1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: On September fourteenth, twenty fourteen, twenty three year old Hannah 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Witherich and twenty four year old David Miller, who'd only 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: just met by chance on Catau, were talking at the 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: ac Bar. The pair, both from the UK, left the 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: bar together around one am. It was the last time 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: either of them was seen alive. Early the next morning, 7 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: on September fifteenth, a beach cleaner found their partially clad bodies. 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: David was floating in the water, Hannah was found on 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: the sand, the waves lapping over her. Detectives discovered a 10 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: garden hoe covered in blood near their bodies, and autopsy 11 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: revealed that David had scratches on his back and water 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: in his lungs, indicating he'd drowned. Hannah's body was covered 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: in wounds, bruising, and scratches. Their deaths sparked international outrage 14 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: and questions about a lack of justice on Katau. Welcome 15 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: to Death Island a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio 16 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: episode ten The Case against Waypo and Zouln. 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 2: I'm Connor Powell, an investigative journalist at KAT Studios, with 18 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnow and Jeff Shane. We'll 19 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: pick up on the conclusion of the last episode shortly 20 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 2: and find out what happened with the information author Sue 21 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 2: Buchanan obtained. As a reminder, Sue received the prosecution files 22 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: in the case against Zouln and Waypo, as well as 23 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: the autopsies of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge and the 24 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 2: DNA analysis done by Thai authorities. But for the moment, 25 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: we wanted to take a look at the history of 26 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: the island of Kotao and how that's shaped where we 27 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: are now. From nineteen forty three to nineteen forty four, 28 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: Kotau had a prison on the island with political prisoners 29 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 2: from the Boro Waddish Upright. In nineteen forty seven, two 30 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: twin brothers from the region came to Kotoo. They brought 31 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: their families to Kotau and soon other ties from Copayang 32 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 2: and neighboring islands came to Kotau to start new lives. 33 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy seven, the first scuba divers came from 34 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 2: other countries to Kotao to explore the surrounding waters. I 35 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: reached out to the Australian lawyer and activist Ian Yarwood 36 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: for a bit more of the context about Kotoo. 37 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 3: It had been the penal colony for quite some time. 38 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 4: There were a lot of political prisoners who were kept 39 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 4: on the island, and then when the political prisoners left, 40 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 4: some of the people from the neighboring islands, oh, well, 41 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 4: we'll move in. And then some foreigners, some expats and 42 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 4: so forth would rock up and they would start doing 43 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 4: things like scuba diving, and then they'd teach some of 44 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 4: the locals how to scuba dive and show them how 45 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 4: to run businesses. And it kept growing, and then boats 46 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 4: and ferries started arriving at the island. 47 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: It just kept expanding. 48 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 1: Here Sam Kruber, a journalist who lives on the neighboring 49 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: island of kop and Yang, and. 50 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 5: This is how Kutau was being built up since the 51 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 5: diving industry had took over in the late seventies early eighties. 52 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 5: It started, and then it became really prosperous business at 53 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 5: the beginning of the nineties. And then diving schools they 54 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 5: just came up like mushrooms in the forest, and this 55 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 5: was big money beachfront. And then big hotels came up 56 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 5: hostels for the young people, and I think Kutao had 57 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 5: in the early days it had maybe ten, twelve, fifteen 58 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 5: diving schools and at the end it had almost one hundred. 59 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 5: So you can see how much money day is involved. 60 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 5: Millions and millions. 61 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: Connor spoke with author and journalist Soup Buchanan, who lived 62 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: on Katao in the late nineteen nineties. She was part 63 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: of the diving culture. 64 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 6: What year is this, That would have been nineteen ninety eight. 65 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 7: I mean Kotao is barely on the map at this. 66 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 6: Point, right, yeah, on many people there were divers. There 67 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 6: was no one If you were diving, why would you 68 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 6: go there? It was nothing else? 69 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: Did What was the security situation like there when you 70 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 2: get there in ninety nine, two thousand, two thousand and one, 71 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 2: what's it like? 72 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 6: There was one tiny police station on top of the 73 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 6: hill between Mayhat and Syre Beach. There's two tiny little 74 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 6: cells in there, but it was pretty much unmanned. There 75 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 6: was no more than two policemen and they were hardly 76 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 6: ever on the island. Everyone had their own security. 