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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Eerie leaked jail videos of Brian Coburger with bright red

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Speaker 2: hands red red compared to the rest of his arm

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Speaker 2: bright red hands as American psycho type shirtless selfies emerged

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Speaker 2: on his phone. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: I want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: I think it was an insult.

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Speaker 3: Don't ever try to convince yourself you mattered just because

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Speaker 3: someone finally said your name out loud.

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Speaker 4: In Cels hate women because they can't get them, because

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Speaker 4: they got the girl, not him.

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Speaker 3: If you hadn't attached them in their sleep in the

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Speaker 3: middle of the night like a pedophile, Kaylie would have

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Speaker 3: kicked yours.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, incredibly seedy, Lee, envious and jealous.

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Speaker 2: Those last words are from Keilli Gonsolvus's sister speaking at sentencing.

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Speaker 1: You know, drop the my girl. You are awesome.

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Speaker 2: But to Tonight's stunning reveal, these American psychotype shirtless selfies

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Speaker 2: and so much more emerging on Brian Coburger's phone. This

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Speaker 2: as we learn when he leaves the murder scene, and

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Speaker 2: believe it or not, there's still people fighting online saying

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Speaker 2: he's innocent and he was framed who himself he pled guilty.

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Speaker 2: It's emerging now that as he's leaving this horrific.

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Speaker 1: Crime scene, who does he call mommy? That's freaky.

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Speaker 2: But first I've got to get to this leaked sell

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Speaker 2: video joining me in All Star Pound to make sins

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Speaker 2: of what we're learning.

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Speaker 1: Let's look at it, everybody.

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Speaker 2: Let's look at the video together and straight out to

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Speaker 2: any at least joining us creator CEO of tent to Life, Annie,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Let's look at the Oh,

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Speaker 2: look at the hands. We're looking at it right now.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you can see it on your monitor.

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Speaker 2: And here he is obsessive, obsessively cleaning the cracks and

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Speaker 2: the little line that goes around the bottom of your shoe.

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Speaker 2: What he got it in muddy behind bars? No, but

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Speaker 2: he's recleaning and re cleaning his shoes and looking around awkwardly,

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Speaker 2: looks very much. You know, this is telling me something else.

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Speaker 2: It's telling me that the way he looked and sentencing

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Speaker 2: and the way he looked in court is how he

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Speaker 2: really looks, kind of a blank, dead stare.

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Speaker 1: Okay, first of all, I want.

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Speaker 2: To analyze everything I can glean from this leaked video,

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Speaker 2: and who leaked it is anybody's guests, you know, Jill's

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Speaker 2: are falling over themselves to say it's not ours, it's

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Speaker 2: not ours, Hey, it's somebody's straight out to any at

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Speaker 2: least any.

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Speaker 1: What do you observe in the video?

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Speaker 5: I think it's so interesting because of course everybody is

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Speaker 5: glued to this trying to analyze it, because it's really

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Speaker 5: the first movements we have seen it for three years

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Speaker 5: of him, and we know we've heard that he has OCD.

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Speaker 5: So he's carefully cleaning the shoe. But I think what

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Speaker 5: strikes everybody as odd is when he's done cleaning it,

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Speaker 5: he puts that tissue up on top of the cage

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Speaker 5: and he just stares there, very still, very intently, looking

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Speaker 5: above the monitor that's in that cage, and almost looks

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Speaker 5: as though he's just thinking or evaluating it. And it's

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Speaker 5: really eerie.

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Speaker 1: I'm taking a look at him now. Now.

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Speaker 2: What was your comment regarding how he would look up

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Speaker 2: at the shelf.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, when he puts it up, you can see a

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Speaker 5: little bit if you look at his eyes, he's looking

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Speaker 5: directly above whatever's inside that cage, whether it's a TV screen,

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Speaker 5: some sort of maybe perhaps a tablet. I don't think

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Speaker 5: it's tablet though, I don't think he has.

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Speaker 1: Access to that.

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Speaker 5: And he's almost staring right above it, just looking at it.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if it's because he's angry at not

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Speaker 5: throwing it away because he doesn't want to contaminate the

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Speaker 5: sel I don't know why he wouldn't throw it away.

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Speaker 5: There's a trash can right there, but it just seems

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Speaker 5: very bizarre that he would use it to clean so intently.

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Speaker 6: Put it in.

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Speaker 1: Any elise any ELISEO.

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Speaker 2: Hold on, Annie, he can put trash in the trash can.

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Speaker 1: It would make the trash can dirty.

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Speaker 2: You're right, you remember, hold on, I got to throw

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Speaker 2: something at you. Hold on just a moment, but I'm

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Speaker 2: going to go very quickly to Chris McDonough joining me.

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Speaker 2: Has worked over three hundred homicide cases. I found him

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Speaker 2: on YouTube on his show The interview Room, former homicide detective.

