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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going really well. Now there's something I've got to

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Speaker 1: ask you about.

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Speaker 2: Uh oh, it's your aquarium, my aquarium.

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Speaker 1: This sound that comes out of your aquarium, which I hear,

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Speaker 1: can cause sound issues sometimes, So I'm curious about what

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Speaker 1: is up with your aquarium. I've never known someone with

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Speaker 1: a saltwater aquarium.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, technically it's still a very young aquarium.

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Speaker 2: It's about eight months old. So saltwater aquariums are not

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Speaker 2: like goldfish tanks. This is truly sort of replicating the

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Speaker 2: ocean inside a window box. And it has a whole

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Speaker 2: life support system, so that is really what is the

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Speaker 2: issue when it comes to the sound, is there's pumps going,

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Speaker 2: there's supportive equipment that make noises. And when I record,

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Speaker 2: since it's in the space that we do the podcast

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Speaker 2: from out here in my man cave, I have to

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Speaker 2: literally shut down the life support to this aquarium in

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Speaker 2: order to try to get my room as quiet as

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Speaker 2: possible so the people who are listening aren't hearing the

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Speaker 2: rumblings and the gurglings and everything else that's going on.

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Speaker 1: Is that risking the lives of your aquatic animals though,

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Speaker 1: But we have to shut down the whole system.

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Speaker 2: It is in a way now, I will tell you

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Speaker 2: we recorded two episodes the other day and that's the

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Speaker 2: longest that I had shut my tank down. And when

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Speaker 2: I looked I don't know if you remember, but in

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Speaker 2: between recordings, I was like, Hey, I got to go

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Speaker 2: check on my fish, and I have a flashlight because

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Speaker 2: I you know, basically I'm sitting here in the dark

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Speaker 2: right now. So I take the flashlight and two of

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Speaker 2: my fish were laying on the sand bottom and I

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Speaker 2: was just like oh no, that fast, you know, that

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Speaker 2: was my uh oh, and it was I have a

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Speaker 2: royal Grammar, which is a beautiful purple and yellow fish,

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Speaker 2: and then I had just put in a relatively young

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Speaker 2: six line rass and both were literally just laying on

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Speaker 2: the bottom of the sand, which is what you typically

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Speaker 2: see when fish die. Oh no, So I was really concerned.

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Speaker 1: And then I you see aside it and well.

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Speaker 2: That I flipped on my lights to the tank and

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Speaker 2: they both just got up off the sand and started

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Speaker 2: swimming away, and I was like, okay, they were fooling me.

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Speaker 1: You and I talk a lot about reducing anxiety, since

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Speaker 1: that's what your book was about, was the amount of

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Speaker 1: anxiety that you've gotten in life. And so we've worked

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Speaker 1: you towards the kava right drinking the car and that's

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Speaker 1: very calming and nothing wrong with bourbon, but just you know,

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Speaker 1: working on some other things. So I assume that the

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Speaker 1: salt water aquarium is one of the ways that you

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Speaker 1: tried to reduce anxiety. I need like three of those,

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Speaker 1: so maybe you can sit need a lot of salt

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Speaker 1: water animals to reduce my anxiety.

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Speaker 2: It's not a cheap hobby, but yes, I will sit

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Speaker 2: there and just watch my tank. I've even sat in

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Speaker 2: front of it sipping bourbon, watching my tank. I love

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Speaker 2: these creatures. They all have their own little personalities, the

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Speaker 2: way they interact with each other, the engineering some of

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Speaker 2: these animals do. Like your coral reefs, right, don't you

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Speaker 2: have coral? I have a few pieces of coral, but

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Speaker 2: the tank's not quite ready to really put a lot

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Speaker 2: of coral in there. But I have creatures, both fish

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Speaker 2: and this invertebrate, this pistol shrimp that build structures. They

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Speaker 2: will take shells and build homes and it's amazing, awesome. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and now the one thing that I cannot control about

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Speaker 2: noise out of this tank is the pistol shrimp. Can

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Speaker 2: you imagine why it's called a pistol shrimp?

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Speaker 1: What does it sound like?

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Speaker 2: It has a super large claw that it can close

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Speaker 2: so fast it causes the water to cavitate, and it

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Speaker 2: creates this loud crack. It's a defense mechanism. It can

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Speaker 2: literally stun other fish or invertebrates with this claw. And

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Speaker 2: every now and then you'll hear this loud pop and

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Speaker 2: it's just because it's feeling threatened and I can't control it.

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Speaker 2: So listeners may hear a pop from here. You know,

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Speaker 2: this pistol shrimp's trying to just get by during its day.

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Speaker 1: It's good to know, well, and everybody should be able

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Speaker 1: to get by during their day. So I'm gonna forgive

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Speaker 1: the pistol shrimp for interrupting us. So this has been

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Speaker 1: a fantastic episode of fish Talk with pole Holes.

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Speaker 2: There we go here. This is our spinoff podcast, right.

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Speaker 1: Love it.

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Speaker 2: It's gonna be a hit.

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Speaker 1: Gonna be a hit. But let's get serious because I

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Speaker 1: have a really interesting case that still confounds me today.

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Speaker 1: It's a little bit of a who done it? But

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Speaker 1: it's also how do they figure out who this person is?

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Speaker 1: So let's go ahead and jump in, and let's set

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Speaker 1: the scene.

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Speaker 2: So this is.

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Speaker 1: Fresno, California. We have a lot of California stories just

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Speaker 1: for right now. I love this area and it's really

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Speaker 1: where I concentrated a lot of research on American Sherlock,

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Speaker 1: which is why I gravitate towards California, and you gravitated

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Speaker 1: obviously towards California too. So this is Fresno. Do you

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Speaker 1: know anything about Fresno?

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Speaker 2: I have been down to Free know, I've driven through it.

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Speaker 2: It's about the middle of California. If you're driving from

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Speaker 2: north to south, it's in the middle of Central Valley.

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Speaker 2: Central Valley, California a huge farming area in terms of

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Speaker 2: its production of fruits and nuts. It leads the world,

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Speaker 2: I believe, in terms of how much produce it is

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Speaker 2: able to produce. But also Central Valley, California is so

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Speaker 2: blasted hot in the summertime. Where I lived in California

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Speaker 2: was technically sort of Central Valley, this town called Vagabille,

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Speaker 2: and it was routinely getting to one hundred and ten

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Speaker 2: to one hundred and fifteen in the summertime. And I

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Speaker 2: was just like, Nope, I'm not subjecting myself to that anymore.

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Speaker 2: And that was one of the factors in moving out

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Speaker 2: of California.

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Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, that sounds Texas hot. It's we are hot, hot,

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Speaker 1: hot here, and it's a humid hot. People make fun

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Speaker 1: of us for that all the time. It'sid.

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Speaker 2: Humid hot is the worst.

