1 00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:24,130 Speaker 1: Pushkin. What's your favorite movie? I can't talk right now. 2 00:00:24,170 --> 00:00:25,050 Speaker 2: I'm going out for lunch. 3 00:00:25,489 --> 00:00:27,130 Speaker 1: Who are you going for lunch with? 4 00:00:28,650 --> 00:00:28,850 Speaker 3: What? 5 00:00:29,810 --> 00:00:33,129 Speaker 1: You stand still? You're The sound on the phone is terrible. Carol, 6 00:00:34,690 --> 00:00:38,370 Speaker 1: my ex girlfriend, Carol? Is it okay? Do you really care? 7 00:00:38,489 --> 00:00:41,890 Speaker 1: Let's say I said no. I don't you know it 8 00:00:41,930 --> 00:00:45,250 Speaker 1: affects me. You're not sorry? 9 00:00:45,450 --> 00:00:45,690 Speaker 4: Do you know? 10 00:00:45,769 --> 00:00:47,769 Speaker 1: There are many of your ex boyfriends who I was 11 00:00:47,810 --> 00:00:50,290 Speaker 1: fond of, and I don't keep in touch with them 12 00:00:50,330 --> 00:00:53,890 Speaker 1: because I felt like it would be a disloyalty to you. 13 00:00:53,970 --> 00:00:55,010 Speaker 1: Are you going to talk about me? 14 00:00:55,890 --> 00:00:58,090 Speaker 5: Of course? I don't want you to. 15 00:00:58,730 --> 00:01:01,010 Speaker 1: From here, all right, have a good lunch. What are 16 00:01:01,010 --> 00:01:01,610 Speaker 1: you gonna order? 17 00:01:01,930 --> 00:01:04,050 Speaker 5: I don't know what. Are we gonna know? 18 00:01:04,050 --> 00:01:13,770 Speaker 1: What we're gonna eat? From Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein 19 00:01:14,010 --> 00:01:29,890 Speaker 1: and this is Heavyweight Today's episode Tara. During my freshman year, 20 00:01:30,170 --> 00:01:33,170 Speaker 1: I wore black turtlenecks. They were meant to let people 21 00:01:33,250 --> 00:01:36,330 Speaker 1: know I was an artist. It was easier than actually 22 00:01:36,370 --> 00:01:39,810 Speaker 1: making art. I wore them so tight that the outline 23 00:01:39,850 --> 00:01:42,610 Speaker 1: of my Adam's apple was made visible when I swallowed 24 00:01:42,610 --> 00:01:47,170 Speaker 1: with excitement, and nothing excited me more than art. Hearing 25 00:01:47,210 --> 00:01:51,410 Speaker 1: words like kirisciro and trompe lois was enough to set 26 00:01:51,450 --> 00:01:54,530 Speaker 1: my adam's apple racing up and down, my turtleneck collar 27 00:01:54,970 --> 00:01:59,090 Speaker 1: like an otter trapped and a sleeping bag. Aside from 28 00:01:59,130 --> 00:02:03,090 Speaker 1: my own saliva, I also enjoyed swallowing espresso, and in 29 00:02:03,130 --> 00:02:06,850 Speaker 1: the back row of my experimental film appreciation class, I 30 00:02:06,930 --> 00:02:10,970 Speaker 1: swallowed oceans of the stuff. The back row was an 31 00:02:11,010 --> 00:02:14,410 Speaker 1: ideal place to sit, as it was closest to the exit, 32 00:02:15,169 --> 00:02:17,250 Speaker 1: so in case I had to get up and smoke 33 00:02:17,290 --> 00:02:20,650 Speaker 1: a ghitan or indul ja panic attack about my future, 34 00:02:21,290 --> 00:02:25,329 Speaker 1: I could do so unnoticed. Although I knew I was 35 00:02:25,370 --> 00:02:28,290 Speaker 1: an artist, I did not know what kind, and so 36 00:02:28,770 --> 00:02:32,970 Speaker 1: experimental film felt like a possible calling. I knew I 37 00:02:32,970 --> 00:02:35,650 Speaker 1: could never make a movie movie like Raiders of the 38 00:02:35,690 --> 00:02:38,810 Speaker 1: Lost Arc or Ishtar, but I could probably get away 39 00:02:38,810 --> 00:02:41,889 Speaker 1: with making weird stuff, the kind of films that played 40 00:02:41,890 --> 00:02:44,930 Speaker 1: on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation at three in the morning 41 00:02:45,210 --> 00:02:48,010 Speaker 1: and prompted my father to demand after several minutes in 42 00:02:48,770 --> 00:02:51,570 Speaker 1: what the hell happened at a plot, so point a 43 00:02:51,610 --> 00:02:54,489 Speaker 1: camera at a sleeping person for ten hours. I could 44 00:02:54,530 --> 00:03:02,290 Speaker 1: totally do that in the end, though I only ever 45 00:03:02,330 --> 00:03:06,170 Speaker 1: made one single film, a Super eight short that involved 46 00:03:06,210 --> 00:03:10,050 Speaker 1: montages of swirling fans and clouds drifting across the sky 47 00:03:10,490 --> 00:03:13,210 Speaker 1: and speed it up motion. It was all set to 48 00:03:13,250 --> 00:03:17,530 Speaker 1: the progressively jazzy strains of Pat Metheni's seminal fusion album 49 00:03:17,810 --> 00:03:22,130 Speaker 1: as Falls Wichita, So Falls, Wichita Falls. I named the 50 00:03:22,170 --> 00:03:27,090 Speaker 1: film in Sensito. I can no longer recall why, but 51 00:03:27,170 --> 00:03:31,290 Speaker 1: I still loved watching movies in class Window Water, Baby Moving, 52 00:03:31,530 --> 00:03:35,170 Speaker 1: in which the director filmed his wife giving birth, and Mothlight, 53 00:03:35,370 --> 00:03:38,610 Speaker 1: which looked like a white, scratchy film strip. But of 54 00:03:38,650 --> 00:03:41,930 Speaker 1: all the films in film appreciation class that I appreciated, 55 00:03:42,530 --> 00:03:45,330 Speaker 1: there's a scene from one video that I still think 56 00:03:45,370 --> 00:03:49,330 Speaker 1: about twenty five years later. The premise of the video 57 00:03:49,450 --> 00:03:53,050 Speaker 1: was this. In nineteen eighty six, the director put an 58 00:03:53,050 --> 00:03:55,730 Speaker 1: ad in the village voice, asking people who were angry 59 00:03:56,090 --> 00:03:58,650 Speaker 1: to come down to her studio and tell her why. 60 00:03:59,650 --> 00:04:03,810 Speaker 1: The resulting video was simply titled Anger. I've never been 61 00:04:03,850 --> 00:04:06,370 Speaker 1: able to find it again, but I remember it clearly. 