Speaker 1: What is orange wine? I know nothing about wines. Don't worry.
Speaker 1: I'm very interested to know about your nothing. What is
Speaker 1: orange wine? Because that sounds really weird and good? Is
Speaker 1: it like Fanta? Do you mean fanta? Crazy? Sweet and carbonated?
Speaker 1: And my dad needs to say this was wine and
Speaker 1: it's orange, so you know it's it's phantom medicine. You
Speaker 1: ever heard of high See? Hello, I'm Mini driver. Welcome
Speaker 1: to Many Questions Season two. I've always loved Pruce's question.
Speaker 1: It was originally a nineteenth century parlor game where players
Speaker 1: would ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing
Speaker 1: the other player's true nature. It's just the scientific method really.
Speaker 1: In asking different people the same set of questions, you
Speaker 1: can make observations about which truths appeared to me universal.
Speaker 1: I love this discipline, and it made me wonder, what
Speaker 1: if these questions were just the jumping off point, what
Speaker 1: greater depths would be revealed if I ask these questions
Speaker 1: as conversation starters with thought leaders and trailblazers across all
Speaker 1: these different disciplines. So I adapted prus questionnaire and I
Speaker 1: wrote my own seven questions that I personally think a
Speaker 1: pertinent to a person's story. They are, when and where
Speaker 1: were you happiest? What is the quality you like least
Speaker 1: about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?
Speaker 1: What question would you most like answered? What person, place,
Speaker 1: or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
Speaker 1: your last meal? And can you tell me something in
Speaker 1: your life that's grown out of a personal disaster? And
Speaker 1: I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that
Speaker 1: I am honored and humbled to have had the chance
Speaker 1: to engage with. You may not hear their answers to
Speaker 1: all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to
Speaker 1: which questions closest to their experience or the most surprising,
Speaker 1: or created the most fertile ground to connect. My guest
Speaker 1: today is musician and songwriter Madison Cunningham at She is
Speaker 1: one of the youngest guests I've had on my show,
Speaker 1: but you wouldn't know it from the wisdom and sort
Speaker 1: of old soulness that radiates not only through the lyrics
Speaker 1: she writes, but also in the way she speaks. Whether
Speaker 1: she's performing solo or sharing the stage with some of
Speaker 1: folk music's biggest names. Madison's musical talents are really not
Speaker 1: to be missed. I love hearing a songwriter describe the
Speaker 1: world in their own words, and it was delightful hearing
Speaker 1: Madison's perspective on my questions. I've really hope you enjoy
Speaker 1: our lovely conversation. What person, place, or experience most altered
Speaker 1: your life? I would say music has been the thing.
Speaker 1: I think touring the country and the world was the
Speaker 1: thing that very much challenged my worldview and my line
Speaker 1: of thinking because I was immediately met with or I
Speaker 1: should say, my opinions were met with experiences, and that
Speaker 1: changes everything. You can have thoughts about the way you
Speaker 1: think life should be or the way you've known it
Speaker 1: to be with them. When you like actually experienced life
Speaker 1: and open yourself up to other people's experiences, your opinions
Speaker 1: on things drastically changed. And I remember the first tour
Speaker 1: I ever did. I was opening for Chris Thealy and
Speaker 1: the Punch Brothers, and we both had a really similar background,
Speaker 1: like both grew up in the church. We were both
Speaker 1: homeschooled the whole way through, and I don't know many
Speaker 1: people who had a similar story like that. We just
Speaker 1: were talking on the bus and I just was asking
Speaker 1: questions and I just will never forget one thing that
Speaker 1: he said to me. He's like, you're twenty one now,
Speaker 1: and I was like yeah, and he was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: things are going to change for you. And he wasn't
Speaker 1: arrogant or like condescending or anything. It just was like
Speaker 1: he was coming from a place of sincerely sympathizing with
Speaker 1: me and going or empathizing maybe and being like, I
Speaker 1: know exactly what you're saying, and I understand it completely
Speaker 1: and why you're asking these things, but also like it's
Speaker 1: going to change for you. I just know it. And
Speaker 1: he was right like and I don't even remember exactly
Speaker 1: what I asked him, but I remember the place that
Speaker 1: it was coming from. And I was very just fearful.