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Speaker 2: Remember when he was arrested at his parents' place near

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Speaker 2: the Poconas, Remember that, and he was Annie, You've got

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Speaker 2: to remember this. And he was wearing plastic gloves at

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Speaker 2: like three o'clock in the morning, like a surgeon. And

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Speaker 2: we're wearing boxer shorts or shorts, and he was taking

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Speaker 2: trash and putting in plastic bags before the plastic bags

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Speaker 2: would be put into the trash, and then putting that

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Speaker 2: trash in the neighbors trash ban. So this guy is

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Speaker 2: not going to just throw something in the trash can,

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Speaker 2: especially something that might be dirty where he had re

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Speaker 2: cleaned his shoes behind bars.

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Speaker 7: Nancy, If we take a look at this video, there's

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Speaker 7: a couple of things that are pretty obvious here. Number

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Speaker 7: one is it's got to be a medical facility in

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Speaker 7: terms of a cell withinside of the jail or wherever

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Speaker 7: this is from, because there are two windows on the wall.

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Speaker 7: There's one on the door, if you'll notice, and then

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Speaker 7: there's one on the wall, and then inside of the

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Speaker 7: trash can there's a plastic bag and on the wall

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Speaker 7: there's a cord hanging down, and then of course it's

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Speaker 7: a medical bed and then there's railings around the toilet.

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Speaker 7: That means one of two things. A's in observation or

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Speaker 7: B they signed off that he's not a threat to

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Speaker 7: himself because that bag and that cord would not be

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Speaker 7: in that room absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Plus did you see the bedspread? I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you said that, I didn't hear you say. The bedspread

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Speaker 2: doesn't look like a uniform bedspread that you would see

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Speaker 2: in a cell, also in.

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Speaker 1: A regular cell.

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Speaker 2: I mean you remember the disarray in Jeffrey Epstein's cell,

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Speaker 2: which is totally totally not sop here. There's too much

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Speaker 2: stuff in a room if he was on suicide Watch exactly.

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Speaker 7: And that bed is a medical bed.

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Speaker 1: You can see it.

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Speaker 7: I mean even at the top. It's not the railing

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Speaker 7: on it. Still, so I took her observation here, and

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Speaker 7: whoever took this.

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Speaker 2: Show she did with styrofoam cups in his room?

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, why what is he getting hot coco?

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Speaker 2: See those styrofham cups up there on the shelf.

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Speaker 1: He's not supposed to have that in his room. Where

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Speaker 1: is this place?

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Speaker 2: No, of course, this video is yett to be verified

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Speaker 2: by authorities, and the jails are falling all over themselves saying, hey,

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Speaker 2: we didn't leak it. Somebody leaked it, okay. Why is

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Speaker 2: he having hot cocoa behind bars? Why does he hat

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Speaker 2: starfham cups in there?

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Speaker 7: Well, that tells us he said two meals because he

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Speaker 7: comes with a drink and so he's he's saving those

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Speaker 7: cups for something and the staff is letting them have it.

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Speaker 7: To your point, So yeah, this is a medical situation.

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Speaker 7: I think before they put him into isolation, did.

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Speaker 1: Somebody bring you hot chocolate in bed? Because nobody brings

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Speaker 1: me hot chocolate? Why is he getting his How can he?

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Speaker 1: How is he allowed to keep all that in his room?

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Speaker 2: Is totally completely against the ordnance behind bars only I

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Speaker 2: don't care. But the thing is, he could do something

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Speaker 2: with all of those items, like it's claimed Epstein did.

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Speaker 2: He allegedly hung himself. Okay, that's bs. But that said,

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Speaker 2: that's why inmates are not allowed to have all the

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Speaker 2: accoutrement with them behind bars. So is he getting his

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Speaker 2: food in that room? He never leaves to even eat?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, and that's why there are three levels

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Speaker 7: of observation.

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Speaker 8: Right.

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Speaker 7: You got the two windows of one on the door,

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Speaker 7: one on the wall, and of course the video observation.

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Speaker 7: You've got eyes on this guy at all times, and

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Speaker 7: maybe this is part of the where docs are looking

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Speaker 7: at him going okay, he's not doing that, doing that

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Speaker 7: and that you know, that's out of my pay grade. Right,

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Speaker 7: But at the same time, maybe this is part of

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Speaker 7: what are we where are we going to put this guy?

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Speaker 7: And how off is she just yet?

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Speaker 2: Well, another issue is some of the shoes look like

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Speaker 2: they may have shoelaces.

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Speaker 1: That's totally disallowed.

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Speaker 2: You put two shoelaces together and suddenly you've got the

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Speaker 2: means when you can strangle yourself or somebody else.

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Speaker 1: Macdona.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, no, you're one hundred percent right, Nancy. And

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Speaker 7: that's that's why we got to take a fifty to

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Speaker 7: fifty looking at this thing and saying, Okay, could this

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Speaker 7: be AI generated and or if it is belonging to

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Speaker 7: the facility. Those are very legitimate questions that you just

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Speaker 7: are statements that you just made. He shouldn't have those situations.

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Speaker 2: I would not have imagined he would be in a

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Speaker 2: sale of this nature.

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Speaker 1: You know, joining me right now.

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Speaker 2: Karen Start, forensic psychologists, renowned TV radio trauma expert and

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Speaker 2: consultant at Karenstark dot com. Karen, what are you making

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Speaker 2: of what we are seeing?

