WEBVTT - Aquatic Humanoids, Part 1 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.600 First you will come to the sirens, who enchant all 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.560 who come near them. If anyone unwarily draws in too 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:15.520 close and hears the singing of the sirens, his wife 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:18.919 and children will never welcome him home again, for they 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.360 sit in a green field and wabble him to death 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:25.640 with the sweetness of their song. There is a great 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.800 heap of dead men's bones lying all around, with the 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:39.320 flesh still rotting off them. They meant the things on 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:41.839 the little island with the queer ruins, and it seems 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.240 them awful pictures of frog fish monsters were supposed to 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.160 be pictures of these things. Maybe they was the kind 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.240 of critters has got all the mermaids stories and such started. 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.200 They had all kinds of cities on the sea bottom, 0:00:54.240 --> 0:01:02.200 and this island was heaved up from thar of my 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from How Stuff 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:14.080 Works dot Com. Hey, you welcome to stuff to blow 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.040 your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.200 And if you recognize what those sources were, you probably 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:22.760 can tell we're gonna be talking about some mirror creatures, 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:26.000 some sea folks something like that today. That's right. The 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:30.160 first was from Homer's the Odyssey the Samuel Butler translation. 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.119 The second was from HP. Lovecraft The Shadow Over Ins 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.520 andet Now, there is always an alluring quality to the 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:39.200 idea that there's stuff happening down at the bottom of 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:41.640 the ocean that has more than just an animal quality, 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.640 but some kind of intelligence or organizing principle to it. 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.760 I think of in the George R. Martin books, there's 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.240 this character. Do you remember this guy Robert, who's like 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:55.520 a court jester and the in stanis Bathians court who's 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:58.600 always singing about what happens under the bottom of the sea. No, 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.120 I've forgotten about this. Well, he like falls in the 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.600 water at some point and gets rescued, and after that 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:06.120 he's always saying, like under the sea that I don't 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:08.480 remember what he says, but it's like they have feet, 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.440 you know, people people walk upside down on their hands. 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.520 And then he always says, I know, I know, ho 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.680 ho ho, And it's kind of mysterious. Oh yeah, this 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.239 does ring a bell. Now. Well, you know, before even 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:24.000 before we had proper mirrors, the uh, the ocean was 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.160 kind of the looking glass, right, it was kind of 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.280 the mirror world. Yeah, so any of those stories where 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:31.919 you wonder if there's actually some kind of creature living 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:33.880 on the other side of the mirror, if that's another 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:36.520 universe we're peering through into. All of that applies to 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.160 the water as well. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting when 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.320 you think of all the various specimens, the Mermaids, the Gilman, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:47.920 the sirens. It's fascinating the humans have seemingly always dreamt 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.919 up humanoids from the deep, not just monsters, but humanoids. Yeah, 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:53.480 I mean, because you can certainly expand it and get 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.400 into the whole realm of sea monsters and various animal 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:01.520 fish hybrids. But there's something particular cular about those humanoid 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:06.160 or partially humanoid creatures that a mirror world beneath the waves, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.840 and people of some sort that occupied to depths. Yeah, 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.280 I mean, even before you had somebody like Giordano Bruno 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.800 imagining that there could be other planets with surfaces like 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.120 our planet that could have creatures dwelling on them, you know, 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.040 when people didn't really have that conception of the sky, 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.640 you could still definitely wonder about something like that under 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.280 the ocean. That was like sort of the first outer space. 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:33.040 It was the original alien world. Yeah, indeed, and without 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.520 a real means of exploring it or understanding it. You 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.280 were just left with whatever happened to swim up with 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.840 within view, whatever happened to wash up dead and you know, 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:46.400 partially rotted away on the shoreline, whatever you were able 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.040 to pull up with with line or net. Dude, the 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:51.440 stuff that washes up dead on the beaches of the 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.880 Earth is terrifying and crazy now, even though we have 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.840 like photos and modern science. Can you imagine that happening 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.200 in a world where you know, the New Jersey beach 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.440 monster washes up, but it's in the Middle Ages in 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:08.400 China or something. Yeah, it's actually really fascinating to look back, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:10.960 particularly at a lot of the sea monster illustrations and 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.920 old maps. There's a book by chet van Duzer Sea 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.279 Monsters of Medieval and Renaissance Maps and and he he. 