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Speaker 1: Welcome to Behind the Bestards where we talk about a trucities.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about. Said, ah, what an incredible introduction, Sophie.

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Speaker 2: I need to get one of those. Can we can

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Speaker 2: we put one on order? Yeah, we're putting one on order.

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Speaker 1: And should you know they're they're not that expensive and

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Speaker 1: they make the sad stuff hurt less.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I should get one of those. And

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Speaker 2: that's how I should just read every episode. I could

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Speaker 2: just sing all of these stories.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you could. It's you can learn and

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Speaker 1: also you can cope at the same time, which is nice.

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Speaker 2: You can lope. Yeah, don't we all want to lope?

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Speaker 2: Sophie's Sophie's eyes and her her her words say no,

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Speaker 2: but my desire to have one of those things says yes.

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Speaker 1: Your face to sing no, but your mouth is so

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Speaker 1: so saying no.

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Speaker 2: Booth.

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Speaker 1: All right, Oh god, what an exciting episode we have

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Speaker 1: for today. A lot of yeah drama, there's goingbe a

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Speaker 1: car chase. Matt's gonna finish his taxes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you get back to those taxes, and I'll

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Speaker 2: start talking about Joey Mengs again because you.

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Speaker 1: Know I'm gonna I'm once again I did the first episode.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing this the last episode. I'm opening with a plug.

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Speaker 1: Motherfucker's because oh yeah, yeah, yeah plug.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing.

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Speaker 1: I mostly talk about the Wire and or you know

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Speaker 1: TV shows in general.

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Speaker 2: We did.

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Speaker 1: Uh, it's part of Yourself a Gun is the name

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Speaker 1: of the podcast. Part of Yourself a Gun. Give us

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Speaker 1: five stars in review and listen to us talk about

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Speaker 1: the Wire. We just finished season two, which was on

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Speaker 1: the Docks, and uh, you know, that was definitely a

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Speaker 1: polarizing season, but uh, that was my favorite season one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's important. It shows a lot of

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Speaker 2: the under underdiscussed side of how the drug trade works exactly.

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Speaker 1: And it also, you know, it talks about Polish people

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Speaker 1: and you know, how many of.

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Speaker 2: The history's greatest monsters. Yes, absolutely, we're talking about this right,

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Speaker 2: you know, it talks about how many of them it

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Speaker 2: takes to screw in a light bulb. Yeah, oh a lot. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: shocking number, a shocking number. And on the next speaking

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Speaker 2: of behind the bastards, the Polish people, wow, all of them.

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Speaker 2: That is especially inappropriate given that we are talking about Auschwitz. Yes,

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Speaker 2: but that people who want to cancel you for that

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Speaker 2: are going to have to get in line between behind

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Speaker 2: all the other things. I mean seriously at this point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if the jar J sound bites alone, I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, very rude, and I understand why you wouldn't

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Speaker 3: be busting, but you know what still Mesa Bustin's.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for that, that gentle landing back

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Speaker 2: into Mangola territory. So, Joseph Mangola, he gets portrayed a

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Speaker 2: lot in kind of popular media. You know, if you

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Speaker 2: watch stuff like The Boys from Brazil or whatever, He's

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Speaker 2: like this Nazi mad scientist. He's obsessed with creating you know,

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Speaker 2: new Ariyan people or hit clones of Hitler, all this

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Speaker 2: kind of like like Marvel ass shit, right, doctor Wolfenstein type. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: And that's very much how Mangolo almost immediately after the war,

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Speaker 2: how Mangola gets contextualized up until David Marwell's book Unmasking

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Speaker 2: the Angel of Death, and Marvell points out Mengola what

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Speaker 2: he's doing, like his research is, is not him just

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Speaker 2: being a crazy asshole or him wanting to hurt people.

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Speaker 2: He's not doing anything for out of pure maliciousness. What

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Speaker 2: he's doing is carrying out experiments for on behalf of

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Speaker 2: other scientists who are more highly regarded than him, in

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Speaker 2: order to pursue ends that they could not pursue without

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Speaker 2: the sheer quantity of bodies that Auschwitz provided them with.

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Speaker 2: He was planning to use the research that he did

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Speaker 2: at the camp as the basis for his habilitation shrift,

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Speaker 2: which is the German word for a postdoctoral thesis, which

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Speaker 2: was kind of if you want to be a professional academic,

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Speaker 2: and that was his dream to be a respected scientist,

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Speaker 2: that's the thing you have to do first. He is

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Speaker 2: not the only scientist at a death camp who is

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Speaker 2: in this who isn't doctor at a death camp who's

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Speaker 2: in this boat of like, I've got my MD. I

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Speaker 2: want to be an academic scientist when the war ends.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to do research here, and I'm going

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Speaker 2: to help people who are more respected than I am

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Speaker 2: do research here so that I can grease palms and

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Speaker 2: get my way into Basically, they're all like gunning for

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Speaker 2: fucking getting the equivalent of a tenure, you know, Like

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Speaker 2: that's the kind of thing he's looking for here, and

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Speaker 2: he's hoping that like if I help people out here,

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Speaker 2: you know, just.

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Speaker 1: Trying to get job stability, Guys come on what he's doing.

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Speaker 1: It's very very competitive.

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Speaker 2: So if I have to.

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Speaker 1: Do a little bit of murder, a little bit of torture,

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Speaker 1: it's part of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't even get into a postgraduate program here

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Speaker 2: without both the sixteen hundred on your SATs and two

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Speaker 2: years at a death camp. Yeah, it's very important.

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Speaker 1: You have to get very very high on your death

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Speaker 1: campus aities, and I'm sorry you can't. Hey, don't blame

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Speaker 1: me for having the grind set mindset, and it's specifically

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Speaker 1: the meat grinder set minder set.

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Speaker 2: It's actually more fucked up than that because one of

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Speaker 2: Mengel's colleagues at Auschwitz, doctor Hans Delmott, is also working

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Speaker 2: on getting doing his post doctoral thesis, but he's not

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Speaker 2: doing it on his own. He saves a Jewish inmate

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Speaker 2: physician who he enslaves and makes him help him with

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Speaker 2: his dissertation. Like that's literally what these guys are doing,

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Speaker 2: is they're enslaving better doctors so that they can get

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Speaker 2: help getting their fucking dissertations. Insane, just completely insane. Say,

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Speaker 2: mix not as worried about chat GPT sheeting on tests. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's not even that bad compared.

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Speaker 1: To this is this is why fucking you know people

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Speaker 1: are like, oh, but it's positive stereotypes. Well, sometimes those

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Speaker 1: can be used against you, all right, Yeah, I know

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Speaker 1: a lot of bad Jewish doctors. Okay, so fucking don't

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Speaker 1: enslave the good ones, please, yeah, don't in slate.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, So, like his fellow Nazi doctors, Joseph deliberately

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Speaker 2: cultivated a stable of gifted slave doctors, men and women

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Speaker 2: to help him carry out research and prepare human body

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Speaker 2: parts for transfer to institutions in Germany, like the kaiserville

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Speaker 2: Helm Institute. Before the war, twin studies had been hard

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Speaker 2: to carry out, but during Mangelo's time at Auschwitz more

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Speaker 2: than seven hundred and fifty thousand people passed through its doors,

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Speaker 2: which is a lot of twins alongside people with all

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Speaker 2: manner of disabilities he wanted samples from. At one point,

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Speaker 2: he came across a hunchback and his son who had

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Speaker 2: a club foot. Mengelo was immediately fascinated by both men,

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Speaker 2: and he sent them off to doctor Miklos, whose office

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Speaker 2: was the dissecting room by the number one crematorium. Here's

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Speaker 2: miklos father and son, their faces wan from their miserable

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Speaker 2: years in the Liesmanstrat Ghetto were filled with forebodings. They

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Speaker 2: looked at me questioningly. I took them across the courtyard,

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Speaker 2: which at this hour of the day was filled with sunlight.

