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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

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Speaker 1: and there's Charles W Chuck Bryant. Jerry's here too, and

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Speaker 1: this is Stuff you Should Know postmodernism. Addition, I'm strapping

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Speaker 1: on my ice skates. I know, Chuck, I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about it. This may very well be the most difficult

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Speaker 1: topic we've ever tackled. Is this hard for you too? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's hard for everybody. It's hard for everyone. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: it's very difficult. It's really hard to define. It's really

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Speaker 1: easy to miss characterize things as postmodern and um lump

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Speaker 1: stuff in even though it is technically that. And and and

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Speaker 1: worst of all, it's really easy for people to be

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Speaker 1: snobby to other people about what is or isn't post modernism.

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Speaker 1: So it's yeah, it's gonna be rough. I think that's

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Speaker 1: why I'm a little not nervous, because who really cares, right,

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Speaker 1: it's just a podcast. But uh, just unnerved because philosophical movements,

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Speaker 1: art art movements that have fuzzy boundaries. Uh, it's tough

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Speaker 1: for me. Always has been ideal, a little bit more

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Speaker 1: in the concrete. Uh, So it's gonna be interesting, you know,

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Speaker 1: especially when you know you look at some more I

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Speaker 1: don't know about cynical, but just sort of straightforward definitions

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Speaker 1: of like what is postmodern art? And most people will say, like, well,

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Speaker 1: it's art that happened between nineteen nineteen seventy right now. Wrong. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not wrong, it's an era. Like That's where it

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Speaker 1: gets slippery, Uh, because art is defined by eras, and uh,

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Speaker 1: even though people did things in the different eras that

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Speaker 1: thematically and stylistically apply more to other eras. Like would

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Speaker 1: you call The Godfather a postmodern film? No, but it

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Speaker 1: was made in the postmodern film era precisely. So the

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Speaker 1: differentiation here, then is that it begins. The differentiation here

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Speaker 1: is the postmodernism that we're talking about is not just art.

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Speaker 1: It's not just film, it's not just architecture, is not

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Speaker 1: even just philosophy. We're talking about an entire worldview that

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Speaker 1: all of us collectively share. Most of us, I should say,

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Speaker 1: I think you know the West, you could say, if

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Speaker 1: you want to call it that shares this this culture,

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Speaker 1: postmodernist culture, post World War two, generally. Yeah, some people

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Speaker 1: put it at the seventies, some people put it at

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Speaker 1: the sixties, other other people even go as late as

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Speaker 1: like basically, but it's not just an art movement. It's

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Speaker 1: not just a type of film, it's not just a

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Speaker 1: type of literature. It's it's a it's a way of

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Speaker 1: looking at the world that in turn shapes how we

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Speaker 1: create or exist, or live in or deal with the world.

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Speaker 1: And we do it together. It's culture. But the reason

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Speaker 1: it's so fuzzy chuck compared to other things is because

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Speaker 1: it's it may still be going on right now, and

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Speaker 1: if it isn't still going on right now, it ended

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Speaker 1: so recently that we're still so wrapped up in the

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Speaker 1: turbulent effects of it that it's hard to see which

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Speaker 1: ways up down sideways. So it's really difficult to nail down.

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Speaker 1: But it's really fun to try, I've found. And it's

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing where like they probably won't put

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Speaker 1: it a year marker until thirty years from now on

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Speaker 1: what post postmodernism is, which we'll get to, yeah, totally,

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Speaker 1: and even then it takes you know, it's not a

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Speaker 1: cut and dried thing because of change like this happens

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Speaker 1: over the course of a decade or two, yeah, or

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Speaker 1: or more even for sure, and I would pose it

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Speaker 1: that we're in those decades of change right now. We're

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Speaker 1: in a transition period between postmodernism and what's next. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's one reason why everything is just so

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable right now, in addition to a pandemic being dropped

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Speaker 1: on top of us at a really uncomfortable time. And

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Speaker 1: I would also say, after reading a lot about this stuff, uh,

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Speaker 1: I think art visual art, like let's just say painting.

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Speaker 1: I know there's a lot more to it than that,

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Speaker 1: but as opposed to literature and film, I think the

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Speaker 1: boundaries there are a little more rigid than in other

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Speaker 1: in things like literature and film, where they draw demarcation

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Speaker 1: lines between pre modern modern and postmodern eras a little

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Speaker 1: more succinctly. Like technically anything made these days would be

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Speaker 1: considered postmodern art. Uh, just by the virtue of the

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Speaker 1: fact that it's now, whereas you would not say a

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Speaker 1: film is necessarily right right. Um, so I quit, No,

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Speaker 1: you did great, We're doing great. Just hanging there, man,

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Speaker 1: Just just double up the strength of your fingernails and

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Speaker 1: claw in further. Okay, because I just feel the emails

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Speaker 1: being typed. It's fine, you know what, we could go

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Speaker 1: super postmodern and just totally ignore him like they don't exist,

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Speaker 1: because what is really an email? You know what I mean? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or we could really postmodern email reply would be you know,

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Speaker 1: I read your email and here's what I think and

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Speaker 1: just stop at T H I N. Yeah, that's pretty great.

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Speaker 1: That would be great. So, um, we're this is gonna

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Speaker 1: be fun. We're talking about postmodernism and just this is

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Speaker 1: one of those things where we have to define it

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Speaker 1: from the outset, which is the problem with postmodernism is

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Speaker 1: figuring out how to define it. And before we go

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Speaker 1: any further, every hat I own right now, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: off for Dave Russ, who helped us put this together.

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Speaker 1: He did a great job. He did a wonderful job.

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Speaker 1: Like no, I want it. Was really interested to see

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Speaker 1: what he would do, and he did. He really rose

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Speaker 1: to the occasion, like he did a great job. So

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Speaker 1: he's he kind of started with this um anecdote about

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Speaker 1: the a student of an art professor who asked his

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Speaker 1: class like, you know, what, what is postmodernism? How do

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Speaker 1: you define it? And um, the students said basically something

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Speaker 1: that the professor later ripped off, which is, um, it's

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Speaker 1: where you put quotations around everything. Yeah, it almost feels

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Speaker 1: cynical in a way, Yes, a million percent, like the

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Speaker 1: age of cynicism. Remember the sarcasm of the nineties. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know the right, Yeah exactly, you just did it

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Speaker 1: so Um, all of that, all of that is a

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Speaker 1: dent the fabric, the cultural fabric of of postmodernism. It's

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Speaker 1: it's as we'll see a tearing down, not just institutions

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Speaker 1: and authorities and all that stuff, but other people just

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Speaker 1: doing it as like just the most casual thing in

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Speaker 1: the world, just tearing down. That is the cultural basis

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Speaker 1: of postmodernism. Yeah, Like if someone word to talk about

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Speaker 1: Andy Warhol soup cans, they can say, well, that's his

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Speaker 1: truth in reality. But you would put that in quotes

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Speaker 1: right with your hands at a party. You put truth

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Speaker 1: in quotes, You put reality in quotes. And that's what

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Speaker 1: that student was saying. You put everything in quotes, because

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Speaker 1: the philosophical basis of postmodernism is that there is no

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Speaker 1: such thing as universal truth, there's no such thing as

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Speaker 1: reality like your you could you could, even if you

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Speaker 1: wanted to be a total jerk, you could do soup

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Speaker 1: and quotes and cans and quotes and Andy Warhol in quotes, right, so,

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Speaker 1: and Andy Warhol would love it. He would roll over

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Speaker 1: in his grave, but it would be like a dance

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Speaker 1: move more than something out of agony. Yeah, so so, um,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of what the what the student was saying.

