WEBVTT - “Postmodernism:” 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.840 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:17.520 and there's Charles W Chuck Bryant. Jerry's here too, and 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:24.680 this is Stuff you Should Know postmodernism. Addition, I'm strapping 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.760 on my ice skates. I know, Chuck, I was thinking 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.760 about it. This may very well be the most difficult 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.880 topic we've ever tackled. Is this hard for you too? Oh? Yeah, 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:40.080 it's hard for everybody. It's hard for everyone. Yeah, No, 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:44.000 it's very difficult. It's really hard to define. It's really 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:50.160 easy to miss characterize things as postmodern and um lump 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.879 stuff in even though it is technically that. And and and 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.400 worst of all, it's really easy for people to be 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:00.920 snobby to other people about what is or isn't post modernism. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.639 So it's yeah, it's gonna be rough. I think that's 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.880 why I'm a little not nervous, because who really cares, right, 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:14.760 it's just a podcast. But uh, just unnerved because philosophical movements, 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:21.200 art art movements that have fuzzy boundaries. Uh, it's tough 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.880 for me. Always has been ideal, a little bit more 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.280 in the concrete. Uh, So it's gonna be interesting, you know, 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.560 especially when you know you look at some more I 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.959 don't know about cynical, but just sort of straightforward definitions 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:40.200 of like what is postmodern art? And most people will say, like, well, 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:45.880 it's art that happened between nineteen nineteen seventy right now. Wrong. Well, 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:47.920 it's not wrong, it's an era. Like That's where it 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:52.440 gets slippery, Uh, because art is defined by eras, and uh, 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:54.920 even though people did things in the different eras that 0:01:55.360 --> 0:02:01.680 thematically and stylistically apply more to other eras. Like would 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.000 you call The Godfather a postmodern film? No, but it 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.240 was made in the postmodern film era precisely. So the 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:16.640 differentiation here, then is that it begins. The differentiation here 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:20.359 is the postmodernism that we're talking about is not just art. 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.720 It's not just film, it's not just architecture, is not 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:27.200 even just philosophy. We're talking about an entire worldview that 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.600 all of us collectively share. Most of us, I should say, 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.880 I think you know the West, you could say, if 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.000 you want to call it that shares this this culture, 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:41.800 postmodernist culture, post World War two, generally. Yeah, some people 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:43.520 put it at the seventies, some people put it at 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.400 the sixties, other other people even go as late as 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:52.760 like basically, but it's not just an art movement. It's 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:54.799 not just a type of film, it's not just a 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.840 type of literature. It's it's a it's a way of 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:02.160 looking at the world that in turn shapes how we 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.600 create or exist, or live in or deal with the world. 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:08.959 And we do it together. It's culture. But the reason 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.359 it's so fuzzy chuck compared to other things is because 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:14.840 it's it may still be going on right now, and 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.400 if it isn't still going on right now, it ended 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.080 so recently that we're still so wrapped up in the 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.320 turbulent effects of it that it's hard to see which 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.240 ways up down sideways. So it's really difficult to nail down. 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:30.720 But it's really fun to try, I've found. And it's 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:33.079 the kind of thing where like they probably won't put 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:38.640 it a year marker until thirty years from now on 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:42.160 what post postmodernism is, which we'll get to, yeah, totally, 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.360 and even then it takes you know, it's not a 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.600 cut and dried thing because of change like this happens 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.480 over the course of a decade or two, yeah, or 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:55.040 or more even for sure, and I would pose it 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.720 that we're in those decades of change right now. We're 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:03.200 in a transition period between postmodernism and what's next. And 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.160 I think that's one reason why everything is just so 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:10.080 uncomfortable right now, in addition to a pandemic being dropped 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.360 on top of us at a really uncomfortable time. And 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:17.320 I would also say, after reading a lot about this stuff, uh, 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.440 I think art visual art, like let's just say painting. 