77 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 7: And was it safe. 78 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 6: I don't know if you'd call it safe. I mean, 79 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 6: whichever dive school you're at that dive school's got its 80 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 6: own security, and the dive schools didn't really mix that much. 81 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 6: So if you're diving with Big Blue, you don't really 82 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 6: go hanging out with Scuba Junction, And if you're at 83 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 6: Scuba Junction, you don't go hanging out with Asia divers, 84 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 6: and Asia divers don't hang out with Easy divers. So 85 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 6: not only were you on this island, you had your 86 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 6: own little clip from the divers that were at your 87 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 6: dive school. And every dive school had its own security. 88 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 7: And what's the tie presence Like in the diving. 89 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 6: Community, they have to have the majority share that that's 90 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 6: one tie, three ties, five ties, whatever you want. So 91 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 6: there's always got to be ties involved with with whichever 92 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 6: business that you've got, and those ties would be the 93 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 6: ones that would protect you. You know that they would 94 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 6: police the island themselves. But back in those days, it 95 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 6: didn't come across as mafia. It came across as very tribal, 96 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 6: we know, very very tribal. So every part of the 97 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 6: beach had its own village head and that's the person 98 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 6: you go to if you had a problem, and that 99 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 6: would get sorted out. But you know, when I was there, 100 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 6: in the early days. Apart from a couple of incidents, 101 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 6: I didn't see a lot. 102 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: Of trouble again Ian Yarwood. 103 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 4: Well, as far as the police presence is concerned. I 104 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 4: remember being told that when people arrived on the island, 105 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 4: and we're only sort of probably going back to the 106 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 4: nineteen nineties, people would arrive on the island and there 107 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 4: would be a sign to greet you and it. 108 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 3: Would have something like welcome to Kotau. 109 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 4: Population two hundred and fifty and police officers zero. 110 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 3: So it was really just an island that leased itself. 111 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 7: It sounds like the Taire Wild Wild Worst but on 112 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 7: the world. 113 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 4: Yes, it's very much like the wild West, you know, 114 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 4: it's very all us. 115 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: Not only did families on Katao control the security of 116 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: the island, they also controlled the growing tourism industry. The 117 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: first resort opened on Katao in the four Soon more 118 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: resorts followed and a few families came to control most 119 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: of the land and wealth on the island. Sam Gruber 120 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: followed by Sue Puquanan. 121 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,679 Speaker 5: The whole structure in Thailand is that these local guys, 122 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 5: they run the business, they run the show. 123 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 7: Tell me about the families that run the island that 124 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 7: own the island. 125 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 6: The families on Kotao and their ancestors. They were there 126 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 6: before the police. There was nothing going on there apart 127 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 6: from these families, and they ran the island. I mean that, 128 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 6: you know, there weren't police there. I don't think they 129 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 6: meant to be corrupt. I think they just thought these 130 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 6: are our islands. We're running them the way we want 131 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 6: to run them. There's no administration offices, there's no nothing, 132 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 6: so it's like no one knew what was going on 133 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 6: on the islands, and at that time, I don't think 134 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,239 Speaker 6: anybody really cared. I think it's just like a tribal 135 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 6: mentality where you've got the village chiefs running it. And 136 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 6: you know, any police that did turn up on the 137 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 6: island were very quickly made to realize that they worked 138 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 6: for the people who believe they owned the island. I 139 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 6: think you've got to remember that the North of Thailand 140 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 6: and the South of Thailand is completely differ. For it 141 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 6: like southern Thailand, the police are not paid enough. Right 142 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 6: so the police are on a very very very low salary. 143 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 6: They have to ei their own weapons, they have to 144 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 6: buy their own ammunition. So the only way they can 145 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 6: make enough money is to take tea money and take 146 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 6: bribes because they can't easibly live on their salaries. 147 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 7: Two things, when you say tea money, essentially mean likees bribes. 148 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, And just want to be clear, I mean 149 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 7: the police work for the families, right, yeah. 150 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 6: Well their role is to do whatever the family has 151 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 6: tell them to do. 152 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: Sam Gruber doesn't believe that all police on Katao are 153 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: controlled by the families. 