Speaker 1: I just I just was nervous and scared, and I
Speaker 1: felt I was experiencing impostor syndrome too. So I always
Speaker 1: say music in a way saved my life, and I
Speaker 1: think made me the person that I am because it
Speaker 1: just immediately challenged me and caused me to open my
Speaker 1: eyes and touch the world in a different way. Did
Speaker 1: you write different music before music became your I don't
Speaker 1: want to use the word escape, but maybe your evolution
Speaker 1: out of that that first part of your life. Did
Speaker 1: you write music while you were still within it? And
Speaker 1: then did you write your way out of it? Yes?
Speaker 1: And yes? And what was that music like? Like? Do
Speaker 1: you have recordings of it? Like? What was it like?
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm still very much that person. Always
Speaker 1: had a curiosity of like breaking musical rules. I really
Speaker 1: really enjoyed that and just had a curiosity around that.
Speaker 1: But in terms of like writing, my lyrics were very
Speaker 1: stale and they didn't show anything. They just told everything.
Speaker 1: I have a bit of embarrassment around that phase of
Speaker 1: writing that. There was a whole record that I did
Speaker 1: that had all of the songs on it, which has
Speaker 1: since been taken down, and again, like, musically I'm very
Speaker 1: proud of that record, but thematically and lyrically, I just
Speaker 1: felt that I was showing my age. I think I
Speaker 1: wrote my way out of it. Like I had a
Speaker 1: friend who had sent me a book. Have you ever
Speaker 1: read the book Writing Better Lyrics by Pat Pattinson? No,
Speaker 1: Yeah you should. It's within the first three chapters you
Speaker 1: get his point and like that's just enough to change
Speaker 1: you and to inspire you, and the rest of the
Speaker 1: books great too. But he goes on this whole tangent
Speaker 1: about object writing and sort of how to write from
Speaker 1: your senses, and that really teaches you how to write
Speaker 1: in metaphor and to incorporate imagery and that phase. I
Speaker 1: was probably eighteen when I read that book, and I
Speaker 1: just remember that my writing started to take a turn
Speaker 1: because I would think about those exercises and his whole
Speaker 1: thing is like, you write on an object using your senses.
Speaker 1: You write every day, but it can only be for
Speaker 1: ten minutes, so when the timer goes off, you have
Speaker 1: to be done. It doesn't matter if your thought was
Speaker 1: finished or not. But it's all about teaching the brain
Speaker 1: to dive deeper in a shorter amount of time. So
Speaker 1: just when I did that and kind of went full
Speaker 1: force with that exercise, I really feel like that's when
Speaker 1: I started to write songs that I was proud of
Speaker 1: and could like get behind. Now, Great, that's really cool.
Speaker 1: I want to check that book out. It's incredible. I
Speaker 1: mean from the first page or like just reading the
Speaker 1: way that a writer writes, it's so inspiring. I think
Speaker 1: you totally dig it. What question would you most like answered?
Speaker 1: I think this is really on the nose, but I
Speaker 1: would love to know if there was an afterlife or not. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if everybody feels that way, but for me,
Speaker 1: it's like that would maybe help things in terms of
Speaker 1: like the way that we grieve. It's like, well, we
Speaker 1: see that person again. I don't know. Did you have
Speaker 1: a spiritual upbringing? I totally did. I did. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so much of my young adult life has been shedding
Speaker 1: all of that but also coming back to it in
Speaker 1: different ways that I can't sort of help. Like, I
Speaker 1: guess that question was planted in me as a kid,
Speaker 1: but there was always an answer for it. There was
Speaker 1: always like, yes, there is there is the hope of that.
Speaker 1: And now I still have that question, but don't feel
Speaker 1: like I have an answer. And there's a mystery to that.