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:20.960 It's filled with wonderful illustrations. But you get to look 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.680 at at all these various creatures. You know, that's some 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:25.880 fairly realistic. You can look at and say, well, that's 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:28.359 clearly supposed to be a walrus, that's supposed to be 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:30.240 a whale. It just has too many blowholes, and some 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.360 of them you look at and you realize, well, this 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.120 is essentially what you might see if you saw the 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.960 put partially decomposed body of a whale, something enormous, but 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.080 a little more beaked looking. Now. In that book, Van 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.359 Duzer points out that few maps survive from antiquity, but 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:49.960 there are map like mentions and map like artifacts, such 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:53.080 as there's an Assyrian freeze from the palace of King 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:58.240 Sargon the second early eighth century BC that clearly depicts 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.440 to Assyrian morment. And it's great because if you've ever 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:05.000 seen Assyrian reliefs or carvings before, they've they've all got 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:07.440 the same head, you know, it's all that same guy 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.280 with the same curly beard and the hat. And these 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.800 mermaids are like that too. Yeah, And then you you 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.400 look at other ancient writing. I mean, they're mentioned in 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.920 ovid Ovid's writing The Metamorphosis. Ovid lived forty three b 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:23.919 c E To seventeen or eighteen CE, and he described 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.600 the gates of the Palace of the Sun is containing 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:30.120 all of these images of mirror people. The dark blue 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:35.400 Sea contains the gods melodious triton shifting Proteus uh Aegean 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.640 crushing two huge whales, together his arms across their backs, 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:43.480 and Doris with her daughters, some seen swimming, some sitting 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:47.200 on rocks drying their sea green hair, some writing the 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.520 backs of fish. And you can you can keep going 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.440 back in time too. I mean, as Nancy Easterland pointed 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.640 out in her two thousand one paper Hans Christian Andersen's 0:05:56.680 --> 0:06:00.720 Fish out of Water, the Babylonians recognized God's with fish 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:04.839 features or fish hybridity. Yeah, you can sort of see 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.040 this as an extension of the way that early creation 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:13.520 myths and ancient gods often had water aspects, like like 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.839 Tiamatta Nabsu, you know, the fresh water and the salt water, 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.160 or the idea of the creation stories which almost always 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.760 involve waters, right, you know, the chaos hover or the 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.919 being hovering out over the waters. Yeah, calling back to 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.679 our order out of Chaos episode. And we've talked about 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:33.279 inky as well before. The Sumerian water god, which is 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.680 sometimes described it's sometimes described as having a cloak of 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.719 a fish or scaled skin. Wait, a cloak of a 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.200 fish or a cloak made out of multiple fish or 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.640 one of the images I saw it looked like a 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.880 cloak of little fish icons like it like the cloak 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.839 was made out of fish emoticons. That's pretty great, that's amazing. 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.960 And get this, the ziggurat where people would worship Inky 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:01.120 was known as House of the Subterranean Waters. Well, that 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:04.760 seems to sort of complete the ziggurat trinity because we 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:09.520 we've talked about zigarattes before the Ziggurata Etemenanki, which was 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.880 sometimes believed to be associated with the historical idea of 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.800 the Tower of babel I think that name means something 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.640 like the house of the foundation of heaven and Earth, 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.000 very regal sounding zigguratte as if there's another kind of 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.760 zigguratte right now, additionally we have this is just kind 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.280 of a humble zigguratte. Yeah, there's no such thing. If 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.200 it's gonna be a zigguratte, it's gonna be a zigaratte. Now. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.680 Additionally we have we have fish tailed gods and water 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.560 dragons found throughout the cultures of India, China, and Japan 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.120 and uh Nancy Nancy Easterland sums up a lot of 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.000 this nicely. She says, quote, some of the mythological sea 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.120 beings and deities such as Poseidon and the Sirens were 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:51.120 not originally associated with water and piicine anatomy, the sirens 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:55.080 were originally birds, indicating that divine power and womanly allure 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.120 became combined with the power and promise of the sea 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:02.720 when ancient cultures undertook maritime war and trade. So she 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:07.680 argues that the that mur folk and mermaids, all these creatures, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.240 they're ultimately the descendants or in her words, the scale 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.840 down descendants, which I like because of scales. Uh, these 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.960 are just the scale down descendants of anciency gods. Yeah, 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.440 that seems like one example of the principle that displaced 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.640 gods or or fading gods of older theologies often appear 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.840 in sort of lower status or demoted roles in newer 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.840 versions of religions. Yeah, the old trope of the former 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:35.840 pagan god becomes a demon in medieval Christian traditions. Yeah. 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:40.440 So obviously we're talking about mr Folk water dwelling humanoids 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:42.160 of various kinds today, and this is going to be 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.920 the first part of a two part episode. The first 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.200 one here we want to discuss the sort of global 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.720 mr Folk mythology and all of the different ideas of 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:55.480 humanoids living in the deep and what that says about 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.160 us culturally and where where these ideas come from. And 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:01.680 then in the next stepisode, we're gonna focus more on 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:05.240 the science of aquatic humanoids. Yeah, so this is gonna 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.880 be the mythology and fiction episode and the next one 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:12.040 will be the science and speculative science episode. Now, Robert, 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:14.480 one of the first ones you mentioned was the sirens, 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.120 that's right. Yeah, and when we we had the reading 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.599 from the Odyssey at the start of the episode that 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:21.840 refers to them. But one thing you'll notice is that 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.320 there was no description of the sirens. Yeah, what do 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.960 they look like? Well, we don't know, because Homer never 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.840 actually describes them. Uh. They were later described though, as 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:35.080 being half bird, much like the Harpie, and later periods 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:38.720 of development merged them with the Northern mermaid in Christian Europe, 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.640 but medieval best Area's stuck to the bird hybridity though 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:45.800 up through at least twelve twenty and then you had 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.680 this gentleman Isidore of Seville who lived of five sixty 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.480 through six thirty six CE, and he attributed them with 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:56.080 scales and webbed feet and sometimes tales and wings as well. 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.720 But from the Middle Ages onward, that's where the sirens 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.000 really took on the mermaid look, and it's stuck. I'm 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.640 trying to think of depictions of them I've seen in movies, 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:07.640 but I don't think I have. The only thing that 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:09.920 comes to mind is, oh, brother, where art thou? But 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:13.000 in that they're not hybrids. They're just humans that are, 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.199 but they are in a creek bed, that's right. I 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:17.760 feel like a lot of the depictions that that I'm 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:22.000 accustomed to, mainly through the Time Life book series of 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.679 myths and monsters and myths and legends, and there was 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:27.679 there were some siren images in there, and a lot 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.720 of them were just basically beautiful women out on rocks, 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:37.199 luring the the the wide eyed Greek sailors to their doom. Now, 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.360 of course, if you're not familiar with the story, it's 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.280 that the sirens would sing, right, and that they're singing 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:45.840 was so lovely that it would drive men mad, and 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.320 it would and they would want to come ashore to 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.600 meet the sirens, I guess, or be drawn to the singing, 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.280 but instead their vessels would be dashed upon the rocks, right, Yeah. 