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Speaker 1: You put everything in quotes because nothing is There is

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Speaker 1: no universal truth. And that is where postmodernism broke from

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Speaker 1: its immediate predecessor, which is modernism, which said, no, there's

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Speaker 1: all sorts of universal truths, and that carried on an

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Speaker 1: even longer tradition of the idea that there's universal truths

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Speaker 1: and we can try to find these through different ways, right,

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Speaker 1: And with modernism it was like, let's not use religion,

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Speaker 1: let's use reason, and it's like a post Enlightenment sort

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Speaker 1: of frame of mind where we can figure out these

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Speaker 1: universal truths and we can apply them to our artworks,

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Speaker 1: whether it's literature or you know, uh, any kind of

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Speaker 1: visual art, right right. So um, so with modern art

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Speaker 1: as weird as it can seem, as abstract as it

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Speaker 1: can seem. Um, what they were doing really ultimately at

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Speaker 1: base followed in the tradition of like the Romanticists before them,

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Speaker 1: of the Renaissance painters before them, they were all trying

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Speaker 1: to move towards what's called sublime sensibility, which is this

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Speaker 1: idea that there is a universal truth, There is universal beauty,

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Speaker 1: there is universal like happiness, Like the nature is a

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Speaker 1: universal it's shared in common to all people, exists in

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Speaker 1: and of itself. And they just kind of chose a

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Speaker 1: different way of going after that, rather than painting like

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Speaker 1: cherubs and the most amazing clouds you can possibly come

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Speaker 1: up with, you know, behind the Crucifixion of Christ or something.

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Speaker 1: They tried to evoke it through those shapes and colors

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Speaker 1: and abstract paintings. Um, but they were still at base

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Speaker 1: after the same thing, which was uncovering that universal truth

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Speaker 1: of of like beauty. Right. And then you know, I

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Speaker 1: took of We talked about it before. I took a

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Speaker 1: philosophy class in college that uh both blew my mind

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Speaker 1: and I just didn't even understand. But I tried. I

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Speaker 1: think I actually made an a in it because I

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Speaker 1: tried really, really really hard in that class. Uh No, kids,

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Speaker 1: I tried hard in every class, but especially hard in philosophy.

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Speaker 1: But I remember studying Nietzsche and some of it hitting

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Speaker 1: home a little bit, and that even though Nietzsche was

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Speaker 1: for sure like pre postmodernism as far as uh An

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Speaker 1: era is defined, but had these thoughts of postmodernism in

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Speaker 1: that Nietzsche came along and said, you know what, it's

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Speaker 1: there's there are perspectives. There is not a universal truth

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Speaker 1: because we are all individuals and we all have our

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Speaker 1: own unique perspective on what beauty might be or what

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Speaker 1: truth might be or reality might be. So that I

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Speaker 1: remember that speaking to me some more than I guess

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Speaker 1: the modernist thought, yeah, because it makes sense. It's that

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Speaker 1: that whole kind of thing, like what is the color

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Speaker 1: green to you? It's not the same to me. Or

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Speaker 1: if you look at an apple on a table, and

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Speaker 1: then you move around the table, the apple changes shape.

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Speaker 1: So depending literally on your perspective, you see things differently.

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Speaker 1: And so what Nietzsche was saying is that if you

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Speaker 1: if you take that and multiply it by however many

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Speaker 1: billion people are on the planet, how can there possibly

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Speaker 1: be such a thing as a shared reality? How can

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Speaker 1: there possibly be such thing is a universal truth? There can't.

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Speaker 1: It's just not possible because not only do people see

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Speaker 1: things differently, they have different experiences in their lives that

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Speaker 1: alter perception. Even more minutely, it's just too complex humans

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Speaker 1: and then collectively humanity is too complex to have universal truths.

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Speaker 1: And so that was kind of the basis of his

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Speaker 1: perspective ism that you were talking about. And then in

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Speaker 1: in turn by proxy, he said, well, then that means

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Speaker 1: that all of these meta narratives, um, the stories that

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Speaker 1: we tell ourselves they are they're meaningless. They can't be

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Speaker 1: true either. Yeah, So it's what postmodernism would end up

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Speaker 1: becoming is a rejection of modernism, and that would play

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Speaker 1: out across all kinds of different kind of art forms

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Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about in a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but philosophically as well, because if if science and reason

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Speaker 1: bring us world war and nuclear bombs, then there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be I think a tendency to reject that. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: kind of like I think we talked about before, I

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Speaker 1: don't remember in what episode, but that World War one

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Speaker 1: was like it revealed the full horror of just putting

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Speaker 1: all of your faith in science and reason that like

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Speaker 1: it would lead to technology that led to destruction. And

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Speaker 1: then that was followed up by World War two and

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Speaker 1: the Holocaust. Um, it was followed up by things like

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Speaker 1: lobotomies and phrenology and um and just mass destruction, the

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Speaker 1: nuclear bomb. All this stuff came from the application of

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Speaker 1: science and reason faithfully, unerringly, and so postmodernism said, you know,

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Speaker 1: we need to get rid of this completely and totally.

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Speaker 1: We need to tear it all down and start over.

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Speaker 1: So the whole movement started out as a response, a

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Speaker 1: reactionary response to the horrors of a different movement. And

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Speaker 1: I think anytime you have a movement that's that's born

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Speaker 1: out of um, a recoiling, a repellent response to something,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be reckless. And I think in that sense,

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Speaker 1: postmodernism isn't always has been reckless, because again, it's all

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Speaker 1: about tearing down, and it started with tearing down all

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Speaker 1: of the pillars in the golden calves of modernism. Well,

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Speaker 1: reckless or free both, it's definitely both, all right. I

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Speaker 1: think it's I think it's very much both because I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, as we'll see later on, postmodernism ultimately led

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Speaker 1: to its own horrors that we're living with today, and um,

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Speaker 1: it was out of recklessness. I think. Okay, the digital age,

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Speaker 1: that's part of it, for sure. Should we take a break.

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Speaker 1: I think your dog says, so did you hear that

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Speaker 1: it is National pet Day? Josh? All right, we're back.

