Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason
Speaker 1: Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. Well, we caught up with our
Speaker 1: next guest back in June. She knows a lot about
Speaker 1: leadership struggles and successes. She is the perfect person to
Speaker 1: catch up with again right now when many would say, Alex,
Speaker 1: leadership around the globe, especially when it comes to pandemic,
Speaker 1: is definitely lacking. Frances Fry is Professor of Technology and
Speaker 1: Operations Management at Harvard Business School. She was tapped to
Speaker 1: be Uber's first Senior VP of Leadership and Strategy. She's
Speaker 1: also worked at We Were Her new book that was
Speaker 1: out this year, we talked with her about it, Unleash,
Speaker 1: the Unapologetic leaders Guide to empowering everyone around you. She
Speaker 1: joins us on the phone from Cambridge, Massachusetts. Francis, it's
Speaker 1: so great to have you back with us. How are you. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm doing very well and this is just energy producing
Speaker 1: and Alex, it's a pleasure to meet you well. And
Speaker 1: I've got to ask you first of all, are you
Speaker 1: gonna be back at Harvard Business School come the fall? Um,
Speaker 1: I will not be going to campus this fall. I
Speaker 1: have some faculty will We're going to have hybrid classrooms.
Speaker 1: But I'm pretty much of the When there is a vaccine,
Speaker 1: I will go back on campus. Otherwise I have a
Speaker 1: magnificent home studio. Magnificent. Alright, they're jealous, So talk to
Speaker 1: us a little bit about the leadership. I mean, I
Speaker 1: feel like there has been so much for you to
Speaker 1: kind of, um delve into right now in this environment.
Speaker 1: You know, global leaders and how they're dealing with the pandemic.
Speaker 1: Obviously everybody kind of seems to be doing their own
Speaker 1: thing in many in many cases, Um, what are some
Speaker 1: of the leadership stories right now that you're finding interesting? Yeah? So,
Speaker 1: I I think one of the tenants of great leadership
Speaker 1: is that leadership is about others. Like and if you
Speaker 1: line up the global leaders, just use whatever metric you
Speaker 1: want on who does it feel like it's about them
Speaker 1: versus it's about others. So I guess self distracted versus
Speaker 1: other distracted, and then also rank just how you think
Speaker 1: they're doing with the pandemic. I think there's like a
Speaker 1: crazy high correlation. Those leaders that are clearly in it
Speaker 1: for others are doing super well with the pandemic, and
Speaker 1: those leaders that are disproportionately self distracted, are really struggling
Speaker 1: with the pandemic. Um not to bring gender into it,
Speaker 1: like right now, but is there a distinction between male
Speaker 1: and female leaders in relation to that? So I don't
Speaker 1: personally think that it's a gendered thing, but the data
Speaker 1: are pretty overwhelming that women at this moment in time
Speaker 1: tends to be more undistracted and tend to be handling
Speaker 1: the pandemic better. So you can't deny its correlation. Whether
Speaker 1: gender is a causal thing, I would need more evidence
Speaker 1: of that. So what what are other reasons why that
Speaker 1: would be the case. I think it's because it's right now.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like small samples, like how many people
Speaker 1: we have right now. And the reason the reason I
Speaker 1: hesitate is that, you know, I look at fas Medela
Speaker 1: at Microsoft, and he's like one of the most other
Speaker 1: focused people on the planet, So he could be an outlier.
Speaker 1: I see great leaders of both genders, and I see
Speaker 1: overly self distracted leaders of both genders. For world leaders today,
Speaker 1: there's no question about the correlation. But again, it's just
Speaker 1: it's too hard for me to think that it's gender
Speaker 1: is just so much more fluid than we have thought
Speaker 1: historically as well, I just have a hard time concluding it,
Speaker 1: but I will. I'll leave it up to others to
Speaker 1: do their research on him. It's a great point. Hey,
Speaker 1: One thing I want to ask you. You shared with
Speaker 1: us some talking points, and one thing you are stressing
Speaker 1: is building a foundation of trust that people become willing
Speaker 1: to be led. It's interesting we caught up with our
Speaker 1: Andy Brown of Bloomberg New Economy and earlier talked about
Speaker 1: you know, leaders are kind of, you know, potentially in
Speaker 1: a position right now where citizens are counting on them
Speaker 1: to get them through the virus, and as a result,
Speaker 1: may be willing to give up a lot in order
Speaker 1: for those leaders to do that. And that includes things
Speaker 1: like civil liberties, and I just think about testing and
Speaker 1: tracing and all the things that we might need to
Speaker 1: give up in order to get through this virus. And
Speaker 1: so what's the balance between you know, building up that
Speaker 1: trust that people can be led to also making sure
Speaker 1: that you don't take advantage of those people. Well, I
Speaker 1: think that's also where the other distracted versus self distracted.
