Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Parenthood is learning to
Speaker 1: back away, wait a bit before interfering. It's about learning
Speaker 1: to have confidence in other people, including little ones, Hi, everybody,
Speaker 1: and welcome back to Katie's Crib Today. On this episode,
Speaker 1: we are going way back, like way way way back,
Speaker 1: and all over the world we are looking at ancient
Speaker 1: practices and different cultures of how to parent. I get
Speaker 1: the sneaking suspicion that here in America we are just,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like making things way harder than they
Speaker 1: have to be. So we have on today. Dr Michaelan
Speaker 1: Duclef She is a correspondent for NPR Science Desk. In
Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen, she was part of the team that
Speaker 1: earned a George Foster Peabody Award for its coverage of
Speaker 1: the Ebola outbreak in West Africa, and before joining NPR,
Speaker 1: Dr Dukeleff was an editor at the journal Cell, where
Speaker 1: she wrote about the science behind pop culture. She has
Speaker 1: a doctorate in chemistry from the University of California, Berkeley.
Speaker 1: She is a master's degree in viticulture and analogy from
Speaker 1: the University of California Davis, and we're gonna be talking
Speaker 1: about her new book. It's called Hunt Gather Parent, What
Speaker 1: Ancient Cultures can teach Us about the Lost art of
Speaker 1: raising happy, helpful little humans. Let's hear about what other
Speaker 1: people are doing around the world. Um now, Dr Dukleff,
Speaker 1: is that you can call me Michael. You can call
Speaker 1: me Michael. Okay, it's very very nice of you, guys. Michaelean,
Speaker 1: I absolutely I love that name. What is that? It's
Speaker 1: like the Irish form of like, like Kathleen or Colleen.
Speaker 1: It's like the feminine form of Michael. That's supposedly amazing.
Speaker 1: How never heard of that in my life. I think
Speaker 1: that Micheline, the French version, is more common than Michael.
Speaker 1: I mean, I love it. It's amazing. I am a
Speaker 1: huge fan, um for all of our listeners. Dr mike
Speaker 1: Leen uh Duke Left wrote this amazing book called Hunt
Speaker 1: Gather Parent, What Ancient Cultures Can teach Us about the
Speaker 1: Lost art of raising happy, helpful little humans. Help, Boss,
Speaker 1: We're drowning, and by we, I shouldn't be speaking for everyone.
Speaker 1: I have to learn that me I'm drowning. Help Okay,
Speaker 1: first and foremost you are a mom to a glorious
Speaker 1: little girl named Rosie. Right, Yes, glorious is one way
Speaker 1: to put it. Dynamic, that's the word I used to
Speaker 1: describe my three and a half year old son. Tell
Speaker 1: me about Rosie. Tell me about her temperament. Tell me
Speaker 1: how old she is. Have you always wanted to be
Speaker 1: a mom? Tell me all stuff. Um, so, Rosie is
Speaker 1: now five, but when we started on this journey, she
Speaker 1: was to two and a half three um, and she
Speaker 1: has always just been like hot tempered, fiery, fire in
Speaker 1: the belly kid, like the baby. It was like crying.
Speaker 1: And but then as when she turned into a toddler,
Speaker 1: it was tantrums and you know, even physical abuse. I say, like,
Speaker 1: you know, she would have a tantrum and I would
Speaker 1: try to pick her up and hold her and she
Speaker 1: would just like slap me across the face. Even in public.
Speaker 1: It was it was awful to be honest with you
Speaker 1: and what we're what would you do? Like E then?
Speaker 1: Were you grasping at straws? Were you trying everything constantly
Speaker 1: screaming back time outs? Tell me all of your tactics.
Speaker 1: I mean the first thing is just like run out
Speaker 1: of the store because I know I'm going to get
Speaker 1: like an onslaught of people like you know, shaming me
Speaker 1: or you know, but I tried everything. I've read so
Speaker 1: many books and I googled and read so many blog posts,
Speaker 1: and you know, I tried to really be firm or
Speaker 1: you know, set the boundaries. I think one of the
Speaker 1: advices was like, you know, grab the hand before it hits,
Speaker 1: and it was just like I can't coordinated. It turned
Speaker 1: into just ducking, you know, like I literally would pick
Speaker 1: her up and like duck. And I felt actually like
Speaker 1: anything I did just made things worse. I really felt
Speaker 1: that way for a long time. I say in the
Speaker 1: book like I would lay in bed in the mornings
Speaker 1: and just kind of dread waking up having her wake up. Abs. Okay,
Speaker 1: first of all, if we're going to get real and
Speaker 1: get honest, which is what we do on this podcast,
Speaker 1: if you're a mother that has never felt like I
Speaker 1: don't believe it. I just don't believe it, you're lying
Speaker 1: because every mom has had weeks, months, years, mornings evenings
Speaker 1: where they're like please don't wake up from the nap,
Speaker 1: or like I just I am not ready to start
Speaker 1: this day, Like when my son sleeps in and gives
Speaker 1: me an extra fifteen minutes. It's like, and I'm not
Speaker 1: talking about sleep. I'm just talking about fifteen minutes where
Speaker 1: I'm not seeing him and I love him. But like,
Speaker 1: if hard, it's hard, and it sounds like Rosie, it
Speaker 1: was very hard. Yeah, And we didn't really have a
Speaker 1: We didn't even know it really because we didn't know
Speaker 1: anything else. We were just kind of like, oh, we're
Speaker 1: horrible parents. You know, we're totally failing. Like I'm with
Speaker 1: my husband and I we wouldn't say it, We're like,
Speaker 1: we're just the we're horrible. And also you would come
Speaker 1: from it's not like you were a parenting specially like
Speaker 1: any of this hat like before Rosie, Okay, you have
Speaker 1: a doctorate in chemistry from the University of California, Berkeley.
Speaker 1: You have a master's degree in viticulture. Yeah, that's like winemaking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that helped somewhat. Yes, that and analogy from the
Speaker 1: University of California Davis. Like, it's not like you had
Speaker 1: any tools until you were thrown into it at to
Speaker 1: to figure this ship out. So tell me how you
Speaker 1: came to the idea of this book and how you
Speaker 1: currently parent. So right at the same time that this
Speaker 1: was happening, just like completely independently, MPR, where I'm a correspondent,
Speaker 1: sent me down to the Yucatan in Mexico, to a
Speaker 1: small Maya village to do a different story, a story
Speaker 1: about children's attention. There had been some studies I'd read
Speaker 1: and I was interested in following up on that um
Speaker 1: And when I got down there, to be honest, I
Speaker 1: mean I was just shocked at at the moms. You know,
Speaker 1: I spent most of the time with the mom's um
Speaker 1: in particularly this one mom Maria tumburgis like she has
Speaker 1: five kids, three girls that are four to twelve, and
Speaker 1: she related to them in such a calm, conflict free way.