Speaker 1: There's a mystery that I've become totally comfortable with. But
Speaker 1: I would like to know. Yeah, I would too, I
Speaker 1: would too. I mean, I think it's really tricky because
Speaker 1: my when you're a kid and you ask questions, like
Speaker 1: regardless of whether when came from a spiritual household or not,
Speaker 1: you ask questions, and I know as a parent, you
Speaker 1: endeavor to answer that question no matter what it is.
Speaker 1: You try and find an answer yeah, I'm so aware
Speaker 1: of how little I've gone. I don't know, Like I
Speaker 1: felt like it was such a cop out and wanted
Speaker 1: to offer something up that. I think it's really interesting
Speaker 1: that kids in a way have to share the certainty
Speaker 1: of their parents answers, and maybe those questions go back
Speaker 1: to being questions and you don't have an answer for
Speaker 1: them totally. It's such a funny thing, Like things I
Speaker 1: thought I was sure about, I realized it was just
Speaker 1: my parents gave me that answer because they were my parents.
Speaker 1: I feel like all these big questions happened late at night,
Speaker 1: it's like dark outside and things start to feel a
Speaker 1: little bit scarier, and you ask these questions that are
Speaker 1: going to be in your head, you know, or in
Speaker 1: your dreams or whatever to your parents, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: how much of it was them putting on a brave
Speaker 1: face and filling the silence and wanting to be a
Speaker 1: pillar for me and say, yeah, this is this is
Speaker 1: the answer to this, probably, you know, like being an
Speaker 1: adult now and knowing how much I'd say I don't know.
Speaker 1: That was also their way of loving me. They wanted
Speaker 1: to give an answer to help me probably just be
Speaker 1: able to rest my head and go to bed false asleep,
Speaker 1: like when you see a little child's face going, what
Speaker 1: happens when you die? Oh? Like you really? You know,
Speaker 1: I've leaned pretty hard into clouds in heaven. I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna lie. I did a lot of that face with
Speaker 1: this little face staring up from the dinosaur duve. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, it happens when you die. Mom, Oh darling, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's lovely. Don't worry. It's so lovely, you know. And
Speaker 1: he never questioned me, And then like obviously now you
Speaker 1: know we have these conversations. It's really it's interesting. But
Speaker 1: I want to know that too. Also feel like maybe
Speaker 1: there's a reason that we just don't because life wouldn't
Speaker 1: resonate in the way that it did if we were like,
Speaker 1: it'll be fine, and I give a funk, it's fine.
Speaker 1: There's so many people that I grew up with who
Speaker 1: act like that because of the certitude and what they
Speaker 1: think and know to be true, where it's like, what,
Speaker 1: there is a heaven and the afterlife is where it's at,
Speaker 1: and that don't sweat it in this life if it's
Speaker 1: not going your way. Yeah. The way that they treat
Speaker 1: people as a result of that it's like to me
Speaker 1: or the earth or whatever it is, it's like, how
Speaker 1: is this okay to you? Seeing that? Observing that that
Speaker 1: started to just make me kind of like question, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like, we are existing now, Why are we pretending
Speaker 1: like we understand that it's going to be taken care
Speaker 1: of later, or that we shouldn't be thoughtful about these
Speaker 1: issues that are happening now, or that we shouldn't be
Speaker 1: attentive to our neighbors or whatever. It's like, I just
Speaker 1: felt like such an oxymoron to me to like claim
Speaker 1: to be a Christian and to then move through the
Speaker 1: world that way. But you know, that's a whole other conversation.
Speaker 1: But I feel now like in my life, when the
Speaker 1: words I don't know come out of my mouth, I
Speaker 1: feel a sense of relief. It's like releasing this pressure
Speaker 1: that I have to maybe feel like I need the
Speaker 1: answers for everything, and to just be like, actually, that's
Speaker 1: not for me to decide, it's not for me to say,
Speaker 1: and that's okay. Yeah, it's it's liberating. Do you find
Speaker 1: that with songwriting? I found that a little bit. What
Speaker 1: if I was stuck and I genuinely didn't know what
Speaker 1: that verse was, or what that chorus or what was
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing. I would say out loud, I
Speaker 1: don't know, and then I will go and do something else.
