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Speaker 1: Um, what's uh, Coco my Chanel. That's not a very

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Speaker 1: good introduction. What's What's what's Coco Cosack? What's Coco? My

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Speaker 1: Courtney co Sack our guest for today on Behind the Bastards,

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Speaker 1: a podcast about the worst people in all of history

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Speaker 1: that this week is talking about Coco Chanelle Courtney. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the program. Thank you. I am honored by this alliteration.

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Speaker 1: This is great. Yeah, we worked really hard on it.

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Speaker 1: First off, it's been a bit since you've been on.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations on the engagement. Thank you. Yeah, that is getting

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Speaker 1: married is widely considered to be the second most significant

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Speaker 1: bond two people can engage in the most significant, of course,

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Speaker 1: being podcast partners. And this is Sophie and I's fifth

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Speaker 1: anniversary of doing the show. I just upstaged your engage

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Speaker 1: anniversary to you, guys. No, this is why US is

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Speaker 1: like six months old. Um yeah, congratulations, coordinate. What do

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Speaker 1: you know about the fashion industry, the world of high fashion?

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Speaker 1: You're always so well dressed, as Sophie said, that's why, Uh,

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Speaker 1: that's why I was shocked that someone thinks I'm well dressed.

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Speaker 1: You always look amazing. Thank you. It is very a

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Speaker 1: low maintenance effort, and I know nothing about fashion honestly.

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Speaker 1: That is that is appropriate because that is the kind

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Speaker 1: of fashion that was pioneered by the guests or the

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Speaker 1: subject of this week's episode, Coco Chanel. Um. The other

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Speaker 1: thing she pioneered was being a Nazi collaborator. So mixed bag, Courtney,

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Speaker 1: do you know much about Is she someone you know

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Speaker 1: much about or is it just sort of like a

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Speaker 1: name on a brand, which I think is the case

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Speaker 1: for most people. I think it's Yeah, it's the brand.

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Speaker 1: It's like the vibe, it's the Chanel number five, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's so fascinating because having gone through this, we're about

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Speaker 1: to start. But like the act the fact that she Now,

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Speaker 1: like when you say Chanelle, you think rich people spending

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Speaker 1: way too much money on clothing and perfume, right, you

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Speaker 1: think like walking into a really high end mall, you

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Speaker 1: think like a six thousand dollars pants suit, like that

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Speaker 1: sort of shit. I get Like the second you say

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Speaker 1: the word Chanelle, a smell that's what happens for Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that is, to be honest, like, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: a testament to her success. She has about the saddest,

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Speaker 1: bleakest early life story we have ever covered on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: You you cannot start lower than Coco Chanel starts life.

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Speaker 1: Um yeah, I mean again, this is Behind the Bastards.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't end in a good person, but we're all

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Speaker 1: going to be kind of rooting for her at the

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Speaker 1: start of this here Coco, Baby, Coco, Baby, Coco. So

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Speaker 1: my considered opinion, Courtney, after I don't know five years

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Speaker 1: of Behind the Bastards, is that we can kind of

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Speaker 1: broadly file away nearly all of our subjects into two categories.

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Speaker 1: Category one is people who suck complete ass, and category

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Speaker 1: two is people who still suck complete ass but are

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Speaker 1: also impressive in some way. Right. So, for example, Choochescu,

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Speaker 1: the dictator of Romania, just sucked complete ass, right, l

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Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard sucked ass, but he was also incredible, right,

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Speaker 1: he just had some amazing talents. Yeah, just wonderful author.

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Speaker 1: I like the way personally he summoned the Antichrist in

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Speaker 1: the desert by masturbating with the guy who invented rocketry.

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Speaker 1: But well, there's a lot of oh yeah, quite, We've

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Speaker 1: got some episodes on it this week. Our bastard is

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Speaker 1: from the sucked complete ass but was also objectively impressive category.

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Speaker 1: That is Coco Chanel in a nutshell, She's an incredibly

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Speaker 1: impressive person. Um, terrible, but very impressive. So what's your

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Speaker 1: quick question on that scale of after five years of bastards? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: How many have this tragic early life? Like? Is this

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Speaker 1: really a case for more social programs? A decent number

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Speaker 1: of them? You know, we talked aout like Saddam's early

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Speaker 1: life was so bleak that he had to like hold

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Speaker 1: his teacher at gunpoint to learn how to read. Oh god, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Hitler's early life was a nightmare. You know. Hitler's a

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Speaker 1: really really tough childhood. Um, I would you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: never going to be I don't know, Like there's this

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Speaker 1: there's this thing going on. A colleague of mine, Will Summer,

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Speaker 1: who has covered a lot of you know, the same

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Speaker 1: kind of dysinfobeats and stuff for putting on qan On

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Speaker 1: just wrote a book about it. Um. Gave an interview

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Speaker 1: to I think Jacobin recently where he was like, well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the problems we have with qan On

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be happening if there was like socialized medicine in

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Speaker 1: this country and people could rely on good mental healthcare,

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Speaker 1: and I feel I'm mixed about that. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to like put everything on because I think that all

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Speaker 1: that can kind of put the onus on, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's mental illness that causes these problems, And I actually

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Speaker 1: don't think the nut of these, like our most bastardry

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Speaker 1: is mental illness. For one thing, if I get a

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Speaker 1: sense that, like we're writing about someone who is just

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Speaker 1: mentally ill, even if they did shitty things, I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna like focus on them. Like I don't think Hitler

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Speaker 1: was mentally ill. I don't think Saddam was, I don't

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Speaker 1: think l Ron Hubbard was. Like they're just shitty people,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, but like Kanye, you're not like reporting

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Speaker 1: on another yeah, exactly, Like Kanye is a bad person,

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Speaker 1: but also a lot of his badness is due to

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Speaker 1: the fact that he is a deeply sick, unmedicated person.

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Speaker 1: And like, I don't want to yeah, I feel like

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Speaker 1: ways about that. This is all very complicated and beyond

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Speaker 1: the competence of a guy who professionally makes dick jokes

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Speaker 1: on the internet. So I'm not gonna but I will

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Speaker 1: say I do think there is a significant case for

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Speaker 1: d Like I think there is a case for you

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Speaker 1: have fewer people like Coco is somebody who because of

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Speaker 1: how rough or upbringing is, she grows up hard as

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Speaker 1: fuck um and kind of and and I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people would have been less hardened and less

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Speaker 1: cruel and maybe less motivated in ways that led them

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Speaker 1: to bastardry if they had been able to rely on

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Speaker 1: like sufficient food and stable housing and that sort of

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Speaker 1: stuff when they were little kids. I don't think that's

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Speaker 1: a non But also, I will say most of our bastards,

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Speaker 1: it's far more common for us to have a bastard

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Speaker 1: who like grows up rich than it is to have

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Speaker 1: a bastard who grows up poor and desperate. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know where to take this. I

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Speaker 1: have no like solid stance on this shit. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes people just suck. Sometimes people suck

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Speaker 1: and they make great fashion, you know, they make a

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Speaker 1: great fashion. Yeah, So I have to before we start,

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Speaker 1: I want to make a note about the providance of

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Speaker 1: most of the information that we're going to be talking

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Speaker 1: about today. Because Coco Chanelle was born into gut riching

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Speaker 1: poverty and a time and place in which record keeping

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Speaker 1: was a lot less robust than it is today. So

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Speaker 1: we're heavily reliant on her own memories for information about

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Speaker 1: her early life before she became famous, and most of

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Speaker 1: this is info that she gave to biographers in fashion

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Speaker 1: industry journalists decade decades after it happened when she was famous.

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Speaker 1: She is a veteran liar. She was an incredible liar,

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Speaker 1: and she would often lie about the same thing several

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Speaker 1: times within an interview. For every significant development in her childhood,

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Speaker 1: there are two or three contradictory stories, all of which

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Speaker 1: you're based on things that she said. So the two

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Speaker 1: books that are going to be the bulk of my

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Speaker 1: sources for these episodes are Coco Chanelle, The Life and

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Speaker 1: Legend by Justine Picardy, which covers pretty exhaustively all of

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Speaker 1: the contradictory claims about her past. It provides really good context,

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Speaker 1: but it's also really frustrating because she'll tell you one

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Speaker 1: story and then another, and it's like, well, I have

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Speaker 1: no way to know which of these is true, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, what the fuck? My other source is Sleeping

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Speaker 1: with the Enemy by how Vaughan, which suggests Vaughan is

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Speaker 1: the guy who reported on her Nazi ties, and he

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Speaker 1: basically just kind of like picks what is probably the

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Speaker 1: likeliest version of her story and goes with that, but

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Speaker 1: he doesn't really give you context on the other things.

