WEBVTT - Richard Russell on Building the Greatest Indie Label Ever 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:14.600 Pushkin. The London based XL Recordings is one of the 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.880 premier indie labels in the last few years. Along with 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.960 their offshoot Young Turks. They've released music by Adell, Radiohead 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:26.599 and Tom York, Kamassi Washington, Ktronata, F, Gay Twigs, and 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:32.360 this new release, Richard Russell's Everything Is Recorded. Richard Russell 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:35.159 is the head of XCEL the boss Man, but he 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.839 loves producing tracks. He's been doing it since the eighties, 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:40.720 but there's a period of time when he gave it 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.000 up to focus on developing the label, and it was 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.640 a good move because once XL got off the ground 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.760 in eighty nine, they quickly established themselves with big releases 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.640 from The Prodigy and later releasing some of the earliest 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:55.080 records from The White Stripes, Vampire Weekend and Tyler the Creator. 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:58.560 Richard and Rick Rubin first met thirty years ago when 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:00.720 Richard was trying to get a distribut uan deal for 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.000 XCEL in the US. A deal didn't happen, but they've 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.720 remained good friends. So when Richard was in LA recently, 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.720 he and Rick sat to record an episode of Broken Record. 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:12.880 They talk about Richard's return to making music when he 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:15.679 produced the last album by the late great Gil Scott, Heron, 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.080 Rick and Russell. Trace XL's evolution from its beginning as 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.959 a dance label to its release in Dizzy Rascal's first album, 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.160 A Widershed Moment in British Rap, to their success with 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:32.520 indie bands and adele. This is Broken Record Season three 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:39.640 liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.920 Rick Rubin's conversation with his friend Richard Russell from Shangra la. 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:45.120 Oh when do we meet? Do you remember what year 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:47.840 we met? I think I was out here and meeting 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.880 year in ninety one? Wow? And what year to do 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.720 start to label? Eighty nine? Yes. So there was a 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.720 record store in London called Groove Records in Soho in 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:00.840 Greek Street. Soho in London us to be full of 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:05.280 record stores. That was a fantastic grassroots scene, the kind 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:10.280 of record store scene. So the Yeah, there was the 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:12.120 record stores. There was Groove Records. There was a guy 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:14.200 called Tim Palmer. There was a producer. There were two 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.320 Tim Palmers. This is not the producer Timparma. This is 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:19.200 the record store owner, Tim Palmer. In London. Groove was 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.280 the best shop. It was the smallest shop. It was tiny. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:24.880 They had all the hip hop records used to come 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:26.360 in from New York, used to sell them in their 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:31.200 dance records from Chicago and Detroit. It and it was 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:37.400 to me that was a portal, magic, mystical portal. How 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.560 often did you go? I used to get the tube 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.160 up there. I actually remember once when I was meant 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.520 a bit of synagogue on Yom kipor getting the tube 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.519 up to Groove Records and feeling a fair bit of guilt. 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.560 That's what That's what I was meant to be doing. 0:02:56.080 --> 0:03:01.520 So Tim had Groove Records. He was selling huge amounts 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:06.160 of certain imports, and he was introduced to the idea 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:11.639 of licensing in that if you're selling thousands of copies 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.400 of one import twelve inch from New York, you could 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.560 potentially do a deal whereby you have the rights to 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.280 press it yourself. And that just makes more sense than importing, 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:27.520 of course, And there was a burgeoning kind of cottage 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:34.360 industry for labels in the UK, licensing records from independence, 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:41.400 mostly in New York. And he was introduced by his 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:49.520 brother to Martin Mills, and Martin had Beggars Banquet, which 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:55.360 was a label, the label of going newman in the UK. Who. 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:57.640 I guess you would have been making records for not 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.200 long after this, right, you'd have been making a cult record. Yes, 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.680 that was the first album I ever produced, was the 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:10.680 cult Electric for Beggar's Banquet, first non hip hop album. 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.960 It may have been the first first period because i'd 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.240 only done I think i'd only done singles up to then. 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.040 I can't remember if the cults Electric or if he 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:24.000 Little Cool Jay's Radio came out first. I cannot mind you. 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.119 You you are not the best historian of your own history. 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.120 I've noticed this with you. No, I don't. I don't 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.480 remember much. I think it's very healthy. Yeah, well I 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.560 don't look back at all. I know I've noticed that. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.360 I think it's healthy. I listened. There was a very 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.279 funny moment. I don't know if you noticed how funny 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.320 it was in when you did one of these with 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.479 T bo Burnett where I've not listened back. So you 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:44.520 talked about the but he was sitting right where you're 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.440 sitting right. You talked about that. Yeah, sort of. This 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.400 is like a self referential moment and referencing back. Yes, 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:53.440 I'm always referencing back to things. There was a moment 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.719 in the show where you talked about the wonderful Robert 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.920 Plant and Alison Krauts record Yes, I love that record 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.520 spectacular And you said to him, have you worked on 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.520 any other records where you've got two unlikely people? Yes, 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.719 and he said, have you ever done that? And you 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:12.640 can remember if you ever had done that? And then 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.719 somewhat later in the show he mentioned the run DMC 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:17.560 and Eira Smith record yea, and of course you had 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:22.680 done that, and that's one of the most famous examples 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:24.919 of that being done ever. Yeah, and you did that, 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:26.479 but you can record it in that minute. No, and 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:28.760 I wouldn't. I don't think of it in that context, 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:32.719 but yes, it does fit. Yeah, absolutely. That must help you, 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.200 right with you with what you do, to not be 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.400 all down in what you did before. I guess I 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:41.240 don't know. I don't think about it at all. It's 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.400 not a it doesn't come into the doesn't come into 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:48.480 the thinking at all. But it must be. There must 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:53.279 be some philosophical reason for not looking back. We'll usually 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:55.960 just take so long to make things. And you know, 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.880 if I listen as a fan, I mean listen to 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.839 something a thousand times, but probably not a thousand and one. 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.440 You know, there's a certain point where you've played it 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:08.520 out and you don't listen to it again for a 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.720 long time. Anything I've worked on, I've listened to it 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.160 enough for my whole life before anyone else has ever 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.120 heard it. And I'm good with it. And there's so 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:19.920 much music to hear, and I love music. Why would 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.200 I want to spend more time listening to things that 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:23.760 I made when I can listen to things that other 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.560 people made and maybe that I've never heard. Well, I 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:29.520 could suggest a reason why you should do that? Tell 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:34.880 me how sort of evolutionary paths as people? So much 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:39.599 of it is about self awareness as people. Right, Yes, 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.160 So any therapy we do whatever, we're kind of exploring 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.320 stuff that happened. So I wonder if there's an argument 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:52.200 that if by examining previous work we do and seeing 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:54.359 what we did and seeing what happened, I think it 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:56.280 is potentially it can. I suppose it depends how the 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.600 individual works, but I think that can be a way 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:03.159 of learning things about ourselves now and for what we do, 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:05.560 like why we made the decisions we made when we 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:09.520 made them. Yeah, I mean I went to something called 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:15.120 a pitch black playback where they take an album and 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.000 they blindfold you and you sit in a black room 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.240 and listen. That sounds great. And they were doing an 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.080 event for the album I'm New Here I produced by 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.200 Gil Scott heron Beautiful and invited me to go. Initially, 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:27.400 I was like, well, I'm not going to go. I'm 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:28.880 you know, I'm not gonna do that. And then I thought, 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.000 it is ten years ago I made that record. That 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:37.080 was actually the first record of this era of record 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.360 making for me. It's kind of that was the start 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.280 of a ten years what's so far up in ten 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.240 years of making records in an active, studio based way, 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.080 and I thought, I think I probably should do that. 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:50.840 I mean, the record was only twenty nine minutes long. 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.760 I thought why not. So I went along and listened 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:57.840 to it and it was extremely revealing. Yes, one thing 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.280 I realized is that I've learned a lot about producing 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.680 records since then, and whilst that might be helping me 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.040 in some ways, I also think it's causing me to 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.160 that there's a risk of losing some of the spontaneity 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.440 it was occurring then, partly because I just didn't know 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.520 what I was doing. Yes, I think it was helping me. No, 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.480 for sure, that's true. That's true for everybody. By the way, 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.920 that that idea that when we start doing things, there's 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:26.720 this naive energy where we may make some terrible mistakes, 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.880 but very interesting things can happen. And then as we 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.120 do it for a long time, we kind of learn 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:36.960 our craft and we replace that naive energy with wisdom 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:39.559 that we didn't have before, and we just make different things. 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:41.920 It's not better or worse. But I don't know that 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:43.920 you can put the genie back in the bottle, do 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.120 you know what I mean. I think it's just I 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:50.240 do a lot of things in my work to not 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:54.960 know what's happening. I tricked myself in different ways to 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.199 experience something as if it's the first time. Yes, I 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:00.560 suppose I've never quite articulate to I do that as 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.120 given an example of how you do that. When we're 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.040 working on a project, I never take anything home with me, 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.480 so I don't have the thought of listening to it. 