Speaker 1: And it was invariably, necessarily always, but I would say
Speaker 1: about nine at the time in doing that other thing,
Speaker 1: whether it was going for a walk, going for stuff,
Speaker 1: going to the supermarket, that the idea or the link
Speaker 1: the bridge would come, or the idea of the lyrics.
Speaker 1: I think there's massive freedom and I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: the key maybe, and there's sometimes answers like you can't
Speaker 1: guarantee that, but like in the action of saying I
Speaker 1: don't know and then going for a surf or going
Speaker 1: on a walk, some of those say they're like as
Speaker 1: simple as lyrical questions sort themselves out where you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's the end of the verse. All of my favorite
Speaker 1: writers have such strict regiments. They don't only prioritize writing,
Speaker 1: they prioritize not writing as well, And that them is
Speaker 1: like a part of it, you know, Yeah, that's brilliant,
Speaker 1: and that is so true. And I think even like
Speaker 1: with writing anything, or maybe even with challenges as a whole,
Speaker 1: the idea of leave it alone, like step away from
Speaker 1: that and allow the sort of now of discover rate
Speaker 1: as opposed to just staying in the certainty of I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think it can actually be incredibly liberating.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. It's in the other stuff. The creativity
Speaker 1: is in the other stuff, as well as the sitting
Speaker 1: there with the guitar or at the piano exactly yet.
Speaker 1: To use an audio example, it's like some of the
Speaker 1: biggest sounds are made from the lightest touch. You can
Speaker 1: use that in writing. It's like we want to put
Speaker 1: our heavy hand on it because we want product, we
Speaker 1: want things to be finished an instant, when it's like
Speaker 1: sometimes we just have to like lighten up on our
Speaker 1: touch of the song and let it just grow. I
Speaker 1: feel like songs are like living things that if you
Speaker 1: give it the right amount of water and sunlight and attention,
Speaker 1: they will they will grow. I was writing over the
Speaker 1: Pandemic with Gary light Body, who's a really old friend
Speaker 1: of mine and a beautiful songwriter, and we were sending
Speaker 1: each other you know, so he literally did he just
Speaker 1: sit there with the guitar and like he'd figure something out.
Speaker 1: Then he sent it to me and then I play it,
Speaker 1: and then I change some of the lyrics and I'd
Speaker 1: send it back to him, but it's like each time,
Speaker 1: and then maybe we'd have like voice notes in between
Speaker 1: where he'd be like, I don't know about that? What
Speaker 1: did you mean by that lyric? Like what did you
Speaker 1: mean about that? Linking us back into the thing. And
Speaker 1: it was so funny being in his I don't know
Speaker 1: and then like playing around in that and then vice versa.
Speaker 1: It was so beautiful because that it was an exchange
Speaker 1: of I don't know what this is, or I think
Speaker 1: it might be this, but I'm not attached to it,
Speaker 1: so you can change it. And we wrote like that,
Speaker 1: and there's something really cool about that because it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be anything. And you're right, it does create itself.
Speaker 1: It's the statue inside the block of marble, the Michael
Speaker 1: and the idea. It reveals itself. You just sort of
Speaker 1: chip away. Yeah, I mean it sounds like also in
Speaker 1: the exercise. What's so beautiful about that when you're writing
Speaker 1: with someone else is like, you can't afford to be
Speaker 1: too precious or egotistical about when your ideas are questioned.
Speaker 1: It's really actually just a question of wanting to understand.
Speaker 1: It's not like someone put it once, it was like,
Speaker 1: I try not to take criticism personal because it's not
Speaker 1: me that they're criticizing. It's just an idea, which is
Speaker 1: like we don't do a good job, or at least
Speaker 1: I don't of separating myself from an idea because if
Speaker 1: someone doesn't like it, I'm like, then I can't produce
Speaker 1: anything else. It's I'm the problem. And it's like, that's
Speaker 1: not true. You're just the conduit for an idea and
Speaker 1: don't like let yourself become too like entangled with it.