154 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 5: It depends which police office is in charge. You have 155 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 5: excellent police broken Thailand whenever they want to, but then 156 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 5: you have the guys behind, and you have a lot 157 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 5: of money involved that everybody knows that money is the 158 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 5: lubricant in Thailand, whether it's a government or the police 159 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 5: forces or whatever. The money is the religion. 160 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: The police on Katao can at times appear blinded by money, 161 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: but according to Ian Yarwood, they're not the only ones 162 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: being seduced by the charms of the island. 163 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 4: So you've got the criminal elements who are very well 164 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 4: entrenched there, and then you've got a lot of expats 165 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 4: who are living there and they may be having a 166 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 4: great life as running a bar or running a scuba 167 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 4: diving school and a murder happens here or there, or 168 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 4: someone gets drugged and raped, but many of them are 169 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 4: just happy enough to turn a blind eye to it, 170 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 4: and they just become complicit in all of the crime there. 171 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 4: We tend to find that the smart people, the decent people, leave, 172 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 4: and people who are prepared to turn a blind eye 173 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 4: to things they hang around. 174 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,119 Speaker 1: The beauty of Cato Mede. It a tourism hotspot. Westerners 175 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: began to settle on the island seeking an escape from reality, 176 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: but more strange incidents were occurring on the island. 177 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 6: Something really wrong is happening here. You're so overwhelmed. You're 178 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 6: living on the beach, you're among the palm trees, you're 179 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 6: diving every day. I think you literally just shut your 180 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 6: eyes to the fact that anything dodgy could be going on, 181 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 6: because I remember thinking about my friends back at home 182 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 6: in the UK and the cold and the rain, working 183 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 6: nine to five, but thinking, there's no way I ever 184 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 6: want to go back to that rat race, and as 185 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 6: long as you live by their rules, you're going to 186 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 6: be all right. So I just put it to the 187 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 6: back of my mind. I mean, I was just a 188 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 6: naive girl living in paradise. There was always an undercurrent 189 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 6: of you know, the certain people you don't upset, there's 190 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 6: certain people you avoid, there's certain things you don't talk about, 191 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 6: And I think you just shut it out because we 192 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 6: didn't want to think there was anything sinister going on 193 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 6: in Kotao, because we wanted to live in Kotao, and 194 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 6: if we left Kotaa, where did we go? So I 195 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 6: often wonder like, what at that point, why didn't I 196 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 6: just pack. 197 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 8: Up and leave? 198 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 7: Why didn't you? 199 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 6: I think because you're living such a different lifestyle than 200 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 6: the one you have brought up with. It's almost like 201 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 6: you're not really living it. It's almost like playing a 202 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 6: video game. It's like it's not real, do you know 203 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 6: what I mean? I think I was just so blinded 204 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 6: by my lifestyle. I wasn't prepared to let anything filter 205 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 6: through that would tell me that I shouldn't be there 206 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 6: because I'd found the place to me, where I belonged, 207 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 6: where I loved it, where I was happy. I didn't 208 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 6: want anything tainting that. And I think a lot of 209 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 6: people are guilty of that, because not just a good lifestyle, 210 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 6: you live in the the best, most incredible life that 211 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 6: you could ever live. I mean, every day is Saturday. 212 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 6: Every day is just from the minute you wake up 213 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 6: to the minute you seek you're doing what you want 214 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 6: to do. Every moment is just the hairs are standing 215 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 6: up on your arms, in your back of your neck 216 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 6: because you know you've got to a concert and there's 217 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 6: a really big drop and you're like, wow, you've felt 218 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 6: like that all the time, constantly. 219 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: So you're now on the island for a couple of 220 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 2: years and you've seen a man covered in brain and 221 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: you've only been there for a couple of years. I mean, 222 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: what's going through your mind about this place at this point? 223 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 6: Nothing, because predominantly, like every day was brilliant. You're in 224 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 6: the middle of nowhere. I mean, it's it's bloody quiet, 225 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 6: you know. So when there's gunshots, you hear them and 226 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 6: you're like, well, you know, ties are fallen out with 227 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 6: each other again. But we didn't really like, we didn't 228 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 6: question it too much. We just wanted to keep diving 229 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 6: and partying and we didn't really worry about that. 230 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: Connor spoke with Ian yer Word about why he thinks 231 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: this is the case. 232 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 4: Most of their focus tends to be on covering up 233 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 4: crimes against tourists because if they actually investigate a crime 234 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 4: and they wind up charging let's say a local type person, 235 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 4: and if that person is ultimately convicted, then that reflects 236 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 4: very badly on Thailand. 