WEBVTT - Parenting Lessons from Ancient Cultures w/ Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.520 Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:09.959 in partnership with I Heart Radio. Parenthood is learning to 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:17.520 back away, wait a bit before interfering. It's about learning 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:28.320 to have confidence in other people, including little ones, Hi, everybody, 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.159 and welcome back to Katie's Crib Today. On this episode, 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:34.800 we are going way back, like way way way back, 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.519 and all over the world we are looking at ancient 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.920 practices and different cultures of how to parent. I get 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:45.559 the sneaking suspicion that here in America we are just, 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:49.479 I don't know, like making things way harder than they 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:53.559 have to be. So we have on today. Dr Michaelan 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:57.200 Duclef She is a correspondent for NPR Science Desk. In 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:58.920 two thousand fifteen, she was part of the team that 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.600 earned a George Foster Peabody Award for its coverage of 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:05.080 the Ebola outbreak in West Africa, and before joining NPR, 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:07.520 Dr Dukeleff was an editor at the journal Cell, where 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.400 she wrote about the science behind pop culture. She has 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.760 a doctorate in chemistry from the University of California, Berkeley. 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.040 She is a master's degree in viticulture and analogy from 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.720 the University of California Davis, and we're gonna be talking 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:25.080 about her new book. It's called Hunt Gather Parent, What 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.720 Ancient Cultures can teach Us about the Lost art of 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:31.200 raising happy, helpful little humans. Let's hear about what other 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:37.040 people are doing around the world. Um now, Dr Dukleff, 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:39.160 is that you can call me Michael. You can call 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:43.080 me Michael. Okay, it's very very nice of you, guys. Michaelean, 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.840 I absolutely I love that name. What is that? It's 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.960 like the Irish form of like, like Kathleen or Colleen. 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.880 It's like the feminine form of Michael. That's supposedly amazing. 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:57.840 How never heard of that in my life. I think 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.840 that Micheline, the French version, is more common than Michael. 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:07.520 I mean, I love it. It's amazing. I am a 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:12.320 huge fan, um for all of our listeners. Dr mike 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:17.280 Leen uh Duke Left wrote this amazing book called Hunt 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.000 Gather Parent, What Ancient Cultures Can teach Us about the 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:27.960 Lost art of raising happy, helpful little humans. Help, Boss, 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:33.440 We're drowning, and by we, I shouldn't be speaking for everyone. 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:37.240 I have to learn that me I'm drowning. Help Okay, 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:42.800 first and foremost you are a mom to a glorious 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:47.320 little girl named Rosie. Right, Yes, glorious is one way 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.320 to put it. Dynamic, that's the word I used to 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.800 describe my three and a half year old son. Tell 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:56.640 me about Rosie. Tell me about her temperament. Tell me 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:59.000 how old she is. Have you always wanted to be 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.040 a mom? Tell me all stuff. Um, so, Rosie is 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.400 now five, but when we started on this journey, she 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:07.280 was to two and a half three um, and she 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:12.320 has always just been like hot tempered, fiery, fire in 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:15.280 the belly kid, like the baby. It was like crying. 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.000 And but then as when she turned into a toddler, 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.720 it was tantrums and you know, even physical abuse. I say, like, 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:23.520 you know, she would have a tantrum and I would 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.120 try to pick her up and hold her and she 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.120 would just like slap me across the face. Even in public. 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:31.880 It was it was awful to be honest with you 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.680 and what we're what would you do? Like E then? 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:41.200 Were you grasping at straws? Were you trying everything constantly 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.920 screaming back time outs? Tell me all of your tactics. 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.960 I mean the first thing is just like run out 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:49.760 of the store because I know I'm going to get 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.720 like an onslaught of people like you know, shaming me 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.200 or you know, but I tried everything. I've read so 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.520 many books and I googled and read so many blog posts, 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.080 and you know, I tried to really be firm or 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:04.720 you know, set the boundaries. I think one of the 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.960 advices was like, you know, grab the hand before it hits, 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:13.400 and it was just like I can't coordinated. It turned 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.240 into just ducking, you know, like I literally would pick 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:18.840 her up and like duck. And I felt actually like 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.279 anything I did just made things worse. I really felt 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.479 that way for a long time. I say in the 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:26.400 book like I would lay in bed in the mornings 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:31.440 and just kind of dread waking up having her wake up. Abs. Okay, 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:33.120 first of all, if we're going to get real and 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.080 get honest, which is what we do on this podcast, 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.200 if you're a mother that has never felt like I 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.200 don't believe it. I just don't believe it, you're lying 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:45.960 because every mom has had weeks, months, years, mornings evenings 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:47.960 where they're like please don't wake up from the nap, 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:49.960 or like