62 00:04:06,970 --> 00:04:10,210 Speaker 1: There were ranting punks, a murder who bragged about all 63 00:04:10,210 --> 00:04:13,770 Speaker 1: the murders he'd committed, and victims of violence who laid 64 00:04:13,770 --> 00:04:17,169 Speaker 1: out their plans for revenge. But the person I still 65 00:04:17,210 --> 00:04:19,969 Speaker 1: think about all these years later is someone who didn't 66 00:04:19,969 --> 00:04:23,969 Speaker 1: say anything at all. A little girl. She couldn't have 67 00:04:24,010 --> 00:04:27,089 Speaker 1: been more than eight or nine. She sat silently watching 68 00:04:27,089 --> 00:04:31,210 Speaker 1: her parent, who described herself as being intersext weep tears 69 00:04:31,250 --> 00:04:34,289 Speaker 1: of anger and frustration over how hard her life was. 70 00:04:35,609 --> 00:04:39,330 Speaker 1: Then the little girl, with her chin raised, stared directly 71 00:04:39,369 --> 00:04:42,609 Speaker 1: into the camera, And this is what I remember so well, 72 00:04:43,289 --> 00:04:45,890 Speaker 1: meeting her gaze and how complicit I felt to be 73 00:04:45,969 --> 00:04:49,170 Speaker 1: watching her. Why would the woman have brought along a 74 00:04:49,250 --> 00:04:51,969 Speaker 1: child that day to hear all this? From the look 75 00:04:51,969 --> 00:04:53,969 Speaker 1: on the little girl's face, it was hard to tell 76 00:04:53,969 --> 00:04:56,890 Speaker 1: what affect these words were having on her. And over 77 00:04:56,929 --> 00:04:59,650 Speaker 1: the past twenty five years, every once in a while, 78 00:05:00,130 --> 00:05:02,569 Speaker 1: I find myself worrying about what might have become of 79 00:05:02,609 --> 00:05:06,210 Speaker 1: this little girl, and wondering if maybe finding her would 80 00:05:06,210 --> 00:05:12,890 Speaker 1: put my mind to rest. I've never been able to 81 00:05:12,929 --> 00:05:15,210 Speaker 1: talk about it with anyone, because no one I know 82 00:05:15,450 --> 00:05:18,609 Speaker 1: has ever seen the video. Lately, I've been trying to 83 00:05:18,650 --> 00:05:22,089 Speaker 1: find it online, but because I don't remember the director's name, 84 00:05:22,330 --> 00:05:25,770 Speaker 1: it's been virtually impossible to google. When I punch in 85 00:05:25,890 --> 00:05:29,370 Speaker 1: anger plus video plus eighties, my search yields a heavy 86 00:05:29,450 --> 00:05:33,330 Speaker 1: metal music video for a song called Anger. In it, 87 00:05:33,650 --> 00:05:37,250 Speaker 1: a shirtless viking with a spiral perm wields a cardboard sword. 88 00:05:44,609 --> 00:05:48,969 Speaker 1: My middle name is Stewart. I email old film school friends, 89 00:05:49,169 --> 00:05:51,810 Speaker 1: but none of them know what I'm talking about. Then 90 00:05:51,849 --> 00:05:55,810 Speaker 1: one night I hear back from a retired professor. God, yes, 91 00:05:55,929 --> 00:05:59,409 Speaker 1: he writes, even with failing memory, I do believe I 92 00:05:59,489 --> 00:06:02,249 Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. He sends a link to 93 00:06:02,289 --> 00:06:05,290 Speaker 1: the video on YouTube, where it sits with few views 94 00:06:05,330 --> 00:06:09,250 Speaker 1: and not a single comment. I press play, and I'm shocked, 95 00:06:09,650 --> 00:06:12,890 Speaker 1: after all these years by how much I remember. For 96 00:06:13,010 --> 00:06:18,370 Speaker 1: all you vidiots out there, this one's for you. Step off, yuppies, 97 00:06:18,409 --> 00:06:21,169 Speaker 1: step off. It starts with a group of skinheads and 98 00:06:21,210 --> 00:06:24,369 Speaker 1: punks giving the camera the finger. Back in the eighties, 99 00:06:24,650 --> 00:06:27,969 Speaker 1: giving a camera the finger was a big thing, junk, 100 00:06:28,089 --> 00:06:31,330 Speaker 1: and I'm proud of it. There's the wrongfully accused police 101 00:06:31,330 --> 00:06:33,929 Speaker 1: detective forced out of his unit amid scandal. 102 00:06:34,130 --> 00:06:36,769 Speaker 3: I'm angry enough right now that if I saw something 103 00:06:36,810 --> 00:06:39,890 Speaker 3: happening in the street possibility, I wouldn't do a goddamn 104 00:06:39,890 --> 00:06:42,130 Speaker 3: thing about it, because it's done on my fucking business. 105 00:06:42,369 --> 00:06:44,570 Speaker 3: You let another guy handle it. I was never liked 106 00:06:44,570 --> 00:06:47,769 Speaker 3: that I loved what I was doing. Now I wouldn't 107 00:06:47,810 --> 00:06:48,250 Speaker 3: do shit. 108 00:06:49,049 --> 00:06:52,409 Speaker 1: There's the ethereal young woman wearing a pink sweatshirt with ducks, 109 00:06:52,729 --> 00:06:55,450 Speaker 1: who speaks of being attacked at knife point and how 110 00:06:55,489 --> 00:06:57,650 Speaker 1: a month later her boyfriend left her. 111 00:06:58,130 --> 00:07:00,729 Speaker 6: Everything you do to someone does eventually come back to 112 00:07:00,890 --> 00:07:04,489 Speaker 6: everything you do. All actions have reactions, And if I didn't. 113 00:07:04,330 --> 00:07:06,049 Speaker 1: Believe that, I would have kissed the detrain a long 114 00:07:06,049 --> 00:07:09,610 Speaker 1: time ago. There's the artist couple, once in love but 115 00:07:09,730 --> 00:07:12,690 Speaker 1: now filled with raw hatred for each other, who, because 116 00:07:12,770 --> 00:07:15,809 Speaker 1: of the realities of Manhattan real estate, were forced to 117 00:07:15,850 --> 00:07:18,770 Speaker 1: live as roommates in a small artist's. 118 00:07:18,410 --> 00:07:22,129 Speaker 7: Last night's Can I speak now? 119 00:07:22,290 --> 00:07:23,330 Speaker 2: Can I please speak? 120 00:07:23,489 --> 00:07:24,930 Speaker 1: What are you asking permission for? 121 00:07:24,970 --> 00:07:27,010 Speaker 8: Yourn? 122 00:07:29,010 --> 00:07:32,050 Speaker 1: Then the scene I've not been able to forget, the 123 00:07:32,090 --> 00:07:33,850 Speaker 1: weeping woman and her little girl. 124 00:07:35,489 --> 00:07:38,810 Speaker 7: I went to an drowcinologist, and I found out too 125 00:07:38,970 --> 00:07:41,290 Speaker 7: many of the tests that they did that I was 126 00:07:41,330 --> 00:07:44,249 Speaker 7: biologically a woman and a man at the same time 127 00:07:44,850 --> 00:07:45,890 Speaker 7: I was intersexed. 128 00:07:46,290 --> 00:07:48,890 Speaker 1: In her powder blue knee length skirt and pearl necklace, 129 00:07:49,210 --> 00:07:51,370 Speaker 1: she looks to be out of an entirely different era, 130 00:07:52,050 --> 00:07:54,210 Speaker 1: like a nun from the fifties. On her day off. 131 00:07:55,010 --> 00:07:57,369 Speaker 1: She sits on the stool wringing her hands. 132 00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:03,010 Speaker 7: After two years of constantly crying night after night after night, 133 00:08:04,010 --> 00:08:08,769 Speaker 7: and my wife being upset, and my child being upset, 134 00:08:09,890 --> 00:08:17,610 Speaker 7: and the constant harassment from people on the job, I 135 00:08:17,730 --> 00:08:26,010 Speaker 7: became so helpless, and finally, after seeing many doctors to 136 00:08:26,050 --> 00:08:29,770 Speaker 7: try to have some way to have it corrected, it 137 00:08:30,530 --> 00:08:34,650 Speaker 7: was an impossibility, and it was a question of being 138 00:08:34,690 --> 00:08:39,930 Speaker 7: a circus for the society or choosing to be a woman. 