WEBVTT - Craig Finn Holds Steady 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:22.116 Pushkin. Hey, y'all, before we get started, let's talk about Pushnick. 0:00:22.556 --> 0:00:26.916 Pushnick is a subscription program available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. 0:00:26.956 --> 0:00:31.356 Subscriptions members will get access to bonus content like extended 0:00:31.436 --> 0:00:34.756 versions of Our Quest Love and Beastie Boys episodes. You'll 0:00:34.796 --> 0:00:38.476 also get uninterrupted ads free listening to many of your 0:00:38.516 --> 0:00:43.276 favorite podcasts like Ours, Revisionist History, Cautionary Tales, and The 0:00:43.316 --> 0:00:46.436 Happiness Lab. You can try it for free for seven days. 0:00:47.036 --> 0:00:57.476 Sign up for Pushnick and Apple podcast subscriptions. Craig Finn, 0:00:57.716 --> 0:01:00.356 the lead singer and songwriter for The Hold Steady, is 0:01:00.436 --> 0:01:04.276 known for his vivid, literary style songwriting. He often writes 0:01:04.276 --> 0:01:08.676 about characters going through an existential crisis, what the one 0:01:09.196 --> 0:01:16.876 saw and the astray in the kitchen. I could tell 0:01:16.916 --> 0:01:22.076 that it was difficult to bring that sort of subject 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:26.356 to Craig Finn grew up in Minneapolis, going to gigs 0:01:26.396 --> 0:01:29.836 for hometown heroes like Prince and The Replacements. After a 0:01:29.876 --> 0:01:32.556 stint working as a financial broker, Finn moved to New 0:01:32.636 --> 0:01:35.396 York City and eventually formed The Old Steady in two 0:01:35.396 --> 0:01:39.676 thousand and three. This year, the band released their eighth 0:01:39.676 --> 0:01:43.996 studio album, Open Door Policy, and this time, Finn says 0:01:44.036 --> 0:01:46.916 he focused on themes related to the trappions of technology 0:01:47.196 --> 0:01:52.236 and late stage capitalist. On today's episode, Craig Finn talks 0:01:52.236 --> 0:01:54.716 to Bruce head them about how the Drive by Truckers 0:01:54.716 --> 0:01:58.276 inspired him to create The Old Steady, about how Springsteen 0:01:58.316 --> 0:02:00.556 taught him to vamp, and why he feels like it's 0:02:00.556 --> 0:02:03.036 his duty to not only write about the party, but 0:02:03.116 --> 0:02:09.196 to write about the hangover. Two. This is broke and 0:02:09.276 --> 0:02:12.636 record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmondson. 0:02:17.516 --> 0:02:20.836 Here's Bruce Sedlam with Craig Finn. This is a thrill 0:02:20.916 --> 0:02:24.516 for me for many reasons, but one is that the 0:02:24.556 --> 0:02:27.436 person who introduced me to your music was my old 0:02:27.476 --> 0:02:31.236 colleague David Carr at the New York Times. Now, David 0:02:31.236 --> 0:02:34.356 like you was very funny, which is rare in pop 0:02:34.516 --> 0:02:37.836 music and rare at the New York Times, i should say. 0:02:38.036 --> 0:02:41.036 And he was from Minneapolis, and he could never explain 0:02:41.116 --> 0:02:44.236 to me what was in the water in that part 0:02:44.236 --> 0:02:47.516 of the world that produced like such a great scene 0:02:47.596 --> 0:02:51.076 for bands. I mean, everyone points to the cold and 0:02:51.196 --> 0:02:55.196 the reason to stay inside. I always felt like when 0:02:55.236 --> 0:02:57.676 I was coming up in the nineties, there were people 0:02:57.756 --> 0:03:01.956 going to shows regularly in Minneapolis, like attending shows at 0:03:01.956 --> 0:03:04.356 First Avenue of the big club there that if they 0:03:04.396 --> 0:03:06.916 lived in another city maybe wouldn't have been going to 0:03:07.116 --> 0:03:08.876 that many shows, you know. I mean, I just think 0:03:08.876 --> 0:03:10.676 it was kind of part of the fabric of the city, 0:03:10.796 --> 0:03:12.476 and I think the city's proud of it, you know, 0:03:12.556 --> 0:03:14.516 I mean, I think that the city puts forth, Hey 0:03:14.516 --> 0:03:16.996 where the place where the replacements came from? Who's ker Do, 0:03:17.516 --> 