I just I am not ready to start 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.800 this day, Like when my son sleeps in and gives 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.400 me an extra fifteen minutes. It's like, and I'm not 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:57.520 talking about sleep. I'm just talking about fifteen minutes where 0:04:57.560 --> 0:04:59.640 I'm not seeing him and I love him. But like, 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:05.240 if hard, it's hard, and it sounds like Rosie, it 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.320 was very hard. Yeah, And we didn't really have a 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:10.560 We didn't even know it really because we didn't know 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:12.360 anything else. We were just kind of like, oh, we're 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:17.359 horrible parents. You know, we're totally failing. Like I'm with 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:19.039 my husband and I we wouldn't say it, We're like, 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.880 we're just the we're horrible. And also you would come 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.880 from it's not like you were a parenting specially like 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.159 any of this hat like before Rosie, Okay, you have 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:31.159 a doctorate in chemistry from the University of California, Berkeley. 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:36.960 You have a master's degree in viticulture. Yeah, that's like winemaking. Yeah, 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:42.159 so that helped somewhat. Yes, that and analogy from the 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.800 University of California Davis. Like, it's not like you had 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:50.360 any tools until you were thrown into it at to 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.440 to figure this ship out. So tell me how you 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.760 came to the idea of this book and how you 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:00.640 currently parent. So right at the same time that this 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:04.680 was happening, just like completely independently, MPR, where I'm a correspondent, 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.479 sent me down to the Yucatan in Mexico, to a 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.200 small Maya village to do a different story, a story 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.120 about children's attention. There had been some studies I'd read 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.560 and I was interested in following up on that um 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:18.880 And when I got down there, to be honest, I 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.440 mean I was just shocked at at the moms. You know, 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.160 I spent most of the time with the mom's um 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:29.119 in particularly this one mom Maria tumburgis like she has 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.880 five kids, three girls that are four to twelve, and 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:39.559 she related to them in such a calm, conflict free way. 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:42.200 She was calm, but she was also confident, like she 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:46.560 was in charge clearly um. But there was no yelling, 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:51.040 no bickering, no negotiating, And her kids were great. They 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:55.080 were kind and generous and super super helpful, And this 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:58.080 was common with many of the families. And I I 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.440 left there just being like, is there a better way 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:03.640 to do this than like what I'm seeing and what 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.200 I've been taught and how my mom raised me, is 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:08.839 you know what's going on? Like I want to learn 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.400 how she does this. Um, I kind of left and 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:14.200 I tried to find it in parenting books, and I 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.080 started to realize we have such a narrow view in 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.800 parenting books, and I started reading more. And then I 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.200 actually went up to the Arctic for another story, not 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.440 about about anger actually, but but I saw a similar 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:29.720 approach to relating to children, this very calm, confident way, 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:34.120 very conflict free. And again the children were respectful and 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:38.640 kind and helpful. And so I started reading more and realizing, like, Okay, 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.000 this is actually a really common way of relating to 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.640 kids around the world, and in many ways, what we 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.680 do in the US, many many Americans is the exception. 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:51.800 And actually we're making our lives like much harder and uh, 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:56.400 just so such an exhausting way of parenting. This is amazing. 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:01.240 I'm I'm already feeling relief. I'm like, you're telling me 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:06.240 doing less could get me more, Okay, great, tell me, um, Okay, 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:10.840 so you start to notice that in the Yucatan and 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.480 in the Arctic people are parenting differently. Did you go 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:19.000 other places? And when did you decide to write this book? 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.560 So after the Arctic trip, I started to really read 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.200 about childhood in different parts of the world and historically 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:29.440 our human history, like over tens of thousands of years. 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:31.400 And what I started to realize is that there's this 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.760 common way of relating to children. It's likely thousands of 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.120 years old, the parents all over the world, every continent, 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.200 have turned to over and over again. And yet and 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.560 like the last hundred two hundred years, many families in 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:48.000 the US have lost key elements of it for various reasons, 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:50.440 and in place of it, we've kind of turned to 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:54.760 these kind of crazy, strange, exhausting ways of relating to 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.360 children that you don't find anywhere else in the world 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.280 or throughout human history. Many of these things I think 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.120 are actually not only making us exhaustive, but I think 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.440 they're also doing our children at disservice In some ways. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.360 I think they're causing anxiety and stress and depression. And 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:13.040 so at that point I was like, Okay, I want 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.600 to learn as much as I can about this um, 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:20.160 mostly very selfishly, just because or Rosie, and for yourself 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.600 and for your marriage and for like your like your skincare, 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:28.439 and like element lord um. And so then I actually 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:30.600 it's not in the book, but I actually thought of 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:32.440 taking her with me on these trips. So I was like, Okay, 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.800 I'm gonna go back to the Maya village and back 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:36.960 up to the Arctic, and I'm also going to go 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.720 to a place where humans come from, where humans evolved 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.120 in in Africa and East Africa and Tanzania. Um, and 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.320 I'm gonna take Rosie with me, and I'm gonna see 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.760 if they can they can help me. You know, really, 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.840 I would leave tomorrow, honestly, if that was an option 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.280 right now, I would do the same. Okay, so you 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:00.520 take Rosie with you to opposite ends of the world 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:05.200 and what happens. You know. The first trip to to 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:07.760 the U Tan was really hard. The trip was just 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.240 kind of a nightmare. And I know those moms just 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.960 thought I was the worst parent on the planet. But 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.160 they didn't really tell me much. They didn't really u 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.400 shame me. They were you know, But but I could 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.640 see how they interacted with Rosie very differently, and how 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.680 Rosie settled under under their wings, so to speak. Especially Maria, 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.959 like how that calmness really started to change her. That's 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.079 when I started to really understand, like, oh, she needs 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.840 me to be calm, she needs me to stop talking, 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.040 stop telling her what to do and just kind of 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.559 be there with this calm energy and all this stuff 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.959 I'm doing to fix things and stop our tangerums. It's 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.600 the opposite. So what you were doing when she had 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.080 a tangum, let's say, talking to her a lot, taking 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.600 things away and like tell me what you would have done, 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.199 you know, I mean it would start off very nice, like, oh, 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.719 what's wrong? Are you okay? Or what do you need? 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.360 Do you want something to drink or you don't want 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.720 to you know, this kind of a barrage of words, nice, 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.600 nice words, right, um, And then things would get worse, 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.280 and then you know, it would turn into anger, right, 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:15.680 like why are you doing this? Now? You got to 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.200 stop this? And it would very quickly escalate to anger. 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:23.080 And then that was the worst, right because my anger 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.200 like fueled her anger and then that's when she would 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.920 like hit me or she was also biting me. Um. Nice, great, 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.800 great great great. So the moms that you brought Rosie 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.560 to in the Ukutan when they saw her doing this, 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.760 what were the tactics they used? They actually left it 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:45.080 up to the kids to handle her, which was really interesting. So, 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.360 like they were always kids around from four to sixteen 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:50.360 and a lot of the kids would come over and 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.160 start tickling her, and we have these pictures that were 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.320 like lying on the ground, like three kids like tickling her, 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.719 and yeah, it was actually really brilliant. She would run 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.600 away and they chase her, and I asked her, do 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:04.640 you do you like that? Because it looked like she 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.920 didn't like it, but she was like, I love it, Mama. 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.839 It was so fun and it did. It stopped it 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:14.560 like instantaneously. And I actually when I really was getting 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:16.720 angry at her after that, Like if I just had 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:18.360 a lot of anger and I didn't know what to 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:22.240 do with it, I would start tickling her. Tell me 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:29.679 the major three, let's say, differences between our Western civilization 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:35.440 parenting versus what you found in Tanzania, Yucatan, and the Arctic. Yeah, 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.600 so the number one is calm. So when we got 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:42.240 up to the Arctic, this wonderful woman Elizabeth to Kumiyak, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:46.000 she was our interpreter, and she really showed me how 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.559 to handle Rosie's tantrums. She started to realize, this woman 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:51.520 really needs my help, and she started to show me 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.599 like what to do. And so one day Rosie was 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.199 having a tantrum in the road, Um. It was about 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.320 ten o'clock at night, the sun was still up because 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.800 it's an arctic and she just walked over to her 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:08.480 like so calm. She hardly said anything. Her voice was 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:13.960 down here, and she said, in the sweetest, softest voice, Rosie, 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.960 do you see the sunset? The pink in the purple? 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:20.400 And it was the I mean, a calmness that we 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.160 I rarely ever see in my life, you know, I 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:28.520 mean just everything went down her face like lost expression, 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.960 and it was incredible, Like Rosie just stopped, she just 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.400 stopped screaming. I saw this happen a couple of times, 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.880 and I was like, oh, this is really what she 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.280 needs me to do. Um. And when I got back, 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:45.439 I read about it, and I read like, how, you know, 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.360 there's a lot of science behind this that kids emotions 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.800 and energy state mirrors ours, and so when we come 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.440 at them with all these words, even if we're trying 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.840 to be nice, you know, it's just raises their energy 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.839 and raises that level. Um. So that is the first thing. 