Speaker 1: She was calm, but she was also confident, like she
Speaker 1: was in charge clearly um. But there was no yelling,
Speaker 1: no bickering, no negotiating, And her kids were great. They
Speaker 1: were kind and generous and super super helpful, And this
Speaker 1: was common with many of the families. And I I
Speaker 1: left there just being like, is there a better way
Speaker 1: to do this than like what I'm seeing and what
Speaker 1: I've been taught and how my mom raised me, is
Speaker 1: you know what's going on? Like I want to learn
Speaker 1: how she does this. Um, I kind of left and
Speaker 1: I tried to find it in parenting books, and I
Speaker 1: started to realize we have such a narrow view in
Speaker 1: parenting books, and I started reading more. And then I
Speaker 1: actually went up to the Arctic for another story, not
Speaker 1: about about anger actually, but but I saw a similar
Speaker 1: approach to relating to children, this very calm, confident way,
Speaker 1: very conflict free. And again the children were respectful and
Speaker 1: kind and helpful. And so I started reading more and realizing, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is actually a really common way of relating to
Speaker 1: kids around the world, and in many ways, what we
Speaker 1: do in the US, many many Americans is the exception.
Speaker 1: And actually we're making our lives like much harder and uh,
Speaker 1: just so such an exhausting way of parenting. This is amazing.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm already feeling relief. I'm like, you're telling me
Speaker 1: doing less could get me more, Okay, great, tell me, um, Okay,
Speaker 1: so you start to notice that in the Yucatan and
Speaker 1: in the Arctic people are parenting differently. Did you go
Speaker 1: other places? And when did you decide to write this book?
Speaker 1: So after the Arctic trip, I started to really read
Speaker 1: about childhood in different parts of the world and historically
Speaker 1: our human history, like over tens of thousands of years.
Speaker 1: And what I started to realize is that there's this
Speaker 1: common way of relating to children. It's likely thousands of
Speaker 1: years old, the parents all over the world, every continent,
Speaker 1: have turned to over and over again. And yet and
Speaker 1: like the last hundred two hundred years, many families in
Speaker 1: the US have lost key elements of it for various reasons,
Speaker 1: and in place of it, we've kind of turned to
Speaker 1: these kind of crazy, strange, exhausting ways of relating to
Speaker 1: children that you don't find anywhere else in the world
Speaker 1: or throughout human history. Many of these things I think
Speaker 1: are actually not only making us exhaustive, but I think
Speaker 1: they're also doing our children at disservice In some ways.
Speaker 1: I think they're causing anxiety and stress and depression. And
Speaker 1: so at that point I was like, Okay, I want
Speaker 1: to learn as much as I can about this um,
Speaker 1: mostly very selfishly, just because or Rosie, and for yourself
Speaker 1: and for your marriage and for like your like your skincare,
Speaker 1: and like element lord um. And so then I actually
Speaker 1: it's not in the book, but I actually thought of
Speaker 1: taking her with me on these trips. So I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back to the Maya village and back
Speaker 1: up to the Arctic, and I'm also going to go
Speaker 1: to a place where humans come from, where humans evolved
Speaker 1: in in Africa and East Africa and Tanzania. Um, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take Rosie with me, and I'm gonna see
Speaker 1: if they can they can help me. You know, really,
Speaker 1: I would leave tomorrow, honestly, if that was an option
Speaker 1: right now, I would do the same. Okay, so you
Speaker 1: take Rosie with you to opposite ends of the world
Speaker 1: and what happens. You know. The first trip to to
Speaker 1: the U Tan was really hard. The trip was just
Speaker 1: kind of a nightmare. And I know those moms just
Speaker 1: thought I was the worst parent on the planet. But
Speaker 1: they didn't really tell me much. They didn't really u
Speaker 1: shame me. They were you know, But but I could
Speaker 1: see how they interacted with Rosie very differently, and how
Speaker 1: Rosie settled under under their wings, so to speak. Especially Maria,
Speaker 1: like how that calmness really started to change her. That's
Speaker 1: when I started to really understand, like, oh, she needs
Speaker 1: me to be calm, she needs me to stop talking,
Speaker 1: stop telling her what to do and just kind of
Speaker 1: be there with this calm energy and all this stuff
Speaker 1: I'm doing to fix things and stop our tangerums. It's
Speaker 1: the opposite. So what you were doing when she had
Speaker 1: a tangum, let's say, talking to her a lot, taking
Speaker 1: things away and like tell me what you would have done,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it would start off very nice, like, oh,
Speaker 1: what's wrong? Are you okay? Or what do you need?
Speaker 1: Do you want something to drink or you don't want
Speaker 1: to you know, this kind of a barrage of words, nice,
Speaker 1: nice words, right, um, And then things would get worse,
Speaker 1: and then you know, it would turn into anger, right,
Speaker 1: like why are you doing this? Now? You got to
Speaker 1: stop this? And it would very quickly escalate to anger.
Speaker 1: And then that was the worst, right because my anger
Speaker 1: like fueled her anger and then that's when she would
Speaker 1: like hit me or she was also biting me. Um. Nice, great,
Speaker 1: great great great. So the moms that you brought Rosie
Speaker 1: to in the Ukutan when they saw her doing this,
Speaker 1: what were the tactics they used? They actually left it
Speaker 1: up to the kids to handle her, which was really interesting. So,
Speaker 1: like they were always kids around from four to sixteen
Speaker 1: and a lot of the kids would come over and
Speaker 1: start tickling her, and we have these pictures that were
Speaker 1: like lying on the ground, like three kids like tickling her,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it was actually really brilliant. She would run
Speaker 1: away and they chase her, and I asked her, do
Speaker 1: you do you like that? Because it looked like she
Speaker 1: didn't like it, but she was like, I love it, Mama.