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.960 And various accounts of the sirens that they vary, like 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.800 maybe you'd starve to death, or you perhaps drowned. I 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.800 guess the basic underlying reality of the myth is the 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.000 ocean is a dangerous place, right and if you go 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.520 out upon the ocean, you might meet your do I 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:14.600 always thought that what Odysseus does in the story of 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.840 his encounter with the sirens was an interesting sort of 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:22.920 metaphor for the ways some people experiment with mind altering substances, 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.600 which is that he has his men lash him to 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.520 the ship's mast so that he can't control you know, 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.520 he can't drive the ship into the rocks. But all 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:33.560 the other men plugged their ears, and he wants to 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.760 hear it. They're all the designated drivers. Yes, though in 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:38.840 a sense he's the designated driver because he is the 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:40.880 only one who can tell them when they're out of 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:45.040 the sirens range. But but but yeah, they're they're all 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:49.280 plugged up. He's the one that's a that's their rope 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.760 to the mast, begging to be let free, and their 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:53.880 under strict orders that the more I begged, the more 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.760 you need to wrote me to the mast. Now another 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:01.360 interesting uh, individual or race, depending on how you look 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:05.400 at it, from Greek mythology, the Triton so Triton was 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:10.120 originally a specific murr person. But Ariel's father, right is 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:12.280 Was that his name in the cartoon in the Disney movie, 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.959 wasn't it? I thought you just saw a little mermaid 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.560 themed show, and I did, but it was at Wiki Watchie, 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:22.240 which is the long running Mermaid show there, and the 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:26.679 underwater dancing is a very limited storytelling medium, and I 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.120 don't think her father ever showed up in it. Okay, yeah, 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.360 I think that's his name. I remember this from childhood, 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.120 the guy with the big beard and the trident, the 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:39.199 mayor man king. He's King Triton. Okay, I definitely remember him, 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.760 but I didn't remember his name. Well. Uh. The Triton's 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:46.240 eventually became seen as just a class of murr people 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:50.040 in Greek myth. They were the sons of Poseidon and Amphathrite. 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.120 They had humanoid bodies covered in scales, and then they 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.640 had dolphin tales maddi green or yellow hair. They had 0:12:56.679 --> 0:13:00.319 gills as well as pointed kind of elf ears, wide 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:04.040 mouths things, and then they typically would serve as escorts 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.160 for the Nereid sea nymphs as well as general attendants 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.200 for seed Avinity. And our old friend Hestiodd said that 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.080 they inhabited Golden palaces under the sea. Now it sounds 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.560 like King Triton, Yeah, exactly. It's it's that this is 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.640 key to so many of our our myths and legends 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.240 of my people. Now I'm wondering this is kind of 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:29.320 interesting that it's combining features of the House of ick Thos. Right, 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.600 it's got the scales and the fish like characteristics, but 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.160 then they've also got dolphin tales, So there's this melding 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.360 of aquatic mammals and fish. Well, of course you have 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.160 to remember that for the longest time this was not 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.280 a clear distinction, the idea that the dolphins were not fish. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.640 So it makes sense that we just mesh it all 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:52.920 up under miscellaneous sea beasts. And also in medieval times, 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:57.600 Triton's were made the male counterparts of sirens, the male counterparts, 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.240 as in like they were the same species, or like 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.760 they were just friends or what My understanding is that 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.439 it's like they were of the same species of one 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:11.040 dares to get too technical with your your mythological people's 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.840 under the waves, and I think this will be very 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.720 interesting later on when we discuss modern treatments of mermaids 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:23.280 and fish people. Okay, so fangs, scales, dolphin tales, humanoid characteristics. 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.520 That's not enough hybridity for me. I want you to 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.840 mash in some more stuff. Well, you're in luck, Joe, 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:33.040 because there there's another creature to consider here, the atho centaur. Yes, 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:36.080 so you had something called a centauro triton, which is 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.960 basically what occurs when you have a triton that's depicted 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:44.640 with like like a definite dolphin esque hind quarters of ocation. 