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Speaker 1: But this is a family that we're centered on, the Stammers,

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Speaker 1: and they are upper middle class. If we're going to

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Speaker 1: frame how this family is, the father, Walter Stammer, is

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Speaker 1: a corporate attorney and he's got four children, three daughters,

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Speaker 1: one son, two very young children, and then a fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old girl and then a girl a couple of

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Speaker 1: years younger. Living a nice life in Fresno, tree lined street,

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Speaker 1: long driveway, really safe area, and this family that seems

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Speaker 1: to be very loving and supportive, and he sporadically travels

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Speaker 1: kind of goes back and forth. He has to hop

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Speaker 1: on the train. This is November of nineteen thirty five,

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Speaker 1: and he hops on the train to go see clients.

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Speaker 1: And they's such a tight knit family that often they'll

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Speaker 1: just drive with him to the train station. It's fifteen

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Speaker 1: or twenty minutes away, and they'lldrop them off and come back.

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Speaker 1: So that is what happens on this particular night. So

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Speaker 1: in November of nineteen thirty five, it's foggy, it's dark,

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Speaker 1: late at night, and the two little kids are sleeping.

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Speaker 1: So there is a six year old little and a

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Speaker 1: two year old boy who are sleeping upstairs. And then

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old Mary Louise Stammer, who is the center

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Speaker 1: of the story. So she's fourteen, she's very studious, she's

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Speaker 1: a sophomore in the local high school. She wants to

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Speaker 1: be a lawyer like her dad, and she likes to

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Speaker 1: read a lot. So she is in their music room,

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Speaker 1: so wealthy enough to have a music room. She plays

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Speaker 1: instruments and she's sitting in her dad's chair and she's

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Speaker 1: reading through a trial transcript, which at fourteen is kind

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Speaker 1: of amazing. She's reading all of this legal ease and

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Speaker 1: really taking it in. So smart young woman. This is

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you right now, are victim no

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Speaker 1: known enemies? So fourteen year old girl seemingly not at

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Speaker 1: high risk lifestyle. This is someone who is going to

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Speaker 1: die shortly. This would be a surprising victim to have,

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, depending on the circumstances.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So Walter and Dorothy Stammer decide that they are

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Speaker 1: going to go to the train station with their youngest

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Speaker 1: daughter under Mary Louise. So there's Dorothy Stammer, the younger daughter,

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Speaker 1: and they want to go with Walter Stammer because he

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Speaker 1: is this attorney and he's going onto a train to

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Speaker 1: go see a client. So this is kind of a

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Speaker 1: last minute thing. So the three of them leave, leaving

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Speaker 1: Mary Louise Stammer alone, the fourteen year old for the

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Speaker 1: first time ever, she had never been alone in the

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Speaker 1: house before. At night, she's in charge of her younger

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Speaker 1: sister and her younger brother, who are six and two.

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Speaker 1: They're asleep upstairs. Her mother says, lock the door behind us,

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Speaker 1: which they never did. Okay, I grew up in the

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Speaker 1: eighties and nineties in a farmhouse and we never locked

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Speaker 1: the doors ever.

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Speaker 2: Ever.

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Speaker 1: Ever, So the mom was concerned enough for Mary Louise

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Speaker 1: that she wanted to make sure that she locked the door.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what time the parents are leaving the

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Speaker 2: house that evening?

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Speaker 1: It is dark enough, it is six o'clock, seven o'clock,

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Speaker 1: so it's dark and like I said, foggy, so limited visibility.

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Speaker 1: And this was a last minute thing. So the younger

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Speaker 1: do decides to go, leaving Mary Louise at home, and

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Speaker 1: the parents leave. They get into the car. So Mary

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Speaker 1: Louise is sitting in her dad's chair. She's reading through

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Speaker 1: one of his trial transcripts, just sort of flipping through it.

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Speaker 1: Who knows how much she understood, but she was a

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Speaker 1: very smart young lady. And there's somebody watching. We don't

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Speaker 1: know who this person is. He is watching the car leave,

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Speaker 1: and he sneaks up to the window and after they

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Speaker 1: pull away. He waits and mister Stammer forgot something, so

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Speaker 1: he comes back in the car. They hop out. He

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Speaker 1: grabs something from his briefcase and goes back and gets

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Speaker 1: back in. So the man stands and waits. He's hiding.

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Speaker 1: Then he sneaks up. When he feels like they are gone,

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Speaker 1: he sneaks up to the window and he pulls out

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Speaker 1: a gun. So he crouches and he watches the girl

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Speaker 1: for about five minutes of fourteen year old And this

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Speaker 1: is the third time that he's done this three nights.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so he's been there. He's watching this fourteen year

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Speaker 2: old girl right now. The house is vacated of adults

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Speaker 2: and she is alone with two younger siblings upstairs.

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Speaker 1: Yep. So he's watching long enough, right to know what

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Speaker 1: the routine is. And he's looking for an opportunity, is

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Speaker 1: that right?

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Speaker 2: Yes, And he may not have expected an opportunity this

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Speaker 2: night because you said this was the last second planned

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Speaker 2: trip by the parents. So now he's presented with an opportunity.

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Speaker 2: And this is where the offenders have to determine whether

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Speaker 2: or not they're going to seize that opportunity.

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Speaker 1: And it's risky because the parents have already come back.

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Speaker 1: Once they left for a few minutes, he forgot something,

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Speaker 1: they came back. So already, when I'm hoping you're going

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Speaker 1: to do is start building a little profile in your

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Speaker 1: head of this person, because he becomes more interesting the

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Speaker 1: things that he thinks about doing. Okay, so he has

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Speaker 1: been watching her. This is the third time we've talked

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Speaker 1: about that. And he's crouching by the window and he

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Speaker 1: pulls out a gun. And we do a lot of

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Speaker 1: research for this show, and there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: different resources that we pull from, and I found contradictory

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Speaker 1: data about the gun that he used. He definitely used

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Speaker 1: a gun. I hear it being called a twenty two rifle.

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Speaker 1: I also hear it called a twenty two pistol. So

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Speaker 1: what should we do because I can't say for certain

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Speaker 1: what kind of gun this is.

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Speaker 2: Well, the common descriptor is twenty two caliber, and both

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Speaker 2: pistol and rifle designated. Well, one's a handgun. One is

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Speaker 2: something that is designed to be shot from the shoulder

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Speaker 2: and typically will have a longer body to a dand

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Speaker 2: or longer barrel. But I think, not knowing the particulars,

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Speaker 2: we might just be better off calling it a twenty

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Speaker 2: two caliber gun.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we'll say that. So he takes this twenty

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Speaker 1: two caliber gun and he points at her head, and

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Speaker 1: he is not far from her at all. He's kind

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Speaker 1: of behind her, probably five to ten feet, and he

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Speaker 1: points it through the window which is closed, and he

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Speaker 1: fires it and he hits her at the base of

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Speaker 1: her brain.

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Speaker 2: Oh, so he's standing outside and shoots.

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Speaker 1: Her, yep, through the window, window brakes, and it hits

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Speaker 1: her one shot. The autopsy said, right at the base

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Speaker 1: of the brain, and doctors were pretty confident that this

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Speaker 1: would have killed her immediately.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm surprised a little bit about this twenty two

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Speaker 2: penetrating through the window and then still being on target

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Speaker 2: to strike the victim. These windows back in the day,

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Speaker 2: probably single pain windows versus the double pain windows. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: fairly thin glass ten feet away, still having enough energy

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Speaker 2: to actually penetrate into the skull. Quite frankly, with that information,

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Speaker 2: and this is more educated speculation, that would cause me

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Speaker 2: to start thinking he had more of a rifle. Generally

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Speaker 2: rifles will have greater accuracy across greater distances and more

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Speaker 2: power behind the bullet. But can't say that for sure.