Speaker 1: It was so fun and it did. It stopped it
Speaker 1: like instantaneously. And I actually when I really was getting
Speaker 1: angry at her after that, Like if I just had
Speaker 1: a lot of anger and I didn't know what to
Speaker 1: do with it, I would start tickling her. Tell me
Speaker 1: the major three, let's say, differences between our Western civilization
Speaker 1: parenting versus what you found in Tanzania, Yucatan, and the Arctic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so the number one is calm. So when we got
Speaker 1: up to the Arctic, this wonderful woman Elizabeth to Kumiyak,
Speaker 1: she was our interpreter, and she really showed me how
Speaker 1: to handle Rosie's tantrums. She started to realize, this woman
Speaker 1: really needs my help, and she started to show me
Speaker 1: like what to do. And so one day Rosie was
Speaker 1: having a tantrum in the road, Um. It was about
Speaker 1: ten o'clock at night, the sun was still up because
Speaker 1: it's an arctic and she just walked over to her
Speaker 1: like so calm. She hardly said anything. Her voice was
Speaker 1: down here, and she said, in the sweetest, softest voice, Rosie,
Speaker 1: do you see the sunset? The pink in the purple?
Speaker 1: And it was the I mean, a calmness that we
Speaker 1: I rarely ever see in my life, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean just everything went down her face like lost expression,
Speaker 1: and it was incredible, Like Rosie just stopped, she just
Speaker 1: stopped screaming. I saw this happen a couple of times,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, this is really what she
Speaker 1: needs me to do. Um. And when I got back,
Speaker 1: I read about it, and I read like, how, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of science behind this that kids emotions
Speaker 1: and energy state mirrors ours, and so when we come
Speaker 1: at them with all these words, even if we're trying
Speaker 1: to be nice, you know, it's just raises their energy
Speaker 1: and raises that level. Um. So that is the first thing.
Speaker 1: It's just how little words are often used and how
Speaker 1: calm parents are around young kids. Um. And I think
Speaker 1: that teaches children to be calm. Of course, it's amazing
Speaker 1: and how to regulate their own emotions before they take
Speaker 1: any sort of action, which is a great reminder for
Speaker 1: us as well. Okay, what else, So the other big,
Speaker 1: big thing is about what kids rules are in the house.
Speaker 1: So we have this sense often that kids need to
Speaker 1: be entertained or educated or stimulated kind of we need
Speaker 1: to manage their schedule and we need to keep them busy,
Speaker 1: we need to fill up their time, right like, oh,
Speaker 1: what are we going to do this weekend? Um? And
Speaker 1: this idea is really strange. I don't think any other
Speaker 1: culture in the world or throughout human history has has
Speaker 1: thought of kids this way. It's up to kids to
Speaker 1: manage their time. Um And. So other cultures don't have
Speaker 1: these like child centered active These like Mommy and Me
Speaker 1: aren't class or kiddy museums or special birthday parties like
Speaker 1: activities that are designed just for kids and the parents
Speaker 1: would never do if they didn't have a child. Oh
Speaker 1: my god. So like I don't have to go to
Speaker 1: Lego Land because I don't want to go there on
Speaker 1: my vacation. You know what I mean? You know you
Speaker 1: don't have to go, and I am no longer going.
Speaker 1: I stopped going to birthday parties even you know, before
Speaker 1: the pandemic, I stopped going to kidding museums. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm done. I'm done with these things. They are not
Speaker 1: good for our children, and I don't want them. Wow,
Speaker 1: this is fascinating. So it's like so in other cultures,
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, them being bored is a good thing them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: having nothing to do is a good thing. Then being
Speaker 1: overscheduled is a good thing. I mean, it's a terrible thing.
Speaker 1: Under scheduled is a good thing. Tell me more, tell
Speaker 1: me more on this. So this is what I learned
Speaker 1: largely with with the Maya families. So the kids go
Speaker 1: to school, right, they go to school, um, but it's
Speaker 1: what they do after school and on the weekends. So
Speaker 1: the parents just go about their lives. They have like hobbies,
Speaker 1: they work, they socialized, they do all the things that
Speaker 1: they do you know before they had kids. And they
Speaker 1: let the kids kind of hang out and tag along
Speaker 1: if they want, as long as they are somewhat appropriately behaved.
Speaker 1: And if they're not, you know, they tell them they
Speaker 1: have to go, they have to go back home, or
Speaker 1: they have to go you know with a relative. Um.
Speaker 1: But they try to teach them to be in that
Speaker 1: adult world. They let them participate in the adult world.
Speaker 1: I think this does a couple of a couple of things.
Speaker 1: I think first of all, it teaches children how to
Speaker 1: grow up and mature right and how to act when
Speaker 1: you know, in adult places. But too, I think it
Speaker 1: teaches kids to cooperate and work together with their families,
Speaker 1: which I think is something we have really lost. I
Speaker 1: think kids, when when they're constantly scheduled I'm catered to, yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: cater to, they turned into these like v I P
Speaker 1: members of the family. So when you try to go
Speaker 1: get them, you know, to wash the dishes or help
Speaker 1: with the laundry, they're like, but that's not my job. Yeah,
Speaker 1: talk to me about chores. Have you seen a chore
Speaker 1: chart in the Yucatan. I'm gonna guess not. No. So
Speaker 1: when you have a kid places other than America, the
Speaker 1: kid comes along and as a part of your life,
Speaker 1: not vice versa. Okay, so you're taking the kid to
Speaker 1: your wine tastings on a Saturday, or you're hanging out
Speaker 1: in a friend's house, like, they come and they better
Speaker 1: be fucking well behaved otherwise we have to leave Like
Speaker 1: this is this is my life and I am not
Speaker 1: living in yours right, right, So it's really interesting. One,
Speaker 1: there's no the child centered activities, right, it's just activities
Speaker 1: for the family. But the second thing is is that
Speaker 1: the kid, starting from the time that they can walk,
Speaker 1: are expected to help a little bit with basically all housework,
Speaker 1: in all work. It goes on. So from the time
Speaker 1: that they start to walk, parents told me, and this
Speaker 1: is also documented in a bunch of research, they'll say, like,
Speaker 1: you know, go grab my shoes, or go, you know,
Speaker 1: go give this to your father. Right, So they're already
Speaker 1: starting to teach the child how to help and work
Speaker 1: together with them. And then as the child gets a
Speaker 1: little bit older, the task get a little bit bigger.
Speaker 1: At the table, you have to clear your plate, come
Speaker 1: help me make dinner. You have to take your dirty
Speaker 1: laundry and put it in the laundry machine or whatever. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I'm a firm believer in this um. We had
Speaker 1: an amazing author on the show who was basically like
Speaker 1: the two things that in Western culture that we can
Speaker 1: point to that make a successful and adult. And I
Speaker 1: don't mean successful in terms of money, I mean successful
Speaker 1: in terms of like being relationships and have like you know,
Speaker 1: and and good mental health. Yeah exactly is they had
Speaker 1: a part time job and or always did chores around
Speaker 1: the house and and so I am about that. I'm
Speaker 1: about that. But I don't want to make a church chart.