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Speaker 2: On our way to the dissecting room, I reassured them

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Speaker 2: with a few well chosen words. Luckily there were no

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Speaker 2: corpses on the dissecting table. It would have indeed been

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Speaker 2: a horrible sight for them to come upon. To spare them,

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Speaker 2: I decided not to conduct the examination in the austere

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Speaker 2: dissecting room, which wreaked with the odor of formaldehyde, but

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Speaker 2: in the pleasant, well lighted study hall. From our conversation

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Speaker 2: I learned that the father had been a respected citizen

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Speaker 2: of Lietzminstad, a wholesaler in cloth. During the years of

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Speaker 2: peace between the wars, he had often taken his son

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Speaker 2: with him on his business trips to Vienna to have

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Speaker 2: him examined and treated by the most famous specialists. I

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Speaker 2: first examined the father in detail, omitting nothing. The deviation

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Speaker 2: of his spinal column was the result of retarded rics gets.

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Speaker 2: In spite of a most thorough examination, I discovered no

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Speaker 2: symptom of any other illness. I tried to console him

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Speaker 2: by telling him that he would probably be sent to

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Speaker 2: a work camp, but he was not. Both father and

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Speaker 2: son are shot on Mangla's orders, and Miklos is forced

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Speaker 2: to autopsy them while they are still warm. After that, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it gets bleaker. Late in the afternoon, Yeah, it does,

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Speaker 2: it does. It does get worse. That's it gets a

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Speaker 2: lot worse late in the afternoon. Having already sent at

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Speaker 2: least ten thousand men to their death, doctor Mangola arrived.

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Speaker 2: He listened attentively to my report concerning both the InVivo

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Speaker 2: and post mortem observations made on the two victims. These

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Speaker 2: bodies must not be cremated, he said, They must be

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Speaker 2: prepared and their skeletons sent to the Anthropological Museum in Berlin.

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Speaker 2: What systems do you know for the preparation of skeletons?

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Speaker 2: And there are a couple of ways to prepare a

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Speaker 2: skeleton when a living thing dies. The ultimate solution me

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Speaker 2: close picked was basically to boil the dead bodies until

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Speaker 2: the meat could be removed. You had to sit and

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Speaker 2: wait by the casks bubbling over a fire while they cooked.

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Speaker 2: At one point a group of Polish prisoners found them

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Speaker 2: and starving mistook them for stew and they had to

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Speaker 2: be stopped. Yeah, I mean it's like it's it's like

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Speaker 2: it's nightmarish, it's it's ghastly. I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what to tell you, Like, I feel like it's

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Speaker 2: not enough to say he had people killed and sent

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Speaker 2: their body parts to universities, Like, I don't think that

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Speaker 2: gets at If you want the story of Joseph Mangla,

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Speaker 2: it's important to have the texture of like, this is

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Speaker 2: what's being done. Like, Yeah, I don't know, I don't

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Speaker 2: know the story. Yeah, No, it's it's a fucking nightmare,

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Speaker 2: do it getting getting those getting those deductions in search? Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 2: there was some actual scientific research done at Auschwitz and

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Speaker 2: done under Mangola. The best example of this would be

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Speaker 2: a study into a rare illness called NOMA. David Marwell

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Speaker 2: recounts in a chilling passage how he first became aware

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Speaker 2: of this research. In the mid nineteen eighties. He was

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Speaker 2: going through a historical collection in a German town called

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Speaker 2: bad Arrolson when he came across a form signed by

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Speaker 2: doctor Mengela requesting that histological sections be made from a

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Speaker 2: medical specimen sent to the SS Laboratory on June twenty ninth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty four. The specimen was almost certainly prepared by

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Speaker 2: our friend Miklos quote. It indicated that the specimen being

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Speaker 2: sent to the laboratory was the head of a twelve

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Speaker 2: year old boy. At the time, I was unaware of

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Speaker 2: any conceivable reason why such a specimen would be of

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Speaker 2: interest to Joseph Mangola, and this document only reinforced my

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Speaker 2: notion of him as a wildly sadistic, grotesque monster. But

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Speaker 2: Marwll dug into precisely why the sample had been made. Now.

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Speaker 2: It did not challenge the opinion that Mangela is a monster,

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Speaker 2: but it did make it clear that there was nothing

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Speaker 2: wild or sadistic about why he was doing this. Noma

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Speaker 2: is a rare disease. It's been with us for thousands

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Speaker 2: of years and is sometimes called the grazer. In fact,

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Speaker 2: noma is derived from the Greek work word nemo, which

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Speaker 2: means to graze or devour. When human beings are forced

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Speaker 2: to live in close quarters with poor sanitation and little nutrition,

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Speaker 2: they get these ulcers in their mouth, and left untreated,

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Speaker 2: these ulcers grow and will eventually devour the cheek and

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Speaker 2: lip and basically the entire head. These necrotic lesions expose

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Speaker 2: bone and teeth and are fatal. One check inmate doctor

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Speaker 2: later testified whole chunks of flesh would come off the

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Speaker 2: affected areas. The lower jaw was also affected. I never

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Speaker 2: saw such severe cases of gangrene of the cheek. And

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Speaker 2: these are the samples. These are the heads. The heads

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Speaker 2: of people with this disease are what Mangola is preserving

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Speaker 2: and sending off to educational institutions in the Reich. Mangelo

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Speaker 2: was excited by the outbreak of NOMA because it provided

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Speaker 2: him with an opportunity to send his colleague samples of

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Speaker 2: this extremely rare disease.

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Speaker 1: That's where the sadistic part comes in, the part where

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Speaker 1: he is excited about the.

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Speaker 2: App Yeah, that's like and I mean it gets it's

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Speaker 2: so fucked up, Like, so he does they do attempt

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Speaker 2: to treat this, and they do. He assigns a prominent

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Speaker 2: Pedia patrician who had been arrested by the Nazis to

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Speaker 2: like manage the research of how to treat this, and

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Speaker 2: this guy named Epstein, this doctor, he and Mangola experiment

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Speaker 2: with a number of treatments for noma from medications to diets.

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Speaker 2: Some of what Mangla did is basically like he's alleged

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Speaker 2: to have taken fluid from the ulcers of noma sufferers

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Speaker 2: and injected it into healthy inmates to try to study

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Speaker 2: how it spreads, which is a horrible, horrible crime. But

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Speaker 2: he is you can see, he's not like doing this

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Speaker 2: for no reason. He's doing this because he's trying to

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Speaker 2: get a dissertation basically once, right, Like, it's not it's

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Speaker 2: not it's not like random madness, you know that's driving this.