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Speaker 6: So, Nancy, what we see is somebody who's very, very

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Speaker 6: anxious and think about who he is. He's a person

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Speaker 6: who needs to be isolated. He doesn't have contacts in

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Speaker 6: his phone, only eighteen He keeps himself to except for

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Speaker 6: his family dependency. He's on his own. And what I'm

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Speaker 6: looking at is somebody who's very anxious. We know about

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Speaker 6: the staring, we know about the fact that he has

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Speaker 6: that looking a eyes, and he's a killer and a monster,

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Speaker 6: but here he is just looking ahead, looking at his shoes,

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Speaker 6: very obsessive, compulsive, and I feel like he's extremely anxious

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Speaker 6: because he's being observed and he's not used to anything

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Speaker 6: like that. He keeps to himself. Also, the red, the

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Speaker 6: fact that his hands are red. It's as though you

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Speaker 6: know he's calling out, I'm in distress. I don't know

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Speaker 6: what that red is. If he cut himself and he

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Speaker 6: was bleeding, but he's having a really difficult time. Karen

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Speaker 6: being the air.

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Speaker 2: The red hands say, well, how in the world do

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Speaker 2: having really red hands equal crying out?

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Speaker 1: I'm in distress.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just a trial lawyer, but I don't

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Speaker 2: understand what you just said.

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Speaker 6: Well, to me, it's just it doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 6: It's very spooky, like why are his hands red and

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Speaker 6: he knows.

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Speaker 1: He's being abl I think I've got a pretty.

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Speaker 2: Good idea because he washes them obsessively. As we have

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Speaker 2: discussed in previous programs. He washes his hands to the

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Speaker 2: point his hands are absolutely cracking open and red.

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Speaker 1: That's why his hands are red.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so again, I'm just a trial lawyer, but as

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Speaker 2: a psychoanalyst, what does that tell you?

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Speaker 6: Well, that tells me he's obsessive compulsive. That's what he does,

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Speaker 6: just the way you see him cleaning his shoes. Nancy,

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Speaker 6: that's exactly what he's doing with his hands. He's doing

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Speaker 6: it over and over again, and that's how he copes

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Speaker 6: with his anxiety. He gets fixated on things. And this

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Speaker 6: is such a great example of somebody who's fixating on

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Speaker 6: a shoe and then staring at that.

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Speaker 1: Shelf whatever is there.

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Speaker 6: And if in fact that's why his hands are red,

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Speaker 6: he just washes them. As you said, over and over

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Speaker 6: and over.

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Speaker 2: Crime Stores with Nancy Gray to any Elise joining us,

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Speaker 2: what's the word on where this.

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Speaker 1: Video came from?

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Speaker 2: Is it like in the Shawn Combs Cassi e Venturia

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Speaker 2: beatdown video where someone is videoing a screen because it

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Speaker 2: appears I don't understand it appears out of the video.

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Speaker 2: You can see that storage shelf.

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Speaker 5: Yes, you can also see at the very start of

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Speaker 5: the video the corner of what looks to be a

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Speaker 5: computer monitor. So I believe that it's somebody who works

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Speaker 5: inside this facility who maybe wanted to show off to

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Speaker 5: their friends or family and say, look who's in our

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Speaker 5: facility who I'm watching? And they're videoing the actual monitor

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Speaker 5: of the recording inside the cell, and then they share

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Speaker 5: it with one person. That of course gets shared, ends

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Speaker 5: up all over the internet and goes viral.

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Speaker 4: See those droplets of blood right there, do you know

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Speaker 4: what that means? He was standing there with a knife

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Speaker 4: in his hand.

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Speaker 7: That is our cur spray where Ethan's throat was cut,

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Speaker 7: and every heartbeat create that pattern of blood.

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Speaker 4: The brutality here that has been exacted on these kids

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Speaker 4: is unimaginable.

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Speaker 1: It's unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: In the newly emerged jail house video linked by investigation pending,

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Speaker 2: the video is infuriating victims' rights advocates who think about

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Speaker 2: the brutality and how these four beautiful young students were murdered.

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Speaker 2: And now he has what a penhouse sweet at the jail,

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Speaker 2: He's got a huge bed by jail house standards as

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Speaker 2: opposed to a bunk. He has look at this plenty

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Speaker 2: of walking around room, shelfs multiple pairs of shoes.

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Speaker 1: He's he's doing fine.

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Speaker 2: The lead video has yet to be verified by authority,

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Speaker 2: but now his selfies, his freaky American psychotype selfies, are emerging.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 9: Besides the chilling selfie he took giving the thumbs up

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Speaker 9: hours after murdering four university students, Coburger's cell phone is

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Speaker 9: filled with creepy selfies posing shirtless and flexing his muscles.

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Speaker 9: Had Coburger gone to trial, experts from Celebright would have

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Speaker 9: testified about Coburger's phone and how he attempted to hide

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Speaker 9: his movements by powering off his phone with one hundred

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Speaker 9: percent battery driving to and from the crime scene, and

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Speaker 9: how his cell phone use would have taken down his alibi,

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Speaker 9: claiming he was driving around in the dark looking at stars.

