1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The London based XL Recordings is one of the 2 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: premier indie labels in the last few years. Along with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: their offshoot Young Turks. They've released music by Adell, Radiohead 4 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: and Tom York, Kamassi Washington, Ktronata, F, Gay Twigs, and 5 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: this new release, Richard Russell's Everything Is Recorded. Richard Russell 6 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: is the head of XCEL the boss Man, but he 7 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: loves producing tracks. He's been doing it since the eighties, 8 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: but there's a period of time when he gave it 9 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: up to focus on developing the label, and it was 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: a good move because once XL got off the ground 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: in eighty nine, they quickly established themselves with big releases 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: from The Prodigy and later releasing some of the earliest 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: records from The White Stripes, Vampire Weekend and Tyler the Creator. 14 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: Richard and Rick Rubin first met thirty years ago when 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: Richard was trying to get a distribut uan deal for 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: XCEL in the US. A deal didn't happen, but they've 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: remained good friends. So when Richard was in LA recently, 18 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: he and Rick sat to record an episode of Broken Record. 19 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: They talk about Richard's return to making music when he 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: produced the last album by the late great Gil Scott, Heron, 21 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: Rick and Russell. Trace XL's evolution from its beginning as 22 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: a dance label to its release in Dizzy Rascal's first album, 23 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: A Widershed Moment in British Rap, to their success with 24 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: indie bands and adele. This is Broken Record Season three 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's 26 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: Rick Rubin's conversation with his friend Richard Russell from Shangra la. 27 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: Oh when do we meet? Do you remember what year 28 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: we met? I think I was out here and meeting 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: year in ninety one? Wow? And what year to do 30 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: start to label? Eighty nine? Yes. So there was a 31 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: record store in London called Groove Records in Soho in 32 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: Greek Street. Soho in London us to be full of 33 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: record stores. That was a fantastic grassroots scene, the kind 34 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: of record store scene. So the Yeah, there was the 35 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: record stores. There was Groove Records. There was a guy 36 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: called Tim Palmer. There was a producer. There were two 37 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: Tim Palmers. This is not the producer Timparma. This is 38 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: the record store owner, Tim Palmer. In London. Groove was 39 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: the best shop. It was the smallest shop. It was tiny. 40 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: They had all the hip hop records used to come 41 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: in from New York, used to sell them in their 42 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: dance records from Chicago and Detroit. It and it was 43 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: to me that was a portal, magic, mystical portal. How 44 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: often did you go? I used to get the tube 45 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: up there. I actually remember once when I was meant 46 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: a bit of synagogue on Yom kipor getting the tube 47 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: up to Groove Records and feeling a fair bit of guilt. 48 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: That's what That's what I was meant to be doing. 49 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: So Tim had Groove Records. He was selling huge amounts 50 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: of certain imports, and he was introduced to the idea 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: of licensing in that if you're selling thousands of copies 52 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: of one import twelve inch from New York, you could 53 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: potentially do a deal whereby you have the rights to 54 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: press it yourself. And that just makes more sense than importing, 55 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: of course, And there was a burgeoning kind of cottage 56 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: industry for labels in the UK, licensing records from independence, 57 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: mostly in New York. And he was introduced by his 58 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: brother to Martin Mills, and Martin had Beggars Banquet, which 59 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: was a label, the label of going newman in the UK. Who. 60 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: I guess you would have been making records for not 61 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: long after this, right, you'd have been making a cult record. Yes, 62 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: that was the first album I ever produced, was the 63 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: cult Electric for Beggar's Banquet, first non hip hop album. 64 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: It may have been the first first period because i'd 65 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: only done I think i'd only done singles up to then. 66 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: I can't remember if the cults Electric or if he 67 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: Little Cool Jay's Radio came out first. I cannot mind you. 68 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,119 Speaker 1: You you are not the best historian of your own history. 69 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: I've noticed this with you. No, I don't. I don't 70 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: remember much. I think it's very healthy. Yeah, well I 71 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: don't look back at all. I know I've noticed that. 72 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: I think it's healthy. I listened. There was a very 73 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: funny moment. I don't know if you noticed how funny 74 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: it was in when you did one of these with 75 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: T bo Burnett where I've not listened back. So you 76 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: talked about the but he was sitting right where you're 77 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: sitting right. You talked about that. Yeah, sort of. This 78 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: is like a self referential moment and referencing back. Yes, 79 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: I'm always referencing back to things. There was a moment 80 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: in the show where you talked about the wonderful Robert 81 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: Plant and Alison Krauts record Yes, I love that record 82 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: spectacular And you said to him, have you worked on 83 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: any other records where you've got two unlikely people? Yes, 84 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: and he said, have you ever done that? And you 85 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: can remember if you ever had done that? And then 86 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: somewhat later in the show he mentioned the run DMC 87 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: and Eira Smith record yea, and of course you had 88 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: done that, and that's one of the most famous examples 89 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: of that being done ever. Yeah, and you did that, 90 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: but you can record it in that minute. No, and 91 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I don't think of it in that context, 92 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: but yes, it does fit. Yeah, absolutely. That must help you, 93 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: right with you with what you do, to not be 94 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: all down in what you did before. I guess I 95 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't think about it at all. It's 96 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: not a it doesn't come into the doesn't come into 97 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: the thinking at all. But it must be. There must 98 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: be some philosophical reason for not looking back. We'll usually 99 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: just take so long to make things. And you know, 100 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: if I listen as a fan, I mean listen to 101 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: something a thousand times, but probably not a thousand and one. 102 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: You know, there's a certain point where you've played it 103 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: out and you don't listen to it again for a 104 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: long time. Anything I've worked on, I've listened to it 105 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: enough for my whole life before anyone else has ever 106 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: heard it. And I'm good with it. And there's so 107 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: much music to hear, and I love music. Why would 108 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: I want to spend more time listening to things that 109 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: I made when I can listen to things that other 110 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: people made and maybe that I've never heard. Well, I 111 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: could suggest a reason why you should do that? Tell 112 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: me how sort of evolutionary paths as people? So much 113 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: of it is about self awareness as people. Right, Yes, 114 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: So any therapy we do whatever, we're kind of exploring 115 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: stuff that happened. So I wonder if there's an argument 116 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: that if by examining previous work we do and seeing 117 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: what we did and seeing what happened, I think it 118 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: is potentially it can. I suppose it depends how the 119 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: individual works, but I think that can be a way 120 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: of learning things about ourselves now and for what we do, 121 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: like why we made the decisions we made when we 122 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: made them. Yeah, I mean I went to something called 123 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: a pitch black playback where they take an album and 124 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: they blindfold you and you sit in a black room 125 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: and listen. That sounds great. And they were doing an 126 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: event for the album I'm New Here I produced by 127 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: Gil Scott heron Beautiful and invited me to go. Initially, 128 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: I was like, well, I'm not going to go. I'm 129 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not gonna do that. And then I thought, 130 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: it is ten years ago I made that record. That 131 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: was actually the first record of this era of record 132 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: making for me. It's kind of that was the start 133 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: of a ten years what's so far up in ten 134 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: years of making records in an active, studio based way, 135 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: and I thought, I think I probably should do that. 136 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: I mean, the record was only twenty nine minutes long. 137 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: I thought why not. So I went along and listened 138 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: to it and it was extremely revealing. Yes, one thing 139 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: I realized is that I've learned a lot about producing 140 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: records since then, and whilst that might be helping me 141 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: in some ways, I also think it's causing me to 142 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: that there's a risk of losing some of the spontaneity 143 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: it was occurring then, partly because I just didn't know 144 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: what I was doing. Yes, I think it was helping me. No, 145 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: for sure, that's true. That's true for everybody. By the way, 146 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: that that idea that when we start doing things, there's 147 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: this naive energy where we may make some terrible mistakes, 148 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: but very interesting things can happen. And then as we 149 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: do it for a long time, we kind of learn 150 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: our craft and we replace that naive energy with wisdom 151 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: that we didn't have before, and we just make different things. 152 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: It's not better or worse. But I don't know that 153 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: you can put the genie back in the bottle, do 154 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I think it's just I 155 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: do a lot of things in my work to not 156 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: know what's happening. I tricked myself in different ways to 157 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: experience something as if it's the first time. Yes, I 158 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: suppose I've never quite articulate to I do that as 159 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: given an example of how you do that. When we're 160 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: working on a project, I never take anything home with me, 161 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: so I don't have the thought of listening to it. 162 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: I try to work on different things at the same 163 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: time because I'm if I get completely absorbed in a 164 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: different project, even for two hours. There's been this palette 165 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: cleansing effect of working on something else and really focusing 166 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: on it that when I'm coming back there is a 167 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: little bit of a reset. So if there was something, 168 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: if I was getting any tunnel vision before from working 169 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: on it in a straight line for a long time, 170 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: I might start losing perspective by working on something different. 171 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: And it could even be by listening to other things. 172 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: It's happened sometimes with a band, like for working on 173 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: a song and playing it over and over and over again, 174 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: and it starts it starts sounding like they're not as 175 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: interested in it, Like even though we're getting closer to 176 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: the correct arrangement, you can see that the life of 177 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: it's going away. I might say, hey, play a different song, 178 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: you know, just play one of your favorite songs, and 179 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: just shifting out of the mood of the song could 180 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: be enough that when we come back to it it 181 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: has kind of a freshness again. That's extremely interesting, and 182 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: I think I've ended up adopting the opposite approach, and 183 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: I do question it sometimes in that I've established this 184 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: rule for myself of working incredibly strictly on one thing 185 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: at a time and only one thing at a time, 186 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: and I take stuff out of the studio and listen 187 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: to it and all sorts of other places, and I 188 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: get so immersed in the project I'm lost in it. 189 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: In some ways, I think I like being lost in 190 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: it because it's almost like oblivion or something. I'm so 191 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 1: sort of in it, almost like I'm in it and 192 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm asleep when I'm doing it. But it's um, it's 193 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: probably good. It's downside, And I think one thing is 194 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: that I think there's something about the taking out of 195 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: music from the studio and listening to it that does 196 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: have a slightly can be stressful when you do that, 197 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: and stress is never really helpful. There's something about that 198 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: because it's like you something you're in the middle of 199 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: working on. If you listen to that, you you're really listening. 200 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that's not like someone listening to a tune 201 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: on the radio. And so because I take it with me, 202 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: I will do that at home. And so suddenly you're working. 203 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: You're working, and you're working intensely hard, and you can't 204 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: really take action on what you're working on because you're 205 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: not in the studio, so you can't make the changes 206 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: you're hear. Yeah, and it's almost something that might make 207 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: sense to do if you were in a tremendous rush 208 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: to get something done, but I never am, so I 209 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: slightly wonder why I've got into that. Okay, well that's 210 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: a very useful, so useful things come out today. I'm 211 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: going to have to I'm gonna have to ponder that. 212 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: And my theory in general is if you have a 213 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: method that works for you, try something different. So that 214 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: means for me, I'm going to try a project where 215 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: I just think about it all the time and see 216 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: what happens. We'll be back with more Richard Russell after 217 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: the break. We're back with more from Richard Russell. So, yeah, 218 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: when I when I met you, I think it was 219 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: shortly after the Weed license Prodigy to Electra, and it 220 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: actually might have been the other way around, because yeah, 221 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: because I didn't know if Prodigy was right for us, 222 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: because I knew we had the opportunity to do that, 223 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: so it probably wasn't signed yet. I think we talked 224 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: about I don't even know if you had albums because 225 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: I thought it was just twelve and when we first 226 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: could it could have would have been that. But you know, 227 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: the Electra, the Prodigy, Electra, they all was short lived 228 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: than maybe it was. Yeah, maybe that's right, it was 229 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: that we got you know, signed and dropped really quickly. Yeah, 230 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: so that may have been. It was that that experience 231 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: of kind of walking into like a corporate American kind 232 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: of shiny record company, everyone being really pleased to see you, 233 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: and then like smash cut to like the record is 234 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: not a hit, Yes, and it's like and I do 235 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: think it's one of the one of the things I've 236 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: identified as the sort of the shortcomings that if you 237 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: have to deal with corporations, it's like there's these there's 238 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: these modes of dealing with you whereby if you're like 239 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: the objective desire or you're someone who's generating money for them, 240 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: like you can, they'll kind of treat you a bit 241 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: like a god. But if you're like not of interest, 242 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: they're sort of like nothink. Yes, And really the correct 243 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: way of dealing with someone is neither of those things. Yes, 244 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: it's just to deal with a person as a person. 