139 00:08:41,690 --> 00:08:41,970 Speaker 3: And I. 140 00:08:44,970 --> 00:08:48,050 Speaker 4: Thought at that time that it was much. 141 00:08:48,610 --> 00:08:54,570 Speaker 1: Easier for me to be a woman. As she speaks, 142 00:08:54,930 --> 00:08:57,809 Speaker 1: the camera pans to the right, and sitting beside her 143 00:08:58,290 --> 00:09:01,890 Speaker 1: is the little girl. She's wearing a purple dress, her 144 00:09:01,930 --> 00:09:05,410 Speaker 1: long brown hair pulled back with a headband. She sits 145 00:09:05,450 --> 00:09:08,890 Speaker 1: there as though absorbing radiation. It's hard to tell what 146 00:09:08,970 --> 00:09:20,770 Speaker 1: she thinking. Yeah, some of what the woman says is 147 00:09:20,770 --> 00:09:23,930 Speaker 1: hard to follow. She doesn't want sex reassignment, but she 148 00:09:23,970 --> 00:09:25,250 Speaker 1: doesn't want to live in the middle. 149 00:09:26,610 --> 00:09:31,330 Speaker 4: I know about I'm not married to my wife anymore. 150 00:09:31,370 --> 00:09:36,170 Speaker 4: We still live together as sisters the child, but it's 151 00:09:36,170 --> 00:09:39,010 Speaker 4: a smaller than nine by twelve roup for three of us. 152 00:09:45,370 --> 00:09:48,490 Speaker 4: I think that I've worked so hard. 153 00:09:48,650 --> 00:09:51,010 Speaker 8: To try to make a sing sense out of my life, 154 00:09:52,210 --> 00:10:08,170 Speaker 8: only to wind up at the bottom. 155 00:10:08,170 --> 00:10:11,650 Speaker 1: Seeing the video still makes me feel as powerless as 156 00:10:11,650 --> 00:10:14,930 Speaker 1: it did all those years ago. What had their life 157 00:10:14,970 --> 00:10:18,210 Speaker 1: been like in that nine x twelve room? And where 158 00:10:18,610 --> 00:10:19,330 Speaker 1: was the little girl? 159 00:10:19,410 --> 00:10:19,610 Speaker 5: Now? 160 00:10:20,530 --> 00:10:24,010 Speaker 1: The video, at least the online version, ends just before 161 00:10:24,050 --> 00:10:26,690 Speaker 1: the credits begin, so there's no way to know who 162 00:10:26,730 --> 00:10:29,890 Speaker 1: the weeping woman and the little girl were. But the 163 00:10:29,890 --> 00:10:33,890 Speaker 1: director's name was there, Maxie Cohen, And it turns out 164 00:10:34,130 --> 00:10:40,770 Speaker 1: she's not hard to find. Okay, oh hi, it's Jonathan. 165 00:10:43,810 --> 00:10:48,290 Speaker 1: I didn't get that, but uh okay. Maxie's place was 166 00:10:48,370 --> 00:10:51,610 Speaker 1: just a subway ride away. It turns out that Maxie 167 00:10:51,650 --> 00:10:54,290 Speaker 1: hasn't thought about the movie in years and was surprised 168 00:10:54,290 --> 00:10:58,530 Speaker 1: by my interest. I guess I assumed an experimental video 169 00:10:58,570 --> 00:11:01,770 Speaker 1: director's place would be piled from Florida ceiling with towers 170 00:11:01,810 --> 00:11:06,370 Speaker 1: of alt publications, possess a bathtub overflowing with bicycle parts 171 00:11:06,370 --> 00:11:12,090 Speaker 1: for future art projects, you know, gritty. But Maxie's place 172 00:11:12,130 --> 00:11:16,130 Speaker 1: is fancy. I'm greeted at the door by young interns 173 00:11:16,130 --> 00:11:18,130 Speaker 1: who inform me that Maxie will be with me in 174 00:11:18,170 --> 00:11:22,810 Speaker 1: a moment. In a moment, well, la di da. It 175 00:11:22,850 --> 00:11:26,130 Speaker 1: seems I've caught them just before lunch in the kitchenette, 176 00:11:26,210 --> 00:11:29,650 Speaker 1: a meal of kle and beats is being prepared. Maybe 177 00:11:29,690 --> 00:11:33,130 Speaker 1: I should have become an experimental film director after all. Oh, 178 00:11:35,610 --> 00:11:38,250 Speaker 1: Maxie still lives and works in the same Soho studio 179 00:11:38,370 --> 00:11:40,450 Speaker 1: where she filled Anger thirty years ago. 180 00:11:40,970 --> 00:11:42,850 Speaker 6: Well, at first they set up a studio somewhere else 181 00:11:42,850 --> 00:11:44,450 Speaker 6: because I didn't know if I wanted all these angry 182 00:11:44,490 --> 00:11:47,370 Speaker 6: people in my house. But yeah, I just asked people, 183 00:11:47,450 --> 00:11:49,610 Speaker 6: what made the mank what were they angry about? That 184 00:11:50,090 --> 00:11:53,170 Speaker 6: was really all I asked. And I think the people 185 00:11:53,210 --> 00:11:56,329 Speaker 6: that really responded were people who were deeply troubled. 186 00:11:57,170 --> 00:11:58,970 Speaker 1: I asked her if she's ever followed up with any 187 00:11:59,010 --> 00:12:00,290 Speaker 1: of them, Not. 188 00:12:01,810 --> 00:12:05,930 Speaker 6: Really, except about a year later or sometime later. Maybe 189 00:12:05,970 --> 00:12:08,929 Speaker 6: it's a year or two later. The commissioning editor from 190 00:12:09,130 --> 00:12:12,970 Speaker 6: Channel four in London saw the piece and he was 191 00:12:13,010 --> 00:12:16,010 Speaker 6: so distraught that I had made this film. And I 192 00:12:16,090 --> 00:12:19,410 Speaker 6: remember the producer from Channel four thinking I was totally 193 00:12:19,410 --> 00:12:22,490 Speaker 6: irresponsible that I hadn't kept He wanted to know what 194 00:12:22,530 --> 00:12:23,730 Speaker 6: happened to that little girl. 195 00:12:25,210 --> 00:12:29,890 Speaker 1: This sound is an audible gasp. I hadn't told Maxie 196 00:12:29,890 --> 00:12:32,329 Speaker 1: that the reason I'd come to see her was specifically 197 00:12:32,370 --> 00:12:35,850 Speaker 1: to ask about the little girl. And let's back up. 198 00:12:41,170 --> 00:12:42,770 Speaker 1: I have Maxie go back to the day of the 199 00:12:42,810 --> 00:12:45,770 Speaker 1: shoot and tell me what she remembers about the little girl. 200 00:12:46,810 --> 00:12:49,170 Speaker 6: She just looked at her face while her mother talked, 201 00:12:49,650 --> 00:12:56,690 Speaker 6: her father talked. It all went in and I was 202 00:12:56,810 --> 00:13:02,330 Speaker 6: really concerned about her hearing all of this, but her 203 00:13:02,370 --> 00:13:05,970 Speaker 6: parent said no, no, no, keep her in the room 204 00:13:06,050 --> 00:13:09,290 Speaker 6: like she was just fine there. Now, this is this 205 00:13:09,410 --> 00:13:11,490 Speaker 6: is the only person that I did not talk to 206 00:13:12,290 --> 00:13:16,570 Speaker 6: before I shot. And I don't even know how it happened, 207 00:13:16,770 --> 00:13:19,250 Speaker 6: because all of a sudden, somebody showed up on location 208 00:13:20,330 --> 00:13:25,290 Speaker 6: the day that we were shooting, and I had no 209 00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:26,370 Speaker 6: idea what I was in for. 210 00:13:27,370 --> 00:13:31,410 Speaker 1: So you said that it was a guy from the 211 00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:35,570 Speaker 1: BBC who got in touch with you. Was curious about 212 00:13:35,890 --> 00:13:36,930 Speaker 1: this little girl. 213 00:13:37,290 --> 00:13:43,530 Speaker 6: He was so disdrawt after watching it, and he why 214 00:13:43,570 --> 00:13:45,730 Speaker 6: didn't I keep up with her and what has happened 215 00:13:45,730 --> 00:13:50,530 Speaker 6: to her? And really made me feel that it was 216 00:13:50,570 --> 00:13:52,170 Speaker 6: my responsibility to do that. 217 00:13:52,490 --> 00:13:54,010 Speaker 1: How long ago was this that he got in touch 218 00:13:54,050 --> 00:13:54,250 Speaker 1: with you? 219 00:13:55,130 --> 00:13:57,090 Speaker 6: Oh, this was maybe a year or two after it 220 00:13:57,130 --> 00:13:57,730 Speaker 6: was broadcast. 