0:03:21.316 Prince obviously now Lizzo, you know, has some connection to 0:03:21.316 --> 0:03:25.036 the city which they put forth constantly. It's always been 0:03:25.116 --> 0:03:27.796 a source of pride for the city. When you grew up. 0:03:27.876 --> 0:03:32.076 Was there a sharp divide between the black clubs and 0:03:32.236 --> 0:03:35.956 where Prince sort of made his name and the white 0:03:35.956 --> 0:03:38.636 clubs for replacements and that kind of thing. You know, 0:03:38.676 --> 0:03:43.516 there's certainly is a segregated city, But um, I think Prince, 0:03:43.636 --> 0:03:47.876 you know, really is connected with First Avenue, which is 0:03:47.916 --> 0:03:51.356 this place that a lot of music has come from, 0:03:51.356 --> 0:03:54.836 and certainly the place where I saw the shows in 0:03:54.916 --> 0:03:57.156 my formative years. You know, this is where I saw 0:03:57.156 --> 0:03:59.636 the replacements and Who's ker Do, et cetera, sol Asylum 0:03:59.956 --> 0:04:02.436 and Prince, you know in Purple Rain. That's that's the 0:04:02.476 --> 0:04:05.196 setting of it, and you know, people have often been 0:04:05.236 --> 0:04:07.516 mistaken that he owned it, So Prince is very much 0:04:07.516 --> 0:04:10.076 connected to the same club that everything was happening. I'm 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:13.796 not sure it's a big enough city to have, you know, 0:04:14.196 --> 0:04:16.836 massive amount of clubs and have that kind of divide. 0:04:16.876 --> 0:04:20.716 Everything gets, you know, in some way mushed together just 0:04:20.756 --> 0:04:24.156 by the size of the city. Yeah, So for you, 0:04:24.796 --> 0:04:27.596 was it the live scene or was there a particular record, 0:04:27.636 --> 0:04:30.676 a particular song that you heard when you were a 0:04:30.756 --> 0:04:33.756 kid that said, yeah, this is it. This is either 0:04:33.796 --> 0:04:36.316 what I love or what I'm gonna do. I have 0:04:36.396 --> 0:04:40.196 this thing where I remember seeing someone on TV. I 0:04:40.196 --> 0:04:42.756 believe this is Ray Charles playing when I was very young. 0:04:42.796 --> 0:04:45.356 I think it was on Sesame Street and I looked 0:04:45.356 --> 0:04:48.436 at the screen and I said, I knew Happy Days. 0:04:48.436 --> 0:04:51.916 I knew Fonzie was cool, right, So I said, hey, Mom, 0:04:52.116 --> 0:04:55.476 is that guy cool? And she said, yeah, he's cool. 0:04:55.516 --> 0:04:57.956 And I said, do we know anyone cool? She said no. 0:04:58.556 --> 0:05:00.676 And I remember at that moment being like, well, this 0:05:00.716 --> 0:05:03.356 is this is kind of annoying, Like I want to 0:05:03.356 --> 0:05:05.276 go find something cool. And one of the first things 0:05:05.316 --> 0:05:08.196 I remember another that attracted me was the Monkey's TV 0:05:08.276 --> 0:05:11.276 show I mean, this guy idea of guys living together 0:05:11.316 --> 0:05:14.196 and bursting into songs and having a good time while 0:05:14.196 --> 0:05:17.556 playing music to music excited me always. But I think 0:05:17.596 --> 0:05:21.196 the real kind of watershed moment was discovering local things 0:05:21.556 --> 0:05:24.876 in Minneapolis, And so having these bands in my hometown 0:05:25.396 --> 0:05:29.596 was somehow exciting and accessible to me and made me 0:05:29.636 --> 0:05:31.716 sort of believe maybe that I could be in a 0:05:31.716 --> 0:05:34.676 band too, in a way that led Zeppelin and Aerosmith 0:05:34.756 --> 0:05:37.436 had not previous. And then when did it start? Feed 0:05:37.516 --> 0:05:40.516 was guitar your first instrument? Yeah? I started playing guitar. 