Speaker 1: I didn't grow up with one. I really don't want
Speaker 1: to do a gold star situation. But I do have
Speaker 1: a kid who when I'm like, let's help with this,
Speaker 1: he says no. So so the how old is he?
Speaker 1: How old are be? In a half? Okay? Okay, So
Speaker 1: the church chart is problematic, some would say. Some psychologists
Speaker 1: would say, because it basically teaches the child these are
Speaker 1: your tasks and your only tasks, right, And what the
Speaker 1: Maya families are doing are teaching the child to pay
Speaker 1: attention and look around and see what needs to be
Speaker 1: done and then help other people, like what who needs help? Right?
Speaker 1: So they're teaching them a really like bigger skill. It's
Speaker 1: called a comma dido or hamadida. It means like, I'm
Speaker 1: paying attention. Oh look my mom started doing the dishes,
Speaker 1: let me go over and help her, or you know,
Speaker 1: oh look dad's carrying the groceries, and let me go
Speaker 1: grab a bag. Right, So they're teaching like cooperativity and
Speaker 1: and how to be a good family member. Where's that
Speaker 1: short chart kind of just says, Okay, you're supposed to
Speaker 1: like sweep on Thursdays and do the dishes, and also
Speaker 1: why do you get a reward for that? I don't
Speaker 1: get Oh yeah, do you know what I mean? Like that,
Speaker 1: absolutely all know that trickiness from the potty training podcast
Speaker 1: we did. But it's like, oh God, you are digging
Speaker 1: yourself into a hole. Because your kids smart, so if
Speaker 1: you gave them a gummy bear for that, they're going
Speaker 1: to expect at least a gummy bear next time, if
Speaker 1: not too. Yeah, And psychology shows like if you actually
Speaker 1: want kids to do something, voluntarily giving them a reward
Speaker 1: will like backfire, right yeah. Also, I think with the
Speaker 1: short thing it's really hard. Like I'm thinking about my
Speaker 1: own household and how you know a lot of times
Speaker 1: pay errants do the cleaning everything like that because it's
Speaker 1: just faster. Right. Yes, this is huge. It's my patient's
Speaker 1: problem where it's like I'll be sitting right here and
Speaker 1: he's told me he's bored, and I'm putting laundry and
Speaker 1: the laundry machine. It's like Okay, hell, can you sort
Speaker 1: the dark colors from the from the white colors and
Speaker 1: put the dark colors like? But I know that that's
Speaker 1: going to take an additional ten minutes. But I feel like,
Speaker 1: going back to what you said about the calmness, I
Speaker 1: do such a better job at this on Saturdays and Sundays.
Speaker 1: And so I feel like this is such a bigger
Speaker 1: issue of how we are as a civilization right now,
Speaker 1: in how fast we do things. The phone this in
Speaker 1: our face, the need to get things done, the need
Speaker 1: to do a thousand things in a day, and it
Speaker 1: sort of goes very much against what our children need
Speaker 1: us to be, which is calmer, slower, Yeah, to do
Speaker 1: everything together as a family unit. And is this making
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound correct? I think you're absolutely right. I think, um,
Speaker 1: there's definitely more patients with kids what I saw, not
Speaker 1: infinite patients, but a little bit more. The thing for
Speaker 1: our family is, since I chucked out the like kiddy
Speaker 1: museums and birthday parties, the activity is the chores great,
Speaker 1: So I'm like, that's it. Kids like laundry on Saturday morning,
Speaker 1: you know, dinner is the afternoon, you know? Is the activity.
Speaker 1: So so I've given yourself a lot more time because
Speaker 1: I'm just like, we're not rushing around to some event
Speaker 1: that I don't want to go to. Right, great, great, great,
Speaker 1: this is great. Yeah. So definitely I had to learn
Speaker 1: to have more patients, there's no doubt. Um. But I
Speaker 1: also stop scheduling us so much so that I could
Speaker 1: have that a little bit more and really absolutely on
Speaker 1: the weekdays like sometimes I've just like got to get
Speaker 1: this done, you know, you know, um with your your
Speaker 1: three year olds. Really interesting, I would say, So this
Speaker 1: is something that actually the Hadzabe parents in Tanzania that
Speaker 1: I saw taught me, um, really really showed me. Um.
Speaker 1: It's it's tiny, tiny tasks that teach these little ones
Speaker 1: and even teach adults like partners who don't know how
Speaker 1: to cook and clean very well. Okay, yes, so like
Speaker 1: tiny tiny So instead of like sort the weight in
Speaker 1: the black, put this shirt in the washing machine, right,
Speaker 1: is more than enough? More than enough? Or like instead
Speaker 1: of at the table, it's hand the plate and say
Speaker 1: put this plate on the table. And I think this
Speaker 1: does two things. When it's so simple, they're more likely
Speaker 1: to do it right, and too, they can accomplish something
Speaker 1: and contribute really fast, and then they're hungry for more.
Speaker 1: This is like the Hatsabe mom. Like wherever we went
Speaker 1: the moms, they'd hand a little five year old something
Speaker 1: to carry, or you know, they'd say go get a bowl.
Speaker 1: Like it was these I need tiny little childs carry
Speaker 1: this little piece of wood, right, And I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm over overthinking this. This is just like so with
Speaker 1: the husband. It's like, grabbed this from the fridge, cut
Speaker 1: this garlic, you know, Chop this garlic. You know. It's
Speaker 1: like these little tasks. They get them included and teach
Speaker 1: them the skill at the same time because they're there
Speaker 1: with you. Did you notice a huge change in Rosie
Speaker 1: and her being by implementing the things you collected from
Speaker 1: around the world. Oh my god, incredible transformation. Like so
Speaker 1: the calmness ended the tantrums from like one or two
Speaker 1: a day to like one or two a month in
Speaker 1: several weeks really just plummeted. Um Yeah, incredible. I mean
Speaker 1: it took It was more my effort, right, it was
Speaker 1: me learning not to get angry at her and how
Speaker 1: to do that. Um. But once I did and kind
Speaker 1: of convinced her I wasn't going to get angry. She
Speaker 1: just she just stopped like it was. It was really
Speaker 1: amazing wo and then including her in these tasks. So
Speaker 1: I definitely saw a change when we stopped doing the
Speaker 1: child centered activities. Like her behavior was always kind of
Speaker 1: bad after those, Like you know, she was like overstimulated
Speaker 1: over sugar. Yeah exactly, and I was too, So it
Speaker 1: was just like a bad combo um. But now we Yeah,
Speaker 1: so a couple of days ago, she was really acting out.