237 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: It's all about. 238 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 4: Saving face, and they're very much focused on saving face, 239 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 4: protecting the tourism industry, so that the police either dismiss 240 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 4: any reports about criminal activity or they go out and 241 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 4: they find escapegoat. 242 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 243 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: a moment. This brings us back to the prosecutors files 244 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: and DNA results sou Buchanan obtained in the case against 245 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: Wapo and zou Lamb. The pair were both charged and 246 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: convicted of the murderers of Hannah Withtheridge and David mill 247 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: Connor shared these files with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan 248 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: to get his view on the latest developments. 249 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: Nothing makes sense the DNA if you redetort transcripts and 250 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 2: see the coverage. The judges say that the two boys 251 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 2: were convicted solely on DNA evidence and not on anything 252 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: else because they don't have motive, they don't have the ability, 253 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: they don't have a weapon that ties them. They have 254 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 2: no DNA evidence on the weapon, even though it's a bloody, 255 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: gruesome scene and stuff like that. There was no blood 256 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: on their clothes, but they were convicted solely on the 257 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 2: evidence of DNA, which ties one of them in theory 258 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: to it. 259 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 9: I think the big question is can you track the 260 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 9: provenance of the sample? How well was it protected? And 261 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 9: how would you get an evidence rich or DNA rich sample. 262 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 9: It's one thing to find, you know, what we refer 263 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 9: to as touch DNA, you know, on an external surface, 264 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 9: that's whetre of thing with you know, shedding death skin self. 265 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 9: But when you talk about an evidence rich sample that 266 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 9: arises from semen, you know you're in a different strata 267 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 9: at that point in time. 268 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: It's harder, is that what you're saying? 269 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 9: Yeah, it would be harder to mask. I would think, 270 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 9: you know, I don't know how you would go about 271 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 9: sourcing that. You know, if it is arising from sperm essentially, 272 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 9: how are you going to kind of trick individuals into this? 273 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: Zalin's DNA had one extra marker eighteen, but that it 274 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 2: didn't match the sample taken from Hannah. Is that unusual? 275 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: Is that normal? It would DNA be one hundred percent 276 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I know, not one hundred percent match. But like, 277 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 2: if one of the markers doesn't match, is that somebody 278 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 2: that sends out to you. 279 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 9: No, not particularly. Again, you don't know what the status 280 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 9: of the sample was when they took it. The marker 281 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 9: itself might be something that is an outlier relative to 282 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 9: the testing that they used. But if you have enough 283 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 9: markers to tie back to him specifically, it's it's pretty solid. 284 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 9: It's certainly more solid than any other kind of forensic science. 285 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 9: It's out there just because of the size of numbers 286 00:13:59,040 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 9: that you're talking about. 287 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: But there were questions about the chain of custody of 288 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: the DNA sample. 289 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: If you have a chain of evidence that is by 290 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 2: all accounts, really chaotic and problematic, is it difficult to 291 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 2: just simply relabel somebody's DNA sample as somebody else's just 292 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: just change the name. Is that possible? 293 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 9: Yeah, if you don't have controls over the samples. Again, 294 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 9: I'm bringing an American mindset to it. These are something 295 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 9: that at a very baseline, particularly through QC and labs 296 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 9: quality control, It's something that is one oh one level 297 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 9: stuff because if you cannot guarantee that chain has been 298 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 9: remained is intact, everything else is worthless. It's not worth 299 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 9: a gunpowder to blow it a Hell, so your client, 300 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 9: who is the state, and the courts, the judicial system, 301 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 9: they have to be reassured of the veracity of what's 302 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 9: coming out of there. I can't speak to that. Relative 303 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 9: to this locale. I'd come closer to you know, obviously 304 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 9: the US, Canadian, certainly the Brits, the links that we 305 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 9: go to to ensure provenance of everything. Could somebody get 306 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 9: in there and switch labels? Hell, yeah they could. 307 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: There was one other potentially disturbing insight from the DNA analysis. 