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Speaker 2: But Okay, so she struck, you said, in the back

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Speaker 2: of the head.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, hitting her in the head at the base of

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Speaker 1: her brain is what the coroner said. Oh wow, and

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Speaker 1: they assumed killing her instantly she slumped over just like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And most certainly that is entirely possible, even with

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Speaker 2: a small twenty two. It's funny because people when they

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Speaker 2: envision somebody being shot, the general person is relying on

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Speaker 2: what they see on TV or in the movies, and

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Speaker 2: oftentimes when somebody gets shot on TV and in movies,

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Speaker 2: they drop instantly. Well, in real life, that typically is

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Speaker 2: not what happens unless something very vital, such as, you know,

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Speaker 2: part of the brain that is involved in locomotion and consciousness,

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Speaker 2: or part of your spinal cord. When these structures are hit,

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Speaker 2: then yes you lose locomotion, but doesn't mean that you

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Speaker 2: die instantly. You still can survive. And I've even had

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Speaker 2: cases where somebody is shot in the head, shot in

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Speaker 2: the brain, and they survive. They're still able to move

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Speaker 2: after being shot. And it really comes down to well,

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Speaker 2: what is hit? What part of the brain is hit?

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Speaker 2: And I like to use when I talk to like

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Speaker 2: citizens academies, and I start talking about this issue is

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Speaker 2: if you've taken any like high school or college psychology courses,

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Speaker 2: you've probably been introduced to Phineas Cage, the railroad worker

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Speaker 2: who had a iron rod from an explosion go up

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Speaker 2: underneath his chin out the top of his head. He

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Speaker 2: remained conscious. The doctor is able to put a finger

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Speaker 2: in the entry wound and a finger in the exit

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Speaker 2: wound and touch his fingers inside this guy's head, and

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Speaker 2: it was like it didn't hit those vital structures that

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Speaker 2: either would have killed him or caused him to lose

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Speaker 2: consciousness or motor function. And so this is where in

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Speaker 2: assessing a crime scene, I have to assess the possibility

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Speaker 2: that the victim has potentially maintained consciousness and or motor

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Speaker 2: function after being shot. And in this case, so the

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Speaker 2: shooter is saying that Mary Louise just immediately slumped.

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Speaker 1: That's what he said. But we'll find out in a

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Speaker 1: little bit that this is not the most trustworthy person

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Speaker 1: obviously when he gives us some more details about what happened.

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Speaker 1: So he has shot her, and this is what he

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Speaker 1: says he did, which I know you don't. You're not

300
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Speaker 1: totally on board with organized versus disorganized in that category,

301
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Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that in a little bit. Like

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Speaker 1: the person who plans meticulously, this seems like somebody who

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Speaker 1: didn't know what he was doing and then definitely knew

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Speaker 1: what he was doing at the same time. He says

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Speaker 1: that he held his hand over the breach of the

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Speaker 1: gun to catch the shell. Is the breach the little

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Speaker 1: whole thing. I'm sorry for being ignorant about guns, but

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Speaker 1: is that the thing that you put the cartridges in?

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Speaker 1: Is that what it breaches?

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Speaker 2: Well, what this is telling me is that whether this

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Speaker 2: is a pistol or a rifle, that it's a semi

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Speaker 2: automatic gun or bolt action type gun. If it's a

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Speaker 2: semi auto, the gun utilizes the recoil of the round

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Speaker 2: in order to push a slide back, extract and eject

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Speaker 2: the empty cartridge case and then rechamber another round. You

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Speaker 2: can also have a bolt action where you manually he

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Speaker 2: checked that cartridge case and catch it. So he is

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Speaker 2: policing his brass in a way. Typically you're not catching

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Speaker 2: it as you're doing it. I'm thinking it's bold action.

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Speaker 2: He must have manually done it and grabbed this empty

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Speaker 2: cartridge case versus a semi auto, which would immediately be

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Speaker 2: ejecting the cartridge case out. Okay, I think there'd be

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Speaker 2: no way that he'd be able to fire at Mary

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Speaker 2: Louise kill her and he'd catch the cartridge case at

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Speaker 2: the same time of committing that homicide. But it's telling

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Speaker 2: me that he's concerned about that cartridge case as possibly

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Speaker 2: being evidence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just to summarize, we have someone who has

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Speaker 1: been to this house and stalked the people in this

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Speaker 1: house three times. He waited for an opportunity. He knows

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Speaker 1: how to use a gun, he seems to know how

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Speaker 1: it operates, and he is starting to show some knowledge

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Speaker 1: of forensics. So he takes this cartridge and he bites it, okay,

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Speaker 1: which doesn't sound great for your teeth, But he's obviously

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Speaker 1: doing it because he must enough about ballistics to know

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Speaker 1: that something on that cartridge could be traced back to him.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that's the case?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I couldn't imagine putting an expended cartridge case

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Speaker 2: in my mouth and starting to chew on it. You know,

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Speaker 2: even though this is not a real hard metal, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's still metal. He's having to apply a lot of

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Speaker 2: force with his jaws in order to change the shape

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Speaker 2: of this cartridge case. Now, it does seem like he

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Speaker 2: is trying to obliterate the marks that this gun would

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00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 2: have left on the cartridge case that could have been

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Speaker 2: used to tie that evidence back to the gun that

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Speaker 2: he possesses. I believe that is what his intent would be. However,

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Speaker 2: it's possible that those marks under a microscope that came

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Speaker 2: from the firearm would survive this chewing process. Really, yes,

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Speaker 2: So occasionally out let's say a shooting on a street,

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Speaker 2: We'll have empty cartridge cases laying on the street and

352
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Speaker 2: then a car runs over or somebody steps on. Firearms

353
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,440
Speaker 2: examiners are able to tell the difference from marks left

354
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Speaker 2: from the road and the tires being crushed that way

355
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Speaker 2: versus the extractory jector firing pin marks that are left

356
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Speaker 2: by a gun the same thing with teeth. Teeth don't

357
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Speaker 2: leave the same types of marks that the firearm is

358
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Speaker 2: going to leave. So this cartridge case is still valuable

359
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 2: evidence that can be used to tie that cartridge case

360
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Speaker 2: back to the weapon if it was recovered.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so he might be wrong, but he's showing some

362
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Speaker 1: level of intelligence, right, So he goes he knows that

363
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Speaker 1: the front door is locked because he's seen Mary Louise

364
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Speaker 1: open and close the door for her mom lock it.

365
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Speaker 1: He goes through the back. He probably wouldn't gone through

366
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Speaker 1: the front door anyway. He goes through the back. He

367
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Speaker 1: knows she's in the music room dying or has already died.

