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Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio

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Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Parenthood is learning to

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Speaker 1: back away, wait a bit before interfering. It's about learning

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Speaker 1: to have confidence in other people, including little ones, Hi, everybody,

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Speaker 1: and welcome back to Katie's Crib Today. On this episode,

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Speaker 1: we are going way back, like way way way back,

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Speaker 1: and all over the world we are looking at ancient

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Speaker 1: practices and different cultures of how to parent. I get

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Speaker 1: the sneaking suspicion that here in America we are just,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, like making things way harder than they

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Speaker 1: have to be. So we have on today. Dr Michaelan

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Speaker 1: Duclef She is a correspondent for NPR Science Desk. In

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Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen, she was part of the team that

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Speaker 1: earned a George Foster Peabody Award for its coverage of

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Speaker 1: the Ebola outbreak in West Africa, and before joining NPR,

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Speaker 1: Dr Dukeleff was an editor at the journal Cell, where

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Speaker 1: she wrote about the science behind pop culture. She has

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Speaker 1: a doctorate in chemistry from the University of California, Berkeley.

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Speaker 1: She is a master's degree in viticulture and analogy from

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Speaker 1: the University of California Davis, and we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about her new book. It's called Hunt Gather Parent, What

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Speaker 1: Ancient Cultures can teach Us about the Lost art of

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Speaker 1: raising happy, helpful little humans. Let's hear about what other

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Speaker 1: people are doing around the world. Um now, Dr Dukleff,

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Speaker 1: is that you can call me Michael. You can call

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Speaker 1: me Michael. Okay, it's very very nice of you, guys. Michaelean,

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Speaker 1: I absolutely I love that name. What is that? It's

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Speaker 1: like the Irish form of like, like Kathleen or Colleen.

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Speaker 1: It's like the feminine form of Michael. That's supposedly amazing.

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Speaker 1: How never heard of that in my life. I think

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Speaker 1: that Micheline, the French version, is more common than Michael.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love it. It's amazing. I am a

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Speaker 1: huge fan, um for all of our listeners. Dr mike

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Speaker 1: Leen uh Duke Left wrote this amazing book called Hunt

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Speaker 1: Gather Parent, What Ancient Cultures Can teach Us about the

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Speaker 1: Lost art of raising happy, helpful little humans. Help, Boss,

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Speaker 1: We're drowning, and by we, I shouldn't be speaking for everyone.

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Speaker 1: I have to learn that me I'm drowning. Help Okay,

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Speaker 1: first and foremost you are a mom to a glorious

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Speaker 1: little girl named Rosie. Right, Yes, glorious is one way

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Speaker 1: to put it. Dynamic, that's the word I used to

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Speaker 1: describe my three and a half year old son. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about Rosie. Tell me about her temperament. Tell me

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Speaker 1: how old she is. Have you always wanted to be

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Speaker 1: a mom? Tell me all stuff. Um, so, Rosie is

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Speaker 1: now five, but when we started on this journey, she

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Speaker 1: was to two and a half three um, and she

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Speaker 1: has always just been like hot tempered, fiery, fire in

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Speaker 1: the belly kid, like the baby. It was like crying.

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Speaker 1: And but then as when she turned into a toddler,

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Speaker 1: it was tantrums and you know, even physical abuse. I say, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, she would have a tantrum and I would

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Speaker 1: try to pick her up and hold her and she

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Speaker 1: would just like slap me across the face. Even in public.

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Speaker 1: It was it was awful to be honest with you

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Speaker 1: and what we're what would you do? Like E then?

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Speaker 1: Were you grasping at straws? Were you trying everything constantly

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Speaker 1: screaming back time outs? Tell me all of your tactics.

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Speaker 1: I mean the first thing is just like run out

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Speaker 1: of the store because I know I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: like an onslaught of people like you know, shaming me

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Speaker 1: or you know, but I tried everything. I've read so

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Speaker 1: many books and I googled and read so many blog posts,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I tried to really be firm or

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Speaker 1: you know, set the boundaries. I think one of the

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Speaker 1: advices was like, you know, grab the hand before it hits,

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Speaker 1: and it was just like I can't coordinated. It turned

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Speaker 1: into just ducking, you know, like I literally would pick

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Speaker 1: her up and like duck. And I felt actually like

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Speaker 1: anything I did just made things worse. I really felt

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Speaker 1: that way for a long time. I say in the

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Speaker 1: book like I would lay in bed in the mornings

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Speaker 1: and just kind of dread waking up having her wake up. Abs. Okay,

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Speaker 1: first of all, if we're going to get real and

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Speaker 1: get honest, which is what we do on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: if you're a mother that has never felt like I

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Speaker 1: don't believe it. I just don't believe it, you're lying

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Speaker 1: because every mom has had weeks, months, years, mornings evenings

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Speaker 1: where they're like please don't wake up from the nap,

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Speaker 1: or like I just I am not ready to start

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Speaker 1: this day, Like when my son sleeps in and gives

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Speaker 1: me an extra fifteen minutes. It's like, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: talking about sleep. I'm just talking about fifteen minutes where

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Speaker 1: I'm not seeing him and I love him. But like,

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Speaker 1: if hard, it's hard, and it sounds like Rosie, it

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Speaker 1: was very hard. Yeah, And we didn't really have a

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Speaker 1: We didn't even know it really because we didn't know

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Speaker 1: anything else. We were just kind of like, oh, we're

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Speaker 1: horrible parents. You know, we're totally failing. Like I'm with

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Speaker 1: my husband and I we wouldn't say it, We're like,

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Speaker 1: we're just the we're horrible. And also you would come

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Speaker 1: from it's not like you were a parenting specially like

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Speaker 1: any of this hat like before Rosie, Okay, you have

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Speaker 1: a doctorate in chemistry from the University of California, Berkeley.

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Speaker 1: You have a master's degree in viticulture. Yeah, that's like winemaking. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that helped somewhat. Yes, that and analogy from the

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Speaker 1: University of California Davis. Like, it's not like you had

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Speaker 1: any tools until you were thrown into it at to

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Speaker 1: to figure this ship out. So tell me how you

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Speaker 1: came to the idea of this book and how you

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Speaker 1: currently parent. So right at the same time that this

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Speaker 1: was happening, just like completely independently, MPR, where I'm a correspondent,

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Speaker 1: sent me down to the Yucatan in Mexico, to a

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Speaker 1: small Maya village to do a different story, a story

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Speaker 1: about children's attention. There had been some studies I'd read

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Speaker 1: and I was interested in following up on that um

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Speaker 1: And when I got down there, to be honest, I

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Speaker 1: mean I was just shocked at at the moms. You know,

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Speaker 1: I spent most of the time with the mom's um

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Speaker 1: in particularly this one mom Maria tumburgis like she has

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Speaker 1: five kids, three girls that are four to twelve, and

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Speaker 1: she related to them in such a calm, conflict free way.