308 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: I think the TIE report says there was DNA taken 309 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: from Hanna's vagina and her anus m but it says 310 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: there were different DNA. Is that the way you read it? 311 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 9: Yeah, there was more than one source essentially. You know, 312 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 9: when you're working a case and you have what's referred 313 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 9: to as comingling of biological evidence like this, one of 314 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 9: the first things that you think about is that this 315 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 9: is going to be a multiple sexual assault, almost like 316 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 9: a game rate where you're going to have deposition. It's 317 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 9: one thing to have deposition externally, okay, but when you 318 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 9: have commingling of DNA within an individual, that puts the 319 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 9: dynamic of the event into a completely different realm at 320 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 9: that point in time, and it's just like you have 321 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 9: deposition vaginal deposition now, now you've got atal rectal deposition 322 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 9: as well. So that's that is a significant finding. 323 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: In addition to potential questions about the DNA's chain of command, 324 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: there were also some unusual encounters that happened during z 325 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: LN and wapo's trial. Veteran journalist Sarah Yun, who was 326 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: on the island at the time, shares an experience she 327 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: had with the person at court. 328 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 10: This was a tai police officer sitting in the court who, 329 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 10: as I went to go out of the court, had 330 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 10: to step over him, and as I went to step 331 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 10: over him, he said to me go out, don't come back, 332 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 10: or will kill you. And I didn't really catch what 333 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 10: he said until I was halfway out the door and 334 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 10: thought he did say that. And then I went back 335 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 10: into court from my next relay tag and he was 336 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 10: sitting next to me and he said, did you not 337 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 10: hear me? And I said, yes, I heard you. And 338 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 10: then when we went out of the court that day, 339 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 10: he said, if you don't stop reporting on this trial, 340 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 10: will kill you. And then I simply turned to him 341 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 10: and said, that's fine. What time would you like to 342 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 10: meet me? I don't mind at all. I can meet 343 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 10: you outside at any time you like, and you can 344 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 10: do what you want. And he looked quite surprised and 345 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 10: he didn't answer. So then I said, well, what time 346 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 10: did you like? Five o'clock? So ill meet you outside 347 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 10: at five o'clock, because I'd seen that they tended to 348 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 10: gather outside the court of five o'clock, lazing all over 349 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 10: their wagons. And I went outside at five o'clock and 350 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 10: there were about eight nine policemen sitting by their wagons 351 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 10: in their vests, and I went to walk towards the car, 352 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 10: and they got in the car and drove away. And 353 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 10: then they didn't threaten me after that. But that is 354 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 10: quite normal in Entilen. They don't like women, especially white women, 355 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 10: to confront them. And I was not going to be 356 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 10: stopped from covering this trial. And I didn't think that 357 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 10: they were serious. I mean, if I had vanished, it 358 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 10: might have been really quite obvious. 359 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: The trial also brought to light another detail of the 360 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: crime related to the alleged murder weapon. 361 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 10: And then there was a man and who came to 362 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 10: court who admitted the hoe was his, and it had 363 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 10: been found police in his vegetable patch, buried among black 364 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 10: plastic bags. And this man worked for the owner of 365 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 10: the ac bar. He said that they police had come 366 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 10: to him and had searched his allotment as it were, 367 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 10: and had found the hoe blood stained amongst these black 368 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,239 Speaker 10: plastic bags, and had asked him why he put it there, 369 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 10: and he said, I told them because it was mine. 370 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 10: And then they gave me rubber gloves and they told 371 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 10: me to take this hoe back and put it under 372 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 10: a tree down by the beach, near where the murders 373 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 10: had taken place. There was blood on the hoe, apparently 374 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 10: according to the police, but police at one point said 375 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 10: there were two murder weapons, a hoe and a wooden club, 376 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 10: but then when they got to court there was no 377 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 10: mention of the wooden club and the hoe. They said 378 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 10: there was blood stained. But the man who came to 379 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 10: court and claimed it was his said he'd wiped it 380 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 10: clean because he didn't know what it was. He said 381 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 10: he found it on the beach, picked it up and 382 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 10: though that's my hoe, and had wiped it clean, and 383 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 10: then taken it back and put it amongst the black 384 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 10: plastic bags and at no point did anybody say, well, 385 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 10: is this man a suspect? And there were very few 386 