368
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Speaker 1: He smashes the back door window in, so they have

369
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Speaker 1: the kind of door that's got the windows in it,

370
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Speaker 1: kind of an ornate door. He smashes it and then

371
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Speaker 1: gets this. He pulls out all of the shards in

372
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Speaker 1: that wind and throws them into the bushes next to

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Speaker 1: the door. Why would he.

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Speaker 2: Do that, Well, he's removing these shards first because he's

375
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Speaker 2: planning on reaching through that window in order to unlock

376
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Speaker 2: the door. And so he's removing the shards. Now do

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Speaker 2: we know if he has gloves on.

378
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Speaker 1: He did not have gloves on, which seems like an

379
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Speaker 1: aut of mission to me.

380
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Speaker 2: Well, but this gives me some insight in terms of

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Speaker 2: what his plans were that night. He may be realizing

382
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Speaker 2: that in order to reach in with those shards in place,

383
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Speaker 2: he's risking being cut. And we see this all the

384
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Speaker 2: time today with burglars. They get cut, they're bleeding at

385
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Speaker 2: these burglary scenes, they're leaving their DNA and agencies that

386
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 2: have the resources to pursue burglaries with DNA testing, which

387
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: some agencies will those guys get caught. Well, so he's

388
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Speaker 2: not thinking DNA back in nineteen thirty five, but he's

389
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Speaker 2: thinking I don't want to get cut, I don't want

390
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 2: to get hurt. But now I'm leaving fingerprints behind on

391
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 2: these shards as I pull him out, and so that's

392
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: why he's hiding them. Yep. But he's savvy enough to

393
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 2: chew on a cartridge case to try to prevent it

394
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Speaker 2: from being identified. If he was planning that night on

395
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Speaker 2: going into the house, he most certainly is probably aware

396
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Speaker 2: of the fingerprint discipline and that those fingerprints could be

397
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Speaker 2: used to identify him. So how come he isn't wearing gloves? Right?

398
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Speaker 2: This tells me that again, this was an opportunity that

399
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Speaker 2: he was not expecting. He may have just been planning

400
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 2: on being there for another night of observation. I suspect

401
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 2: that this is probably a peeping Tom scenario where he

402
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 2: is sexually aroused by watching this fourteen year old girl inside,

403
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden, fourteen year old girl

404
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 2: is essentially alone and he sees, oh, I can actually

405
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Speaker 2: reach out and touch my fantasy now.

406
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Speaker 1: But he is a gun. Would a peeping Tom usually

407
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: bring a gun? I mean, I don't know, Maybe this

408
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: is escalating past peeping Tom by night three.

409
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Speaker 2: These types of offenders, they're going to be armed, some

410
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 2: of them for just their own protection. Wow. Okay, so

411
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 2: they can be very dangerous if confronted. So just because

412
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Speaker 2: he has a gun doesn't indicate he's planning on committing

413
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Speaker 2: a homicide that night. If he's confronted. He wants to

414
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Speaker 2: be able to protect himself and get away.

415
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Speaker 1: So he walks in and he finds her in the

416
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Speaker 1: music room, which just seems insane to me. He knows

417
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Speaker 1: these two little kids are upstairs asleep, he knows the

418
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Speaker 1: parents could come back whenever where the mom and the

419
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: sister could come back, So he walks in, he picks

420
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Speaker 1: her up. Now, just as a disclosure before we get

421
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: into this, this was not a sexual assault. It was

422
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Speaker 1: going to be a sexual assault, but something happens. So

423
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Speaker 1: I just want to explain that to listeners straight away. Okay,

424
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Speaker 1: I am bothered by hearing sexual assault stories. I thought

425
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 1: this was an important story to tell, but I just

426
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Speaker 1: want to say, this is not what happens. Okay, that

427
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 1: was his intention though. He picks her up and he

428
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: takes her to the nearby bedroom. Blood is spilling all

429
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: along the way and he's stepping in this blood, so

430
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: there are bloody footprints. The kids are still asleep. He

431
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: lays her down. He starts to undress her on the ground,

432
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Speaker 1: and then something occurs to him, because he doesn't seem

433
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 1: one hundred percent experienced at getting this far, doesn't seem

434
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Speaker 1: like it. He is worried about the gun. Where the

435
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,919
Speaker 1: hell did I put that gun? What did I do

436
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: with the gun? So he leaves her. He does not

437
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,719
Speaker 1: assault her. She is either dying or already gone at

438
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 1: that point. He goes to the back door and he

439
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: starts looking in the bushes where those shards are for

440
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: the gun. Where did I put that gun? Because that

441
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: gun might be able to be traced back to me.

442
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: Someone comes home. It's the mom and she's trying to

443
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 1: open the door. Mary Louise has locked the door. She's

444
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: banging on the door. Where's Mary Louise? Where are you?

445
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: What's going on? What's going on? And he hides. The

446
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: mom goes through the back She looks at the blood

447
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: that's in the music room. She goes to the bedroom

448
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: where Mary Louise's She obviously is screaming and crying, and

449
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: then she hears a door unlock and someone running, and

450
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: he goes out the front door and no one sees him.

451
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,479
Speaker 1: He disappears, but they've got evidence. There's blood in places,

452
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: he's got handprints. They have these huge columns in their

453
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: front porch. She's got a bloody handprint on the front porch.

454
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: So this did not go the way that he was

455
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: expecting it to go.

456
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 2: No. In fact, this is showing the lack of planning,

457
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 2: and it's also showing an offender, just like a normal

458
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: person about to do something that is nervous, It causes nervousness,

459
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: it causes anxiety. Well, these offenders experience that type of

460
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 2: emotion too. They're excited about this is going to be

461
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 2: a sexually motivated crime. They're excited about what they're about

462
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 2: to experience, but also they're nervous about this, especially earlier

463
00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: in their careers. And this really shows that when things

464
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 2: go sideways, certain people do not respond well. And that

465
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: works to law enforcements advantage because this is now they're

466
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: leaving evidence in that panicked state. And this is part

467
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 2: of when I was working the Golden State killer case

468
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: when it was unsolved, and I'm assessing that offender and

469
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 2: how when things would go sideways or he had to

470
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: resort to Plan B or plan see, how methodical he remained,

471
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 2: how in charge he remained, how he still prevented leaving evidence.

472
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: This told me he's a cool cat, he's a cool customer.

473
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 2: He's intelligent, he's sophisticated, and things don't rile him up,

474
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 2: whereas this offender simply thinking, oh, oh, where's my gun?

475
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: And then mom comes home. He's just panicked. He doesn't

476
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 2: know what to do, and she.

477
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,719
Speaker 1: Doesn't spot him. It's just an open door where it

478
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: was once locked and handprints, and of course she calls

479
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: the police and Mary Louise is dead and they call

480
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: the father back, and it's chaos within the family for

481
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 1: quite a while, and the police in Fresno are alarmed.

482
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: Wealthy family, daughter of a prominent lawyer, safe neighborhood. Of course,

483
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 1: you know, a young white woman high school student who

484
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: was well liked. This sets off so many alarm bells

485
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: in the town, and it's just a panic because it

486
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: seems a phrase that you read a lot in the

487
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds and the nineteen hundreds is sex craze killer,

488
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: the lust killer, all different names for rapist, and I

489
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 1: haven't read the term rapist in a very long time.