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Speaker 9: Celebright expert Heather Barnhart says, if you're stargazing and taking

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Speaker 9: pictures of the sky, your phone needs to.

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Speaker 1: Be on and joining us right now. A very special guest.

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Speaker 2: Heather Barnhardt Lee, digital forensic investigator in the Brian Coburger case,

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Speaker 2: SAMs Institute fellow that System Administrative Audit, Network and Security

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Speaker 2: Senior director of forensic research celebrit which we learned way

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Speaker 2: too much about during the Alexan Marlaud double murder case.

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Speaker 2: She is also co author of Practical Mobile Forensics. Heather,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for being with us. Tell us

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Speaker 2: what you meant by that statement.

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Speaker 1: He had so many selfies on this device. Brian Cooberger

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Speaker 1: loved himself.

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Speaker 10: There was a level of vanity and even if you

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Speaker 10: look at that image right.

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Speaker 1: There, the scrubbing of his knuckles, the redness in his

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Speaker 1: hands in the cell, he was obsessive.

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Speaker 10: He didn't like to be dirty, but he loved to

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Speaker 10: look at himself. We found cashed YouTube images of Christian

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Speaker 10: Bale as American psycho, standing in front of.

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Speaker 1: A mirror with blood spattered on his face.

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Speaker 10: And as you can see in many of these selfies,

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Speaker 10: he has that same look. He has that same dead

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Speaker 10: stare in almost this vain appreciation who he is and

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Speaker 10: what he thinks he is.

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Speaker 1: What else did you observe on Kyberger's phone? Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: So he was obsessed with serial killers.

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Speaker 10: He searched for non consensual porn acts.

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Speaker 1: He also was really paranoid.

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Speaker 10: In December, a few days before his arrests, he was

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Speaker 10: searching for ways to detail his car, possibly get rid

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Speaker 10: of his car.

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Speaker 1: So we know when you're searching for.

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Speaker 10: Psychopath paranoia, and I believe I heard he didn't want

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Speaker 10: to be called a psychopath. He knows he is, and

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Speaker 10: he was searching for that. He was extremely paranoid, but

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Speaker 10: also obsessed with just reading the behaviors and lifestyles of

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Speaker 10: serial killers.

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Speaker 2: When you say he would read about the lifestyles of

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Speaker 2: serial killers, what do you mean?

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Speaker 1: What was he looking up? On Christmas night? Right before

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Speaker 1: It's to the twenty six.

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Speaker 10: Brian went to serial killer timelines on Android and he

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Speaker 10: clicked on link after link two times for Danny Rowling,

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Speaker 10: Dennis Raider, Ted Bundy, and so many more. But what

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Speaker 10: he was reading where these serial killers were born, what

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Speaker 10: type of families they came from, what their crime was,

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Speaker 10: how they got called, did they ever hurt any pets?

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Speaker 10: It was extremely creepy. And think about the timeline. It's

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Speaker 10: Christmas night.

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Speaker 1: Most people aren't going to read about serial killers.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was looking at your analysis, Heather Barnhart,

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Speaker 2: and for hours he looked up Betty Lou Beats, Randy Kraft,

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Speaker 2: William Lee, Danny Rowling, Jewel Rifkin, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy,

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Speaker 2: so many others, Rodney el Kowa, Robert Hanson, Gary Ridgeway. Wow,

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Speaker 2: it just Ed Kemper, one of the worst Dennis Raider

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Speaker 2: aka buying torture kill BTK. And that is on is

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Speaker 2: it Christmas night or Christmas Eve night?

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Speaker 10: It's on Christmas Night into the hours of the twenty

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Speaker 10: sixth of December.

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Speaker 2: And you said he had a huge cash of American

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Speaker 2: Psycho saved.

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Speaker 1: What they were they steals? Did he actually download the movie?

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Speaker 10: They were still shots from YouTube, So it's almost as

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Speaker 10: if he either captured it or his android captured it

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Speaker 10: on his behalf as he was watching. He watched Ed

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Speaker 10: Kemper mannerisms on YouTube. So different things that just don't

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Speaker 10: make sense, even if your criminology major do not make sense.

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Speaker 2: Now that's interesting that you said that, because I imagine

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Speaker 2: that the defense would be, well, he's a criminology student,

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Speaker 2: and that's why he's doing this. But you say, and

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Speaker 2: I agree that it doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 1: I have my own reasons, such as he's doing.

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Speaker 2: It on Christmas Night number one, but studying it and

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Speaker 2: getting screen grabs of Christian Bale without a shirt on bail.

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Speaker 1: That's not real. Okay, Christian Bale is not a serial killer.

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Speaker 1: But yet his.

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Speaker 2: Getting these shirtless selfies type shots of bail and saving

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Speaker 2: them and then re enacting them. So that has nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with his criminology degree.

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Speaker 1: But why do you say that, Heather.

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Speaker 10: I majored in forensic science. I majored in bloodstain pattern analysis.