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Speaker 1: She was calm, but she was also confident, like she

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Speaker 1: was in charge clearly um. But there was no yelling,

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Speaker 1: no bickering, no negotiating, And her kids were great. They

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Speaker 1: were kind and generous and super super helpful, And this

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Speaker 1: was common with many of the families. And I I

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Speaker 1: left there just being like, is there a better way

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Speaker 1: to do this than like what I'm seeing and what

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Speaker 1: I've been taught and how my mom raised me, is

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Speaker 1: you know what's going on? Like I want to learn

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Speaker 1: how she does this. Um, I kind of left and

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Speaker 1: I tried to find it in parenting books, and I

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Speaker 1: started to realize we have such a narrow view in

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Speaker 1: parenting books, and I started reading more. And then I

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Speaker 1: actually went up to the Arctic for another story, not

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Speaker 1: about about anger actually, but but I saw a similar

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Speaker 1: approach to relating to children, this very calm, confident way,

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Speaker 1: very conflict free. And again the children were respectful and

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Speaker 1: kind and helpful. And so I started reading more and realizing, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is actually a really common way of relating to

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Speaker 1: kids around the world, and in many ways, what we

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Speaker 1: do in the US, many many Americans is the exception.

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Speaker 1: And actually we're making our lives like much harder and uh,

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Speaker 1: just so such an exhausting way of parenting. This is amazing.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm already feeling relief. I'm like, you're telling me

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Speaker 1: doing less could get me more, Okay, great, tell me, um, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so you start to notice that in the Yucatan and

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Speaker 1: in the Arctic people are parenting differently. Did you go

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Speaker 1: other places? And when did you decide to write this book?

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Speaker 1: So after the Arctic trip, I started to really read

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Speaker 1: about childhood in different parts of the world and historically

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Speaker 1: our human history, like over tens of thousands of years.

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Speaker 1: And what I started to realize is that there's this

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Speaker 1: common way of relating to children. It's likely thousands of

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Speaker 1: years old, the parents all over the world, every continent,

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Speaker 1: have turned to over and over again. And yet and

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Speaker 1: like the last hundred two hundred years, many families in

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Speaker 1: the US have lost key elements of it for various reasons,

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Speaker 1: and in place of it, we've kind of turned to

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Speaker 1: these kind of crazy, strange, exhausting ways of relating to

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Speaker 1: children that you don't find anywhere else in the world

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Speaker 1: or throughout human history. Many of these things I think

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Speaker 1: are actually not only making us exhaustive, but I think

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Speaker 1: they're also doing our children at disservice In some ways.

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Speaker 1: I think they're causing anxiety and stress and depression. And

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Speaker 1: so at that point I was like, Okay, I want

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Speaker 1: to learn as much as I can about this um,

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Speaker 1: mostly very selfishly, just because or Rosie, and for yourself

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Speaker 1: and for your marriage and for like your like your skincare,

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Speaker 1: and like element lord um. And so then I actually

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Speaker 1: it's not in the book, but I actually thought of

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Speaker 1: taking her with me on these trips. So I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back to the Maya village and back

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Speaker 1: up to the Arctic, and I'm also going to go

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Speaker 1: to a place where humans come from, where humans evolved

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Speaker 1: in in Africa and East Africa and Tanzania. Um, and

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna take Rosie with me, and I'm gonna see

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Speaker 1: if they can they can help me. You know, really,

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Speaker 1: I would leave tomorrow, honestly, if that was an option

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Speaker 1: right now, I would do the same. Okay, so you

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Speaker 1: take Rosie with you to opposite ends of the world

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Speaker 1: and what happens. You know. The first trip to to

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Speaker 1: the U Tan was really hard. The trip was just

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Speaker 1: kind of a nightmare. And I know those moms just

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Speaker 1: thought I was the worst parent on the planet. But

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Speaker 1: they didn't really tell me much. They didn't really u

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Speaker 1: shame me. They were you know, But but I could

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Speaker 1: see how they interacted with Rosie very differently, and how

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Speaker 1: Rosie settled under under their wings, so to speak. Especially Maria,

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Speaker 1: like how that calmness really started to change her. That's

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Speaker 1: when I started to really understand, like, oh, she needs

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Speaker 1: me to be calm, she needs me to stop talking,

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Speaker 1: stop telling her what to do and just kind of

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Speaker 1: be there with this calm energy and all this stuff

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Speaker 1: I'm doing to fix things and stop our tangerums. It's

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Speaker 1: the opposite. So what you were doing when she had

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Speaker 1: a tangum, let's say, talking to her a lot, taking

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Speaker 1: things away and like tell me what you would have done,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean it would start off very nice, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong? Are you okay? Or what do you need?

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Speaker 1: Do you want something to drink or you don't want

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Speaker 1: to you know, this kind of a barrage of words, nice,

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Speaker 1: nice words, right, um, And then things would get worse,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, it would turn into anger, right,

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Speaker 1: like why are you doing this? Now? You got to

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Speaker 1: stop this? And it would very quickly escalate to anger.

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Speaker 1: And then that was the worst, right because my anger

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Speaker 1: like fueled her anger and then that's when she would

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Speaker 1: like hit me or she was also biting me. Um. Nice, great,

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Speaker 1: great great great. So the moms that you brought Rosie

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Speaker 1: to in the Ukutan when they saw her doing this,

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Speaker 1: what were the tactics they used? They actually left it

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Speaker 1: up to the kids to handle her, which was really interesting. So,

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Speaker 1: like they were always kids around from four to sixteen

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the kids would come over and

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Speaker 1: start tickling her, and we have these pictures that were

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Speaker 1: like lying on the ground, like three kids like tickling her,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, it was actually really brilliant. She would run

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Speaker 1: away and they chase her, and I asked her, do

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Speaker 1: you do you like that? Because it looked like she

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Speaker 1: didn't like it, but she was like, I love it, Mama.