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.320 I try to work on different things at the same 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.880 time because I'm if I get completely absorbed in a 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:23.520 different project, even for two hours. There's been this palette 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.960 cleansing effect of working on something else and really focusing 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:29.840 on it that when I'm coming back there is a 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.480 little bit of a reset. So if there was something, 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.120 if I was getting any tunnel vision before from working 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:41.199 on it in a straight line for a long time, 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:45.800 I might start losing perspective by working on something different. 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.200 And it could even be by listening to other things. 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.080 It's happened sometimes with a band, like for working on 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:52.880 a song and playing it over and over and over again, 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:59.000 and it starts it starts sounding like they're not as 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.880 interested in it, Like even though we're getting closer to 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:06.240 the correct arrangement, you can see that the life of 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.480 it's going away. I might say, hey, play a different song, 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.400 you know, just play one of your favorite songs, and 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.400 just shifting out of the mood of the song could 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:18.240 be enough that when we come back to it it 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:23.000 has kind of a freshness again. That's extremely interesting, and 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:28.640 I think I've ended up adopting the opposite approach, and 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:33.360 I do question it sometimes in that I've established this 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:36.320 rule for myself of working incredibly strictly on one thing 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:38.040 at a time and only one thing at a time, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:44.920 and I take stuff out of the studio and listen 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.640 to it and all sorts of other places, and I 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:53.080 get so immersed in the project I'm lost in it. 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.280 In some ways, I think I like being lost in 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:57.880 it because it's almost like oblivion or something. I'm so 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.040 sort of in it, almost like I'm in it and 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:05.040 I'm asleep when I'm doing it. But it's um, it's 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.160 probably good. It's downside, And I think one thing is 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.079 that I think there's something about the taking out of 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:12.800 music from the studio and listening to it that does 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:17.520 have a slightly can be stressful when you do that, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.160 and stress is never really helpful. There's something about that 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.520 because it's like you something you're in the middle of 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:28.120 working on. If you listen to that, you you're really listening. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:30.280 I mean, that's not like someone listening to a tune 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.679 on the radio. And so because I take it with me, 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:38.640 I will do that at home. And so suddenly you're working. 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:42.560 You're working, and you're working intensely hard, and you can't 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.120 really take action on what you're working on because you're 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.120 not in the studio, so you can't make the changes 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:53.439 you're hear. Yeah, and it's almost something that might make 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:55.760 sense to do if you were in a tremendous rush 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:57.680 to get something done, but I never am, so I 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:59.880 slightly wonder why I've got into that. Okay, well that's 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:03.000 a very useful, so useful things come out today. I'm 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:04.360 going to have to I'm gonna have to ponder that. 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:08.880 And my theory in general is if you have a 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.960 method that works for you, try something different. So that 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:17.120 means for me, I'm going to try a project where 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.880 I just think about it all the time and see 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.679 what happens. We'll be back with more Richard Russell after 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:29.960 the break. We're back with more from Richard Russell. So, yeah, 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.199 when I when I met you, I think it was 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.400 shortly after the Weed license Prodigy to Electra, and it 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.439 actually might have been the other way around, because yeah, 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.920 because I didn't know if Prodigy was right for us, 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:44.800 because I knew we had the opportunity to do that, 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.360 so it probably wasn't signed yet. I think we talked 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.800 about I don't even know if you had albums because 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.880 I thought it was just twelve and when we first 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.680 could it could have would have been that. But you know, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.440 the Electra, the Prodigy, Electra, they all was short lived 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.199 than maybe it was. Yeah, maybe that's right, it was 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:06.440 that we got you know, signed and dropped really quickly. Yeah, 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:08.559 so that may have been. It was that that experience 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:13.880 of kind of walking into like a corporate American kind 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.319 of shiny record company, everyone being really pleased to see you, 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.240 and then like smash cut to like the record is 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:24.760 not a hit, Yes, and it's like and I do 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:26.560 think it's one of the one of the things I've 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.400 identified as the sort of the shortcomings that if you 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.520 have to deal with corporations, it's like there's these there's 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.040 these modes of dealing with you whereby if you're like 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.640 the objective desire or you're someone who's generating money for them, 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:43.559 like you can, they'll kind of treat you a bit 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.720 like a god. But if you're like not of interest, 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:52.240 they're sort of like nothink. Yes, And really the correct 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.760 way of dealing with someone is neither of those things. Yes, 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.040 it's just to deal with a person as a person. 