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 10: funny moments in that court, but there was a funny 387 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 10: moment when when he'd finished giving his evidence and he 388 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 10: said to the judge, can I have my hoe back? Said? 389 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 10: He said no, and he said, well, I want it mine, 390 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 10: I want it back. And I think everybody at the 391 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 10: back was like, is anyone going to ask him if 392 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 10: he did it? Because he's quite obviously quite open in 393 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 10: what he was saying, and there seemed to think there 394 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 10: was nothing wrong with being in position of the murder 395 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 10: weapon and then just being asked to go and put 396 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 10: it back on the beach where he found it. 397 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: Who was the man who owned the blood covered hoe 398 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: and who told him to return that hoe back to 399 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: the crime scene. There's still more questions about the weapons 400 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: used in the murders of Hannah and David. Again, Connor 401 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,959 Speaker 1: speaks with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. 402 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 2: One of the things that I've heard is that nobody 403 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 2: thinks the hoe was the only weapon, that there were 404 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 2: likely other weapons. 405 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 9: Yeah, I think so too, including a. 406 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 2: Punch knife, maybe rock or something like that. I mean, 407 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: there's just there were other things. Yeah, what they did 408 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 2: to Hannah may have been different with than what they 409 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 2: did to David. And again, one of the many reasons 410 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: that Zalin and Wapo, the two Burmese boys that were convicted, 411 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 2: are unlikely as actual suspects, is that they're both tiny 412 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: little people. I think one of them is even smaller 413 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: than Hannah. And David was a gigantic guy. I mean, 414 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 2: was well over six foot two hundred pounds, big, strong, 415 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: young guy and is likely not going to be overpowered 416 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: by these two Burmese guys. So I think most people 417 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: tend to think that they were larger men, multiple people 418 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: carrying multiple weapons. 419 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 9: Yeah, and I got to tell you what I'm seeing here, 420 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 9: you know, reoccurring in I don't know if you can 421 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 9: see that. This is his autopsy report. They're using this 422 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 9: term torn. He's been beaten with something, So there might 423 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 9: be these punk Tate injuries that you're referring to. There's 424 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 9: a lot of abraided injuries that he's got. And what 425 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 9: I mean by that, when you get blunt for strikes, 426 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 9: you'll get it. Not only do you get contusions, but 427 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 9: you'll also get these abrasions because there's a lot of 428 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 9: friction that goes on when they think strike the skin. 429 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 9: So you'll you'll get, yeah, you'll get like a big 430 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 9: confused area brus and you'll also get this friction almost 431 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 9: like sandpaper over the skin. And that's part of the 432 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 9: ripping and tearing that you get with the laceration. He's 433 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 9: got multiple of these, Connor suffice to say, he's have 434 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 9: the hell beat out of him. What you're looking at 435 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 9: here are probably multiple assailants and maybe multiple multiple weapons 436 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 9: that are being brought to It just sounds like a 437 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 9: I don't want to use the word mob. It sounds 438 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 9: like a group of people descended upon them, you know. 439 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 9: And I'm sure that other people have postulated that as well. 440 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's the theory that was painted on 441 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 2: day one that was later thrown away in for these 442 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: two Burmese boys. 443 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: Potential multiple assailants and weapons, faulty DNA evidence. There were 444 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: also some questions about bloody clothes found in David Miller's bungalow. 445 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 2: And there was clothes that were covered in blood found 446 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: in David's bungalow. 447 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, we've got photographs like a very light hand sort 448 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 6: of color pair of trousers that had blood over the 449 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 6: bottom of them, and they found some like bloody bandages 450 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 6: in the bin there as well. I mean, no one 451 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 6: ever gave any account as to where that came from. 452 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 6: David certainly wasn't wearing long pants the night he was 453 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 6: murder but they were long pants, you know, they were 454 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 6: not short they were long pants. Yeah, they did find 455 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 6: bloodied clothing at David's bungalow, which is interesting because they 456 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 6: never found any bloodied clothing at white yours or in 457 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 6: bungalow as Ever, why were those trousers never tested? Hannah's 458 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 6: clothes were never tested for DNA. 459 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 9: You know why. 460 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 2: Hannah's clothes were never tested? Was ever an official reason? 461 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: No? 462 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 6: No, there was never an official reason, no official reason whatsoever. 