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Speaker 1: It was so fun and it did. It stopped it

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Speaker 1: like instantaneously. And I actually when I really was getting

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Speaker 1: angry at her after that, Like if I just had

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Speaker 1: a lot of anger and I didn't know what to

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Speaker 1: do with it, I would start tickling her. Tell me

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Speaker 1: the major three, let's say, differences between our Western civilization

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Speaker 1: parenting versus what you found in Tanzania, Yucatan, and the Arctic. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so the number one is calm. So when we got

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Speaker 1: up to the Arctic, this wonderful woman Elizabeth to Kumiyak,

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Speaker 1: she was our interpreter, and she really showed me how

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Speaker 1: to handle Rosie's tantrums. She started to realize, this woman

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Speaker 1: really needs my help, and she started to show me

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Speaker 1: like what to do. And so one day Rosie was

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Speaker 1: having a tantrum in the road, Um. It was about

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Speaker 1: ten o'clock at night, the sun was still up because

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Speaker 1: it's an arctic and she just walked over to her

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Speaker 1: like so calm. She hardly said anything. Her voice was

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Speaker 1: down here, and she said, in the sweetest, softest voice, Rosie,

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Speaker 1: do you see the sunset? The pink in the purple?

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Speaker 1: And it was the I mean, a calmness that we

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Speaker 1: I rarely ever see in my life, you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean just everything went down her face like lost expression,

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Speaker 1: and it was incredible, Like Rosie just stopped, she just

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Speaker 1: stopped screaming. I saw this happen a couple of times,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, this is really what she

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Speaker 1: needs me to do. Um. And when I got back,

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Speaker 1: I read about it, and I read like, how, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of science behind this that kids emotions

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Speaker 1: and energy state mirrors ours, and so when we come

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Speaker 1: at them with all these words, even if we're trying

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Speaker 1: to be nice, you know, it's just raises their energy

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Speaker 1: and raises that level. Um. So that is the first thing.

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Speaker 1: It's just how little words are often used and how

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Speaker 1: calm parents are around young kids. Um. And I think

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Speaker 1: that teaches children to be calm. Of course, it's amazing

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Speaker 1: and how to regulate their own emotions before they take

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Speaker 1: any sort of action, which is a great reminder for

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Speaker 1: us as well. Okay, what else, So the other big,

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Speaker 1: big thing is about what kids rules are in the house.

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Speaker 1: So we have this sense often that kids need to

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Speaker 1: be entertained or educated or stimulated kind of we need

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Speaker 1: to manage their schedule and we need to keep them busy,

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Speaker 1: we need to fill up their time, right like, oh,

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Speaker 1: what are we going to do this weekend? Um? And

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Speaker 1: this idea is really strange. I don't think any other

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Speaker 1: culture in the world or throughout human history has has

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Speaker 1: thought of kids this way. It's up to kids to

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Speaker 1: manage their time. Um And. So other cultures don't have

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Speaker 1: these like child centered active These like Mommy and Me

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Speaker 1: aren't class or kiddy museums or special birthday parties like

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Speaker 1: activities that are designed just for kids and the parents

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Speaker 1: would never do if they didn't have a child. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god. So like I don't have to go to

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Speaker 1: Lego Land because I don't want to go there on

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Speaker 1: my vacation. You know what I mean? You know you

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Speaker 1: don't have to go, and I am no longer going.

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Speaker 1: I stopped going to birthday parties even you know, before

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Speaker 1: the pandemic, I stopped going to kidding museums. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm done. I'm done with these things. They are not

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Speaker 1: good for our children, and I don't want them. Wow,

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Speaker 1: this is fascinating. So it's like so in other cultures,

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Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, them being bored is a good thing them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: having nothing to do is a good thing. Then being

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Speaker 1: overscheduled is a good thing. I mean, it's a terrible thing.

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Speaker 1: Under scheduled is a good thing. Tell me more, tell

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Speaker 1: me more on this. So this is what I learned

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Speaker 1: largely with with the Maya families. So the kids go

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Speaker 1: to school, right, they go to school, um, but it's

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Speaker 1: what they do after school and on the weekends. So

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Speaker 1: the parents just go about their lives. They have like hobbies,

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Speaker 1: they work, they socialized, they do all the things that

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Speaker 1: they do you know before they had kids. And they

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Speaker 1: let the kids kind of hang out and tag along

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Speaker 1: if they want, as long as they are somewhat appropriately behaved.

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Speaker 1: And if they're not, you know, they tell them they

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Speaker 1: have to go, they have to go back home, or

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Speaker 1: they have to go you know with a relative. Um.

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Speaker 1: But they try to teach them to be in that

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Speaker 1: adult world. They let them participate in the adult world.

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Speaker 1: I think this does a couple of a couple of things.

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Speaker 1: I think first of all, it teaches children how to

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Speaker 1: grow up and mature right and how to act when

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Speaker 1: you know, in adult places. But too, I think it

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Speaker 1: teaches kids to cooperate and work together with their families,

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Speaker 1: which I think is something we have really lost. I

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Speaker 1: think kids, when when they're constantly scheduled I'm catered to, yes, exactly,

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Speaker 1: cater to, they turned into these like v I P

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Speaker 1: members of the family. So when you try to go

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Speaker 1: get them, you know, to wash the dishes or help

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Speaker 1: with the laundry, they're like, but that's not my job. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: talk to me about chores. Have you seen a chore

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Speaker 1: chart in the Yucatan. I'm gonna guess not. No. So

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Speaker 1: when you have a kid places other than America, the

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Speaker 1: kid comes along and as a part of your life,

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Speaker 1: not vice versa. Okay, so you're taking the kid to

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Speaker 1: your wine tastings on a Saturday, or you're hanging out

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Speaker 1: in a friend's house, like, they come and they better

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Speaker 1: be fucking well behaved otherwise we have to leave Like

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Speaker 1: this is this is my life and I am not

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Speaker 1: living in yours right, right, So it's really interesting. One,

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Speaker 1: there's no the child centered activities, right, it's just activities

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Speaker 1: for the family. But the second thing is is that

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Speaker 1: the kid, starting from the time that they can walk,

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Speaker 1: are expected to help a little bit with basically all housework,

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Speaker 1: in all work. It goes on. So from the time

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Speaker 1: that they start to walk, parents told me, and this

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Speaker 1: is also documented in a bunch of research, they'll say, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, go grab my shoes, or go, you know,

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Speaker 1: go give this to your father. Right, So they're already

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Speaker 1: starting to teach the child how to help and work

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Speaker 1: together with them. And then as the child gets a

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Speaker 1: little bit older, the task get a little bit bigger.

