1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Life can be a lot, and it helps to have 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: a therapist by your side. Register at talkspace dot com 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: to connect with a licensed therapist within days for virtual support. 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: Talkspace is in network with major insurers no insurance. Now 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: get eighty five dollars off of your first month with 6 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: promo code Katie when you go to talkspace dot com 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: slash Katiekuric. Hi everyone, I'm Katy Kuric and this is 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: next question. Did you have any idea that sociopaths make 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: up five percent of the US population? And what exactly 10 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: is a sociopath anyway? Patrick Gagne short for Patricia grew 11 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: up knowing she was different. Emotions for her didn't really 12 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: register the way they did for her family and friends. 13 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: In fact, she says, growing up she mostly felt nothing, 14 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: but she wanted badly to feel something, so when she 15 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: was seven that pressure to feel got so great she 16 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: actually stuck a pencil in her classmate's neck. As she 17 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: got older, to better understand what was going on with her, 18 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: she went out and got a PhD in psychology, and 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: now she's written a book that she hopes will help 20 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: people understand and destigmatize sociopathy and show that in spite 21 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: of it, those who have it can actually build a 22 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: life and have a family. By the way, the voice 23 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: you hear at the end of this conversation is my producer, 24 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: Adriana Fazzio, who is absolutely obsessed with this book. First 25 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: of all, Hi, Hi, thank you so much for being here. 26 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking about your new book, Sociopath. 27 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: I think the first question I would have for you 28 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: is what exactly Patrick is a sociopath. 29 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: One of the most common questions I am asked is 30 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: what is a sociopath? Because there is so much conflation 31 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: between sociopathy and psychopathy, and it's made all the more 32 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 2: complicated by the fact that sociopathy has recently been reclassified 33 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 2: as secondary psychopathy, which makes it even harder to understand. 34 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: I don't even know what psychopathy means. 35 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: I'll tell you so. My interpretation of the research is 36 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: that the classic psychopath has brain abnormalities that make it 37 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: impossible for them to move through complex emotional development. So 38 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: while they're able to feel the inherent primary emotions that 39 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: everyone is born with anger, anticipation, joy, trust, fear, surprise, 40 00:02:52,520 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: sadness discussed, they're unable to learn the social emotions shame, empathy, love, guilt, remorse. 41 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 2: These are things that we're not born with. These are 42 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 2: emotions that we are taught. That is different from sociopathy. 43 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 2: Sociopaths act like psychopaths. Their behavior is often the same, 44 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: which is why they tend to get confused. But sociopaths 45 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: don't have that biological impediment, which means they can learn 46 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: the social emotions. They just learn them differently. And in 47 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 2: the book, I described it as an emotional learning disorder, 48 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: which is what it felt like for me as a kid, 49 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: sort of seeing other kids connect to these emotions and 50 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: I struggled, but I always felt they were there, just 51 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: a little bit out of my reach. 52 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: People seem to use these terms interchangeably, you know, and 53 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: they get confused. They really misname certain psychological disorders or behaviors. 54 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: Why is that? Have we just not really learned to 55 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: parse out the difference between this host of psychological disorders. 56 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: Yes, and I think it's I think it's convenient. I 57 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: think it's you know, it's the research says that sociopathy 58 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: makes up five percent of the population, which is a 59 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 2: lot of people. And I was recently talking to someone 60 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,119 Speaker 2: who works in the prison system and She had made 61 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 2: the comment that a lot of prison psychologists don't like 62 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: to diagnose sociopathy or psychopathy because it's considered irredeemable. And 63 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: I really just think that that speaks to why there 64 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: isn't more research and there isn't more understanding, because it's 65 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 2: just a group of people that collectively we have decided 66 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: are untreatable. So it doesn't really matter whether we get 67 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: to know them better or understand their motivations more comprehensively. 68 00:04:55,120 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 2: So it's just it is. It was psychopathy. Sociopathy was 69 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: the first personality disorder ever identified, and yet I don't 70 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: know that we're any further toward understanding it than we 71 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: were when it was first recognized, which is wild. 72 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. 73 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: Let me get this straight though, Patrick so, which is 74 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: such an interesting name, by the way, you're Patrick without 75 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: a K. 76 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 3: Well, it's short for Patricia. 77 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: Right exactly, which is a cool name. 78 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 3: Thank you. 79 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: My understanding from your book is sociopaths are redeemable. You 80 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: can learn certain behaviors and actually almost develop certain emotions 81 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: with work, but psychopaths are not redeemable. Is that accurate? 82 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,119 Speaker 2: I hate to use the word not redeemable. As of now, 83 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: it's not amenable to treatment. Psychopathy does not seem to 84 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 2: be receptive to any type of treatment, whereas sociopathy is. 85 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: So if sociopaths account for five percent of the population, 86 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: what do psychopaths account for? 87 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: My understanding is it's zero point zero one percent. It's 88 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 2: a very small number. But again, having reclassified sociopathy as 89 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: secondary psychopathy, it's really tricky to parse out the research. 90 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: You have to really dig into it and read to understand, Okay, 91 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: are they talking about psychopathy the nineteen nineties version of psychopathy? 92 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: Are they talking about the twenty twenty version of psychopathy 93 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 2: versus sociopathy? 94 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 3: And I think that. 95 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: That's my biggest call to action is to separate these terms, 96 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 2: give each one a very clear distinction. Because sociopathy is 97 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 2: receptive to treatment. It seems insane to me that this 98 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: is a disorder that affects roughly the same number of 99 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: people as depressive disorders and bipolar disorders. And yet you'll 100 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: walk into any bookstore and there's nothing on the shelves 101 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 2: for sociopathy treatment plans. There are no support groups. There 102 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: are support groups for people who claim to have been 103 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 2: victims of sociopaths, but it's a lot of people, and 104 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: they haven't been given any of the research or resources 105 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: that most of the other disorders have been. 106 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: Well, you talk about innate emotions versus learned emotions that 107 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: are kind of through nature versus nurture in some ways, 108 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: So can you give us examples of how a sociopath 109 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: might like you might move through the world. And then 110 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to you about when you first 111 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: recognized or realized that you weren't quite the same as 112 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: some of the other people in your family or in 113 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: society writ large. 114 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: My experience was very much related to other sociopaths. I 115 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: always struggled with empathy and it's very and again I 116 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 2: want to make it clear, just because I don't necessarily 117 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: react empathically doesn't mean that I want harm for others, 118 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: or that I somehow get off or enjoy seeing others 119 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: in pain. And that's I've seen that argument being made 120 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: and nothing for me. It could be further from the truth. 121 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: I don't react empathically, but I'm not enjoying watching someone hurting. 122 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 2: And I remember thinking about other sociopaths when I was 123 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: in college and sort of marveling over what limited resources 124 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 2: and research there was available. And I remember thinking five percent, 125 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 2: who is checking in on these people, Who's helping them 126 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 2: keep their behaviors in check? Like, I know what I'm doing, 127 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: but what about all the other people? And in that moment, 128 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 2: I remember thinking, oh wait, that's empathy. That's me thinking, 129 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: feeling compassion for others. And it happened pretty naturally. And 130 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: at that time I was only able to empathize, or 131 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 2: so I thought, with other sociopaths. But over time I 132 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: sort of used that experience to grow the feeling for 133 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: other people, other groups of people in my life, outside 134 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: my life, and that's that became my touchstone for how 135 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: to access shame remorse. I might not inherently experience those emotions, 136 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: but I would think, okay, so what if this was 137 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: happening to another sociopath, What if someone was treating another 138 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: sociopath this way? I would try to access it from 139 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: that angle as opposed to just this blanket learning curve, 140 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 2: which is, we don't want to hurt people's feelings, right, 141 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 2: we don't want to that's those are you know, That's 142 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: that's how you socialize a kid, as you you know, 143 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: sit them down and sort of help them understand the 144 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 2: general benefits and not hurting others, not wanting to hurt 145 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 2: someone else's feelings. 