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Speaker 1: My dog barked again to signal us, and uh, I

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Speaker 1: guess we should just go ahead and say that. The

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Speaker 1: term itself postmodernism was coined by a French philosopher name

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Speaker 1: Jean Francois. How how would you pronounce that? Is it

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Speaker 1: leo tar, leotard or leotard? Okay? Uh? And this was

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy nine, So you know, people put the

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Speaker 1: postmodern era again with there's they're fuzzy numbers, but I've

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Speaker 1: generally mostly seen sort of mid nineteen fifties to night

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Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies is kind of the beginning. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: so this was a nineteen seventy nine when it was

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Speaker 1: actually defined by Jean Francois, who said, I defined postmodern

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Speaker 1: as incredulity towards meta narratives, which you already talked about

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Speaker 1: these sort of stories that we tell ourselves that sort

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Speaker 1: of give structure to all of our existence. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: like I saw it explained as meta narrative is the

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Speaker 1: blueprint that we carry out like our actions and our lives,

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Speaker 1: and so that like without a blueprint. A plumber just

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Speaker 1: laying pipe. It's just randomly laying pipe. There's no there's

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Speaker 1: no point or reason to what they're doing. But if

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Speaker 1: they're following a blueprint, it gives it. It gives their

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Speaker 1: work meaning, guidance, there's a purpose to it. And so

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Speaker 1: meta narratives can take all sorts of different forms, from

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Speaker 1: the free market is going to um, you know, deliver

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Speaker 1: us all to like this prosperous, happy, progressive future, to

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Speaker 1: um you know, religion explains why we're here to um. Basically,

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Speaker 1: any grand story that's like the big picture, that's a

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Speaker 1: meta narrative. And we've got a lot of them. And

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Speaker 1: postmodernism said, not a single one of those is legitimate.

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Speaker 1: Uh well, I don't know about legitimate, but not a

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Speaker 1: single one of those is should be looked at as

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Speaker 1: the truth. Okay, Like I think they can be considered.

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Speaker 1: But but the problem I think with modernism, or at

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Speaker 1: least as far as the postmodernists goes, is that they

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Speaker 1: laid claim that these are the universal truths. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: think that was a very important, nuanced point that You're right,

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Speaker 1: I retracted my original statement. Okay, we need a ding

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Speaker 1: one point that will be my only ding. I don't know, man,

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Speaker 1: you've been dinging it up already. I just haven't used

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Speaker 1: the sound effect. Okay, but it's you know, we talked

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Speaker 1: about cynicism, it's also about skepticism, right, yeah, so I

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Speaker 1: think that's part of the sarcasm, in the irony when

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Speaker 1: you are sarcastic towards somebody, when you're ironic about you know,

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Speaker 1: when you speak ironically about something, you're expressing skepticism that

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Speaker 1: what that is is true or cool or real or

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Speaker 1: anything whatever whatever it is you're you're you're saying, as

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Speaker 1: long as it's sarcastic or ironic, it's it's a form

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Speaker 1: of skepticism. And that that is kind of like the

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Speaker 1: hallmark cultural um uh move hallmark is good. Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: the cultural hallmark of postmodernism. I think irony and in

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Speaker 1: skepticism and in sarcasm. Okay, I agree with all that

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Speaker 1: ding ding or we need Chris Hardwick on here just

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Speaker 1: to say points, Oh, that's a good one. He what's

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Speaker 1: he doing these days? He could probably do that. I

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Speaker 1: think he's still doing the talking dead. No, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: he does plenty. Yeah, he's a brandon to himself. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's like the Ryan Seacrest of podcasting, that's sure. He

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Speaker 1: probably podcasts though, probably, But I think Chris Hardwick is

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Speaker 1: still the Ryan Seacrest of podcasting. Should we talk about

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Speaker 1: art like painting and stuff. Yeah, yeah, because I think

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Speaker 1: we laid the groundwork here. But let's just re let's

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Speaker 1: just go over this real quick one more time. Postmodernism

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Speaker 1: it's a recoil, repellent response to modernism, which produced all

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Speaker 1: sorts of world wars and the nuclear bomb and was

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Speaker 1: based on authority figures and rigidity and universal truths. And

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Speaker 1: you have to follow this and you have to look

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Speaker 1: at this this way, and if if you paint a

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Speaker 1: different way outside of that, it's not really art. And

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Speaker 1: the art world was one of the very first outside

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Speaker 1: of philosophy to kind of rebel against that, um the

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Speaker 1: idea that there's anybody who could say that's art, that's

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Speaker 1: not art. And one of the first people to really

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Speaker 1: do that was um the data as Marcel du Champ. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So here's the thing with talking about eras of art.

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Speaker 1: If you look at some of Duchamp's work in particular, Uh,

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Speaker 1: we should just go ahead and reference probably one of

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Speaker 1: the most famous which was what he called already made,

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Speaker 1: which was to take in this case a urinal, the

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Speaker 1: you know, not built a urinal, but take a mass

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Speaker 1: produced urinal, signed a name on it, a pen name

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Speaker 1: in the case was our Mutt Mutt and called it

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Speaker 1: Fountain in nineteen seventeen. And this was a piece of art.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at this piece of art, it

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Speaker 1: is decidedly postmodern, but it was made what five to

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Speaker 1: six decades before anyone would define art as postmodern art.

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Speaker 1: And it lives like squarely in the middle. I don't

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Speaker 1: know about the middle, but it lives squarely in the

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Speaker 1: modern art movement. So like the difference between and I

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Speaker 1: read a lot about this between modern art and postmodern

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Speaker 1: art is philosophical. It's also like uh cultural and that

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Speaker 1: it was mainly men who were making the art. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Postmodern art really brought along different cultural perspectives and female perspectives.

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Speaker 1: It was also, I read, very goal oriented, whereas postmodern

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Speaker 1: art cared more about process. Apparently modern art was very

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Speaker 1: very much still goal oriented. Even though they saw it

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Speaker 1: as a rejection of the still life of the bowl

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Speaker 1: of fruit on the table before them, A lot of

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Speaker 1: the work still sort of echoed that kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: and then he had du Shot coming along with his toilet,

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Speaker 1: which is completely postmodern but lives in a modern era,

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Speaker 1: right and and like you were saying, like he he

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Speaker 1: came decades before the postmodern era in exactly the same

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Speaker 1: way that Nietzsche was was laying the foundation for postmoderny

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Speaker 1: and philosophy and culture decades before the postmodern era, to

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Speaker 1: even further back than that. But there's just no way

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Speaker 1: of looking at at Duchamp's work any other way than

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Speaker 1: this is a postmodern artwork, and not just that one.

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Speaker 1: The fountain like that was his like bread and butter,

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Speaker 1: was using these reading mates, and that was a huge

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Speaker 1: foundation of the actual postmodern art movement that came later,

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Speaker 1: which was first of all, tearing down the distinction between

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Speaker 1: in high art and low art, because du Schamp was

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Speaker 1: a serious artist, exhibiting in serious galleries and museums and

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Speaker 1: things like that, but he was also buying urinals, signing

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Speaker 1: them and calling it art. So in one way that

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Speaker 1: makes it like way more accessible to you and me.