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Speaker 1: At the table, you have to clear your plate, come

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Speaker 1: help me make dinner. You have to take your dirty

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Speaker 1: laundry and put it in the laundry machine or whatever. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So I'm a firm believer in this um. We had

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Speaker 1: an amazing author on the show who was basically like

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Speaker 1: the two things that in Western culture that we can

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Speaker 1: point to that make a successful and adult. And I

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Speaker 1: don't mean successful in terms of money, I mean successful

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Speaker 1: in terms of like being relationships and have like you know,

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Speaker 1: and and good mental health. Yeah exactly is they had

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Speaker 1: a part time job and or always did chores around

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Speaker 1: the house and and so I am about that. I'm

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Speaker 1: about that. But I don't want to make a church chart.

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Speaker 1: I didn't grow up with one. I really don't want

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Speaker 1: to do a gold star situation. But I do have

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Speaker 1: a kid who when I'm like, let's help with this,

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Speaker 1: he says no. So so the how old is he?

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Speaker 1: How old are be? In a half? Okay? Okay, So

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Speaker 1: the church chart is problematic, some would say. Some psychologists

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Speaker 1: would say, because it basically teaches the child these are

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Speaker 1: your tasks and your only tasks, right, And what the

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Speaker 1: Maya families are doing are teaching the child to pay

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Speaker 1: attention and look around and see what needs to be

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Speaker 1: done and then help other people, like what who needs help? Right?

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Speaker 1: So they're teaching them a really like bigger skill. It's

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Speaker 1: called a comma dido or hamadida. It means like, I'm

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Speaker 1: paying attention. Oh look my mom started doing the dishes,

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Speaker 1: let me go over and help her, or you know,

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Speaker 1: oh look dad's carrying the groceries, and let me go

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Speaker 1: grab a bag. Right, So they're teaching like cooperativity and

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Speaker 1: and how to be a good family member. Where's that

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Speaker 1: short chart kind of just says, Okay, you're supposed to

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Speaker 1: like sweep on Thursdays and do the dishes, and also

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Speaker 1: why do you get a reward for that? I don't

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Speaker 1: get Oh yeah, do you know what I mean? Like that,

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Speaker 1: absolutely all know that trickiness from the potty training podcast

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Speaker 1: we did. But it's like, oh God, you are digging

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Speaker 1: yourself into a hole. Because your kids smart, so if

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Speaker 1: you gave them a gummy bear for that, they're going

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Speaker 1: to expect at least a gummy bear next time, if

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Speaker 1: not too. Yeah, And psychology shows like if you actually

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Speaker 1: want kids to do something, voluntarily giving them a reward

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Speaker 1: will like backfire, right yeah. Also, I think with the

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Speaker 1: short thing it's really hard. Like I'm thinking about my

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Speaker 1: own household and how you know a lot of times

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Speaker 1: pay errants do the cleaning everything like that because it's

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Speaker 1: just faster. Right. Yes, this is huge. It's my patient's

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Speaker 1: problem where it's like I'll be sitting right here and

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Speaker 1: he's told me he's bored, and I'm putting laundry and

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Speaker 1: the laundry machine. It's like Okay, hell, can you sort

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Speaker 1: the dark colors from the from the white colors and

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Speaker 1: put the dark colors like? But I know that that's

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Speaker 1: going to take an additional ten minutes. But I feel like,

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Speaker 1: going back to what you said about the calmness, I

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Speaker 1: do such a better job at this on Saturdays and Sundays.

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Speaker 1: And so I feel like this is such a bigger

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Speaker 1: issue of how we are as a civilization right now,

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Speaker 1: in how fast we do things. The phone this in

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Speaker 1: our face, the need to get things done, the need

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Speaker 1: to do a thousand things in a day, and it

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Speaker 1: sort of goes very much against what our children need

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Speaker 1: us to be, which is calmer, slower, Yeah, to do

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Speaker 1: everything together as a family unit. And is this making

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Speaker 1: it doesn't sound correct? I think you're absolutely right. I think, um,

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Speaker 1: there's definitely more patients with kids what I saw, not

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Speaker 1: infinite patients, but a little bit more. The thing for

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Speaker 1: our family is, since I chucked out the like kiddy

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Speaker 1: museums and birthday parties, the activity is the chores great,

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, that's it. Kids like laundry on Saturday morning,

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Speaker 1: you know, dinner is the afternoon, you know? Is the activity.

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Speaker 1: So so I've given yourself a lot more time because

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, we're not rushing around to some event

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Speaker 1: that I don't want to go to. Right, great, great, great,

398
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Speaker 1: this is great. Yeah. So definitely I had to learn

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Speaker 1: to have more patients, there's no doubt. Um. But I

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Speaker 1: also stop scheduling us so much so that I could

401
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Speaker 1: have that a little bit more and really absolutely on

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Speaker 1: the weekdays like sometimes I've just like got to get

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Speaker 1: this done, you know, you know, um with your your

404
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: three year olds. Really interesting, I would say, So this

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Speaker 1: is something that actually the Hadzabe parents in Tanzania that

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Speaker 1: I saw taught me, um, really really showed me. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's it's tiny, tiny tasks that teach these little ones

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Speaker 1: and even teach adults like partners who don't know how

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Speaker 1: to cook and clean very well. Okay, yes, so like

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Speaker 1: tiny tiny So instead of like sort the weight in

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Speaker 1: the black, put this shirt in the washing machine, right,

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Speaker 1: is more than enough? More than enough? Or like instead

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Speaker 1: of at the table, it's hand the plate and say

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Speaker 1: put this plate on the table. And I think this

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Speaker 1: does two things. When it's so simple, they're more likely

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Speaker 1: to do it right, and too, they can accomplish something

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Speaker 1: and contribute really fast, and then they're hungry for more.

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Speaker 1: This is like the Hatsabe mom. Like wherever we went

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Speaker 1: the moms, they'd hand a little five year old something

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Speaker 1: to carry, or you know, they'd say go get a bowl.