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Speaker 1: He claimed. I'm going to be kind of mixing both

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Speaker 1: of these narratives up in order to try and give

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Speaker 1: you the best context I can. So the official record

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Speaker 1: states that Coco was born Gabrielle Chasnell on August nineteenth,

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty three, and most what is most commonly referred

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Speaker 1: to as a poorhouse in the town of Saumer her mother,

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Speaker 1: and this is in France, by the way. Obviously, her mother, Eugenie,

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Speaker 1: is about twenty years old when she has Gabrielle, and

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Speaker 1: her father is a guy named are Albert, and he

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Speaker 1: was twenty eight years old. And as you might have

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Speaker 1: guessed from the fact that she was born in a poorhouse,

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Speaker 1: they did not come from money. Gabrielle was delivered into

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Speaker 1: this world members of the Sisters of Providence, which were

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Speaker 1: an order of nuns who ran a series of these

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Speaker 1: poorhouses across France. Basically all social welfare programs are run

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Speaker 1: by the Catholic Church in France. In the eighteen hundred

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Speaker 1: likely right like there's not You're not going to like

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Speaker 1: a government poorhouse. Generally, you're something that the church is running.

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Speaker 1: As an adult, Cocoa didn't like to talk about her

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Speaker 1: birth and her early life, but Justine Piccardi notes one

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Speaker 1: story that she told often enough that we can probably

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Speaker 1: glean something from it. Quote. She did occasionally mention a

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Speaker 1: train journey that her mother had undertaken just beforehand before

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Speaker 1: her birth, in search of her elusive father. What with

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Speaker 1: the clothes of that time, she remarked to her interviewer,

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Speaker 1: with her customary circuitous vagueness, I suppose no one could

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Speaker 1: see that she was about to have a baby. Some

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Speaker 1: people helped her. They were very kind. They took her

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Speaker 1: into their home and sent for a doctor. My mother

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Speaker 1: didn't want to stay there. You can get another train tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: the people said, to soothe her, you'll find your husband tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: But the doctor realized that my mother wasn't ill at all.

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Speaker 1: She's about to have a bab he said. At that point,

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Speaker 1: the people who had been so nice to her were furious.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to throw her out. The doctor insisted that

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Speaker 1: they take care of her. They took her to a

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Speaker 1: hospital where I was born. Oh so you get a

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Speaker 1: lot about the culture. Right, this is a sick woman.

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Speaker 1: Let's say, oh she's pre Fuck this bitch, she's pregnant malone.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's my nightmare. Yeah, it's pretty rough. Like I said,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't start much harder than Coco's early life. So,

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Speaker 1: depending on who you ask, the name Chassnell, because again

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Speaker 1: her original name is not well, the name on her

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Speaker 1: birth certificate isn't Channell. Depending on who you ask, this

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Speaker 1: is either because Chassnell is just a misspelling or it's

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Speaker 1: an earlier medieval version of Chanel. We don't really know.

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Speaker 1: Either is pretty reliable or pretty possible. Interestingly enough, Gabrielle's father,

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Speaker 1: the son of a peddler, had been born himself into

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Speaker 1: a poorhouse in eighteen fifty eight and also had his

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Speaker 1: name misspelled on his certificate, but in a different way.

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Speaker 1: It was listed as Charney. So it's likely that, just

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Speaker 1: like nuns aren't great at reading in the eighteen eighty,

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Speaker 1: it's just been involving this whole time. Yeah they're not. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just like a bunch of fucking half illiterate nuns

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Speaker 1: handling healthcare because no one else is going to do it.

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Speaker 1: So Coco's father, gab Gabrielle. At this point, her father, Albert,

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Speaker 1: made his living such as it was, by selling junk

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Speaker 1: on street corners. He's literally like a trash dealer, right,

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Speaker 1: Like he's kind of like finding whatever he can and

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Speaker 1: selling it for what he can. He's got a little

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Speaker 1: horse drawn cart and he's like taking goods from town

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Speaker 1: to town. Gabrielle's parents were eventually wed about fifteen months

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Speaker 1: after her birth, but there this was not a stable life,

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Speaker 1: so she's not She is born out of wedlock. Right.

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Speaker 1: They're not married when she gives birth, but they do

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Speaker 1: get married soon after. But her dad is not in

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Speaker 1: the picture often he either just doesn't care about having

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Speaker 1: a kid or is just so married to this traveling

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Speaker 1: salesman life that he's gone basically all the time. The

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Speaker 1: junk is just so important. The junk's calling me, honey,

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Speaker 1: you can't you can't lock me down. I got it

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Speaker 1: so trashed on the street. The junk is his art. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's very funny. I mean it's not. It's tragic, but

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00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,640
Speaker 1: it is kind of funny. Um. So, her father's gone

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Speaker 1: all the time, and in order to like survive, Coco

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Speaker 1: and her mom have to live with relatives. Um, and

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Speaker 1: these this is not you don't get the feeling. This

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Speaker 1: is a super close family. Like a lot of times

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Speaker 1: when they're living with an aunt or an uncle, it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: what else are we gonna do? You know, we can't

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Speaker 1: we can't kick her out in the street, but we

225
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Speaker 1: don't really want her here. Everything everybody's poor as shit.

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Speaker 1: She had numerous brothers and sisters. Her youngest brother, Augustine,

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Speaker 1: died as an infant in eighteen ninety one. All the

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Speaker 1: evidence suggests that Coco's father was basically absent most of

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Speaker 1: the time, but she had a habit later on of

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Speaker 1: claiming that she was his favorite and that he had

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Speaker 1: given her her nickname Coco because he disliked the name Gabrielle.

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Speaker 1: This is not true. We'll talk about where the name

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Speaker 1: comes from a little bit later. She just lied about

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Speaker 1: her dad loving her for reasons that I shouldn't have

235
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Speaker 1: to like talk about, right, Like, that's that's bleak. It's

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00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,360
Speaker 1: important to note, but like, like, yeah, you can't throw

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00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:28,160
Speaker 1: shade on somewhat for that. It's understandable. Um, it may

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Speaker 1: be true that after one trip away from home for work,

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Speaker 1: her father gave her a present she talked about. There's

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Speaker 1: present that he gave her a lot um. It also

241
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 1: tells you a lot about the time because the present

242
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,840
Speaker 1: was a human knucklebone that had been turned into a pinholder.

243
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,040
Speaker 1: There's just bones all over there. This is like you

244
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,160
Speaker 1: can still hang out in Paris if you wind up

245
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Speaker 1: in some markets and find human bones on sale. I

246
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,240
Speaker 1: have been there. I didn't buy any bones. I don't

247
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,920
Speaker 1: engage in the human bone trade. But it's not. If

248
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Speaker 1: you're going to buy human bones and you have cash

249
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Speaker 1: to spare, you can find like some monks, skulls and

250
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,920
Speaker 1: shit in markets in Paris. It's doable. Don't do this,

251
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,920
Speaker 1: but you can, That's all I'm saying. Um. So this

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Speaker 1: knucklebone that she gets from her dad has like the

253
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,680
Speaker 1: Eiffel Tower printed on one side and Notre Dame on

254
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,200
Speaker 1: the other, which is so it's like some weird turist

255
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,480
Speaker 1: shotsky made out of human remains. Says again, so much

256
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,600
Speaker 1: about the late eighteen hundreds. Also just Paris, right, yeah,

257
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,920
Speaker 1: and Paris and stuff they love easy to get bones, right,

258
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,360
Speaker 1: there's bones all over the fucking place. Um. Now, Coco

259
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,720
Speaker 1: is a weird fucking kid. Um. She is kind of

260
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 1: goth as fuck, and so when she gets this knuckle bone,

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00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,520
Speaker 1: she buries it in a cemetery as an offering to

262
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Speaker 1: the dead. Um, which is fucking rad. Look, it's hard

263
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:52,400
Speaker 1: not to love little kid Coco, and by age six,

264
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 1: she would later claim she spent all of her free

265
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Speaker 1: time in a graveyard like that is her playground as

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Speaker 1: a kid graveyard. Yes, she's very Wednesday Adams. Yes, she

267
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 1: told one biographer. Every child has a special place where

268
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Speaker 1: he or she likes to hide, play and dream. Mine

269
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,640
Speaker 1: was an Auvergine cemetery. I knew no one there, not

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Speaker 1: even the dead, And yet the dead seem to come

271
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Speaker 1: alive for her there, although they remained as silent as

272
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Speaker 1: the graves. I was the queen of this secret garden.

