WEBVTT - Harvard's Frei on How Leaders Can Empower 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.760 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.960 Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. Well, we caught up with our 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:09.239 next guest back in June. She knows a lot about 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:13.000 leadership struggles and successes. She is the perfect person to 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.800 catch up with again right now when many would say, Alex, 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:19.720 leadership around the globe, especially when it comes to pandemic, 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.959 is definitely lacking. Frances Fry is Professor of Technology and 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:27.600 Operations Management at Harvard Business School. She was tapped to 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:31.040 be Uber's first Senior VP of Leadership and Strategy. She's 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:33.839 also worked at We Were Her new book that was 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:36.040 out this year, we talked with her about it, Unleash, 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:40.280 the Unapologetic leaders Guide to empowering everyone around you. She 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.839 joins us on the phone from Cambridge, Massachusetts. Francis, it's 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:47.320 so great to have you back with us. How are you. Oh, 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.599 I'm doing very well and this is just energy producing 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.720 and Alex, it's a pleasure to meet you well. And 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:54.200 I've got to ask you first of all, are you 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.880 gonna be back at Harvard Business School come the fall? Um, 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:01.680 I will not be going to campus this fall. I 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.920 have some faculty will We're going to have hybrid classrooms. 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:08.800 But I'm pretty much of the When there is a vaccine, 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:10.640 I will go back on campus. Otherwise I have a 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:16.640 magnificent home studio. Magnificent. Alright, they're jealous, So talk to 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.319 us a little bit about the leadership. I mean, I 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:21.520 feel like there has been so much for you to 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:26.039 kind of, um delve into right now in this environment. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.920 You know, global leaders and how they're dealing with the pandemic. 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.920 Obviously everybody kind of seems to be doing their own 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.560 thing in many in many cases, Um, what are some 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.119 of the leadership stories right now that you're finding interesting? Yeah? So, 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.480 I I think one of the tenants of great leadership 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.000 is that leadership is about others. Like and if you 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.320 line up the global leaders, just use whatever metric you 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.480 want on who does it feel like it's about them 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:54.600 versus it's about others. So I guess self distracted versus 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:58.240 other distracted, and then also rank just how you think 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.040 they're doing with the pandemic. I think there's like a 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:06.160 crazy high correlation. Those leaders that are clearly in it 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.520 for others are doing super well with the pandemic, and 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:14.040 those leaders that are disproportionately self distracted, are really struggling 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.520 with the pandemic. Um not to bring gender into it, 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.239 like right now, but is there a distinction between male 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.560 and female leaders in relation to that? So I don't 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.799 personally think that it's a gendered thing, but the data 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:34.480 are pretty overwhelming that women at this moment in time 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.840 tends to be more undistracted and tend to be handling 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:43.600 the pandemic better. So you can't deny its correlation. Whether 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.680 gender is a causal thing, I would need more evidence 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:52.400 of that. So what what are other reasons why that 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:57.040 would be the case. I think it's because it's right now. 0:02:57.280 --> 0:02:59.240 You know, it's like small samples, like how many people 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.800 we have right now. And the reason the reason I 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.840 hesitate is that, you know, I look at fas Medela 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:07.600 at Microsoft, and he's like one of the most other 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:11.800 focused people on the planet, So he could be an outlier. 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.040 I see great leaders of both genders, and I see 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:20.079 overly self distracted leaders of both genders. For world leaders today, 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:25.359 there's no question about the correlation. But again, it's just 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:31.560 it's too hard for me to think that it's gender 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.640 is just so much more fluid than we have thought 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:39.200 historically as well, I just have a hard time concluding it, 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:41.560 but I will. I'll leave it up to others to 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.640 do their research on him. It's a great point. Hey, 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.640 One thing I want to ask you. You shared with 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:49.200 us some talking points, and one thing you are stressing 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:51.320 is building a foundation of trust that people become willing 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.280 to be led. It's interesting we caught up with our 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:57.520 Andy Brown of Bloomberg New Economy and earlier talked about 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.000 you know, leaders are kind of, you know, potentially in 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:05.800 a position right now where citizens are counting on them 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.040 to get them through the virus, and as a result, 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:11.520 may be willing to give up a lot in order 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:13.800 for those leaders to do that. And that includes things 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.640 like civil liberties, and I just think about testing and 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:18.360 tracing and all the things that we might need to 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:20.360 give up in order to get through this virus. And 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:25.039 so what's the balance between you know, building up that 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.039 trust that people can be led to also making sure 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.359 that you don't take advantage of those people. Well, I 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.799 think that's also where the other distracted versus self distracted. 