463 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,479 Speaker 6: I mean, they just didn't test them. And you know 464 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 6: the bite mark on her breast, I mean, was that tested? 465 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 6: Where's DNA from that? 466 00:22:46,920 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. Here again, Connor speaking 467 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: with Joseph Scott Morgan about the DNA results of the 468 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: bite mark on Annah Withridge's breast. 469 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 2: One of the other things that stuck out was that 470 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: the bite DNA did not match either of the two 471 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 2: boys who are convicted. What do you make of that. 472 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 9: Well, you know that they would have gotten salivary DNA 473 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 9: sourcing from that, which is a pretty good source. They 474 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 9: obviously did swabs of the areola and I read that 475 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 9: you know in there. If that is the case, you know, 476 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 9: and again we're you know, kind of postulating, could what 477 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 9: could have happened in an event like this. If you're 478 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 9: trying to restrain someone and someone is participating in a 479 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 9: gang rape, you might have someone holding down holding down 480 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 9: this individual, and a bite could take place by somebody 481 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 9: that's not involved in the actual penetrative event. Now to 482 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 9: the point of where she's bitten on her breast, they 483 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 9: would have because that's a non protected area. You know, 484 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 9: she's got some type of clothing on. They talk about 485 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 9: a pink garment that she's wearing in the autopsy report 486 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 9: that's kind of pushed down her body. Her remains would 487 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 9: have had to have been protected pretty well in order 488 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 9: to acquire that sample, that sal very you know, DNA sample. 489 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 9: It's not beyond reason to think that you could have 490 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 9: a group of people that would participate in a horrific 491 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 9: event like this and then suddenly, you know, after they're 492 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 9: stated in some way, they lose taste for completing the event. 493 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 9: The other individuals may back off at that point in time, 494 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 9: but they've still left a trace, a trace of themselves behind. 495 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 9: That might be the case here. 496 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 2: Does it suggest that there is a third person, at 497 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 2: least a third person involved in this rape murder? 498 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 9: Oh yeah, yeah, you're you know, because naturally, you know, 499 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 9: people are very protective of their bodies. You would not expect, 500 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 9: you know, to take a random person off of the 501 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 9: street and swab their breast area and find foreign DNA there, 502 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 9: particularly if it's salivary deposition, which is what they specifically 503 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 9: talked about in the sport. That's an odd thing. So 504 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,239 Speaker 9: it leads us logically to conclude that there would have 505 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 9: to be an additional person involved, and maybe more than that. 506 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: As more evidence comes to light, the last moments of 507 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: Hannah and David seem even more horrifying, and the people 508 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: who may have more information are not speaking. 509 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 6: They completely went off the radar. They're either scared or 510 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 6: you know, they've been just completely frightened off, or they 511 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 6: know more. Eight years later, people in Jersey, people in England, 512 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 6: people in Milan are afraid to speak. Eight years down 513 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 6: the line, they are not talking. 514 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, there was a development in Thailand that 515 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: made it even more difficult to find answers about the 516 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: suspicious deaths on Katau Again. Journalist Sarah Yun. 517 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 10: In the February after the trials of the government announced 518 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 10: that freelance journalism was to be banned in Thailand. And 519 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 10: I was working as a freelance journalist, and they said 520 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 10: all freelanch jundes banned under threat going to prison and 521 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 10: to be sent out of the country to be deported. 522 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 10: And I thought that was a very strange thing to 523 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 10: announce just then. 524 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: As a reminder, Soup Buchanan's reporting on the crimes and 525 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: Katao eventually led to a search weren't being issued for 526 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: her arrest. 527 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 6: So I wrote this story about a girl who was raped. 528 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 6: They said I made the story up, so they tried 529 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 6: and do me for computer crimes, fake news, bringing Thailand 530 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 6: into disrepute and inciting national panic. Bearing in mind, when 531 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 6: I wrote this story, I was in the UK, my 532 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 6: server was in Singapore, and my companies registered in the Philippines. 533 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 6: So have I committed a crime in Thailand? The trial 534 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 6: finished and in twenty fifteen. I left. In twenty sixteen 535 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 6: and then I can't go back now because the stupid 536 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 6: Parseholds are putting a restaurant out for me. I mean, 537 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 6: I've got a bloody foray and I'm gonna all my 538 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 6: stuff in it. I can't go ahead. 