WEBVTT - Ethical Cobalt: Feel Good About Your Batteries 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:16.239 M hey everyone. So July two seven, Hawthorne, Nevada. It's 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.720 a tiny town in Mineral County in Nevada, bordering the Sierras, 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:21.840 kind of halfway down the state. I was a young 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.439 energy analyst on a solo road trip of the western US, 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.080 visiting different geothermal sites to get a field for that sector, 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.840 so operating power plants, plants under construction, drilling sites, and 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:35.400 on that particular day, a very early stage exploration. I 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:37.120 was sent out on this trip under the notion that 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.680 there's no substitute for experience. It reminds me of that 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.760 Bruce Springsteen song. Bobby Jean Rees says, we learned more 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:44.639 from a three minute record baby than we ever did 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.720 in school when it comes to understanding what's actually going on, 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:50.239 for getting a feel for something, it's so true. You've 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:51.639 got to be there, you have to do the thing. 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.600 So back in Hawthorne, six am at the El Capitan Casino. 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.120 Look it up. It's as glamorous as it sounds. I 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.000 met up with a freelance geologist, really nice guy, known 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.000 to take off into the desert on his own for 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:04.960 weeks at a time and come back to his client 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.640 with beautiful accurate hand drawn maps. From there, we drove 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.240 in his truck north and east deep into the U. 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.360 S Grade basin. After three or so hours on a 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:16.240 dirt road, we came to a sort of dingo fence. 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:17.760 Then we had to get out and open up, and 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:19.920 then we kept going more to crawl. Now, given the 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.240 rocks we had to cross over, we kept bouncing along 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.520 for another hour or so until we got to our destination, 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.600 the middle of absolute nowhere. He said, in all likelihood 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:30.240 we were the first people to visit this patch of 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.080 land in at least fifty years. There was a rusted 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:36.639 out nineteen twenties Ish trucks standing next to a fallen shack. 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:38.399 But all this was right next to a bunch of 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.919 hot springs. He was there to map them in relation 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.120 to fault lines in the surrounding area, to get an 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.679 initial sense of the reservoir down below. Very cool. About 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:48.640 two hours into our drive back to Hawthorne, he looks 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:50.040 over at me and he says, hey, you want to 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:54.560 see my claim? You mean, like old timey prospector claim. Um, yeah, 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.080 I do. So he turned to the next crossing on 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:58.760 the dirt road we were on, and we arrived at 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.880 a big pit. Whatever you find you can keep, he said, Well, 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.560 turns out it was a turquoise claim. So there I 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:06.640 was with a hammer and the Nevada son, banging on 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.080 rocks and finding more than a handful of really great 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.600 turquoise that I still have to this day. Turns out 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.520 that when he found this claim, he immediately quit his 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.000 job at a commercial copper mine in Utah and focused 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.560 on this full time. From mining the turquoise to making jewelry. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:20.320 He said he was doing okay at it for a while, 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:22.359 but then in the end couldn't compete with the commercial 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:24.560 minds and jewelers and had to let the business go. 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:27.160 Today on switched on. We're going to talk about how 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:29.400 natural resource discoveries can be a boon for those in 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:31.760 a position to benefit from them, but for others they 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.120 can up end lives with some pretty dire consequences. We'll 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:38.320 focus specifically on cobalt and a trip. BENF Medals analyst 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.400 Quasi Mpofo recently took to the Democratic Republic of the Congo. 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:44.320 He went to better understand the market and conditions in 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.280 a country that supplies seventy of the world's cobalt, a 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.160 key component in the batteries in our bones and increasingly 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:53.480 electric cars. The episode is based on a report titled 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.640 Solving the Blood Cobalt Challenge for EVS. Benof users can 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.280 access this report on BNF dot com, the BENF mobile app, 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.040 and the Bloomberg terminal. As a reminder, being If does 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:03.920 not provide investment of strategy advice, and you can hear 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:05.799 the full disclaimer at the end of the show. I'm 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.400 Mark Taylor here Withdanna Perkins and you're listening to switch 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.720 on to being a podcast Quazy, Thank you for joining 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:14.960 us here today. Thank you for having me. You recently 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.840 returned from a trip from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.280 which we will refer to as the DRC probably for 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.680 the rest of this podcast and really is going to 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.080 be the focus of our conversation today. While bienny F 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:28.880 analysts over the course of their career do often come 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:33.160 in contact with the research topics that they cover, you know, 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.040 there usually is a reason to go and it explore 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.560 a little deeper. What were you hoping to achieve on 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:40.160 this trip and maybe you could tell us a little 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.640 bit more about what these minds are actually like. Yeah, sure, 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.200 so festival to put it in a little