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:22.680 I know there's a lot more to it than that, 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.080 but as opposed to literature and film, I think the 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.640 boundaries there are a little more rigid than in other 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.000 in things like literature and film, where they draw demarcation 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:35.480 lines between pre modern modern and postmodern eras a little 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:40.520 more succinctly. Like technically anything made these days would be 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:45.599 considered postmodern art. Uh, just by the virtue of the 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:47.800 fact that it's now, whereas you would not say a 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:53.120 film is necessarily right right. Um, so I quit, No, 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.880 you did great, We're doing great. Just hanging there, man, 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.960 Just just double up the strength of your fingernails and 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:01.760 claw in further. Okay, because I just feel the emails 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.760 being typed. It's fine, you know what, we could go 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.800 super postmodern and just totally ignore him like they don't exist, 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.200 because what is really an email? You know what I mean? Yeah, 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.719 or we could really postmodern email reply would be you know, 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.159 I read your email and here's what I think and 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:21.080 just stop at T H I N. Yeah, that's pretty great. 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.880 That would be great. So, um, we're this is gonna 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.760 be fun. We're talking about postmodernism and just this is 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.039 one of those things where we have to define it 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:35.320 from the outset, which is the problem with postmodernism is 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.560 figuring out how to define it. And before we go 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:41.920 any further, every hat I own right now, I'm taking 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.120 off for Dave Russ, who helped us put this together. 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.680 He did a great job. He did a wonderful job. 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:50.680 Like no, I want it. Was really interested to see 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:52.680 what he would do, and he did. He really rose 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.440 to the occasion, like he did a great job. So 0:05:56.520 --> 0:06:01.960 he's he kind of started with this um anecdote about 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.000 the a student of an art professor who asked his 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.240 class like, you know, what, what is postmodernism? How do 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.120 you define it? And um, the students said basically something 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.240 that the professor later ripped off, which is, um, it's 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:21.240 where you put quotations around everything. Yeah, it almost feels 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:27.400 cynical in a way, Yes, a million percent, like the 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:31.520 age of cynicism. Remember the sarcasm of the nineties. Um, 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.880 you know the right, Yeah exactly, you just did it 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.120 so Um, all of that, all of that is a 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:44.320 dent the fabric, the cultural fabric of of postmodernism. It's 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.359 it's as we'll see a tearing down, not just institutions 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:52.080 and authorities and all that stuff, but other people just 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.040 doing it as like just the most casual thing in 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.320 the world, just tearing down. That is the cultural basis 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:00.839 of postmodernism. Yeah, Like if someone word to talk about 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.800 Andy Warhol soup cans, they can say, well, that's his 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.279 truth in reality. But you would put that in quotes 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.760 right with your hands at a party. You put truth 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.360 in quotes, You put reality in quotes. And that's what 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:15.800 that student was saying. You put everything in quotes, because 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.880 the philosophical basis of postmodernism is that there is no 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.360 such thing as universal truth, there's no such thing as 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:30.160 reality like your you could you could, even if you 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.200 wanted to be a total jerk, you could do soup 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:37.120 and quotes and cans and quotes and Andy Warhol in quotes, right, so, 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:39.560 and Andy Warhol would love it. He would roll over 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.320 in his grave, but it would be like a dance 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:46.120 move more than something out of agony. Yeah, so so, um, 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.560 that's kind of what the what the student was saying. 