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.440 So it's you know, a benevolent dictator is often what 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:40.960 people like until they think of the successor, right, and 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.720 then it's like where it falls down. So it's it's 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:46.600 like great in the known hands. Like if I was 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:48.880 in New Zealand, would I give up some of my 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:54.919 civil liberties? I would because I totally trust the leadership there. Um, 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.760 But what I do it in other places? No, because 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.159 I don't trust the leadership. So I think if you 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.440 have a foundation of test, people will be more likely 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:05.719 to give up civil liberties. That's I think where the 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.320 causal part is. We have like thirty seconds left for 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:12.479 this portion of it. But um, if that comes with fines, 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:14.560 like if the leadership said you have to do this 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:16.560 or if you don't, you have to pay ten grand, 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.640 where does that fall into the leadership scale? Great question? 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.760 I think that will I think that will um lose 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.719 trust because you're essentially saying the rich don't have to 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:30.560 do it. I see, because then you're basically willing to 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:32.520 not do it because you don't care about the money. Right, 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:37.760 buy your way out. That's unequal. It's pen that angle. 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.040 That's kind of like we go back to the Varsity 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.360 Blues a little bit, right, and and Becky, I want 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:47.720 to understand a little bit more about those that sort 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:52.040 of lead because they're successful themselves. Versus want to help 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.000 others be successful. I feel like I've been in the 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:56.800 corporate world for a very long time and I have 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:00.880 seen people who only care about themselves get consisted certantly ahead. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:03.880 When is it kind of like you know, karma up 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:08.520 here like that, I want a T shirt Karma u 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.719 uh So here's what I'll say is that one of 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:18.440 the problems is that great individual contributors usually have a 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:23.159 low ceiling in most organizations, and I think that's problematic, 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.640 Like we should be able to have people that are 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:31.760 individual contributors also aspire and move up an organization and 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:35.000 not have to put them into a place of management 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:37.960 that they're ill equipped to do. But most organizations the 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.320 only way for you to rise is to become a manager, 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.600 and so ambitious individual contributors shift over there. So I 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.000 think we can fix some of that structurally. And then 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.520 the other thing is that management is a skill that 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:55.279 can be taught. I'm saying that almost school, the Harvard 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:59.160 Business School, so I believe it very much, But particularly 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:03.159 in tech companies, where you know, people go there for 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:08.400 their first job, didn't come out of a business school curriculum. 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.400 They haven't been taught it. It's not that hard to 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:13.520 teach it, and it's not that hard to learn it, 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:18.120 but it does need to be taught. So I do 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.320 wonder right now we're at this interesting time, Francis where 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.680 I feel like UM management structures are being taxed on 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:27.920 so many different levels, right, dealing with the virus, dealing 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:32.200 with you know, a lousy economy, UM, also trying to 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.000 up diversity issues in light of what happened with George 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.600 Floyd and others, the tragic death of UM, and trying 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.840 to create equalities. And I do wonder, you know, women 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.080 have made progress, but there's a long way to go. 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.280 I do wonder how it all looks as there are 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.080 so many different stresses on the system. Do we get 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.680 any better on any of this? Well, Fortunately, as we 0:07:55.800 --> 0:08:00.520 get better with diversity and inclusion, we will get better 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.480 at all of the other performance. So the solutions of 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:07.320 fellow the problems is in is in the solution to others. 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.720 So when we have more diverse perspectives, we will be 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:14.360 more creative, more rigorous, more innovative, and that will then 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.560 help with solve the other problems. So I think the 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:23.080 most urgent challenge organizations have today is to be more 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:28.280 inclusive of diverse perspective and diverse experiences. But is it different. 