bit. In context, 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:49.880 cobalt is one of the metals that goes into the 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:53.600 lathing my own batteries. It's a key component and the 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:58.920 DRC currently produces as of the global cobalt, so it's 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.720 a very key market for cobalts. And then as part 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:04.880 of our coverage, we wanted to understand what is it 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.080 that is happening on the ground. We wanted to visit 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:09.440 some minds to be able to put production that's apply 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.840 into perspective. And also importantly we wanted to have our 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.520 own independent view of how it iss No on mind 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.440 supply is on the ground, what was it like? Can 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.719 you describe? Well, first what is artisanal mining and what 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:23.440 kind of things did you see there? So it iss 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.240 not minding pretty much has to do with the tools 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.080 we used to mind, So it's just using normal pickasts, 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:30.960 like the kind of tools you use in the backyard 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.599 garden to mine. And also secondly, it has to do 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:35.640 with how much or how deep you can go. I 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.840 think in the Congo you can't go below fifteen meters 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.440 somewhere on that. So it's pretty much the tools and 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:43.560 the skill that's which you can mind. And it was 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.440 quite fascinating and interesting because before I went had read 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.440 a lot about you know, how unsafe it is for people. 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:51.560 And I must say it was fun, but at the 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:53.919 same time it was sometimes very confusing. I don't know 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.320 what Charles Dickens says. It was the best of times 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:58.040 at the same time it was the West of time. 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.839 So in some areas you go, people seem to be 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:03.160 following the laid down rules, the wing that right, using 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.600 the right tools, but then in other places not so 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.039 many people were doing it right and using the right tools. 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.559 And it was just having to be in both wells. 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.039 And what's quite interesting, other minds, other kinds of other 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.200 different commodities are done in a different way. They're not 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.479 used using these pick axes. It is it's something that 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.279 is specific to cobalt that requires this type of mining, 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.240 or is it something that's specific to the country. So 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.040 I mean it's a it's just not mining. It's a 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.560 global challenge. You're looking at globally about forty million or 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.080 more people involved in it all around the world, And yeah, 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.719 it's pretty huge, and it's specifically. We used to find 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.799 this happening in the precious method or precious minerals area. 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:45.000 And by that I mean gold. You're talking about the diamonds, 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.800 things that have really high value and it's very easy 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.839 and less downting to process. But historically what we've seen 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.320 with the cobal sector is that so the value of 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.080 cobal is shut up two hundred thousand dollar pet on 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.440 last year, up from about twenty thousand five years ago. 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:03.679 So all of a sudden, you have just this piece 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.000 of sun in your backyard which is worth hundred thousand 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:10.120 that's probably your whole lifetime. And so people just started 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.400 digging their back yards and decide that. I went to 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.080 the history of it is in this young man was 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:18.479 digging his sea wage at his back yard and he 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.880 hits what he would later learn his cobalt. So all 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:25.479 of the sudden, his neighbors that digging their bedrooms, their bathrooms, 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.400 their poaches and everywhere. Everyone was just digging. And to 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.120 put it in perspective, this was in the middle of 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.599 the city where the local market was. So the government 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:37.600 had to step in and that is when they had 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:39.120 to do something. How did you figure out it was 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.520 good question. So these are people that have lived in 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.960 they've lived in cobalt all their lives, I mean expected 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:47.800 to be blue. But I was told in a previous 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.520 episode by Sophie Lou that a couple of mine is 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.920 not blue. No, it's not blue. So it's black mixed 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:55.599 with up. So it's just the nature of the rock. 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.440 As a trained geologist, I'm able to tell. We're training 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.600 it should be able to tell what it looks like 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:02.960 from other monros in the soil. There there are a 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.440 large number of people who have actually become millionaires off 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.160 of this or is it really people are digging this 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.400 stuff up, but somewhere centrally there's a company that's really 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.160 profiting off of this. So it's an interesting value chain. 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.000 So basically you have the people who do the dig in, 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:20.120 so they are at the lower end of the value chain. 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:23.520 So from what I'm told to get about, in good 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.480 times when prices are high, they get about fifty to 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.160 thirty dollars per day for their efforts and their work. 