221 00:13:57,770 --> 00:13:59,730 Speaker 1: It was still the late eadies, was still the late eadies. 222 00:13:59,770 --> 00:14:08,250 Speaker 6: Okay, So I tracked her down. 223 00:14:05,810 --> 00:14:08,450 Speaker 1: And what Maxie learned wasn't very much. The woman was 224 00:14:08,490 --> 00:14:11,170 Speaker 1: getting used to wearing glouses, and the little girl had 225 00:14:11,210 --> 00:14:14,170 Speaker 1: just gotten a bicycle. And at the time, how did 226 00:14:14,170 --> 00:14:17,370 Speaker 1: you get into touch with them? 227 00:14:17,810 --> 00:14:19,890 Speaker 6: I guess I have their phone number, which I could 228 00:14:19,890 --> 00:14:22,730 Speaker 6: still possibly have if anybody still has the same phone 229 00:14:22,770 --> 00:14:24,410 Speaker 6: as they had in nineteen eighty six. 230 00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:28,450 Speaker 1: Yeah, thirty years later, we don't even have phones anymore. 231 00:14:28,690 --> 00:14:30,050 Speaker 6: Right, that's true. 232 00:14:31,290 --> 00:14:32,530 Speaker 1: But you have that information. 233 00:14:32,970 --> 00:14:34,330 Speaker 6: I probably do somewhere. 234 00:14:34,570 --> 00:14:37,810 Speaker 1: Because you want to track her down. I don't really 235 00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:41,050 Speaker 1: want to. Yeah. When I saw it all those years ago, 236 00:14:41,170 --> 00:14:45,730 Speaker 1: she she stayed with me. 237 00:14:46,930 --> 00:14:50,410 Speaker 6: Yeah, well, maybe next week I'll have the time to look. 238 00:14:50,690 --> 00:14:51,770 Speaker 1: You still have that stuff? 239 00:14:51,890 --> 00:14:54,370 Speaker 6: I might? I might, I do tend to. 240 00:14:54,610 --> 00:14:58,330 Speaker 1: I mean I went through one cleaning uh huh. 241 00:14:57,570 --> 00:14:59,490 Speaker 6: And I can't remember if I got rid of it 242 00:14:59,610 --> 00:15:00,850 Speaker 6: or kept it so I could look. 243 00:15:02,330 --> 00:15:05,610 Speaker 1: Is that a big undertaking to find it? Yeah? 244 00:15:05,850 --> 00:15:07,890 Speaker 6: All right, well let's see. Maybe if let's see what 245 00:15:07,930 --> 00:15:10,450 Speaker 6: time it is, maybe we can no, I could go down. 246 00:15:10,450 --> 00:15:10,970 Speaker 1: I could go down. 247 00:15:11,010 --> 00:15:12,530 Speaker 6: We could go down, and I could see if it's 248 00:15:12,570 --> 00:15:13,130 Speaker 6: easier or not. 249 00:15:25,770 --> 00:15:37,810 Speaker 1: The door onto there's a lesson here in the importance 250 00:15:37,850 --> 00:15:40,370 Speaker 1: of archiving, we would stay to New York. You know, 251 00:15:40,410 --> 00:15:43,490 Speaker 1: where do you put it all? Maxie's basement locker is 252 00:15:43,490 --> 00:15:45,810 Speaker 1: filled from top to bottom, and a thirty year old 253 00:15:45,810 --> 00:15:48,490 Speaker 1: phone number unless it's been inscribed on a block of 254 00:15:48,530 --> 00:15:52,130 Speaker 1: asbestos and Maxi's up for a cleansing fire, doesn't seem 255 00:15:52,210 --> 00:15:56,690 Speaker 1: likely to be found. Nevertheless, we go through boxes, some 256 00:15:56,890 --> 00:15:57,850 Speaker 1: marked and some not. 257 00:15:58,410 --> 00:16:00,090 Speaker 6: You know, now that I just think about it, the 258 00:16:00,130 --> 00:16:04,330 Speaker 6: releases would have people's names and numbers on them, right. 259 00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:08,690 Speaker 1: Yeah, So we search through folder after folder for release 260 00:16:08,730 --> 00:16:12,290 Speaker 1: forms signed in nineteen eighty six. It isn't looking hopeful, 261 00:16:12,770 --> 00:16:13,330 Speaker 1: but then. 262 00:16:13,330 --> 00:16:14,170 Speaker 6: There's so much stuff. 263 00:16:14,170 --> 00:16:16,170 Speaker 1: This brings back anger. 264 00:16:16,970 --> 00:16:18,770 Speaker 6: Oh maybe here's are pieces. 265 00:16:18,810 --> 00:16:22,930 Speaker 1: Okay, we even find the information for those yuppie hating punks. 266 00:16:23,290 --> 00:16:25,410 Speaker 1: Such neat handwriting for punks. 267 00:16:25,890 --> 00:16:29,050 Speaker 6: Yeah, so the woman whose name is Laura, that's the 268 00:16:29,090 --> 00:16:30,890 Speaker 6: woman who's intersext. 269 00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:35,330 Speaker 1: Is there a phone number there? There is? Wow? This 270 00:16:35,450 --> 00:16:45,050 Speaker 1: sound wow is the sound of my amazement. Maxi gives 271 00:16:45,050 --> 00:16:49,610 Speaker 1: me the numbers of everyone in the video. The number 272 00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:52,290 Speaker 1: you dialed is not in servant. The number you dialed 273 00:16:52,410 --> 00:16:56,010 Speaker 1: is not in service. The number you have dialed is unallocated. 274 00:16:56,690 --> 00:17:01,210 Speaker 1: I love that unallocated guy. Unsurprisingly, every single number is 275 00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:05,690 Speaker 1: disconnected except for one. 276 00:17:07,810 --> 00:17:08,129 Speaker 5: Hello. 277 00:17:08,649 --> 00:17:13,290 Speaker 1: Hello, is there a Laura there, Robert. No, a Laura. 278 00:17:14,889 --> 00:17:16,090 Speaker 1: That's who I'm calling for. 279 00:17:18,250 --> 00:17:25,169 Speaker 5: That's you. No, I'm calling on now Hello. 280 00:17:25,490 --> 00:17:33,009 Speaker 1: Yes, Hello, I was looking for a Laura. Oh that's you. Yes, Wow, Okay. 281 00:17:33,129 --> 00:17:37,409 Speaker 1: My name is Jonathan Goldstein. And I watched a short 282 00:17:37,449 --> 00:17:40,970 Speaker 1: movie that you were in from many years ago, from 283 00:17:41,010 --> 00:17:41,770 Speaker 1: the late eighties. 284 00:17:42,929 --> 00:17:45,770 Speaker 5: It's possible that. I mean, it's like I'm seventy six 285 00:17:45,889 --> 00:17:46,450 Speaker 5: years old now. 286 00:17:47,609 --> 00:17:50,090 Speaker 1: Well, it makes sense because I think in the in 287 00:17:50,129 --> 00:17:53,529 Speaker 1: the short film that I saw, you were forty or so. 288 00:17:55,090 --> 00:17:57,689 Speaker 1: As I continue to talk about the video, it doesn't 289 00:17:57,689 --> 00:18:00,929 Speaker 1: seem to evoke any memory. For the duration of the conversation. 