273
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Speaker 1: I loved its subterranean dwellers. The dead are not dead

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Speaker 1: as long as we think of them. I would tell myself,

275
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I kind of love that. She's kind

276
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,760
Speaker 1: of a dope kid. Yeah, she is basically a Pixar

277
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,960
Speaker 1: protagonist at this point in her life. Let's get the

278
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,200
Speaker 1: early Coco Chanelle movie, The Gabrielle. Yeah, you'll have to

279
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:47,120
Speaker 1: leave out the Nazi stuff. Yeah, but her early life.

280
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Speaker 1: It is hard not to be on this kid's side

281
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Speaker 1: right now. She is particularly drawn in her fucking cemetary

282
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Speaker 1: wanderings to two one labeled tombstones, which she would adorn

283
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 1: with flowers in the springtime. She had several ragdalls she

284
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 1: made for herself, and she would bring them with her

285
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 1: to the graves. She later said, I wanted to be

286
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,760
Speaker 1: sure that I was loved, but I lived with people

287
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 1: who showed no pity. I like talking to myself and

288
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,360
Speaker 1: I don't listen to what I'm told. This is probably

289
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,560
Speaker 1: due to the fact that the first people to whom

290
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:23,720
Speaker 1: I opened my heart were the dead. A creepy yeah again,

291
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 1: goth is hell. It's hard to like see her transition

292
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,760
Speaker 1: from like being this epic Goth Wednesday Adam's figure child

293
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 1: to the clutching your pearls fabric lady who Nazi. We'll

294
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,680
Speaker 1: get to this. The sad truth is, like so many people,

295
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,840
Speaker 1: she falls in with a bad crowd, and that bad

296
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:54,760
Speaker 1: crowd is the British royal family. But I'm getting ahead

297
00:16:54,800 --> 00:17:02,640
Speaker 1: of myself, so it's impossible to say which of these

298
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,679
Speaker 1: stories she tells about her childhood are in fact true,

299
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 1: but it is worth noting that death would have been

300
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,159
Speaker 1: one of the first reality she had to confront. Not

301
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,960
Speaker 1: only did her little brother die when she was like

302
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,760
Speaker 1: eight or nine, her mother is sickly for her entire

303
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 1: early childhood. Some of her Coco's earliest memories are watching

304
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,399
Speaker 1: her mom cough blood onto handkerchiefs. Probably some sort of tuberculosis.

305
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,200
Speaker 1: We don't really know obviously, Like you're not going to

306
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 1: get a great, you know, diagnosis back then. Not good

307
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,840
Speaker 1: labs back then. Yeah, they just said she's got the consumption.

308
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,679
Speaker 1: She coughs a lot, like it could have been a

309
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:38,760
Speaker 1: thousand different things. Tuberculosis is not unlikely. As a result

310
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,560
Speaker 1: of kind of this, The color red features particularly in

311
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,920
Speaker 1: her early recollection. She would always be fascinated by red.

312
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,679
Speaker 1: Coco often recalled this story to interviewers from when she

313
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 1: was five and her mom had to move her and

314
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,400
Speaker 1: her siblings into the house of an uncle. We were

315
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,000
Speaker 1: shut away in a room covered in red wall paper.

316
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 1: To begin with, we were very well behaved. Then we

317
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,120
Speaker 1: noticed that the red wallpaper was very damp and could

318
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 1: be peeled off from the walls. So, being kids, the

319
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,679
Speaker 1: girls start to pull strips of wallpaper off and they

320
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,880
Speaker 1: leave the room eventually like completely stripped bare. The pleasure

321
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 1: was sublime, but eventually their mother found them, and mom

322
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,200
Speaker 1: doesn't like say anything, but she realizes, like they've destroyed

323
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,600
Speaker 1: this room basically that belongs to a relative. So her

324
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,880
Speaker 1: earliest memory is like gleefully ripping all of this wallpaper off,

325
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 1: and then her mom sees it and just starts sobbing

326
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 1: on the bed because they're yeah, it's fucked up, Like

327
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:37,920
Speaker 1: this is such a sad childhood. She's like a roll

328
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 1: doll character, Like it's just like endless sadness. Channel's mother

329
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 1: dies of tuberculosis or something similar in eighteen ninety five,

330
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,359
Speaker 1: when Coco is twelve. Her mom is thirty three years old.

331
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,320
Speaker 1: She dies in so all of the kids are like

332
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 1: with her in this freezing bedroom in the City of Breathe,

333
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 1: and her mom just like dies trying to get warm,

334
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,879
Speaker 1: and Coco and her siblings find her, but there's no

335
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,199
Speaker 1: other adults in the house, and we don't actually know

336
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,359
Speaker 1: how long they're alone with their mom's freezing corpse before

337
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,359
Speaker 1: other adults find them and take them away. She would

338
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 1: never talk about this, Oh, but God, hard to imagine

339
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:27,400
Speaker 1: a greater trauma. Oh that is terrible. It's fucked up. Yeah,

340
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 1: like I saw my grandma die, but it was the

341
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 1: opposite a very beautiful experience. This sounds horrible, and you're like,

342
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,640
Speaker 1: one way to survive just dies in front of this

343
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 1: fucking nightmare. So Dad again is like out and about.

344
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:44,920
Speaker 1: He comes back every now and then, but as soon

345
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 1: as mom dies, Dad is like, this is my opportunity

346
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 1: to abandon my family because once and for all again,

347
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,440
Speaker 1: just as sort of like being a single mother, you

348
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 1: would get fucking spit on by people. It's also assumed

349
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 1: that like, well, if you shouldn't be a single father

350
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 1: raising kids, if like your wife dies, you hand your

351
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,400
Speaker 1: kids over to somebody else like that. That's not how

352
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,640
Speaker 1: everyone did it, but that was not an uncommon way

353
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,200
Speaker 1: to handle the problem at the time, right um and

354
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 1: and al Albert showed no real inclination to raise his family.

355
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,719
Speaker 1: So he he's like the junk, you guys, I'm sorry, kids,

356
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 1: it's the junk. He has two sons and like three

357
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,840
Speaker 1: daughters at this point, and he he sells his sons. Basically,

358
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,760
Speaker 1: he basically finds he finds a farm that will like

359
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 1: take them, and I think he probably gets like it's

360
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 1: on the verge of human trafficking. It's one of these like,

361
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,120
Speaker 1: if you teach my kids how to do farm work,

362
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: they'll work for you if you let them live here.

363
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 1: But like it's sketchy, um. But since you know, girls

364
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,880
Speaker 1: are not useful um in this period in time, by

365
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: the by the standards of a guy named are Albert Um.

366
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 1: And so he sends Coco and her sisters off to

367
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 1: a fucking nunn. Ray. He's like, go to this or

368
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 1: phage orphanage run by nuns. Like I have no ability

369
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 1: to profit off of you. So the extant evidence that

370
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 1: in prostituting them out, I would say, yes, he definitely

371
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 1: didn't pick the absolute worst option. So he basically takes

372
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 1: whatever money he has left and then fucks off to

373
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 1: the United States to find his fortune, and Coco never

374
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,879
Speaker 1: sees him again. This is the end of her dad

375
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 1: being a factor in her life. She was never able

376
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 1: to really admit this, certainly not to biographers and maybe

377
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 1: not to herself. She would make up stories as an

378
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: adult about all these times her dad had come to

379
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,439
Speaker 1: visit her while she was being raised by the nuns.

380
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,120
Speaker 1: She would also lie regularly and say that he had

381
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 1: left her with her aunts who had raised her. She

382
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: was not raised by her aunt. She's raised by nuns.

383
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 1: There's documentation of this, but you can kind of get

384
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 1: again in the story she tells that are not true

385
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 1: about her childhood. You can't get pieces of the truth. So,

386
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: for example, even though she would claim it was her

387
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 1: aunts who had raised her, she would talk about the

388
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: way they raised her and how stern they were, And

389
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 1: you can assume she's talking about the nuns, right, She's

390
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 1: just kind of pretending they were a family. So she

391
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: would say stuff like, my aunts were good people, but

392
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 1: absolutely without tenderness. I was not loved in their house.