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:01.160 Both both are unhealthy and neither of them support the 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:12.079 best artistic work. Those experiences, though, with the licensing records 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:18.000 to US Majors, which we did throughout the nineties and 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:24.960 into the two thousands, although I was seeing a fair 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.840 amount of stuff out here where I was like, you know, 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.680 I was thinking, that doesn't doesn't seem that great, what's 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:34.480 going on? I was also seeing this whole kind of 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.240 ambitious way of looking at game music out there. Yes, 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.200 it's kind of unique to America, and I do think 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.120 I took some of that back with me. Yes, And 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.640 I think I sort of developed this idea that that 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.920 was really not It wasn't anything new about it. It 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.600 was a combination of existing things. Where I was like, 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:59.640 independent record labels are often especially the classic ones in 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:07.520 the UK, they're often got really integrity, musical integrity, artistic sensitivity, 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:13.280 genuine respect and support for the artists. That that was 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:19.200 their big advantage. Majors had drive, ambition, they were competitive, 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.240 they wanted to get the music to the biggest possible audience. 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:26.640 Those were like the respective strengths and then there were 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:32.000 respective weaknesses. And I just had this sort of it 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.640 was almost like an epiphany of like, well, why can't 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.120 we just be both of those things, the sensitivity of 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:43.280 an independent in the integrity of it, and the drive 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:45.680 of a major. And the next thing I thought was 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:48.120 there must be a reason people don't do that, and 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:50.920 there must be some part of the formula there must be. 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.600 And the thing that struck me was hardly put any 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.920 records out because otherwise it's not going to be possible. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.000 It's going to be there's not you know, you're not 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.160 gonna have the power or the funds to do that 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.640 a lot. But you could do that a bit, and 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:06.240 so then it was like, okay, but then it needs 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.520 to be. There needs to be real heart and soul 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:12.240 in what these things are, absolutely and what we do, 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:16.680 and even in the most sort of earthly mainstream thing 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.680 we've ever done, which is Adele Yes, I think she's 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.000 got that yes, because it's in HER's if you've met her, 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.000 she's got it. She's not sweetness and light. That's not 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.320 how she is. She's telling it like it is, you know. 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:30.840 And the joke I made after I first met her 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.800 to Jonathan, who's her manager, as I said, I think 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:37.640 she's a punk Barbara Strident. She is, and she is, 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.240 and it's like, I don't think anyone else has ever 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.680 combined punk and Barbara Streident. So again it's like a 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:46.560 I don't know what her I don't know what her 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.560 takers along I'll ask, I don't know what her takers 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.440 on that that idea that that's what she don't know 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.840 how she feels about punk music, but unquestionably she's got 0:16:55.880 --> 0:17:00.680 that ability to say, mmm, fuck that we're moving on, 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.960 and it's such a big part of her building what 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.760 she's built. So I think that kind of character, I'm 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:09.840 very dawned to that kind of character, you know, the 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.719 sort of it's characters who who are often seen by 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:15.840 people as difficult, but they're not really difficult. They're only 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.960 difficult if you're sort of trying to mess with them 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.480 and stop them doing what they know they should be doing. Yes, 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.320 But actually working with that type of character, it's it's 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.280 really the easiest thing, isn't it if you if you're 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.320 a believer, Yeah, because they know what they're doing and 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:34.720 you support what they do. It's they're only difficult because 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:36.680 people trying to get them to do something that they don't, 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:38.840 that they know is not right for them to do. Yeah, 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.159 And then it's God help you exactly, God help you 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.560 know trying to do that. So I think those, you know, 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.679 those type of characters always and I always get a 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.399 sort of you know, Jack, whyite is that type of character? 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:54.040 Damon albarn Is that type of the first artist. So 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.280 it started as a dance label. Would you call it 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.720 a dance lay What would you describe the early excel 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.959 a rave label, rave le ray label? Yeah, so it 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.479 was elected. Was it all programmed? Yeah? Oh yeah, so 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:07.200 I don't. I don't there was a live instrument or 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.480 one of our records. Program based electronic music. It would 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:14.439 be the precursors of edms. Could we say that, well, 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.359 m M, what was it the precursor of or is it? 