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Speaker 1: It makes it less scary, like arts less scary. You

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Speaker 1: don't have to be an expert to come into the

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Speaker 1: art world now, and appreciate art or laugh at art

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Speaker 1: or take your you know, let the art, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: like stop taking life quite so seriously. Um. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, it also the fact that he went

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Speaker 1: and bought something, he paid for something from a plumbing

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Speaker 1: supply company that was mass produced also lead the foundation

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Speaker 1: for guys later like Andy Warhol, who melded consumerism into

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Speaker 1: art to create pop culture, which opened the door for

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Speaker 1: commoditization of art, which then opened the door for what

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Speaker 1: we live in today, which is like art is advertising basically,

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Speaker 1: like there's almost no distinction whatsoever. It's everywhere, and it's

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Speaker 1: high jack to sell things as much as it is

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Speaker 1: to to actually make art or make something beautiful or

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Speaker 1: good or thought provoking. Yeah, and I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: think that the transition to post modern art is really

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Speaker 1: interesting because it opened it to different classes. Modern art

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Speaker 1: was was almost exclusively based in Europe and in Russia,

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Speaker 1: I guess, whereas postmodern art after World War two things really,

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Speaker 1: I mean you could say all of the West basically

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Speaker 1: was taking part, but just sort of outsider art and

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Speaker 1: conceptual art and two things to where we have today.

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Speaker 1: We're like, well, someone will We'll put a pile of

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Speaker 1: sunflower seeds in the middle of the floor and call

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Speaker 1: it art. Uh. That is that is the postmodern sort

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Speaker 1: of rejection of what was already I think a pretty

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Speaker 1: radical departure as far as the art world is concerned

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Speaker 1: with modern art, because when you have people like Jackson

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Speaker 1: Pollock or you know, uh, Picasso or Cuba stuff, there

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Speaker 1: was already. Uh, I think a lot of that stuff

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Speaker 1: was a little bit slower to accept from sort of

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Speaker 1: the traditional you know, pre modern art critics. Right, So

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Speaker 1: postmodern just blew that, blew past it. It definitely did.

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Speaker 1: And then so Warhol comes along and creates pop art

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Speaker 1: and everybody starts definitely riffing on that vibe. But one

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Speaker 1: of the other hallmarks of postmodern art is borrowing and remixing,

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Speaker 1: mashing up other styles, other types of art from different eras,

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Speaker 1: different media, um, and just kind of mixing it together

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Speaker 1: in a brand new way. That's one of the hallmarks

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Speaker 1: of postmodern art as well. Yeah. I love that David

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Speaker 1: Byrne quote Ascent because he's a sort of the quintessential

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Speaker 1: postmodern musician and he he said he was all about

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Speaker 1: the mashing up, in the mixing up of things and

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Speaker 1: it was just sort of a really free and creative time.

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Speaker 1: So he was all about it, right, Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, like, especially now today the world we

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Speaker 1: live in, postmodernism has like a really bad name almost

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Speaker 1: across the board to everybody. But there was definitely a

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Speaker 1: time where it was like glorious and beautiful and fun,

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Speaker 1: and David Byrne was definitely there for that heyday, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about a couple of these other famous

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Speaker 1: postmodern works. The Treachery of Images is another one. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And again I think this was in the modern era technically,

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Speaker 1: but it was. It was. It was one of the

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Speaker 1: first seeds of what was to come. This was from

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Speaker 1: Renee Marguerite and it is the very famous picture of

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Speaker 1: a pipe, a smoking pipe with a caption uh in

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Speaker 1: French says this is not a pipe, but what would

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Speaker 1: that be In French. My French speaking friend cinep he

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Speaker 1: sounded literally like the Google person on or the YouTube translator.

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Speaker 1: Josh said, I did not know you had that as

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Speaker 1: a as a moonlighting job. I do, and I'm making

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Speaker 1: almost no money off of it, but it's still it's

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Speaker 1: a labor of love. But this is a great example

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Speaker 1: of what was to come with post modernism, which is,

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Speaker 1: here's a picture of a pipe, is clearly a pipe,

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Speaker 1: but it says this is not a pipe because perspective, baby,

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Speaker 1: this is that's not my reality. There is no objective truth. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's another thing that postmodernism kind of came along and

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Speaker 1: warned everybody about, is us putting all of our faith

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Speaker 1: and and just casual trust in the images and words

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Speaker 1: that we've created to create our culture. Right, So Margreet

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Speaker 1: was saying, and this is like quintessential postmodernism that this

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Speaker 1: is not a pipe. It's a picture of a pipe.

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Speaker 1: You can't trust it, you can't use it, you can't

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Speaker 1: stuff it with tobacco and smoke it. Don't call it

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Speaker 1: a pipe. It's not really a pipe. And um, that

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Speaker 1: kind of like postmodern thought, where there was no real

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Speaker 1: meaning two pictures, images, words, sounds aside from we ascribed

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Speaker 1: to them. It kind of eventually morphed into this weird

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Speaker 1: thing where we got really comfortable with that, you know,

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Speaker 1: David Byrne idea of remixing everything, of using these different

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Speaker 1: things and these different codes you create new meanings. But

424
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,959
Speaker 1: at the same time we were simulating reality in different ways.

425
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: And so Eventually we started to lose the ability to

426
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: distinguish between reality, like anything approaching what we would call

427
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: like real reality and simulated reality, which was all the

428
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: words and images and pictures that we just kind of

429
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 1: take for granted are real, but actually aren't. They're all

430
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: just symbols um that we've stopped seeing as symbols. And

431
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: so what what postmodernism was warning about, what mcgreet was

432
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: warning kind of reminding us of, ended up subverting itself

433
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 1: and creating an inability in us here living today, to

434
00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: to distinguish between simulated reality and real reality. Because how once.

435
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: I mean, you're a terrible example of this, but the

436
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: average person out there, when's the last time you actually

437
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: went out in the woods. Oh, sure, it's probably been

438
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: a really long time. When's the last time you saw

439
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: a video or an image of the woods into your

440
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: brain you're like, oh, yeah, I've probably been in the

441
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: woods pretty recently. No, you haven't. You haven't been in

442
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: the woods and years. You saw it on TV last week.

443
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: That's the most recent brush with the woods that you've had.

444
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: That's what has been the result of postmodernism. And it's

445
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: interesting that they were originally warning about it and then

446
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: came to kind of throw us, throw the shackle on

447
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: all of us. Yeah. I like this other example because

448
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: I think this, um, I think when the people at

449
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: the time might have seen mcgred's this is not a pipe,

450
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 1: I'm sure like your average person might just say, what

451
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: are you even talking about with this, or somebody might

452
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 1: see that today and say that. But in the in

453
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: the sixties, Dave found this other grade example that very

454
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: much evokes that this is not a pipe, work from

455
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: Joseph uh Co suits uh one in three Chairs, And

456
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: I think this one is more likely to get through

457
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: to someone who doesn't may not typically understand this kind

458
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: of philosophy, which is it's a real folding chair, and

459
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 1: then it's flanked by a black and white photograph of

460
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: that same exact folding chair and then a placard with

461
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: a Dictionary definition of chair. And I think this is

462
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: a little more accessible for your average Joe to maybe

463
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: come up and say, oh, I get what they're doing here,

464
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: Like I might not fully understand it, but like I

465
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: see what they mean. This is a chair, and this

466
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,719
Speaker 1: is a chair, and this is a chair. Plus it's

467
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: not in French. Yeah, exactly that automatically makes it more

468
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: accessible that the average How would you say that in French?