490
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: They would say molested, but they determined that she had

491
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: not been sexually assaulted because his own panic prevented that

492
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: from happening. So they go and look for the forensic

493
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: evidence they have, which is the showed up cartridge. They

494
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: find the gun, They have fingerprints, as you said, on

495
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: the glass yards, They have the bloody shoe prints, bloody fingerprints.

496
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: All of this stuff is pretty good evidence. Particularly they

497
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: think the glass yards are good evidence, because I've said

498
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: this before with fingerprinting, it totally depends on the sample

499
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: that you're receiving. If you've got a smeared fingerprint, you're

500
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: not going to be able to see the swirls and

501
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: everything else. Very well, this seemed like a pretty clean

502
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: fingerprint on one of the glass yards.

503
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, that also is a misperception about fingerprints, is

504
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: that as soon as you touch the surface, you're leaving

505
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 2: your fingerprints behind that are good enough to be able

506
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: to be identified back to you. The reality is is

507
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 2: most of the time when you're grabbing objects, especially during

508
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: the commission of a crime, you're not leaving prints in

509
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: a static state. There are a lot of smears, there's

510
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: a lot of fragments that fingerprint examiners are dealing with.

511
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: It's actually the unusual print that is that nice, beautiful

512
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: print looking like somebody just put their thumb down, like

513
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 2: when they are being printed by DMVAH. So to get

514
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: a print like that, that is huge. I've had that

515
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,719
Speaker 2: happen in my career in some cases, and it's just like,

516
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 2: this is a gold mine, and it came from the

517
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: offender and it's easily identifiable, Versus most of the prints

518
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: that I've collected in the course of my processing their

519
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 2: smears and they're fragments. It's really tough to work with those.

520
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: And many of those are inconclusive, and you can't hang

521
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: a case on one fingerprint. Besides the fact that he

522
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: could have said, oh, yeah, I came to the door

523
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: one time and I knocked on the door. I was lost,

524
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: that would have put some reasonable doubt, I would think

525
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: in there, but who knows. They decided that they were

526
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: going to canvas all of Fresno I thought this was

527
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: really impressive. They had hundreds of volunteers who did what

528
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: they called a fingerprint drive, oh, where they had every

529
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: boy and man fingerprinted, three thousand boys and men fingerprinted

530
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: for this case. Can you even imagine would they do

531
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: something like that. They wouldn't do that today.

532
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: Right, No, in fact, I don't think you could. This

533
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: is a kin to the mass screenings that are done

534
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: over in Britain, going back to the call in Pitchfork case,

535
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: where now in a small town they're basically drawing DNA

536
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: amples from every eligible male within a certain geographic area

537
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: that doesn't pass the civil rights test. Over here in

538
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: the United States, you can voluntarily ask, but you cannot

539
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: compel all these men and boys to give their prints.

540
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: And quite frankly, law enforcement today just doesn't have the

541
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: resources yeah to do that. You rely now on the databases,

542
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: the FBI's database, the state databases, and the ability to

543
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: do searches within those fingerprint databases.

544
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what's interesting is the fingerprint drive

545
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: turns up some really good results we'll talk about in

546
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: a minute. But they start profiling, which profiling in the

547
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties was very rudimentary. So they start profiling who

548
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: this person is, and the local police say, this is

549
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: a kid. This is definitely a kid who knew Mary

550
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: Louise Stammer or maybe her sister. This is inexperienced, this

551
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: is poorly planned. This is someone who one of the

552
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: two young girls in this family. They must have said, oh,

553
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: one of us is going out tonight. We're going to

554
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: go to the train station to go take the data.

555
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: And this young boy saw it as an opportunity. And

556
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: here's what tells you about the times. The most the

557
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,479
Speaker 1: police did not believe that an older man would be

558
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: enough of a degenerate huh to try to sexually assault

559
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old. So that tells you a lot

560
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: about society, at least in Fresno, California, in the nineteen thirties.

561
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: They just didn't think a grown man would have been

562
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: capable of doing this.

563
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: You know, you have your chronologic age, but you do

564
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: have criminals that at different stages in their life. You know,

565
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: somebody may start earlier and then somebody may start much

566
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: later in their life in terms of when they commit

567
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 2: let's say a peeping Tom style crime. So the chronological

568
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: age is sometimes tough to assess there's well, what about

569
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: the psychological age of the person. Is there other mental

570
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: aspects to the person that could potentially have manifest themselves

571
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: at an older age. So it's really tough to say, well,

572
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: it's got to be a kid. This is where one

573
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: of the things that I would be and I have

574
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: been wondering about, was the age of the offender. You

575
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: said that he was identified, and it was like, well,

576
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: how old is he? That would tell me a lot

577
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: in terms of where he was potentially at in the

578
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: evolution of his crimes as it relates to sexually motivated crimes.

579
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: Well, this case is really interesting because as you learn

580
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: more and more about the offender, you'll see how a

581
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: lot of this stuff makes sense. They of course found

582
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: out very quickly that this was a spur of the

583
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: moment trip to the train station. The dad didn't even

584
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: know he was going, so there was no Now they said, oh, okay,

585
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: this is not some fourteen year old kid who was obsessed.

586
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: He was not a sex fiend obsessed with Mary Louise.

587
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: This is now the work of an older person who

588
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: is attempting at least to be organized. So here's the

589
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: thing that happens Fresno in nineteen thirty five was a

590
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: fairly safe place, except there had been a recent series

591
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: of break in so burglaries right including at the Stammer

592
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: house twice Walter Stammer chased off somebody he couldn't identify,

593
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: somebody dressed in black who had tried to break into

594
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: a house. And listen to this, whoever did that to

595
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: Walter's house, to the victim's house had cut the telephone

596
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: lines on the last one.

597
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, and again nineteen thirty five. That's interesting. This

598
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: is like a half century before and maybe not quite

599
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: a half century before, you know, nine to one one.

600
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: So the cutting the phone lines was to prevent victims

601
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: inside the house from being able to call the operator

602
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: in order to get help to respond. This is somebody

603
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 2: who is thinking a bit in terms of self preservation,

604
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: whether it is the intent that I'm going to go

605
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: hands on with these victims, or in case I am

606
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: seen and I have to make an escape, I want

607
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 2: to delay the first responders from getting to the location

608
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: so I have enough time to be able to get

609
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: as far away from the scene as possible.

610
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: Yep, it's smart, and we hear that in horror movies

611
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: all the time where the lines have been cut, and

612
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: I had not read of a case actually of that happening,

613
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: and I think it's hard to believe that this is

614
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: not connected. And we'll find out a little bit more

615
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: about that in a minute. So let's talk about nineteen

616
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: thirty five forensics Doberman pictures. I had never heard of

617
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: Doberman's being used to track the scent, but they use

618
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: Doberman's in Fresno. First of all, is that a thing?

619
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: Really?

620
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: Do dogs really do a good job? Have they ever

621
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: broken a case before?