Speaker 1: So it's you know, a benevolent dictator is often what
Speaker 1: people like until they think of the successor, right, and
Speaker 1: then it's like where it falls down. So it's it's
Speaker 1: like great in the known hands. Like if I was
Speaker 1: in New Zealand, would I give up some of my
Speaker 1: civil liberties? I would because I totally trust the leadership there. Um,
Speaker 1: But what I do it in other places? No, because
Speaker 1: I don't trust the leadership. So I think if you
Speaker 1: have a foundation of test, people will be more likely
Speaker 1: to give up civil liberties. That's I think where the
Speaker 1: causal part is. We have like thirty seconds left for
Speaker 1: this portion of it. But um, if that comes with fines,
Speaker 1: like if the leadership said you have to do this
Speaker 1: or if you don't, you have to pay ten grand,
Speaker 1: where does that fall into the leadership scale? Great question?
Speaker 1: I think that will I think that will um lose
Speaker 1: trust because you're essentially saying the rich don't have to
Speaker 1: do it. I see, because then you're basically willing to
Speaker 1: not do it because you don't care about the money. Right,
Speaker 1: buy your way out. That's unequal. It's pen that angle.
Speaker 1: That's kind of like we go back to the Varsity
Speaker 1: Blues a little bit, right, and and Becky, I want
Speaker 1: to understand a little bit more about those that sort
Speaker 1: of lead because they're successful themselves. Versus want to help
Speaker 1: others be successful. I feel like I've been in the
Speaker 1: corporate world for a very long time and I have
Speaker 1: seen people who only care about themselves get consisted certantly ahead.
Speaker 1: When is it kind of like you know, karma up
Speaker 1: here like that, I want a T shirt Karma u
Speaker 1: uh So here's what I'll say is that one of
Speaker 1: the problems is that great individual contributors usually have a
Speaker 1: low ceiling in most organizations, and I think that's problematic,
Speaker 1: Like we should be able to have people that are
Speaker 1: individual contributors also aspire and move up an organization and
Speaker 1: not have to put them into a place of management
Speaker 1: that they're ill equipped to do. But most organizations the
Speaker 1: only way for you to rise is to become a manager,
Speaker 1: and so ambitious individual contributors shift over there. So I
Speaker 1: think we can fix some of that structurally. And then
Speaker 1: the other thing is that management is a skill that
Speaker 1: can be taught. I'm saying that almost school, the Harvard
Speaker 1: Business School, so I believe it very much, But particularly
Speaker 1: in tech companies, where you know, people go there for
Speaker 1: their first job, didn't come out of a business school curriculum.
Speaker 1: They haven't been taught it. It's not that hard to
Speaker 1: teach it, and it's not that hard to learn it,
Speaker 1: but it does need to be taught. So I do
Speaker 1: wonder right now we're at this interesting time, Francis where
Speaker 1: I feel like UM management structures are being taxed on
Speaker 1: so many different levels, right, dealing with the virus, dealing
Speaker 1: with you know, a lousy economy, UM, also trying to
Speaker 1: up diversity issues in light of what happened with George
Speaker 1: Floyd and others, the tragic death of UM, and trying
Speaker 1: to create equalities. And I do wonder, you know, women
Speaker 1: have made progress, but there's a long way to go.
Speaker 1: I do wonder how it all looks as there are
Speaker 1: so many different stresses on the system. Do we get
Speaker 1: any better on any of this? Well, Fortunately, as we
Speaker 1: get better with diversity and inclusion, we will get better
Speaker 1: at all of the other performance. So the solutions of
Speaker 1: fellow the problems is in is in the solution to others.
Speaker 1: So when we have more diverse perspectives, we will be
Speaker 1: more creative, more rigorous, more innovative, and that will then
Speaker 1: help with solve the other problems. So I think the
Speaker 1: most urgent challenge organizations have today is to be more
Speaker 1: inclusive of diverse perspective and diverse experiences. But is it different.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's different from a year ago, two
Speaker 1: years ago? Do you think there is really something different?