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Speaker 10: You would get research projects. Your research wasn't to research

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Speaker 10: every single one. And repeatedly he visited Danny Rowling twice

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Speaker 10: on Christmas night and once earlier in November, so it

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Speaker 10: was repetitive reading. Almost to me, it felt like bedtime reading,

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Speaker 10: something that would relax him because he was home with

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Speaker 10: mother and father, so he didn't need them to put

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Speaker 10: him to sleep. Instead, he leaned into something like this.

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Speaker 1: Heather, do not move a hair? Joining me now?

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Speaker 2: Is Josh Colesrude, renowned criminal defense attorney, former assistant US attorney,

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Speaker 2: founder of coles Rude Law Offices. Josh, do your clients

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Speaker 2: ever totally scape you out?

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Speaker 8: Yes, of course, But you know I try to remain

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Speaker 8: objective throughout anything. I mean, when I was a prosecutor,

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Speaker 8: you know, we had situations that are very similar to

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Speaker 8: this case. As well, and you know, the most important

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Speaker 8: thing is to remain objective. And when looking at the

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Speaker 8: jail video in particular, the first thing that I think

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Speaker 8: about is that if this video is real, that it's

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Speaker 8: a betrayal of prison security. And if it's not real,

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Speaker 8: or then.

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Speaker 2: You're telling me Brian Coberger had his privacy violated, that's

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Speaker 2: your worry.

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Speaker 1: He's taking screen.

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Speaker 2: Grabs of Christian Bale, who plays American Psycho, and storing them.

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Speaker 2: He's obsessively reading bedtime stories about serial killers on Christmas Night.

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Speaker 2: And the first thing that comes out of your defense

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Speaker 2: attorney mouth is his rights have been violated because somebody's

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Speaker 2: peaked on him as he's shining his shoes.

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Speaker 1: Again, do you said that right?

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Speaker 8: So what's concerning for me is that number one, the

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Speaker 8: victims of this crime, their families don't want to keep

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Speaker 8: seeing Brian Coberger on TV being analyzed and being utalized

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Speaker 8: into a cult like figure. I mean, people aren't watching

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Speaker 8: this to learn, They're watching it to peak at a

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Speaker 8: monster in a cage, and that says more about us

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Speaker 8: than really then it says him.

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Speaker 2: Okay, first you said his rights were violated, and when

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Speaker 2: I got three inches up your tail pot. You went, oh, erase, erase,

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Speaker 2: Jurassic erase. What I meant to say is that I'm

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Speaker 2: all about the victims' families and I don't want them

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Speaker 2: to have to look at Coburger again. So that's your

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Speaker 2: backup argument. I'm asking you about creepy clients. At first,

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Speaker 2: you say Coleburger's rights have been violated because I can

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Speaker 2: watch them in a cell. Now you're saying what you

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Speaker 2: meant to say was you were trying to defend the victims.

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Speaker 8: There are many reasons why this video is disturbing, and

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Speaker 8: it's not just for those two reasons. There's also the

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Speaker 8: idea that even inmates have a right to privacy, and

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Speaker 8: if you just give that up and you strip that away,

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Speaker 8: then we erode the foundation of what our entire system

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Speaker 8: is based on, which is the rule of law, that

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Speaker 8: it's the justice is blind, that we apply the rules

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Speaker 8: equally to everyone. And that's what we're trying to say here.

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Speaker 8: This obsession with seeing Coburger behind bars, it really does

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Speaker 8: risk quadruple murder into somebody that's a cult like figure

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Speaker 8: instead of where he belongs, which is forgotten.

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Speaker 2: Well, maybe that's your interpretation Cole's rude thing, in my mind,

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Speaker 2: is turning him into a cult like figure to be

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Speaker 2: worshiped and admired again. The video has yet to be

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Speaker 2: verified by authorities. A couple of jails are going, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's not us. But as you heard earlier, Chris mcdonoughh

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Speaker 2: was stating, that's not a typical jail cell.

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Speaker 1: This looks like it's on a MED unit.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think it's going to be a typical

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Speaker 2: cell in any of two jailhouses I can think of.

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Speaker 1: So I went to Josh Cole rude to.

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Speaker 2: Ask him would he be schemed out basically by a

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Speaker 2: client who is for enjoyment bedtime reading about all these

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Speaker 2: serial killers and speaking of Ed Kemper as I recall

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Speaker 2: and correct me if I'm wrong, I've got a feeling

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Speaker 2: Heather Barnhart might know the answer to this.

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Speaker 1: His first victim was his own grandmother.

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Speaker 2: He shot her with a rifle and he said, I

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Speaker 2: wanted to see what it feels like to shoot up grandma,

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Speaker 2: words to that effect. So he does have that in

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Speaker 2: simpatico with Brian Coberger, because I believe he committed the

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Speaker 2: merger to quote see what.

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Speaker 1: It felt like.

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Speaker 2: See him reading about Ed Kemper on Christmas Night. That

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Speaker 2: scheves me out totally. And I have been with a

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Speaker 2: lot of killers. I've interviewed them, I've prosecuted them, I've

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Speaker 2: investigated them, I have covered them. I've studied them right

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Speaker 2: down to their DNA. And I got to tell you something, Heather,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what Cole's root is talking about.