146 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: But for me that didn't work. 147 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 2: That those those lessons didn't land, but did when I 148 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: was able to apply them to other people like me. 149 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: You were diagnosed in college. Talk to me about your childhood, Patrick, 150 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: about how this manifested itself, this lack of empathy or 151 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 1: this I guess not feeling certain things right. You do 152 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: feel happiness and sadness. There was a story about your 153 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: ferret dying and your mom told you and you had 154 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: virtually no reactions. So what's the difference between sadness, which 155 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: you say is a basic human emotion, and why didn't 156 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: you feel sad when your ferret died. 157 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 2: I did feel sad when my ferret died. I just 158 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 2: didn't feel it to the extent that my sister did. 159 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: I remember hearing her crying, witnessing her grief, and mine 160 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: was so shallow compared to hers. I do remember being 161 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: sad that I had this little critter that I now 162 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: no longer had, and I remember feeling that I was 163 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: not going to be able to, you know, bring her 164 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: along with me on my adventures anymore. But it wasn't 165 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: that overwhelming grief that my sister was experiencing, and that 166 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 2: feeling that I had to react that way. It was 167 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: sort of this pressure to be performative that I was 168 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 2: really trying not to do. I do experience these emotions, 169 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: as do others like me, but because they, you know, 170 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 2: they aren't demonstrated at the you know, so called neurotypical level, 171 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: they're discounted, or at least they were when I was 172 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: a kid. So that led to a lot of deceit 173 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 2: and manipulation on my part. Not because I was motivated 174 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 2: by greed or bloodlust, but because I understood very early 175 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: I don't feel things the way other kids do, but 176 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 2: I need to pretend like I do. And this sort 177 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 2: of deceit that I had leaned into as a survival 178 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: mechanism over time became a lifestyle because it was all 179 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: that I knew. 180 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about sort of some 181 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: of the things you did as a kid and why 182 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: you did it. But is there something in your brain 183 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: that is there a prefrontal cortex thing or something that 184 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: doesn't process or learn behavior or have you express emotion 185 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: like other people? What are the neurological reasons someone is 186 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: a sociopath or are there. 187 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 2: Biology doesn't seem to play as big a role in 188 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: sociopathy as it does psychopathy. There is no real general 189 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: consensus on why sociopathy presents the way it does. There 190 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 2: have been some compelling arguments on temperament. So children who 191 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: are born with the inherent everyone knows that kid, the 192 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 2: one who's just a better liar, who's manipulating from a 193 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: very early age. That speaks to a certain temperament that 194 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: seems to be predisposed to sociopathy under the right circumstances. 195 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 2: I wish that I could give you a precise answer. 196 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: But one of the reasons, if not the reason that 197 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 2: I wrote Sociopath was because I was hoping it would 198 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 2: be a jumping off point for people to dig in 199 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 2: and say, huh, why don't we know the answers to 200 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 2: these questions and figure them out? Because I believe the 201 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: answers are out there, it's just a matter of time 202 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: and effort to find them. 203 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of your behavior as a child. 204 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: For example, when you stabbed a classmate in the neck 205 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: with a pencil, it sounds to me that you have 206 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: these overwhelming feelings. Can you talk about that and how 207 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: those manifested themselves when you were a kid. 208 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember feeling this pressure. And what I now 209 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 2: understand looking back is that this pressure that I was 210 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: experiencing was caused by what we were just discussing a 211 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 2: little bit ago, This understanding that I knew I didn't 212 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: feel things the way I was supposed to, and that 213 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: if I didn't either force myself into feeling or adapt 214 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: a persona that was basically a mirror of other people's emotions, 215 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: that I would be outed. That the perks of society, 216 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 2: or my family, my mother's not necessarily affection, but having 217 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 2: her on my side, all of that would be compromised 218 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: if I didn't act normal, and I would feel this 219 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: pressure start to build. And it seems to me that 220 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: it resembles a lot of what people who suffer from 221 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: OCD experience, and they have this need to engage in 222 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: repetitive behaviors, not because they want to, but because some 223 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 2: part of their mind is telling them, if you do this, 224 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 2: you will feel better. And that's how I felt in 225 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: that moment when I assaulted that child. I wasn't doing 226 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: it because I wanted to hurt this child or see 227 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: her in pain. It was very much a wrong place, 228 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 2: wrong time. I could feel the pressure building. It had 229 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: been building for days, and putting that pencil into this child, 230 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: to me, was like popping a balloon, which I understand 231 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 2: sounds vicious and violent, and certainly it was, but the 232 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: motivations behind it were neither. 233 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: So was it to feel something. 234 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 3: I think so it was just this release of. 235 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: If not to feel something, certainly to sort of. Later on, 236 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: I described it as this feeling of I am who 237 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 2: I am. I don't care who knows it, I don't 238 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: care what comes of it. I just want to exist 239 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: as I am and doing an act like that or 240 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 2: committing a committing an act like that, engaging in that 241 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: type of behavior. There's no real hiding from it. It's done, 242 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 2: and so for a minute I'm free, I'm pressure's off, 243 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: like I didn't have to keep this in anymore. I 244 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 2: didn't have to conceal this pressure, conceal who I am, 245 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 2: and it was it was a release in a way. 246 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm not a psychologist or a therapist, but it sounds 247 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: to me like you have obviously some kind of issue 248 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: with ID and ego, and your ID has kind your 249 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: ID is likely to in certain cases run amok. And 250 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: your ego, which controls the impulse to do something crazy 251 00:16:55,200 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: or wrong or unconventional, you know it, It doesn't necesscessarily 252 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: enter into the picture. Is that accurate? 253 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: Really sounds accurate. 254 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: I know exactly what you're saying, and I've used a 255 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: similar analogy. Whereas the ID is typically that you know, 256 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 2: tantrum me instant gratification side of oneself, whereas my ID is. 257 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 3: Just a wild little dragon. 258 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 2: And to your point, the ego does have a hard 259 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: time keeping that little dragon locked up and pacified. Not 260 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 2: so much now, but certainly when I was a kid. 261 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 1: And is that something you learned, how to control this 262 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: kind of your drag inside? 263 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 3: I think yes. 264 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 2: But the reason is because so much of my life 265 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: was spent in hiding, was spent lying and denying to 266 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: others who I was, And I found I was so 267 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: much more peaceful when I was alone. And it's because 268 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 2: I didn't have to hide or lie, or or conceal 269 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: any aspect to myself. As I've gotten older and become 270 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 2: more comfortable with who I am, become more understanding of 271 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: my personality type, what it is, why it exists, how 272 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: it exists, how it manifests itself. I don't feel the 273 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 2: need to hide or lie, and that has contributed, I 274 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: would say, tremendously to my destructive urges and impulses and 275 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 2: has made them a lot easier to manage. 276 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: Because you don't feel like you're hiding and you're figuring 277 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: out how to move in the world. It sounds to 278 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: me like you have trouble conforming to societal norms. 279 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 3: Correct. 280 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes I'm in church and I think, what 281 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: if I don't go to church that often? But when 282 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: I do, what if I stood up and started screaming 283 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: and doing something crazy in the middle of church. I 284 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: don't know if other people have this, Like what if 285 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: this happened? Yes, and then so that's like my imagination. 286 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: But then my ego says, I can't do that. That 287 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: will be disruptive. People will think I'm crazy, and I'll 288 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: be in page six in the New York Post. So 289 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: I can't do that. But you know, it sounds to 290 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: me like you have the first part but not the 291 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: second part. 292 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 3: It's cognitive. 