469
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: Do you even though one in three chairs? Uh? Tray chairs?

470
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: Is it? I haven't gotten to that on my YouTube

471
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: channeling yet. Um so now I can't remember what chair is. Um,

472
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: but I'll be some people are going to write in

473
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: and tell us Yeah. But you know what all of

474
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: this did was, in speaking in terms of like this

475
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: kind of visual art is it opened the doors not

476
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: only for different cultures and different people in different classes

477
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: and races and and men and women and all across

478
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: the gender spectrum to open up their minds and create.

479
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: But it was a lot of times it was shocking,

480
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: and it allowed them to really push the boundaries of

481
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: what art could even be, which was a new thing.

482
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: I was reading up. Do you remember the huge controversy

483
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: in the late eighties it turned out to seven I

484
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: didn't remember that, but um with that image piss christ,

485
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: I don't remember that. It was an enormous thing. The

486
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: National Endowment of the Arts got its funding slashed as

487
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: a result because it turned out so this artist I

488
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: can't remember his name, but he did a photo series

489
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: of a crucifix in different like um, different like body fluids,

490
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: like his own blood um. And this one was submerged

491
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: in his own urine um. And it's actually pretty into

492
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: you realize what you're looking at, and it's set a

493
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: lot of Christians, including Jesse Helms off, and they went

494
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: they went crazy on the National Endominant of the Arts,

495
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: that artists lost a bunch of funding. Yeah, it was

496
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: a big deal, and it was it brought to the

497
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: fore this kind of culture clash of no one, especially

498
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: not Jesse Helms can say what's art and what's not art.

499
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 1: This artist has created something and he says this is art,

500
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: it's art, and that in and of itself is a

501
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: very postmodern way of looking at things. And also, you know,

502
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: it turned out the artist himself is like a devout Catholic.

503
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: He didn't mean it blasphemously at all. That was not

504
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: at all. It was I can't remember exactly what his

505
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: purpose of it was, but I don't think he meant

506
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: anything to happen like it happened. But um, but even that,

507
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: that's just beside the point. The point was there was

508
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: there was a fight over what's art. And you know

509
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: a lot of the arch conservatives won that fight by

510
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: asking the National Endowment of the Arts and giving it

511
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: a bad name because it's federally as a fenderally funded agency,

512
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: and so taxpayer money was going into it. Taxpayers who

513
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: didn't think that was art at all didn't want their

514
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: money going to it. And it was quite a big kerfuffle.

515
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: But it was super postmodern while it was happening, right,

516
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: and they're like, what's wrong with a bowl of fruit

517
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: on the table? Can't we just paint that forever? Exactly?

518
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: Everyone loves the buls of fruit. How about some more

519
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: of those Georgia o'key flowers. I love those for some

520
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: reason I can't quite put my finger on. Oh that's funny.

521
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: Uh should we take a break here? Should we talk

522
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: about literature? Then take a break? Uh that's up to you.

523
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: It's up to your your doggie, all right, all right,

524
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: Niko says, go forward with literature. Uh, Modernist. The modernist

525
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: movement with with literature featured people like Joyce and Virginia Wolf.

526
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: And this is again sort of with modern art. Boundaries

527
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: were being pushed in different directions from uh, sort of

528
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: the old school of literary styles. All of a sudden

529
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: you had stream of consciences happening, nonlinear nonlinear narratives happening

530
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: is where free verse poetry was born. But then postmodernists

531
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: came along and they went, oh, you think that's pushing

532
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: the boundaries. Uh, let me introduce you to Thomas Pynchon

533
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: and Joseph Heller and people like this who really took

534
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: things to an in degree, to the point where you

535
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: found that one book that just stopped in the middle

536
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: of the first chapter, over and over. Yeah. There's a

537
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: book by a Tallo Calvino called If on a Winner's

538
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: Night a Traveler. It's from nine. It's a quintessential postmodern

539
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: novel in that it's written in the second person perspective,

540
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: so he talks about you, so you're the main character.

541
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: And it starts out by saying you're about to begin

542
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: reading it. Taalo Calvino's new novel, If on a Winter

543
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: Night a Traveler. Relax, concentrate to spell every other thought.

544
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: So the author is directing you, the reader, to begin

545
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: the novel that you're reading. So you're immediately the character

546
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: like he's writing about you in this page. And then

547
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: it very quickly careens from what you would consider real,

548
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: like the book runs out on page thirty two. In

549
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: the book, reading still goes on. It's just in the

550
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: book that happens. So now you the character have to

551
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,959
Speaker 1: go to the bookstore and you get another version and

552
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: you end up reading ten different beginnings to the same book.

553
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: But the upside of it as you fall in love

554
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: with Ludmila the book the bookstore shopkeeper as well. So

555
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: there's it's it just it's completely out of left field,

556
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: and you could say absurd, and that is quint essentially

557
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: postmodern too. They weren't James Joyce wasn't doing anything quite

558
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,239
Speaker 1: like that. No, not at all. And this is where I,

559
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: you know, I have an appreciation for it. I think

560
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: very clever. I see what you're doing there, But I

561
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: would rather read a good novel to story. So that, Chuck.

562
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: That is a real criticism of postmodernism is everything had,

563
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: everything's meaning is up for grabs, it's up in the air.

564
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: There's no universal truth. And if you if you can

565
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: put meaning in air quotes as well, that that means

566
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: by proxy that everything is meaningless in a certain way

567
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: of looking at it. And so yeah, it's cool. That

568
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: was an interesting thing and it kind of was clever um,

569
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: but it is it. Is it as satisfying, is it

570
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: as meaningful as, like you said, a good novel, um,

571
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: you know, like an actual novel that follows like maybe

572
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: a little more structural rules. Some people would say no,

573
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: but a lot of people would say yes, and they

574
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: would point to the idea that there's this kind of

575
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: nihilistic bent in postmodernism in every form, whether it's visual art, film, um, novels,

576
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: that that makes it less important in a way. And again,

577
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: I personally think it's because postmodernism was born as a

578
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: repellent response to a longstanding thing, and that it was

579
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: immediately it was automatically borne on shaky, reckless ground, and

580
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: that how can you create something beautiful if you don't

581
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: think there is such a thing as beauty? How can

582
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: create something meaningful if you don't think there is such

583
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 1: a thing as meaning? And if there is no such

584
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: thing as meaning, then stop writing because you're just doing

585
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: that for money now at this point right, which I

586
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: think was the goal oriented movement of modern art. It