Speaker 1: She was trying to climb on the roof and she
Speaker 1: was up on the roof and it was just like
Speaker 1: and I know, and I said that, And actually so
Speaker 1: our neighbor came over and I was like, oh, they're
Speaker 1: coming to visit us, and it was like, no to
Speaker 1: tell us the kid was on the roof, and I
Speaker 1: was like, ohious, But I said, you know what, she
Speaker 1: needs more responsibility, She needs to have more more of
Speaker 1: a role. And so I said, all right, Rosie, would
Speaker 1: you know, would you like to go up and get
Speaker 1: us some milk from the corner market, just like two
Speaker 1: blocks away in the city. And she just like her
Speaker 1: eyes got a wide and was like yeah, you know, amazing,
Speaker 1: And so I actually followed her. This is what I
Speaker 1: learned from Maria and the Yukotan like I followed behind,
Speaker 1: she couldn't see me, and she took the dog with her,
Speaker 1: and the dog knew I was there the whole time.
Speaker 1: And it kept turning around, being like, what are you
Speaker 1: doing lady? You know? But and she did it and
Speaker 1: it was she was great. You know. We we we
Speaker 1: have taught her across the roads and it changed her
Speaker 1: her behavior totally. She was needing more responsibility. It's so interesting.
Speaker 1: We're so protective here. I I hear about other cultures
Speaker 1: and kids like cooking themselves an egg by five years old,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like they already know how
Speaker 1: to do all this ship and like we're sitting over
Speaker 1: here still cutting our kids steak by the time that twelve,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like, um, can you
Speaker 1: talk to me about what team parenting is? Yeah. So
Speaker 1: it's kind of something I just came up with at first,
Speaker 1: so I could remember these things while I was, you know,
Speaker 1: in those hot button moments. But it's kind of this
Speaker 1: common element that you find around the world and in
Speaker 1: pockets of the United States. Now. Um, but a way
Speaker 1: of relating to a child that's based on collaboration instead
Speaker 1: of conflict and power struggles. So the first thing is togetherness.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of evidence that shows that kids are
Speaker 1: really hardwired to do things with you or another caretaker.
Speaker 1: And I want to emphasize in many cultures, the mom
Speaker 1: and the dad play a much smaller role in children's
Speaker 1: lives than here. When I hear this ship, I'm like,
Speaker 1: we're so fucked, Like this is why we're drowning. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is why this podcast exists, which I'm so grateful for.
Speaker 1: But it's like we are literally being asked to do
Speaker 1: the impossible. It's like everyone says it takes a village,
Speaker 1: no literally, and we don't have one. At least it
Speaker 1: takes like four people. You know, It's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, we're in a global pandemic and that
Speaker 1: is unprecedented in terms of the selation we are dealing with.
Speaker 1: But it was bad before then in terms of what
Speaker 1: I mean. I I was so lucky to go to
Speaker 1: Morocco to shoot something right before the pandemic hit, and
Speaker 1: I took my son and we went to a dinner
Speaker 1: party with the Moroccan family and there were just a
Speaker 1: bunch of kids running around. I didn't know where my
Speaker 1: child was, and they said, oh, don't worry, the older
Speaker 1: kids have got him. And I was like, this is
Speaker 1: the best. I don't have to like pay a babysitter
Speaker 1: or find something who I've had over before, so I
Speaker 1: could teach them all the rules of Albie and weren't
Speaker 1: know He's going to tell them what he needs. All
Speaker 1: the kids know and they'll come get me if there's
Speaker 1: an issue. This is so this is super common around
Speaker 1: the world. Like even when we went up in the Arctic,
Speaker 1: mom and dads were just like, what you're with your
Speaker 1: child like all the time, she's sick of you, Like
Speaker 1: that's why she's grippy, and that's why we don't want
Speaker 1: to get up, that's why we you don't wake up
Speaker 1: for much longer because it's like, yeah, we're all drowning
Speaker 1: and we all don't want to be with each other
Speaker 1: this much. They literally brought like two or three kids
Speaker 1: over and we're like, take her, take the child. This
Speaker 1: woman needs a break. She got sucked in just like
Speaker 1: you were talking about, and I didn't see her for
Speaker 1: like five hours, best five hours of your life. We
Speaker 1: love our children so getherness for a team means like
Speaker 1: like we're constantly trying. So this is one of the
Speaker 1: big paradoxes in American parenting is we value independence in
Speaker 1: our children and we're always trying to get them to
Speaker 1: be independent, but we do not give them any independence.
Speaker 1: But we'll get to that to say it. But we
Speaker 1: always are kind of forcing kids to do things by themselves,
Speaker 1: right like and and this this goes against their natural
Speaker 1: instincts to work with their family and work together and
Speaker 1: be cooperative. Um. And I also want to say that
Speaker 1: togetherness is not entertaining and stimulating the child. It is
Speaker 1: simply being near the child. It's this like coexistence, like
Speaker 1: you do what you want to do. I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: it what I want to do, and we're gonna kind
Speaker 1: of leave each other alone and help each other we
Speaker 1: need it. So it's a very like peaceful coexistence. It's
Speaker 1: just focusing on together instead of everyone. You know, you
Speaker 1: go do the laundry, and I'm going to go, you know,
Speaker 1: vacuum the floor. No, we're all going to work and
Speaker 1: vacuum clean up the living together. And then we're gonna
Speaker 1: all go do you know the laundry together. This thing
Speaker 1: switching from kind of individualism to more of a cooperative mindset. Wow, okay,
Speaker 1: and then we have e for encouragement. This is big.
Speaker 1: Tell me about this. This is hard. This is so hard.
Speaker 1: So this is the idea that no one likes to
Speaker 1: be forced to do something. I don't like to be forced.
Speaker 1: You don't like to be forced. Why would our kids
Speaker 1: want to be forced to do anything? But that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean we don't try um. And so instead of forcing them,
Speaker 1: we encourage them. And the book gives like a whole
Speaker 1: suite of tools for encouraging the right behavior um instead
Speaker 1: of forcing it, you know, with punishment, scolding vibes. There's
Speaker 1: all these things we can do. So you're a little
Speaker 1: three year old, you could tease him a little bit
Speaker 1: if he says no, you know, you could say, you know, oh,
Speaker 1: because you're a baby, Yeah, you don't help around the house.
Speaker 1: You know, there's like a lot of things you can say.