293 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: I understand it cognitively, but I think because I had 294 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: I spent so much of my life feeling that I 295 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 2: was very much at the mercy of these urges There's 296 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: always that part of me that goes to that place of, well, 297 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 2: what if this time I can't what if I can't 298 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 2: stop myself this time? What if the urges get the 299 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: better of me? And a lot of that for me 300 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: has been resolved with cognitive journaling. When I find that 301 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 2: I am starting to get concerned and have those feelings 302 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 2: of what if I can't stop myself? One day, I 303 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 2: go back and I say, but you always, but you 304 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: have you know, your your history is that you have 305 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 2: always figured it out and you will continue to figure 306 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 2: it out. But I still feel those feelings of what if? 307 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: You know, I I think I, especially recently having the 308 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 2: book just coming out, I'm experiencing a type of you know, 309 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 2: amorphosis where I'm living very publicly, out loud. 310 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 3: Certainly I've been. 311 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 2: Open, long, open with my friends and family, but this, 312 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: you know, talking to you about something about this is 313 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: not really something I've gotten used to or processed. 314 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 3: You are someone. 315 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: In fact, you're I think You're the only person I've 316 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: gotten to speak with in the last few weeks for 317 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: whom I have had a lifelong appreciation, which is not 318 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: to say that I haven't enjoyed and thoroughly respected the 319 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 2: other people you know, with whom I've had conversations, but 320 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: you have always been someone that was sort of a 321 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 2: touchstone for me in my life, and coming into this 322 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 2: I should have been overjoyed, you know, I should be 323 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: bursting with something. So when I got on the zoom 324 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 2: today and and I found once again those that excitement, 325 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: it's not there. 326 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: As we led up to this conversation. What was your 327 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: feeling apathy? 328 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 2: Just being stuck behind department store glass? Like I can 329 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: see the excitement. I can I can cognitively connect to 330 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: what a exciting and wonderful opportunity it is to have 331 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 2: this conversation, but I'm not. 332 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,239 Speaker 3: It's not connecting. 333 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 2: Emotionally, and it's frustrating and it's it's sad because I 334 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 2: recognize the gravity in not just this experience, but in 335 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 2: other experiences of my life, certainly recently, and I it's 336 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 2: sort of I have to remind myself. Yeah, I mean 337 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 2: even now, I don't. I don't connect the way that 338 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 2: I wish that I could. But I want to be 339 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: so clear that the lack of that emotional connection isn't 340 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: replaced by nefarious or manipulative or deceitful urges it's just 341 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 2: what a bummer, and that more people understood that and 342 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 2: certainly go ahead. 343 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: I was just going to say, so you can't really 344 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: feel things deeply your life like me. 345 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's that's a you're little. 346 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: Men, Yeah, and that's that's okay until you're presented with 347 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: something like a graduation or a wedding or a birth. 348 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: These you know, these opportunities are met with this expectation 349 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 2: of emotion, and when you don't have them, you have 350 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: two choices either admit it or fake it. And I'm 351 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 2: noticing recently that I want to go stoo figing it. 352 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: But you have I think perfected some workarounds, and I 353 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: think in many ways you've been able to figure out 354 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: your lack of emotion and replace it with something else. 355 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: It sounds like so these impulses that you had as 356 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: a child, this kind of almost feeling like there, I 357 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: would describe it maybe like wax around your heart or 358 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: having your emotions almost feel like you're underwater in a 359 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: weird way. I guess what I wonder is criminal activity. 360 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: You know, when people feel this impulse, this pressure building up, 361 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: like you're talking about, this desire to kind of feel something, 362 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: is that what spurs a lot of people to do 363 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: criminal things. In other words, can you talk about the 364 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: overlap between sociothopy and criminal activity or things that are 365 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: just morally wrong. 366 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: My understanding of the research and my own experience indicates 367 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: that that's exactly what's happening. That your need to feel 368 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 2: is really what's driving this destructive behavior. 369 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: You know. 370 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: One of the things that always blows my mind is 371 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: we go to that five percent. Sociopathy is believed to 372 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: represent five percent of the population. But what people don't 373 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 2: understand is that nearly all of the diagnostic interviews for 374 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 2: sociopathy take place in prisons. So it's the only place 375 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 2: that people are largely being diagnosed with psychopathy and sociopathy 376 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 2: is in the prison system. You're going to find that 377 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: most of them are conducting or you know, exhibiting criminal 378 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:15,719 Speaker 2: behavior or engaging in that. 379 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: Right. 380 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: I also know that there are people like me who 381 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 2: have not spent any time in prison, and maybe unjustly so, 382 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: and they are trying to navigate their destructive impulses while 383 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: staying on that fine line of not wanting to get 384 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 2: caught but also wanting to force these these feelings, these 385 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: pops of color and an otherwise black and white emotional world. 386 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 2: And it also speaks to privilege. 387 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 3: You know, I. 388 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: Am very clear that I am a white woman of privilege, 389 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 2: and I had every opportunity and resource available to me. 390 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: What might my life had looked like if I had 391 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 2: been a different race, gender, had I come from a 392 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: different socioeconomic background, I am almost certain I would have 393 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: wound up in prison. And I think about that a lot. 394 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: You know, these people who are incarcerated because they were 395 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 2: trying to force these emotions by engaging in this destructive behavior, 396 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: and that's all they knew how to do, and for 397 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 2: a long time, it's all I knew how to do. 398 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 2: So again, it speaks to the need for more research 399 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: and understanding to help these people certainly be rehabilitated or 400 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 2: at the very least, to become their own advocates for 401 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 2: themselves and for others like them. 402 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: We talked about losing your ferret, We talked about stabbing 403 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: your classmate in the neck with a pencil. But what 404 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: was that first experience like for you when you realized 405 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: you were emotionally out of step with your family, that 406 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: something was different about you. 407 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 2: It was lonely, and again that's not something that people 408 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 2: really think when they think of a sociopath. But the 409 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 2: truth is I didn't choose to feel this way or 410 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: to not feel this way. And I remember feeling again bummed, 411 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: like I wish that I could have those overwhelming feelings. 412 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 2: I wish that I could connect the way that they can, 413 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: and that I could not made me feel very alone 414 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: and lonely and sort of craving companionship of someone like minded, 415 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 2: which was not necessarily the healthiest choice, but that's what 416 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 2: I wanted, I felt. I remember watching Oliver Twist when 417 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: I was a kid, and seeing the artful Dodger and 418 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 2: how Oliver found himself in this, you know, glorified cave 419 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 2: of criminals, and I remember thinking, I wish I could 420 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 2: go there. Those sound like my types of people. 421 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: You would be the artful Dodger. 422 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: I think I probably would. And if you remember the 423 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 2: artful Dodger. Although he was very criminally versatile and certainly 424 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 2: checked every one of the sociopathy checklists criteria, he had 425 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 2: a heart and he was capable of loyalty. He was 426 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 2: capable of more than you might have suspected if you 427 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 2: were just looking at his rap sheet. 428 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: When we come back, Patrick describes growing up feeling like 429 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: she only saw black and white while everyone else was 430 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: seeing color. Everyone needs someone to talk to and text 431 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: with about life's challenges, and while girlfriends are great listeners, 432 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: there are limits to your group chat. A talkspased therapist 433 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: will give you an objective perspective and professional guidance. Register 434 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 1: at talkspace dot com to connect with the licensed therapist 435 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: within day and you can start messaging back and forth 436 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: and also schedule live video or audio sessions. Talkspace is 437 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: in network with major insurers and copays are usually twenty 438 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: five dollars or less no insurance. Now get eighty five 439 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: dollars off of your first month with promo code Katie 440 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: when you go to talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. Match 441 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: with a licensed therapist at talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. 