393
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 1: I got no affection. Children suffer from such things, and

394
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: I don't have truth. Yeah, I don't need to fact

395
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: check that last part. I trust that she was suffering.

396
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 1: Coco had a lot of family in the area. She

397
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 1: did have aunts, and she's not so this and again,

398
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: this kind of tells you something about the way in

399
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: which life was back then. When you are a kid

400
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: whose parents die or leave you and you're in like

401
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: one of these orphanages run by nuns, you still have

402
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: family in town. She still has connections with her family,

403
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: so she's not isolated entirely. But it's also like nobody

404
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,239
Speaker 1: can really handle the burden of taking care of her,

405
00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: so the nuns are going to do it. Yeah. Other

406
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 1: statements she made later in life hint at her real

407
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 1: feelings towards how this childhood went. Quote from my earliest childhood,

408
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: I've been certain that they have taken everything away from me.

409
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 1: That I'm dead. I knew that when I was twelve.

410
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 1: You can die more than once in your life. Oh god, yeah,

411
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: it's fucked up. I'm really curious if these people are

412
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: going to show up again, you know, in twenty years

413
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: or whatever, when she's famous, and they're gonna be like, oh, member,

414
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,120
Speaker 1: when we took care of you. I'm gonna be honest. Yeah,

415
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean, she she definitely has like some family who

416
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,719
Speaker 1: get money from her. Her dad never shows back up.

417
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: I kind of think he just like fucked off and

418
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: died in the US trying to strike it rich or something.

419
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: You know, people people died for no reason back then.

420
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,479
Speaker 1: We'll probably never know. He does seem like the kind

421
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 1: of guy who would come back for money. Yeah, I mean,

422
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 1: I'm sure he would have if he could have. But

423
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: you know what, never dies, Courtney. The need for capitalism

424
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: and ads. That's right, capitalism so far cannot be killed.

425
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,959
Speaker 1: You know, stay tuned, pay attention to this spot in

426
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: case that changes. But no one's did it yet. Ah,

427
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: those ads were great, a real tribute to the immortality

428
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 1: of the market economy. So it is worth digging into

429
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: more what kind of place this orphanage was and what

430
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: sort of things Coco and her siblings learned there. Later

431
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,239
Speaker 1: in life, she would tell a story of sitting with

432
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: other children in a wooden pew in the church. Anne

433
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 1: would poke her with a stick whenever she's saying the

434
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: ave Maria too loudly. She recalled that a hunchback man

435
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: was sitting nearby and told a biographer, I'd have liked

436
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 1: to sit down beside him and touch his hump and

437
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: tell him that it didn't matter, he could still be loved.

438
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's sweet. That is sweet. Yeah. So again

439
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: you get this feeling that not only is she didn't tenderness,

440
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: but she wants to show it and just is raised

441
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,959
Speaker 1: in an environment where, like they believe, kids are fundamentally

442
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: evil would have to be treated strictly in order to

443
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: bring them up properly. She just has no outlet to

444
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,199
Speaker 1: express or receive affection as a little kid, which is

445
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: not good for kids. Spoiler for those of you who

446
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: have kids, don't raise them this way. It doesn't go well.

447
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: When it comes to what kind of thing she learned

448
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: from the nuns, well, we know that she got what

449
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: was for the time a pretty decent education. In the basics.

450
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: She learned how to read. She learned not a ton

451
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: of arithmetic because she was a girl, but she learned

452
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: enough that she was able to get by. As an adult.

453
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: She runs a large business, So the basics of her

454
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: education are about as good as you could hope for

455
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: at the time given her socioeconomic level. Outside of that,

456
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: the curriculum was rather less wholesome. I'm going to quote

457
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: now from how Vaughan's book. At the turn of the

458
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 1: twentieth century, Catholic institutions such as Aubasine indoctrinated Catholic youth

459
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: to loathe Jews. Chanelle was no exception. She was often

460
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: given to anti Semitic outbursts. Well known French author and

461
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: editor in chief of the French fashion magazine Marie Claire

462
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: Marcel Heydrick tells of a conversation he had with Chanelle

463
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: over his book and Moses created God. Chanelle asked Hedrick,

464
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: why Moses, you can't believe that ancient stories are still

465
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: of interest, or you hope Jews will like your story,

466
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: they won't buy your book. When the conversation turned to

467
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: how new fashion boutiques were springing up like mushrooms in Paris,

468
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: Chanelle declared, I only fear Jews and Chinese, and the

469
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: Jews more than the Chinese. Hadrick observed, Chanelle's anti Semitism

470
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: was not only verbal, but passionate, demoted, and often embarrassing.

471
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: Like all the children of her age, she had studied

472
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: the Catechism, Hadn't the Jews crucified Jesus? The most Christian

473
00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: thing I could do is hate another clogi. Yeah, this

474
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: is she is up until. I mean, it's probably worth

475
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: noting that, like her early life, this is not unusual

476
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: anti semitism, right, this is a pretty normal amount of

477
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: anti Semitism to grow at the time. French society for

478
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: the time not excusing it. I'm just saying like her

479
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: education is not an abnormal one. A lot of French

480
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: kids in the same period are taught the same things

481
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: she does, grow up to be an abnormally anti Semitic

482
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: person for French society at the time, she is more

483
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: racist than the background level of her society. Eventually, at

484
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: this point, she's just a little kid. So it is

485
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: worth noting that while Coco deeply imbibed the Church's teachings

486
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 1: on Jewish people, she was less convinced about the existence

487
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 1: of God. She kind of probably never was really a believer.

488
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 1: This is probably not surprising given the fact that her

489
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: childhood might be considered to disprove the existence of a

490
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: loving God. But also just like the I very much

491
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: identify with that. When they told me about religion, I

492
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know. So in age eighteen, Coco

493
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: moves from the orphanage to a Catholic school for girls,

494
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: and the big news story at the time would have

495
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: been the Dreyfus affair, which was focused around the eighteen

496
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: ninety four arrest of a Jewish French artillery officer under

497
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: false claims that he'd been a spy. We have talked

498
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: about the Dryfus affair on several occasions. It is a

499
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: watershed moment in the history of European anti Semitism. The

500
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: gist of it is that there was a massive court

501
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: case one of the first big media circuses around a

502
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: trial in Western history. It ignited an entirely new right

503
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: wing media industry in France, which largely formed around spreading

504
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: anti Semitic propaganda. Hal Vaughan writes, during Chanelle's teens at

505
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: the convent and later in the Catholic community at Mulline,

506
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: anti Semitism was in full froth. The widely read Catholic

507
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: Assumptionist daily Lacroix raged against the Jews. A typical spokesman

508
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: for the church's position was the Jesuit priest Father Dulac,

509
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: the spiritual guide to the anti Semitic publicist Edward Drumont,

510
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: author of Jewish France. Drummont coined the slogan France for

511
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: the French. So not much has changed about right wing politics.

512
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, this sounds very familiar France. There's

513
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: a lot of similarities in France. Now about this shit again,

514
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: nothing nothing changes spoiler alert because people are incapable of

515
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: learning lessons, which is good. It's good that we can't

516
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: learn lessons, but we do get better at building bombs.

517
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: I like that. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, it's good stuff.

518
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: I was actually reading this is completely off topic. A

519
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: very cool story about this This Italian physicist who worked

520
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: with Enrico Fermi, brilliant physicist, considered by like Fermi to

521
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: be like a Galileo level genius. He was probably the

522
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: first guy to really figure out like neutrons and neutrinos

523
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: and like have a real complicated understanding of the kind

524
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: of physics that go into the making of a nuclear bomb.

525
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: And he dis appeared off the face of the Earth

526
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty eight, and one of the most likely

527
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: explanations is that, being as smart as he was, he

528
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: realized that nukes were the end result of his research

529
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: and went off to a convent or to end his way.

530
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: Let just to be like, I can't like, I fuck off,

531
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: I'm not doing science anymore. It's a fun story anyway,

532
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: not related to Coco Chanelle. A little related to Coco Chanelle.