Speaker 1: But I think what's so beautiful about that exercises like
Speaker 1: you guys were allowing yourself to ask like I don't
Speaker 1: know what this means, and you could either be like,
Speaker 1: oh it means this, or you could return it with it.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's malluable. Yeah. Also practicing having
Speaker 1: that thrown at you like I don't like that and
Speaker 1: it's your idea and I have to go that that
Speaker 1: doesn't feel okay, and then you have to go through
Speaker 1: that process of going, well, so what if that were true?
Speaker 1: So so now if I look at this song or
Speaker 1: this piece of rising from the point of view of
Speaker 1: this person that I love and value they don't like
Speaker 1: this thing, okay, so what is that and then like
Speaker 1: going and examining it and going, oh, maybe I was
Speaker 1: just attached to it because it was the only idea
Speaker 1: that I had, and I wanted to send him something
Speaker 1: back to show that I can do this, like at
Speaker 1: the same level as you, which is ridiculous because he's
Speaker 1: been writing songs and many more songs than I ever have.
Speaker 1: It was interesting, like interrogating the ego of someone I
Speaker 1: respect doesn't like my idea, and then you couldn't take
Speaker 1: it personally because they weren't there. You just have to
Speaker 1: kind of figure it out and write another idea and
Speaker 1: then go, okay, well that also works and is maybe
Speaker 1: beautiful totally. I think it's cool writing in lots of
Speaker 1: different ways, and it also creates an opportunity for you
Speaker 1: to respond in two different ways. Either you like are
Speaker 1: offended by it and you shut down and then no
Speaker 1: ideas come, or you allowed to be this like moment
Speaker 1: of faith where you're like, oh, I can do more,
Speaker 1: I can do better, and I will exactly and maybe
Speaker 1: it will be better. Or maybe it's also just like
Speaker 1: there's there are loads of ideas. It's cool you don't
Speaker 1: just have one idea. I always get very attached to
Speaker 1: that same where and when were you happiest? I loved
Speaker 1: this question because it was a little bit sad to me.
Speaker 1: That took me so long to think about it. It's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: am I not happy on a day to day basis?
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I think it's kind of a
Speaker 1: two part answer, if that's cool. During the pandemic, some
Speaker 1: of our best friends and I and my husband, we
Speaker 1: all drove up to Montana and there's just one moment
Speaker 1: where we drove up to Glacier and we we blew
Speaker 1: up all these inner tubes and we started at this
Speaker 1: stream head and just floated down the stream and there's
Speaker 1: this one section where the water was so blue and
Speaker 1: so deep you couldn't see the bottom. And I remember
Speaker 1: just like instinctively grabbing onto a rock, throwing my inner tube,
Speaker 1: and then just diving as far as I could, And
Speaker 1: I like, I never do that. I rarely have a
Speaker 1: fear of water, but I just like I felt fearless
Speaker 1: and happy, and also like literally in that moment, no
Speaker 1: one could reach me, no one could ask me questions.
Speaker 1: It just I felt completely liberated and I felt like
Speaker 1: just a person, and like all the other things that
Speaker 1: you sort of let make up who you are felt
Speaker 1: unimportant in that moment, just from being in nature and
Speaker 1: from shutting off my phone. Things as simple as that
Speaker 1: that made me feel truly happy. God, I so can
Speaker 1: imagine that. I mean, I'm sitting here in London and
Speaker 1: I dream of the water in all forms, particularly the ocean,
Speaker 1: all the time, and I just so saw that pool
Speaker 1: of what I love a physical trigger of happiness. It's
Speaker 1: often other people that around the circumstances, like just in
Speaker 1: asking this question that trigger happiness, yeah, or moments from childhood.