245 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: Both both are unhealthy and neither of them support the 246 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: best artistic work. Those experiences, though, with the licensing records 247 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: to US Majors, which we did throughout the nineties and 248 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: into the two thousands, although I was seeing a fair 249 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: amount of stuff out here where I was like, you know, 250 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: I was thinking, that doesn't doesn't seem that great, what's 251 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: going on? I was also seeing this whole kind of 252 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: ambitious way of looking at game music out there. Yes, 253 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of unique to America, and I do think 254 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: I took some of that back with me. Yes, And 255 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: I think I sort of developed this idea that that 256 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: was really not It wasn't anything new about it. It 257 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: was a combination of existing things. Where I was like, 258 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: independent record labels are often especially the classic ones in 259 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: the UK, they're often got really integrity, musical integrity, artistic sensitivity, 260 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: genuine respect and support for the artists. That that was 261 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: their big advantage. Majors had drive, ambition, they were competitive, 262 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: they wanted to get the music to the biggest possible audience. 263 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: Those were like the respective strengths and then there were 264 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: respective weaknesses. And I just had this sort of it 265 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: was almost like an epiphany of like, well, why can't 266 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: we just be both of those things, the sensitivity of 267 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: an independent in the integrity of it, and the drive 268 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: of a major. And the next thing I thought was 269 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: there must be a reason people don't do that, and 270 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: there must be some part of the formula there must be. 271 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: And the thing that struck me was hardly put any 272 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: records out because otherwise it's not going to be possible. 273 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: It's going to be there's not you know, you're not 274 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: gonna have the power or the funds to do that 275 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: a lot. But you could do that a bit, and 276 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: so then it was like, okay, but then it needs 277 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: to be. There needs to be real heart and soul 278 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: in what these things are, absolutely and what we do, 279 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: and even in the most sort of earthly mainstream thing 280 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: we've ever done, which is Adele Yes, I think she's 281 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: got that yes, because it's in HER's if you've met her, 282 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: she's got it. She's not sweetness and light. That's not 283 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: how she is. She's telling it like it is, you know. 284 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: And the joke I made after I first met her 285 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: to Jonathan, who's her manager, as I said, I think 286 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: she's a punk Barbara Strident. She is, and she is, 287 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't think anyone else has ever 288 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: combined punk and Barbara Streident. So again it's like a 289 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what her I don't know what her 290 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: takers along I'll ask, I don't know what her takers 291 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: on that that idea that that's what she don't know 292 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: how she feels about punk music, but unquestionably she's got 293 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: that ability to say, mmm, fuck that we're moving on, 294 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: and it's such a big part of her building what 295 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: she's built. So I think that kind of character, I'm 296 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: very dawned to that kind of character, you know, the 297 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 1: sort of it's characters who who are often seen by 298 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: people as difficult, but they're not really difficult. They're only 299 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: difficult if you're sort of trying to mess with them 300 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: and stop them doing what they know they should be doing. Yes, 301 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: But actually working with that type of character, it's it's 302 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: really the easiest thing, isn't it if you if you're 303 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: a believer, Yeah, because they know what they're doing and 304 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: you support what they do. It's they're only difficult because 305 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: people trying to get them to do something that they don't, 306 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: that they know is not right for them to do. Yeah, 307 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: And then it's God help you exactly, God help you 308 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: know trying to do that. So I think those, you know, 309 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: those type of characters always and I always get a 310 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: sort of you know, Jack, whyite is that type of character? 311 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: Damon albarn Is that type of the first artist. So 312 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: it started as a dance label. Would you call it 313 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: a dance lay What would you describe the early excel 314 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 1: a rave label, rave le ray label? Yeah, so it 315 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,479 Speaker 1: was elected. Was it all programmed? Yeah? Oh yeah, so 316 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't there was a live instrument or 317 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: one of our records. Program based electronic music. It would 318 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: be the precursors of edms. Could we say that, well, 319 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: m M, what was it the precursor of or is it? 320 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: I mean ADM to me was a bit like if 321 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: you had hippie parents and they had a child who 322 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: became an investment banker and they were sort of looking 323 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: on a ghast. That's how I felt about ADM. Okay, 324 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: but so so then it is then it is what 325 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: I That is what I mean. So it was the 326 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: That's how the blues guys probably felt hearing led Zeppelin, 327 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying? Possibly there was a 328 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: I think there was a there was a materialism. It 329 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: was the sort of Las Vegas materialistic aspect of it 330 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: that seemed felt to me. I don't think that that. 331 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's about the culture of it. But 332 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: the music, I don't think the music was made with 333 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: Las Vegas and man, that's probably true. Yeah, that's that's 334 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: probably fair. I mean that the rave scene in the 335 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: UK was you know, I've been I've been traveling back 336 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: a little bit recently because Keith Flint passed away from 337 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: Prodigy very recently. Yes, and so that's led to us 338 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: just talking about that period, which we really talked about 339 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: a lot. I mean, you know, it was an amazing, 340 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: amazing time and I think when you were in it, 341 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: you were just in it, aren't you? You're just doing it. 342 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: I had the same experience here going to raves that 343 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: I had going to the early hip hop clubs. It 344 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: was the same feeling. It was the same energy and excitement. Yeah, 345 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: so I mean the early parties at home where there 346 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: was a combination. I mean, it was. One thing that 347 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: was interesting was it got the outdoor events, the unlicensed 348 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: outdoor events. They were really big, the thousands of people. 349 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: But it was something that just started existing so very quickly. 350 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: It was just this sort of I suppose you know 351 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: now people you talk about something going viral, that was 352 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,959 Speaker 1: that was the viral, pre pre viral viral. Yeah, and 353 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: it's obviously always been possible for things to go viral. 