issue again with Coco became that perhaps the

953
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,359
Speaker 3: humans who had bonded with this gorilla and with other

954
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 3: gorillas and similar experiments, perhaps they were just kind of

955
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 3: hearing what they wanted to hear, or perhaps they were

956
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 3: just sort of like setting someone up to respond for

957
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 3: a treat or affection or something like that. And it's

958
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 3: heartbreaking to know that's a controversy because those videos are just.

959
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 4: So heartwork they are, but it's also a powerful thing.

960
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 4: That confirmation bias can be a real powerful thing. And Matt,

961
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 4: to your point about Jane Goodall, she didn't meet Coco

962
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 4: one time, and she looked at Coco as a confirmation

963
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 4: of what she had long believed about these primates, that

964
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 4: they were sentient in that way. I mean, of course

965
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 4: they're sentient, but they were communicative and had the ability

966
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 4: to connect on a direct level. And when Coco passed

967
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 4: away in twenty eighteen, Jane Goodall said, Coco, you taught

968
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,720
Speaker 4: us much about the gorilla intellect, and you were much loved.

969
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 3: You will be missed.

970
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 4: And then it says in this Instagram post, though doctor

971
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 4: Goodall only had the chance to meet Coco once, her

972
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 4: interaction remains a remarkable one for Jane, and all Coco

973
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 4: taught us will live on as Jane study chimpanzees. The

974
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 4: insights of Coco's life as a gorilla with tremendous communication

975
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 4: skills were essentially understanding more about great apes, and she

976
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 4: lived as a reminder of what Jane had always believed,

977
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 4: that we are not so different from the rest of

978
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 4: the animal kingdom. So I'm not saying she was wrong.

979
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 4: I'm just saying, like, when you work towards something your

980
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 4: whole life and then you see something that confirms that

981
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:58,919
Speaker 4: it's easy to want that thing to be true.

982
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, well there is.

983
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 2: I just remember Jane Goodall's work span so much right,

984
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 2: and there's so so many interesting things. I recall her

985
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 2: looking at chimpanzees, like early on in the what if seventies,

986
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 2: maybe sixty seventies, when chimpanzees were being first taught like language,

987
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 2: sign language, and then this concept that potentially they could

988
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 2: understand written language in the written word, which was that

989
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 2: was always the big one for me. I could a

990
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 2: chimpanzee or you know, any great ape read a sign

991
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 2: and understand what it says. And when you see some

992
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 2: of that, some of that stuff, you just realize, oh, well,

993
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 2: maybe there is the capacity for at least written language,

994
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 2: even if you don't have the hardware right to make

995
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 2: the sounds. Maybe could write h.

996
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's similar to those other assistive technologies that have

997
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 3: been used for people with strokes. Could you could you

998
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 3: just make it like if the mind is already working

999
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,439
Speaker 3: and capable of doing that, the capable of functioning that level,

1000
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 3: then we just need to get at the right toye

1001
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 3: and the right tools. And that's pretty amazing if true.

1002
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 2: You know.

1003
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 3: Also, I've got to give a shout out here as

1004
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 3: we're wrapping up part one of this exploration, I've got

1005
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 3: to give a shout out to everybody who owns a

1006
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 3: husky who heard us say arguing is indicative of communications.

1007
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 3: Crazy argumentative. Yeah, huskies will just not not stop. They

1008
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 3: got a lot of sass.

1009
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 2: It's still asleep, by the way, that she's.

1010
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 3: Still asleep because she knows it was you. If you

1011
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 3: get a real husky in there, no, she'd smell it first.

1012
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 3: But with this guy's we're kind of ending, we're kind

1013
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 3: of pausing in media arrests. We haven't gotten to cephalopods

1014
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 3: or seti or a couple of other organizations we want

1015
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 3: to talk about, or even birds or elephants. I oh gosh,

1016
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 3: it keeps going citations whales, whales.

1017
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 2: Dude, let's give let's give everybody a little bit of homework.

1018
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 2: If you choose to do it. You're not gonna get

1019
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 2: a grade on this and this is and you're not gonna,

1020
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 2: you know, get in trouble if you don't do this,

1021
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 2: But just ask some homework if you want to. In

1022
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 2: between this episode and the next part that comes out,

1023
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 2: look up something called the Earth Species Project and something

1024
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 2: called Project Cetacean Translation Initiative. Check those out and see

1025
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 2: what you think about them, because we're gonna have a

1026
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 2: whole conversation about those and other animals and the attempts

1027
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 2: to get humankind to be able to not only understand

1028
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 2: what animals specifically are vocalizing, but also to be able

1029
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 2: to revocalize to those.

1030
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 3: Animals right to speak with to meet them where they're at. Yes, linguistically,

1031
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 3: and this is an exciting time to be alive and

1032
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 3: to learn about this research. Folks, we can't wait to

1033
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 3: hear your animal anecdotes. You have come to the right place.

1034
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 3: You can always send us cat pictures, dog pictures, pet pictures.

1035
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 2: We love it.

1036
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 3: Tell us your weirdest situations with animal communication, and please

1037
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 3: tune in in the near future for chapter two of

1038
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 3: Can We Actually Talk to Animals? In the meantime, you

1039
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 3: can call us on a telephone. You can send us

1040
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 3: an email. You can find us on the line.

1041
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 4: Yes, indeed, find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff where

1042
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 4: we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where

1043
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 4: it gets crazy, on ax fka, Twitter, and on YouTube

1044
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 4: with video content for you to enjoy. On Instagram and TikTok. However,

1045
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 4: we are Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1046
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 2: You can also call us. Our phone number is one

1047
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 2: eight three three st dwy TK. Turn those letters into numbers.

1048
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 2: You'll figure it out, and then you'll find yourself in

1049
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 2: a voicemail system. You'll hear somebody's voice, you know it's beat,

1050
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 2: and you'll hear some sounds like some music, and then

1051
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 2: leave your message. You've got three minutes. Say whatever you want,

1052
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname, and let us know in

1053
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 2: the message if we can use your name and message

1054
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 2: on the air. If you would instead like to send

1055
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 2: us an email, you sure can.

1056
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

1057
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet I'm afraid sometimes the

1058
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 3: void writes back and just for the vibe check now, folks,

1059
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 3: the email us looking for random fact. It's probably going

1060
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 3: to be animal related, at least for this week. I

1061
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 3: just think we got super into this one conspiracy at

1062
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio dot com.

1063
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

1064
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1065
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.