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.520 You put everything in quotes because nothing is There is 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:55.480 no universal truth. And that is where postmodernism broke from 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.960 its immediate predecessor, which is modernism, which said, no, there's 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.440 all sorts of universal truths, and that carried on an 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.880 even longer tradition of the idea that there's universal truths 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.600 and we can try to find these through different ways, right, 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:13.840 And with modernism it was like, let's not use religion, 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.760 let's use reason, and it's like a post Enlightenment sort 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.120 of frame of mind where we can figure out these 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:24.240 universal truths and we can apply them to our artworks, 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.840 whether it's literature or you know, uh, any kind of 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:32.360 visual art, right right. So um, so with modern art 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:37.040 as weird as it can seem, as abstract as it 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:41.600 can seem. Um, what they were doing really ultimately at 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:46.119 base followed in the tradition of like the Romanticists before them, 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.320 of the Renaissance painters before them, they were all trying 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:53.200 to move towards what's called sublime sensibility, which is this 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.679 idea that there is a universal truth, There is universal beauty, 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.680 there is universal like happiness, Like the nature is a 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:05.720 universal it's shared in common to all people, exists in 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.320 and of itself. And they just kind of chose a 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.360 different way of going after that, rather than painting like 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.120 cherubs and the most amazing clouds you can possibly come 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.200 up with, you know, behind the Crucifixion of Christ or something. 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:21.960 They tried to evoke it through those shapes and colors 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.840 and abstract paintings. Um, but they were still at base 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:29.760 after the same thing, which was uncovering that universal truth 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:34.240 of of like beauty. Right. And then you know, I 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.000 took of We talked about it before. I took a 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:40.199 philosophy class in college that uh both blew my mind 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:43.480 and I just didn't even understand. But I tried. I 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:44.960 think I actually made an a in it because I 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.720 tried really, really really hard in that class. Uh No, kids, 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:54.040 I tried hard in every class, but especially hard in philosophy. 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.079 But I remember studying Nietzsche and some of it hitting 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.959 home a little bit, and that even though Nietzsche was 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.960 for sure like pre postmodernism as far as uh An 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:10.240 era is defined, but had these thoughts of postmodernism in 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.800 that Nietzsche came along and said, you know what, it's 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.080 there's there are perspectives. There is not a universal truth 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.920 because we are all individuals and we all have our 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:22.240 own unique perspective on what beauty might be or what 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:25.880 truth might be or reality might be. So that I 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.360 remember that speaking to me some more than I guess 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:33.400 the modernist thought, yeah, because it makes sense. It's that 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.160 that whole kind of thing, like what is the color 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.760 green to you? It's not the same to me. Or 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:40.080 if you look at an apple on a table, and 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.680 then you move around the table, the apple changes shape. 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.360 So depending literally on your perspective, you see things differently. 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.120 And so what Nietzsche was saying is that if you 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:52.240 if you take that and multiply it by however many 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.959 billion people are on the planet, how can there possibly 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.559 be such a thing as a shared reality? How can 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:02.400 there possibly be such thing is a universal truth? There can't. 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.520 It's just not possible because not only do people see 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.800 things differently, they have different experiences in their lives that 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:14.200 alter perception. Even more minutely, it's just too complex humans 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:19.520 and then collectively humanity is too complex to have universal truths. 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:21.960 And so that was kind of the basis of his 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.199 perspective ism that you were talking about. And then in 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:27.319 in turn by proxy, he said, well, then that means 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.280 that all of these meta narratives, um, the stories that 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:32.760 we tell ourselves they are they're meaningless. They can't be 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.480 true either. Yeah, So it's what postmodernism would end up 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.800 becoming is a rejection of modernism, and that would play 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.720 out across all kinds of different kind of art forms 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:44.280 that we're going to talk about in a little bit, 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:49.680 but philosophically as well, because if if science and reason 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:55.000 bring us world war and nuclear bombs, then there's gonna 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.840 be I think a tendency to reject that. Yeah. So 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.920 kind of like I think we talked about before, I 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.880 don't remember in what episode, but that World War one 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.400 was like it revealed the full horror of just putting 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.120 all of your faith in science and reason that like 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.760 it would lead to technology that led to destruction. And 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:16.920 then that was followed up by World War two and 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.360 the Holocaust. Um, it was followed up by things like 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:25.480 lobotomies and phrenology and um and just mass destruction, the 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.000 nuclear bomb. All this stuff came from the application of 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:34.280 science and reason faithfully, unerringly, and so postmodernism said, you know, 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.920 we need to get rid of this completely and totally. 