290 00:18:01,369 --> 00:18:03,850 Speaker 1: Laura acts like getting a call about an interview from 291 00:18:03,889 --> 00:18:06,810 Speaker 1: thirty years ago is all in a day's work, because 292 00:18:06,850 --> 00:18:09,570 Speaker 1: I called you just now thinking there's no way that 293 00:18:09,649 --> 00:18:11,649 Speaker 1: this person is still going to be at this phone number. 294 00:18:12,209 --> 00:18:15,409 Speaker 5: Yep. People are still live in the same place too. 295 00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:20,729 Speaker 1: You're kidding. No, what isn't the same is that Laura 296 00:18:21,169 --> 00:18:22,850 Speaker 1: is now Robert again? 297 00:18:23,369 --> 00:18:23,530 Speaker 3: Yeah? 298 00:18:23,609 --> 00:18:25,530 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, I just life keeps going 299 00:18:25,570 --> 00:18:27,330 Speaker 5: on and on. I just you know, I go with 300 00:18:27,449 --> 00:18:29,249 Speaker 5: the flow of things. And that's just. 301 00:18:31,090 --> 00:18:34,249 Speaker 1: Wait a second, because okay, in that movie, you had 302 00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:36,130 Speaker 1: said that you had made the decision to live as 303 00:18:36,129 --> 00:18:37,169 Speaker 1: a as a woman. 304 00:18:37,770 --> 00:18:41,330 Speaker 5: Right, and now I just now I live as a male. 305 00:18:41,369 --> 00:18:45,570 Speaker 1: Mall when did you when? When did that change occur? 306 00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:50,529 Speaker 5: Well, that was maybe a couple of years ago already. 307 00:18:51,129 --> 00:18:52,969 Speaker 1: It was only a couple of years ago that you 308 00:18:53,169 --> 00:18:54,129 Speaker 1: that you why. 309 00:18:55,490 --> 00:18:57,769 Speaker 5: I don't know, because that's the way my life was, 310 00:18:57,810 --> 00:19:00,369 Speaker 5: and I, you know, things keep changing and everything, and 311 00:19:00,409 --> 00:19:03,809 Speaker 5: I just made certain decisions and that was it. 312 00:19:05,250 --> 00:19:07,850 Speaker 1: Let's recall that this question of gender was once so 313 00:19:07,929 --> 00:19:11,770 Speaker 1: crushing that Robert couldn't even talk about it without breaking down, 314 00:19:12,090 --> 00:19:15,529 Speaker 1: and now he seems surprisingly at peace. You showed up 315 00:19:16,369 --> 00:19:22,130 Speaker 1: with your daughter, do you remember, Well, not. 316 00:19:22,169 --> 00:19:24,889 Speaker 5: That I don't even know, but it's possible. 317 00:19:25,609 --> 00:19:29,050 Speaker 1: You were sitting on a stool talking to the you know, 318 00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:30,450 Speaker 1: facing the camera, and. 319 00:19:30,409 --> 00:19:34,409 Speaker 5: It sounds similar. You know, we were talking. I'm talking 320 00:19:34,449 --> 00:19:40,369 Speaker 5: to somebody on the phone, my wife. 321 00:19:40,449 --> 00:19:46,969 Speaker 1: Okay, Hello, yes, hello, Hi, I was just I was 322 00:19:47,490 --> 00:19:51,129 Speaker 1: My name is Jonathan, Yeah, And I saw this movie 323 00:19:51,250 --> 00:19:54,609 Speaker 1: that Laura was in from the late eighties. 324 00:19:54,730 --> 00:19:57,689 Speaker 9: I don't know nothing about that. But okay, so what 325 00:19:57,850 --> 00:19:58,529 Speaker 9: is this about. 326 00:19:58,570 --> 00:20:02,930 Speaker 1: Then he came to the movie with your daughter, I 327 00:20:02,970 --> 00:20:06,769 Speaker 1: think when he when he went to be interviewed, and 328 00:20:06,810 --> 00:20:10,889 Speaker 1: she sat beside him while he was telling his story. 329 00:20:11,449 --> 00:20:12,770 Speaker 9: This was thirty years ago. 330 00:20:12,689 --> 00:20:13,850 Speaker 1: Almost thirty years ago. 331 00:20:14,530 --> 00:20:21,290 Speaker 9: Holy smoke. Oh wow, I don't know anything about this village. 332 00:20:22,970 --> 00:20:27,770 Speaker 1: He was talking at the time about having to decide 333 00:20:27,810 --> 00:20:30,209 Speaker 1: with his doctor to become a woman. 334 00:20:30,730 --> 00:20:35,249 Speaker 9: Yes, yes, somehow it didn't you know, he decided not 335 00:20:35,330 --> 00:20:37,689 Speaker 9: to not to do it. He changed That's why he 336 00:20:37,770 --> 00:20:39,169 Speaker 9: changed his name back to Robert. 337 00:20:40,050 --> 00:20:42,330 Speaker 1: And do you remember why he decided to change back. 338 00:20:42,689 --> 00:20:44,890 Speaker 9: Well, he would get well, no, he would get up 339 00:20:44,889 --> 00:20:49,970 Speaker 9: and age and and he rather attracted two men. 340 00:20:50,129 --> 00:20:52,289 Speaker 1: And you guys, you guys are still married after all 341 00:20:52,330 --> 00:20:52,690 Speaker 1: these years. 342 00:20:53,010 --> 00:20:55,889 Speaker 9: We're still married. Yes. Yeah. 343 00:20:55,929 --> 00:21:00,450 Speaker 1: And nowadays, people, some of what he was talking about is. 344 00:21:00,449 --> 00:21:04,410 Speaker 9: More Yeah, now it's more open than it was, like, uh, 345 00:21:05,250 --> 00:21:07,770 Speaker 9: thirty years ago. Now it's more open now. 346 00:21:07,970 --> 00:21:08,250 Speaker 6: Yeah. 347 00:21:09,530 --> 00:21:12,250 Speaker 9: You know what that you can't change the human mind. 348 00:21:13,290 --> 00:21:15,770 Speaker 9: You can't. You can never. You can't reverse the human mind. 349 00:21:15,889 --> 00:21:17,969 Speaker 9: If you're trying to fight the human mind and forget 350 00:21:17,970 --> 00:21:24,650 Speaker 9: about it, you can go crazy. 351 00:21:25,609 --> 00:21:28,010 Speaker 1: I talk with Robert's wife for a while, and eventually 352 00:21:28,050 --> 00:21:30,770 Speaker 1: ask her what her daughter's name is, and she says 353 00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:53,409 Speaker 1: it's Tara. After the break, Tara, I take out Tara's number, 354 00:21:53,970 --> 00:21:56,850 Speaker 1: but before picking up the phone, I find myself worrying 355 00:21:56,889 --> 00:21:59,809 Speaker 1: about what to say. After all the years of wondering 356 00:21:59,810 --> 00:22:02,289 Speaker 1: what had become of her, now is my chance to 357 00:22:02,330 --> 00:22:06,489 Speaker 1: find out. All during our conversation, I keep just wanting 358 00:22:06,530 --> 00:22:10,010 Speaker 1: to say, how are you? Are you okay? But such 359 00:22:10,090 --> 00:22:12,369 Speaker 1: questions are hard to come right out and ask, even 360 00:22:12,409 --> 00:22:16,369 Speaker 1: to friends and family, let alone a perfect stranger. Tara 361 00:22:16,449 --> 00:22:18,570 Speaker 1: tells me she had no idea that such a video 362 00:22:18,649 --> 00:22:21,570 Speaker 1: even existed, and is reluctant to talk about that time. 363 00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:25,049 Speaker 1: But maybe she's a bit curious too, because when I 364 00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:27,969 Speaker 1: ask if we can meet up, although she's hesitant, she 365 00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:31,729 Speaker 1: says yes. I suggest meeting at a quiet place, and 366 00:22:31,810 --> 00:22:34,689 Speaker 1: since you can't talk at libraries and a cemetery would 367 00:22:34,689 --> 00:22:38,010 Speaker 1: have seemed plain creepy, I rented the conference room of 368 00:22:38,050 --> 00:22:41,929 Speaker 1: a local chain hotel. Oh, here we go. So Tara 369 00:22:42,090 --> 00:22:45,009 Speaker 1: liked the idea, but when she shows up, she seems 370 00:22:45,010 --> 00:22:47,409 Speaker 1: a little nervous. And so there's water. 