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.920 But then the ichio centaur takes the hybridity to a 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.160 whole another level. So we see this and around the 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:55.600 third century Common Era, and this is found in the 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.320 Natural history text Physiologists. Uh, and this each year the 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.520 ichthio centaur was said to have the torso and head 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.200 of a man, the four legs of a horse or 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.960 lion are the hind quarters of a dolphin, and unlike 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:13.840 the centaur o triton, they had scale. Now I'm so 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:19.360 imagining what kind of habitat this creature dwells in. When 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:21.840 would it be useful to have the four legs of 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.480 a horse and the tail of a dolphin. H Well, 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:27.080 I mean you could really tease that apart and get 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.520 into I guess the symbolic meaning of the things or 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.040 you you end up coming back to your idea of like, 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.080 here's something washed up on the beach, makes sense of it, 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.520 and well, this is kind of the story that ends 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.880 up spreading about it. There are no classical accounts of 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.720 the Ichthio centaur according to the resources I was looking at, 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.800 but that they remained a decorative motif, which is kind 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:48.640 of the ultimate fate of a lot of these, like 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.640 the mermaid and the uh and the triton and the 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:56.920 Ichthyo centaur, they become just part of medieval likenography going forward, 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.480 and they come to symbolize other things, the Mermaid particular 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.600 becoming to symbolize to sort of the the the evil 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.880 and monstrous nature of the female Uh sometimes depicted Uh, 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:09.920 I believe with a with a fish to show that 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.920 she is entrapping the Christian soul. Yeah. I often think 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:17.720 of the tradition of the mermaid as being one of temptation, 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.840 like that it it establishes kind of like a foolish 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.800 and weak willed sailor that will give in to the 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.440 temptation of the mermaid because he has not properly disciplined 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.280 his spirit to resist sin. It reminds me a lot 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.880 of the incubi and succubi legends we've discussed in the 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:39.200 podcast before, where the feet would be a giveaway, the 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.960 feet would be the feet of a beast, and therefore 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:46.480 any any rational believer would notice the feet of the 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:52.560 creature and just and cease to pursue this foolish pairing. 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.280 But yeah, that's an interesting parallel, like that they both 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:58.800 go back to this idea of the sinner as someone 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.040 who's oblivious to difference. Yeah, like they can't see all 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.160 the warning signs here, the main warning sign of course, 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.120 being that the individualist part fish. All right, well, maybe 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:09.960 we should take a quick break and then we come back. 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:16.639 We will discuss more aquatic humanoid legends from around the world. Alright, 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:20.440 we're back. So not every mirror person in mythology and 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:24.080 legend is a villain. Uh. Sometimes you see some that 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.879 that have beneficial aspects as well. There's, for instance, the 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:32.560 the the Neno of Japanese legend. This is essentially less 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.359 of a mermaid and more of just a fish with 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:38.320 a beautiful woman's face, and it's protective and warns of 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:42.000 misfortune on land and sea. And then there's also an 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:47.719 interesting one from the Micmac people of eastern Canada. They 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:51.000 were known as the halfway people. Uh, these particular mr 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.159 folk they had the upper bodies of a body of 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:55.359 a human and the lower body of a fish, and 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:59.399 they'd warn fishermen of coming storms or invoke storms if 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.240 they were distrest spected. Now I have to add another 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.920 North American or Canadian entry, a less fulkloric and more 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.280 of a one off. But I'm adding it because I've 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:13.400 seen this in person, Robert the Bant from Merman. You've 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.679 looked up images, right, I did. I was not familiar 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:16.920 with this, and I had, of course heard of the 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:20.320 Fiji Mermaid. And I've never been to Bath, but I'm 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:22.720 familiar with it. You know, you've talked about your adventures there, 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.359 and it does not seem like a likely mermaid destination. No, 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.760 not really. I mean, so this is Inland, Canada. This 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.399 is in Alberta and Bant National Park. So this is 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:36.600 a mountainous region, not a not a coastal region, but 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:40.080 it has lakes, and so in these lakes, I guess 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.399 one might expect to find some kind of hybrid humanoid 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:48.240 aquatic creature. And so inside this business in Banff in Alberta. 