0:05:40.596 --> 0:05:43.836 I got to get an electric guitar, and actually a 0:05:43.836 --> 0:05:48.436 bit of luck, fortuitous luck, signed up for lessons and 0:05:48.596 --> 0:05:50.716 a guy who was teaching lessons at that guitar store 0:05:50.796 --> 0:05:52.956 was named Chris Osgood and he'd been a member of 0:05:52.996 --> 0:05:55.556 a band called the Suicide Commandos, which was sort of 0:05:55.556 --> 0:05:59.036 the first Minneapolis punk band. They'd signed to Blank Records 0:05:59.036 --> 0:06:02.636 in like seventy six with Perubu, and he was a 0:06:02.676 --> 0:06:05.036 fountain of knowledge, you know. He taught me a lot 0:06:05.036 --> 0:06:07.716 about playing guitar, but a lot about other things too, 0:06:07.756 --> 0:06:10.516 And he had this fun off like he had a landline, 0:06:10.516 --> 0:06:13.796 you know phone in his lesson room and when phone 0:06:13.836 --> 0:06:16.236 would ring, he'd turn up the stereo and then he 0:06:16.316 --> 0:06:19.396 answered the phone, which is you know, countered a normal logic, 0:06:19.636 --> 0:06:21.156 and I would always say, what what are you doing? 0:06:21.196 --> 0:06:23.116 He said, you always want him to make you know, 0:06:23.476 --> 0:06:26.236 make you think you're having a party. So he had 0:06:26.276 --> 0:06:28.116 a lot of tips like that, and he turned me 0:06:28.156 --> 0:06:30.156 onto a lot of cool music once he heard what 0:06:30.236 --> 0:06:33.756 I was into and kind of got me started on 0:06:34.196 --> 0:06:37.676 sort of the lifestyle, if you will. So you mentioned 0:06:37.676 --> 0:06:39.956 the lifestyle. So that brings us to your new album 0:06:40.516 --> 0:06:43.756 with the whold Steady open door policy. If anybody thought 0:06:43.756 --> 0:06:46.596 you were mellowing with age with your solo albums, you're 0:06:46.716 --> 0:06:49.076 right back in the right into the heart of the 0:06:49.116 --> 0:06:53.876 wold Steadies. I guess worldview a lot of desperate people 0:06:54.076 --> 0:06:56.796 kind of doing desperate things. Tell me about the writing 0:06:56.796 --> 0:07:00.716 of this album, the album, I think one thing was 0:07:00.956 --> 0:07:03.516 different from the last one. You know, we in twenty 0:07:03.556 --> 0:07:05.876 nineteen we put our record called Thrashing through the Passion. 0:07:06.196 --> 0:07:07.996 There was a collection kind of a single, so we 0:07:07.996 --> 0:07:12.156 were putting stuff out as we as we recorded it, really, 0:07:12.356 --> 0:07:14.836 which is exciting. I mean, the technology now allows you 0:07:14.876 --> 0:07:16.236 to do that, and we know how to get at 0:07:16.236 --> 0:07:18.796 our fans right through the you know, social media and whatnot. 0:07:19.236 --> 0:07:21.396 So we're putting that out and then we ended up 0:07:21.476 --> 0:07:25.996 kind of compiling them to make a release. And that's cool, 0:07:26.116 --> 0:07:29.316 but when you're releasing quote unquote singles that way, you're 0:07:29.396 --> 0:07:33.076 kind of always swinging for the fences. So for this record, 0:07:33.196 --> 0:07:36.076 we decided early on, let's make this an album, and 0:07:36.116 --> 0:07:38.196 we we didn't record it all at once. We recorded 0:07:38.276 --> 0:07:41.916 in two different sessions. But in choosing to make an album, 0:07:42.036 --> 0:07:44.356 it allowed me, especially as a lyricist, to make some 0:07:44.436 --> 0:07:47.596 decisions in a way that kind of circle the wagons 0:07:47.596 --> 0:07:50.876 a little bit, maybe make things make a whole, you know, 0:07:51.076 --> 0:07:54.076 kind of create a bigger body of work than just 0:07:54.116 --> 0:07:57.316 a collection of singles. And I think that was that's exciting. 0:07:57.396 --> 0:08:00.396 I like working that way. I grew up listening to albums, 0:08:00.476 --> 0:08:02.316 you know, and I think that's kind of what we're 0:08:02.356 --> 0:08:04.676 good at. I mean, I think that like we've worked 0:08:04.796 --> 0:08:09.196 with that length of format before successfully and so I 0:08:09.276 --> 0:08:10.836 think that was kind of fun for us to go 0:08:10.876 --> 0:08:13.116 back in that we're able to create something that was 0:08:13.196 --> 0:08:16.116 kind of overarching like that. Do you see it as 0:08:16.196 --> 0:08:19.116 like there's an arc story arc to the album, or 0:08:19.196 --> 0:08:21.756 just means that you can take risks on certain songs. 