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:06.160 It's just how little words are often used and how 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:10.600 calm parents are around young kids. Um. And I think 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.320 that teaches children to be calm. Of course, it's amazing 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:18.040 and how to regulate their own emotions before they take 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.800 any sort of action, which is a great reminder for 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:25.000 us as well. Okay, what else, So the other big, 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.480 big thing is about what kids rules are in the house. 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:33.400 So we have this sense often that kids need to 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:38.240 be entertained or educated or stimulated kind of we need 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.080 to manage their schedule and we need to keep them busy, 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:42.960 we need to fill up their time, right like, oh, 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.280 what are we going to do this weekend? Um? And 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.680 this idea is really strange. I don't think any other 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.920 culture in the world or throughout human history has has 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.280 thought of kids this way. It's up to kids to 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.560 manage their time. Um And. So other cultures don't have 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.560 these like child centered active These like Mommy and Me 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:05.240 aren't class or kiddy museums or special birthday parties like 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.320 activities that are designed just for kids and the parents 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.320 would never do if they didn't have a child. Oh 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:15.120 my god. So like I don't have to go to 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:17.840 Lego Land because I don't want to go there on 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.200 my vacation. You know what I mean? You know you 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.200 don't have to go, and I am no longer going. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.920 I stopped going to birthday parties even you know, before 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.200 the pandemic, I stopped going to kidding museums. I'm like, 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.960 I'm done. I'm done with these things. They are not 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.920 good for our children, and I don't want them. Wow, 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:38.120 this is fascinating. So it's like so in other cultures, 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:42.680 it's like, Okay, them being bored is a good thing them. Yeah, 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.680 having nothing to do is a good thing. Then being 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.120 overscheduled is a good thing. I mean, it's a terrible thing. 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.440 Under scheduled is a good thing. Tell me more, tell 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:55.760 me more on this. So this is what I learned 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:00.800 largely with with the Maya families. So the kids go 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.120 to school, right, they go to school, um, but it's 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.760 what they do after school and on the weekends. So 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.240 the parents just go about their lives. They have like hobbies, 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.760 they work, they socialized, they do all the things that 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.040 they do you know before they had kids. And they 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:18.800 let the kids kind of hang out and tag along 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.440 if they want, as long as they are somewhat appropriately behaved. 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:24.160 And if they're not, you know, they tell them they 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:25.800 have to go, they have to go back home, or 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.320 they have to go you know with a relative. Um. 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.120 But they try to teach them to be in that 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.720 adult world. They let them participate in the adult world. 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.160 I think this does a couple of a couple of things. 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.560 I think first of all, it teaches children how to 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.880 grow up and mature right and how to act when 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.520 you know, in adult places. But too, I think it 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:50.680 teaches kids to cooperate and work together with their families, 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.720 which I think is something we have really lost. I 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:58.920 think kids, when when they're constantly scheduled I'm catered to, yes, exactly, 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.960 cater to, they turned into these like v I P 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.359 members of the family. So when you try to go 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:06.360 get them, you know, to wash the dishes or help 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.520 with the laundry, they're like, but that's not my job. Yeah, 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:11.960 talk to me about chores. Have you seen a chore 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:29.159 chart in the Yucatan. I'm gonna guess not. No. So 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.159 when you have a kid places other than America, the 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.320 kid comes along and as a part of your life, 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:37.679 not vice versa. Okay, so you're taking the kid to 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:41.000 your wine tastings on a Saturday, or you're hanging out 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:42.800 in a friend's house, like, they come and they better 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.119 be fucking well behaved otherwise we have to leave Like 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.040 this is this is my life and I am not 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.680 living in yours right, right, So it's really interesting. One, 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.760 there's no the child centered activities, right, it's just activities 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.480 for the family. But the second thing is is that 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.040 the kid, starting from the time that they can walk, 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:06.399 are expected to help a little bit with basically all housework, 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.520 in all work. It goes on. So from the time 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.800 that they start to walk, parents told me, and this 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.840 is also documented in a bunch of research, they'll say, like, 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.359 you know, go grab my shoes, or go, you know, 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:21.760 go give this to your father. Right, So they're already 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:25.800 starting to teach the child how to help and work 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.200 together with them. And then as the child gets a 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.560 little bit older, the task get a little bit bigger. 