442 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: You were growing up in San Francisco with your parents 443 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: and your sister. How did they react to this your 444 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: black and white emotional range? I think that's so interesting, 445 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: the way you describe a pop of color in a 446 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: black and white world. 447 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's and that's really how it felt. I it's 448 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: such a fun dated reference. But I remember watching that 449 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: who is at aha? Take on me that video where 450 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: he's like trying to get out of this black and 451 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: white cartoon. I remember, yeah, always stuck with me. I 452 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: remember thinking, that's exactly what this is like. But in 453 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 2: terms of how my parents and my sister reacted, they 454 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 2: didn't know was going on any more than I did. 455 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 2: And certainly we were living in a time where mental 456 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: health wasn't a conversation. 457 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 3: There were hardly words for anxiety. 458 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: And depression, which sociopathy or conduct disorder, you know, oppositional defiant. 459 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 2: And I think my mom did the best she could 460 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: with the tools that she had. I think my sister 461 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 2: was different because, you know, my sister, I was already 462 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 2: around my sister was born, so to her, I was 463 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 2: different from her other friends. But it was always she 464 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: never judged me for being different because to her, I 465 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 2: wasn't different. To her, I was just her sister. And 466 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 2: we have such a beautiful relationship, and that my sister 467 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: has every emotional hue imaginable, you know, in spades. And 468 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 2: I always like to joke that she got both good 469 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: sides and I got both dark sides. 470 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 3: But she never related. 471 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: To me as anything other than someone deserving of love 472 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: and compassion, and a lot of my ability to emote 473 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: now is a direct result of my interactions with her. 474 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: You bring up the dark side and the light side. 475 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: Is there any genetic predisposition to sociopathy. 476 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 2: I'm sure that there is. I can look back and 477 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 2: see similarities in other family members, close family members. 478 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: Have you discussed it with them since kind of having 479 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: this epiphany about your own situation. 480 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: Yes, and it's been a very matter of fact conversation, 481 00:30:59,200 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: as one might. 482 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 3: There's a lot of emotion there, but yes, I have. 483 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 2: I've said, hey, I think we should talk about some 484 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 2: of this stuff, and it's yeah, very matter of fact, like, yeah, 485 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 2: you're right, I am like this and I have done 486 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: these things, and we probably are very similar. What that 487 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 2: genetic component is I don't know, but again, looking through 488 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 2: my immediate family and my extended family, I definitely see 489 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 2: I see a few branches that it might need further 490 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: investigation of the old family tree. 491 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: It's so fascinating and it is amazing that more research 492 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: hasn't been channeled into studying this. And I know that 493 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: you believe there's a whole spectrum of characteristics or you know, 494 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: intensity for sociopathy, but I wonder before I ask you 495 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: about your marriage, if you could just click through some 496 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: of the characteristics, because I want people listening to this, 497 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: maybe they will recognize that they have a lot in 498 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: common with what you're describing. 499 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 2: So when you're dealing with sociopathy and psychopathy, a lot 500 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 2: of them overlap, and the consensus is that the classic 501 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: psychopath is going to have more of these traits, like 502 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: these traits are going to be more more prominent than sociopathy. 503 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 2: Superficial charm one hundred percent. For me, again, that was 504 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,479 Speaker 2: a coping mechanism that developed into a lifestyle. But I 505 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: was always very superficially charming. I knew what I had 506 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 2: to do to get people to trust me, and I 507 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: leaned into it very hard. 508 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: You sound like some of my old boyfriends, But go on. 509 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 2: Everybody says this, You're not alone. Grandiose sense of self worth. 510 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: I never really possessed that to the extent that a 511 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: psychopath would need for stimulation. Proneess to boredom one hundred percent, 512 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: pathological lyying, pawning, manipulation, lack of remorser guilt check check check, 513 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 2: shallow affect check, callous, lack of empathy. I want to 514 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 2: push back on that because callous slash lack of empathy. 515 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 2: I had lack of empathy, but I wouldn't describe it 516 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 2: as callous. And I think that such an important distinction 517 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: to be made. Just someone who's lacking an empathy doesn't 518 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: necessarily make them callous. 519 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 3: I couldn't. 520 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: But also if you believe there's a spectrum, there might 521 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: be some who were callous and some who are less 522 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: callous or not callous at all. 523 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 3: Yes, parasitic lifestyle. That wasn't for me. 524 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 2: I was always very capable of excellent school at work. 525 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 2: When I wanted to poor behavioral controls, Yes, promiscuous sexual behavior, 526 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 2: I found that that was that's more a male driven 527 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of gender bias in this 528 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 2: checklist right. Also, the sort of hallmark trade of a 529 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 2: sociopath psychopath is that sort of pushy salesman type of 530 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: behavior where it's this overt aggression the social dominance A male. 531 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 3: Is going to assert social dominance that way a woman isn't. 532 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: For me. 533 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 2: It was always charm and sex. I would never go 534 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 2: into a bar and start throwing my weight around. And 535 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 2: I think that that's something that maybe should be addressed 536 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: in terms of the diagnostics, early problems with behavior, lack 537 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 2: of realistic long term goals, impulsivity, irresponsibility, failure to accept 538 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: responsibility for one's own actions, many short term relationships, juvenile delinquency, 539 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 2: and criminal versatility. So you can see how some are 540 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 2: perfect fits and others are, like, huh, maybe that might 541 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,760 Speaker 2: be for the more extreme personality type. 542 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,280 Speaker 1: And how does this overlap with things like borderline personality 543 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: disorder or narcissistic personality disorder, because I've known some narcissists 544 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: and they possess some of these qualities but not all 545 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: of them. And is it sort of like a ven 546 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: diagram where there is a lot of overlap. 547 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 3: It's behavioral overlap. 548 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 2: And I'm really glad you asked this question because there 549 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 2: is so much confusion the borderline personality, sociopathic personality, and 550 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 2: the narcissistic personality. They tend to demonstrate the same behaviors, 551 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 2: but it's where those behaviors, how those behaviors are motivated, 552 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 2: that differ. So someone who is suffering from borderline personality disorder, 553 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 2: their greatest fear is the re judgement bandon right, yes, 554 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 2: rejection like loss of love. So they will do anything 555 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 2: to hold on to that connection, and oftentimes their fear 556 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 2: is a. 557 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: Isn't it a result sometimes of trauma or abuse that 558 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: they experienced as a child. And similarly, I think narcissism 559 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: is so interesting because it's about not being able to 560 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 1: model certain emotions and a lack of kind of receiving love. 561 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 1: You know, people think narcissists are so full of themselves, 562 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 1: but they just have this insatiable emptiness where they feel 563 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: like they're never going to be loved. And I think 564 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: because of narcissus stared at himself in his own reflection 565 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,919 Speaker 1: that people think narcissis. It's actually a really sad thing. 566 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 2: It really is, and it stems from, to your point, 567 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 2: a deep, deep lack of self worth. Right, they build 568 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 2: this world up for themselves where they are these kings, 569 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 2: which is why grandiosity is so prevalent in narcissism. Everything 570 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 2: has to be perfect, all of their friends have to 571 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: be the best, everything needs to be the best it 572 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 2: can be. And it's all just a defense mechanism against 573 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 2: this crushing sense. 574 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 1: Of worthlessness completely and emptiness. 575 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 2: Yes, and so you see why you can start to 576 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: see how the behaviors are similar. So borderline it's the same. 577 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 2: It's this abandonment, this terror of being rejected, and they 578 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 2: become sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. 579 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:43,320 Speaker 1: Right. 580 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 2: Theopathy is very similar behaviorally, but again we're not talking 581 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,479 Speaker 2: about a fear of abandonment or a lack of self worth. 582 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 2: It's more the desire to feel, the desire to connect, 583 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 2: and it's sort of it's almost like a version of cutting. 584 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 2: You know, I understand that people who cut there doing it. 585 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: To feel, how to feel something, and feeling pain is 586 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: better than feeling nothing. 