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Speaker 1: Now. He's a victim's rights advocate.

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Speaker 2: He is a criminal defense attorney, and a really good

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Speaker 2: one at that. Heather Kemper, Christmas night, ten o'clock. What

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Speaker 2: with his pj's tucked into is now? I put some

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Speaker 2: guys will tuck the shirt into the pants and then

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Speaker 2: the pants get tucked into the socks.

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Speaker 1: I could just totally see that happening.

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Speaker 2: And reading about Kemper, whose first victim with his grandma

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Speaker 2: is own grandma.

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Speaker 10: You know when you say grandma, and the way Brian

439
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 10: saved mother and father and even texted where is father?

440
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 10: I won't father answer. It's too many similar behaviors.

441
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: Okay, before you start talking about him, going father, why

442
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 2: want mother pick up the phone?

443
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: That's a whole other can of worms. Can I get?

444
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: You know? I got to get this bus to steer

445
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: it back in the middle of the road.

446
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: I'm talking about Coburger freakily screen grabbing Christian Bale and

447
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 2: then making replica shirtless Selfie's flexing his muscles. Tell me

448
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 2: about the images ether we found.

449
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: So my husband worked this case with me, so it

450
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: was so crazy.

451
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 10: Imagine our conversations at home, but pictures not only just

452
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 10: forward in the mirror, but.

453
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: From behind, so he would get the.

454
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 10: Mirror reflection back while he was flexing.

455
00:25:50,280 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 11: A location of your emergency? Of the emergency? What is

456
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 11: the rest of the address?

457
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 6: Oh roads?

458
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 11: Okay? And there's a a house for and apartment. It's

459
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 11: a house. Can you repeat theadress to make sure that

460
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 11: I have it right.

461
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 6: I'll talk to you guys were we live at the lights,

462
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 6: so we're next to them.

463
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 11: I need someone to repeat the address for raification.

464
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: The address one one to two King Roads.

465
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 12: His searches were not limited to violent porn. Coberger's laptop

466
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 12: searches reveal his obsession with serial killers, co ed killers,

467
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 12: home invasions, burglaries, and psychopaths, and his obsession with the

468
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 12: Gainesville Ripper Danny Rowling. Rolling broke into the homes of

469
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 12: University of Florida students at night, murdering five, four female

470
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 12: and one male, raping the young women, decapitating one of

471
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 12: them and posing her head on the mantle in her home.

472
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 12: Rolling's murder weapon, just like Coburger A Kay barn Coburger

473
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 12: even downloaded a PDF about Rolling on his phone and

474
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 12: watched a YouTube video about a k bar knife, and.

475
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 2: We wonder where Coburger got his inspiration. Straight back out

476
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 2: to Heather Barnhart, joining US lead digital forensic investigator in

477
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 2: the Brian Coburger case, Heather, the obsession with serial killers

478
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 2: goes much deeper than we were originally led to believe,

479
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: and I feel confident if this case had been taken

480
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: to a jury, the jury would agree with everything that

481
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: you are saying.

482
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: Now.

483
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 2: The shirtless selfies you were describing that earlier, and taken

484
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 2: by Coburger at various angles that are eerily similar to

485
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 2: screen grabs he had from American Psycho the serial killer,

486
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: could you describe them, please, Heather.

487
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 13: Sure, he would take a sure off and stand in

488
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 13: his bathroom mirror and flex his muscles, but kate photos

489
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 13: of himself from multiple angles, so head on from behind

490
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 13: profile view and it was eerily similar to Christian Bale

491
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 13: in American Psycho, which was also present on his phone.

492
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: Guys, you're saying some of the shots we have a

493
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: Coburger and his selfies. Heather, what you are telling us

494
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: is far more extensive than what we have been told

495
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 2: about his online searches. I'm curious as to what you

496
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: learned about searches as it pertains to attacking women when

497
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: they are passed out, drunk and some type of a stupor.

498
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: What did you learn?

499
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 13: Everything he searched for was non consensual sex acts, so

500
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 13: think rape, sleeping, passed out, voyeurism. Nothing was what we

501
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 13: would tip in digital forensics called normal porn searches.

502
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 2: We also learn of Ciberger's attempt to erase everything digitally.

503
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 12: Listen three days after the murders, Coburger runs an eraser

504
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 12: software on his laptop which is used to wipe data

505
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 12: from the hard drive. The Celebrate team uncovers digital evidence

506
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 12: even after Coburger's best effort to scrub anything incriminating from

507
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 12: his laptop and cell phone. They even discovered a pattern

508
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 12: where Coberger went to extreme lengths to try to delete

509
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 12: and hide his digital footprint using VPNs incognito modes and

510
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 12: clearing his browsing history.

511
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 13: Heather, what does that mean he intended to commit this murder,

512
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 13: all these murders. He purposely powered down his own He

513
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 13: purposely cleaned up data from the device. And what's interesting

514
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 13: is the gap is about a month before the murders

515
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 13: even happened. So what was on that computer that he

516
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 13: needed to hide? That's what always drives me insane with

517
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 13: this investigation.