Speaker 1: Great though, like those sort of things make you look
Speaker 1: down upon, like you're a bad mom if you say
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And I'm like, yeah, but he has
Speaker 1: said no a million times and he doesn't want to help,
Speaker 1: and he's being a little ship and like Yeah, he's
Speaker 1: being a jury. Yeah. Like I would put up with
Speaker 1: that from anybody, and I would be like, oh, no,
Speaker 1: you don't want to help because you're being a baby, Okay,
Speaker 1: and then I walk away and then guess what he's
Speaker 1: going to do. He's gonna want to help. I promise
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. They don't want to be babies, okay. So
Speaker 1: E for encouragement and then A is for autonomy. Yes,
Speaker 1: this is a big one, um. And so this is
Speaker 1: the idea. We think independence and autonomy are the same,
Speaker 1: but a lot of psychologists would say they're different. And
Speaker 1: here's how. So to me, is like being able to
Speaker 1: make your own decisions, or at least feel like you're
Speaker 1: making your own decisions from moment to moment and your schedule. Right.
Speaker 1: This feeling is connected to all these wonderful mental health things,
Speaker 1: you know, decreased anxiety, decreased stress, confidence, self sufficiency, all
Speaker 1: these great things. Um. But autonomy also means that you're
Speaker 1: looking out for other people. So it's being able to
Speaker 1: make your own decisions, but you're not disrespecting other people.
Speaker 1: You're helping if they need it. So it's a constant
Speaker 1: looking towards others and making sure you're contributing, but at
Speaker 1: the same time, you know, feeling like you're the captain
Speaker 1: of your own team. This is something actually that's super
Speaker 1: common and one of the key values of hunter gatherer
Speaker 1: communities all over the world and is likely the way
Speaker 1: humans and human children have have been raised for like
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of years. Give me an example of
Speaker 1: how you would practice autonomy with a kid. So I've
Speaker 1: really started to understand this in Tanzania, to see the
Speaker 1: mom and dad's there, the way that they treated their children.
Speaker 1: And I actually started to count how many things they
Speaker 1: said to children per hour. And there's a study that
Speaker 1: does this in another hunter gatherer community in the Congo Basin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so like any input, so praise, instruction, commands, and it
Speaker 1: was like around two or three per hour. And what
Speaker 1: are we in America? Sixty? I started clocking mine and
Speaker 1: I was in over over sixty and I just gave up,
Speaker 1: My god, this is not gonna work. This is a problem.
Speaker 1: This is a problem. You know what when I started
Speaker 1: doing it, so I started trying to do it, like Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna like time myself and give myself one per
Speaker 1: twenty minutes, you know, and it's incredible how how good
Speaker 1: the relationship becomes. Wow, because you can also use non
Speaker 1: verbal cues, right, you can like give them looks and
Speaker 1: you can take action yourself touch them. Um. But once
Speaker 1: I started really practicing three commands per hour, things really
Speaker 1: changed between me and Rosie. Wow. And I relaxed. I
Speaker 1: relaxed because I was like, you're like, well, yeah, like
Speaker 1: I don't have to do I don't have to do it,
Speaker 1: and we don't yeh, we don't. She was fine, she
Speaker 1: has not been injured. Yeah, she's fine. Like so, and
Speaker 1: then does autonomy look like, hey, I'm gonna give you
Speaker 1: two choice, Like he doesn't want to get dressed again,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you two choices. Either I can get
Speaker 1: you dressed or Daddy can get you dressed. So that
Speaker 1: idea of choice and things, I think it came around
Speaker 1: in the seventies. I think that was our idea of
Speaker 1: like trying to give children autonomy. It's kind of bullshit.
Speaker 1: Why because you're still very You're still deciding for them.
Speaker 1: R I'm still just giving them two choices. That sucks.
Speaker 1: So we're still in charge, in charge. That's so funny.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think another thing it's done is
Speaker 1: it's made us depend so much on choice, which is
Speaker 1: also crazy. Kids do not get like, you know, in
Speaker 1: the choices for food or activities or whatever. It's just like,
Speaker 1: this is where we're eating, this is where we're going.
Speaker 1: This is what you're wearing. Yeah, exactly, you have you
Speaker 1: have tin shirts. Just get dressed like wow. Um. And
Speaker 1: then the m is for so this is the bigger one,
Speaker 1: like minimal interfering. Minimal interfering. So we kind of or
Speaker 1: I kind of my knee jerk reaction is maximal interference,
Speaker 1: you know, like how can I jump in there and
Speaker 1: shape the situation is quickly and sure as much as possible. Um.
Speaker 1: But the idea is like this isn't free range, so
Speaker 1: this isn't you know, you throw your hands up and
Speaker 1: the kids just do whatever this is. I'm gonna step back,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna watch, you know, make sure Rosie's okay, and
Speaker 1: only really step in and help when she really needs it.
Speaker 1: And then it's even a very gentle, unintrusive help. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, it's learning to be kind of in the
Speaker 1: background a little bit and let kids explore and learn
Speaker 1: on their own, which again is something that the kids
Speaker 1: have been doing for our hundreds of thousands of years
Speaker 1: and only really being there when they really need it.
Speaker 1: It's a way of collaborating with somebody. You're watching what
Speaker 1: they're doing and building off of what they're doing, instead
Speaker 1: of being in charge of it and managing it. Why
Speaker 1: do you think this happened? Why did this happen? What happened?
Speaker 1: So one of the big things that happened, and I
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit in the book, is
Speaker 1: that the rise of individualism, I think is one thing.
Speaker 1: But one of the big things that happened is I
Speaker 1: don't know if you saw in the book, but this
Speaker 1: whole idea of the Catholic Church's obsession with incest. Right, So,
Speaker 1: five h years ago, the Catholic Church decided that it
Speaker 1: wanted to prevent incests, so it would it prohibited marriages
Speaker 1: between like cousins or which was reasonable, right, you don't
Speaker 1: want to marry your cousin. But over time it like
Speaker 1: extended out to like six cousins and in laws, and
Speaker 1: which is you know, there's no you can marry your
Speaker 1: six cousin. You're totally fine, right, um, But so it
Speaker 1: started to big families exactly like cracked our big extended families.
Speaker 1: You know, everywhere in the world people live in extended families,
Speaker 1: intergenerational groups, neighbors, you know, live with each other. It's
Speaker 1: much more communal um. But there's good evidence that this
Speaker 1: the Catholic churches prohibitions on marriage UM led to the
Speaker 1: arise of the nuclear family. And so now we think
Speaker 1: of this like, you know, one a mom and a
Speaker 1: dad with two kids and a dog's like the ideal family.