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.640 Do you think it's different from a year ago, two 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:32.720 years ago? Do you think there is really something different? 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.199 I do for two two reasons. One is, we all 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:42.200 saw the murder of George Floyd and several other people 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.480 up to that, but that one in particular like happened 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:48.400 in a consciousness. I don't know if we were all 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.480 home at the same time and we were all watching it. 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:52.840 And when I look at the people that are speaking 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.680 out about it, it's not it's everyone speaking out on 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:02.240 behalf of the need for under represented to stop being underrepresented. 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.480 And so it feels different to me, and in my 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:09.560 interactions with company, it sure does feel like a very 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.880 palpable thing. But good news is that the moral imperative 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.760 lines up with the business imperative here, diverse perspectives will 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:21.079 make you much better. It's also the right thing to do. 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.080 But again, that's another thing that we've been talking about 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.160 for years, and I feel like it's still taking a 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.560 long time right, which kind of leads to my next 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.280 question is um I've seen it through my friends, work, 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:35.000 through you know, my career, my lifespan. UM is that 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.080 people can be very good at managing up but very 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.040 bad at managing down. So you may be able to 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.719 do really well giving lip service to those kind of 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:48.439 things to like your superior, your superior superiors, but actually execution, UM, 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.800 I'm managing down is very different. Um, how do we 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:56.960 bridge that gap? Yeah? So if there are demographic tendencies 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.320 associated with some thrives on my team, I should be 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.840 held accountable for it. There's no amount of chatter that 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.600 I give to anyone that should overcome that performance school card. 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.960 But what if it does? What do you do? Then? 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:16.120 I invest in their competitors? Oh, okay, money, right, like 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:21.440 you you won't fright. So So in addition to that, 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:25.280 if you talk more about uh, the inclusion, how do 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.559 you take a group and set the tone, Like if 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.240 you were going into the job for the first air 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:32.920 you were advising you know the c you have a company, 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:34.720 and say, all right, this is your meeting. This is 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:36.280 how you set the tone. These are the this is 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.480 like the three things you need to do. Go. So 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:44.680 the first thing is that, um, I would look, are 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:48.160 there demographic tendencies associated with how people are achieving and 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:52.600 their sentiments? So my prep for the meeting is you know, 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.200 it's a whole organization women, but there's only five percent 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.520 women at the time. Then there's a demographic tendency. Are 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.520 we overloaded with black people at the bottom of an 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.160 organization and Latin next the middle and only white people 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.160 at the top. And then I would double click on 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.560 why and I can narrow it down for everyone. There's 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:16.280 only four reasons. It's either hiring, development, promotion, or retention. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.599 It's so it's super solvable, right, I mean, you just 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:22.320 look at the numbers, right, like, if you really do 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:24.520 the breakdown, it's going to be a very clear picture 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.280 of what's happening in your company. And then right, you 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.120 have to get then into the reasons why we were 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:37.280 the four things again, say it again for me. Hiring, development, promotion, retention, Okay, interesting, 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.719 I think she's starting a firm Francis and not quite sure. No, 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.400 I'm too tired for that, but I'm just really fascinating. 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.520 Developing can get left behind because you can fill a quota, 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:48.560 but you have to develop it too, and I think 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:50.600 that's where we wind up losing, say a lot of 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:52.920 women for example. That's why you get people you know 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:55.080 in the pipeline early on, right, but to lose them 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.160 along the way in terms of the higher positions. Francis, 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.839 you're always thought provoking. I knew Alex would love you. 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:03.320 Oh my god, I'm like, can we talk to her more? 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:05.920 We will bring her back, We will bring her back. Um, Francis, 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:07.440 thank you so much. Great to check in with you. 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.280 Francis Fry, Professor of Technology and Operations Management over at 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:14.120 Harvard Business School. Check out her book Unleashed, The Unapologetic 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.760 Leader's Guide to Empowering Everyone around You. It came out 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:19.760 this year, right. It's about you know, you have to 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:21.800 be comfortable, I think, as a leader to be to 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:22.959 empower others.