518
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: What exactly is incognito?

519
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 13: Incognitom mode is something specific to the Chrome browser that

520
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 13: lets you remain anonymous. It's not supposed to track any

521
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 13: of your browser history. However, just like leading the sheet

522
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 13: behind at the crime scene, he made mistakes. He downloaded

523
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 13: if you bookmark and autofill, so as you're typing things

524
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 13: that you want to see when you're in private browsing

525
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 13: or incognito, autofil remembers it because our computers and phones

526
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 13: want to please us. They know that we are lazy

527
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 13: humans that just want repetitive nature, So it remembers so

528
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 13: it can remind you.

529
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: Crime stores. With Nancy Grace.

530
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 2: Joining us, Annie Elise, creator and CEO of Tend to

531
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: Life and Star Off Seriously, I hit podcasts Annie again,

532
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. It's my understanding that

533
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: immediately after the murders, as soon as he turned his

534
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: cellphone back on, he called his mother, explain what you know.

535
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 5: So they spoke on and off throughout the entire day,

536
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 5: and one of those conversations was around ninety minutes long, which,

537
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 5: of course, in hindsight, I would be very curious to

538
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 5: know what those conversations looked like. But it's interesting we

539
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 5: have heard that he is very socially isolated, that Brian

540
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 5: has struggled to form personal pose connections with peers, with partners.

541
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 5: So through my case coverage and other cases, what I've

542
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 5: learned from that is that people who are like often

543
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 5: heavily lean on a parent, usually the mother too. They

544
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 5: want that emotional regulation, they want to feel grounded. So

545
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 5: I think that it makes sense that after the murders

546
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 5: he was trying to find his mom when he couldn't

547
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 5: get a hold of her, That's when he texts his

548
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 5: dad saying father, why did mother not respond? And I

549
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 5: think him calling her repeatedly and just wanting to have

550
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 5: those conversations with her, with her throughout the day could

551
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 5: reflect his need reassurance for feeling grounded, especially if he

552
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 5: was stressed and reeling from these murders.

553
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: Heyler Barnhart with US lead digital forensics investigator in the

554
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger case.

555
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: Is that true his long, long.

556
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: Extended conversations with his mother, including immediately after the murders.

557
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 13: It's true, and this is typical behavior for Brian Colberger.

558
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 13: He every single morning, as early as five am his

559
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 13: time up until he would finally go to sleep at night,

560
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 13: constantly reaching out to mother and father.

561
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 2: Okay, joining me, Karen starked roround forensic psychologist, TV radio

562
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: trauma expert.

563
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: What does it mean, Karen well A means.

564
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 6: He never let go of his attachment to his parents, Nancy.

565
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 6: He really didn't have friends, and he was overly dependent

566
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 6: on them, so they were everything to him. When he's anxious,

567
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 6: when something happens, he's calling them and only them, and

568
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 6: at his age, you never see that development. That's because

569
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 6: that's not somebody who's a grown up.

570
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: You know too, Doctor Prea benergy In joining US board

571
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 2: certified forensic pathologist at Anchor Forensics Pathology, Doctor Priya, I'm

572
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 2: trying to figure out because I think there's a tie

573
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: in here. What is your analysis of why his hands

574
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 2: are so bright Neon red in that late jailhouse video.

575
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 14: Oh yes, I think it's uh, you know, the soap's

576
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 14: not the nicest, probably right, And I think that it's

577
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 14: a harsh soap and it is repetitive use. You know,

578
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 14: he's getting basically, he's scrubbing past the surface with irritation.

579
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 14: And I think you can see the repetitive nature of

580
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 14: everything he does and he just can't get clean enough.

581
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 14: And his anxiety is probably playing into it too that

582
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 14: you know, his circumstances are less.

583
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 6: Than ideal for him and he just can't get.

584
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 13: Up control over it. And he seems to be like

585
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 13: a control obsessive control freak, if you will.

586
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,919
Speaker 14: And that's really you know, the cycle that he's trying

587
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 14: to break, but he can't.

588
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 13: And I think it's using the same selp and scrubbing

589
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 13: nature that's really irritating things.

590
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: So, Karen Stark, how does the obsessive hand washing fit

591
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: in with the mommy complex?

592
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 6: Got He's got a lot of problems, Matthew. These are

593
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 6: all psychologtical issues. He's obsessive composent, that's anxiety. So he

594
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 6: spends his time not socially but washing his hands repeatedly

595
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 6: doing things like cleaning the shoes that we saw, and

596
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 6: his obsession with his mom. As you think about it,

597
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 6: it's very eerie because you do not find that when

598
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 6: someone is older. So he's not having any kind of

599
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 6: a social life. He's isolated, he wants to be isolated,

600
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 6: and it's all about his action to his parents. Actually,

601
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 6: I'm surprised that he went off to school because he

602
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 6: can't connect with other people.