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.360 We need to tear it all down and start over. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:45.120 So the whole movement started out as a response, a 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:50.160 reactionary response to the horrors of a different movement. And 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.319 I think anytime you have a movement that's that's born 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:58.920 out of um, a recoiling, a repellent response to something, 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.920 it's going to be reckless. And I think in that sense, 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:05.719 postmodernism isn't always has been reckless, because again, it's all 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.760 about tearing down, and it started with tearing down all 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:13.280 of the pillars in the golden calves of modernism. Well, 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:19.080 reckless or free both, it's definitely both, all right. I 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:21.080 think it's I think it's very much both because I think, 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:25.800 you know, as we'll see later on, postmodernism ultimately led 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.720 to its own horrors that we're living with today, and um, 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:34.319 it was out of recklessness. I think. Okay, the digital age, 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.480 that's part of it, for sure. Should we take a break. 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.160 I think your dog says, so did you hear that 0:13:41.520 --> 0:14:09.439 it is National pet Day? Josh? All right, we're back. 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:13.280 My dog barked again to signal us, and uh, I 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.360 guess we should just go ahead and say that. The 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:21.040 term itself postmodernism was coined by a French philosopher name 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.760 Jean Francois. How how would you pronounce that? Is it 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.080 leo tar, leotard or leotard? Okay? Uh? And this was 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.200 in nineteen seventy nine, So you know, people put the 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:36.120 postmodern era again with there's they're fuzzy numbers, but I've 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:41.120 generally mostly seen sort of mid nineteen fifties to night 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.680 early nineteen seventies is kind of the beginning. Uh. And 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.600 so this was a nineteen seventy nine when it was 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:51.120 actually defined by Jean Francois, who said, I defined postmodern 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:56.080 as incredulity towards meta narratives, which you already talked about 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.160 these sort of stories that we tell ourselves that sort 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.160 of give structure to all of our existence. Yeah, it's 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.880 like I saw it explained as meta narrative is the 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:11.600 blueprint that we carry out like our actions and our lives, 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.000 and so that like without a blueprint. A plumber just 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.480 laying pipe. It's just randomly laying pipe. There's no there's 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.920 no point or reason to what they're doing. But if 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.560 they're following a blueprint, it gives it. It gives their 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.080 work meaning, guidance, there's a purpose to it. And so 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:29.280 meta narratives can take all sorts of different forms, from 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:33.840 the free market is going to um, you know, deliver 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.600 us all to like this prosperous, happy, progressive future, to 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:44.160 um you know, religion explains why we're here to um. Basically, 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.200 any grand story that's like the big picture, that's a 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.600 meta narrative. And we've got a lot of them. And 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.320 postmodernism said, not a single one of those is legitimate. 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:56.880 Uh well, I don't know about legitimate, but not a 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.160 single one of those is should be looked at as 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.239 the truth. Okay, Like I think they can be considered. 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:07.120 But but the problem I think with modernism, or at 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.760 least as far as the postmodernists goes, is that they 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.160 laid claim that these are the universal truths. Okay, I 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:17.280 think that was a very important, nuanced point that You're right, 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:22.840 I retracted my original statement. Okay, we need a ding 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.920 one point that will be my only ding. I don't know, man, 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.960 you've been dinging it up already. I just haven't used 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.920 the sound effect. Okay, but it's you know, we talked 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:38.840 about cynicism, it's also about skepticism, right, yeah, so I 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.280 think that's part of the sarcasm, in the irony when 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.240 you are sarcastic towards somebody, when you're ironic about you know, 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:49.520 when you