Speaker 1: But I love that idea of nature triggering real, true
Speaker 1: happiness because I feel that is absolutely my happiest place
Speaker 1: in the world is out in the ocean, surfing, being
Speaker 1: able to see my son on the beach totally and
Speaker 1: it's so innocent. It's like the moments where it just
Speaker 1: feels so uncomplicated for a second, they're like, Oh, all
Speaker 1: that matters right now is just like the way the
Speaker 1: water feels and catching this wave or whatever. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't sadly go to those moments often enough,
Speaker 1: or I don't make space for them because there's just
Speaker 1: so much you know day to day. My friend calls
Speaker 1: them techno realities, which are just these little things that
Speaker 1: you get lost in that sometimes cause you to forget
Speaker 1: what's important and what you love about your life. It's
Speaker 1: so weird because I was just having this conversation with
Speaker 1: my boyfriend the other day. I was like, what is
Speaker 1: this charis in between the self awareness of things that
Speaker 1: will make our lives better and the actual doing of them.
Speaker 1: You know how that feels. I know how that feels,
Speaker 1: and yet actually going and seeking it out. It's almost
Speaker 1: like we slump into that techno reality, or we slump
Speaker 1: into it going wow, this is just life. This is
Speaker 1: just what it is. I've got to sit in front
Speaker 1: of my computer for five hours and answer emails or
Speaker 1: do this thing. I think we've got to fight harder
Speaker 1: to carve out that other space because I know, we
Speaker 1: know that's where the creativity and the freedom comes from. Well,
Speaker 1: and the people that I think who display that the
Speaker 1: most are like in sort of business terms, are always
Speaker 1: deemed as like flaky or just like non responsive, but
Speaker 1: they're actually the most tapped in. And that's not the
Speaker 1: case for every flakey person. Quote unquote. But those creatives
Speaker 1: that don't answer emails or don't it's like I know
Speaker 1: that they're somewhere creating, or they're on a walk, or
Speaker 1: they're doing the things that matter, and it's like who
Speaker 1: cares about the rest? I know emails matter, Like if
Speaker 1: I didn't answer my email, this wouldn't have happened today.
Speaker 1: So that's important to me, you know. But also it's
Speaker 1: just like I think you're right. Instinctively, we know where
Speaker 1: to return to, but we don't. It's always like last
Speaker 1: resort or something. Yeah, I think again. It is just
Speaker 1: like insisting on drawing the lines of engagement with life,
Speaker 1: you know, of going okay, well it's going to be
Speaker 1: this for this amount of time. But I'm just talking
Speaker 1: from my I suppose from my own perspective, which is
Speaker 1: one gets lazy and then you don't realize that you've
Speaker 1: sort of been bludgeoned by all of the social contracts
Speaker 1: and all of the stuff. But it doesn't really take much.
Speaker 1: That's what's great. Like I can just walk up to
Speaker 1: the park from where I live in London, and that's
Speaker 1: where my mother used to say, that's where the city breeds.
Speaker 1: And it's true, like you go there and these ancient
Speaker 1: trees and it's pretty wonderful, but you have to go
Speaker 1: do it right. You have to do it. No one
Speaker 1: is going to tell you that you need that break
Speaker 1: except for yourself. Like I've I've learned that a lot
Speaker 1: where it's like, you know, if it weren't for me
Speaker 1: at times putting my foot down, I don't think anyone
Speaker 1: would tell me, hey, you should stop, or like you
Speaker 1: should take a break. Like it's like there's a machine
Speaker 1: that's running and no one really wants to shut it down. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's true, particularly if you're generating income for them. I've
Speaker 1: also found that it's like, you know, it's like yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I'm you're right, I got to do that too. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean it's also attached to morals to where I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, all these people are relying on me.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do anyone wrong that way. And then it's
Speaker 1: like there is a certain point of honesty that you
Speaker 1: reach where you're like, but the way that I feel
Speaker 1: now isn't helping anyone really, you know, like I have
Speaker 1: to have to succumb to something in your life. Can
Speaker 1: you tell me about something that has grown out of
Speaker 1: a personal disaster. M This is another one of those
Speaker 1: questions that I thought about for a couple of days.