587
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: didn't specifically say, but what what else would the goal

588
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: be rather than to have a showing and sell paintings? Yes, uh,

589
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: some of the other sort of elements of postmodern literature

590
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 1: one is paradox and randomness. Books like slaughter House five

591
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 1: and Catch twenty two you started seeing um and even

592
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: though there were non linear narratives before, you found stories

593
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 1: that were really told out of order at this point,

594
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: and that even had facts that don't align with one another,

595
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: where you might say, well, that doesn't even make sense

596
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: times according to what I had previously read, like even

597
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: earlier in the same book or chapter. Uh, sometimes purposefully

598
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: obviuskating meeting or disorienting the reader. Uh. And then this

599
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: whole idea of intertextuality, which is in like sort of

600
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: the mash up that David Byrne was talking about, but

601
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: in this case with literature incorporating plot lines and characters

602
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: from other works or other tropes in literary ideas, uh,

603
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: kind of bringing them all into one book. Yeah. Like

604
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: a good example of that is not found in literature

605
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: but in TV. UM in the character of John Munch,

606
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: who's a detective who started out as a detective on

607
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: the TV show Homicide Life on the Street, and then

608
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: that same character appeared on Law and Order SVU. He

609
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: was a recurring long time character on that show. Right,

610
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: Is it the same actor? Yes, same, same actor, same character.

611
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 1: This is part of the same Elsewhere universe theory, Yes, yes,

612
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: it's probably west Fall. Yeah, the Tommy Westfall universe. Yeah.

613
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: John Munch is like one of the fulcrums of that

614
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,959
Speaker 1: universe because he's also been on X Files, he's also

615
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: been on the Wire. Like he's this character that people

616
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,439
Speaker 1: like love and and love to bring into their own show,

617
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: even though they had nothing to do with Homicide Life

618
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: on the Street. And so that's a really good example

619
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 1: of intertextuality. This character keeps popping up in different works

620
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: and it's the same character, and in him appearing there,

621
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: it's saying this show exists in the same universe as

622
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: this show. And yes, you can all trace it back

623
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: to the saying Elsewhere finale, which I think we talked

624
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: about in our Nutso fan Theories episode. Yeah, Tarantina does

625
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: that a lot too with the Vega brothers, and I

626
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: think that was Red Apple cigarettes. Yeah. And there was

627
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: a character in Jackie Brown that was also in uh

628
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: I can't think of his name. One of the FBI guys,

629
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: Michael Keaton played him in Out of Sight, But I

630
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: think that was a recurring character and different without any

631
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 1: real sort of Um, it's not like you know, Alfred

632
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: from Batman appearing in different Batman movies. It's it's sort

633
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: of out of context intertextuality. If that makes sense, it

634
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: makes total sense. And then also Tarantino is a good

635
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: example of postmodernism as far as like pastiche, which is

636
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 1: just such an obnoxious word, but once you look into

637
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: it's basically just borrowing other styles kind of in the

638
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: postmodern sense, mashing them together. So Tarantino was like crazy

639
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 1: about like seventies kung fu stuff for seventies gangster flicks,

640
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: and he would he would use those. He would actually

641
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: take characters who were based on those other eras in

642
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: those other styles and put them all into the same movie,

643
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: into the same universe together. Um, that's pastiche. And that's

644
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: another very postmodern thing. Wes Anderson is another good example.

645
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: His like just on paralleled love of mid century like

646
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: looks and design. That's a pastiche, although it turns out

647
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: he's a post postmodern director, and almost every sense of

648
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: the word. Yeah, I mean, I think pulp fiction is

649
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: very commonly referred to as sort of one of the

650
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: hallmarks of post modern filmmaking, and that not only the

651
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: mash ups, but the non linear storytelling, the good guys

652
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: are bad guys. Bad guys are good guys. The sort

653
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: of rejection of um of purpose, like you know, what's

654
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: in the what's in the briefcase? Like that's that's a

655
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: very non uh. And I think that's why I never

656
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: really cared that much. But I think it's why I

657
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: drove a lot of people crazy because his film goers

658
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: were so trained to have to know what's in that

659
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: briefcase because it should have some sort of meaning, and

660
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: he was kind of turned on its ear a little bit.

661
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: And then everybody copied for the next decade pulp fiction,

662
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 1: and there were so many bad, sort of half rip

663
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: offs made. Yeah, I'm not gonna say any there's one

664
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: I could call out, but I'm not going to. M hm,

665
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,240
Speaker 1: you text it to me or something. I will, But um,

666
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 1: have you seen Severance on Apple TV? Yeah, I'm about

667
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,479
Speaker 1: halfway through. I love it. It's so it's so good.

668
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: That's like a good example of that leaving people wanting

669
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: more and just absolutely not giving it to them like sorry,

670
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: it's it's like, no, there's no resolution. It's just crazy.

671
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: How how strong out you feel after after the last episode. Oh, boy,

672
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 1: I can't wait. All right, I think we should. I'll

673
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: shoot where we gotta take our second break now, Yeah,

674
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: we definitely do. We'll talk a little bit more about

675
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: film and sum this all up. Maybe sure, all right,

676
00:40:36,320 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: we'll be right back and alright. So pulp fiction is

677
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: routinely uh singled out as a postmodern film. The one

678
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 1: that's considered probably the godfather of all of them, um

679
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: is Eight and a Half by Fellini. Frederico Fellini. I've

680
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: never seen it of you. Uh yeah, sure, Godfather. Not

681
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: in the movie since so we don't confuse everybody. I

682
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: think you just did. I think you planted that about

683
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: forty minutes that you might have. Yeah, I've seen eight

684
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: and a half. It's if you've taken any sort of

685
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: film appreciation class in college, you're going to see it.

686
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: It's Fellini's, you know, one of Fellini's masterpieces. The whole

687
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: movie could be described as a metafiction because the film

688
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 1: about making a film. Uh, it's really good. It's it's

689
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: dreamy and trippy and confusing. It's full of a lot

690
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: of dream dream sequences and reality and fiction are blurred.

691
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: Highly recommend seeing Eight and a Half and then like

692
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: reading a lot about it afterward that makes sense about it.

693
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: That's when I'm my favorite types of movies is a

694
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: movie that you can watch and then go find a

695
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: bunch of like, um like film cript on it that

696
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: that explains it or points it out, that just discusses it.

697
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: I love that kind of thing. I finally saw Casa Blanket.

698
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: By the way, Oh great, what do you think you know?

699
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say like medium, um, it was. It

700
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: was really good. I would not put it among like

701
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: the best films I've ever seen or ever made, but

702
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: even as a mainstream film. Yeah, yeah, I mean I

703
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: thought it was really really good, but I definitely didn't

704
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: see like, oh my god, this is the best film

705
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: I've ever seen type of feeling. Yeah. I think it's

706
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: I think people leave out that it's one of the

707
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 1: best mainstream films ever made of the you know, first

708
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: half or yeah, I guess the first half of the

709
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: century or the middle of the century. I would even

710
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: expand it out too. I loved it. I think it's

711
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: just a great movie. But I really enjoyed it. But

712
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: it was I think maybe the expectation it's sort of

713
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: like when I saw it isn't Kane for the first

714
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: time after so much build up. It really delivered on

715
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: that as far as I think, just breaking boundaries of

716
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: filmmaking and raising the bar. And I don't feel like

717
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: Casa Blanket did that. I thought it was kind of

718
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: just a normal, really good movie. Yeah, very normal in

719
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 1: mainstream a good one. So um so eight and a half.