Speaker 1: But it's in my no means traditional. It's very new
Speaker 1: and in many days, like you said earlier, it's just
Speaker 1: studying set exactly. I went to East Africa to we
Speaker 1: were in Kenya and we were in a village where
Speaker 1: it was multiple wives sort of a situation interest and
Speaker 1: I was like, this looks amazing. I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I was just wait what I was like, this is
Speaker 1: so great. I was like, there are so many I mean,
Speaker 1: you guys get what I'm saying, though, I mean, it
Speaker 1: was just like I don't want to share my husband
Speaker 1: with anyone. But I definitely I definitely was like, you know,
Speaker 1: there were with a friend, so great, like all the
Speaker 1: children were all the different women. Oh, but let's talk
Speaker 1: about that one how did your UM spouse react to
Speaker 1: your findings from around the world? And did uh did
Speaker 1: he get easily on board? Like? How do I come
Speaker 1: out of this podcast and then tell whoever you're raising
Speaker 1: your children with, if you're lucky, lucky enough to even
Speaker 1: have one other caregiver that's responsible for your child, whatever
Speaker 1: that looks like in your household, how do we get
Speaker 1: this person on board? Because I feel like it doesn't
Speaker 1: work unless everyone's in you know. I really quickly realized, like,
Speaker 1: Rosie is never going to want to do the dishes
Speaker 1: or volunteer to help with the laundry. If my husband
Speaker 1: and I we've been married almost twenty one years, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, if we argue over these things, and we do.
Speaker 1: We did write like we were arguing over who's doing
Speaker 1: the dishes, who's doing the laundry, like no, no, when
Speaker 1: they're Rosie didn't want to do them, like we don't
Speaker 1: want to do them right, And so I quickly realized, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I've got to teach him and me with him, the
Speaker 1: same things that I'm teaching Rosie, Right. I got to
Speaker 1: teach him to cooperate with me and work together with me. UM.
Speaker 1: But I also realized that I couldn't force it right,
Speaker 1: I had to use the e like. It had to
Speaker 1: be this encourage, it had to be this like really
Speaker 1: slowing sure, and you know it worked, It worked really well.
Speaker 1: I basically applied the same techniques with him. Amazing, it's rosy.
Speaker 1: But so this is great. This could work for anybody. Guys, this,
Speaker 1: these skills, they can work for anybody. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: a little teasing like, oh you're being a baby. Yeah, hilarious,
Speaker 1: Like I just say, he did not like that one.
Speaker 1: But you know, you know who is being unhelpful or
Speaker 1: it's unhelpful. So I was very very um I would say,
Speaker 1: slow and patient about it, because these are deeply rooted behaviors, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also I mean along same but different lines, like
Speaker 1: when you went to these places, I'm assuming the men
Speaker 1: were not involved, you know, that's a great question. So
Speaker 1: it depends on the place. In a lot of hunter
Speaker 1: gatherer groups, the men do like the child care, so
Speaker 1: that there's some like support that it's very ancient that
Speaker 1: men helping with child care is a very ancient thing. Um.
Speaker 1: You know in other groups, you know, women did much more. Um,
Speaker 1: but with the hot sabbe then the dads were incredible.
Speaker 1: Rosie not even called one of the dad's super dad,
Speaker 1: Like he was just so great with the babies. You know.
Speaker 1: He'd hang out and hold the little toddler and the
Speaker 1: babies for like hours by the fire and you know,
Speaker 1: no entertainment, no, no, you know, anything, and they would
Speaker 1: just sing and be together. And there wasn't like fifteen
Speaker 1: lego sets in front of them, no, No. One time
Speaker 1: we watched a dad and Tie and his his daughter
Speaker 1: Bailey sit by the fire for two hours, like just
Speaker 1: being together. How do you keep this up if Rosie's
Speaker 1: playing with other kids? That that is a very interesting question. Um,
Speaker 1: I used the methods on them. You do, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: bet you do. Yeah, And you know. And it's the
Speaker 1: good thing about the book is now the moms have
Speaker 1: read it, so they like kind of know where I'm
Speaker 1: you know, where weird all comes from and everything. But
Speaker 1: it it's gotten easier because I think I found a
Speaker 1: few parents that really have a similar philosophy and um,
Speaker 1: similar goals, right exactly. I kind of weeded it out
Speaker 1: like Okay, this mom is really too controlling and I
Speaker 1: can't take it, you know, and it's just not gonna work. Um,
Speaker 1: and that's made it a lot easier because now we're
Speaker 1: kind of all on the same page. That's great, That's
Speaker 1: really really great. Um. Would you say that staying calm
Speaker 1: was the most difficult undoing for you? What what was
Speaker 1: the what was the most difficult undoing and what's been
Speaker 1: the toughest to put into practice? Yeah, decreasing my anger? Right.
Speaker 1: So in the Inuit, moms really were the one and
Speaker 1: dad's were really the ones that taught me this, like,
Speaker 1: it's not about suppressing your anger, it's about generating less
Speaker 1: anger and you in the first place. And so I
Speaker 1: was trying to get Rosy stop biting me, and I
Speaker 1: said something to this this mom, Lisa Appoli. I said,
Speaker 1: you know, but she's pushing my buttons or manipulating me.
Speaker 1: And she literally like laughed at me. She's like, she's
Speaker 1: not pushing your butN she's too you know, she's just
Speaker 1: she's I'm just perceivingous. And what they told me it
Speaker 1: was like children are irrational, illogical beings, and whatever they're
Speaker 1: doing to you, it's not personal. It's just they're irrational,
Speaker 1: and it's your job to show them, through calmness and
Speaker 1: maturity how to behave. UM. And so when she started
Speaker 1: getting angry or you know, like she she hit me,
Speaker 1: you know my husband start to get angry and be like, look,
Speaker 1: she just doesn't know, she doesn't know yet. We have
Speaker 1: to teach her. And so I by shifting kind of
Speaker 1: how I think about the child instead of assuming like
Speaker 1: a nefarious motivation. UM, I just say, you know, she
Speaker 1: doesn't know, she doesn't know yet. I've got I've got
Speaker 1: to show her. Um, and getting angry is just going
Speaker 1: to show her how to get angry, right right right.
Speaker 1: I still get angry, but I've learned to make it
Speaker 1: really short and quick. Great, hey that's huge. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then just move on, you know, move on, move on,
Speaker 1: just move on that. I mean, everything that's like really
Speaker 1: tooving is a phase. Everything is a moment. Everything is
Speaker 1: getting to another moment. Um. Aside from gifting every parent
Speaker 1: a copy of your book, which I'm going to be
Speaker 1: doing for all of my pregnant mamas in my life
Speaker 1: right now, um, and just everyone, I mean, this was
Speaker 1: so helpful. What have you found helps, um, fellow parents
Speaker 1: get out of the Western mindset and open to implementing
Speaker 1: these methods? How do I get someone on board? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think especially with the little ones, welcoming
Speaker 1: them into the work of the house is huge. That's
Speaker 1: really like the gateway drug into the book. Like getting them,
Speaker 1: you know, involgue in the dishes and the cooking and
Speaker 1: the laundry, taking them to the supermarket and teaching them
Speaker 1: knowing it might not work like you like it at first,
Speaker 1: but I've got to guide them and teach them. I've
Speaker 1: heard from a lot of readers that this has transformed relationships. Um,
Speaker 1: Like you know with strong will kids, they just want
Speaker 1: to help. They're upset because they're unemployed in the home.