Speaker 1: I did my research, and I went and listened to
Speaker 1: this podcast beforehand, and that one got me because I thought,
Speaker 1: I'm twenty five at the moment, and there's the potential
Speaker 1: that some of my worst personal disasters are ahead of me.
Speaker 1: Oh you're so not wrong, which is like dark Now,
Speaker 1: it's great, It's really true. You can confirm you're coming
Speaker 1: at me from literally years older than you. Oh my god, No,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. It's gonna be great because she's
Speaker 1: going to grow out of it. But unfortunately, this is
Speaker 1: the gift that keeps on giving, like you don't stop
Speaker 1: having personal disasters, like it's just you know, you start
Speaker 1: keeping a tally. It's a relief to me in a
Speaker 1: certain way, though, because the more that I've talked to
Speaker 1: people who are older than me or have just lived
Speaker 1: more life, the idea of like, oh it just kind
Speaker 1: of stays hard makes me feel like there's nothing more
Speaker 1: that I should be doing to make it easier. It's like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: good that this isn't on me. This is just life
Speaker 1: coming at me. But I would say the most recent
Speaker 1: thing that I can name it was the experience of
Speaker 1: making the album that just came out on September nine.
Speaker 1: It was so deeply difficult for me, I think because
Speaker 1: I just felt so disconnected from myself and from the process.
Speaker 1: I just was like paralyzed, I think from pressure. And again,
Speaker 1: so much of it, I think was I was responsible
Speaker 1: for so much of the pressure. Was I was putting
Speaker 1: on myself unduly, you know, But from my label and
Speaker 1: from from management to it was just like, this has
Speaker 1: to be like really remarkable work. Otherwise who knows in
Speaker 1: this fragile place that the industry was in, And it's
Speaker 1: like the one time that I felt like everybody who
Speaker 1: was on the inside couldn't speak for how it would
Speaker 1: look or what it would be. All they could say
Speaker 1: was it just has to be amazing. And again that's
Speaker 1: that's not me faulting anyone. It's just I was also
Speaker 1: making this, writing this in so it was already a disaster. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that was the scariest thing to me. I
Speaker 1: felt like I was like a little foodsball on a
Speaker 1: foods table that like anything that anyone said could have
Speaker 1: like just shot me in the other direction. So I
Speaker 1: feel like my compass was gone so the whole time,
Speaker 1: to me, that felt like a disaster, and trying to
Speaker 1: make music from that place, I just I like rerecorded
Speaker 1: songs so many times because it just didn't feel right.
Speaker 1: I just felt like it was reaching all that to
Speaker 1: say as that was kind of happening. My grandma died,
Speaker 1: who I was really close to, and you know, grief
Speaker 1: tends to do that thing, which I learned because that
Speaker 1: was the first person who I was ever close to
Speaker 1: that I lost. Grief as this thing that gives you
Speaker 1: this hyperclarity, even if it's just for a short time,
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, literally, only these two things matter,
Speaker 1: that's all I can give importance to. And for me,
Speaker 1: it was like family and love and loving people well,
Speaker 1: and that was it, and like music being out of
Speaker 1: the equation, there just was a relief for a minute
Speaker 1: because I was like, I've been putting so much pressure
Speaker 1: on this and on myself and it's turned into this
Speaker 1: thing that I'm so afraid to look at in the eye.
Speaker 1: And what was so beautiful about that is there was
Speaker 1: a song that I wrote about her, It's called Life
Speaker 1: according to Rachel, that came out of that and it
Speaker 1: felt like that sort of purity of thought, love and
Speaker 1: family sort of came through the music. And what was
Speaker 1: so cool about is like I released it thinking this
Speaker 1: is such a specific song about my grandmother and losing her,
Speaker 1: Like I think it's just going to be for me,
Speaker 1: and so many people have been able to attach their
Speaker 1: story in their life through that song, which has just
Speaker 1: been like so overwhelming and mind blowing to me. And again,
Speaker 1: it's like one of those things that I think it
Speaker 1: was really just because there was like no ego around
Speaker 1: a song like that, There was no room to try
Speaker 1: and be impressive in the music. It was just like confessional.