587 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 2: Yes, and that was my feeling of it. And again 588 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 2: I wasn't always conscious of it at the time, but 589 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,919 Speaker 2: looking back, I remember, I see, I see, I see 590 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 2: the pattern this. I would drop into apathy, the pressure 591 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 2: of needing to either feel or fake it would kick in. 592 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 2: The longer I would go without doing something about it, 593 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 2: the more the pressure would increase, until I would finally 594 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 2: act out in order to sort of neutralize the pressure. 595 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: What's interesting to me about your situation is with education, 596 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: you know, understanding yourself and your behavior, you have really 597 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: learned to manage the manifestations of sociopathy by figuring out, 598 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: really negotiating almost with yourself and with others. How you 599 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: were going to exist in a way that wouldn't harm 600 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: yourself or harm other people emotionally or physically. Talk to 601 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: me about how you were able to do that. I 602 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: know you met your husband in summer camp. You were fourteen, 603 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: he was a few years older, and I feel like 604 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: that that partnership has really helped you become the person 605 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:24,760 Speaker 1: you are now. 606 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 2: Yes, and again, I was very lucky, and I to 607 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 2: the first part of your question that negotiation with myself 608 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 2: is a perfect way to describe it. And one thing 609 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 2: that's almost never present in a negotiation is emotion. In fact, 610 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 2: they discourage emotion and negotiation. And I felt like so 611 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 2: much of those conversations with myself were rooted in logic. 612 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 2: I want to live as normal quote unquote life as 613 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 2: I can. I understand that continuing to act out is 614 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,879 Speaker 2: a threat to that life that I want. 615 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 3: So what do I want more? Do I want the 616 00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 3: normal life? 617 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 2: Or do I want to continue to act out and 618 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 2: manage my impulses this way? That was an easy decision. 619 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 2: Certainly it became easier once I met my husband. He 620 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 2: is such a good person, and he is such an 621 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 2: emotional person, and I knew very early on that I 622 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 2: enjoyed being around him, and I recognize that the reason 623 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 2: was he was the first person other than my sister 624 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 2: who just liked me for me, I didn't have to 625 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 2: hide around him, and he wasn't a member of my family, 626 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,479 Speaker 2: so I knew that it was real. He really wasn't 627 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 2: out of obligation or you know, just sort of a 628 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,879 Speaker 2: knee jerk emotion. He really liked me, and it sort 629 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 2: of made me realize I'm not bad, I'm just different, 630 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 2: and maybe if this guy can like me, I can 631 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 2: sort of learn to live more authentically and not feel 632 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,280 Speaker 2: as though I have to hide so much. 633 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: And how did you get to that point? Because I 634 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: know it took you a long time long to process that. 635 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: How did you get there? And how did your research 636 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: help you? And then you had some hacks with your husband, 637 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: like the little statue of liberty that you would when 638 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: sort of you're the opposite of your better angels would 639 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 1: kind of take over. Yeah, so I know I've asked 640 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: you sort of three questions in one, but tell me 641 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,800 Speaker 1: about getting to this point where you have been able 642 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: to manage. 643 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 2: You know, I went back to school in order to 644 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 2: gain a better understanding of myself. You know, in the 645 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 2: process of getting my PhD, I did, I uncovered a 646 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 2: lot of research about my own personality type, and it 647 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 2: was it was very selfishly driven. And you know, I 648 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 2: want to be very clear on that, I am not 649 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 2: a researcher. I am not some revolutionary therapist. I went 650 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 2: to school and earned my PhD solely because I was 651 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 2: trying to understand and help myself. 652 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: Well that's okay, because in the process you're probably going 653 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: to help a lot of other people. 654 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 3: That's my hope. 655 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 2: But I remember in that process it, you know, and 656 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,879 Speaker 2: again this speaks to my personality type that this didn't 657 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 2: occur to me sooner, but realizing, oh, in order to 658 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 2: get my PhD, I'm going to have to learn about 659 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 2: other people too, which at the time was kind of 660 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,439 Speaker 2: a bummer, But ultimately I'm so glad that I did, 661 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 2: because understanding other people really helped me understand myself better, 662 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,720 Speaker 2: but also how I could coexist. 663 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 3: With others in a way that was healthy. 664 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 2: And you know, that process of again negotiating with my husband, 665 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 2: it was tricky because my husband is a very neurotypical 666 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 2: emotional human being who is like, wait, you're going to 667 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 2: leave a statue on the table for when you do 668 00:41:54,520 --> 00:42:00,360 Speaker 2: something illegal like this is insane, and in retrospect, I 669 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 2: can see why he felt that way, but at the 670 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 2: time I didn't know of any other ways to manage 671 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 2: my pressure. I hadn't fully come to understand it yet, 672 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 2: and this just made sense to me in much the 673 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 2: same way that breaking into cars and homes felt like 674 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 2: a reasonable way to keep myself in check. 675 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,399 Speaker 3: Looking back, I can certainly. 676 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 2: Understand why every alarm was going off in my husband's head, 677 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 2: but it was it was something that we had to 678 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 2: just consistently communicate and discuss until both of us sort 679 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,760 Speaker 2: of had a deeper understanding of our personality types. 680 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: It sounds like for a long time, Patrick, you were 681 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: a very high time and continue to be a high 682 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: functioning sociopath. And in fact, you worked in the music industry, 683 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 1: which in some ways was tailor was tailor made for 684 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: your personality disorder. Can you tell us why? Because I 685 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: think that the music industry is. 686 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 2: Very much a lawless land, and and I love it, 687 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 2: I still do. I don't think it was a very 688 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,800 Speaker 2: healthy environment for me, and had I stayed I probably 689 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 2: would have gotten into all sorts of trouble but I 690 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 2: think that there's a veneer. You know, the entertainment business 691 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:29,320 Speaker 2: in general has been able to conceal oceans of horrific 692 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 2: behavior behind this sparkling veneer, and the music industry is 693 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 2: certainly no different. And I was able to thrive as 694 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 2: a result of my personality type and the moral flexibility 695 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,240 Speaker 2: I naturally was able to employ. 696 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: Can you explain that, because I'm having a hard time 697 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: understanding sort of what you mean by that specifically and 698 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:58,280 Speaker 1: in terms of why it could have been a fertile 699 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: environment for your sociopathic behavior, Can you just help me 700 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: understand that a little bit more. 701 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 2: Sure, it's when you are working with or in proximity 702 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 2: to people of power, you tend to have the same 703 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 2: benefits of that power. So if you are working with 704 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 2: a celebrity who is never held accountable, you sort of 705 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 2: can get away with things and not be held accountable either. 706 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 2: It's like coasting off of that wake. And there were 707 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 2: multiple times where I had opportunities to steal, I had 708 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 2: opportunities to manipulate and enrich myself, and I knew I 709 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 2: would never be caught or even implicated, because no one's 710 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,320 Speaker 2: paying attention to you when you've got a celebrity standing 711 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 2: next to you, and that was something that I recognized 712 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 2: very quickly, and also recognized this is not good long 713 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 2: term if you keep doing this. Maybe I wouldn't have 714 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 2: been caught, but it certainly wouldn't have led to the 715 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 2: life that I have today, which is rooted in like 716 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 2: pro social behaviors and just rewarding emotional experiences. I don't 717 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:08,839 Speaker 2: think I would have found that if I had stayed 718 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:09,760 Speaker 2: in the music industry. 719 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 1: I'm curious how emotional range jibes with a sense of morality. 720 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: Do you have an inherent sense of right and wrong 721 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: or is that you know what I mean. I'm trying 722 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 1: to figure this out, because if you have these urges, 723 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,280 Speaker 1: where does morality come in to being a sociopath. 724 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 2: I think there's a difference between knowing right and wrong 725 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 2: and morality. So I always knew the difference between right 726 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 2: and wrong. It's that that knowledge wasn't tethered to any 727 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 2: emotional construct and that's where I think morality kicks in. 728 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 2: So a neurotypical person is going to know, don't take 729 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 2: the bubblegum off the shelf and put it in your pocket, 730 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 2: because that's wrong. 