0:08:22.276 --> 0:08:25.276 The latter I mean, I think you if you're releasing singles, 0:08:25.276 --> 0:08:27.796 you're never gonna make the weird ending song. You're never 0:08:27.836 --> 0:08:30.276 gonna say, Okay, that can be a little short song 0:08:30.356 --> 0:08:32.996 that sets up this next song. So the album allows 0:08:32.996 --> 0:08:34.996 you to do things like that. But and in a 0:08:35.116 --> 0:08:37.316 sense it's I don't know that it's a concept record, 0:08:37.676 --> 0:08:40.196 but I was able to kind of early on identify 0:08:40.356 --> 0:08:43.636 themes and kind of keep writing at it. And I thought, 0:08:43.676 --> 0:08:46.076 you know, the things I was thinking about at the time, 0:08:46.236 --> 0:08:49.116 or things like certainly mental health, but also you know, 0:08:49.196 --> 0:08:53.316 kind of technology and late stage capitalism sort of how 0:08:53.396 --> 0:08:55.916 that all ties into it and how that affects the 0:08:55.956 --> 0:08:59.116 stories on the record. The record was all written and 0:08:59.556 --> 0:09:03.196 almost done by the end of twenty nineteen. And it's 0:09:03.196 --> 0:09:05.556 funny because I think back and at the time, twenty 0:09:05.636 --> 0:09:08.516 nineteen felt like a very heavy year. Yeah, then we 0:09:08.596 --> 0:09:12.236 had twenty twenty where this record kind of aged like 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:15.156 a you know, like in an oak barrel of whiskey 0:09:15.236 --> 0:09:18.436 or whatever. You mentioned technology. And one thing I think 0:09:18.436 --> 0:09:21.636 your album grapples with, which I think is hard for 0:09:21.716 --> 0:09:26.276 songwriters is the effect of technology. You know, I'm thinking 0:09:26.316 --> 0:09:28.596 and I want you to talk about the song Spices, 0:09:29.396 --> 0:09:31.476 but that's about the sort of return of an old 0:09:31.516 --> 0:09:36.076 flame who sends somebody a photo over text. Yeah, I 0:09:36.076 --> 0:09:37.916 mean I was thinking about like, like, you know, from 0:09:37.916 --> 0:09:40.276 the years of touring, I just got a new phone, 0:09:40.276 --> 0:09:43.076 and you know, they transfer all the contacts and there's 0:09:43.116 --> 0:09:45.836 just people in there, right, you know, I mean, there's 0:09:45.876 --> 0:09:48.996 just all kinds of people, people I don't recognize whatever, 0:09:49.076 --> 0:09:50.916 you know that maybe I did an interview, I needed 0:09:50.916 --> 0:09:53.476 to connect with them, and all of a sudden, any 0:09:53.476 --> 0:09:55.636 of those people can pop up on your screen. And 0:09:55.676 --> 0:09:59.036 I was thinking about, Oh, an adventure starting by really 0:09:59.076 --> 0:10:02.116 anything kind of you know, popping up in this device 0:10:02.196 --> 0:10:05.996 you're carrying around and saying meet me here, and you know, 0:10:06.036 --> 0:10:10.156 our ability to transmit images as you say, And that 0:10:10.276 --> 0:10:14.076 seemed like a very modern start to a story, like 0:10:14.156 --> 0:10:16.796 it's almost to choose your own adventure or something, you know, 0:10:16.996 --> 0:10:19.836 the clues pop up on your phone and you're following blindly. 0:10:19.956 --> 0:10:22.516 That was kind of the idea behind Spices. But yeah, 0:10:22.516 --> 0:10:25.596 you can reconnect in a second, in a in a 0:10:25.596 --> 0:10:29.516 couple of keystrokes and contact someone and that's that's unique 0:10:29.516 --> 0:10:33.076 to our times. And I think the way we communicate, 0:10:33.156 --> 0:10:36.596 the way we use technology certainly affects all of this, 0:10:36.796 --> 0:10:41.516 you know, the political discourse, our friendships, etc. You know, 0:10:41.556 --> 0:10:44.076 I was thinking this in terms of probably the songs 0:10:44.196 --> 0:10:47.316 you grew up loving. I know you're you know, Springsteen 0:10:47.476 --> 0:10:50.516 is one of your heroes, mentors, whatever you want to 0:10:50.516 --> 0:10:52.516 call them. You know, a song like Darkness on the 0:10:52.596 --> 0:10:55.836 Edge of Town is about somebody telling somebody that if 0:10:55.876 --> 0:10:58.596 they want to tell somebody else how to find him, 0:10:59.156 --> 0:11:00.996 they can find him in the edge of town. And 0:11:01.036 --> 0:11:04.476 it's it's about disconnection in a way. It's about someone's 0:11:04.476 --> 0:11:07.236 moved on with their life. And I was thinking about 0:11:07.236 --> 0:11:08.956 that when I was listening to Spices, because I thought, 0:11:09.156 --> 0:11:11.956 but yeah, but that person can be recalled instantly now, 0:11:12.236 --> 0:11:15.556 or that person leaves, but you're following them on Instagram. 