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Speaker 1: He's not actually doing what I think, like you've been saying,

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Speaker 1: like the popular culture would have you believe that it

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Speaker 1: is just a guy who's like, what if I, you know,

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Speaker 1: fucking make an eight armed person, Yeah, just to make

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Speaker 1: something horrible and grotesque, just to prove my evil. And

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Speaker 1: in this case, it's just like what if associopath also

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Speaker 1: was into experiments?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and what if? And the thing, like, the important

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Speaker 2: thing is that, like the reason he's excited is partly

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Speaker 2: because he knows that other doctors are interested in this,

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Speaker 2: and so he's able to provide them with things that

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Speaker 2: they need that will improve their opinion of him and

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Speaker 2: his standing in the medical established. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, so part of why he's excited is this is

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Speaker 1: more opportunities for fucking career advantage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a career guy, right, Yeah, God, oh this

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Speaker 2: would be great for my LinkedIn page neat a dick. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 2: Epstein is a competent physician, and because he has more

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Speaker 2: test subjects than anyone who has studied noma before have

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Speaker 2: ever had, he succeeds. He succeeds in creating a pretty

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Speaker 2: groundbreaking treatment for noma, which is like, good, it's good

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Speaker 2: to saw, you know, a disease to find a way

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Speaker 2: to treat it. But I would hesitate that people like

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Speaker 2: credit this as a medical advancement due to death camp experiments, because,

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Speaker 2: as Marwell notes, it must be kept in mind that

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Speaker 2: the disease was a product of the camp itself. Simple

258
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Speaker 2: measures of sanitation and a modest standard of nutrition were

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Speaker 2: all that would have been necessary to prevent an outbreak.

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Speaker 2: Epstein might have solved the riddle of the treatment, but

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Speaker 2: no child he cured of this disease survived the camp. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's you know, it's solving a problem with an

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Speaker 1: outbreak that you fucking created.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's bombing the village to save it kind

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Speaker 2: of logic. Now this begs the question, though, what kind

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Speaker 2: of twin research did Mangola get up to at Auschwitz

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Speaker 2: and what was its actual purpose. Gerald Posner, who wrote

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Speaker 2: one of the earlier biographies of Mangola, like most people,

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Speaker 2: imagines his purpose as some nefarious ploy to try and

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Speaker 2: create new arians by finding ways to rea create the

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Speaker 2: conditions which cause people to have twins. Right, And this

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Speaker 2: is like the standard line on Mangola for decades is that, like, well,

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Speaker 2: he was doing all this twin research because he was

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Speaker 2: trying to find ways to like help arians have more twins, right, right,

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Speaker 2: And a big reason why this spreads is because of

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Speaker 2: doctor Miklos. He's probably the first person to suggest this,

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Speaker 2: and he suggests this because he works directly for Mangola

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Speaker 2: on twins who had been murdered at Auschwitz. But Mangela

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Speaker 2: did not treat Miklos like an academic equal. He's not

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Speaker 2: like walking him through why he's doing all of this stuff,

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Speaker 2: and so Miklos's belief is understandable, but it doesn't reflect

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Speaker 2: the most likely explanation for these experiments. Mar Well points

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Speaker 2: out that if that had been the purpose of Mengela's research,

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Speaker 2: he would have been studying the parents of twins, right,

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Speaker 2: because that's at least as important if what you're trying

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Speaker 2: to do is make there be more twins. What he

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Speaker 2: was actually doing with all these twins studies is providing

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Speaker 2: his mentor von Verschuer, with a steady supply of twins

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Speaker 2: he could run tests on to check all sorts of

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Speaker 2: heredity theories. Right. He is getting letters from different doctors saying, hey,

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Speaker 2: can you conduct this kind of study? Can you conduct

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Speaker 2: this kind of study? And then he's conducting them. He's

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Speaker 2: killing the twins, he's autopsyeing them, and that's why he's

294
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Speaker 2: doing it, right, So it's not he is not. What's

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Speaker 2: important here is he is not the only person morally

296
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Speaker 2: culpable in the death of these kids. The other doctors

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00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,920
Speaker 2: are asking all of these motherfuckers, right, yeah, exactly, and

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Speaker 2: von Verschure is like the biggest of them. And the

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Speaker 2: fact that he has access to all these kids, this

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00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,920
Speaker 2: kind of what these doctors see as a resource that

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00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 2: has never existed before, makes Mengela, who had previously been

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00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 2: a middling to low level figure in German medicine, invaluable

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Speaker 2: to the most respected doctors in the country. Marwell writes

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Speaker 2: although twin research was well funded and promising in its

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00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,840
Speaker 2: potential to produce meaningful results, it's pursuit presented a number

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00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,600
Speaker 2: of obstacles. It was an extremely involved undertaking, requiring personnel

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00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 2: to carry out the various measurements and record keeping. A

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00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,520
Speaker 2: supply of appropriate twin pairs had to be identified, located,

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Speaker 2: and induced to participate. The entire process required a huge

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Speaker 2: investment of time and money. In the case of Reschuer's

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Speaker 2: own research at the Kaiservillhelm Institute, it took more than

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00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,679
Speaker 2: seven months to distribute twelve hundred questionnaires to schools in

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Speaker 2: search of twin subjects. That effort produced one thousand possible

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Speaker 2: twin pairs, but resulted in only forty who were actually examined.

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Speaker 2: The proposed experiment might be unpleasant, painful, or have side effects.

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Speaker 2: Beyond the disincentives presented by the inconveniences and unknowns of

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00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 2: the process, there were also legal hurdles. It was forbidden

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Speaker 2: in Germany, even under the Nazis, to intentionally infect a

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Speaker 2: German citizen with a disease, a prohibition that led many

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00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:41,280
Speaker 2: scientists to conduct experiments on themselves so in fact, we're

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Speaker 2: really cutting through the red tape, is well exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: And they're doing it because Mangle he's like a dealer.

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Speaker 2: He's like a twin dealer to doctors in the Reich, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you got some twin studies you need done, Like Joey

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Speaker 2: Meng's he's got your back, you know, maybe help him

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Speaker 2: with his dissertation when he gets at Auschwitz.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I noah, guy, Yeah, he's kind of a piece

328
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Speaker 1: of shit, but.

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Speaker 2: He's got the twins you need. So people would send

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Speaker 2: him requests, he would do the studies, he'd kill the twins.

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Speaker 2: Then he'd have miklos you know, take off parts of

332
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Speaker 2: their bodies or whatever, and they would be mailed to

333
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:21,280
Speaker 2: different institutes marked urgent war materials. Now this was that's

334
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,680
Speaker 2: not like this seems like it's probably just like, oh,

335
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 2: it's a convenient way for them to get priority in

336
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,119
Speaker 2: the packages. But for soldier scientists like Mengola, this is

337
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 2: part of the war effort. This is the war effort,

338
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,960
Speaker 2: this is the whole war. For him, it's a race war.

339
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,439
Speaker 2: This is why, and this is how the broader German

340
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 2: Nazi establishment sees it, which is why in the last

341
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 2: days of the war when they are getting their asses

342
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 2: handed to them. They're diverting crucial military resources to ensuring

343
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 2: the camps can continue to operate, because that's a front

344
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,160
Speaker 2: of the battle for them in saying yeah, I mean

345
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:56,800
Speaker 2: fucking Nazis.

346
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Speaker 1: Man, yeah, once again on record and Nazi.

347
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:05,879
Speaker 2: Anti Nazi good fair. So. Back at the Kaiser Vilhelm Institute,

348
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,119
Speaker 2: von Varschuer planned to create a department of embryology and

349
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,639
Speaker 2: a vast collection of human samples and embryos, including fetuses

350
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,240
Speaker 2: and stillborn infants, removed at the camp and sent to

351
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Speaker 2: his institute.

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Speaker 1: Now, God, I do not want to go that, Like,

353
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Speaker 1: that's got to be the creepiest fucking institute.