Speaker 1: Want a job. That's so funny, that's hilarious. They're unimportant,
Speaker 1: they're upset and they want the responsibility they do. They
Speaker 1: want to be trusted, they want to contribute, they want
Speaker 1: their responsibility. Um, what advice, like any last like any
Speaker 1: last things that I did not hit on that you
Speaker 1: can bestow on us from all of your genius studies
Speaker 1: from around the world. I think a big thing for
Speaker 1: me and Rosie was I just stopped arguing with her.
Speaker 1: I really did, Like, there's no negotiation, there's no arguing.
Speaker 1: If you look. This is well documented in the literature
Speaker 1: Western culture is the only culture that argues with children like, oh,
Speaker 1: my god, what is wrong with us? And by us? Me?
Speaker 1: I don't know. And I also knew this study where
Speaker 1: this woman documents in l A actually this conversation this
Speaker 1: dad has with a kid about tying his shoes, and
Speaker 1: it just you see it on the page. You're like,
Speaker 1: this is ridiculous. Like, you know, if I feel a
Speaker 1: power struggle or negotiation or anything that's like an argument,
Speaker 1: I just like tap around the shoulder and say, you
Speaker 1: know what, I'm not gonna argue with you, and I
Speaker 1: walk away. I'm trying that tomorrow. My son wouldn't leave.
Speaker 1: He's in he's just started preschool this week and really
Speaker 1: really didn't want to leave because he's having so much fun.
Speaker 1: And we had to leave quickly to get and be
Speaker 1: here in time for this podcast. And I was like,
Speaker 1: we have to leave, Yeah, right, never gonna happen. The
Speaker 1: kid's gonna have a fucking tantrum, he's getting upset, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. So the teacher says, you know what I'll
Speaker 1: be I'm gonna let you borrow one little car and
Speaker 1: you'll bring it back to school tomorrow, you know, And
Speaker 1: my son's like, no, how about three cars? And she's like,
Speaker 1: all right, I'm gonna change my plan and we're going
Speaker 1: to give you two cars. And he's like, no, no,
Speaker 1: I want three cars and she's like no, I said one,
Speaker 1: then you said three, and now we're landing it too.
Speaker 1: And I'm like this is taking fifteen fucking minutes, like
Speaker 1: and like why why we should have just said we're
Speaker 1: fucking leaving. And I walk out the door. One or
Speaker 1: none kids, That's what I said, one or none, kid,
Speaker 1: I'm out of here, like you can sleep outside at school,
Speaker 1: like I'm out, Like I just yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: gotten I've gotten out of control with the negotiating and
Speaker 1: the arguing. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Three and a half
Speaker 1: year old, It's like, it's so ridiculous. You know, you asked,
Speaker 1: like why are we doing it? And it's something we
Speaker 1: didn't touch on much. But I think a problem is
Speaker 1: who we're looking to it for advice is too narrow,
Speaker 1: Like we've just decided that these are like particular experts,
Speaker 1: you know, with agrees or not degrees. And we've also
Speaker 1: relied too much own science, which is really bad at
Speaker 1: a changing behavior and helping us with behavioral issues. One
Speaker 1: of the things that I hope the book does is say, oh, look,
Speaker 1: we need to value a lot more voices in this
Speaker 1: parenting world, and we need to we need to kind
Speaker 1: of reconsider who we think is an expert, because our
Speaker 1: advice comes from this incredibly narrow view and it's gotten
Speaker 1: us in this weird often this weird tangents, in this
Speaker 1: weird world of negotiating with a three year old over trumps.
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, and then I was like five minutes late,
Speaker 1: and I was like, are you joking? Like that's what
Speaker 1: I spent my afternoon doing. This is ridiculous, Michaelan, take
Speaker 1: your time, Philip sentence. For me, parenthood is oh, that's
Speaker 1: a that's hard. I know, I know. I want to
Speaker 1: say like as hell on Earth, that's probably not pair.
Speaker 1: Parenthood is like everything I'm gonna say is going to
Speaker 1: sound cheesy. Hey, that's okay, that's okay, okay. I think
Speaker 1: for me, parenthood is learning to back away, wait a
Speaker 1: bit before interfering. It's about learning to have confidence in
Speaker 1: other people, including little ones, you know, confident that they
Speaker 1: know what they need and they're they're gonna go get it. Um,
Speaker 1: that's that. M It's been a mole interference. I really
Speaker 1: parenthood for you is the team situation. I think parenthood togetherness, encouragement, autonomy,
Speaker 1: and minimal interference. Yes, you nailed it. Which, by the way,
Speaker 1: like I'm saying it out loud to you so that
Speaker 1: I can repeat it to myself. You guys, team togetherness, encouragement, autonomy,
Speaker 1: minimal interference, and we all know. Thank you to Michael
Speaker 1: and her book and this podcast what team means. I
Speaker 1: cannot thank you enough Michaeleen for coming on Katie's Crib.
Speaker 1: This was so helpful and so informative and very eye opening.
Speaker 1: It's honestly a relief. Yeah, I'm glad you say that
Speaker 1: I felt that way. I have felt that way, like
Speaker 1: like because I just think it would be such a
Speaker 1: relief to go into parenting this afternoon and tomorrow just
Speaker 1: like doing less and being remaining and remaining really calm
Speaker 1: and just moving on and when there's terrible bad behavior,
Speaker 1: it's like I'm not going to tolerate that and we're done,
Speaker 1: like I'm not walk away. Yeah. I think it's really
Speaker 1: really excellent. Um, thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib. Michaelean universe and everyone get Hunter, gather parent,
Speaker 1: Thank you wonderful, helpful, enjoyable, and it feels like a massage.
Speaker 1: It's like the stress level just comes down. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Thank you guys so much for listening to
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib. I hope you enjoyed the episode with Michaeleen.
Speaker 1: Please share, subscribe, tell your friends about it, and also
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. Send me an email
Speaker 1: at Katie's Crib at Shawnda land dot com. Katie's Crib
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