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:24.800 I mean ADM to me was a bit like if 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.960 you had hippie parents and they had a child who 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.640 became an investment banker and they were sort of looking 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.280 on a ghast. That's how I felt about ADM. Okay, 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:35.560 but so so then it is then it is what 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.600 I That is what I mean. So it was the 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.800 That's how the blues guys probably felt hearing led Zeppelin, 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.280 Do you know what I'm saying? Possibly there was a 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:53.600 I think there was a there was a materialism. It 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.359 was the sort of Las Vegas materialistic aspect of it 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.760 that seemed felt to me. I don't think that that. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.600 I mean, that's that's about the culture of it. But 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:05.800 the music, I don't think the music was made with 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:09.040 Las Vegas and man, that's probably true. Yeah, that's that's 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.600 probably fair. I mean that the rave scene in the 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:17.600 UK was you know, I've been I've been traveling back 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:21.880 a little bit recently because Keith Flint passed away from 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:27.080 Prodigy very recently. Yes, and so that's led to us 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.320 just talking about that period, which we really talked about 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:31.640 a lot. I mean, you know, it was an amazing, 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:36.240 amazing time and I think when you were in it, 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.840 you were just in it, aren't you? You're just doing it. 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.679 I had the same experience here going to raves that 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.199 I had going to the early hip hop clubs. It 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:55.639 was the same feeling. It was the same energy and excitement. Yeah, 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:59.520 so I mean the early parties at home where there 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:01.520 was a combination. I mean, it was. One thing that 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:06.360 was interesting was it got the outdoor events, the unlicensed 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:13.320 outdoor events. They were really big, the thousands of people. 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:17.120 But it was something that just started existing so very quickly. 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:18.800 It was just this sort of I suppose you know 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.880 now people you talk about something going viral, that was 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.959 that was the viral, pre pre viral viral. Yeah, and 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:27.160 it's obviously always been possible for things to go viral. 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:29.600 I suppose the Internet is just a means of that 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.520 occur amplifier. Yeah, so you know, we beat those of 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.880 it and they were quite a spectacle, those events because 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.560 there were thousands of thousands of people and you know, 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:44.960 dancing to music that was mostly from Chicago and Detroit. 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.800 And then you know, we started making these records where 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:53.040 we were kind of taking that sound. Of course, a 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:55.920 lot of that sound was like a European synthesizer influenced sound. 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.720 So they'd already been such a great dialogue. It's beautiful, 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:01.040 isn't it. So there's you know, they're being influenced by 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:05.280 like European dance records. They're making these more soulful techno records, 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:11.280 and we were all frustrated be boys. We wanted to 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:13.439 be making records like you made. You know, that's what 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.480 we want, and it just did. We all did, and 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:17.720 no one liked them. You know, we all made British 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:19.120 Sure where recor was. Liam was in a group called 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.560 Cut to Kill. You know, I used to work with 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:24.000 this MC called Lord Jat. I mean, we really tried 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:26.240 to do that, but no one was really interested. And 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:31.320 then when we used those breakbeats and sped them up 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:35.159 on the wrong speed, added them to the the techno sounds, 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:39.359 and you know, we were making this this breakbeat rave sound. 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:43.720 It's hard called breakbe rave sound. Suddenly everyone wanted to 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.159 know about it. I made that song The Bouncer in 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:48.520 an hour, and it was a top ten pop wreck. 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:50.320 I mean, it was insane, but it was. They weren't 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.600 on the radio, but the movement was so big, The 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:56.200 grassroots movement was so big. If you had a song 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:59.600 that was big in those parties, big on pirate radio, 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:01.960 so many people will go out and by the twelve 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:04.240 inch you'd find yourself. And so you know, I was 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.919 on top of the pops. How did this happen? You 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:09.320 know my name and my synth? Can I find the 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:11.840 Bouncer right now on the streaming service? It could just 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:19.639 be a question. That is the This was actually a 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:20.960 mix that was on the B side, but it was 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:24.760 still pretty good. I get this do it all day. 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:28.200 That's nice. The thing that strikes me from from hearing that, though, 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.680 is that we were you know, we were making records 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:33.720 to DJ with. That was that was the only aim, 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:35.639 and you couldn't really get it wrong. And the records 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:37.320 we were putting out, and so we were making records 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:39.480 and we were we were putting out other people's records, 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:42.560 but they were they were for our DJ set, and 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:47.000 you couldn't get that wrong. But there was a weakness 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:50.320 in that approach I've worked out in retrospect, which was 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:55.080 I got the first thing aphex to've never made, and 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:58.080