603
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 12: Returning to his apartment after killing four people, Ryan Coberger

604
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 12: calls his mother. He then decides to return to the

605
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 12: scene of the crimes around nine am and has two

606
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 12: conversations with his mother around this time. Forensic analysis of

607
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 12: his phone reveals Coberger had no text with friends or

608
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 12: anyone outside his family other than a single group chat.

609
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 12: He's also extremely awkward and texting with his parents, calling

610
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 12: them mother and father. He likes communicating with his mother

611
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 12: more than his father, and even texted saying why did

612
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 12: mother not respond? Why is she not answering the phone?

613
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: Joining us an all star panel first too.

614
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: Josh Coles Rude, veteran trial lawyer, joining us out of Phoenix.

615
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: I find all of the evidence we're learning now to

616
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: be very probe to specifically as it relates to clearly

617
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: planning the four murders far in advance.

618
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: There's detail, planning, a forethought. That's true.

619
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 8: However, a prosecutor can lose a case in a variety

620
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,280
Speaker 8: of ways that have nothing to do with a defendant's guilt.

621
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 8: So in this case, the FBI used a controversial technique

622
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 8: in order to identify who Brian Koberg is or was,

623
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 8: and that's the investigative genetic genealogy technique where they would

624
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 8: take his the DNA found on the Knight sheet and

625
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 8: they would create a fake profile on a genealogy website

626
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 8: that prohibits law enforcement from doing this kind of behavior,

627
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 8: and then they would plug it in and then ask

628
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 8: the genealogy website if there are any relatives that are

629
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 8: related to the fake profile that they created. And that's

630
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 8: what they did in this case. But that doesn't just

631
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 8: stop there. They gave the information to the local police,

632
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 8: and they told them not to tell everybody.

633
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: They told them.

634
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 8: To keep it a secret and to pretend like they

635
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 8: had discovered this information on their own.

636
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: To Heather Barnhart, Heather, what else, if anything, did you

637
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: find on Coburger's face?

638
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 13: Oh, my gosh, we found so much, from paranoia looking

639
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 13: for federal wire tapping to even a screenshot of you,

640
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 13: Nancy and Crime Stories from YouTube cash to his device.

641
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 13: I'm sorry, repeate, yes, you it seems as if you

642
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 13: would watch Crime Stories, your show on YouTube and it

643
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 13: was cast to his phone.

644
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 2: Okay, back to Karen Stark, Oh, what if anything does

645
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 2: that mean?

646
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 1: Karen?

647
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 6: If we look at what he's interested in, what he's

648
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 6: obsessed about, when he's Christmas Eve and he's looking at

649
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 6: his phone and he's looking at serial killers, then it

650
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 6: makes perfect sense that he would be watching you and

651
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 6: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What is a better place?

652
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 6: I can't think of any and to go and to

653
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 6: watch you look at things, look at people who are analyzing,

654
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 6: talk about killers. We talked about serial killers. So it

655
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 6: makes perfect sense to me that you would be primary

656
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 6: on his phone and he would be wanting to check

657
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 6: you out and actually admire you.

658
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: Heather Barnheart, what did you mean by the Was it

659
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 2: a photo or was it our program?

660
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: What did he have in the cash?

661
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 13: It was YouTube for Crime Story specifically, it would be

662
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 13: him watching YouTube and the phone is just smart enough

663
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 13: and it will take little snippets and snapshots as you're

664
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 13: watching something. So he was watching your show and the

665
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 13: picture of you and the title of Crime Stories was

666
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 13: saved on his device.

667
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: To Chris mcdonnald joining me, who has worked over three

668
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: hundred homicides twenty five years in Ellie Star of the

669
00:38:52,360 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 2: Interview Room on YouTube. Okay, it's typical to ISO isolate

670
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 2: onto say your prosecutor or a particular witness against you,

671
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: but that's really freaky.

672
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: Watching Crime Stories and or me to the point his

673
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: phone saves it.

674
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, think about that in its totality here, right,

675
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 7: and as I mean, he he's like a scientist who

676
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 7: looks at bugs, you know, and of how he sees

677
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 7: people and what he does with obviously with observing you know,

678
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 7: criminal shows like yourself. Here is he's wanting to learn

679
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 7: from you. So he's seeing you a little bit different.

680
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 7: I mean, if you look at his contacts in his phone,

681
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 7: he set one of his contacts he identifies her as heir. Okay,

682
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 7: now think about that. He has he personalized everything life

683
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 7: down to a singular word and it's not even a name.

684
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 7: So not surprised me at all. You know, we may

685
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,879
Speaker 7: not understand the why on this day, we definitely understand

686
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 7: the what okay, what's in his mind? And then what

687
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,439
Speaker 7: he did and how he executed it.

688
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 2: All of the plotting, the planning, the scheming, the malice

689
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 2: of forethought would typically lead a prosecutor to seek the

690
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 2: death penalty when four innocent people were savagely murdered.

691
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: That did not happen.

692
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: And now when everything's all set and done, we're finding

693
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: out the truth. Is there any way that fads will

694
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: step in and seek the federal death penalty? What more

695
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 2: will we learn about Brian Koburger and who and why

696
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: was that video leaked? And Kim Brian Coiberger Get crime

697
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: stories behind Bars. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,