720
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: It's it's like you said, it's a meta, meta narrative basically, UM.

721
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 1: And anytime you see something like dreamy or weird or

722
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: um people play themselves or strange versions of themselves, you

723
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: have stumbled into a postmodern film. UM. A really good

724
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: example of that is basically everything Um. Charlie Kaufman's ever

725
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: written or directed. Sect senecta Key in New York is

726
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: probably one of the most postmodern films ever made. But

727
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: then also so it's like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

728
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: But people are like just truly postmodern in every sinse

729
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,439
Speaker 1: But it's it checks enough boxes that you could say

730
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 1: that's definitely a post modern film. Same with UM being

731
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: John Malkovich's an adaptation. I mean, that's the currency he

732
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 1: deals in. I still haven't seen the most recent one

733
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: with Jesse Plemon's have. I gotta check that out. I'm

734
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: thinking of ending things. Yeah, is that what it's called?

735
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: I think so. I saw the Nicolas Cage movie that's

736
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: coming out a screener good. It is very good, but

737
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: it's it's very postmoderor too like Nicolas Cage plays himself, um,

738
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: and it's just completely off the rails from time to time.

739
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 1: And in a lot of ways it reminded me of Adaptation,

740
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: where like purposefully goes off the rails to like make

741
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: a point like Adaptation did. Um and so it borrowed

742
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 1: from that and it didn't. You know, it's certainly seemed

743
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: that way even more because Nicholas Cage is in it.

744
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: But it's pretty it's pretty good. Movies worth seeing for sure.

745
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: And you know, shout out while we're off track, I

746
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: just saw the Nicholas Cage movie Pig oh yeah, from

747
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: last year about a former chef who was a truffle hunter,

748
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: uh and just trying to find his pig and stuff.

749
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: He should know, listener, I believe because he was a

750
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: movie crush listener. Michael Sarnowski directed that movie. Oh Nat.

751
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: I've heard good things about it. It's fantastic. It's really

752
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: really good. So I will definitely check it out. Then

753
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: all right, let's wrap this up. I guess should we

754
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: talk about I don't know, criticisms. Sure, Also we just

755
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: need to definitely give a shout out. Postmodernism and architecture

756
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: is also a thing. Um like it's shut Gary right,

757
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,959
Speaker 1: it's almost its own track. But it had an even

758
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: more abrupt change than say like film or art did.

759
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: Like it's just it went from minimalist functional design to

760
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: just take everything apart, tear it down and put it

761
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: back together in weird ways. And yeah, Frank Gary is

762
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: the embodiment of the post modern starchitect is what they

763
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: call him. Yeah, And I think if you want to

764
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 1: um a good example, if you want to look at

765
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: a modern versus postmodern, you can look at the two

766
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: Googgenheim's from Frank Lloyd right in New York to Gary's

767
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: in Spain. I was just in New York and went

768
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: to the Googgenheim and saw the Kendinsky exhibit. Highly recommend

769
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: going to that before it closes or anything at the

770
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: Guggenheim because just being in that building is quite an experience.

771
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: Still have never been Oh my god, you're kidding. No,

772
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: it's the best one. It's the best Guggenheim. It's my

773
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: favorite museum in the world. Yeah, because it's You're in

774
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: and out in a couple of hours. Uh, it's not intimidating.

775
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: You just ascend up that circular ramp and see a

776
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: lot of great art over a couple of hours, and

777
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: then you're out of there. And the building itself is

778
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: art very nice. Wul It's like going to the met

779
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: is Uh, intimidating. The Guggenheim is not intimidating. I'm gonna

780
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: get super efficient and watch Pig and go to the

781
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: Googgenheim in the same day. Totally should go to New York.

782
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: Don't watch a movie New York, watch it on the

783
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: plane there you go. I have to really select my

784
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: airline carefully. All right. So, criticisms of postmodernism, like you said,

785
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: it is a bit of a punching bag these days,

786
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: and maybe kind of always has been. But you have

787
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 1: people from both sides of the political spectrum criticizing postmodernism,

788
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,919
Speaker 1: whether it's sort of the old school leftists who think, like, no,

789
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: it's has nothing to do with social progress. All this

790
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: individualism is no good for our movement to conservativism, conservatism

791
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: mm hmm, conservativism, which is, uh, we don't. We do

792
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: not like this hole. There is no right or wrong.

793
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,839
Speaker 1: It's all about your perspective things, because there's definitely right

794
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: and wrong. Everybody, yes, like, how can you ban a

795
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: book when it's not demonstrably wrong for asserting a few

796
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,439
Speaker 1: points that's outside the norm, you know, a very good point.

797
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: So of course they don't like the idea of moral relativism.

798
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 1: But I was I was surprised that the leftists thought

799
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: that until I learned that Leotard himself was basically like, um, yeah,

800
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: there's there's this is this is a this is a strange, new,

801
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: unhappy direction that we're going in, and they laid it

802
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: at the feet of the failure of Marxism to kind

803
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: of bring about like collective social progress. And then the

804
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: response to that was Thatcher's and Reagan's um neoliberal policies

805
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: that basically said, deregulate everything, make as much money as

806
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: you can at the expense of whoever you need to,

807
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: and let's let's go global baby um. And that is

808
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: part and parcel with postmodernism as far as economics is concerned.

809
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 1: And if you're an economist and a philosopher and you're

810
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: looking at postmodernism. Probably to you late capitalism and postmodernism

811
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: are basically interchangeable words. Um. And that's another reason why

812
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: so many many people are so sick of postmodernism, because

813
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: there isn't anything right, there isn't anything wrong, there is

814
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 1: no truth, there is no morality. It's just just get

815
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: as rich as you can is a huge part of it.

816
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: To the commodification of art really kind of laid the

817
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: groundwork for that, and it's permeated everywhere. Right. So now

818
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: people say, Okay, we're sick of postmodernism, we think it's dead.