speak ironically about something, you're expressing skepticism that 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.360 what that is is true or cool or real or 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:57.000 anything whatever whatever it is you're you're you're saying, as 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:00.200 long as it's sarcastic or ironic, it's it's a form 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.360 of skepticism. And that that is kind of like the 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:12.080 hallmark cultural um uh move hallmark is good. Okay, that's 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:16.000 the cultural hallmark of postmodernism. I think irony and in 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.840 skepticism and in sarcasm. Okay, I agree with all that 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:25.439 ding ding or we need Chris Hardwick on here just 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.960 to say points, Oh, that's a good one. He what's 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.000 he doing these days? He could probably do that. I 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.800 think he's still doing the talking dead. No, I'm sure 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.680 he does plenty. Yeah, he's a brandon to himself. Yeah, 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.960 he's like the Ryan Seacrest of podcasting, that's sure. He 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:48.119 probably podcasts though, probably, But I think Chris Hardwick is 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.200 still the Ryan Seacrest of podcasting. Should we talk about 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.680 art like painting and stuff. Yeah, yeah, because I think 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.520 we laid the groundwork here. But let's just re let's 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.840 just go over this real quick one more time. Postmodernism 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:04.640 it's a recoil, repellent response to modernism, which produced all 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.920 sorts of world wars and the nuclear bomb and was 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:10.720 based on authority figures and rigidity and universal truths. And 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:12.240 you have to follow this and you have to look 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.040 at this this way, and if if you paint a 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.720 different way outside of that, it's not really art. And 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.040 the art world was one of the very first outside 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:25.439 of philosophy to kind of rebel against that, um the 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.000 idea that there's anybody who could say that's art, that's 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.920 not art. And one of the first people to really 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:37.200 do that was um the data as Marcel du Champ. Yeah. 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.360 So here's the thing with talking about eras of art. 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:44.640 If you look at some of Duchamp's work in particular, Uh, 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:46.520 we should just go ahead and reference probably one of 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.439 the most famous which was what he called already made, 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:53.439 which was to take in this case a urinal, the 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:55.960 you know, not built a urinal, but take a mass 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.760 produced urinal, signed a name on it, a pen name 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:04.159 in the case was our Mutt Mutt and called it 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.520 Fountain in nineteen seventeen. And this was a piece of art. 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:09.359 And if you look at this piece of art, it 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:14.600 is decidedly postmodern, but it was made what five to 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:19.840 six decades before anyone would define art as postmodern art. 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:24.040 And it lives like squarely in the middle. I don't 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.199 know about the middle, but it lives squarely in the 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:31.280 modern art movement. So like the difference between and I 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.000 read a lot about this between modern art and postmodern 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:41.520 art is philosophical. It's also like uh cultural and that 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:46.040 it was mainly men who were making the art. Uh. 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.800 Postmodern art really brought along different cultural perspectives and female perspectives. 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:55.879 It was also, I read, very goal oriented, whereas postmodern 0:19:56.000 --> 0:20:00.000 art cared more about process. Apparently modern art was very 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.399 very much still goal oriented. Even though they saw it 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:07.680 as a rejection of the still life of the bowl 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.800 of fruit on the table before them, A lot of 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.960 the work still sort of echoed that kind of thing, 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:16.440 and then he had du Shot coming along with his toilet, 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.960 which is completely postmodern but lives in a modern era, 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.560 right and and like you were saying, like he he 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:29.440 came decades before the postmodern era in exactly the same 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.640 way that Nietzsche was was laying the foundation for postmoderny 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.439 and philosophy and culture decades before the postmodern era, to 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.880 even further back than that. But there's just no way 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.800 of looking at at Duchamp's work any other way than 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.880 this is a postmodern artwork, and not just that one. 