0:11:15.556 --> 0:11:19.076 It's like they don't leave your life. Somehow, they don't leave. 0:11:19.156 --> 0:11:21.316 And you know, there's this also this thing that I 0:11:21.796 --> 0:11:24.396 was like, I've been amused by lately. Sometimes you'll meet 0:11:24.436 --> 0:11:28.796 someone right and it's your friends dating someone saying, and 0:11:29.076 --> 0:11:31.036 you follow you You have a nice night out with 0:11:31.116 --> 0:11:33.916 this couple, and then you end up following that their date. 0:11:34.236 --> 0:11:36.716 And this has happened to me several times recently. They 0:11:36.836 --> 0:11:39.356 break up with this girl or this you know that 0:11:39.516 --> 0:11:43.676 this partner, and you don't know. So it turns out 0:11:43.956 --> 0:11:46.276 years later you're still following this person that you had 0:11:46.316 --> 0:11:48.476 one night, you know, and a nice dinner with. At 0:11:48.516 --> 0:11:51.076 some point then suddenly you realize that they're not even 0:11:51.196 --> 0:11:53.596 that connected in my life anymore. There's a lot of 0:11:53.596 --> 0:11:56.276 that in this album, you know. I think of Unpleasant Breakfast, 0:11:56.276 --> 0:12:00.796 which is another sort of recalling of a bad relationship. Yeah, 0:12:00.836 --> 0:12:04.556 I mean I think that was no this nostalgia that 0:12:04.596 --> 0:12:08.196 we have and and in that case someone you know. 0:12:08.316 --> 0:12:10.836 Mental health is a big part of this record, you know. 0:12:10.876 --> 0:12:12.716 I mean I think I always used to I feel 0:12:12.756 --> 0:12:15.476 like I used to write a lot about partying, and 0:12:15.596 --> 0:12:19.116 at some point, you know, I'm getting towards fifty, at 0:12:19.156 --> 0:12:21.356 some point, you know, you realize, like some of this 0:12:21.516 --> 0:12:24.916 partying is self medication, etc. And the mental health is 0:12:24.956 --> 0:12:27.276 the other side of this coin. I think I've become 0:12:27.396 --> 0:12:30.916 way more interested in that. I think that's in that song. 0:12:31.996 --> 0:12:35.476 Maybe the Denariator is having a hard time just looking 0:12:35.516 --> 0:12:38.916 back on the before time and you know, saddened or 0:12:39.156 --> 0:12:42.476 unable to connect a happy memory too because of where 0:12:42.476 --> 0:12:45.156 it's got to. So tell me what your process for 0:12:45.156 --> 0:12:47.756 writing is now. Now you do many of your own 0:12:47.796 --> 0:12:50.436 albums where you do the music and the lyrics. Do 0:12:50.476 --> 0:12:53.956 you just do lyrics for the whole steady or do 0:12:53.956 --> 0:12:56.156 you work on the music as well. I would say 0:12:56.156 --> 0:12:58.676 it's an exception when I work on the music. There 0:12:58.716 --> 0:13:01.876 are times I've made suggestions, but that's generally the exception. 0:13:01.996 --> 0:13:06.156 Usually it's on Franz or Tad or Steve bringing something in. 0:13:06.436 --> 0:13:11.036 And usually these days we'll do a lot more true technology. 0:13:11.076 --> 0:13:13.836 You know, a lot of dropbox and someone will say, hey, 0:13:14.396 --> 0:13:17.436 I've got this thing, and it's usually two parts, let's say, 0:13:17.636 --> 0:13:21.476 and I'll start saying, well, I'll look through my used 0:13:21.516 --> 0:13:23.356 to be my notebook but now it's the notes app 0:13:23.396 --> 0:13:25.036 on my phone and see, like, you know, what have 0:13:25.116 --> 0:13:27.516 I got? I got little things and I'll get something together. 