533
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: So Chanelle somewhat thoughtlessly adopted the right wing attitude in

534
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: her society towards Jewish people and to what was best

535
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: for French society in general. She's always very conservative. Some

536
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: of this has to do with the company that she

537
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: keeps as a young adult, who are mostly cavalry officers

538
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: and this is don't hang out with cavalry officers. First off.

539
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: At twenty, she gets a job working as a seamstress.

540
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: And so basically the place that she's the school that

541
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: she's going to, is geared towards preparing poor children to

542
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: be productive members of the economy. So the nuns each

543
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: cocoa had a sow so that she can make money.

544
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: And it's kind of worth spending some time on what

545
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: that instruction entailed. So I'm gonna quote from Justine Piccardi again.

546
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: She spoke of being taught to sew by the aunts,

547
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: himming and sing and seeming her trousseau, and of how

548
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: she wore a white shift in which to bathe herself

549
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: because it was a sin to look at one's body.

550
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: She said that she sewed cross stitches on her nightgowns

551
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: to make them look Russian. Sometimes she used to rub

552
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: her nose to make it bleed at night. The blood

553
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: dripped on her white night dress, and when she cried

554
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: out for someone to come to her bedside, Anne would emerge.

555
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: Slashes of red appeared elsewhere in her narratives. Two cherries

556
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: that she stole to eat before her first communion, before

557
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: she panicked and sought absolution from the priest for her wickedness,

558
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: the blood stains on her night dress when she reached puberty,

559
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: not understanding what had happened to her, but believing she

560
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: had hurt herself and her reddened skin when the aunts

561
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: beat her, I remember that they used to take my

562
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: knickers down to spank me. First there was the humiliation.

563
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: Then it was very unpleasant. Your bottom was as red

564
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: as blood. So that's how she learns how to sew again.

565
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 1: Kind of a nightmare in this period. You know, debatably

566
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: better now. So that's a pretty rough life experience. It

567
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: is worth noting that her time in the convent provides

568
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: Cocoa with enough of a basis in reading. They do,

569
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: I think, a particularly good job of teaching her to read,

570
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: because she is a lifelong reader. She loves fiction. She

571
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: is a huge fan of Like one of her biographers, Justine,

572
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: will note that, like, do you know that short story

573
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: the Yellow Wallpaper? Oh yeah, it's a it's a very

574
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: famous like short story that she kind of transposes into

575
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: some stories about her life. She loves like all of

576
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: these different kind of like romance novels and stuff that

577
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: are popular at the time, she's particularly in love with

578
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: like these, these kind of melodramatic like what you call

579
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: like kind of what you'd find into like an airport

580
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: romance novel today, right, Like that's the kind of literature

581
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: that she really enjoys, and she likes it because she

582
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: she wants to escape for really obvious reasons, like it's

583
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: this u She later tells a biographer quote, I thought

584
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: that it was all awful because in my novels there

585
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: was nothing but silk pillows and white lacquered furniture. I'd

586
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: have liked to do everything in white lacquer. Sleeping in

587
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: an alcove made me miserable. It humiliated me. I broke

588
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: off bits of wood whenever I could, thinking what old

589
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: trash this is. I did it out of sheer wickedness

590
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: for the sake of destruction. When one considers all the

591
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: things that go on in a child's head. I wanted

592
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: to kill myself. Oh so she's like, you know, an

593
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: intelligent kid. She finds fiction, she develops this love of reading.

594
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: She's obsessed with these lights. She's horny, for sure. She's

595
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: obsessed with like these Charles Charlotte Perk Perkins Gilman stories

596
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: about like sickness and kind of the oppression of women,

597
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: and also these stories of like swashbuckling romantic adventure, but

598
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: they just kind of make her angrier and angrier. So

599
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: as soon as she came and she gets this job

600
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: as a seamstress, but she wants more independent, so she

601
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: gets a second job singing at a cafe. This is

602
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: where she meets all those cavalry guys because this is

603
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: like kind of a bar. She's like nineteen twenty at

604
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: this time, so she gets this side job singing at

605
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: this cafe where cavalrymen are known to go drink and

606
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: let off steam. So yeah, this is kind of like

607
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: in cafes in this time, like groups singing sessions kind

608
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: of the early versions of karaoke is a common form

609
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: of recreation. And this is where she picks up the

610
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: nickname Coco. And there's two versions of the story of how.

611
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 1: One of them is that it's a nickname these soldiers

612
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: give her because Coco is a French name for kept

613
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: women coquette. So basically one is that when she is

614
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: a teenager ish, these adult soldiers are like bitch, looks

615
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: like a like a you know, a kept on and

616
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 1: she was like, thank you, that is a compliment. This

617
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: is the nicest thing anyw want to said to me.

618
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, the other is that Coco the singer only

619
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: new two songs. One is Coco Rico, which is a

620
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: song about a rooster because Coco Rico is the French

621
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: version of cockadoodle doo. And the other song is quiqua

622
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 1: vu Coco, which is a song about a girl who

623
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: lost her dog. Now, the audience here are all drunk,

624
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 1: horny soldiers who are more interested in her appearance than

625
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: her voice. So when she would come on stage, they

626
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: tended to greet her with a mix of barnyard noises

627
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: and chance of Coco, which is the name of the

628
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: dog from the song. So probably through some mix of

629
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: all of this is how she accrues her nickname Coco.

630
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: But she's kind of proud of it, Like you know,

631
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: they barked it at me. It was so romantic you

632
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: would not believe. Look, I mean there's problematic aspects to this,

633
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: but her time singing in the bar is the first

634
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: period of her life that kind of sounds like it

635
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: might have been fun. I say that is this like

636
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: how she works her way into the eventual spy stuff

637
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: these No, no, no, much much too early. Yeah. Again,

638
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: this is like barely the nineteen hundreds, right, So she's

639
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: just a little kid at this point. Um, I mean

640
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,959
Speaker 1: she's a young woman, but like, you know, she's little

641
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: world kids. Yeah. So, at age twenty three, after she

642
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 1: spent a couple of years as a seamstress and singing,

643
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: she runs into a wealthy for former French cavalry officer

644
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: named at the end Balsan. Now she she claims they

645
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: meet when she's on vacation to the city of Vish.

646
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: That might be true, she might have just met him

647
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: at the cafe. Either way, Balsan asks her out to

648
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: a date the next day, and he like kind of

649
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: falls for her, so he takes her to his compound

650
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: because he's a very wealthy man from a very wealthy family. Um,

651
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: and she basically as soon as she's like, oh, this

652
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 1: rich guy is kind of offering to let me live

653
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 1: on his rich guy compound as his mistress. Yeah done, absolutely,

654
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: I'm on board totally. Yeah, like, of course, why wouldn't

655
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: you do this. I'm really hate her later, Yeah, it's

656
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 1: it's a it's a bummer that this ends with Nazi

657
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: because so far, this is an incredible like fucking you

658
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: could get twenty episodes of a Netflix series out of

659
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: this that would have like a third of the country

660
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: on that the edge of their seats. Oh that's a

661
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: great idea, Robert Ide Yeah, yeah, yeah, take it. Take it.

662
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: So Coco is very lowborn and very poor, so she

663
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: can't marry Balson, right because he's a French noble kind

664
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: of would be embarrassing for him. Yeah yeah, and it's

665
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: but but also Balsan very much loves her right like

666
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: he is. And that is the thing, Like none of

667
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: these all she's going to be kind of a kept

668
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 1: woman for a bunch of men. They are all absolutely

669
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: mate like maniac for her. Um, she is very very

670
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: good at I mean, she's an endearing person right like

671
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: she they This is not just like a oh, they're

672
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 1: like lecherous old men who want her around because she's cute,

673
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 1: Like they fall for her. People will make like these

674
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: very intense sacrifices for her. She has these very intense

675
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 1: romantic relationships with these men. And this is not abnormal

676
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: in Frenchhise society. Kind of the norm for French aristocrats

677
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: in this period is like you marry some high born

678
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: lady who is fancy enough that like, your family's happy,

679
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: and then you never see each other, and you have

680
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of mistresses and chateaus around the riviera and

681
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: other nice places who are like the actual people you

682
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: spend your time with, and everyone is aware of this,

683
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: and that's a pretty normal aspect of life in this

684
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: strata of society. Coco transitions very easily to this life,

685
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: and she likes she really She meets a couple of

686
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: other Cortisons who are like also mistresses of rich guys,

687
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: and she finds them very admirable. She learns a lot

688
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: from them. They're kind of like her mentors. She also

689
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 1: meets a bunch of French noblewomen who she hates. She

690
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 1: doesn't like the way they dress, she thinks their makeup

691
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: is shitty, she thinks they smell bad. She likes hates

692
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 1: these fucking rich lad She's like, fuck, these rich ladies,

693
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: like the Cortisons, are the ones who I want to

694
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 1: be like, right, Like, obviously that's why the men want

695
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: to spend time with them, for sure. No, some of

696
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: those mistresses are like super impressive to read about. Yeah yeah,

697
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, these are this is I mean, more

698
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: a broader and more fascinating history than just cocoa. So

699
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: for a few years she enjoys the high life with Balsan,

700
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 1: becoming acquainted to high society. She rides horses a bunch,

701
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: she flirts incessantly with Balsan's friends. He cheats on her

702
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: regularly too, but you know, that's their French. But of course,

703
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: eventually the realities of their divergent social situations and Balsan's

704
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: love life outside of her cause issues and they break up.