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.640 At the table, you have to clear your plate, come 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.080 help me make dinner. You have to take your dirty 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:40.800 laundry and put it in the laundry machine or whatever. Okay, 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:46.000 So I'm a firm believer in this um. We had 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.080 an amazing author on the show who was basically like 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:53.680 the two things that in Western culture that we can 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.080 point to that make a successful and adult. And I 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.480 don't mean successful in terms of money, I mean successful 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:02.439 in terms of like being relationships and have like you know, 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:07.040 and and good mental health. Yeah exactly is they had 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:12.080 a part time job and or always did chores around 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:17.680 the house and and so I am about that. I'm 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:19.600 about that. But I don't want to make a church chart. 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.320 I didn't grow up with one. I really don't want 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:23.439 to do a gold star situation. But I do have 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.000 a kid who when I'm like, let's help with this, 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:31.760 he says no. So so the how old is he? 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.840 How old are be? In a half? Okay? Okay, So 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.000 the church chart is problematic, some would say. Some psychologists 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:41.359 would say, because it basically teaches the child these are 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:45.119 your tasks and your only tasks, right, And what the 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.920 Maya families are doing are teaching the child to pay 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.000 attention and look around and see what needs to be 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.760 done and then help other people, like what who needs help? Right? 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.240 So they're teaching them a really like bigger skill. It's 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.920 called a comma dido or hamadida. It means like, I'm 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.919 paying attention. Oh look my mom started doing the dishes, 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.560 let me go over and help her, or you know, 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:09.720 oh look dad's carrying the groceries, and let me go 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:14.119 grab a bag. Right, So they're teaching like cooperativity and 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.080 and how to be a good family member. Where's that 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.439 short chart kind of just says, Okay, you're supposed to 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.560 like sweep on Thursdays and do the dishes, and also 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:23.840 why do you get a reward for that? I don't 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.520 get Oh yeah, do you know what I mean? Like that, 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.200 absolutely all know that trickiness from the potty training podcast 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:32.359 we did. But it's like, oh God, you are digging 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.880 yourself into a hole. Because your kids smart, so if 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.520 you gave them a gummy bear for that, they're going 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.320 to expect at least a gummy bear next time, if 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:44.720 not too. Yeah, And psychology shows like if you actually 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:48.000 want kids to do something, voluntarily giving them a reward 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:52.679 will like backfire, right yeah. Also, I think with the 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.040 short thing it's really hard. Like I'm thinking about my 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:59.120 own household and how you know a lot of times 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.880 pay errants do the cleaning everything like that because it's 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:08.440 just faster. Right. Yes, this is huge. It's my patient's 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:11.439 problem where it's like I'll be sitting right here and 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.320 he's told me he's bored, and I'm putting laundry and 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.680 the laundry machine. It's like Okay, hell, can you sort 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:23.959 the dark colors from the from the white colors and 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:26.840 put the dark colors like? But I know that that's 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:30.720 going to take an additional ten minutes. But I feel like, 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:34.840 going back to what you said about the calmness, I 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.560 do such a better job at this on Saturdays and Sundays. 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:40.520 And so I feel like this is such a bigger 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:44.600 issue of how we are as a civilization right now, 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:47.840 in how fast we do things. The phone this in 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:50.000 our face, the need to get things done, the need 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:51.560 to do a thousand things in a day, and it 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:56.800 sort of goes very much against what our children need 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:01.040 us to be, which is calmer, slower, Yeah, to do 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.879 everything together as a family unit. And is this making 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:08.000 it doesn't sound correct? I think you're absolutely right. I think, um, 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:12.000 there's definitely more patients with kids what I saw, not 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:15.639 infinite patients, but a little bit more. The thing for 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.639 our family is, since I chucked out the like kiddy 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:23.760 museums and birthday parties, the activity is the chores great, 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:28.679 So I'm like, that's it. Kids like laundry on Saturday morning, 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:32.400 you know, dinner is the afternoon, you know? Is the activity. 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.640 So so I've given yourself a lot more time because 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:38.040 I'm just like, we're not rushing around to some event 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:41.240 that I don't want to go to. Right, great, great, great, 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:44.400 this is great. Yeah. So definitely I had to learn 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.760 to have more patients, there's no doubt. Um. But I 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:50.880 also stop scheduling us so much so that I could 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:53.119