354 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: I suppose the Internet is just a means of that 355 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: occur amplifier. Yeah, so you know, we beat those of 356 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: it and they were quite a spectacle, those events because 357 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: there were thousands of thousands of people and you know, 358 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: dancing to music that was mostly from Chicago and Detroit. 359 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: And then you know, we started making these records where 360 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: we were kind of taking that sound. Of course, a 361 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: lot of that sound was like a European synthesizer influenced sound. 362 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: So they'd already been such a great dialogue. It's beautiful, 363 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: isn't it. So there's you know, they're being influenced by 364 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: like European dance records. They're making these more soulful techno records, 365 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: and we were all frustrated be boys. We wanted to 366 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: be making records like you made. You know, that's what 367 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: we want, and it just did. We all did, and 368 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: no one liked them. You know, we all made British 369 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: Sure where recor was. Liam was in a group called 370 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: Cut to Kill. You know, I used to work with 371 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: this MC called Lord Jat. I mean, we really tried 372 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: to do that, but no one was really interested. And 373 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: then when we used those breakbeats and sped them up 374 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: on the wrong speed, added them to the the techno sounds, 375 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: and you know, we were making this this breakbeat rave sound. 376 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: It's hard called breakbe rave sound. Suddenly everyone wanted to 377 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: know about it. I made that song The Bouncer in 378 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: an hour, and it was a top ten pop wreck. 379 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it was insane, but it was. They weren't 380 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: on the radio, but the movement was so big, The 381 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: grassroots movement was so big. If you had a song 382 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: that was big in those parties, big on pirate radio, 383 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: so many people will go out and by the twelve 384 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: inch you'd find yourself. And so you know, I was 385 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: on top of the pops. How did this happen? You 386 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: know my name and my synth? Can I find the 387 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: Bouncer right now on the streaming service? It could just 388 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: be a question. That is the This was actually a 389 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: mix that was on the B side, but it was 390 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: still pretty good. I get this do it all day. 391 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: That's nice. The thing that strikes me from from hearing that, though, 392 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: is that we were you know, we were making records 393 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: to DJ with. That was that was the only aim, 394 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: and you couldn't really get it wrong. And the records 395 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: we were putting out, and so we were making records 396 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: and we were we were putting out other people's records, 397 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: but they were they were for our DJ set, and 398 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: you couldn't get that wrong. But there was a weakness 399 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: in that approach I've worked out in retrospect, which was 400 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: I got the first thing aphex to've never made, and 401 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: I remember thinking, klenge thing, I can't look at. I 402 00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: get this in my DJ said, though, I can't work 403 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: out where the spits. And I kind of put it 404 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: on the shelf, literally on a shelf where I used 405 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: to sort my records out because he put out a 406 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: white label and I got it from Zoom Records in Camden. 407 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: I tried to get it in my set. I can't 408 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: get this in my set. I knew there was something 409 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 1: interesting with it, but it was like constructs didn't It 410 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: didn't fit the framework exactly, which was a limited framework exactly. 411 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: And so I think the next phase for the label 412 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: was like, well, let's now work with some things which 413 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: don't fit. And what was the first don't fit? Um? 414 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: There was a guy called Badly Drawn Boy who was 415 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: from Yeah. So his debut was really really very very 416 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: good records well, you know, there was a there was 417 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: a ground, a sort of DJ ground there, and that 418 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: he was working with a guy called Andy Votel who 419 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: was like a kind of digger in Manchester, and they 420 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: had a label called Twisted Nerve. So they had their 421 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: little kind of scene going there that their culture and 422 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: Andy was into like crout rock soundtrack movie Italian soundtracks. 423 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: He was a beathead um. He did the artwork, he 424 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: played an important but so it wasn't like completely removed, 425 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: but it was definitely a leap somewhere different to someone 426 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: who was clearing an album artist a live artist. I mean, 427 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: we had one artist called sl two which was in 428 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: the early which was two DJs called Slip Matt and Lime, 429 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: and they had a couple of huge rave singles. They 430 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: were monsters, these songs. And I remember when I tried 431 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: to discuss making an album with them, they were absolutely 432 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: not going to make an album. And the reason for 433 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: that was they said, well, the songs we record at 434 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: the start, by the time we get to the end 435 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: of recording, they're old and this is DJ music like this, 436 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: I'm making this and it goes out now it's just current. Absolutely, 437 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,959 Speaker 1: So they were kind of not making an album as 438 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: an ultimate statement of sort of DJ solid there or something, 439 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: it's amazing. So there's no sell two albums. And you realize, 440 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: because you don't make an album, you do slightly slip 441 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: off of historical absolutely, And you know, it's funny because 442 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: in the early days of hip hop, I never would 443 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: have guessed there would ever be hip hop albums. I 444 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: thought for sure that it was going to remain this, 445 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: this twelve inch format. And it was my partner who said, no, 446 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna make albums, Like, how can you make an 447 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: album that's not what this is? So it's interesting I could. 448 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: I completely understand the perspective of and my reason was different. 449 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily the immediacy of it. It was just 450 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: that the format of these of a long track on 451 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: one side and then maybe an instrumental or a variation 452 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: on it on the b side. And it really did 453 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: function in a way where if you were a DJ, 454 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: you needed all stuff. So if you put that on 455 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: an album, it won't be a good album. If you 456 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: put all those those DJ tools on the album, it's 457 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,239 Speaker 1: not so good, you know. I I returned to that 458 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: kind of eighty six era hip hop and it's not 459 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: nostalgie of this. I think it's very inspiring. There's something 460 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: still very inspiring in it for me. I've also been 461 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: listening to a lot of been, that kind of crowd rock, 462 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: that sort of German progressive stuff of the seventies, and 463 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, there's something about both of those types 464 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: of music for me which just feels it says a 465 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: kind of rawness and a spontaneity going on there. And 466 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: there's you know, I've got I suppose you know, they've 467 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: got the drums in common a lot of it, but 468 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: there's a yeah, I've got a deep abiding love for that, 469 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: for that era of music, it just hasn't gone anywhere. 