0:13:27.836 --> 0:13:29.796 But then we'll all get in a room and then 0:13:29.836 --> 0:13:33.916 that's usually when we start moving things around and maybe 0:13:33.916 --> 0:13:37.396 someone has an idea for a third part or you know, 0:13:37.476 --> 0:13:39.636 and we start arranging it. And so there it's kind 0:13:39.676 --> 0:13:42.196 of the two parts. It's the getting ready and then 0:13:42.236 --> 0:13:45.996 the togetherness on the last two records. You know, the 0:13:46.276 --> 0:13:49.876 the producer Josh Kaufman has showed up pretty early in 0:13:49.876 --> 0:13:52.956 the process and kind of been in been around for 0:13:52.956 --> 0:13:55.836 at least part of that second process, and pitched in 0:13:55.876 --> 0:13:58.836 some ideas about arrangement and you know, how we how 0:13:58.876 --> 0:14:01.476 we might approach things, which has been super helpful and cool. 0:14:01.996 --> 0:14:04.276 And then is it you go off in a room 0:14:04.316 --> 0:14:07.316 by yourself and figure out the lyrics or do the 0:14:08.556 --> 0:14:11.796 tracks they send you have some they tweaked something in 0:14:11.836 --> 0:14:16.116 your imagination? Yeah, I mean usually I have, you know, 0:14:16.236 --> 0:14:19.036 a bunch of stuff written down that that are just 0:14:19.116 --> 0:14:21.796 sort of notes and things I might think of how 0:14:22.756 --> 0:14:26.996 that might show up somewhere. Oftentimes it's, honestly, oftentimes it's 0:14:27.036 --> 0:14:29.556 getting the first line. Sometimes the first line is just 0:14:30.196 --> 0:14:33.756 enough to open up and go with it and see 0:14:33.796 --> 0:14:35.996 where it takes me. Can you give me an example 0:14:36.036 --> 0:14:38.716 from this album where the first line really dictated where 0:14:38.756 --> 0:14:43.236 you went? Yeah, I mean I think, um, that spicy song, 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:45.596 you know, She's she sent a picture of a plethora 0:14:45.596 --> 0:14:48.316 of poker chips spread out on a bed between a 0:14:48.396 --> 0:14:51.236 mouth and a leg. I thought, wow, like, what what 0:14:51.236 --> 0:14:53.516 what happens when you get that photo, you know, and 0:14:54.196 --> 0:14:57.476 the idea of poker chips was kind of funny in 0:14:57.556 --> 0:15:01.196 a hotel and I, you know, outside of a casino. 0:15:01.276 --> 0:15:02.876 I sort of felt like that was a that was 0:15:02.916 --> 0:15:05.396 a funny image and what would it what would it mean? 0:15:05.836 --> 0:15:08.716 Do you know how a story's going to end when 0:15:08.716 --> 0:15:12.236 you start the lyric? Not always I'd say fifty percent. 0:15:12.756 --> 0:15:16.876 And I'm a great tinkerer, like I I honestly sort 0:15:16.916 --> 0:15:19.916 of am always playing with things, and then when we 0:15:19.956 --> 0:15:22.236 record it, when we cut the song, I feel like 0:15:22.596 --> 0:15:25.076 it's done, like I can let go of it my mind. 0:15:25.156 --> 0:15:27.916 But up until then, I'm especially with the small words 0:15:27.956 --> 0:15:30.756 and the little you know again, the meter just kind 0:15:30.756 --> 0:15:34.396 of toying with things. I'll go and U like sort 0:15:34.436 --> 0:15:37.356 of hunt for the worst lines, like I'll look at 0:15:37.396 --> 0:15:39.156 you know, I'll write out the song or type out 0:15:39.156 --> 0:15:41.436 the song and then say like which is the worst line, 0:15:41.436 --> 0:15:43.276 and then which is you know, if I had to 0:15:43.276 --> 0:15:46.076 replace one, what would I do? And kind of keep 0:15:46.116 --> 0:15:48.396 at in that way, and that can change you know, 0:15:48.436 --> 0:15:51.636 the story a little bit. But there are times I'll 0:15:51.636 --> 0:15:53.636 start I have no idea where it's going, and then 0:15:53.636 --> 0:15:56.596 there are times where I know exactly how this ends. Right. 