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.440 The fountain like that was his like bread and butter, 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.639 was using these reading mates, and that was a huge 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.760 foundation of the actual postmodern art movement that came later, 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:00.000 which was first of all, tearing down the distinction between 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:02.320 in high art and low art, because du Schamp was 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.480 a serious artist, exhibiting in serious galleries and museums and 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.800 things like that, but he was also buying urinals, signing 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.679 them and calling it art. So in one way that 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:13.840 makes it like way more accessible to you and me. 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:16.760 It makes it less scary, like arts less scary. You 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:18.840 don't have to be an expert to come into the 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:21.199 art world now, and appreciate art or laugh at art 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.040 or take your you know, let the art, you know, um, 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:28.000 like stop taking life quite so seriously. Um. But at 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.840 the same time, it also the fact that he went 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.439 and bought something, he paid for something from a plumbing 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:37.119 supply company that was mass produced also lead the foundation 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:44.360 for guys later like Andy Warhol, who melded consumerism into 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:48.360 art to create pop culture, which opened the door for 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.439 commoditization of art, which then opened the door for what 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.120 we live in today, which is like art is advertising basically, 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:59.720 like there's almost no distinction whatsoever. It's everywhere, and it's 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:03.240 high jack to sell things as much as it is 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.520 to to actually make art or make something beautiful or 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:10.280 good or thought provoking. Yeah, and I don't know. I 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.399 think that the transition to post modern art is really 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:18.040 interesting because it opened it to different classes. Modern art 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:21.880 was was almost exclusively based in Europe and in Russia, 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:27.200 I guess, whereas postmodern art after World War two things really, 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:30.120 I mean you could say all of the West basically 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:34.199 was taking part, but just sort of outsider art and 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:37.600 conceptual art and two things to where we have today. 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:40.080 We're like, well, someone will We'll put a pile of 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:42.040 sunflower seeds in the middle of the floor and call 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:46.600 it art. Uh. That is that is the postmodern sort 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:50.399 of rejection of what was already I think a pretty 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:53.520 radical departure as far as the art world is concerned 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.840 with modern art, because when you have people like Jackson 0:22:56.880 --> 0:23:02.240 Pollock or you know, uh, Picasso or Cuba stuff, there 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.760 was already. Uh, I think a lot of that stuff 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:08.480 was a little bit slower to accept from sort of 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:13.240 the traditional you know, pre modern art critics. Right, So 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:17.600 postmodern just blew that, blew past it. It definitely did. 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:20.680 And then so Warhol comes along and creates pop art 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:24.280 and everybody starts definitely riffing on that vibe. But one 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:30.080 of the other hallmarks of postmodern art is borrowing and remixing, 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:35.480 mashing up other styles, other types of art from different eras, 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:40.360 different media, um, and just kind of mixing it together 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:43.160 in a brand new way. That's one of the hallmarks 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.080 of postmodern art as well. Yeah. I love that David 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:49.520 Byrne quote Ascent because he's a sort of the quintessential 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:54.359 postmodern musician and he he said he was all about 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:57.119 the mashing up, in the mixing up of things and 0:23:57.119 --> 0:23:59.520 it was just sort of a really free and creative time. 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:02.040 So he was all about it, right, Yeah, for sure. 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.560 And I mean, like, especially now today the world we 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:07.800 live in, postmodernism has like a really bad name almost 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:11.359 across the board to everybody. But there was definitely a 0:24:11.400 --> 0:24:13.880 time where it was like glorious and beautiful and fun, 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:17.120 and David Byrne was definitely there for that heyday, for sure. 0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:19.800 Can we talk about a couple of these other famous 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:24.800 postmodern works. The Treachery of Images is another one. Uh, 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:27.240 And again I think this was in the modern era technically, 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:29.000 but it was. It was. It was one of the 0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:31.720 first seeds of what was to come. This was from 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:35.000 Renee Marguerite and it is the very famous picture of 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:38.439 a pipe, a smoking pipe with a caption uh in 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:41.560 French says this is not a pipe, but what would 0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:47.439 that be In French. My French speaking friend cinep he 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:52.560 sounded literally like the Google person on or the YouTube translator. 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:56.560