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:32.560 And as you go higher, you get closer to the 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.240 hundred thousand dollar bounty I talked about. So you find 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.800 that they gets getting the least, and then that gets 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.480 transported to the next level of um workers, who are 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.040 mostly the washers, and that's where you find most women 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.840 getting involved and in the DFC. According to estimates, we 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:51.600 recorded forty percent of people in that art is now 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.960 mining sector women. So they they do the washing in 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.920 other ways, trying to increase the concentrates of the cobalts 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.360 in the matter reals that they have, and that moves 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.120 out to the value chain to what we call the bias. 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:06.360 So these are biased that come all over the world, 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.920 particularly from China from India who buy these and they 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.040 send it off to the smeltes who do the further processing. 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.720 And from these smeltes eight percent of the cobalt that 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.520 is producing congo and get shipped to China and it's 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.400 refined into chemicals that we use for batteries. So when 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:26.040 I read your note, I thought China, okay, so that 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.360 means the batteries that I used probably in in my phone. 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.920 But then I thought, oh no, not my phone. I'm 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:32.959 sure my phone is fine, but that's that's wrong, right, 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:35.600 The stuff is in my phone is very wrong. It's 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.640 very hard to trace the value chain. Where does they 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.760 get marquis So mostly what we noticed it was at 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.400 the smelter on the refinery level, because they buy and 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:46.880 it mix it in this hot cooking pots where it 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.480 comes from every source. So you have those who are 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.480 doing it right sending it to the same smelter as 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:54.800 those who are mining with children sending it to the 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.120 same smelter. So that melting pot is where we found 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:03.040 the hardest child. Is there a pricing difference between ethical 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.000 and not ethical cobalt? For now? Not on the market. 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.560 The London Metals Exchange le MY sets the price for cobalt, 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.040 and that is what pretty much everyone around the world uses, 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:16.000 So why wouldn't everyone buy ethical cobalt? So, like I 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.920 mentioned earlier, the d r C produces seventy of the 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.240 current cobalt market. The problem there is that it's a 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.920 country where it's hard to trace the origin of the 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:29.880 cobalts you buy. You don't know. There had been conversations 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.400 about relying on other markets like Australia, like Canada, like Cuba. 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.280 But what we found in our research is that if 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.559 all automakers were to rely on cobord that comes out 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.400 of the d r C, by one, there will not 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.120 be enough cobalt for our batteries and that might threatend 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.920 the whole Evie revolution. So one way or the other 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:51.760 you have to deal with the d r C if 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.320 we want to get sustainable supply of cobalt. But the 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.199 challenger is that you just don't know where your cobalt 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.120 is coming from. So literally, in a year from now, 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.559 if we decided, okay, we're just not going to buy 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.520 anything from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, we wouldn't 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:09.800 have lithium my own batteries, and lithium my own batteries 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:15.280 are used in well, my phone, your phone, cars, stationary 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.280 storage for utilities, so pretty widespread and we've got some 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.800 pretty aggressive forecasts for there to be more of them. 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:25.280 Can you actually, So there's there's this term ethical cobalt 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.760 which exists and it has a pretty strict definition of 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:32.520 what is ethical. Can you explain that? So ethical cobalt 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.520 is cobalts that first of all, is free from child labor, 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.920 very important. Secondly, you don't have issues of corruptions around 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.480 in it, and in the d C on Congo in 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.679 particular their incidents where minerals sold where used to fund 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.560 wars and other conflicts within the region, so there's no 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:55.120 incident of corruption and human rights is respected. Also in 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.040 the d r C, d A incidents where people like 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.320 in regions where they are not assured than guarantee of 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:04.920 a good safety wakened environment. So basically, ethical cobortists about 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.760 three tens eliminate children out of those, MINCE guarantee human 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:12.280 rights safety, and thirdly, it should be free from corruption. 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.240 So further down the line, there are companies that are 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.400 very aware of this and trying to source ethical cobalt, 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.360 even if it's very challenging to do. What are some 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.640 of the companies that are sort of leading the way 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:29.800 and trying to improve this particular issue. So in this area, 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.080 the Kunsumer electronic industry actually had a head stats, so 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.800 you think and been like Apple. Apple is one of 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.720 the companies that initiated very strong supply chain principles to 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.600 ensure that the acborts is eartically sourced. So I would 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.280 say the EV sector is playing a catch up to that, 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:50.480 and we've had BMW, for example, showing really strong leadership 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.719 by engaging with companies in the DRC and with that 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.280 Sisenal Mince and the DFC. Currently they've entered a three 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.800 