705
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: They don't wind up being like hating it, like they

706
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: remain friendly. This is kind of another pattern. She tends

707
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: to like stay pretty close with her exes, which is

708
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: interesting to me. Yeah, and anyway, in nineteen o eight,

709
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: at age twenty five, she falls madly in love with

710
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: another aristocrat. And this guy is British and his name

711
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: is Arthur Cappell, but everyone calls him boy Capell, which

712
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,919
Speaker 1: we don't call people boy anymore. It's like a name condescending.

713
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's like he's got like

714
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: a boyish face, like he's yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't

715
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 1: think it's like condescending. He doesn't seem to hate it

716
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: or anything. Boy is a very wealthy British aristocrat. He

717
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 1: falls head over heels for cocoa like everyone else does,

718
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: and he puts her up in a fancy Paris apartment

719
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: so she gets her own place now that he pays for.

720
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: That's very nice. The two are very much in love

721
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 1: for a time. But as an English aristocrat, he also

722
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: cannot marry a poor frenchwoman, but he pays. He cares

723
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: about her, and he cares about her enough that like,

724
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: not only does he put her up in an apartment,

725
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: but he gives her a chunk of money to invest

726
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 1: in starting a business so that she can become financially independent,

727
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: which is a sign of actual care as opposed to

728
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: just like you know he doesn't he has. He does

729
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: not seem to want to keep her dependent on him, right,

730
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: which I also find interesting. Is she sewing this whole time?

731
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: Or was that if she sucks ass at sewing she

732
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: always highs she learns how to do it, but she

733
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: she usually hires other people to do that. She's not

734
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: she's never going to be a very good I bring

735
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: that up, but like she's not very good at it.

736
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: That seems to be the consensus. So By this point,

737
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: Coco has come to the conclusion for herself that if

738
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,760
Speaker 1: she wants to exist in the rarefied air of Menli,

739
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: Balsan and Capelle, one option is to just be a

740
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: kept woman. But that only lasts so long, and if

741
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: she wants to really succeed in high society, she's going

742
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: to need to make a fortune of her own. And

743
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: it's interesting. One of the things I find fascinating about

744
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: her is she certainly has the potential, given her beauty,

745
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 1: given her obvious intelligence, given her social skills, to acquire

746
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: a fortune by like making some old rich guy fall

747
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: in love with her and taking his money right like

748
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: that is an option for a Coco. She could have

749
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: handled that if she wanted. She does not seem to

750
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 1: be interested in that. Um she could have probably convinced

751
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 1: a lover to set her up for life, but she

752
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: doesn't seem interested in that either. She wants to make

753
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: a fortune for herself, and so she starts a business

754
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: business that's going to make her name known to people

755
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: and allow her to feel potent standing next to these

756
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: rich people that she's going to spend her life around. Robert,

757
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 1: I'm so mad at this edge. I had to be

758
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: on her side. She's pretty red at this stage, except

759
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: for the rampant anti semitys. Oh yeah, yeah, that is

760
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: not But you know what isn't rampantly anti Semitic ads.

761
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: That's right, these great sponsors not one of them. Ah,

762
00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 1: we're back, so worry about Hey, hey, Sophie, you know

763
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: the Hugo boss. You know the Hugo boss motto. It's

764
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: been a long time since the Holocaust. Sorry, boss, you

765
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,919
Speaker 1: don't have to say you're sorry to the people who

766
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: made uniforms for the SSSA. You're not sorry. It's okay.

767
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: Look if you are. It's the same thing with like

768
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: fucking IBM, providing like the technology that the Germans used

769
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: to do a lot of the like keep track of

770
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 1: a lot of the people that they put in the camps,

771
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: Like if you worked with the Yeah, oh yeah, that

772
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: was a big early ib IBM played a crucial role

773
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: in the Holocaust. And you can keep giving companies shit

774
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: for that. It doesn't matter that nobody there today did that.

775
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: You can keep giving them shit. It's fine. Um, Look,

776
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: they rolled over that money. That money is a part

777
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: of their present success. You can continue to give them

778
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: shit for working with the Nazis is my opinion. So anyway, way,

779
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 1: Hugo boss, if you want to sponsor the show, I

780
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 1: will delete all of this. I have no principles. So

781
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: during her time in the upper crust, Coco developed both

782
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: a distaste for the Garnet's war developed a distaste for

783
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 1: the garments worn by rich society women. Right. She thinks

784
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: they're ugly, They're very complicated. You've seen movies and TV

785
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: shows set in this period. You've seen paintings like these

786
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 1: massive dresses with like the whalebone course, it's in these

787
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: these huge, wide like like they're there. They require like

788
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: a lot of the bigger dresses and shit require multiple

789
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: people to help you put them on. Right, It's like

790
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: a suit of night's armorum. Coco does not like these big,

791
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: complicated all these layers, all of this. She likes bathrobes,

792
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: She likes wearing men's clothing, large shapeless shirts. She also

793
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: likes suits, and she thinks it's frustrating that women don't

794
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: get to wear stuff like that because that kind of

795
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: clothing is liberating and you can move in it, and

796
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: you can be active in a participant in the world

797
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: in it, and you can take care of dressing and

798
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: stuff on your own, right, you don't need a team

799
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: of people. And so Cappel, like Chanelle, convinces Cappel to

800
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: invest in her business. And the first thing she's going

801
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: to make is just a line of hats, right, I guess,

802
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 1: because that's the easy thing to make. But the hats

803
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: do reasonably well. And around the time she's starting her

804
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: clothing business, Coco's life gets struck by another tragedy. Her

805
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: sister Julia, had gotten pregnant and had a child when

806
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: Coco was around twenty and when Coco's around twenty seven,

807
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: Julia catches her husband cheating on her and commits suicide,

808
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: and so Coco is forced to take responsibility for her

809
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 1: nephew Andre. That's one version of the story. Coco's sister

810
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,919
Speaker 1: definitely dies. Some people will say Andre was probably Coco's son,

811
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: and she just would never admit it. We really have

812
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: no idea. She calls him her nephew, so I'm just

813
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: going to call him her nephew for the rest of

814
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: the story, because you know whatever. But she raises this

815
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: kid kinda so she does. I will say this, she

816
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: does a much better job of raising Andre than her father.

817
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: Test of raising her. Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah, it is.

818
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: It is interesting, and she gets Boycappell against kind of

819
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: the evidence that he really does love her. He arranges

820
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: for her nephew to go to a really really expensive

821
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: English boarding school, like one that was going to kind

822
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: of like cement him as a member of English high society.

823
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: It's going to teach maybe his son. It's not impossible.

824
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: I don't think it is. It's not impossible because they know.

825
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: I don't think it could. It could be because the

826
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 1: timing doesn't work out because again, by the time they meet,

827
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: the kids a couple of years old. Okay, So I

828
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: think it is a situation of like Coco's trying to

829
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 1: figure out how to take care of this kid. Maybe

830
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of I don't want a little

831
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: kid running around and stuff, But in any case, he

832
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 1: spends a significant amount of money to give this kid

833
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: a good chance at life, and the fact that the

834
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 1: kid is at a boarding school leaves Coco free to

835
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,919
Speaker 1: focus her efforts on her new business. When the Great

836
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: War hits in nineteen fourteen, Boycappell joins the army and

837
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: serves while Coco jaunts between her Paris factory, the riviera

838
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: and the hosts, and she is kind of following French

839
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: elite society leaves Paris during the war for the most

840
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: part because Paris is getting shelled a lot of the time.