354
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the building is still in use, right,

355
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,239
Speaker 2: they don't call it that anymore. Yeah. Did they get

356
00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,920
Speaker 2: rid of their jar room? Probably? Yeah, that, I mean

357
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,399
Speaker 2: not as quickly as you'd expect. Really, a lot of

358
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 2: the body parts that are taken out are in use

359
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,440
Speaker 2: up until like the eighties ninety. I mean, there was

360
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,640
Speaker 2: a story in Deals with fourteen on what used Because

361
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 2: it's like a college campus and what used to be

362
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,960
Speaker 2: the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute. Right outside, they find like a

363
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 2: bunch of people's bones and like they don't know who's Like.

364
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 2: The government got rid of those very quickly, was like, yeah, wait,

365
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 2: we don't need to be looking into why these bones

366
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 2: are here, whose bones they are? Let's get those just

367
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 2: pop up?

368
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 3: Is it?

369
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah? Those are dinosaur bones. Let's move on. Speaking of

370
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 2: moving on, you know what really helps me move on,

371
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 2: but much makes you move on? Is it products and services.

372
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,640
Speaker 2: It is products and services, products and services that had

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00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 2: no role in say Auschwitz, which, in addition to being

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00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,119
Speaker 2: a death camp, was not also a manufacturing facility for

375
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,360
Speaker 2: modern day corporations like the ig Farbin company who now

376
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,479
Speaker 2: makes your aspirin. Oh yeah, they didn't use slave workers

377
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,640
Speaker 2: who were worked to death ensuring their future profits which

378
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,159
Speaker 2: they were allowed to roll into the business after the

379
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 2: Holocaust and the end of the right. That didn't happen.

380
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 2: That would be fucked up. You wouldn't let that happen. No,

381
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,360
Speaker 2: these are good products and services.

382
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm never gonna take asprint again.

383
00:20:51,240 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 2: Mm hmm that's right, baby, never Advil, Advil company leave

384
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 2: the zut Oh we were yeah bear yeah, yeah, yeah, wait,

385
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 2: I'm looking up who makes Adville? Who makes Adville? Look

386
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 2: it up because I think we could get a pretty good,

387
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,239
Speaker 2: pretty good uh uh, pretty good ad out of this.

388
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 2: You know, Adville, we were not involved in the Holocaust.

389
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 1: Adville, we were not involved in the hall.

390
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's clear, Boots Uk, I think we're good. Yeah,

391
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 2: we're nothing.

392
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:31,920
Speaker 1: A dude.

393
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 2: Take some pills you it will go. Pizer. No, it

394
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 2: looks like it was invented at least by some British company,

395
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 2: but it's it's manufactured by Pfizer, is it? Not sure?

396
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 2: But they didn't kill any people. They didn't. They're not

397
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 2: responsible also for hundreds of thousands of death, Sophie. That

398
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 2: doesn't seem I did was make boner pills. And now

399
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 2: my deck is hot. Robert Evans, big pharma apologist. Yah know,

400
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:12,199
Speaker 2: it's fine. Weird take from you, sir. We're back and

401
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 2: we're talking about all the different big pharma companies that

402
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 2: and how I have didn't love them the huge fan

403
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:25,360
Speaker 2: love them, big big pharma farmer bro like Margrelly. That's right.

404
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 2: So the best known story about Mangola at Auschwitz is

405
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 2: probably is the the one that like the idea that

406
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 2: he supposedly sewed two inmates together to try twin myth. Yeah,

407
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 2: that is a frequent myth. There's also allegations he tried

408
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 2: to quote make boys into girls and girls into boys

409
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: through cross transfusions, and that he connected the urinary tract

410
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 2: of a seven year old girl to her own colon.

411
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 2: And if you hear these stories like, that's all mad

412
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 2: doctor shit. Obviously, because the Nazis destroyed a lot of

413
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 2: records and Joseph himself is not a reliable source on

414
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 2: his activities, we will never know exactly what he did.

415
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 2: But David Marwell points out that a lot of these

416
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: stories are either false or exaggerations of reality, or kind

417
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: of misattributions of real crimes to Mangola. And this gets

418
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 2: us into a really complicated piece of Holocaust history, which

419
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 2: is the Mengola effect. In the aftermath of World War

420
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 2: Two spoilers, Mengola escapes right. He gets away in large

421
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 2: part because he doesn't get that tattoo on his arm

422
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: that all the SS guys get. So when he's being

423
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 2: after he gets you know, the unit he's with gets

424
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 2: captured because he embeds with a Wehrmacht unit. When the

425
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 2: Americans are processing them, they don't immediately see, oh, this

426
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: is a fucking ss guy. Let's put him in, you know,

427
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 2: make sure he's not one of the ones that we're

428
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 2: looking for. So he does get away. But by that point,

429
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: Auschwitz had already kind of written itself into the heart

430
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: and soul of the human race, and the first inmates

431
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 2: to be interviewed talked about the doctors who had so

432
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 2: often been the architect of their misery. Some of the

433
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 2: people who survived in best health and thus were in

434
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: the best position to talk were Mengela's patients. Because his patients,

435
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 2: the twins and stuff that he works with, he took

436
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 2: really good care of. A lot of the time they

437
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 2: would enjoy good food and better accommodations until they were killed, right,

438
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: And he's not doing that out of the goodness of

439
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 2: his heart. It's because he wants the subjects that can

440
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: withstand the testing that he was going to do. But

441
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 2: because of this, some of the people who he hadn't

442
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 2: got to when he flees Auschwitz are some of the

443
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: first people who were able to talk. And just in general,

444
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 2: Mengela's name spreads very quickly as one of the architects

445
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 2: of this nightmare that is Auschwitz, and a curious thing

446
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: occurs after that, which is that more and more Auschwitz

447
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: inmates over the years record Mengola experiences than could possibly

448
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 2: have known or seen him. Part of how we know

449
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: that these are not accurate recollections is that he's often

450
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: described as tall, blonde, and well built. Mengolo was five

451
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: foot eight and dark hair. Historian zadenek Zofka claims that

452
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 2: almost all inmates at Auschwitz would later claim to have

453
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: been selected personally by Mengola when they arrived at the camp,

454
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 2: which can't have been possible. We simply know that many

455
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: other doctors were doing that job. Hermann Langbein was an

456
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 2: Auschwitz survivor and author of the seminal book People in Auschwitz.

457
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 2: He noted that many former inmates not only insisted they'd

458
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 2: had direct contact with Mengela, but and this is really strange,

459
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 2: they tended to remember him as being hot. And I'm

460
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 2: like trying not to joke about this, but I'm going

461
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 2: to read you a quote from this guy's book. It's

462
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: very strange. Some well known ss men have been positively

463
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: idealized after the fact. Thus, Fannia Fenelon has called Mengela

464
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 2: a handsome Siegfried and teres chesaang writes, Mengelo is immaculate

465
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 2: in his belted uniform, tall with shiny black boots that

466
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: bespeak cleanliness, prosperity and human dignity. He does not move

467
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 2: a muscle. He is insensitive. Eli Vizell mentions that Mengela's

468
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 2: characteristic tributes as white gloves, a monocle, and the rest.

469
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 2: Jiri Steiner, a twin used by Mangola in his series

470
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 2: of experiments, speaks of his angelic smile, and Siegfried van

471
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: der Berg believes that in a film, Mangola should be

472
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 2: portrayed by no less than the famous lady killer Ramon Navarro.