731 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 3: And when you go home about it. 732 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 2: You're going to feel shame when you're going to feel 733 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:03,360 Speaker 2: the need to atone or confess or apologize. Whereas I 734 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 2: knew that taking the bubblegum was wrong, but I also 735 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 2: knew that when I got home, I wasn't going to 736 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 2: feel badly about it. So that's really tricky because when 737 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,279 Speaker 2: you were lacking those emotional constructs, you have to make 738 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 2: choices based on something external, and that was tough. It's 739 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 2: you know, all of the other kids that I grew 740 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 2: up with, they had things like guilt, shame, and remorse 741 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 2: keeping them in check. I didn't get to rely on those, 742 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 2: so I had to come up with external philosophies. 743 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,440 Speaker 1: So what keeps you from stealing bubblegum today? 744 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 2: Karma's That was just something that really resonated with me. 745 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 2: I really once I started when I got into college, 746 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 2: I think I took I think it was a theology class. 747 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,319 Speaker 2: It was a class that where I had to do 748 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,520 Speaker 2: reading and Buddhism, and I remember really responding to it 749 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,239 Speaker 2: and liking the balance of it this scale and that 750 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 2: really resonated with me, not on an emotional level, but 751 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,280 Speaker 2: on what goes up must come down type of logic. 752 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, this is how I will keep 753 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 2: myself in check, understanding that okay, you can do this, 754 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 2: but chances are if you put too many coins in 755 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,440 Speaker 2: the bad site, on the bad side of the scale, 756 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 2: you're going to have to there's going to have to 757 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,880 Speaker 2: be an adjustment at some point. And the idea that 758 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,800 Speaker 2: I have this outstanding karmic debt, I never liked that feeling. 759 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 2: It's like, no, I want to keep my scale very even, 760 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,239 Speaker 2: I want to keep things very clean and organized, and 761 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 2: that's what worked for me, and I have it's and 762 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,640 Speaker 2: it's It's also not lost on me that that one 763 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:43,279 Speaker 2: of the objectives within Buddhism is a quiet mind and 764 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 2: not being held captive by your emotion. So I have 765 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,960 Speaker 2: been able to utilize that in meditations and things that 766 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 2: are very advantageous spiritually, that maybe someone who is neurotypical 767 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 2: might struggle with more because they can't quite those emotions, 768 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 2: they can't keep things still or as I can. 769 00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,919 Speaker 1: You have two children, and I'm curious how this has 770 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:12,000 Speaker 1: impacted your parenting. This kind of more looking at emotions 771 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,719 Speaker 1: through a glass window people talk about and I know 772 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,439 Speaker 1: you write about this feeling, this overwhelming sense of love 773 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 1: when you have a baby and you didn't feel that way, 774 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:30,840 Speaker 1: how did you manage the emotional disconnect when it comes 775 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,760 Speaker 1: to parenting and having children. 776 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,759 Speaker 2: I remember being very angry when I did not experience 777 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 2: that that surge of emotion, and I looking back, I 778 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 2: was very It was all directed at myself, not because 779 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 2: I was unable to feel those things, but because I 780 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 2: had allowed myself even a sliver of hope that I might. 781 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,200 Speaker 2: So for the longest time, I was so angry at 782 00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 2: myself for like, how could you even think that this 783 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,319 Speaker 2: would be possible for you? But once that went by 784 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 2: the wayside, it went back to logic. It's like, Okay, 785 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 2: I don't have all of the tools that a neurotypical 786 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,719 Speaker 2: parent does, but I have what I have, and I'm 787 00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 2: going to make the best out of what i have. 788 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:17,120 Speaker 2: And I have found that my lack of emotion can 789 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 2: be advantageous when I'm dealing with my kids and they're 790 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 2: really struggling to regulate, or they're really struggling with big feelings, 791 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,959 Speaker 2: I have found that I can intervene in a way 792 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 2: that allows them to express their reactions without the fear 793 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,400 Speaker 2: of my reaction getting in the way, and That's something 794 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 2: I've sort of noticed from friends, family, even watching television. 795 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:41,959 Speaker 2: A child will have a feeling and that feeling will 796 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 2: immediately be met with their parents feeling. You know, how 797 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,600 Speaker 2: could you fail this test or how could you let 798 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:51,360 Speaker 2: that happen? Whereas I've noticed that doesn't happen. It tends 799 00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:55,799 Speaker 2: to be very level emotionally, and I have chosen to 800 00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,040 Speaker 2: perceive that as an advantage. Well, because what choice do 801 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 2: I have, you know, That's what I've got, so I 802 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:03,520 Speaker 2: try to make the best of what I've got. 803 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,839 Speaker 1: Do they ever get frustrated? Or did your husband get frustrated? 804 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: With this sort of homeostasis and the lack of You're 805 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,880 Speaker 1: almost overregulated, it feels like in your emotional state, do 806 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:22,680 Speaker 1: they ever feel like, hello, anyone home? Why aren't you 807 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 1: happier for me? Why aren't you mad that the bully 808 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:29,839 Speaker 1: was mistreating me? Why aren't you? 809 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,239 Speaker 3: Oh, I do get mad, That's the right. I do 810 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,879 Speaker 3: get mad, you know what I mean? 811 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 1: Why aren't you more closely aligned with what I'm feeling 812 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 1: on my behalf? 813 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,960 Speaker 2: Yes, and I've always tried to be very transparent with 814 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 2: my kids. Obviously, my children are young, so I how 815 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:53,440 Speaker 2: old are they thirteen and eight. So I share transparently 816 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 2: but age appropriately. But I've always just tried to come 817 00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 2: at it from a very honest place. I am limited 818 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,439 Speaker 2: in what I can give you. You might not get 819 00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,279 Speaker 2: what you need from me in this department, but maybe 820 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 2: I can help you figure out some things over here 821 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 2: in this other department. It's interesting. My two sons recently 822 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:19,320 Speaker 2: introduced me to Taylor Swift, and through that introduction, I've 823 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 2: been able to communicate with them and understand their emotional 824 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 2: world on a much deeper level. And again, it's like 825 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,440 Speaker 2: being in an art gallery where I might not be 826 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,480 Speaker 2: able to paint these colors, but I can see them 827 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,960 Speaker 2: and I can understand where they're coming from. 828 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 1: And appreciate them. 829 00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:36,840 Speaker 3: Yes. 830 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 2: Yes, So that's been a very very cool experience, sort 831 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,839 Speaker 2: of seeing the world through through their lens and through 832 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,080 Speaker 2: that music. 833 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,800 Speaker 1: You say, you're limited, but can you love? 834 00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,600 Speaker 3: Yes? I think I just love differently. 835 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,480 Speaker 2: And for a long time I was made to feel 836 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,680 Speaker 2: that because I love differently, that love didn't count. But 837 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,880 Speaker 2: that's not true, and I rejected that completely. I don't 838 00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:11,160 Speaker 2: have that instant connection. A lot of times, love for 839 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,720 Speaker 2: me starts out as like a cognitive understanding. But I 840 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,360 Speaker 2: love my children and I love my husband, and although 841 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,560 Speaker 2: that love might not look like someone who is overly 842 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:28,560 Speaker 2: affectionate or overly effusive, I very much love them. And 843 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,800 Speaker 2: I also loved my sister and my mother and father 844 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,600 Speaker 2: growing up, so I always knew. 845 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 3: I was capable. It's just how deep can I go? 846 00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,000 Speaker 2: And I'm finding that as my children can get older, 847 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:50,520 Speaker 2: that ability to connect continues to grow. It's just a 848 00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,759 Speaker 2: little bit different than someone who's neurotypical. 849 00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,000 Speaker 1: When we come back, Patrick talks about controlling some of 850 00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:02,720 Speaker 1: her more mischievous impulses, like dumping a smoothie into somebody's 851 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:09,360 Speaker 1: sunbrief If you want to get smarter every morning with 852 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,720 Speaker 1: a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health 853 00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:16,200 Speaker 1: and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, 854 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:28,960 Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. When 855 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,040 Speaker 1: it comes to your impulses, you don't really necessarily want 856 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,000 Speaker 1: to stab someone in the neck with a pencil anymore, 857 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:41,000 Speaker 1: but you do. Yeah, But you're able to control those impulses. 858 00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:45,120 Speaker 1: But sometimes you do what you call mischief. You know, 859 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,800 Speaker 1: you'll kind of do something funny, and if you're feeling 860 00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: these impulses, you'll put this little statue of liberty figurine 861 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,240 Speaker 1: so your husband can see it. What does that mean exactly? 862 00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,800 Speaker 1: And what are some of the examples of some of 863 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,520 Speaker 1: the things you might do today. 864 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:08,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're really putting me on the spot. Okay, I'm sorry. 865 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,480 Speaker 1: That's my job. That's my job, Patrick. 866 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:12,239 Speaker 3: I know it is. 867 00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,200 Speaker 2: It's not Actually, it's not me because I'm delighted by 868 00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:19,160 Speaker 2: this question. But I can I can feel my husband 869 00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:24,680 Speaker 2: in my head going careful, careful, because he's very protective. 