819
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: What's next? So chuck, what is next after postmodernism? Well,

820
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: I certainly don't know, but you sit along some interesting

821
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: reading for me to ponder, and the general thought is

822
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: that we are in in an era now of and

823
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,399
Speaker 1: again it won't be probably defined until ten to twenty

824
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: years later. But hypermodernism, which is uh, what this article

825
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: calls postmodernism on steroids, where advertising his art and where

826
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: tech companies are the governments of the world or at

827
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: least as influential as the governments of the world and

828
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: the religions of the world, or meta modernism. Um. Which

829
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: is not quite hyper moderism modernism, right, it's sort of

830
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: hearkening back to modernism, yes, but with the with the

831
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: um the advantage of having seen the failures of modernism

832
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: before and then having lived through postmodernism. So it's this

833
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: idea that there is such a thing as as beauty

834
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 1: and truth and nature and that they are important and

835
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: they matter, and there are things we should move towards,

836
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: and that we should be positive and inclusive. So ted

837
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: Lasso is like a cartoonish embodiment of meta modernism. And

838
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: we see this this clash going on right now, chalk,

839
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: Like there's a huge class in like every kind of

840
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: culture war, it's between people who are saying like, no,

841
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 1: we need to keep extracting and consuming, and other people

842
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 1: are like, no, we need to go a different tract

843
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: and like say, save the planet or whatever. And some

844
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: philosophers say this is the split that postmodern ism kind

845
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 1: of broke into. And right now we're figuring out which

846
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 1: direction we're going to go in, you know, save the planet,

847
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 1: uh ruin the planet, Like that kind of black and

848
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: white choice is basically being laid out for us right now,

849
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 1: and that's our place in history, and no one has

850
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: any idea which one is gonna win out. Although some

851
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: people say hypermodernism already has like you just we're just

852
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: too much slaves to our devices, and we're like that

853
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: we've just been co opted by technology too deeply already

854
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: to get ourselves out of it. Other people say not

855
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: so fast, including Ted Lassa. Well, all of the stuff

856
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: that you sent me about meta modernism made me finally

857
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: understand one of my favorite singer, country artist, Sturgill Simpson's

858
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: first record was called Meta Modern Sounds and Country Music,

859
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: And now that title makes more sense to me than

860
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: it ever did, because he is a a country singer

861
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: who sort of defies the modern country singing movement by

862
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: harkening back to another time. Uh he's he's, you know,

863
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: like a progressive, liberal country singer. So that doesn't go

864
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 1: over well in a lot of circles of country music.

865
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: Is that fair to say? I think so. Like when

866
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 1: he got COVID and he was sort of speaking out

867
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: about it. I was reading Fox News comments about this,

868
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: and people were like, who even this this guy? He's

869
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: no country star. I've never even heard of him. If

870
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 1: you addressed him like a deer, that's because they don't

871
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,479
Speaker 1: play him on modern country music stations because he doesn't

872
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: sing about tailgating. Uh. But his first record is called

873
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: Meta Modern Sounds and Country Music, and it's fantastic. He

874
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: sounds like a mashup of Whalen Jennings and George Jones.

875
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: If that tells you where he's coming to? How could

876
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: you go wrong with that? Exactly? With a little bit

877
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: of Joan Baye is thrown in. Yeah, why not so? Uh?

878
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:48,760
Speaker 1: Surgill Simpson is possibly the future, or um bitcoin mining

879
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: is the other future. It's our choice. Everybody who knows

880
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: where we'll end up, but we'll find out, right. So

881
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 1: that was posting watching the surface. Yeah we did, and

882
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: that's the stuff you should know way. Uh. If you

883
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: want to know more about postmodernism, there's a lot to

884
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: go read about it. There's a lot to read about hypermodernism, metamodernism,

885
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:12,399
Speaker 1: post postmodernism. It's really really interesting rabbit holes to go down. Uh,

886
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: you can make a hobby out of it. And since

887
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: I said you can make a hobby out of it,

888
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: it's time for listener mail. I'm gonna follow this up.

889
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: This was about the short stuff about nose breathing and

890
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 1: that you got a toothache from nose breathing. This is

891
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: from a quote qualified dentist working in the uk UH

892
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: named Tom Park. Hey, guys, I'll kind of skip the

893
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: greetings for length, but he goes on to say the

894
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: maxillary maxillary maxillillary, the maxillary sinuses usually referred to just

895
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: as the sinuses sitting next to the nose about in

896
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: the region of your upper cheeks uh, and extend to

897
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 1: the front of your face on either side of the nose.

898
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 1: There very close to the ends of the roots of

899
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 1: your molars, premolars and sometimes canines, where all the nerves

900
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:11,399
Speaker 1: supplying your teeth enter those teeth. When you have sinusitis, uh,

901
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: this can feel like a toothache. Even a couple of

902
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: weeks after the block, no symptoms have settled, and lots

903
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: of people come to the dentist around wintertime with toothaches,

904
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 1: which is ultimately put down to this phenomenon. I had

905
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 1: it myself once and the jog I went on was agonizing,

906
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: and my empathy for my patients grew considerably. This can

907
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: also occur when you read in very cold air through

908
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 1: your nose if that air then goes into the sinuses,

909
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: but it's usually more transient. I hope this helps. Perhaps

910
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: Josh should check with his own dentist to see if

911
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: he has cavities that need managing. Well, this was like

912
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: a decade or so. Go what's the dentist name? The

913
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: qualified dentist, Tom Park, Thank you tom. Um. This was

914
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: at least no, this is probably more like, oh my god,

915
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: twenty years ago when it happened. Thankfully, I definitely did

916
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 1: have a cavity that needed to be filled back there. Um,

917
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 1: But I went to the dentist recently, chuck and get

918
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: this my um my dentist said that she's going to

919
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: need to raise my sinus, and I was like, how

920
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 1: do you raise a scientist? She said, well, they used

921
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: to do it with the hammer and chisel. We still

922
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:19,919
Speaker 1: got the hammer and chisel, but we have a better

923
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: way of doing it now that's less painful. But they

924
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: used to go in and put like a chisel up

925
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: under like your scientists, and then tap it and actually

926
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: raise your scinus. It sounds medieval quote puelpe fiction. Yeah,

927
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to because I need like a little

928
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: bit of bone put back there, and they can't do

929
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 1: it without raising the sinus. Man, I'll keep you posted.

930
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: I'll be without my tooth man. What's going on with us?

931
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, like we were genetically um conferred with

932
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: with terrible teeth I think. And by the way, Tom

933
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: Parkossa says, by the way, also your description of the

934
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,399
Speaker 1: audience at Manchester you didn't clap in all the very

935
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: end made me laugh out loud as a man, and

936
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: Cunie and myself I can tell you that we are

937
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: not easily impressed. So good on you for earning that

938
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: clap and that from a dentist, Tom Park, go to

939
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 1: Tom Park. If you're anywhere in the UK, you should

940
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,439
Speaker 1: make that trip to see Tom. He's got the empathy.

941
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: It's right. He loves ted Lasso loves uh. If you

942
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: want to be like Tom Park and right in about

943
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:26,720
Speaker 1: something we talked about. We love that kind of stuff.

944
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: And somebody comes back and crosses a T or dots

945
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 1: and I or eds an ellipse, even although we don't

946
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: like the ellipses that much. Uh. And you can put

947
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:40,320
Speaker 1: that all into an email and send it off to

948
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:46,879
Speaker 1: stuff Podcasts at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should

949
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 1: Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts,

950
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 1: my heart Radio visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts,

951
00:56:53,480 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Eight