473
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,479
Speaker 2: Carl Laslow describes Mengola as a strikingly handsome man who

474
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 2: had a fascinating, spellbinding effect even on female prisoners, and continues,

475
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: Mengola came with a motionless face and his beautiful, regular

476
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: cold features that seemed to be carved out of stone,

477
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 2: appeared to be the mark of death itself. In his

478
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: shiny boots, he walked rhythmically on the camp road. I

479
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,239
Speaker 2: saw Mangola almost every day in the office of the

480
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 2: SS Infirmary, where he was doing routine bureaucratic work, and

481
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: he struck me as neither particularly attractive nor elegant. I

482
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: never saw him where a monocle, now lang been Obviously

483
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: these guys are all at Auschwitz. Elie Vizzell is one

484
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 2: of the most famous Holocaust survivors there is, you know,

485
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: He writes, fucking night, they're not like it like the

486
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 2: there's no I'm not putting any shade on these people

487
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: for the fact that their memories of this are kind

488
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: of fucked up, and Langbean coins the term the Mangola

489
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: effect to describe what he calls a form of memory displacement,

490
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 2: where real memories of trauma are mutated, sometimes into different

491
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 2: acts of terror, and generally credited not to whichever Nazi

492
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 2: had committed them, but put to the man who became

493
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: the most famous symbol of Nazi evil at Auschwitz, Joseph Mengela.

494
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: Langbean makes one of the most important observations in Holocaust studies,

495
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: one that inspired this series, when he writes, quote, those

496
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: who kept the machinery of murder going in Auschwitz were

497
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: not devils. They were humans.

498
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's I don't know, I mean,

499
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: there is also part of me that's just like, yeah,

500
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: you know, this is just sounds like years and years

501
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: of conditioning of my dad being like, marry a doctor,

502
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: and this eventually you start looking at anyone as a

503
00:27:58,640 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: doctor is hot.

504
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 2: That's qually what happened.

505
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 1: Just like he's a doctor, you say, I mean, I'm

506
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: telling you this is it's something. It's a it's a

507
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: very Jewish trait. We all want to marry a doctor.

508
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: So we see a doctor. Doesn't matter if it's Awes

509
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: or Mangola.

510
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: I guess equally. Boy by the way, boyowty. So David

511
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: Marwell elaborates get episodes on this podcast. They did, they did,

512
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 2: they did, they did. World bastards, you can't talk about it.

513
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: That's true, that is true. So David Marwell elaborates on

514
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: this kind of peculiar aspect of Auschwitz. Further, the notion

515
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: of Mangola is unhinged, driven by demons and indulging grotesque

516
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: and sadistic impulses, should be replaced by something perhaps even

517
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 2: more unsettling. Mangolo was in fact in the scientific vanguard,

518
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: enjoying the confidence and mentorship of the leaders in his field.

519
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: And that, yeah, that's that's kind of the most unsettling thing,

520
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: or at least one of them about this is that

521
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: experimentation is the norm at Auschwitz, and Mengelow joined many

522
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: of his colleagues in utilizing patients as experimental resources. They

523
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: were able to justify this to themselves not by saying,

524
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: you know, fuck these people, they all have it coming.

525
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: Most of them did not talk about it that way,

526
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: and most of them were capable of being perfectly like

527
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: polite and even to some degree sensitive to the patients

528
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: or to the inmates that they worked with on a

529
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: daily basis.

530
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: Guys like this ideology based on like, well, this is

531
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: for the greater scientific good of exactly particular race.

532
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: And they found also aside from that, they found other ways.

533
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 2: A lot of ways they would justify it, is like that, well,

534
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 2: these people are sick. They're all going to die anyway.

535
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: We might as well learn something from them. You know,

536
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: the governments decided they're going to kill all these people,

537
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: So what can I do? I can't do anything, but

538
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: maybe I can help a few people here and there,

539
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, And isn't it.

540
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: Probably the most sickening part of it is that people

541
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: going like, you know, these people are all gonna die anyway,

542
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: and it's like not.

543
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: If you don't let it happen. You don't have to

544
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: do this part of the machine. Yeah, God damn, yeah,

545
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 2: they don't. They don't seem to take that into account.

546
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: So we have some idea of how Joseph rationalized his

547
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: own behavior because half a lifetime later, when he's on

548
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: the run, he spends two weeks with his estranged son Rolf,

549
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 2: and this is when he's an old man. He's kind

550
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: of near death. And Ralf is Ralph is an interesting character.

551
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: He's part of how Posner's biography gets written because he

552
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 2: brings Posner after his dad dies. His dad's Mengela writes

553
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: a memoir that's like he writes it like a fiction

554
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: novel where he gives himself a fake name and like

555
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: kind of fictional writes it. Basically, this is the fictional story.

556
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: And the doctor ed Auschwitz. He doesn't, he doesn't if

557
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: I did it like he does. He doesn't know Jay

558
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: with his fucking memoirs. But Ralf, you know, mengel Is

559
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: family supports him for the entire rest of his life.

560
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: They're like, because they're rich, they're still to this day,

561
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: there's the Mngola company is successful. They're sending him money.

562
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: They help him stay on the run and Rolf kind

563
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: of grows up. He only meets Mengola once when he's

564
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: a child and he's being he's told that Joseph is

565
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: not his dad but his uncle, who's like on the

566
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: run because the Allies are unfairly prosecuting him. But as

567
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: he grows up, they exchange letters when he becomes an adult,

568
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: and Rolf Number one winds up being left wing, which

569
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: like his family is deeply conservative. They're fucking Nazis. And

570
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: so eventually, like he has, he's very he's very conflicted.

571
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: He comes to accept he is the number one. There's

572
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: less information available, you know, at this period of time,

573
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: like the internet's not a thing. But he comes to accept,

574
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: maybe I don't know exactly what my dad did, maybe

575
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: the Allied stories aren't exactly accurate, but my dad did

576
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: fucked up shit at Auschwitz and it's indefensible, right. He

577
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: comes to that conclusion, which fair enough, good for you, Rolf.

578
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: And so he travels to meet his dad in Brazil

579
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,479
Speaker 2: near kind of the end of his father's life for

580
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: a two week period, and Ralph, you know again, had

581
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: educated himself a little on the Holocaust, and Posner talks

582
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 2: to him for his book, and here's what he says

583
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: about this meeting where he talks to his dad about

584
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: what his dad did at Auschwitz. I proposed that, and

585
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,239
Speaker 2: this is Ralph Ralph talking. I propose that whatever he

586
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: or anyone else did or did not do in Auschwitz,

587
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: I deeply detested it, since I regard Auschwitz as one

588
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: of the most horrible examples of inhumanity and brutality. He said,

589
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 2: I did not understand he went there had to do

590
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: his duty to carry out orders. He said that everybody

591
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: had to do so in order to survive the basic

592
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: instinct of self preservation. He said he wasn't able to

593
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: think about it. From his point of view. He was

594
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: not personally responsible for the incidents at the camp. He

595
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: said he didn't invent Auschwitz, it already existed. He said

596
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 2: that he wanted to help people in the camp, but

597
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: there had been a limit to what he could do

598
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: as far as selection were concerned. He said the situation

599
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: was analogous to a field hospital during a time of war.

600
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: If ten wounded soldiers are brought into the hospital in

601
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: critical condition, the doctor must make almost instantaneous decisions about

602
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: whom to operate on first. By choosing one, then necessarily

603
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: another must die. My father asked me when people arrived

604
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: at the railhead, what was I supposed to do? People

605
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 2: were arriving infected with disease, half dead. He said, it

606
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: was beyond anyone's imagination to describe the circumstances there. His

607
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: job had been to classify only those able to work

608
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: and those unable to work. He said. He tried to

609
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: great as many people as able to work as possible.

610
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 2: What my father was trying to do was persuade me

611
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: that in this manner he had saved thousands of people

612
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: from certain death.

613
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: He says, what am I, one man supposed to do?