470 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: Well it again, it's like listening to the Beatles. It's 471 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: like it defines, it defines a style of music. And 472 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: the music that's made since in pup is really different 473 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: than that. I wouldn't say it's worse, it's just different, yes, 474 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: And if you want that, that's where you go to 475 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: get it. It's like there's there isn't anything else that's 476 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: specifically that flavor. Yeah, yeah, but it feels to me 477 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: like there's maybe I mean, I guess this is why 478 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: hip hop has maintained it's relevance. Is I think it's 479 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: to do with a lack of deference to what went before. Yes, 480 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: and I think that's really healthy. Yes, And I don't 481 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: think see one thing I started noticing with with rock 482 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: bands it's a little while ago. None of them When 483 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: I was when I was talking to like band new bands, 484 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: there was a moment where I thought, none of these 485 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: bands think they're going to be better than the Beatles 486 00:27:53,920 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: or even the Stones. They don't think that. Now, rappers 487 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: and R and B artists are in no way looking 488 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: at the people who went before them and saying I'm 489 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: not going to be better than them. That's true, and 490 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: that puts you in a completely because really, if you're 491 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: if you're saying I'm not going to be better than 492 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: something that happened fifty years ago, yes, I would argue, 493 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: you're a little bit screwed. And I think what we're 494 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: seeing there is you know what we're what we're seeing 495 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: in I mean, I was thinking, you know, who's the 496 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: greatest female R and B vocalist of all time? One 497 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: strong argument is that it's Beyonce and that's happening right now. 498 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: So we are in the sort of peak and maybe 499 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: there's more peaks, but we're definitely not going down. Um, 500 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: I don't think she would tell you that she's better 501 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: than Aretha Frank No, No, absolutely, I understand that. But 502 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: she's occupying a very very different space in culture and 503 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: in commercial terms, staggeringly different. Yes, because my understanding is 504 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: that Aretha was not competing with the biggest commercial things 505 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: of her of her era. Depends in different moments. She 506 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: did okay, but as a rule not always the case. Yeah, 507 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: and you know, Beyonce, that feels like an artist where 508 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: on a sort of creative level, on a commercial level, 509 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: things are at such a kind of high that that 510 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: affects everything in its genre, isn't this Everything's kind of 511 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: higher because of that. And Yeah, and rap artists they 512 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: just they just don't have that. I mean, it's amazing. 513 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: We'd like the British thing. No current British rapper knows 514 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: any British rapper in the past, and they are moving forward. 515 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: That seems great. What's happening healthy Right now, We'll be 516 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: back with more from Richard Russell and Rick Rubin. We're 517 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: back with more of Richard Russell. After a badly drawn 518 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: boy who was the next in the well. I think 519 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: then we kind of hit our stride, like something was 520 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: sort of unlocked then. So there was like a run 521 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: where we worked with completely different artists and like basically 522 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: we got to do the opposite of what we did 523 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: in the first place, which is what I really wanted 524 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: because no question, those scenes scenes are a great place 525 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: to start, but you know what starts as the platform 526 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: kind of becomes the jail, you know, and you get 527 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: typecasts really easily. So we were doing in fairly quick 528 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: succession Dizzy Rascal, who was a very very significant game 529 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: changing artist in the UK in terms of he was 530 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: the start. He made the defining masterpiece of crime, the 531 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: Boy in the Corner album, astonishing album, and there was 532 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: something going on there where I was like, because badly 533 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: John Boy had won this thing, the Mercury Prize in 534 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: the UK, which had really helped him. But Dizzy was 535 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,239 Speaker 1: a British rapper whish rap was a dirty, dirty word, yes, 536 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: but he had made a masterpiece. I knew he was 537 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: making a masterpiece, and I felt like, what this artist 538 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: needs is something like that, yes, And I remember actually 539 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: putting them under time pressure and saying this should be 540 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: submitted I mean yet they might totally ignore it, but 541 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: this needs to be submitted to that thing. And he 542 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: ended up winning that prize. Wow, yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, 543 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: and it was a huge thing I think for this 544 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: world where he was coming from a pirate radio, proper 545 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: street music in the UK and he was tell people 546 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: about the Mercury Price because many people in the in 547 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: the in America don't know about that. Well, it's a 548 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: very healthy thing. I mean, obviously we all have to 549 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: be a bit circumspect about awards because it's not it's 550 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: not a reason to be doing things. But the Mercury 551 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: Prize they basically say every year they say these are 552 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: the ten best British albums. This year they name the 553 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: ten records. All of the records kind of win. Yes, 554 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: and it's and it's always by a first album. It's 555 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: not it's not debuts, it's just British records. What I'm think, 556 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: does it have to be their first album? Could be, 557 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: it could be any from any point in their career. Yeah, 558 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: so that I always think of it as a new artist. 559 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: So when skept one a couple of years ago, so 560 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: so they name ten records, but then one is named 561 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: on the night they have a panel and they're in 562 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: a room, yes, and they argue about it on the 563 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: night in some secretive way, and then they come out 564 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: and say, this one's the winner. It's obviously it's always 565 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: a bit controversial, but then that's fine. You know that 566 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: it makes people talk about albums absolutely, So the year 567 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: that Skepto one the other most the other. The argument 568 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: that evening I was told obviously between should the Skepto 569 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: album win or should that final David Bowie album Black 570 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: Star when? And that's just a really healthy, absolutely sort 571 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: of dialogue. And my own record, which is called Everything 572 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: is Recorded, It got was in it last year, so 573 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,719 Speaker 1: that was great and we performed, you know, I got 574 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: everyone who was on the record and we all agree, 575 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: you know. So that was a that was an exciting thing. 576 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: But I think it was it was seismic for Dizzy 577 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: and for grime because because it was it was shedding 578 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: a light on something that people were brushing under the 579 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: rug absolutely and that you know, it was in the 580 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: in the raids and in the you know, it was 581 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: it was bubbling. There was stuff going on, but it 582 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: needed it needed something like that. So yeah, that was 583 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: that was kind of seismic. So there was there was Dizzy, Um, 584 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: there was the White Stripes. You know, I still worked 585 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: with Jack White and so that was a very very 586 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: interesting thing of like they were you know, they were 587 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: some way into it already to what they were doing, 588 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: because they've been putting albums out over here, but I 589 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: think somehow people are sort of bracted them. Was like 590 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: a blues act, a sort of odd act, and kind 591 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: of like initially there was a feeling about the White 592 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: Stripes because they had two albums out of like we 593 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: just don't need to bother with this for some reason. 