539 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: It's important to note that both wave Po and ze 540 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: Lyn have been found guilty. Here again Connor and forensic 541 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: expert Joseph Scott Morgan. 542 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 2: The belief is that the murderer's DNA is the correct 543 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 2: DNA that was taken from Hannah's body, but it's attributed 544 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 2: to the wrong person because of the haphazard nature of 545 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 2: the evidence collection. 546 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 9: How do you suss that out? Though? I mean, I 547 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 9: know you're the one asking the questions. I'm curious. Do 548 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 9: they have a suspect somebody within this mob that they 549 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 9: believe You know, you talked about the Grand Pooba, but 550 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 9: I mean, is there a henchman or something. 551 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a couple of people that are believed to 552 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: have been there as well. 553 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 9: Yeah. No matter what you present to them, you might 554 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 9: as well spit in the ocean. It's not going too 555 00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 9: much to raise the water level. 556 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 2: We're not trying to exonerate them, We're just trying to 557 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: get them out of the prison. I think that's sound 558 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 2: of like the best case scenario because the king apparently 559 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 2: has the ability to send them home. 560 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: Well, we weigh on updates from Subi Cannon's plan to 561 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: appeal to the king. More mysterious deaths continue to occur 562 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: on Katao. Here's Sarah Yun. 563 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 10: I don't think justice is a thing that is a 564 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 10: greatest importance in Thailand. Loss of face is the biggest importance. 565 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 10: Unless the police investigate these situations, there is no way 566 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 10: of finding out what actually caused the death. But I 567 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 10: fear that we're talking about an island that is not 568 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 10: ruled from Bangkok. It's ruled by a family on the 569 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 10: island who've probably been there since this island used to 570 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 10: be a prison, and they run this island and they 571 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 10: are the ones who decide what happens on that island. 572 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 10: But I know that this whole podcast is looking at 573 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 10: all the events on Kotaus. All these things are as 574 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 10: important as the trial for Hannah and David. But I 575 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 10: think what the trial for Hannah and David proved was 576 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 10: that an unreliable police investigation will be overlooked, And that 577 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 10: to me, is the link between all these different deaths 578 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 10: on the island that at no point has there been 579 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 10: a reliable police investigation. And maybe the government's hands were 580 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 10: tied as much as the police hands were tied. Maybe 581 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 10: you know, it's the duel in the crown of the 582 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 10: tie tourism industry and they just wanted it all to 583 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 10: go away. 584 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 11: My heart goes out to Hannah and David's parents and 585 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 11: all the parents who've lost kids on that island, because 586 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 11: you want the best for your children. You want them 587 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 11: to see the world, you want them to explore and 588 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 11: spread their wings, and for them to come home in 589 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 11: a coffin is well, it's the worst thing. 590 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 12: Can you imagine what it must be like to get 591 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 12: that phone call as a parent. It's the staff of nightmares. 592 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 3: It's horrific. It's absolutely horrific. 593 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 12: The number of people who died going to Kotau, and 594 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 12: you know, in lots of instances, the circumces in which 595 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 12: they've died is just not in any way satisfactory to 596 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 12: the families finding out what truly happens, whether it's somebody 597 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 12: jumping off the roof of a building into a swimming 598 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 12: pool and then dying as a result, or somebody dying well, 599 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 12: scuba diving, or somebody dying with their hands tied behind 600 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 12: their back, but they're supposed to have hanged themselves. You know, 601 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 12: all of those deaths are absolutely tragic, and it must 602 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 12: be awful because if you're those. 603 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 8: Families, then the questions just keep coming. You know about 604 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 8: your son or daughter and the circumstances in which they died, 605 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 8: and you just want to know the truth, and the 606 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 8: questions won't ever stop unless you've got confidence in the 607 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 8: authorities to get to the bottom of it. 608 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: If you have any information about any of the cases 609 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: discussed in this series, please contact us at producers at 610 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: KTESH studios dot com. For more information and relevant photo 611 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. Death Island 612 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Jeff Shane, 613 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 614 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Tis. Music by Vancor Music. Death 615 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: Island is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For 616 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 617 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.