614
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: Is and given so many twins to kill? You saying,

615
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: in my position, you wouldn't do the same thing.

616
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: You wouldn't kill all those twins, those beautiful twins waiting

617
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: to die. But I have to learn about them.

618
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: What you learn, I don't know, but someone will figure

619
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: out something I learned.

620
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: God, we figured out how to cure a disease that

621
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 2: becausts them exactly. Listen.

622
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: I was just like any regular doctor who has a

623
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: bunch of slave doctors working for them to do experiments.

624
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: Guy, we've all been there. We've all been there.

625
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: Ask anyone who's been to medical school whether or not

626
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: they would have done the same thing.

627
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 2: I think you'll find. Yeah, I'm going to continue Roff's quote.

628
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: He said that he did not order and was not

629
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: responsible for gassings, and he said that twins in the

630
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 2: camp owed their lives to him. He said that he

631
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: personally had never harmed anyone in his life. Yeah, I

632
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: had to slave do that. Gee geez, guys. Or is

633
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 2: that ss man who was drinking himself to death?

634
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: Yes, he is the one who shot or slaves. I,

635
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: on the other hand, was sober the whole time. So

636
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: that's good, right, you know it is good? Though, what

637
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: what could possibly be good services? You know, both of

638
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: those things?

639
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are good. Those are good. Ah, we're back.

640
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: So we know that Mangela's claims that he didn't directly

641
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: harm anyone are an obscenity, uh and and not just bullshit?

642
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: Would if I wasn't crying already. Yeah, the crimes that

643
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 2: we have already covered that Joseph committed personally are enough

644
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: to make him one of the worst bastards that has

645
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 2: ever been on this show. And we have just kind

646
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: of scraped the surface of the shit that this guy

647
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: got up to. And while it is possible some of

648
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: these are examples of the Mangola effect, all of them

649
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 2: were present on the indictment that he received from a

650
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 2: West German court. At one point he said to have

651
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 2: taken a newborn child of a Russian woman, grabbed it

652
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: by the head, and thrown it into a pile of

653
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: corpses to kill it. At another he is said to

654
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: have become so ferus when a work gang capo allowed

655
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 2: several prisoners selected to die to hide with his men,

656
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: that he shot the capo with his own pistol. At

657
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: one point, an old man selected to the gas chamber

658
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 2: tried to flee to his son, who was in a

659
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: work group. Mangola bashed his brains open with an iron bar,

660
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 2: killing him. At another point, he got angry because a

661
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: woman gave birth and the selection doctors had failed to

662
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 2: warn him she was pregnant. He threw the newborn baby

663
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 2: into a stove. He is said to have shot a

664
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: sixteen year old girl who fled onto the roof out

665
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: of fear of the gas chamber. Worst of all is

666
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: the testimony of inmate Anani Sailovich Petko a Russian survivor

667
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 2: of Auschwitz. He was there the day a group of

668
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: three hundred children were brought into the camp, having been

669
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 2: separated from their parents. They were all under five years old.

670
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 2: When Mangola saw the group of children, he complained that

671
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 2: it was too hard to gas five year old children,

672
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: so he selected another strategy quote and this is from Petco.

673
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 2: After a while, a large group of SS officers arrived

674
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 2: on motorcycles. Among them, they drove into the yard and

675
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 2: got off their motorcycles. Upon arriving, they circled the flames.

676
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 2: It burned horizontally. We watched to see what would follow.

677
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 2: After a while, the trucks arrived, dump trucks with children inside.

678
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: There were ten of these trucks. After they had entered

679
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 2: the yard, an officer gave an order and the trucks

680
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: backed up to the fire, and they started throwing those

681
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 2: children right into the fire into the pit. The children

682
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: started to scream. Some of them managed to crawl out

683
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 2: of the burning pit. An officer walked around it with

684
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,919
Speaker 2: sticks and pushed those back in who managed to get out.

685
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 2: Hesse and Mangelo were present and were giving orders. I

686
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: have three pieces of nicotine gum in my mouth. Yeah,

687
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: that's about the worst thing I've ever read. I can't

688
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 2: imagine anything worse than that. And that's you know, Joseph Mangola.

689
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: Obviously I considered doing a whole episode about how he

690
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: fled from justice. You know, it is an interesting story.

691
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: It's interesting to me all of these stories. Like the

692
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: gist of it basically is that he spends a couple

693
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 2: of years on a farm in Germany, living low. He

694
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 2: eventually escapes to South America. He bounces around from like

695
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: Brazil to Paraguay. There's a period of time where he's

696
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: able to live under his own name pretty openly, and

697
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: then the Israelis get Iikman and suddenly he has to

698
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: go deep underground because after Iikman, Mangel is like the

699
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: big prisoner that they haven't caught, you know, or a big,

700
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: big war criminal that they haven't caught. So he but

701
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: he's successful and he's able to stay hidden basically because

702
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: a lot of Nazis have real solidarity with him, Like

703
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 2: it's all old Nazis and just South American dudes who

704
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: like the Nazis, and they hide him, but he's it's

705
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 2: kind of worth noting all of these sort of fictional

706
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 2: depictions of Mangola. There's like all sorts of stories of

707
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 2: him as a mad scientist in Latin America trying to

708
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: remake the Master race or whatever. Right, that's not at

709
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 2: all his life. He's he's an old man. He spends

710
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: most of his time where he's working, either selling real

711
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: estate or working as like a contractor for his family

712
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: company selling like farming equipment. He lives off grid for

713
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: a while with a couple with a family and like

714
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 2: eventually they split up with him because they have a

715
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 2: bunch of arcola. Yeah, but it takes like ten it

716
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: takes like a decade or more like he's not too

717
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 2: long be longed to be with Mangola. That's he. That's

718
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: one of the things that's most disturbing those that like

719
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 2: he never does anything terrible while he's on the run

720
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 2: that there's any documentation of. Some people will say he

721
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 2: was kind of a dick, and as he got older,

722
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 2: kind of an unpleasant person. He would send some letters

723
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 2: to his son that they weren't emotionally abusive, but they

724
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 2: were kind of like I wish you'd come and visit.

725
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 2: You know, I don't approve of you know, you should

726
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: get a big thing. Like, the biggest thing that he

727
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: gives his son shit for is that his son became

728
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 2: a lawyer but didn't get a PhD in law, and

729
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 2: he's like, you should become a doctor. Yeah, father foot Stead,

730
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 2: you know the world, here's another doctor Mengola. The point

731
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,959
Speaker 2: is though that he there's evil is not a thing.

732
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 2: Mengola is not just some sort of monster who would

733
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 2: have who would have caused horrible harm no matter where

734
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: he went. He was a guy who was willing to

735
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 2: use unfathomable evil as a tool for personal advancement and

736
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: the advancement of what he saw as science. And when

737
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: that opportunity ended, he was a pretty normal old man, right,

738
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: And that's I think more frightening. It's more frightening.

739
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons why every time I see

740
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: like a Marvel movie, I think it was like, I

741
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: don't know, it was a fucking Captain America or something,

742
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: and they like insist on showing the Nazis trying to

743
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: do like time travel or some something where they're like

744
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: this electricity makes Frankenstein's yea.

745
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 2: And it's just like.

746
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 1: You, you know, in making this uh super villainy, you're

747
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 1: actually undercutting what makes it frightening and what makes it

748
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: evil because it's, uh, you know, it's it's the banality

749
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: of it, you know, Yeah, fucking you know, I don't.

750
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to sound cliche and whatnot, but it

751
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: really is the banality and the bureaucracy and uh just

752
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: kind of the the the efficiency models and the flow charts.