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.440 There is a little store called the Indian Trading Company, 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:53.560 and in the back of the store there is a 0:18:53.600 --> 0:19:00.080 taxidermy creature that's half fish, half humanoid gremlin and it 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.280 looks like, I don't know how would you describe it. 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.119 Like the back of it just looks straight up like 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.200 a fish. It's a fish with the head cut off, 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.200 and then that fish just goes straight into some ribs 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:15.080 with with like human baby arms but with claws on them, 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:20.320 and a scary looking head that has hair. I mean 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:22.760 it looks like a taxidermine creation. I mean that is 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.000 what it is. Yes, it is a fish and probably 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.439 some sort of a small monkey that the remains of 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.120 which we're we're sewn together, yeah, or the I think 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.280 it's also possible that the top half of it could 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.960 just be artificial. I think it could be a crafted artifact. 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:39.439 According to a write up on Atlas Obscurity, it was 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.720 probably bought by a man named Norman Luxton, who is 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:45.760 the proprietor of the shop around nineteen fifteen, when it 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.480 was when it first showed up there. It's very much 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:51.080 in the traditional of like the P. T. Barnum kind 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.560 of thing that the Fiji mermaid. Yes, so some kind 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.520 of a side shoeoddity sort of thing. Yeah, except it 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.320 stays right here in this uh, in this store or 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.560 I don't know how long it's been totally stationary there. 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:04.080 But yeah, if you go to Bamp and you go 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:06.200 to the store and you go into the back room, 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.560 you will see lots of oddities. There is like a 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:12.080 giant taxidermy bear I think, and some moose heads and 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.679 other local stuff. But yeah, this thing is in a 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:16.959 glass case. It's got a mirror behind it, and they 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:21.000 sell postcards. It's like I saw them from Herman. Interesting. 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.520 Well that's this. I've got to check that out when 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:27.040 I finally get up to ban. Now, speaking of Canadian 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:29.879 we can sort of extend that and think of French 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.720 traditions as well. Uh, there is a mermaid in French 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:38.040 traditions known as Melo scene and much like a kidna, 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.400 the mother of monsters in Greek myth, the French mermaid 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:44.480 here boasts a two pronged tale. Oh you know what 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.800 that reminds me of Dagon? Well yeah, I thought you're 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.760 gonna say Starbucks, but yes, also the movie, the Stewart 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.719 Gordon movie Dagon that came out in two thousand and one. 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.639 It's kind of a mixed bag. Not not a great movie, 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:58.840 but there's some things to like about it. Yeah, it's 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.720 a love crafty in like it's basically an adaptation of 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.640 Shadow over in Smith, but they lean into the Mermaids 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:06.919 a little more. They lean into the sex and violence 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:09.359 a little more. Uh, it's worth checking out if you 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:14.600 like violent fish people movies. But what about Starbucks Starbucks, Well, 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:18.520 it just coffee basically, But but that that logo with 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:22.560 the mermaid with the two pronged tail, uh, with going 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.400 up on each side of the creature, Like that's basically 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.199 melocene or a kid not, depending on how you want 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:29.600 to look at Robert. I hate to say it, but 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:31.879 I don't think anybody ever pays attention to that logo 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.080 unless they're trying to get mad about it or not 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:37.560 having a Sanda hat or something. It would be interesting 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:39.320 if people started getting mad over that, is, Like, why 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:41.560 does this mermaid have two tales instead of one? We 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.399 want an American Mermaid, not a French Mermaid. One tale, 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.639 one country, one tale. Well, they're probably you know, pining 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:54.440 for the classic Mermaid, the have for the Danish Mermaid. 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:56.959 Why is this the classic Well, you know, because when 0:21:57.000 --> 0:21:59.119 you when you really think about mermaids, you think of 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:01.960 like Hans Christian Anderson, you think of Northern Europe. Oh, so, 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.399 to be clear, Hans Christian Anderson is the author of 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:09.760 the Little Mermaids story that the Disney movie is loosely 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:13.159 based on, very loosely because in his version there's a 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:15.919 lot more like blood and cutting off feed and stuff. 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.000 Oh yes, it's a bit a bit more violent. But 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:21.320