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Speaker 1: Like it was these I need tiny little childs carry

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Speaker 1: this little piece of wood, right, And I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm over overthinking this. This is just like so with

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Speaker 1: the husband. It's like, grabbed this from the fridge, cut

425
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: this garlic, you know, Chop this garlic. You know. It's

426
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: like these little tasks. They get them included and teach

427
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: them the skill at the same time because they're there

428
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: with you. Did you notice a huge change in Rosie

429
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: and her being by implementing the things you collected from

430
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 1: around the world. Oh my god, incredible transformation. Like so

431
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: the calmness ended the tantrums from like one or two

432
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: a day to like one or two a month in

433
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:44,719
Speaker 1: several weeks really just plummeted. Um Yeah, incredible. I mean

434
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: it took It was more my effort, right, it was

435
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: me learning not to get angry at her and how

436
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: to do that. Um. But once I did and kind

437
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: of convinced her I wasn't going to get angry. She

438
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: just she just stopped like it was. It was really

439
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: amazing wo and then including her in these tasks. So

440
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: I definitely saw a change when we stopped doing the

441
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 1: child centered activities. Like her behavior was always kind of

442
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: bad after those, Like you know, she was like overstimulated

443
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: over sugar. Yeah exactly, and I was too, So it

444
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: was just like a bad combo um. But now we Yeah,

445
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: so a couple of days ago, she was really acting out.

446
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,239
Speaker 1: She was trying to climb on the roof and she

447
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: was up on the roof and it was just like

448
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: and I know, and I said that, And actually so

449
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: our neighbor came over and I was like, oh, they're

450
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: coming to visit us, and it was like, no to

451
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: tell us the kid was on the roof, and I

452
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: was like, ohious, But I said, you know what, she

453
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: needs more responsibility, She needs to have more more of

454
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: a role. And so I said, all right, Rosie, would

455
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: you know, would you like to go up and get

456
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: us some milk from the corner market, just like two

457
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: blocks away in the city. And she just like her

458
00:25:55,119 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: eyes got a wide and was like yeah, you know, amazing,

459
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: And so I actually followed her. This is what I

460
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: learned from Maria and the Yukotan like I followed behind,

461
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: she couldn't see me, and she took the dog with her,

462
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: and the dog knew I was there the whole time.

463
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: And it kept turning around, being like, what are you

464
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: doing lady? You know? But and she did it and

465
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: it was she was great. You know. We we we

466
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: have taught her across the roads and it changed her

467
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: her behavior totally. She was needing more responsibility. It's so interesting.

468
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: We're so protective here. I I hear about other cultures

469
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: and kids like cooking themselves an egg by five years old,

470
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like they already know how

471
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: to do all this ship and like we're sitting over

472
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: here still cutting our kids steak by the time that twelve,

473
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like, um, can you

474
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: talk to me about what team parenting is? Yeah. So

475
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: it's kind of something I just came up with at first,

476
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: so I could remember these things while I was, you know,

477
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: in those hot button moments. But it's kind of this

478
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: common element that you find around the world and in

479
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: pockets of the United States. Now. Um, but a way

480
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: of relating to a child that's based on collaboration instead

481
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: of conflict and power struggles. So the first thing is togetherness.

482
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: There's a lot of evidence that shows that kids are

483
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: really hardwired to do things with you or another caretaker.

484
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: And I want to emphasize in many cultures, the mom

485
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: and the dad play a much smaller role in children's

486
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: lives than here. When I hear this ship, I'm like,

487
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: we're so fucked, Like this is why we're drowning. I mean,

488
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: this is why this podcast exists, which I'm so grateful for.

489
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: But it's like we are literally being asked to do

490
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: the impossible. It's like everyone says it takes a village,

491
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: no literally, and we don't have one. At least it

492
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: takes like four people. You know, It's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous.

493
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, we're in a global pandemic and that

494
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: is unprecedented in terms of the selation we are dealing with.

495
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: But it was bad before then in terms of what

496
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: I mean. I I was so lucky to go to

497
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: Morocco to shoot something right before the pandemic hit, and

498
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: I took my son and we went to a dinner

499
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: party with the Moroccan family and there were just a

500
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: bunch of kids running around. I didn't know where my

501
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: child was, and they said, oh, don't worry, the older

502
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: kids have got him. And I was like, this is

503
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 1: the best. I don't have to like pay a babysitter

504
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: or find something who I've had over before, so I

505
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: could teach them all the rules of Albie and weren't

506
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: know He's going to tell them what he needs. All

507
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: the kids know and they'll come get me if there's

508
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: an issue. This is so this is super common around

509
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: the world. Like even when we went up in the Arctic,

510
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: mom and dads were just like, what you're with your

511
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: child like all the time, she's sick of you, Like

512
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: that's why she's grippy, and that's why we don't want

513
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: to get up, that's why we you don't wake up

514
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: for much longer because it's like, yeah, we're all drowning

515
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: and we all don't want to be with each other

516
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: this much. They literally brought like two or three kids

517
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: over and we're like, take her, take the child. This

518
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: woman needs a break. She got sucked in just like

519
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: you were talking about, and I didn't see her for

520
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: like five hours, best five hours of your life. We

521
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: love our children so getherness for a team means like

522
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: like we're constantly trying. So this is one of the

523
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: big paradoxes in American parenting is we value independence in

524
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: our children and we're always trying to get them to

525
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: be independent, but we do not give them any independence.

526
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: But we'll get to that to say it. But we

527
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: always are kind of forcing kids to do things by themselves,

528
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: right like and and this this goes against their natural

529
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,479
Speaker 1: instincts to work with their family and work together and

530
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: be cooperative. Um. And I also want to say that

531
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: togetherness is not entertaining and stimulating the child. It is

532
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: simply being near the child. It's this like coexistence, like

533
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: you do what you want to do. I'm gonna do

534
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: it what I want to do, and we're gonna kind

535
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: of leave each other alone and help each other we

536
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: need it. So it's a very like peaceful coexistence. It's

537
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: just focusing on together instead of everyone. You know, you

538
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: go do the laundry, and I'm going to go, you know,

539
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: vacuum the floor. No, we're all going to work and

540
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: vacuum clean up the living together. And then we're gonna

541
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: all go do you know the laundry together. This thing

542
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: switching from kind of individualism to more of a cooperative mindset. Wow, okay,

543
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: and then we have e for encouragement. This is big.

544
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: Tell me about this. This is hard. This is so hard.

545
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: So this is the idea that no one likes to

546
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: be forced to do something. I don't like to be forced.