841
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: So they're like, well, let's go party, Like we're not

842
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: gonna fight in this war, you know, let's go. I mean,

843
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: some of them do, but most of them. Most of

844
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: them go party, especially the ladies, so they're kind of

845
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,720
Speaker 1: hanging out, chilling and stuff. And while all of the people,

846
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: these people are dying on the Western Front, Coco's business

847
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: blows the fuck up. It blows up like one hundred

848
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: and fifty five millimeter howitzer shell in a trench full

849
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: of French eighteen year olds. Not even the disruption of

850
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: the war can hinder her success. In short order, she

851
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: has more than a hundred employees, and in order to

852
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: deal with the shortages of wartime, she starts using her

853
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 1: own fabric. Blends. Jersey is a fabric, you know, like

854
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: jersey fabric. She starts to use. It had never been

855
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: a part of high fashion, but it's one of those

856
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: things that has no real military use. It's not used

857
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: in uniforms. So she's able to get a supply it

858
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: and she kind of makes it high fashion, and this

859
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,919
Speaker 1: kind of informs the kind of clothing that she makes

860
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: in this period, which is loose, baggy and androgynous, right, Like,

861
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: that's a big part of the stuff she's making. A

862
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 1: lot of the feel of her early clothing is like

863
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: I'm wearing my boyfriend's shirt, you know, yeah, very consciously

864
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 1: like what she's doing. So that's the stuff that gets

865
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: her rich, not these hats that she was making before. No,

866
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: the hats are kind of like a test run. It's

867
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: this kind of addrogynous, baggy, but comfortable and stuff that

868
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: you can move in and be active in. Now, the

869
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: most iconic design of her early career is her creation

870
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: of what she calls and she's the first person to

871
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: say this, the little black dress that is a that

872
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: is the coco Chanelle original. Now, obviously today that concept

873
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: is bigger than any fashion brand. God knows how many

874
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: kinds of little black dresses, but Coco Chanelle is the

875
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: one who decides. And a fashion world that is dominated

876
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: by eighteen hundreds fashion that like, fuck all these big

877
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: fucking dresses with these huge hoop skirts and shit, I

878
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: am going like women want to wear a slinky, lightweight

879
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: black dress. And there's a couple of different stories as

880
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: to how this look comes about, but I'm choosing to

881
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 1: quote this version of events from Justine Piccardi's book. She

882
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: was dressing for the evening at the apartment in the

883
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: Avenue Gabrielle. No mention of boy Capelle, who was often

884
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: away not only in the arms of other women, but

885
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: also as an army officer, undertaking clandestine missions for his

886
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,720
Speaker 1: friends at government. I'd never been to the opera before.

887
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: I had a white dress made by my own modistes.

888
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: My hair, which came down below my waist, was done

889
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: up around my head in three braids. All that mass

890
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: set straight upon that thin body. She had so much hair,

891
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: she said that it was crushing me to death. But

892
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 1: fate intervened and gave her freedom. There was a gas

893
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 1: burner in the bathroom. I turned on the hot tap

894
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: to wash my hands. Again, the water wasn't hot, so

895
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: I fiddled with the pilot light and the whole thing exploded.

896
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: My white dress was covered in soot my hair. The

897
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: less said, the better. I only had to wash my

898
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 1: face again. I didn't use makeup in those days. Only

899
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: the coquettes used makeup and were elegant. The women of

900
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: the bourgeoisie weren't groomed, and they wore hats that flopped

901
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: all over the place with bird's nests and butterflies. But

902
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: nothing was going to stop her from going out that night,

903
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 1: not even her burnt hair. I took a pair of

904
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 1: scissors and cut one braid off. The hair sprang out

905
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: all at once around my face. In those days, I

906
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: had hair like sable. Undaunted, she cut off the second

907
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: braid and then told her maid to cut off the third.

908
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: The girl began to cry, but Channelle didn't care, or

909
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: at least she didn't care about the loss of her

910
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: hair or of the suit stained white dress. I slipped

911
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: on a black dress I had crossed over in the front.

912
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: What a marvelous thing, youth and caught in the waist,

913
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: with a sort of minaret on top. With bobbed hair

914
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: and a little black dress. Channelle was neither slave nor girl,

915
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 1: but something of her own making. Everyone at the opera

916
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: was looking at her, she later told an interviewer. They

917
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: were also impressed that the darling of the English became

918
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: the beauty of Paris. Afterwards, however, yeah, so that's the story. Right,

919
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: She's going out this night, this burner explodes and she

920
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: winds up like throwing together this outfit that's something. She's got,

921
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: short hair, she's got the slinky black dress. People don't

922
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: dress this way, right, and it takes the fuck off.

923
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: People cannot stop talking about how good Koko she looks

924
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: in this dress. I love it, and I also think, yeah,

925
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 1: she's essentially a sex worker, and like they have been

926
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: so influential on this kind of you know, it makes sense, Yes,

927
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: it totally tracks and it people like one of Coco's

928
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: nicknames is the woman who killed nineteenth century fashion, Like

929
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 1: if you watch those like Gone with the Wind dash it,

930
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: she kills that, and she kills it on that night

931
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: with that little black dress. Right. It makes such a

932
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 1: fucking impact on French fashion that like it, it's like

933
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 1: a bomb goes off in the fashion industry now. Coco

934
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: is also an activist for women's liberation, and a lot

935
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: of her obsession with loose and comfortable women's fashion is

936
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 1: married to her commitment to liberation. One CNN fashion article

937
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 1: I found noted she wanted women to move in, breathe

938
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: in her clothes just like men did in theirs. Her

939
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: work was in many ways a form of female emancipation. Queen. Yeah,

940
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: it sucks where it's building. This is pretty cool. So

941
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: while Coco's career reaches its heights during World War One

942
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: and immediately afterwards she's just doing amazing, her love life

943
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,760
Speaker 1: is a little less successful because her lover boy Capell,

944
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: dies horribly in an automotive crash right after the war ends.

945
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: That's a bummer, Yeah, makes her very sad. Obviously. One

946
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: of the things that makes her sadder is that Keppell's

947
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: most of his possessions. He's got some wife back in England, right,

948
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 1: She gets a lot of stuff, but he leaves a

949
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: lot of money to Coco. He also leaves a lot

950
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: of money to an Italian woman that Coco does not know,

951
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: making it clear that like, oh so he's he's you know,

952
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: he was playing the field more than she was aware of.

953
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: I would have loved to see that will reading share

954
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: that was fun, she would later tell a biographer. His

955
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: death was a terrible blow to me, and losing Capelle,

956
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 1: I lost everything. What followed was not a life of happiness.

957
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: I have to say this seems to most buy there's

958
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 1: she will have fall in love with other men. Most

959
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: people who know of her life will tend to say, like,

960
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: this was the love of her life, right, this was

961
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: the guy that she she cared about the most. That said,

962
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: while she never recovers, maybe emotionally from this, financially she

963
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: just does better and better and better. The war years

964
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: give away to the Roaring twenties, and that's this is

965
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: when Chanel reinvents herself as Coco. Pivoting off of her

966
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: little black dress, she launches a line of loose fitting

967
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 1: jersey outfits made to emulate, in her words, the poor look.

968
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: So the look of like poor girls, right, but in

969
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: expensive high fashion. So she's taking you know, she grows

970
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: up dirt poor, she's taking like, well, these women who

971
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: have to work for a living, this is how they dress,

972
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: and she's making fancy, riche versions of it, right, Like

973
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,320
Speaker 1: That's that's a big part of the early success of Chanelle.

974
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: Andrew vibes flapper vibes very perfectly. We are building to

975
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: the Flappers because that is partly a creation of Coco.

976
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 1: Chanelle um so androgeny is central to her work. She

977
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: is very much into the idea of women wearing clothing

978
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: that covers up their hips, that covers their breasts. Um.