622
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: Well, dogs are a tool. Dogs are amazing animals when

623
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: it comes to being able to smell, and they do

624
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: have success in terms of tracking. But again, they're a tool.

625
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: I've seen dogs track and evidence is found along the

626
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: path that they've tracked. Dogs will track to where an

627
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: offender is hiding. That happens frequently, and it's typically in

628
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: cases that never make the newspaper. So the K nine

629
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: handlers out there can tell stories after stories of that scenario.

630
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: But I've also seen dogs miss, you know, whether it

631
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 2: be scent dogs or decomp dogs, they miss, and it's

632
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: part of that human animal interaction. Is it the animal

633
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 2: missing or is it the handler who's not interpreting the

634
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: animal's behavior as to is there an alert going on? Yeah?

635
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 2: Or is the dog scent if it's a scent dog

636
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 2: has a dog keyed in on the right scent. You know,

637
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 2: if you have an item that maybe multiple people have handled.

638
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: So this is something where they're a tool, but yes,

639
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: they can be valuable. They also can have your false leads.

640
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: This brings up a good point that I make a lot,

641
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: which is that there are lots of forensic tools that

642
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: you could use, dogs and fingerprinting. But the problem is

643
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: is when there's just one of those tools used to

644
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,479
Speaker 1: convict someone and it's something that is on shaky brown

645
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: forensically that could be considered junk science. And I'm not

646
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: saying fingerprints or dogs or any of that stuff is science.

647
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 1: I'm saying that the problem we have is when we

648
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: have investigators who aren't able to gather, for one reason

649
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: or another, more evidence than evidence connected to something that

650
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: could be argued in adulbert hearing where you're protesting the

651
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: admission of some evidence. So I think that's why I

652
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: really appreciate the story because in nineteen thirty five, the

653
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: Fresno Police worked really hard to gather things on this case.

654
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: When it comes to trial and making a case. You know,

655
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 2: of course, in this day and age where we have DNA,

656
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: DNA does not stand alone. There should be other circumstantial

657
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: evidence and other aspects of the case that is built

658
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 2: up and presented in front of the jury. There are

659
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: times where DNA is that is the big smoking gun.

660
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 2: The smoking guns, thank you. But typically the prosecutors, the

661
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: people's representatives are going to try to build a case,

662
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: and this is relying on the original investigators at the

663
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: investigating agency, and then the DA's office typically has investigators

664
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: that will go out and try to show, Okay, this

665
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 2: is the totality of the facts that we believe show

666
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: that this person is responsible for committing this crime. And

667
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: whether you have a fingerprint like it sounds like we

668
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: have in this case, you still need other aspects to

669
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 2: present to be confident that you have the right person. Now,

670
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: he's left a fingerprint in the victim's blood, I believe

671
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 2: you said, that's pretty damning evidence. It wouldn't necessarily stand alone,

672
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 2: but he has a lot of explaining to do. It's

673
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: more than just while I was at the house before. Yep,

674
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 2: he was out the house after Mary Louise started bleeding. Yep.

675
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: So they continue to gather all of this evidence. They

676
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: go on the idea that maybe he was cut by

677
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: those shards because he spent a lot of time picking

678
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: the shards out of the glassdoor. They look at all

679
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: the drug stores, did anybody buy bandages recently? They go

680
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: to the hospitals, did anybody coming injured? They did bullet

681
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,919
Speaker 1: trajectory using string to try to figure out how tall

682
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: this guy was turned out to be average height, which

683
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: is useless. I mean, essentially, yeah, they're shaking down every

684
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: person in Fresno at this point.

685
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: Well, to use the string, here you have Mary Louise

686
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 2: who's been shot in the back of the head. Her

687
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: position has been changed by the offender. She's been moved

688
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: to a different point in the house. So you've lost

689
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 2: that data point in terms of the trajectory. And then

690
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 2: now you have a window, which is likely a single

691
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: pain window. From my perspective, there's no utility in trying

692
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 2: to string that trajectory. You don't have enough information. You

693
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: can just basically say that the muzzle of the firearm

694
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: was at this height at the time the shot was fired,

695
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 2: and was at this distance. Maybe if they have shoe

696
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: impressions or they have firearms discharge on the window in

697
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: order to say yep, at this distance from the window

698
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: when the bullet passed through, and then we know that

699
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: Mary Louise was sitting in that chair. But you don't

700
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 2: have any true objective evidence to be able to say

701
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 2: I've got a valid trajectory. I'd basically be at that

702
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 2: scene going up. A fender was standing outside the window

703
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 2: and shot in there, and I can guess it was

704
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 2: along this trajectory, but I would not be making any

705
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: measurements to that fact, nor testifying to anything related to

706
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 2: that trajectory.

707
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: Well, and it ended up not being helpful whatever information

708
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 1: from that string. What was helpful was the pressure from

709
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: this fingerprint drive that they held. So there were men

710
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: and boys who came up voluntarily. I said three thousand.

711
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: There were people who did not volunteer, and they, of

712
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: course immediately became suspects. They narrowed it down to thirteen

713
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: men who said, no, I'm not doing this for one

714
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: reason or the other. So they compelled them to give

715
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: their thumbprints. But they missed somebody, and this is what

716
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: cracked the case. They got a tip, an anonymous tip,

717
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: which is so often something that we hear of that

718
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: is the turning point in a case that said you

719
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: need to look at this ex convict. So now we're

720
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 1: on an ex convict and his name is Elton Stone

721
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: and you need to take a look at him. And

722
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: it turns out that he was a neighbor of Mary

723
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: Louise Stammer and the Stammer family. Oh okay, they have

724
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: his fingerprint old school because he went to prison. He

725
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 1: was at fulsome and he had a fingerprint on the

726
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,879
Speaker 1: good old school index cards that they always took.

727
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: Yep.

728
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: And of course it matches. And that's not the interesting

729
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: part of this. So this is an ex convict who's

730
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: thirty years old. So now we're going to go back

731
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: to your thinking about this profile. An ex convict thirty

732
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: years old in and out of prison primarily for robbery,

733
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: not in prison for sex assaults or murder, violent crime,

734
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: lots of robbery, lots of grand theft auto from the

735
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: time he was probably twenty, okay.

736
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: And I just want to make sure that when you

737
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 2: say robbery that we are talking the legal definition of robbery,

738
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: which is taking a possession by force or fear from

739
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 2: a person. Yep, okay, because a lot of people will

740
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: misuse the term robbery with Burglary. Yeah, so he is

741
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 2: somebody who has a history of being willing to confront

742
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 2: somebody and take some possession of value away from them.

743
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 2: This is a serious offender. When somebody's willing to take

744
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: that step, this person has a dangerous aspect to them.

745
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: So now I'm starting to think about, Okay, what was

746
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 2: the intent with this repeated surveillance of Mary Louise. He

747
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: lives in the neighborhood. Going back to the famous quote

748
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: out of Silence of the Lambs, you covet what you see.