870 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:28,600 Speaker 2: But here's a great example. I don't necessarily feel at 871 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,520 Speaker 2: the mercy of my impulses, but that little dragon's always 872 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,600 Speaker 2: looking for an opportunity to strike. If we can find 873 00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:37,800 Speaker 2: if we can find a justification, do you think I 874 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:39,319 Speaker 2: might be able to come out of my cage a 875 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:43,440 Speaker 2: little bit? And there was I was behind someone in 876 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 2: the car, and this person was throwing all manner of 877 00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:51,080 Speaker 2: garbage out of their window, I mean everything. 878 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 3: Glass, bottles, plastic. 879 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,719 Speaker 2: Just and I followed this woman for a long time, 880 00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:03,279 Speaker 2: and I remember thinking, feeling the little dragon say, come on, 881 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,000 Speaker 2: come on, come on, let me at her, Let me 882 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,920 Speaker 2: at her. And I followed this woman until she stopped 883 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,920 Speaker 2: at a grocery store. And when she stopped at a 884 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 2: grocery store, she took I guess she had had a 885 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,439 Speaker 2: milkshake that she hadn't finished and just put it next 886 00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:23,080 Speaker 2: to another car, which I found just particularly. 887 00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:27,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, like you're gonna put it next to someone else's car. 888 00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,319 Speaker 2: But she left her sunroof open, so I waited until 889 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,080 Speaker 2: she was gone, and then I upended the contents of 890 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,239 Speaker 2: that milkshake right through her open Mercedes sun roof. 891 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:38,160 Speaker 3: And I got back in my car. 892 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:46,560 Speaker 4: You asked, Gosh, I'd like to drive with you so 893 00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:50,799 Speaker 4: I can act out my fantasies when a driver is 894 00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:51,680 Speaker 4: a real jerk. 895 00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,719 Speaker 2: It was just one of those moments where again I 896 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:56,520 Speaker 2: knew I wasn't supposed to do it. I knew that 897 00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,080 Speaker 2: it was wrong, but I also knew that I didn't 898 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,680 Speaker 2: have those emotions keeping me in check. 899 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,840 Speaker 3: And it was just I was in a mood. 900 00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,759 Speaker 1: And to me, it almost sounds like you had the 901 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,040 Speaker 1: emotions that you couldn't keep in check. 902 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,520 Speaker 3: Anger. Well, it was anger, and that's and and. 903 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,840 Speaker 1: And that's one of those things that you innately have, yes. 904 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,200 Speaker 2: And I but I have never been I've never had 905 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,640 Speaker 2: much of a temper I'm not really explosive in that way, 906 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,680 Speaker 2: but I think it also stems from a place of 907 00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,960 Speaker 2: I am a sociopath, and by the virtue of that diagnosis, 908 00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,880 Speaker 2: I have been subjected to all manner of criticism, and 909 00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:43,120 Speaker 2: I'm expected to keep myself in check and honest, and 910 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,640 Speaker 2: and I'm expected put that figurine on the desk when 911 00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,680 Speaker 2: I get home, and I adhere to these these rules 912 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,200 Speaker 2: that I that I work very hard to keep in place, 913 00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,799 Speaker 2: and then when I every once in a while, it's 914 00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:56,920 Speaker 2: very exhausting. 915 00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:58,480 Speaker 3: So when I come across somebody. 916 00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:03,440 Speaker 2: Who's just doing whatever what with no consequence whatsoever, I 917 00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:05,760 Speaker 2: think that was more like, well, how come this lady. 918 00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:06,120 Speaker 3: Gets to do this? 919 00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,320 Speaker 2: Like she shouldn't be doing this? This is horrible, She's 920 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,920 Speaker 2: she's destroying the earth. And I've and I'm not in 921 00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:15,360 Speaker 2: a nude, did you. 922 00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,320 Speaker 1: I wish you had stuck around to see her reaction. 923 00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:23,000 Speaker 2: The only reason I didn't was because there are cameras 924 00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:27,280 Speaker 2: everywhere now and I wanted to sew badly. 925 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:28,320 Speaker 3: But I can. I don't. 926 00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,960 Speaker 2: I don't know that we needed to be there in 927 00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,120 Speaker 2: order to guess what that reaction was. It was a 928 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:38,160 Speaker 2: very nice car, and this was not. This was a 929 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,080 Speaker 2: This was a very wealthy woman, clearly based on what 930 00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:43,959 Speaker 2: she was wearing when she was driving, and I'm sure 931 00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:45,600 Speaker 2: that she wasn't rilled. 932 00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:53,600 Speaker 1: I think it's important for the world to see someone intelligent, successful, 933 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:58,360 Speaker 1: well spoken, thoughtful talk about her life as a sociopath. 934 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:04,160 Speaker 1: What has the response to your unleashing this on the world. 935 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:05,880 Speaker 1: What has the response been? 936 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:11,280 Speaker 2: You know, it's largely been so positive. I've heard from 937 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,640 Speaker 2: so many people who resonate with my experience and my 938 00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:23,160 Speaker 2: personality type, who see themselves represented positively. They see someone 939 00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:27,960 Speaker 2: like them who is functioning in society, in a healthy relationship, 940 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,480 Speaker 2: and has kids, has a good relationship with those kids, 941 00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,200 Speaker 2: has friends, has a job, is able to live a 942 00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:40,040 Speaker 2: normal life out of hiding. And that's been the positive element. 943 00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,400 Speaker 2: And it's been largely positive. And that's mostly from people 944 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,600 Speaker 2: who are like me or people who know people like me. 945 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,360 Speaker 2: But I'm also finding that the reaction to my book, 946 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:52,520 Speaker 2: again by virtue of the fact that I have outed 947 00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,720 Speaker 2: myself as a sociopath, people reacting with their own ideas 948 00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,640 Speaker 2: of who I am and more concerning who they want 949 00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,400 Speaker 2: me to be. A lot of people I found they 950 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,400 Speaker 2: want me to be a liar. They want me to 951 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,960 Speaker 2: be a fake, They want me to be that stereotypical sociopath. 952 00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:15,240 Speaker 2: And I find that to be problematic because why on 953 00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:19,880 Speaker 2: earth would someone like me, others like me want to 954 00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:24,440 Speaker 2: come forward or admit to being sociopathic if the climate 955 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:32,600 Speaker 2: is still so dangerous for them. So that's I expected skepticism, 956 00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:38,320 Speaker 2: But skepticism in the presence of fact is where I realize, Oh, 957 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,360 Speaker 2: it's not that you don't believe me, it's that you 958 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,600 Speaker 2: have chosen that I am going to be a liar 959 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:46,360 Speaker 2: full stop. 960 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:47,920 Speaker 3: I think that's more convenient. 961 00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:54,320 Speaker 2: But choosing to deny reality doesn't change reality. It just 962 00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:58,640 Speaker 2: makes you less safe within that reality. So that's something 963 00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,240 Speaker 2: that I'm that I'm trying to now navigate, not for 964 01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,640 Speaker 2: myself as much as for the others like me who 965 01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:07,080 Speaker 2: were watching and trying to make decisions for themselves. 966 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Do you think this will lead to more research and 967 01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:14,280 Speaker 1: more of a focus since so many people fall into 968 01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:18,960 Speaker 1: this category, given that there's a spectrum, but so many people, 969 01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:22,160 Speaker 1: if in fact five percent, as you said earlier, Patrick, 970 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,800 Speaker 1: that's a lot of people. Do you think this might 971 01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:31,400 Speaker 1: lead to mental health professionals wanting to understand this particular 972 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,440 Speaker 1: disorder better or this neuro divergence better. 973 01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:39,560 Speaker 2: I really hope so, and I think it will, because 974 01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:43,480 Speaker 2: this is a conversation that wasn't happening before that seems 975 01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,960 Speaker 2: to be happening now, and so much research has already 976 01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,320 Speaker 2: been done. One of the struggles I had in writing 977 01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,360 Speaker 2: this book is I had to stick to the research 978 01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:54,720 Speaker 2: that was available to me at the time that I 979 01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,720 Speaker 2: was in college, which was ten thousand years ago. But 980 01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:03,560 Speaker 2: in researching more recently, there's so much more now, and 981 01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,920 Speaker 2: I can only hope that conversations like this will move 982 01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:14,720 Speaker 2: the needle even more toward wanting clarity, wanting understanding. It 983 01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:22,480 Speaker 2: is very important that we not marginalize everyone who is sociopathic. 984 01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:27,400 Speaker 2: Understand there are those extreme versions of this personality type 985 01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,160 Speaker 2: who should be avoided, whose behavior should never be condoned. 986 01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,120 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to romanticize this personality type at all, 987 01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:36,840 Speaker 2: simply to bring awareness that there is more to this 988 01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:40,840 Speaker 2: personality type than that's extreme version. There are so many 989 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:43,680 Speaker 2: people who fall on the mild to moderate side, for 990 01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:47,760 Speaker 2: whom treatment is very possible and could be very effective. 991 01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:50,360 Speaker 2: But in order to treat something, you have to be 992 01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,479 Speaker 2: able to identify it, and right now, sociopathy doesn't really 993 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:59,200 Speaker 2: have an identification beyond this sort of sensationalized definition and 994 01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:03,120 Speaker 2: it's not in the not anymore. And that's another issue 995 01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:07,439 Speaker 2: that's confusing, is that it was quote unquote replaced by 996 01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:12,040 Speaker 2: antisocial personality disorder. But what's so important to understand is 997 01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:17,600 Speaker 2: it wasn't replaced because you can't diagnose sociopathy using the 998 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:22,080 Speaker 2: criteria for antisocial personality disorder, just like you can't diagnose 999 01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:27,160 Speaker 2: antisocial personality disorder using the sociopathic criteria. They're very similar, 1000 01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:31,600 Speaker 2: but the diagnostics are completely separate. And I think that 1001 01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:35,560 Speaker 2: there should be a section within the DSM that deals 1002 01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:40,080 Speaker 2: with psychopathy, sociopathy, and antisocial personality disorders because they are 1003 01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:44,120 Speaker 2: very similar but diagnostically very separate, and I think that 1004 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,160 Speaker 2: would bring a lot of clarity to how they're different, 1005 01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,000 Speaker 2: how they can be treated, especially early. That's the research 1006 01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:54,320 Speaker 2: indicates that you cannot diagnose a child as sociopathic, but 1007 01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:59,360 Speaker 2: sociopathic leaning children respond quite favorably to early intervention. That 1008 01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,960 Speaker 2: would save so many people from having to go through 1009 01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,520 Speaker 2: the stuff that I went through and others like me 1010 01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:08,200 Speaker 2: went through, and especially when it's an easy intervention. I'm 1011 01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:10,880 Speaker 2: using that, you know, loosely. 