594 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: But then then there was just that moment where things 595 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: seem to kind of click yes, and suddenly people were 596 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: seeing how exciting and unique this potentially was. And you know, 597 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: Jack's one of these polymath figures. Is very unusual, you know, 598 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: to have all these abilities of virtuoso guitarist, vocalist, writer, producer, 599 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: does the artwork. You know, it was a furniture maker, 600 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: you know, like almost like a prince like spread. So yeah, 601 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: the White Stripes was like it was. They were very 602 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: very successful in the UK. We didn't put their records 603 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: out in America, but they were really like a sort 604 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: of um they just caught on in a huge way 605 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: doing something really original and outside of the mainstream that 606 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: became the mainstream. And then there's this amazing sort of 607 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: seven nation army thing when this has become like I 608 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: actually wonder if that is now the biggest guitar riff 609 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: of all time. I know that's a big claim, but 610 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: it's up there. I mean, you you hear it everywhere. 611 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: You hear you hear I don't even mean I mean 612 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: you people sing the guitar riff everywhere. Yeah, I mean, 613 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: because it became this huge sports thing all around the world, Yes, 614 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: where soccer fans sing that riff. I'd say it's definitely 615 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: the last great guitar riff. Probably not say there never 616 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: be another one, but since um so and then m 617 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: I A where you know this was my A was 618 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: an artist who people really could not get their head 619 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: around in the UK, but we always kind of had 620 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: a feeling that here somehow, and there was an you know, 621 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: I'd had these experiences of coming out here and licensing 622 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: records to people, and we did her record with Interscope 623 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: out here, and that it was pretty helpful, you know, 624 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: to sort of help really show people out and working 625 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: with Diplo. This was the first thing Diplo did, so actually, 626 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: I think Diplo and Maya was a bit of a 627 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: two Alpha's combination, like that wasn't going to last forever, 628 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 1: but it was fireworks while it did. It was really great, 629 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: and they both had a sort of similar approach to 630 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: like a bit of the clash, a bit of dance 631 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: all you know, a bit of Brazilian music, and that 632 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: was this this Yeah, it was very very exciting. And 633 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: then so then we were sort of into this other 634 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: phase where I was wanting to get back in the 635 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: studio and I made this record with girls Apharent so 636 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: then this so this started a kind of other sort 637 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: of another lane open. Yes, and I'm back in the 638 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: studio and I'm making a record with Gil and this 639 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: leads to making a record with Bobby Womack and then 640 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: the Damon albarn Sola record, and uma that Gil was 641 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: going to be the first one, Like did you how 642 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: did it work out that Gil was the first one 643 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: you chose to do? So I was, you know, Liam 644 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: from Prodigy. He was always very good at saying to me, 645 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: are you making beats? A you're making records and you 646 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: were you used to say that to me as well? Yeah, 647 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: and I really know you really like it, y, because 648 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: I love it. I love doing that, I really know. 649 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: And when I didn't do it, it really wasn't good 650 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: for me personally, I mean, you know, I mean, I 651 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: think the label got some benefit from like me being 652 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: one hundred percent folks on a while, and that was good. 653 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: So it wasn't like I wasn't being constructive in that time. 654 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: But I think what happened was in that time I 655 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: built something, Yes, and I also and I populated populated 656 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: it with really great people. And I think at the 657 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 1: time I didn't even know why I felt we needed 658 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: I need such great people there, but I knew I did. 659 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: And then so Liam had said to me, have you 660 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: got a laptop, an Apple laptop with reason on it? 661 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: You're going to like this. This is good beat making stuff. 662 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, well, okay, this is sort 663 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: of interesting. So I got the laptop and I learned 664 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: how to use reason and that led into me learning 665 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: how to use logic, and suddenly I was like making 666 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of beats. I spending all my time 667 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 1: doing it, really loving it. These like very sort of clunky, 668 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: sample based things because I was listening to a lot 669 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: of grime and making all these like little things in headphones, 670 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: all obsessed like a teenager with it. And then Kanye 671 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: had a song on his second album called My Way Home, 672 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: which was sampling girls Home is Where the Hatred Is 673 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: with common wrapping over it, and I remember hearing it 674 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: and thinking, I want to hear a new Girls Got 675 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: Home record. I'm going to make a new Girls Got 676 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: Home record. That's how it's gotta work. So and almost 677 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 1: straight away I started putting songs together because I thought, well, 678 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: it's probably not been writing before you even reached out 679 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: to anything. I stop puting the songs together. Yes, why 680 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: not arm myself with that? And then when I was 681 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: listening for songs for him, I was so alive to 682 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,879 Speaker 1: the music I was hearing. It was like hearing music 683 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 1: for the first time. And then I managed to get 684 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: in touch. That's a really interesting point, is that when 685 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,879 Speaker 1: you're listening to music for a particular project, you listen 686 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: to it beyond the excitement of it. You listen in 687 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: a different way. If the parameters are different. Yes, fascinating, 688 00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: and this is why I think a lot of time 689 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: times people lose their excitement and connection to music is 690 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: because they're not listening to it like they were when 691 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 1: they were a teenager. Yes, they haven't got the newness 692 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: and the excitement. Yes, I think if you've got a 693 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: reason now, I think if that reason is you're trying 694 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: to have hits and make a buck, that won't work, 695 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: That doesn't that doesn't happen. But if you've got whatever 696 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: the reason is, you're trying to find a cover for someone, 697 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: or you've got a theme in mind to explore and 698 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: you want to play someone some references, Wow, you're so open. 699 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,800 Speaker 1: And also what I find happens in it, It leads 700 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,439 Speaker 1: me into new things. And when I say new, either 701 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: newly recorded or old, but new to me, because there's 702 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: a whole world of that out there still, and I'm 703 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,399 Speaker 1: discovering things that to other people are like the most 704 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,879 Speaker 1: important music of their lifetime. I'm just hearing it now 705 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: in so much fun. Hearing music that you've not heard 706 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: before and you're looking for a particular thing for a 707 