749
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 2: So here's a thirty one year old man who's seeing

750
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: this fourteen year old girl in his neighborhood. Everything about

751
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: this tends to suggest that he's watching Mary Louise. Who

752
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: knows what his ultimate goal was, but he may just

753
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: be a peeper. And then all of a sudden that

754
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 2: opportunity presented itself where he realized, oh, I can actually

755
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 2: go physical with her. What is really interesting is he

756
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 2: shoots and kills her before he even makes the attempt

757
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 2: to go physical with her. Yeah, is he lacking confidence

758
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: to be able to get into this house and get

759
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 2: her subdued without alerting neighbors, without alerting the other two

760
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 2: children inside the house. He must have plenty of confidence

761
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: in the use of a gun in order to shoot

762
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: through a window at this fourteen year old girl and

763
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 2: then still break into the house and spend some time

764
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 2: with Mary Louise until he goes, well, where's my gun?

765
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 2: And then mom comes home and things go sideways on him.

766
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 2: So he resorts to what he's comfortable with, and that's

767
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 2: the gun. And that tells me he's probably very familiar

768
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: with firearms, probably used firearms during the commission of his

769
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 2: robberies in order to intimidate his victims, you know. So

770
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 2: he's somebody that that is his weapon of choice. And

771
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: he didn't shy away from picking Mary Louise up after

772
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,800
Speaker 2: she's bleeding from that mortal headwound and there would be

773
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: a lot of blood yep, and he goes and undresses

774
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 2: her in a room he was planning on still following

775
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: through with a sexual assault with in essence a dead girl.

776
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: I find Elton Stone to be confusing because this is

777
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: what happens next.

778
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: Here we go, Here we go.

779
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: He says, Okay, you're right, I did it. I shot her,

780
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: but I wasn't ever going to sexually assault her. He said,

781
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: I have a grudge against Walter Stammer and the whole family,

782
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: and if Walter Stammer and his wife had been home,

783
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: I would have killed them. I would have killed everybody

784
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: in the family. I wasn't focused on Mary Louise, and

785
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: he was adamant about that. So the police go to

786
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: Walter Stammer and said, what did you do to this guy?

787
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: He said, I've never met this guy in my life.

788
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: So of course the police say, okay, you're full of it.

789
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: Elton Stone, So why is he deflecting in that way?

790
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: I wonder in the thirties, is it as bad a

791
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: thing now to be in prison as someone who raped

792
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: and killed a child. I wonder if that's what the

793
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 1: motivation was for him to just put out this non

794
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: sensical story.

795
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 2: This is the typical excuse that is given by somebody

796
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: who's admitting to the crime. But then they're trying to

797
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: minimize certain aspects because whether it be their own internal

798
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: morality conflict or because of fear of having that type

799
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 2: of stigma associated with them being an offender that is

800
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 2: sexually assaulting young girls, young boys. You are a target

801
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: of course today imagine and you would know better than

802
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 2: I in nineteen thirty five with kind of the morality

803
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 2: of the culture at that point, the stigma is huge

804
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 2: in the general population about somebody who's willing to sexually

805
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 2: assault a fourteen year old girl. I bet that general

806
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: population culture is also concentrated within the prison system. And

807
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 2: so he's now realizing when he makes this statement, he goes, Okay,

808
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 2: I know I'm going to get convicted on this, but

809
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: I need to minimize what's going to happen to me

810
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: once I'm sentenced and put in prison. And that's my guess.

811
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: This whole thing about I had a grudge against the father,

812
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: and I was going to kill everybody in the house,

813
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: and I wasn't going to sectually assault Mary Louise. That's

814
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: just in a way, he's minimizing the morality of sexually

815
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: assaulting the fourteen year girl. The fact is he picked

816
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: her up, put into her a different room, and took

817
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 2: her clothes off. It's a sexually motivated crime.

818
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: And I don't think this is the first time he's

819
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: done it. Oh and the police don't either, so they

820
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: start questioning him because there are two unsolved cases on

821
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,959
Speaker 1: either side of his prison term, in addition to Mary

822
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: Louise Stammer. Okay, so Elton Stone went to prison in

823
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one for grand theft, auto and robbery, two

824
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: separate things. But before that, there was a woman who

825
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted very violently in her home. She wasn't killed,

826
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: but she was sexually assaulted and phone lines cut beforehand.

827
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 1: Same thing that happened at Walter Stammer's house the one

828
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: time when he was clearly practicing and this was an

829
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: on health case he couldn't be identified. This was in

830
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: Mary Louise Stammer's neighborhood, which at one point was his neighborhood.

831
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: So this is right before he went into prison.

832
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: Okay, So he has prior familiarity with this neighborhood. He

833
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 2: has familiarity with the dynamics of trying to commit this

834
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: type of crime. Do we know what he was cut

835
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 2: on in that first case? Was it, by chance a

836
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 2: broken window shard as he was reaching in too unlock

837
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 2: a door.

838
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know.

839
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 2: Let's take that as maybe that's the case. He breaks

840
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: in a window and he gets cut. Now with Mary Louise.

841
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 2: He takes the time, realizing he's leaving fingerprints that could

842
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,720
Speaker 2: identify him, but he still takes the time to remove

843
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: the shards out of the window pane itself. This is

844
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 2: how offenders learn. This is a minor m O adjustment

845
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 2: in order to prevent something the offender thought was negative

846
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 2: in the past. MO changes from case to case as

847
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: offenders learn, as well as as offenders have to adapt

848
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 2: to the dynamics of the crime they're committing, because sometimes

849
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,959
Speaker 2: victims do things that they're not expecting, or mom comes home,

850
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: then they weren't expecting that, right, So this is what

851
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: complicates trying to link cases when you don't have fingerprints

852
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 2: or DNA the identifying evidence to link cases. Now you

853
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: start looking at MO and behavioral aspects, and MO does

854
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: change and sometimes well is this a different person or

855
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: is it the same person? And they've had to adapt

856
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 2: based on prior experience or the dynamics of the current case.

857
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: So now we're about to talk about really adapting. So

858
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: he goes to prison, he gets out. This young woman

859
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: is attacked in nineteen thirty one. He goes to prison

860
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: for something else because that's an unsolved case. He comes

861
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: out in nineteen thirty four. So Mary Louise Stammer was

862
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: murdered in nineteen thirty five. Before that, there's a woman

863
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: who worked for an inn and she was sexually assault

864
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: and bludgeoned to death. But the killer made a mistake.

865
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 1: He left her alive for too long, and when the

866
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: police arrived, she was still alive. They asked her who

867
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: did this and she said Stone. Huh, And they said

868
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: which Stone, because I guess there were multiple stones. She

869
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: said Clayton Stone, and Clayton Stone was her neighbor, fourteen

870
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 1: year old neighbor. They cleared him and this went cold

871
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: because they said, she doesn't know what she's talking about.

872
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: She knew Elton Stone. He had come to the end,

873
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 1: so they said trauma. Of course, she was being bludgeoned

874
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 1: to death. She just misspoke. She was trying to say

875
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: Elton Stone, but because she said the wrong first name,

876
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: he got away. Then a year later he kills Mary

877
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 1: Louise Stammer.