547
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: You don't like to be forced. Why would our kids

548
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: want to be forced to do anything? But that doesn't

549
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: mean we don't try um. And so instead of forcing them,

550
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: we encourage them. And the book gives like a whole

551
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: suite of tools for encouraging the right behavior um instead

552
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: of forcing it, you know, with punishment, scolding vibes. There's

553
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: all these things we can do. So you're a little

554
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: three year old, you could tease him a little bit

555
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: if he says no, you know, you could say, you know, oh,

556
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: because you're a baby, Yeah, you don't help around the house.

557
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: You know, there's like a lot of things you can say.

558
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: Great though, like those sort of things make you look

559
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: down upon, like you're a bad mom if you say

560
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And I'm like, yeah, but he has

561
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: said no a million times and he doesn't want to help,

562
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: and he's being a little ship and like Yeah, he's

563
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: being a jury. Yeah. Like I would put up with

564
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: that from anybody, and I would be like, oh, no,

565
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: you don't want to help because you're being a baby, Okay,

566
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: and then I walk away and then guess what he's

567
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: going to do. He's gonna want to help. I promise

568
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. They don't want to be babies, okay. So

569
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: E for encouragement and then A is for autonomy. Yes,

570
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: this is a big one, um. And so this is

571
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: the idea. We think independence and autonomy are the same,

572
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: but a lot of psychologists would say they're different. And

573
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: here's how. So to me, is like being able to

574
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: make your own decisions, or at least feel like you're

575
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: making your own decisions from moment to moment and your schedule. Right.

576
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: This feeling is connected to all these wonderful mental health things,

577
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: you know, decreased anxiety, decreased stress, confidence, self sufficiency, all

578
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: these great things. Um. But autonomy also means that you're

579
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: looking out for other people. So it's being able to

580
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: make your own decisions, but you're not disrespecting other people.

581
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: You're helping if they need it. So it's a constant

582
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: looking towards others and making sure you're contributing, but at

583
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: the same time, you know, feeling like you're the captain

584
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: of your own team. This is something actually that's super

585
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: common and one of the key values of hunter gatherer

586
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: communities all over the world and is likely the way

587
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: humans and human children have have been raised for like

588
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of years. Give me an example of

589
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: how you would practice autonomy with a kid. So I've

590
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: really started to understand this in Tanzania, to see the

591
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: mom and dad's there, the way that they treated their children.

592
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: And I actually started to count how many things they

593
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: said to children per hour. And there's a study that

594
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: does this in another hunter gatherer community in the Congo Basin. Yeah,

595
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: so like any input, so praise, instruction, commands, and it

596
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: was like around two or three per hour. And what

597
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: are we in America? Sixty? I started clocking mine and

598
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,479
Speaker 1: I was in over over sixty and I just gave up,

599
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: My god, this is not gonna work. This is a problem.

600
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: This is a problem. You know what when I started

601
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: doing it, so I started trying to do it, like Okay,

602
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna like time myself and give myself one per

603
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: twenty minutes, you know, and it's incredible how how good

604
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: the relationship becomes. Wow, because you can also use non

605
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: verbal cues, right, you can like give them looks and

606
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,959
Speaker 1: you can take action yourself touch them. Um. But once

607
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: I started really practicing three commands per hour, things really

608
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: changed between me and Rosie. Wow. And I relaxed. I

609
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: relaxed because I was like, you're like, well, yeah, like

610
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: I don't have to do I don't have to do it,

611
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: and we don't yeh, we don't. She was fine, she

612
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: has not been injured. Yeah, she's fine. Like so, and

613
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: then does autonomy look like, hey, I'm gonna give you

614
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: two choice, Like he doesn't want to get dressed again,

615
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you two choices. Either I can get

616
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: you dressed or Daddy can get you dressed. So that

617
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: idea of choice and things, I think it came around

618
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: in the seventies. I think that was our idea of

619
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: like trying to give children autonomy. It's kind of bullshit.

620
00:34:54,160 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: Why because you're still very You're still deciding for them.

621
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: R I'm still just giving them two choices. That sucks.

622
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: So we're still in charge, in charge. That's so funny.

623
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: But you know, I think another thing it's done is

624
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: it's made us depend so much on choice, which is

625
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: also crazy. Kids do not get like, you know, in

626
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: the choices for food or activities or whatever. It's just like,

627
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: this is where we're eating, this is where we're going.

628
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: This is what you're wearing. Yeah, exactly, you have you

629
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: have tin shirts. Just get dressed like wow. Um. And

630
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: then the m is for so this is the bigger one,

631
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: like minimal interfering. Minimal interfering. So we kind of or

632
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: I kind of my knee jerk reaction is maximal interference,

633
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, like how can I jump in there and

634
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: shape the situation is quickly and sure as much as possible. Um.

635
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: But the idea is like this isn't free range, so

636
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: this isn't you know, you throw your hands up and

637
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 1: the kids just do whatever this is. I'm gonna step back,

638
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna watch, you know, make sure Rosie's okay, and

639
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: only really step in and help when she really needs it.

640
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: And then it's even a very gentle, unintrusive help. Um.

641
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: You know, it's learning to be kind of in the

642
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: background a little bit and let kids explore and learn

643
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: on their own, which again is something that the kids

644
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 1: have been doing for our hundreds of thousands of years

645
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: and only really being there when they really need it.

646
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: It's a way of collaborating with somebody. You're watching what

647
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 1: they're doing and building off of what they're doing, instead

648
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 1: of being in charge of it and managing it. Why

649
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 1: do you think this happened? Why did this happen? What happened?

650
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: So one of the big things that happened, and I

651
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit in the book, is

652
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: that the rise of individualism, I think is one thing.

653
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: But one of the big things that happened is I

654
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: don't know if you saw in the book, but this

655
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: whole idea of the Catholic Church's obsession with incest. Right, So,

656
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: five h years ago, the Catholic Church decided that it

657
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: wanted to prevent incests, so it would it prohibited marriages

658
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: between like cousins or which was reasonable, right, you don't

659
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: want to marry your cousin. But over time it like

660
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: extended out to like six cousins and in laws, and

661
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: which is you know, there's no you can marry your

662
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: six cousin. You're totally fine, right, um, But so it

663
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: started to big families exactly like cracked our big extended families.

664
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: You know, everywhere in the world people live in extended families,

665
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: intergenerational groups, neighbors, you know, live with each other. It's

666
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: much more communal um. But there's good evidence that this

667
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: the Catholic churches prohibitions on marriage UM led to the

668
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 1: arise of the nuclear family. And so now we think

669
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: of this like, you know, one a mom and a

670
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: dad with two kids and a dog's like the ideal family.