year partnership with the German government to pilot how best 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.880 they can ensure transparency in the chain. We've also have 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:07.480 incidents where Voxwagon VW also working with blockchain technologies to 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.920 ensure that the cobalt the source is traceable and they 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.000 know where it's coming from. There's also the incident like 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.760 companies like why You that are actively engaging with companies 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.320 on the ground to ensure that they're able to verify 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.440 wherever the source their cobalt. So there are companies around 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.160 doing quite great stuff in the process, but as I 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.840 said earlier, it is a very very challenging issue, especially 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.680 where it gets missed in the hot pot. In other ways, 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:37.000 the smelter does the regulatory oversight for other minerals, would 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.200 it work for cobalt as well the same frameworks that 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.680 are used for other minerals. It should. So in terms 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.160 of framework particularly what is this that before the whole 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.040 cobalt type was what we call the dot frank, which 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.960 is a United States Act, and part of that was 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.880 to ensure that confluce minerals produced in the origion of 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.440 the d r C do not end up in the 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.760 global supply chain to fund conflict in the DRC. And 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.640 with these ones it will focus on gold it's in 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.680 and other metals, So yes, it that's weak. But then 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.320 the limitation of the dot Frank is the fact that 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.000 it already focused on finance and conflicts, and this is 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.240 a different issue. And then dot frank what the framework 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.280 did was you just have to do a due diligence 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.080 on your upstream and just put it in the United 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.599 States SEG document that you've done it due diligence and 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.679 to the best of your knowledge, ABC requirements has been satisfied. 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.160 But when you're talking about these ethical stuff I mentioned, 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.760 you need to take it a step further when it 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.760 comes to trying to improve that. You can do diligence, 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.599 but only the information has to be good enough to 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.199 do diligence on. You mentioned in this note that maybe 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:44.880 blockchain could be part of the solution. What are some 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.760 of the ways to improve the transparency for those that 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:52.440 do care a lot about improving this for the miners, 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.200 So first of all, you have to go to the 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.480 DFC and work with the producers. It's very important because 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.640 I say, you're developing a blockchain technology in the corner 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.439 streets in London and hoping that people in the d 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.280 r C or elsewhere mining cobal to do the writing. 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.960 By feeding you with the right information can be a 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:14.720 disaster at the end of the day. And like basic 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.599 computer knowledge, we are no garbage in garbage out. You 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.720 don't put in the right data, you wouldn't get the 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.800 right output. So one of the companies I got to 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.720 engage with when I was in La Laba, which is 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.840 where most of the cob artists produced, had actually got 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.360 a third party to monitor four seven some of these 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.960 mind sides and the monitor or the monitoring officer had 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:40.120 a mobile phone connected to the internet. He is on 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.080 the app. They've developed a special app for him and 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:47.880 he's able to report everything or any inconsistency that he 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.600 witnesses according to a framework he's been given. So as 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.320 soon as he imputed that data, there's a whole group 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.440 and I think France or somewhere in Europe picks it up, 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.520 action it. They send it back to the an Honor 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.920 and tell them that hey, these are the issues we flagged. 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.120 You have twenty eight days to do it right or 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.880 else we will take you off the supply chain. So 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:14.320 there are some quite interesting innovative things being done in 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.960 the DRC that I witnessed that I believe, if it 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:22.520 should be skilled, it can really really help make ethical 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:26.400 sourcing of cobalt reality. So back to your question of blockchain, Yes, 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.880 it would play a role, and like every blockchain technology, 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.720 it would help democratize the way information is shed. But 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:35.640 then the end game is that it has to be 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.120 in conjunction with what is happening undergone for us to 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:43.200 have a full value out of it. Okay, can we start? 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:44.800 Can we try to do something like a like a 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.840 beginner's guide If I'm a strategist, say at a utility 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.520 who wants to install a bunch of batteries that you 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.440 need cobalt, It's all a bunch of batteries. Look at 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.840 my batteries, thank you. Where do I even get started 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.160 to find? Ethically? So, so currently there are companies that 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.600 are conducting or they will conduct your monitoring and evaluation 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.040 for you in the DRC on the ground. So an 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.520 example of the company's be interacted it was OURCS Global. 