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: particular reason, And when just that deep dive in that 708 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: vicinity is super fun and we get to learn so 709 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: much about music through the process. Amazing. Yeah, it is 710 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: it is amazing and girl was Girl was incarcerated at 711 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: the time. So we started writing letters to each other 712 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 1: and he was a I mean I like I like 713 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,359 Speaker 1: writing letters. I like writing yes, and he was an 714 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: amazing letter wasse And we used to write these nice 715 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: letters to each other. And I was kind of saying, 716 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 1: I've got this idea and he was like well, but 717 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: we were kind of writing letters to each other. And 718 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: then I went and visited him in Ricaus. I am wow, 719 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:41,720 Speaker 1: and I see in prison for it possession I mean insane. Really, 720 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: you know this is a it's political, isn't it. I 721 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: mean three strikes and out kind of thing. Possession of coke. 722 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I would argue there was nothing sort of 723 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: ethically or morally any more wrong with that than possession 724 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 1: of a bottle of gin. And there you are in jail. 725 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: And when I went to see him, he said the 726 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: first thing he said to me was there you are. 727 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: And it was like, yeah, I don't know. He's like 728 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: he was expecting me to turn up in some slightly 729 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 1: deeper well I'm not exactly sure what I made, but 730 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: there was something about it. There was something about this 731 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: sort of very free conversation. I had with him, and 732 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: I thought they didn't have a very strict sort of 733 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 1: thing there about like right, you're done now, But they 734 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: just didn't really seem that bothered. So we were just 735 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,919 Speaker 1: sitting there having this conversation, and it somehow felt very light. 736 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: It's like a very light energy. Although we were in 737 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: this insane we weren't it. It's like hell, isn't it, 738 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 1: And yet it seemed light. And at one point I 739 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: said to him, you don't. I've noticed you haven't complained 740 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:03,760 Speaker 1: about anything in this conversation, because I was slightly surprised 741 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: by that because I thought, you know, and he said, 742 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: if you complain, no one wants to hang out with you. 743 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: I kind of took that with me. Yeah, And he 744 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:23,439 Speaker 1: did have a he had an immense amount of very 745 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: deep and resonant wisdom, beautiful and that he was happy 746 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: to share. And in terms of making a record, he 747 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: was like he was pretty nonchalant about it. You know, 748 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: he'd had one of those runs of records like the 749 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: Beatles or Bowie. You Beatles in the sixties or Bowie 750 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: in the seventies. He had that in the seventies. You know, 751 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,439 Speaker 1: he made thirteen records in like it was ten years. 752 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: He was never a huge commercial artist. It had a 753 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:02,320 Speaker 1: massive amount of impact, lasting impact, the kind of between 754 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: the politics and the jazz and the jazz aspects of it. 755 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: You know, it's very resonant in music now. I think 756 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: Elscott Harron he's very resonant, very present in music, and 757 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 1: he was he saw I really wanted to make a 758 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,720 Speaker 1: record with him, and he was like, all right, okay, 759 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: let's try it. So happens so and how long had 760 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 1: it been since his last album? Well, so he did 761 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,839 Speaker 1: all these records up until eighty two. Then he didn't 762 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 1: make another record until one in the nineties called Spirits 763 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: Whi's actually really pretty good on TVT ninety seven ish, 764 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: and then no records until this one, so, you know, 765 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 1: and people have suggested things to him, and he just 766 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: didn't fancy it. He was performing live though he was 767 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: active live all the way through. He saw that as 768 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: more his jobs was to perform live. And when people 769 00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: used to ask him when have you got a new 770 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: record coming, he would say, have you heard all my 771 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: old records, because if not, there's a new one for 772 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,719 Speaker 1: you there. Yes, good answer, yeah, I mean it's a 773 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,280 Speaker 1: fair point and it is quite a catalog to study 774 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: his catag There's a lot of very very interesting stuff 775 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: in there. Still reveals itself to me, actually, especially if 776 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: you do the vinyl listening with it, because there's all 777 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: the sleeve notes and stuff. He used to write a 778 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,280 Speaker 1: lot of sleeve notes, and there's a lot of very 779 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: you know, he used to talk about the environment a 780 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: lot in the early seventies, which, you know, you really think, Wow, 781 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,879 Speaker 1: people were onto this fifty years ago. How is it 782 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: that this has happened? You know that we've got here 783 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: and we're kind of just getting alive to it. Yes, 784 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 1: because you know, went to an America. I mean went 785 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,800 Speaker 1: to an America. Sounds like it's about now, so prescient, 786 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 1: unbelievable really. So when he got out, we started recording 787 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 1: initially in what was Philip Glass's studio, Looking Glass You 788 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: ever worked there? It was nice in Soho and then 789 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 1: it closed. I guess it was that era of studios closing. 790 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 1: And then we moved to Clinton in Hill's kitchen and 791 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: that was good. And I would come out to New 792 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,800 Speaker 1: York and record him and then I'd go home. I 793 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: had his Clinton stuff there. Anymore, It's like the doors 794 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: were closing behind us everywhere we left as we as 795 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 1: we went, like I will be back, I'll come back 796 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: in a month, and it was gone. It was a 797 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 1: very interesting phase of like something old phasing out and 798 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,839 Speaker 1: I guess some new things coming in, but I would 799 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,239 Speaker 1: go home and work on it. And also what I 800 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: was doing was I was presenting him with material, a 801 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 1: lot of which was his material, because I had his 802 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,360 Speaker 1: old poetry books beautiful, and I was suggesting parts that 803 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,400 Speaker 1: I thought might be relevant for the piece we were making, 804 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: and he would do, yeah, it worked really well, and 805 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 1: he was doing readings of stuff. So like the into 806 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 1: and outo of the album we made, it's called Oncoming 807 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:06,960 Speaker 1: from a Broken Home, Part one and I'm Coming from 808 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,160 Speaker 1: a Broken and part two. That was a poem that 809 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,239 Speaker 1: was in I was a long piece of a long 810 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 1: poem that was in his poetry book, which was called 811 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: Small Talk at one fifth and Lenox, same as the 812 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,360 Speaker 1: same as his first album that came out in nineteen seventy. 813 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: There's stuff he'd written when he was twenty, but it 814 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: felt so alive to me on the page. So I 815 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 1: would like ediot bits out and say what do you 816 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 1: think of that? And he'd go, yeah, that bit, but 817 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 1: actually there's another bit, and he pulled some more stuff out, 818 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,959 Speaker 1: and then I would sometimes I'd take him like little 819 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,040 Speaker 1: musical sketches I've made, and we had this word spartan. 820 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:49,960 Speaker 1: I'd suggested we made a record that was quite spartan. 