Speaker 1: I do for two two reasons. One is, we all
Speaker 1: saw the murder of George Floyd and several other people
Speaker 1: up to that, but that one in particular like happened
Speaker 1: in a consciousness. I don't know if we were all
Speaker 1: home at the same time and we were all watching it.
Speaker 1: And when I look at the people that are speaking
Speaker 1: out about it, it's not it's everyone speaking out on
Speaker 1: behalf of the need for under represented to stop being underrepresented.
Speaker 1: And so it feels different to me, and in my
Speaker 1: interactions with company, it sure does feel like a very
Speaker 1: palpable thing. But good news is that the moral imperative
Speaker 1: lines up with the business imperative here, diverse perspectives will
Speaker 1: make you much better. It's also the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: But again, that's another thing that we've been talking about
Speaker 1: for years, and I feel like it's still taking a
Speaker 1: long time right, which kind of leads to my next
Speaker 1: question is um I've seen it through my friends, work,
Speaker 1: through you know, my career, my lifespan. UM is that
Speaker 1: people can be very good at managing up but very
Speaker 1: bad at managing down. So you may be able to
Speaker 1: do really well giving lip service to those kind of
Speaker 1: things to like your superior, your superior superiors, but actually execution, UM,
Speaker 1: I'm managing down is very different. Um, how do we
Speaker 1: bridge that gap? Yeah? So if there are demographic tendencies
Speaker 1: associated with some thrives on my team, I should be
Speaker 1: held accountable for it. There's no amount of chatter that
Speaker 1: I give to anyone that should overcome that performance school card.
Speaker 1: But what if it does? What do you do? Then?
Speaker 1: I invest in their competitors? Oh, okay, money, right, like
Speaker 1: you you won't fright. So So in addition to that,
Speaker 1: if you talk more about uh, the inclusion, how do
Speaker 1: you take a group and set the tone, Like if
Speaker 1: you were going into the job for the first air
Speaker 1: you were advising you know the c you have a company,
Speaker 1: and say, all right, this is your meeting. This is
Speaker 1: how you set the tone. These are the this is
Speaker 1: like the three things you need to do. Go. So
Speaker 1: the first thing is that, um, I would look, are
Speaker 1: there demographic tendencies associated with how people are achieving and
Speaker 1: their sentiments? So my prep for the meeting is you know,
Speaker 1: it's a whole organization women, but there's only five percent
Speaker 1: women at the time. Then there's a demographic tendency. Are
Speaker 1: we overloaded with black people at the bottom of an
Speaker 1: organization and Latin next the middle and only white people
Speaker 1: at the top. And then I would double click on
Speaker 1: why and I can narrow it down for everyone. There's
Speaker 1: only four reasons. It's either hiring, development, promotion, or retention.
Speaker 1: It's so it's super solvable, right, I mean, you just
Speaker 1: look at the numbers, right, like, if you really do
Speaker 1: the breakdown, it's going to be a very clear picture
Speaker 1: of what's happening in your company. And then right, you
Speaker 1: have to get then into the reasons why we were
Speaker 1: the four things again, say it again for me. Hiring, development, promotion, retention, Okay, interesting,
Speaker 1: I think she's starting a firm Francis and not quite sure. No,
Speaker 1: I'm too tired for that, but I'm just really fascinating.
Speaker 1: Developing can get left behind because you can fill a quota,
Speaker 1: but you have to develop it too, and I think
Speaker 1: that's where we wind up losing, say a lot of
Speaker 1: women for example. That's why you get people you know
Speaker 1: in the pipeline early on, right, but to lose them
Speaker 1: along the way in terms of the higher positions. Francis,
Speaker 1: you're always thought provoking. I knew Alex would love you.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm like, can we talk to her more?
Speaker 1: We will bring her back, We will bring her back. Um, Francis,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Great to check in with you.
Speaker 1: Francis Fry, Professor of Technology and Operations Management over at
Speaker 1: Harvard Business School. Check out her book Unleashed, The Unapologetic
Speaker 1: Leader's Guide to Empowering Everyone around You. It came out
Speaker 1: this year, right. It's about you know, you have to
Speaker 1: be comfortable, I think, as a leader to be to
Speaker 1: empower others.