1012 01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,000 Speaker 1: By air quotes. Yeah, yes, but it's. 1013 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:18,000 Speaker 2: Not We're not talking about intensive therapy or institutionalized treatment. 1014 01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:24,040 Speaker 2: It's this is cognitive behavioral interventions, talk, therapy, analysis. These 1015 01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:28,000 Speaker 2: are things from which sociopathic leaning children can really benefit. 1016 01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:30,960 Speaker 2: But right now I get letters from parents all the time. 1017 01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:33,000 Speaker 2: Where should I send my child? What should I do? 1018 01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 3: I don't have an answer because there isn't that collective 1019 01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:39,360 Speaker 3: understanding yet. 1020 01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:42,880 Speaker 1: Well maybe this will be the start of a movement. 1021 01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:48,560 Speaker 1: Who knows, God would I'm curious, Patrick, how can someone 1022 01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:53,000 Speaker 1: tell if their child has these tendencies and might fall 1023 01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,120 Speaker 1: into the category of sociopath. 1024 01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,240 Speaker 2: It's tough because you cannot diagnose a child as a sociopath. 1025 01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:03,760 Speaker 2: There is no diagnostic criteria for children who fall in 1026 01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:09,480 Speaker 2: this category. Conduct disorder, oppositional defiant. Those are typically the 1027 01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,000 Speaker 2: diagnostics we look to for someone who might later in 1028 01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,760 Speaker 2: life become a sociopath. But if you have a child 1029 01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:19,400 Speaker 2: that you think whose experience is similar to mine, my 1030 01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,600 Speaker 2: advice would be to sit that child down and ask 1031 01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:27,520 Speaker 2: him or her how they experience emotion instead of always 1032 01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:31,880 Speaker 2: relying on behavior or punishing the behavior or trying to 1033 01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,680 Speaker 2: eradicate the behavior. Talk to that child and give them 1034 01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,720 Speaker 2: space to have an emotional reaction that is different from yours. 1035 01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:42,240 Speaker 2: That was something that was really helpful for me. I 1036 01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,120 Speaker 2: didn't have that growing up. It was this is the 1037 01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:45,680 Speaker 2: way you're supposed to feel, and if you don't feel 1038 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,040 Speaker 2: this way, you're wrong. But once I understood, no, that's incorrect. 1039 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:54,840 Speaker 2: People feel things differently all over the place. And giving 1040 01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:59,000 Speaker 2: a child the permission to not care, giving a child 1041 01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:03,240 Speaker 2: the permission to not have remorse without you know, resorting 1042 01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:08,160 Speaker 2: to that knee jerk lesson of shame or guilt. That's 1043 01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,400 Speaker 2: really what I would would do if I had a 1044 01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,280 Speaker 2: child who is who I appeared to have sociopathic traits, 1045 01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:16,680 Speaker 2: talk to me about how you feel, what is your 1046 01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,440 Speaker 2: what does your world look like? And make it safe 1047 01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,640 Speaker 2: for that child to admit it. And another thing I 1048 01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:26,120 Speaker 2: would do, and this sounds like a flipant answer, but 1049 01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:28,960 Speaker 2: it's it's not. I would sit that child down and 1050 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:33,680 Speaker 2: I would watch the New Wednesday Adams series with that child, 1051 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,240 Speaker 2: because something that was so clear to me in watching 1052 01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,880 Speaker 2: that was that Wednesday Adams is a sociopath. She meets 1053 01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:45,560 Speaker 2: every single one of the criteria on the sociopathic checklist. 1054 01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,400 Speaker 2: And yet this is also a child that's capable of 1055 01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,600 Speaker 2: learning how to love, learning, how to connect, learning how 1056 01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:54,120 Speaker 2: to empathize. It takes her a bit, she struggles, but 1057 01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:57,280 Speaker 2: she can do it. She's capable of loyalty. She grieves 1058 01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,000 Speaker 2: when she loses her pet. She doesn't grieve like everyone else, 1059 01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:04,160 Speaker 2: but she does it. And it's certainly sensational. But the 1060 01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:09,160 Speaker 2: Wednesday Atams Tim Burton's Wednesday Adams, I believe encompasses a 1061 01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:14,080 Speaker 2: more comprehensive composite of the sociopathic personality. And I would 1062 01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:15,880 Speaker 2: have my kid watch that, and I would watch it 1063 01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,280 Speaker 2: with them and normalize their experience and discuss their experience 1064 01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,080 Speaker 2: and use that as a jumping off point. 1065 01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:26,280 Speaker 1: That's a fascinating suggestion for a lot of parents. Adriana 1066 01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:29,520 Speaker 1: wanted to add, what, wait, is there something I didn't 1067 01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:30,600 Speaker 1: ask that you want me to ask? 1068 01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:33,960 Speaker 5: Well, the one thing I was going to say, h Rana. 1069 01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:36,720 Speaker 1: Is obsessed with you, Patford. Well, I loved your book. 1070 01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:37,320 Speaker 3: Thank you. 1071 01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,160 Speaker 5: And what I liked about your book is I am 1072 01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,640 Speaker 5: a Catholic school like guilt ridden child, so I never 1073 01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:47,919 Speaker 5: had fear that I was also a sociopath and because 1074 01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:49,560 Speaker 5: I'm so gilbritten. But the other thing I was going 1075 01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:52,200 Speaker 5: to say is in the new Taylor Swift album that 1076 01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,000 Speaker 5: came out this week, I'll broads lead back to Taylor Swift, No, 1077 01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:57,120 Speaker 5: I'm wearing my well. This week, I was reading your 1078 01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,400 Speaker 5: book and listening to her new album, and there's a 1079 01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:01,960 Speaker 5: song called I Look Through People's Windows, So you should 1080 01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:02,520 Speaker 5: listen to that. 1081 01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:06,200 Speaker 2: So many people have sent me that song, and I 1082 01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:10,000 Speaker 2: very very I was delighted by it. I know exactly 1083 01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:12,400 Speaker 2: what you're talking about, and I think it's such a 1084 01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,919 Speaker 2: cool song and I obviously relate to it. But it's 1085 01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:18,640 Speaker 2: nice to you know, even though do I think Taylor 1086 01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,600 Speaker 2: Swift is a sociopath. No, But it's so nice to 1087 01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,240 Speaker 2: see themes like that sort of put in the universe 1088 01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,600 Speaker 2: in a way that's positive and that a lot of 1089 01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,280 Speaker 2: people can relate to. And that's something that I really 1090 01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,520 Speaker 2: you know, this is a very relatable disorder. These feelings 1091 01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,400 Speaker 2: that I have are shared by a lot of people. 1092 01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:39,840 Speaker 2: Like you know, my husband is also a Catholic school 1093 01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:47,760 Speaker 2: victim and others from so much guilt, and he loves 1094 01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:50,240 Speaker 2: sort of escaping into these places of what if and 1095 01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:52,240 Speaker 2: what if I didn't. And the truth is we all 1096 01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:54,600 Speaker 2: do that. It's not what we feel, is what we do. 1097 01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:59,200 Speaker 2: So I'm so grateful for that song, and just like 1098 01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:01,320 Speaker 2: all the stuff that you things about that are taboo, 1099 01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:02,280 Speaker 2: it's I love it. 1100 01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:02,760 Speaker 3: It's good. 1101 01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:06,680 Speaker 1: Well, Patrick Gagney, thank you so much for this conversation. 1102 01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:10,000 Speaker 1: I know you weren't very excited about it, but I 1103 01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:11,520 Speaker 1: hope you feel good about it. 1104 01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:12,720 Speaker 3: I feel great about it. 1105 01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:16,400 Speaker 2: That's I can't tell you how cognitively I am so 1106 01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:20,439 Speaker 2: excited to have been able to have this conversation with you. 1107 01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:21,360 Speaker 3: I have been. 1108 01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,040 Speaker 2: I have been looking to you my whole life. I 1109 01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,920 Speaker 2: wasn't able to connect with others, but I remember watching 1110 01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:32,599 Speaker 2: you on television and connecting to you because you were 1111 01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:37,840 Speaker 2: always so logical, You had the facts, you were so level, 1112 01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:44,040 Speaker 2: and I really appreciate and I experience cognitively, or understand cognitively, 1113 01:08:44,360 --> 01:08:46,360 Speaker 2: what a momentous occasion this is for me. 1114 01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:49,120 Speaker 3: Personally, I might not have the emotional reaction, but. 1115 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:49,519 Speaker 4: I get it. 1116 01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:52,240 Speaker 1: Well, that's so nice of you to say maybe I'm 1117 01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:53,120 Speaker 1: a sociopath. 1118 01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:53,960 Speaker 3: Probably. 1119 01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,720 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Everyone, If you have a question for me, 1120 01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:08,599 Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover or you want 1121 01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:11,639 Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy 1122 01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:15,080 Speaker 1: world reach out. You can leave a short message at 1123 01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:18,479 Speaker 1: six h nine five point two five to five five, 1124 01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,320 Speaker 1: or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I 1125 01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:24,280 Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. Next Question is a 1126 01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:29,040 Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers 1127 01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:33,240 Speaker 1: are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer 1128 01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:37,599 Speaker 1: is Ryan Martx, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and 1129 01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:43,040 Speaker 1: Meredith Barnes. 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