753
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 1: It's all the fucking office shit that means it awful.

754
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: It's what, you know. It's why I don't, you know,

755
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 1: want to work in an office. Yeah, it's because it's

756
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 1: too close to Nazis.

757
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is you bring up working in an office.

758
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: The thing that is most frightening about Joseph Mangola is

759
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: that every single person listening to this knows somebody with

760
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 2: Mangola potential. Yeah, they don't. They're not serial killers. They're

761
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: like they are. They are the people who care so

762
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 2: much about their own advancement and are able to get

763
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 2: themselves so committed to whatever they believe that if they

764
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: were put in an auschwitz, they would do all the

765
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 2: same things.

766
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: I've worked under so many Mangolas. Yeah, like, hell of

767
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: a lot of them in the entertainment and it's industry

768
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: medical industry or industry, tech industry.

769
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 2: Oh tons in the tech industry. There's a lot of

770
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: mangalis out there. Sis. That's like the new Facebook logo ooops, mangliss.

771
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: It's just literally people who were just like, you know, oh,

772
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: it's too bad, that's not you know that it's.

773
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: Illegal to do experiments on humans. It's like, wait, is

774
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: that the only reason you wouldn't do it? Yes, that's

775
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 2: why it's You get this also when people will talk about, like,

776
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: I mean, the Nazis were fucked up, but people, we

777
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 2: did learn a lot from those No we didn't, No, no,

778
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 2: we fucking didn't. There was there There is one experiment

779
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 2: the Nazis carried out on prisoners that taught us anything,

780
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 2: like really meaningful, and it was about like how the

781
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: body responds to hyperthermia and stuff, and like a bunch

782
00:42:55,120 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 2: of nonsense, a huge amount of nonsense. Like it's we

783
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 2: will talk a little bit about the other doctors, because

784
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: this is also a podcast about them, but I do

785
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 2: want to give I don't know, it's weird to call

786
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: this a hopeful story, but I want to talk about

787
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: how our friend Miklos gets out of Auschwitz, and specifically

788
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 2: how he saves his family, his wife and his daughter.

789
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: It's not going to start as a happy story, but

790
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 2: it does end as happily as an Auschwitz story can end. Sure. Once,

791
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: when I was dissecting the body of a fairly old man,

792
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 2: I discovered some very beautiful gallstones in the bladder. Knowing

793
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: that doctor Mengelo was an ardent collector of such items,

794
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 2: I washed the stones, dried them, and then arranged them

795
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: in a large necked flask stoppered with a glass cork.

796
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 2: I stuck a label on the flask, giving the person's name,

797
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 2: the kind of stones they were, and they're pathological characteristics.

798
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 2: During his visit the next day, I gave them to

799
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: doctor Mengela. He admired the beautiful crystals, turning the flask

800
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 2: round and round. He looked at the gallstones, and then,

801
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 2: turning abruptly to me, asked if I knew the ballad

802
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 2: of the Warrior Wallenstein. His question was completely out of

803
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 2: keeping with the surroundings, but I answered, I know the

804
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 2: story of the Warrior Wallenstein, but not the ballad, whereupon,

805
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 2: smiling he began to recite. He says some German which

806
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: translates into English. In the Wallenstein family. There are more

807
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 2: gallstones than precious stones. My superior recited several stanzas of

808
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 2: that comic ballad. He was in such a good mood

809
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 2: that I decided to ask a great favor of him,

810
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: that he let me go look for my wife and child.

811
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: Only after I had uttered the request did I realize

812
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 2: how daring it was. But it was already too late.

813
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 2: He looked at me with astonishment. You're married and have

814
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: a child. Yes, Captain, I'm married and have a fifteen

815
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: year old daughter. I told him, my voice breaking with emotion.

816
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 2: Do you think they are still here? He asked, yes, Captain,

817
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 2: because at our arrival three months ago, you selected them

818
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 2: and sent them to the right hand column. They have

819
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: since been sent to another camp, he said. Suddenly, I

820
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 2: thought of the crematorium smoke. Perhaps they had been dispatched

821
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 2: with that smoke to some celestial camp. Doctor Mangelo, who

822
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,959
Speaker 2: was seated his head bent forward, seemed lost in thought.

823
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 2: I remain standing behind him. I'm going to give you

824
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 2: a pass to go look for them, but he said,

825
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: and placing a forefinger on his lips, he looked at

826
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: me menacingly. I understand, captain, and thank you so that

827
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 2: Mngli gives him a pass and he finds his wife

828
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 2: and his daughter who are alive, and he, because of

829
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: the position he occupies, realizes that their camp is like

830
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 2: a day or two way from being liquidated, and so

831
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 2: he warns them and he gets them to basically tells

832
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: them how they can transfer to a work gang that's

833
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 2: being moved to a separate location, which is not a

834
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: clear survival thing, right, but it's like, look, if you

835
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: get moved to this workang, maybe you die there, but

836
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,479
Speaker 2: it's at least more days than you'll have here, because

837
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 2: they're going to kill everyone in this block. And they

838
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 2: get out and they are you know, Miklos survives the

839
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 2: end of the war. He winds up on what is

840
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 2: supposed to be a death march with the SS guards

841
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 2: as they flee. But he like, it's fucking this guy's

842
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 2: story is fucking miraculous. He makes it, and he kind

843
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: of like after everything is over, ends up kind of

844
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 2: stumbling back to his empty house and like sits down

845
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 2: there and it's just like I don't know what to

846
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 2: do with my life anymore. Like I'm never going to

847
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: be a doctor again. I refuse to conduct another autopsy

848
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 2: or anything like that. So he's just like alone in

849
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 2: this house and then like a couple of days later,

850
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 2: his wife and his daughters show up. Oh wonderful. Yeah

851
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 2: they live. Yes, Yes, Like I said, this is like busting.

852
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm busting over that. That's yeah, it's hoped for.

853
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 2: That is literally the best possible of the outcomes. Yeah,

854
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 2: it's yeah. I mean, there's there's there's so much more

855
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: to like say. One thing that is probably worth noting

856
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 2: is that the Saunder commando that me close is with

857
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: the guys that he's kind of he's have been selected

858
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: with him. He like lives in the barracks with them.

859
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 2: They drink together. They wind up getting guns smuggled to

860
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,439
Speaker 2: them by partisans and carrying out a rebellion. And their

861
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 2: entire goal in this rebellion inside the camp is that

862
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 2: one of them escape so that people, they someone can

863
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 2: tell the world about what happened there. Wow. And they

864
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 2: don't succeed in this. None of the Saunder commando who

865
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 2: rebel survive. They get massacred, but they succeed in destroying

866
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: one of the crematoria ovens as they die, which significantly

867
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: limits the ability of Auschwitz to kill and dispose of people,

868
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: saving god knows how many lives. So that's cool.

869
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: It sucks because it's just like, you know, that is

870
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: an incredible act of heroism, and it's just like so

871
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 1: many of those stories, I feel like I've not been

872
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 1: introduced to so many of the stories, like the majority

873
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: of them are just these awful fucking you know.

874
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: It's it's it's so much more common to tell stories

875
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 2: of suffering than stories of resistance. But you know, there

876
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 2: are numerous stories, especially in like the Polish territories, of

877
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 2: Jewish people and other victims who gain access to guns

878
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 2: they either had him before or they sometimes make them,

879
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 2: or they steal them from Nazis, and they fight back,

880
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: and that is that is a part of the Holocaust too.