821 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,279 Speaker 1: And he used to then pull me up using that 822 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,000 Speaker 1: word because when I played him stuff. So I would 823 00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:58,680 Speaker 1: take home and work in my studio at home in 824 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: the basement, scribe spoken um containing nothing that is not 825 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: absolutely necessary, just the minimum um. And I think I 826 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,919 Speaker 1: found I found early hip hop records to be that, yes, right, 827 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 1: that's what that's my that's my mission in life, right, spartan. 828 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,319 Speaker 1: So I would occasionally playing things and he would say 829 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,399 Speaker 1: what about spartan, because I'd have done a bit too much. 830 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,759 Speaker 1: So he was kind of he was a and R 831 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,879 Speaker 1: and me yes as well, and I've been making all 832 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 1: this stuff, and so I was like, you know, he 833 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,840 Speaker 1: he'd sort of freed me up. He given me permission 834 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,839 Speaker 1: to like make music properly beautiful, you know, and kind 835 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: of get it. I mean, I was making musical ready, 836 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: but I was in the dark on my home and 837 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,920 Speaker 1: he was kind of saying, let's do it together. And 838 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 1: also what was quite interesting was he said, I took 839 00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: a photo of him one day and I said, I 840 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:01,799 Speaker 1: think that's a I think that's a that's like a 841 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:08,359 Speaker 1: that's a cover shot. And he said where are you? 842 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,680 Speaker 1: And I said, well, I'm not on the cover and 843 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: he said, well, it's going to be strange though, isn't 844 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,360 Speaker 1: it when people see the name Girl scot Heron and 845 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,359 Speaker 1: Richard Russell but they only see me. Don't you think 846 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: it's going to confuse him? And I was like, yeah, 847 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,320 Speaker 1: it's not going to say that on it though, it 848 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 1: would say girlscot Heron. And he said, oh no, we've 849 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 1: made this together. Why would you not have your name 850 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 1: on it? That's what I do. And he referred me 851 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 1: back to his albums used to make with Brian Jackson. 852 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 1: They are all built to Girl scot Heron and Brian Jackson. 853 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 1: And I remember the feeling I got when he suggested 854 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: it was actually terror, Yes, doing that your Gil scot Aerin, 855 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,000 Speaker 1: I'm not betting my name. But of course, actually what 856 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,400 Speaker 1: he was suggesting was it was boy. It was very generous, 857 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,319 Speaker 1: but it was also entirely logical and reasonable. The other 858 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,919 Speaker 1: thing was that he was he was he really want 859 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: there to be photos of everyone who's involved in the record, 860 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,759 Speaker 1: in the artwork, which we ended U'm not doing. I 861 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,200 Speaker 1: don't really believe in regret, but that, you know, that 862 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 1: should have happened because he did suggest it. For some reason, 863 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 1: it happened. But he was like the engineer. So I 864 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: played guitar on the song I'm new here. All these 865 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 1: people should be they should be pictured, and that is 866 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,040 Speaker 1: a lovely, you know, way of looking at it. I 867 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: can remember we were recording one of the later Johnny 868 00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: Cash albums and we were doing the song that he suggested, 869 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:37,839 Speaker 1: called We'll Meet Again, and he insisted that everyone who 870 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 1: worked on the project sing on the choruses We'll Meet Again, 871 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:48,719 Speaker 1: and he wanted everybody's voice to be with his. And 872 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,399 Speaker 1: I think he was thinking it was his last album, right, 873 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 1: So I guess that's similar. And was it his last album. 874 00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:58,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was his last album, but 875 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,479 Speaker 1: it was near the end. I mean, I did start 876 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:06,560 Speaker 1: to wonder if there was something because I've ended up 877 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 1: making two records for people where it was their last records, 878 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:16,160 Speaker 1: and I did start to wonder if the So if 879 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 1: you look at an artist making their debut, there's an 880 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: urgency there. Yes, I wondered if that might apply if 881 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:28,839 Speaker 1: you're making your last record with me, and some part 882 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,560 Speaker 1: of you would know, right sure, some part of you 883 00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:36,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't your last record. Um, and you know that Bowie 884 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,279 Speaker 1: Black style record. I suppose that's the most avert one 885 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,880 Speaker 1: where it seems it seems like he very specifically needs 886 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,839 Speaker 1: as well. And I think that's very valuable. I mean, 887 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:51,200 Speaker 1: there's obviously a lot of taboo around death, you know, 888 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,759 Speaker 1: in the West, and it's very counterproductive that. But I 889 00:51:54,800 --> 00:52:00,880 Speaker 1: think you know, maybe you ushered in an era where 890 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,759 Speaker 1: you know, it's like the late career masterpiece and it's 891 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,360 Speaker 1: a great thing, yes, because you know, the sort of 892 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,600 Speaker 1: old fashioned music business idea of like you're washed up, 893 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,879 Speaker 1: you know, it's terrible, Yes, to the idea that people 894 00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,399 Speaker 1: are like when they're past their commercial peak, we haven't 895 00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:22,960 Speaker 1: got anything to hear from them. It's ridiculous. And I 896 00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,520 Speaker 1: think it's always applied worse in music than in other fields. 897 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 1: You know, And you know, you don't want the movie 898 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,680 Speaker 1: director to be in his twenties and it might be right, 899 00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,640 Speaker 1: it might be great, but you definitely like you're not 900 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,640 Speaker 1: going to rule them out because they're in their fifties, sixties, seventies, 901 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,480 Speaker 1: or painters or writers. So I feel like that's the 902 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,400 Speaker 1: kind of area now where like you say, no to 903 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,280 Speaker 1: twenty year olds are the same, Yeah, no to seventy 904 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,920 Speaker 1: year olds are the same. And so you know, we 905 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,319 Speaker 1: can hear a great record from someone of any age. Absolutely, 906 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: as that was one of the best things about the 907 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,600 Speaker 1: success of the Journy Cash records we did were I 908 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,200 Speaker 1: had other i'll call them grown up artists coming to 909 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,520 Speaker 1: me saying I feel like I have permission to make 910 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,879 Speaker 1: something good now before I wouldn't have even tried. It's 911 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,000 Speaker 1: a great thing. And I think that in hip hop, 912 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:17,080 Speaker 1: I would imagine that that last jay Z record is 913 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,439 Speaker 1: going to give people a bit of permission to think, 914 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:23,040 Speaker 1: oh I can grow older in rap. Yes, because I 915 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,799 Speaker 1: think that's a fantastic record. Forty four is brilliant and 916 00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:28,520 Speaker 1: of course, you know, I mean, it wasn't even fifty 917 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:30,239 Speaker 1: when he made it, so of course, why shouldn't you 918 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: make a great record. But I would imagine that's the 919 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,640 Speaker 1: first time that's happened for sure, right, but not the last. 920 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,120 Speaker 1: Richard Russell's book Liberation through Hearing is out now. You 921 00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,840 Speaker 1: should also check out his album Friday Forever Under the Monitor, 922 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,680 Speaker 1: everything is recorded. You can check out a playlist with 923 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,400 Speaker 1: some of our favorite songs on XCEL. On our website, 924 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,120 Speaker 1: Broken record podcast dot com and why are You there? 925 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,800 Speaker 1: Sign up for behind the scenes newsletter Broken Records. Producers 926 00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,040 Speaker 1: help from Jessica Brell, Miila Bell, and Lee Rose. Our 927 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,919 Speaker 1: theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks 928 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:10,200 Speaker 1: for listening. H