371 00:22:47,730 --> 00:22:48,730 Speaker 2: I have my own water. 372 00:22:48,770 --> 00:22:50,769 Speaker 1: It's okay, And I do my best to put her 373 00:22:50,810 --> 00:22:59,249 Speaker 1: at ease. Okay, so yes, but I still somehow feel 374 00:22:59,290 --> 00:23:03,490 Speaker 1: like I'm selling time shares in Orlando and this for you, right, Yeah. 375 00:23:05,090 --> 00:23:08,129 Speaker 1: Tara's now in her late thirties but looks younger. She 376 00:23:08,169 --> 00:23:10,450 Speaker 1: has an open and kind face and still has long, 377 00:23:10,449 --> 00:23:13,090 Speaker 1: straight brown hair. She looks a lot like the little 378 00:23:13,129 --> 00:23:15,930 Speaker 1: girl from the video, and as we talk, her face 379 00:23:15,970 --> 00:23:19,570 Speaker 1: seems to toggle between adult and child. She showed up 380 00:23:19,609 --> 00:23:21,609 Speaker 1: with her husband and some photographs. 381 00:23:22,330 --> 00:23:27,609 Speaker 2: This was my first communion, and this is my father 382 00:23:29,169 --> 00:23:30,649 Speaker 2: just as a woman. 383 00:23:31,369 --> 00:23:35,970 Speaker 1: He's looking like how you would put it, like kind 384 00:23:35,970 --> 00:23:38,369 Speaker 1: of like a like a fifties housewife or something. 385 00:23:38,570 --> 00:23:38,769 Speaker 8: You know. 386 00:23:39,290 --> 00:23:43,090 Speaker 2: That was his mental picture of what, you know, he 387 00:23:43,250 --> 00:23:46,009 Speaker 2: wanted to look like as a woman. He grew up 388 00:23:46,010 --> 00:23:51,250 Speaker 2: in an orphanage, raised by the nuns that molded. 389 00:23:51,050 --> 00:23:53,570 Speaker 1: His idea could look like. 390 00:23:53,689 --> 00:23:59,369 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And I told all my friends that 391 00:23:59,449 --> 00:24:04,929 Speaker 2: he was my aunt. I understood the situation, but I 392 00:24:05,010 --> 00:24:08,129 Speaker 2: never knew what to say. I was always walking on 393 00:24:08,169 --> 00:24:11,330 Speaker 2: eggshells because it was like do I say this? Do 394 00:24:11,409 --> 00:24:12,129 Speaker 2: I not say this? 395 00:24:12,409 --> 00:24:14,209 Speaker 8: Like what's okay? 396 00:24:14,290 --> 00:24:17,409 Speaker 2: What's not okay? That kind of thing. 397 00:24:27,330 --> 00:24:30,209 Speaker 1: Why do you think he brought you with him that 398 00:24:30,409 --> 00:24:32,889 Speaker 1: day to the video shoot. 399 00:24:40,050 --> 00:24:45,210 Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it was. I think it 400 00:24:45,250 --> 00:24:48,889 Speaker 2: was to use me as a tool to have somebody 401 00:24:48,889 --> 00:24:54,729 Speaker 2: to have sympathy for sympathy for him, Yes, because in 402 00:24:54,770 --> 00:24:58,969 Speaker 2: his mind, I guess, I mean, you know, I have 403 00:24:59,050 --> 00:25:06,169 Speaker 2: this beautiful, young, well behaved daughter, and I'm you know, 404 00:25:06,169 --> 00:25:09,050 Speaker 2: we're forced to live in this one room, We're forced 405 00:25:09,209 --> 00:25:12,250 Speaker 2: to live this way. He's forced to live in limbo, 406 00:25:12,449 --> 00:25:15,249 Speaker 2: and you know, all these things. I think it was. 407 00:25:15,649 --> 00:25:17,929 Speaker 2: I think it was a cry for help, and I 408 00:25:17,970 --> 00:25:22,649 Speaker 2: think he was using me as a tool in his 409 00:25:23,449 --> 00:25:25,129 Speaker 2: plea and cry for help. 410 00:25:26,889 --> 00:25:31,609 Speaker 1: In the video, he refers to himself as as intersext. 411 00:25:32,609 --> 00:25:37,330 Speaker 1: So how did you how did you understand that? What 412 00:25:38,010 --> 00:25:39,010 Speaker 1: to mean from what. 413 00:25:38,929 --> 00:25:42,570 Speaker 2: I was always told was he had a medical condition. 414 00:25:43,649 --> 00:25:46,690 Speaker 1: When Tara asks her father about his medical condition, it's 415 00:25:46,689 --> 00:25:49,409 Speaker 1: hard to get a clear answer. In the past few years, 416 00:25:49,449 --> 00:25:52,450 Speaker 1: he's been diagnosed with dementia, and so there's a lot 417 00:25:52,530 --> 00:25:55,409 Speaker 1: he just doesn't remember, and Tara ends up relying on 418 00:25:55,449 --> 00:25:56,810 Speaker 1: what she was told as a child. 419 00:25:58,209 --> 00:26:00,969 Speaker 2: Lately, in the last couple of years, you know, I 420 00:26:00,970 --> 00:26:05,409 Speaker 2: started to just question certain things about you know, how 421 00:26:05,449 --> 00:26:12,050 Speaker 2: this whole transition happened, and I did some research and 422 00:26:12,369 --> 00:26:17,170 Speaker 2: I found an article that was written by this doctor 423 00:26:17,730 --> 00:26:19,410 Speaker 2: from Germany. 424 00:26:21,730 --> 00:26:25,049 Speaker 1: It's not just an article, it's a study conducted by 425 00:26:25,090 --> 00:26:28,249 Speaker 1: two German doctors over the course of twenty years, with 426 00:26:28,369 --> 00:26:31,729 Speaker 1: Tara's dad as its sole focus. It was published in 427 00:26:31,770 --> 00:26:35,649 Speaker 1: a journal called Archives of Sexual Behavior, and in it, 428 00:26:36,010 --> 00:26:39,889 Speaker 1: Tara's dad is diagnosed as having common syndrome, a rare 429 00:26:39,970 --> 00:26:44,929 Speaker 1: hormonal disorder that, among other symptoms, delays puberty or stops 430 00:26:44,929 --> 00:26:48,249 Speaker 1: it entirely. So if your male, this means your voice 431 00:26:48,250 --> 00:26:52,250 Speaker 1: never lowers, your body never grows hair. While the video 432 00:26:52,330 --> 00:26:55,810 Speaker 1: captures one moment in Tara's dad's life, the article presents 433 00:26:55,810 --> 00:26:59,289 Speaker 1: a portrait of his life since childhood, so alongside the 434 00:26:59,369 --> 00:27:02,609 Speaker 1: data on his hormone levels are details like how at 435 00:27:02,609 --> 00:27:05,689 Speaker 1: the orphanage he was caught spying on the girls and 436 00:27:05,730 --> 00:27:08,090 Speaker 1: as a punishment, was forced to dress as a girl. 437 00:27:09,010 --> 00:27:12,010 Speaker 1: Was also discharged from the Air Force for