881
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 2: And because they fight back, you know, even in each

882
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: of these incidents, you know, maybe only a few people

883
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: get saved. The descendants of those people who were saved

884
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 2: through acts of resistance number today in the hundreds of thousands. Yeah, yeah,

885
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 2: and you know that's a big deal. Doctor Mangela obviously,

886
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 2: is hounded for the rest of his natural life until

887
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 2: he dies drowning off the coast of or at a

888
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 2: lake in Brazil. And he's like, yeah, drowned to death.

889
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he drowns like a little fucking asshole. Yeah,

890
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 2: way to drown, you loser. Oh yeah, that's great. Yeah,

891
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,919
Speaker 2: he fucking drowns. Cool. That is yeah, I mean it's

892
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 2: It's not the most painful way he could have gone.

893
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 2: I would have preferred like hit by a car that

894
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: has like a big spiky front end that justin pales

895
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: him in the dick and he's dragged for like thirty miles. Yeah,

896
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: he could have died, but at least it wasn't like, oh,

897
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 2: he peacefully died and it sleeping fucking he do. He

898
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 2: does drown while on vacation. Oh that's great. Him.

899
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: Drowning is good. Drowning is you know, take it. It's

900
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: panic before death. It's yeah, he's at least scared. That's good.

901
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 2: And he's in bad health for years. He's very lonely.

902
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 2: He has a crush on this like child that he

903
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: has as his housekeeper, but he can't marry her. It's

904
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: he's yeah, he's a gross piece of shit. Fucking uh.

905
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 2: The other doctors, though, who had enabled his work and

906
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: been his colleagues and benefited from the research he did,

907
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 2: were not punished. Doctor Julius haller Vorden was a respected

908
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 2: neuropathologist and head of the histopathology department at the kaiserville

909
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 2: Helm Institute. He received hundreds of brains taken from euthanasia

910
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 2: vicctims UH and he also killed many children at the

911
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 2: Brandenburg Gordon Clinic where he worked and later removed their brains.

912
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 2: He described these specimens to a colleague as wonderful material,

913
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 2: feeble minded malformations and early infantile disease. After the war,

914
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 2: he had a neurological research position at the Max Planck

915
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 2: Institute in Berlin. At the Brain Research Institute in Frankfurt,

916
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,879
Speaker 2: haller Vorden's specimens, including brains from the euthanasia program, were

917
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 2: used by doctors until nineteen ninety when they were finally buried.

918
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 2: We had a happy ending. We had him drown in.

919
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 2: He was drowning, he was sad, couldn't fuck a child.

920
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: It was then you're like, here, there's some people who

921
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: got away with it.

922
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, because most of the people who enabled mangla pretty

923
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 2: much all did. There's doctor Fritz Lenz, who was a

924
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 2: medically trained geneticist. After nineteen thirty three, he was at

925
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 2: a section called in your notes. It was like bum

926
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 2: out man even more.

927
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, in case Matt gets happy at end, give him more.

928
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 2: Said yeah, yeah, get a little bit of extra sad.

929
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 2: He was the head of the Department of Racial Hygiene

930
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: at the Kaiserville Helm Institute and was one of the

931
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 2: architects of the Holocaust. From nineteen forty six to nineteen

932
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: fifty seven he was the director of the Institute for

933
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 2: Human Genetics at the University of Gottingen. He continued to

934
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 2: publish until the nineteen seventies, and of course our friend

935
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 2: ottmar Vaughan Verschuer as head of the kaiserville Helm Institute,

936
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 2: obviously he was responsible for a whole bunch of fucked

937
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 2: up shit post war. He was interned by the Allies

938
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty six. In nineteen fifty one he accepted

939
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 2: a position at the University of Munster, where he established

940
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 2: one of West Germany's largest genetic research centers. Verschuer retired

941
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty five and died in nineteen sixty nine.

942
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 2: I stopped listening after you said doctor douchebag drowned.

943
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the most depressing epilogue ever. Yeah, you

944
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: just freeze frames of all of the people.

945
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 2: It's not great. They all survived forever. I was into

946
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: the drown part. Yeah. I bet he shiped himself when

947
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 2: he was drowning too. We can all hope. So poop

948
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,879
Speaker 2: in the drink some of the shit water, I hope.

949
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 2: So that sounds he probably.

950
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: Vomited when he drank the shit water, and then he

951
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: ended up drinking more of the vomit shitwater, and he

952
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:20,240
Speaker 1: did it forever till he died.

953
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, I mean, let's let's all hope. Let's all

954
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 2: hope and pray. We're all hoping this and we're in this.

955
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 2: Let's not think too much about the fact that a

956
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: great deal of these race scientists continued working into the seventies,

957
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: and that a significant number of professional genetics researchers are

958
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 2: not only influenced of their work, but still believe in

959
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: aspects of racial science, which is still influential in genetic

960
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 2: research to this day. There's a fucked up history of

961
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: how much of this ship is still talked about. You

962
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 2: can you can look at the fucking Bell curve guy

963
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,720
Speaker 2: as an example, right, Yeah, Charles Murray, this is still

964
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 2: a problem. And part of why it's a problem is

965
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 2: that when the war ended, all of these doctors who

966
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 2: had spent their time at institutes but who had been

967
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: directly responsible for this kind of ship went rounded up

968
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 2: and shot in the back of the head, which is

969
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 2: what we should have done easily. It just just they

970
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 2: were right there. You had guns, Yeah, so many guns.

971
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,399
Speaker 2: You were literally the allies you could have you could

972
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 2: have gotten rid of them.

973
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is like, you know, fucking this is why

974
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 1: I don't trust white allies.

975
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 2: I don't know.

976
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, yeah, they should have just shot him and

977
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,240
Speaker 1: said now we have the Bell curve guy and still

978
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: exactly garbage. Seriously, but you know what we also sorry, no,

979
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say, it's just crazy how much of

980
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:50,760
Speaker 1: race science still exists today and just like how there's

981
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: it's just considered like part of like normal conservative thought.

982
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 2: You know, it's just because it always has been. It

983
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 2: always has been.

984
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: But it's just like so deeply ingrained in the ideology

985
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 1: that it's like to lose the race science part of

986
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: it is to lose like what holds it together.

987
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 2: It's like the glue. Yeah.

988
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 1: So that's why you know, whenever someone is like, well,

989
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm a fiscal conservative as if it

990
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: like makes them somehow like, well, I'm not a racist conservative,

991
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, your whole point of view is poison.

992
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Part of identifying as a fiscal conservative means

993
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 2: that you're okay caucusing with the conservatives. Who are you know,

994
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 2: the other kinds right exactly exactly, Yeah, you're you're It's

995
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: like you're just you're cool with a little bit of

996
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 2: race science.

997
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: Oh not me, no, no, not me personally, but uh

998
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 1: gladly just shepherd them into power and whatever will be

999
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 1: will be.

1000
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, kase Aras and not c I don't know. You

1001
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 2: gotta you want to plug anything.

1002
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: Matt, Absolutely, there's a you see, Philip Morris also makes

1003
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: nicotine gum products, and I want to plug those right now.

1004
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 2: Oh hell yeah, thank you, Philip Morris.

1005
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 1: You're trying to quit smoking, but you don't want to

1006
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: stop giving money to the people who got you addicted.

1007
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: Nicorette gum.

1008
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: It comes in four milligram and two milligram, but you

1009
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 1: can eat two of them. I also want to plug

1010
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:31,600
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1011
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,240
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1012
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,080
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1013
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1014
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: enjoy it if you enjoy me. I hope you do,

1015
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,440
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1016
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1017
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,719
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1018
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1019
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1020
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1021
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1022
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1023
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 2: Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our

1024
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1025
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