0:15:56.796 --> 0:15:58.876 There's some part of songwriting that reminds me of doing 0:15:58.876 --> 0:16:02.276 cross words. It's like sometimes you just that one line 0:16:02.316 --> 0:16:05.116 you get kind of is that big, big, long one 0:16:05.156 --> 0:16:08.636 across the middle, and everything sort of falls into place 0:16:08.676 --> 0:16:19.396 after you at that. She sent a picture of a 0:16:19.436 --> 0:16:23.116 plethora of poker chips spread on the bed between a 0:16:23.276 --> 0:16:27.156 mouth and a leg. She said, there's pretty many people already, 0:16:27.316 --> 0:16:32.956 but still I wish you were here. I hadn't really 0:16:33.036 --> 0:16:36.316 seen her since the previous winter. She'd been a drop 0:16:36.436 --> 0:16:40.316 dead number since later last December, but here she is 0:16:40.436 --> 0:16:45.356 rising again. Happy Easter. You want to go get some beers? 0:16:46.756 --> 0:16:50.556 How the part tenders were strangling their shakers. It was 0:16:50.636 --> 0:16:54.676 springtime in the sweet part of the city. It's nice 0:16:54.676 --> 0:16:58.596 to hit the taverns with familiar companions. I kind of 0:16:58.636 --> 0:17:10.836 like it when she's laughing at me. That's a bit 0:17:10.836 --> 0:17:14.276 of spices from the hold Steadies new album, Open Door Policy. 0:17:14.676 --> 0:17:21.156 We'll be right back after a quick break, We're back 0:17:21.156 --> 0:17:24.276 with more from Craigfinn and Bruce had Them. You're a 0:17:24.316 --> 0:17:27.236 literary writer in the sense that, hey, you write a lot, 0:17:27.756 --> 0:17:31.876 but you have these recurring characters that almost since the 0:17:31.916 --> 0:17:34.836 start of your career, I think even before the whole Steady, 0:17:35.836 --> 0:17:39.676 you had certain characters that would recur. They're not name necessarily, 0:17:39.716 --> 0:17:43.196 but did this character show up in this record as well? 0:17:43.836 --> 0:17:46.556 You know, I don't think so. I always feel like 0:17:46.596 --> 0:17:50.396 it's it's in my best interest to scare that. But no, 0:17:50.556 --> 0:17:53.036 I think this is a new I certainly think they're 0:17:53.076 --> 0:17:56.076 all living in the same universe, but I think this 0:17:56.156 --> 0:17:59.476 is a new set of people. I believe that I 0:17:59.516 --> 0:18:02.956 think things are interesting from about fifteen years ago. And 0:18:03.836 --> 0:18:05.796 so when I think when this band started and I 0:18:05.836 --> 0:18:07.756 was in my mid thirties, I was writing a lot 0:18:07.796 --> 0:18:10.836 about people who were twenty, you know, and uh, that's 0:18:10.836 --> 0:18:15.476 an age of great confidence and maybe maybe too much confidence, 0:18:15.516 --> 0:18:18.636 and people can wonderfully get into trouble due to sort 0:18:18.636 --> 0:18:21.996 of their cockiness. But as I get towards fifty, I 0:18:21.996 --> 0:18:24.316 think people in their mid thirties are more interesting to me. 0:18:24.356 --> 0:18:26.276 And I think a lot of the people on this 0:18:26.316 --> 0:18:29.156 record are those people. And you know, I guess I'm 0:18:29.196 --> 0:18:32.836 more interested in people who are stuck, you know, in 0:18:32.836 --> 0:18:36.116 some way, and they may be making bad decisions, but 0:18:36.196 --> 0:18:39.396 they're not so wild about it, and I think that 0:18:39.436 --> 0:18:43.276 there's there's something more interesting in those people now to me, 0:18:43.476 --> 0:18:45.556 you know, I used to really love writing about people 0:18:45.556 --> 0:18:48.436 who are partying a lot. Now I think I'm more 0:18:48.516 --> 0:18:51.476 interested in, like, uh, you know, the grandma who's giving 0:18:51.476 --> 0:18:54.116 that guy two hundred dollars every day, the sort of 0:18:54.116 --> 0:18:57.556 the codependency of it all, And that's that's fascinating to me. 0:18:57.596 --> 0:19:01.236 And I think that those kind of relationships interests me 0:19:01.316 --> 0:19:04.076 a lot these days because though that's that's the fuel 0:19:04.156 --> 0:19:07.596 that keeps that guy parting, but somehow that's that's deeper 0:19:07.796 --> 0:19:10.916 and weirder to me. You're associated with these kind of 0:19:10.996 --> 0:19:14.316 characters partying and up all night, and even though there's 0:19:14.316 --> 0:19:17.636 a lot of hangovers and people throwing up, there is 0:19:17.676 --> 0:19:20.396 something