671
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 1: But it's in my no means traditional. It's very new

672
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: and in many days, like you said earlier, it's just

673
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: studying set exactly. I went to East Africa to we

674
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: were in Kenya and we were in a village where

675
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: it was multiple wives sort of a situation interest and

676
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: I was like, this looks amazing. I know, I know,

677
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 1: I was just wait what I was like, this is

678
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: so great. I was like, there are so many I mean,

679
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: you guys get what I'm saying, though, I mean, it

680
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: was just like I don't want to share my husband

681
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: with anyone. But I definitely I definitely was like, you know,

682
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: there were with a friend, so great, like all the

683
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 1: children were all the different women. Oh, but let's talk

684
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: about that one how did your UM spouse react to

685
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 1: your findings from around the world? And did uh did

686
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: he get easily on board? Like? How do I come

687
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 1: out of this podcast and then tell whoever you're raising

688
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: your children with, if you're lucky, lucky enough to even

689
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: have one other caregiver that's responsible for your child, whatever

690
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: that looks like in your household, how do we get

691
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: this person on board? Because I feel like it doesn't

692
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: work unless everyone's in you know. I really quickly realized, like,

693
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 1: Rosie is never going to want to do the dishes

694
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: or volunteer to help with the laundry. If my husband

695
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: and I we've been married almost twenty one years, oh

696
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: my gosh, if we argue over these things, and we do.

697
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: We did write like we were arguing over who's doing

698
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: the dishes, who's doing the laundry, like no, no, when

699
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: they're Rosie didn't want to do them, like we don't

700
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: want to do them right, And so I quickly realized, like, Okay,

701
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: I've got to teach him and me with him, the

702
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: same things that I'm teaching Rosie, Right. I got to

703
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: teach him to cooperate with me and work together with me. UM.

704
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 1: But I also realized that I couldn't force it right,

705
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: I had to use the e like. It had to

706
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: be this encourage, it had to be this like really

707
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: slowing sure, and you know it worked, It worked really well.

708
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:12,240
Speaker 1: I basically applied the same techniques with him. Amazing, it's rosy.

709
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: But so this is great. This could work for anybody. Guys, this,

710
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: these skills, they can work for anybody. Yeah, you know

711
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: a little teasing like, oh you're being a baby. Yeah, hilarious,

712
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: Like I just say, he did not like that one.

713
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: But you know, you know who is being unhelpful or

714
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 1: it's unhelpful. So I was very very um I would say,

715
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: slow and patient about it, because these are deeply rooted behaviors, right. Yeah.

716
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: And also I mean along same but different lines, like

717
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: when you went to these places, I'm assuming the men

718
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: were not involved, you know, that's a great question. So

719
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: it depends on the place. In a lot of hunter

720
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 1: gatherer groups, the men do like the child care, so

721
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: that there's some like support that it's very ancient that

722
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: men helping with child care is a very ancient thing. Um.

723
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: You know in other groups, you know, women did much more. Um,

724
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: but with the hot sabbe then the dads were incredible.

725
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: Rosie not even called one of the dad's super dad,

726
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: Like he was just so great with the babies. You know.

727
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: He'd hang out and hold the little toddler and the

728
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: babies for like hours by the fire and you know,

729
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: no entertainment, no, no, you know, anything, and they would

730
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 1: just sing and be together. And there wasn't like fifteen

731
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: lego sets in front of them, no, No. One time

732
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 1: we watched a dad and Tie and his his daughter

733
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 1: Bailey sit by the fire for two hours, like just

734
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: being together. How do you keep this up if Rosie's

735
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: playing with other kids? That that is a very interesting question. Um,

736
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: I used the methods on them. You do, Yeah, I

737
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: bet you do. Yeah, And you know. And it's the

738
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: good thing about the book is now the moms have

739
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 1: read it, so they like kind of know where I'm

740
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: you know, where weird all comes from and everything. But

741
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: it it's gotten easier because I think I found a

742
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: few parents that really have a similar philosophy and um,

743
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: similar goals, right exactly. I kind of weeded it out

744
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: like Okay, this mom is really too controlling and I

745
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: can't take it, you know, and it's just not gonna work. Um,

746
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: and that's made it a lot easier because now we're

747
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: kind of all on the same page. That's great, That's

748
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: really really great. Um. Would you say that staying calm

749
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: was the most difficult undoing for you? What what was

750
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: the what was the most difficult undoing and what's been

751
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: the toughest to put into practice? Yeah, decreasing my anger? Right.

752
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: So in the Inuit, moms really were the one and

753
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: dad's were really the ones that taught me this, like,

754
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: it's not about suppressing your anger, it's about generating less

755
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: anger and you in the first place. And so I

756
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: was trying to get Rosy stop biting me, and I

757
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: said something to this this mom, Lisa Appoli. I said,

758
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: you know, but she's pushing my buttons or manipulating me.

759
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,919
Speaker 1: And she literally like laughed at me. She's like, she's

760
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: not pushing your butN she's too you know, she's just

761
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: she's I'm just perceivingous. And what they told me it

762
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: was like children are irrational, illogical beings, and whatever they're

763
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: doing to you, it's not personal. It's just they're irrational,

764
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,439
Speaker 1: and it's your job to show them, through calmness and

765
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: maturity how to behave. UM. And so when she started

766
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: getting angry or you know, like she she hit me,

767
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 1: you know my husband start to get angry and be like, look,

768
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: she just doesn't know, she doesn't know yet. We have

769
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: to teach her. And so I by shifting kind of

770
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: how I think about the child instead of assuming like

771
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: a nefarious motivation. UM, I just say, you know, she

772
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: doesn't know, she doesn't know yet. I've got I've got

773
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: to show her. Um, and getting angry is just going

774
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 1: to show her how to get angry, right right right.

775
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: I still get angry, but I've learned to make it

776
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: really short and quick. Great, hey that's huge. Yeah, and

777
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: then just move on, you know, move on, move on,

778
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: just move on that. I mean, everything that's like really

779
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: tooving is a phase. Everything is a moment. Everything is

780
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: getting to another moment. Um. Aside from gifting every parent

781
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: a copy of your book, which I'm going to be

782
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 1: doing for all of my pregnant mamas in my life

783
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: right now, um, and just everyone, I mean, this was

784
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: so helpful. What have you found helps, um, fellow parents

785
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: get out of the Western mindset and open to implementing

786
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 1: these methods? How do I get someone on board? Yeah?