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.400 So they have this system where they send a monitoring 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.640 officer on site who monitors a side for you twenty 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.320 four seven. And then what they do is that they 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.960 have a framework within which every mind that the monitor 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.400 is supposed to comply. So what the framework is? Do 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.760 you have children and there are you working safely, So 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.000 about twenty one or more questions that has to be 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:40.400 answered every day by this monitoring officer. So whenever this 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:44.480 monitoring officers witnesses what we call red flags, he has 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:46.720 too quickly in real time put it in the system. 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.840 So there are two layers of review. So I think 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:54.520 there's the first local review that reviews the red flag, say, 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:58.400 for example, someone showed up to work drunk, so that 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.000 is escalator too. Maybe there's a European team that also 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.920 looks at it in the second review. And then I'd 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.439 say after a week, the compiler report to the minor 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.359 and go like these are the red flags before observed. 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.919 On your side, these are the remedies. We recommend. You 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:18.320 have twenty one days to work on it or else 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.800 until your supplies. So you the utility company and they 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.680 will tell you that, look, mine is not reliable, Please 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.840 don't buy it from mine anymore. Does this monitoring officer 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.359 work for you, and it is essentially going down the 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.000 list of things that you've defined are important or did 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.600 they come with their own framework that you essentially are 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.479 just collecting information on and have multiple clients that are 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.040 all collecting that information. I think they're probably working with 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.439 the standardized framework. And because they have been in the 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.000 industry for quite a world. Our CS has been doing 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.159 this for fairly long time. They know the kind of 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:55.119 red flags that wouldn't matter for most utility companies or 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:59.600 electric vehicle companies. They have the high level framework. Like 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.280 like said, we don't want human rights ap uses. Those 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:04.840 are high level questions. We don't want children. There's are 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.639 high level questions. But I think what these third party 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.720 companies that have been in the game for a while 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:14.960 understand how to break down these questions into actionable items 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.240 or frameworks that the Monday turn office I can understand. 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:20.240 But then certainly I'm pretty sure there's a way where 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.159 they can amend it or be flexible whether to ensure 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.240 that the capture your specific needs. Are there a lot 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:30.560 of these businesses, so I think it's an imagined area. 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.520 I know in terms of blockchain, I know the tracker 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.320 by Anglo America that that's something similar. But then from 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.240 the online perspective, I know this mind Spider base out 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.960 of Germany that is working with Vido w and other companies. 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.680 It's a pretty cool name mind Spider. They just spread 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.879 out the web every mind he's saying the note that 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.760 a lot of cobalt comes from as a byproduct of 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.280 copper production. Right, that makes me wonder, like, why why 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.400 does Chile I not have a bunch of cobalt. That's 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.520 about the moment. About fifty six percent of global production 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.240 come from copper minds and the remaining come from nickel 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.199 mind And I must add only one mind in the 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:12.639 world commonly produced cobalts as a primary product, and that 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.200 is in Morocco. So back to your question of why 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.920 Chile doesn't have so, it's just it's probably a gift 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.280 of Nata. We have this deposit called the copper belt. 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.560 And if I'm about to go a little bit geology's 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.879 hydrothermal deposits that comes with heaps of so it's just 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:33.280 the way historic geological processes came about. So the nature 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.440 of the copper deposits in what we call the Copal 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.240 copper belts, which stretches from Zambia through the d r 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.800 C and into a little bit of Uganda, is that 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:47.280 it comes with these high pressure commodities like cobalts in 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.880 this instance. Yeah, but historically there has been a cobalt 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.200 mine in Chile. Yeah, I think about a hundred fifty 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:58.080 years ago, so quite recently they have gone back to 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.359 these mines. I think there's a company that is currently 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:06.120 looking into reviving this particular cobalt mine, and it could 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:09.359 be what we call the resource case that we probably 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.680 have one commodity which is big, you tend to forget 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.160 or not even think about the fact that you could 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.200 have other stuff around the corner. So I think Chile 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.320 is coming to the realization. You'd expect Indonesia as well, 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.000 maybe with the nickel mining, So Indonesia is also another 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:28.720 future market. We expect about four to five thousand metric 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:32.640 tones of production to come from Indonesia from by productive 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.960 the nickel mince over the next five to six years, 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.639 so it would not necessarily be a market leader, but 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.879 then I think within the coal market, five thousand metric 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:48.320