878
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 2: Okay, assuming the original investigations into these cases are solid

879
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 2: and Elton Stone is responsible for all three of those,

880
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 2: of course, now you have he's a serial predator. He's

881
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 2: willing to commit a broad variety of crimes, so there's

882
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: a level of criminality to him. But this adaptation the

883
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty four case, the woman was bludgeoned, yet she

884
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 2: lived for a period of.

885
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: Time yep, long enough to id him almost.

886
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 2: Noah, So now I'm starting to question his intent going

887
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 2: to Mary Louise and he has the pistol. He's now

888
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 2: bringing a firearm. Is it because I bludgeing somebody? But

889
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: they live long enough? But does he know at this

890
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 2: point that's really going to be a big factor. He

891
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 2: may not even know that she made any statements implicating

892
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 2: him in the nineteen thirty four case, So I would

893
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: want to know that to see if he's bringing a

894
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 2: pistol for the fact that he'll be more confident that

895
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: he'd be able to kill Mary Louise after he leaves.

896
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 2: So there's that, Or is he normally armed with a

897
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 2: pistol because of his just general criminality. Maybe he's going

898
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 2: to run across somebody later that night after he peeped

899
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 2: on Mary Louise and is going to get a wallet,

900
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 2: you know, and he's going to use the twenty two gun.

901
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's a pistol rifle, but the

902
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 2: twenty two gun. If he is aware that that prior

903
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 2: victim in nineteen thirty four lived after a bludgeting, I

904
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: can see where now, okay, I need to use a

905
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: gun the next time yep. And then he's bringing a

906
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 2: gun to Mary Louisa's house. Did he intend to go

907
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: in that night or did he just happen to be

908
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: prepared and the parents left and now he seizes that opportunity.

909
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 2: So this is interesting, you know, from my perspective, I

910
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 2: would want to kind of drill down on the details

911
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: of what was known when and exactly what the original

912
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 2: investigators knew in order to really study the evolution of

913
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 2: this offender. But it does look like you have somebody

914
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 2: who is a serial predator and he's also been in prison.

915
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 2: In prison is the great learning institution for felons, so

916
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 2: he's talking to people and now he's more well versed

917
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,919
Speaker 2: and maybe a broader area of criminality when he comes out.

918
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 2: So fascinating offender from my perspective from nineteen thirty five.

919
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you some state prison at that time

920
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: period was known for the repeat offender route. So that

921
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: was the thing is most of the guys there had

922
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: been there two or three times, So this was somebody,

923
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 1: you're right, who could have been easily educated. That case

924
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: from nineteen thirty four I looked into and it was

925
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: very widely reported. Unless he wasn't intentionally looking, he would

926
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: have known that was very unusual, especially because she was

927
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: accusing her fourteen year old neighbor and Fresno was not

928
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: a huge place, and he would have known. And I

929
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: think that he took a gun because he didn't want

930
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: to make that mistake again because he was almost caught.

931
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: He knew this woman, he had been seen with her,

932
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: he knew her.

933
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 2: And I bet in nineteen thirty four, and correct me

934
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong, they probably didn't have the protections of

935
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: juvenile identity. So I'm sure the fourteen year old boy

936
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 2: with the last name Stone, his name was in the newspaper.

937
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,919
Speaker 2: So if Elton Stone is saying, oh geez, they got

938
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 2: it half right, that's a little bit of an o

939
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 2: shit moment for him.

940
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, big o' shit moment. And I think that he

941
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: saw it by using a gun the next time. And

942
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: as you said, he's a robber and he's familiar with guns.

943
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: So the police in Fresno start pressing on him and

944
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: They say, we know you killed Mary Louise Stammer, we

945
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 1: know it was an attempt at sexual assault. We think

946
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: you were all so responsible for these other two cases.

947
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: And he said, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'll

948
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: give you a few details. Now here's what's screwed up

949
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,879
Speaker 1: about this guy. I mean, beyond everything that he did,

950
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,720
Speaker 1: Elton Stone gives them some details about the other two cases.

951
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: And this is how we know that he knew about

952
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: the second case. He had just enough information of what

953
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,320
Speaker 1: was in the newspapers. He wasn't giving them anything else.

954
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: But what was interesting about Elton was he wasn't asking

955
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: for anything. He was just having fun with the police.

956
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: There's a little bit of where now he's able to

957
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 2: express a level of control, you know, power and control

958
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 2: over his accusers because he knows the facts and he

959
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: knows they want to know the facts. That's what these

960
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 2: offenders do. They'll tease it out but not divulge everything,

961
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: and that can be very frustrating. You know, you're on

962
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 2: the right path, and this guy's willing to talk. I

963
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 2: mean it's like a Ted Bundy. Yeah, he's willing to

964
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 2: give out some details, but he's not telling everything.

965
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 1: No, and so he is ultimately convicted and he is

966
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: sentenced to the death penalty to the gallows in nineteen

967
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: thirty six. And his quote at the end I thought

968
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: was very telling. Before he died, he said, hanging is okay,

969
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: it will clear up my debt.

970
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 2: Huh.

971
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 1: Interesting quote.

972
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, his debt to who, his debt to the devil.

973
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: Not that he had a conscience, but I think that

974
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 1: there are times when people sort of reflect back and think,

975
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: maybe I did make some mistakes. I don't know if

976
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 1: that's the case, but it so minimizes the profound effect

977
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 1: that Mary Louise's death had on her family and on

978
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: that community. This was a woman who had so much

979
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: promise fourteen, wanted to be an attorney. I've never been

980
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: in trouble, just you know, someone who had nothing but

981
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 1: a bright future ahead of her and to take that away.

982
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, these types of crimes, in many ways, are the

983
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 2: ultimate selfish act that somebody does. They will take somebody

984
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 2: else's life for their own personal gratification, and in essence,

985
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 2: that is what Elton Stone did. And it's just terribly

986
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 2: sad to think about the future that Mary Louise would

987
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 2: have had. Many of these cases that have seen this

988
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: type of outcome over and over again, and that's just

989
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:36,280
Speaker 2: part of the tragedy of somebody just trying to fulfill

990
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,280
Speaker 2: a fantasy and they steal somebody else's life.

991
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for your insight on this case. I've

992
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: been reading about it for years. It's been haunting me

993
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: for quite a while. And now I need to buy

994
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:52,320
Speaker 1: myself a salt water aquarium and I think decompress a

995
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: little bit. This was a hard case and I appreciate

996
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: all everything that you contributed to You always surprise me,

997
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:58,800
Speaker 1: Paul with your insight.

998
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 2: Well, you're such a good storyteller. You got me hanging

999
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 2: on the edge going okay, what's coming next? And the

1000
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 2: twists and turns are great. Good. It's a tragic case,

1001
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 2: but it also is an important case for us to

1002
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 2: kind of sort through and digest and learn from.

1003
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: Well, go say hi to your fish for me, and

1004
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:16,280
Speaker 1: I will see you next time.

1005
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 2: All right, sounds good.

1006
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1007
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

1008
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1009
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1010
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1011
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryvogel.

1012
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1013
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1014
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1015
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:52,240
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

1016
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1017
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race of decode the

1018
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available for pre order now

1019
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1020
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,399
Speaker 1: cold cases is also available now.