787
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think especially with the little ones, welcoming

788
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: them into the work of the house is huge. That's

789
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: really like the gateway drug into the book. Like getting them,

790
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: you know, involgue in the dishes and the cooking and

791
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: the laundry, taking them to the supermarket and teaching them

792
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: knowing it might not work like you like it at first,

793
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: but I've got to guide them and teach them. I've

794
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 1: heard from a lot of readers that this has transformed relationships. Um,

795
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: Like you know with strong will kids, they just want

796
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: to help. They're upset because they're unemployed in the home.

797
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: Want a job. That's so funny, that's hilarious. They're unimportant,

798
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 1: they're upset and they want the responsibility they do. They

799
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: want to be trusted, they want to contribute, they want

800
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 1: their responsibility. Um, what advice, like any last like any

801
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: last things that I did not hit on that you

802
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: can bestow on us from all of your genius studies

803
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: from around the world. I think a big thing for

804
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: me and Rosie was I just stopped arguing with her.

805
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: I really did, Like, there's no negotiation, there's no arguing.

806
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: If you look. This is well documented in the literature

807
00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: Western culture is the only culture that argues with children like, oh,

808
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: my god, what is wrong with us? And by us? Me?

809
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. And I also knew this study where

810
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: this woman documents in l A actually this conversation this

811
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: dad has with a kid about tying his shoes, and

812
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: it just you see it on the page. You're like,

813
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: this is ridiculous. Like, you know, if I feel a

814
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: power struggle or negotiation or anything that's like an argument,

815
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: I just like tap around the shoulder and say, you

816
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: know what, I'm not gonna argue with you, and I

817
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: walk away. I'm trying that tomorrow. My son wouldn't leave.

818
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 1: He's in he's just started preschool this week and really

819
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 1: really didn't want to leave because he's having so much fun.

820
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: And we had to leave quickly to get and be

821
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: here in time for this podcast. And I was like,

822
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: we have to leave, Yeah, right, never gonna happen. The

823
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: kid's gonna have a fucking tantrum, he's getting upset, blah

824
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: blah blah. So the teacher says, you know what I'll

825
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: be I'm gonna let you borrow one little car and

826
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 1: you'll bring it back to school tomorrow, you know, And

827
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: my son's like, no, how about three cars? And she's like,

828
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: all right, I'm gonna change my plan and we're going

829
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: to give you two cars. And he's like, no, no,

830
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: I want three cars and she's like no, I said one,

831
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: then you said three, and now we're landing it too.

832
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: And I'm like this is taking fifteen fucking minutes, like

833
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: and like why why we should have just said we're

834
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: fucking leaving. And I walk out the door. One or

835
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: none kids, That's what I said, one or none, kid,

836
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,280
Speaker 1: I'm out of here, like you can sleep outside at school,

837
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: like I'm out, Like I just yeah, I think it's

838
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: gotten I've gotten out of control with the negotiating and

839
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: the arguing. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Three and a half

840
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: year old, It's like, it's so ridiculous. You know, you asked,

841
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 1: like why are we doing it? And it's something we

842
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: didn't touch on much. But I think a problem is

843
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: who we're looking to it for advice is too narrow,

844
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: Like we've just decided that these are like particular experts,

845
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, with agrees or not degrees. And we've also

846
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: relied too much own science, which is really bad at

847
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: a changing behavior and helping us with behavioral issues. One

848
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: of the things that I hope the book does is say, oh, look,

849
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: we need to value a lot more voices in this

850
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 1: parenting world, and we need to we need to kind

851
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: of reconsider who we think is an expert, because our

852
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: advice comes from this incredibly narrow view and it's gotten

853
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: us in this weird often this weird tangents, in this

854
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: weird world of negotiating with a three year old over trumps.

855
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, and then I was like five minutes late,

856
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 1: and I was like, are you joking? Like that's what

857
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: I spent my afternoon doing. This is ridiculous, Michaelan, take

858
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: your time, Philip sentence. For me, parenthood is oh, that's

859
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: a that's hard. I know, I know. I want to

860
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 1: say like as hell on Earth, that's probably not pair.

861
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: Parenthood is like everything I'm gonna say is going to

862
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 1: sound cheesy. Hey, that's okay, that's okay, okay. I think

863
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: for me, parenthood is learning to back away, wait a

864
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: bit before interfering. It's about learning to have confidence in

865
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: other people, including little ones, you know, confident that they

866
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: know what they need and they're they're gonna go get it. Um,

867
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,959
Speaker 1: that's that. M It's been a mole interference. I really

868
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: parenthood for you is the team situation. I think parenthood togetherness, encouragement, autonomy,

869
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: and minimal interference. Yes, you nailed it. Which, by the way,

870
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 1: like I'm saying it out loud to you so that

871
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: I can repeat it to myself. You guys, team togetherness, encouragement, autonomy,

872
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 1: minimal interference, and we all know. Thank you to Michael

873
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: and her book and this podcast what team means. I

874
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: cannot thank you enough Michaeleen for coming on Katie's Crib.

875
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 1: This was so helpful and so informative and very eye opening.

876
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: It's honestly a relief. Yeah, I'm glad you say that

877
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: I felt that way. I have felt that way, like

878
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: like because I just think it would be such a

879
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 1: relief to go into parenting this afternoon and tomorrow just

880
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: like doing less and being remaining and remaining really calm

881
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:31,720
Speaker 1: and just moving on and when there's terrible bad behavior,

882
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: it's like I'm not going to tolerate that and we're done,

883
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: like I'm not walk away. Yeah. I think it's really

884
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: really excellent. Um, thank you so much for coming on

885
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib. Michaelean universe and everyone get Hunter, gather parent,

886
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: Thank you wonderful, helpful, enjoyable, and it feels like a massage.

887
00:50:55,160 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: It's like the stress level just comes down. Thank you

888
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: so much. Thank you guys so much for listening to

889
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib. I hope you enjoyed the episode with Michaeleen.

890
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: Please share, subscribe, tell your friends about it, and also

891
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. Send me an email

892
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: at Katie's Crib at Shawnda land dot com. Katie's Crib

893
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with

894
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from shann Land Audio,

895
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

896
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. You never know, I'm tell

897
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: you track mean