concealing female 438 00:27:12,010 --> 00:27:17,609 Speaker 1: clothes and his foot locker. The article also documents a 439 00:27:17,689 --> 00:27:23,649 Speaker 1: history of misdiagnoses, psychiatric hospitalizations, thwarted attempts at gender reassignment surgery, 440 00:27:23,970 --> 00:27:29,689 Speaker 1: and suicide attempts. He'd even set himself on fire. Throughout 441 00:27:29,730 --> 00:27:33,330 Speaker 1: his entire life, Tara's dad insisted his gender confusion owed 442 00:27:33,409 --> 00:27:38,409 Speaker 1: solely to the commons a physical hormonal condition. Nonetheless, the 443 00:27:38,490 --> 00:27:41,050 Speaker 1: doctors he was treated by labeled him with the mental 444 00:27:41,050 --> 00:27:46,289 Speaker 1: disorder transsexual, a diagnosis he violently rejected. It's also a 445 00:27:46,330 --> 00:27:50,769 Speaker 1: diagnosis that no longer even exists. The article states, she 446 00:27:50,889 --> 00:27:54,889 Speaker 1: always refused to consider herself as transsexual. As a result, 447 00:27:55,090 --> 00:27:58,570 Speaker 1: she found herself quote stuck in the middle. Because of 448 00:27:58,609 --> 00:28:04,649 Speaker 1: this stressful situation, she became emotionally even more disturbed. Tara's 449 00:28:04,689 --> 00:28:06,889 Speaker 1: dad was never able to get the life he wanted 450 00:28:07,209 --> 00:28:11,689 Speaker 1: or the treatment he needed. After reading the article, the 451 00:28:11,770 --> 00:28:14,769 Speaker 1: overwhelming sense I'm left with is that while things are 452 00:28:14,770 --> 00:28:18,290 Speaker 1: by no means perfect, the medical community's understanding of gender 453 00:28:18,369 --> 00:28:23,010 Speaker 1: has changed drastically, and societies has too. Had Tara's dad 454 00:28:23,050 --> 00:28:26,449 Speaker 1: been born twenty five years later, being quote stuck in 455 00:28:26,490 --> 00:28:28,530 Speaker 1: the middle might not have been the curse it felt 456 00:28:28,570 --> 00:28:31,850 Speaker 1: like back then, and perhaps he might not have experienced 457 00:28:31,929 --> 00:28:35,209 Speaker 1: quite so much suffering, and Tara might have been spared 458 00:28:35,290 --> 00:28:39,529 Speaker 1: having to witness so much suffering. In watching the video, 459 00:28:40,690 --> 00:28:44,250 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel as though you're being protected from any 460 00:28:44,730 --> 00:28:47,170 Speaker 1: kind of like thing that is being expressed. 461 00:28:47,610 --> 00:28:50,410 Speaker 2: No, I mean I knew more about this stuff as 462 00:28:50,450 --> 00:28:52,050 Speaker 2: a young child than most kids now. 463 00:28:52,690 --> 00:28:55,170 Speaker 1: And was that just a function of you say that 464 00:28:55,650 --> 00:28:59,209 Speaker 1: the apartment that your dad describes in the video is 465 00:28:59,250 --> 00:28:59,769 Speaker 1: like it's. 466 00:28:59,650 --> 00:29:03,450 Speaker 2: Just a room from I believe it was like twelve 467 00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:07,769 Speaker 2: by fourteen. Really, Yes, that's what I think the actual 468 00:29:07,970 --> 00:29:11,890 Speaker 2: size was. It's very small. I was right in the middle. 469 00:29:11,930 --> 00:29:13,890 Speaker 2: It was very hard for them to keep any types 470 00:29:13,890 --> 00:29:17,810 Speaker 2: of secrets from me, just because of the nature. There 471 00:29:17,890 --> 00:29:22,650 Speaker 2: wasn't any closed doors, there wasn't any escape. 472 00:29:22,890 --> 00:29:24,890 Speaker 1: She remember seeing her father come home with a black 473 00:29:24,930 --> 00:29:27,050 Speaker 1: eye from the building he worked at as a doorman. 474 00:29:27,530 --> 00:29:29,930 Speaker 1: The other doorman had beaten them up and told him 475 00:29:29,970 --> 00:29:30,890 Speaker 1: to never come back. 476 00:29:31,650 --> 00:29:34,130 Speaker 2: There were a lot of people that picked on him 477 00:29:34,410 --> 00:29:36,969 Speaker 2: abused him. I think it would have been better if 478 00:29:36,970 --> 00:29:40,529 Speaker 2: he probably moved away and started somewhere new with a 479 00:29:40,570 --> 00:29:42,010 Speaker 2: new life. 480 00:29:42,209 --> 00:29:45,370 Speaker 1: So why did he stay. At the end of the article, 481 00:29:45,490 --> 00:29:48,969 Speaker 1: the author's hypothesized that living in between, rather than, as 482 00:29:49,010 --> 00:29:52,250 Speaker 1: they put it, quote a real woman, allowed Tyr's dad 483 00:29:52,290 --> 00:29:55,050 Speaker 1: to continue to live with his family. I wrote to 484 00:29:55,090 --> 00:29:57,370 Speaker 1: one of the article's authors to ask what that meant. 485 00:29:57,930 --> 00:30:01,730 Speaker 1: His explanation was simple. Nowadays, he wrote, we see many 486 00:30:01,810 --> 00:30:04,770 Speaker 1: transgender persons who stay together with their spouse and family. 487 00:30:05,370 --> 00:30:08,610 Speaker 1: You have to remember that this happened in the nineteen eighties. 488 00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:12,850 Speaker 1: If Tara's dad had undergone sex reassignment, he says, it 489 00:30:12,930 --> 00:30:15,650 Speaker 1: might have broken up the family, and family was very 490 00:30:15,650 --> 00:30:19,370 Speaker 1: important to him. Tara's dad was put into foster care 491 00:30:19,410 --> 00:30:21,810 Speaker 1: at age one and lived in an orphanage until he 492 00:30:21,850 --> 00:30:25,049 Speaker 1: was a teenager. So maybe this living all together in 493 00:30:25,050 --> 00:30:28,490 Speaker 1: one room, a communal bathroom down the hall Tara having 494 00:30:28,490 --> 00:30:30,729 Speaker 1: to sleep in the same twin bed as him was 495 00:30:30,770 --> 00:30:33,569 Speaker 1: the only way he knew to keep his own family together. 496 00:30:34,890 --> 00:30:38,330 Speaker 2: I mean, my parents were very supportive of me and 497 00:30:39,050 --> 00:30:43,090 Speaker 2: anything I wanted to do. I went through private school, 498 00:30:44,090 --> 00:30:47,489 Speaker 2: even though we had no money. My mother decided to 499 00:30:47,690 --> 00:30:52,249 Speaker 2: work saturdays doing their bingo in exchange for my tuition. 500 00:30:52,610 --> 00:30:53,530 Speaker 1: She worked that out. 501 00:30:53,810 --> 00:30:59,770 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, you know. The only thing I would say 502 00:30:59,970 --> 00:31:04,450 Speaker 2: that I lacked growing up in that kind of environment 503 00:31:04,890 --> 00:31:08,009 Speaker 2: was having my own sets of privacy. That is the 504 00:31:08,010 --> 00:31:10,450 Speaker 2: only thing that I really lacked. 