still there's a kind of shoddy glamor about it all. 0:19:20.556 --> 0:19:22.316 Do you still look back on that as kind of 0:19:22.356 --> 0:19:27.356 a glamorous, exciting time. Well, I think all these things 0:19:27.596 --> 0:19:30.996 cause elation. Right, you know, you can drink six glasses 0:19:30.996 --> 0:19:34.236 of champagne. It's gonna be pretty fun that night. It's 0:19:34.636 --> 0:19:37.436 it's not the next morning. But I don't think it's 0:19:37.476 --> 0:19:40.036 you know, it's it's hard to deny that there are 0:19:40.116 --> 0:19:42.796 good times that can come from that, but you know, 0:19:42.836 --> 0:19:46.236 if it's not repeated every night of your life, for 0:19:46.356 --> 0:19:49.436 every night for a long period. But yeah, I do 0:19:49.516 --> 0:19:53.396 think that there is fun and like I said, elation, 0:19:53.796 --> 0:19:56.276 I do believe it's sort of a duty to kind 0:19:56.276 --> 0:19:58.876 of write about the hangover too. It reminds me a 0:19:58.916 --> 0:20:01.596 bit and this is another Minnesota reference. It reminds me 0:20:01.596 --> 0:20:04.596 a bit of Fitzgerald. Yeah, I mean I think there's 0:20:05.236 --> 0:20:07.876 there's that. I mean, the waiste, sort of the garbage 0:20:07.916 --> 0:20:09.716 at the end of the night, sweeping up the cups 0:20:09.756 --> 0:20:12.516 as sort of a fet Fitzgerald thing, you know, like 0:20:12.596 --> 0:20:14.876 the bottles on the floor at the end of the show. 0:20:15.116 --> 0:20:17.516 There is something so distinct about that sound of when 0:20:17.556 --> 0:20:21.276 you're sweeping up those those red beer cups, makes it 0:20:21.396 --> 0:20:24.316 sound like nothing else. I used to when we first 0:20:24.316 --> 0:20:26.876 started touring, I used to always like to take a photo. 0:20:27.116 --> 0:20:29.236 I used to carry around, like you know, before they're 0:20:29.276 --> 0:20:31.356 all on our phones, a digital camera and I always 0:20:31.436 --> 0:20:33.756 used to like to take a photo of the mess 0:20:33.836 --> 0:20:35.916 at the end of the show after the crowd left. 0:20:37.156 --> 0:20:41.276 A song I found really fascinating and disturbing and I'm 0:20:41.276 --> 0:20:44.236 not sure why is prior procedure. Can you tell me 0:20:44.276 --> 0:20:47.116 a bit about that song? Yeah, prior procedure is actually 0:20:47.156 --> 0:20:49.996 the song that mentions the lyric open door policy, so 0:20:50.036 --> 0:20:52.596 it's I don't know a hinge on the whole thing. 0:20:53.036 --> 0:20:56.036 That song is sort of about someone who's or you know, 0:20:56.036 --> 0:20:58.636 a couple who's been displaced and are trying to find 0:20:58.636 --> 0:21:01.756 a place to stay and end up, you know, going 0:21:01.796 --> 0:21:05.756 to this kind of fictitious crash pad that's hosted by 0:21:05.756 --> 0:21:08.636 a really rich guy, a billionaire or something, and you know, 0:21:08.676 --> 0:21:11.316 it's the idea that he's being generous by letting all 0:21:11.316 --> 0:21:14.116 these people stay there, but he's also kind of controlling 0:21:14.116 --> 0:21:16.836 the strings, right, you know, he's still in charge, and 0:21:16.876 --> 0:21:20.516 it's very much a culture personality, and I think that 0:21:20.556 --> 0:21:23.036 there's sort of a modern kind of an allegory there. 0:21:23.116 --> 0:21:27.316 There's that seems like the relationship we have with, you know, 0:21:27.356 --> 0:21:30.196 some of the very wealthy people in this country. I mean, 0:21:30.236 --> 0:21:33.356 it's kind of a science fiction thing, but it seemed 0:21:33.396 --> 0:21:38.316 like something that could happen. It reminded me of the 0:21:38.436 --> 0:21:40.996 case of the He was a venture capitalist who co 0:21:41.116 --> 0:21:45.196 founded Zappos, the shoe company, and he died recently, but 0:21:45.356 --> 0:21:47.596 he just seemed to travel around to Vegas in these 0:21:47.636 --> 0:21:49.796 places and it was just always a party people were 0:21:49.836 --> 0:21:53.396 always around him spending his money. But this seemed to 0:21:53.396 --> 0:21:55.156