979
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: She's also very much open to Like one of her

980
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 1: most famous Chanelle models will pose in Chanelle clothing dressed

981
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,959
Speaker 1: as a man in wearing mustaches. Um, this is part

982
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: part of why they're doing this is that like Coco,

983
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, is like really into this kind of

984
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: androgynous style. And part of it is that it gets

985
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 1: people talking, right like these ads. This is like this

986
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: is you know, risque, This is kind of all the

987
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,720
Speaker 1: edge of acceptability. Um. And this kind of risque tinge

988
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: mixed with flawless fashion pedigree helps Coco influence an entire

989
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: movement in women's clothing. Quote in this is from that

990
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: CNN article. Her designer clothes inspired flappers to wear shorts,

991
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: sheer short sleeved and sometimes sleeveless dresses, and roll down

992
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: their stockings to just blow their knees. French and American

993
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 1: fashion magazines such as Mademoiselle, Femina, and Minerva celebrated her creations.

994
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: Chanelle launches the ravishing dark green sports suit, Lady Fellow's

995
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 1: sports a Chanelle raw silk dress at the Ritz. Chanelle

996
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 1: launches the black tulet dress. Chanelle's creation for evening, a

997
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: white satin sheath covered over with an embroidered and beaded cloak. Still,

998
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 1: critics could be ferocious women were no longer to exist.

999
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: All that's left or the boys created by Chanelle. So

1000
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: she gets kind of balled out by guys for being like,

1001
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: you're making like women don't look like women anymore because

1002
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 1: they're they're they're dressing, you know, in this new fashion

1003
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: style you've brought on. So by the twenties, Coco Chanelle

1004
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 1: is richer than God. She is as rich as all

1005
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 1: of the most of these guys she's hanging around right,

1006
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,879
Speaker 1: richer than a lot of them. And yeah, through sheer

1007
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: force of will and talent, she has made a place

1008
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: for herself in the highest halls of power and European pride,

1009
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: she later told an interviewer, an orphan denied a home

1010
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: without love, without either father or mother, my solitude gave

1011
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: me a superiority complex. The meanness of life gave me strength, pride,

1012
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: the drive to win, and a passion to greatness. And

1013
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: whenever life brought me lavish elegance in the friendship of

1014
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: a Stravinsky or a Picasso, I never felt stupid or inferior.

1015
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 1: Why because I knew it was with such people that

1016
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:37,359
Speaker 1: one succeeds good climber. That's our right, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1017
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: and she is. She liked she hangs out with Picasso,

1018
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,439
Speaker 1: she hangs out with Stravensky, She's like close with all

1019
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 1: of these people. That's like the social set that she

1020
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: moves in. And yeah, Coco blends in effortlessly with these luminaries,

1021
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: not just because she's successful and rich, but because she's witty.

1022
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,839
Speaker 1: She becomes very well known for her quotes as well

1023
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 1: as her clothes lines like a woman who doesn't wear

1024
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 1: perfume has no fee future. And if you're sad, add more.

1025
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: I like this one. If you're sad, add more lipstick

1026
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 1: and attack. Okay, so not so feminist, Yeah, I mean

1027
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: this is this is the twenties, Like what do you

1028
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: want right about perfume has no future. She also made

1029
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: some statements that are still baffling, like if blonde wear

1030
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: blue perfume, No one seems to know what that means.

1031
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 1: Sometimes she just said things because they sounded good. She

1032
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 1: was an innovator in the speed with which she released

1033
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: radically different lines of clothing. Coco worked at such a

1034
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 1: dizzying pace that her competitors could not keep up. Never

1035
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: before had fashioned moved so quickly or changed so often,

1036
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: and Coco saw this as the key to the success

1037
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: of her empire. Quote address is neither a tragedy nor

1038
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: a painting. It is a charming and ephemeral creation, not

1039
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,919
Speaker 1: an everlasting work of art. Fashion should die and die

1040
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 1: quickly in order that commerce may survive. The more transient

1041
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 1: Fashioned is, the more perfect it is. You can't protect

1042
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: what is already dead. And this is where I don't

1043
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: know if you can lay this morally on her, but

1044
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: this is where we can lay it. Like the biggest

1045
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: negative impact of Coco's life, which is that she kind

1046
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: of helps lay the foundations for fast fashion, not just

1047
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: the industry, where like every season there's a new outfit

1048
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: which had not been a thing before in the same way,

1049
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: but like this idea that fashion should be discardable, that

1050
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: you should be moving through outfits, that you should be

1051
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: getting outfits right now. Chanel, she is not making fast

1052
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: fashion right. Chanelle is a luxury brand. It's a luxury

1053
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,919
Speaker 1: brand in her day, but the idea that clothing should

1054
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 1: be a femural Coco is the one who pushes that

1055
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 1: and most successfully does so, and the human costs of

1056
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 1: the fashion industry today due to this are enormous. We

1057
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: can't entirely because she's not making these choices. She's not

1058
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: having her ship made in Bangladesh right where these factories

1059
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 1: burned down and killed two thousand people. But that is

1060
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: a result of her choices, even if it's one that

1061
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: maybe she wouldn't have foreseen, although knowing Coco, I don't

1062
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: know she would have been against it. So it odds

1063
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: with her Like timeless style, it is it is, but

1064
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: it's she did not see her style as timeless. We

1065
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: see it as timeless because of how iconic it became.

1066
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 1: She was always iterating, always moving, always changing Coco's clothing. Obviously,

1067
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 1: we've talked about how liberatory it was to women in

1068
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,439
Speaker 1: the West, but the industry she innovated now bases its

1069
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: profits on the continued suffering of thousands of women, primarily

1070
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia. Some eighty percent of the garment workforce

1071
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: is industry workforce is female. Most of it resides in

1072
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 1: countries like Bangladesh with very few worker protections. In an

1073
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: interview with Deutsche well industry expert Josella Burkhardt notes the

1074
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,439
Speaker 1: industry wants us to hire women because they are seen

1075
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 1: as docile and they might not organize very easily when

1076
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: they come home. For example, they might not be able

1077
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: to go to trade union meetings because they have so

1078
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: much to do. It's a very patriarchal society in India

1079
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: and Bangladesh, so women are not used to be treated

1080
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 1: as they should be as human beings. This also makes

1081
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 1: it easier in the factory boss's shout at them and

1082
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: treat them differently than men, just keep getting them pregnant

1083
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 1: and make them desperate. It's and again this is this

1084
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: is not morally if you're talking about what is she

1085
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: morally responsible for, It's much more the anti semitism than

1086
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: like modern fast fashion. But it is worth noting that

1087
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 1: modern the modern fashion industry, as horrific as a lot

1088
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: of it is, does is direct. She is probably the

1089
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: number the single most influential designer certainly and why fashion

1090
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: works the way that it does today, at least up

1091
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 1: there right, Like it's hard to beat Coco fucking Chanel

1092
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: for that. An amazing legacy we're working on here, quite

1093
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 1: a legacy coordinate that's gonna be all for part one

1094
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: of our emotionally confusing series on Coco Chanelle. This is

1095
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: the good part, I'm assuming. Yeah, it is gonna get

1096
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 1: rapidly more anti Semitic m so and a lot more

1097
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: Nazis because the twenties are happening, but also the British

1098
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 1: Royal family, although those guys are Nazis too. So Courtney,

1099
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 1: you got anything tood plug? Oh my god, you guys. Yes,

1100
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: I am addicted to making podcasts. I have three. If

1101
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 1: you are a podcaster, check out podcast Bestie. If you

1102
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: are a writer, check out The Bleeders. And if you're

1103
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 1: horny and like to fuck, check out Private Parts Unknown.

1104
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, that's what I'm up to, all right?

1105
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 1: And where should should vollow you? On Twitter and Instagram?

1106
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: Court Oh yeah, I am on the social media's at

1107
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 1: Courtney kosak koc a k oh and you can find

1108
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: this is a hot tip. This is not really on

1109
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 1: the internet. Oh wow, I'm about to end. I'm thinking

1110
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 1: of retiring from only fans, you guys, so this is

1111
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:56,440
Speaker 1: your last chance. If you want to check out Coco

1112
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: peep show, check out Coco peep Show, and when that ends,

1113
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 1: you can find my only fans. Yeah, finally gonna leave this, uh,

1114
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: this grueling life of podcasting behind. You were just celebrating

1115
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 1: our five year. Now you're abandoning me. M m. That's right,

1116
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: that's right, getting the killing on only fans, as long

1117
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 1: as I get ten percent. Good times, good times, everybody,

1118
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 1: all right. Part two's coming up. You know later this week.

1119
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 1: You know how it works. You watch this show, it'll

1120
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: be back. Behind the Bastards is a production of cool

1121
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our

1122
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on

1123
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.