505 00:31:11,130 --> 00:31:12,370 Speaker 1: How did you negotiate that? 506 00:31:13,330 --> 00:31:16,130 Speaker 2: When I was really young, I actually used to go 507 00:31:16,170 --> 00:31:19,890 Speaker 2: out into the hallway and they had outlets in the hallway, 508 00:31:19,930 --> 00:31:22,730 Speaker 2: and I would bring my stuff out in the hallway 509 00:31:23,090 --> 00:31:25,770 Speaker 2: and just kind of make my own little private little 510 00:31:25,810 --> 00:31:28,209 Speaker 2: even though you had people that passed by once in 511 00:31:28,250 --> 00:31:31,370 Speaker 2: a while, I still had quite a bit of privacy there. 512 00:31:31,890 --> 00:31:33,290 Speaker 2: We had at one point we had a small, little 513 00:31:33,290 --> 00:31:37,290 Speaker 2: portable TV. I brought that outside. I mean, I would 514 00:31:37,290 --> 00:31:41,450 Speaker 2: do whatever. I'd bring my blanket outside in the hallway. 515 00:31:42,410 --> 00:31:44,050 Speaker 1: And so is it happy memories? 516 00:31:44,450 --> 00:31:44,850 Speaker 4: Yeah? 517 00:31:44,890 --> 00:31:59,809 Speaker 1: Absolutely. For Thanksgiving, the tenants would sometimes set up a 518 00:31:59,850 --> 00:32:02,570 Speaker 1: table in the hallway so they could all eat together 519 00:32:03,170 --> 00:32:05,930 Speaker 1: like a family. Tara was one of the few kids 520 00:32:05,930 --> 00:32:09,209 Speaker 1: in the building, so people were often stopping by to 521 00:32:09,209 --> 00:32:13,170 Speaker 1: give her little gifts. Even the most experimental of short 522 00:32:13,250 --> 00:32:16,650 Speaker 1: videos can only show what lies within the frame, not 523 00:32:16,690 --> 00:32:20,009 Speaker 1: what lies outside of it. Neither Tara, her mother, nor 524 00:32:20,130 --> 00:32:23,969 Speaker 1: her father remembered the video until I reminded them the 525 00:32:24,050 --> 00:32:26,290 Speaker 1: video had been swallowed up by all of their other days, 526 00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:30,130 Speaker 1: some bad, some good. There's one last thing that bears 527 00:32:30,170 --> 00:32:33,530 Speaker 1: Mentioning about that article, Tara appears in it as well. 528 00:32:34,450 --> 00:32:37,290 Speaker 1: The authors write that in spite of the situation, Tara 529 00:32:37,370 --> 00:32:41,210 Speaker 1: appeared to be dealing quote exceptionally well. They also said 530 00:32:41,250 --> 00:32:44,170 Speaker 1: that to her parents, Tara was a major source of pride. 531 00:32:45,770 --> 00:32:47,769 Speaker 1: Tara and her husband are looking to buy a house, 532 00:32:48,130 --> 00:32:50,330 Speaker 1: and Tara says she'd like one with lots of space. 533 00:32:51,050 --> 00:32:54,770 Speaker 1: They plan on starting a family. When she was a kid, 534 00:32:54,970 --> 00:32:57,810 Speaker 1: Tara's family made a couple cross country road trips together. 535 00:32:58,330 --> 00:33:01,570 Speaker 1: They lasted almost the whole summer. She says that after 536 00:33:01,610 --> 00:33:04,610 Speaker 1: she left their shared room, went off to college and graduated, 537 00:33:04,970 --> 00:33:07,690 Speaker 1: she decided to do one last trip with them. She 538 00:33:07,810 --> 00:33:09,850 Speaker 1: says she was probably never going to have a chance 539 00:33:09,890 --> 00:33:13,330 Speaker 1: to do it again, which says a lot. It's the 540 00:33:13,450 --> 00:33:16,969 Speaker 1: kind of thing a happy family does. Chooses to be together, 541 00:33:17,610 --> 00:33:20,770 Speaker 1: chooses to be squeezed in close just because they want 542 00:33:20,810 --> 00:33:59,090 Speaker 1: to be. Now that the Ferners returned to its goodwill home, 543 00:34:02,570 --> 00:34:07,690 Speaker 1: now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage, 544 00:34:07,770 --> 00:34:14,410 Speaker 1: the posit this moment to do so if we imagine, 545 00:34:14,490 --> 00:34:30,370 Speaker 1: if we trapler Acid Heavyweight is hosted and produced by 546 00:34:30,370 --> 00:34:34,090 Speaker 1: me Jonathan Goldstein along with Chris Neary and Khalila holt Our. 547 00:34:34,170 --> 00:34:37,410 Speaker 1: Senior producer is Wendy Dore, editing by Alex Bloomberg and 548 00:34:37,450 --> 00:34:41,450 Speaker 1: Jorge just Special thanks to Emily Condon, Caitlin Kenny, Peter Clowney, 549 00:34:41,490 --> 00:34:45,530 Speaker 1: Michelle Harris, Doctor Susan Bolwaer at Yale Pediatric Ender Chronology, 550 00:34:46,010 --> 00:34:49,770 Speaker 1: Maxi Cohen, Jack Hit, Jack Turbin, Leda Drummond, Mario Falsetto, 551 00:34:49,810 --> 00:34:53,969 Speaker 1: Peter Rose and my beloved friend Jackie Cohen. The show 552 00:34:54,050 --> 00:34:57,170 Speaker 1: is mixed by Hailey Shaw, music by Christine Fellow's. Additional 553 00:34:57,250 --> 00:34:59,610 Speaker 1: music for the episode can be found on our website, 554 00:34:59,650 --> 00:35:03,650 Speaker 1: Gimbletmedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our theme song is by 555 00:35:03,690 --> 00:35:06,730 Speaker 1: the Weaker Bands courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad 556 00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:09,410 Speaker 1: music is by Hailey Shaw. Follow us on to Twitter 557 00:35:09,450 --> 00:35:13,410 Speaker 1: at Heavyweight or email us at Heavyweight at gimbltmedia dot com. 558 00:35:13,490 --> 00:35:16,850 Speaker 1: We'll have a new episode next week. And if you're 559 00:35:16,850 --> 00:35:18,850 Speaker 1: a fan of Wiretap, the show I used to make 560 00:35:18,890 --> 00:35:21,570 Speaker 1: at the CBC, you can now find season six through 561 00:35:21,610 --> 00:35:25,250 Speaker 1: eleven on Earwolf's Howl app. Go to Howl dot fm 562 00:35:25,290 --> 00:36:01,250 Speaker 1: and sign up for a free seven day trial. Oh by. 563 00:36:02,610 --> 00:36:09,090 Speaker 2: Anger is my middle day. 564 00:36:10,570 --> 00:36:12,489 Speaker 1: Anger is my middle name. 565 00:36:14,490 --> 00:36:20,250 Speaker 2: Oh he Anger is my middle name. 566 00:36:22,490 --> 00:36:28,570 Speaker 7: Oh Anger Anger is my middle name. 567 00:36:34,170 --> 00:36:37,050 Speaker 1: That was really pretty. Matthew Boll, lead audio engineer at 568 00:36:37,090 --> 00:36:43,210 Speaker 1: Gimblet Media. Thank you, what's your middle name? My name? 569 00:36:43,370 --> 00:36:46,770 Speaker 1: Middle name is Matthew well, what's your middle name, Matthew, 570 00:36:47,010 --> 00:36:48,610 Speaker 1: you don't have a middle name. No, that is my 571 00:36:48,650 --> 00:36:51,930 Speaker 1: middle name. You use your middle name as your first name. Yes, 572 00:36:52,090 --> 00:36:53,170 Speaker 1: you know what my middle name is. 573 00:36:53,650 --> 00:36:53,730 Speaker 5: What? 574 00:36:53,970 --> 00:36:54,410 Speaker 4: No, I don't. 575 00:36:54,450 --> 00:36:56,330 Speaker 1: I don't know. Stewart. That's nice.