Speaker 1: It talks about the guilt that you feel when you
Speaker 1: lose someone that you didn't do it enough or be
Speaker 1: all those things that you deal with. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: think and obviously the record is finished and I'm proud
Speaker 1: of it, but that was one of those moments where
Speaker 1: I was like, how do I avoid going through that
Speaker 1: again in my life, even though I see such good
Speaker 1: that that came out of it. But you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: you come across these situations where you're like there is
Speaker 1: literally nowhere around this but through, and so you just
Speaker 1: kind of strap in and hope for the best. That's
Speaker 1: so amazing, and I'm so glad that you. I'm not
Speaker 1: glad you lost your grandmother, But to experience the clarity
Speaker 1: and the clarifying nature of grief is it's an extraordinary privilege,
Speaker 1: and it is a really beautiful, strange moment in a
Speaker 1: person's life. And to be able to be creative, to
Speaker 1: be able to use that and harness that because that, really,
Speaker 1: to me is what that is, is harnessing that energy
Speaker 1: and turning it into something else. But I'll tell you
Speaker 1: something that my dad said to me when I was
Speaker 1: heartbroken over this guy that I loved so much, and really,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm actually must have been your age, and
Speaker 1: I thought that I was going to marry him and
Speaker 1: I loved him, and he just broken up with me.
Speaker 1: And I stood up all night and I've been smoking
Speaker 1: cigarettes and drinking coffee, and I was sitting outside our
Speaker 1: house and my dad was going through this phase of
Speaker 1: I think I've told the story before, but I'm going
Speaker 1: to tell that again because it's pertinent. And my dad
Speaker 1: went through this phase where he would go out jogging
Speaker 1: in the morning and it lasted for like three weeks,
Speaker 1: but it was during this time, he came out with
Speaker 1: his towel around his neck and he was sort of
Speaker 1: jogging and he had his toweling head band on and
Speaker 1: he was like he was like, oh, have you been
Speaker 1: up all night? And I was like, yeah, and I'm
Speaker 1: so unhappy. I'm so sad. You've been up all night
Speaker 1: just crying and smoking and drinking coffee. And he was like,
Speaker 1: over a chap, is it? And I was like, yes,
Speaker 1: it's the love of my life. And my dad was like,
Speaker 1: do you want me to tell you something that you're
Speaker 1: not going to want to hear? And I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I mean not really, but and he was like, you're
Speaker 1: going to feel this way about someone else. So I
Speaker 1: will say to you, Madison, you were going to feel
Speaker 1: this way about other records. How however, you're also going
Speaker 1: to feel that it's easy and beautiful and simple and
Speaker 1: the way that maybe you love your husband you have
Speaker 1: that relationship. It's all of it, and it will be
Speaker 1: all of it if we're lucky, hundreds of times over.
Speaker 1: But I understand the brutality of being in that moment
Speaker 1: where it's just so painful and the process has just
Speaker 1: been really, really difficult, And even though you're proud of
Speaker 1: the thing that comes out at the end it's Gnarlie,
Speaker 1: and then you know they'll be that experience again. I'm
Speaker 1: sure you're going to write so many more records and
Speaker 1: you're I'm sure have it for maybe other different reasons.
Speaker 1: You know, you'll have kids running around and you won't
Speaker 1: be all of fucking focus and it'll be like, I'm
Speaker 1: losing my mind and I've got to finish this record. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: This goes back again to kind of what we said
Speaker 1: at the beginning. It's like, you know, noticing when it's
Speaker 1: hard and taking steps to kind of alleviate that, and
Speaker 1: sometimes you can't and you just have to go through
Speaker 1: it being hard. Someone said to me during that time,
Speaker 1: and a similar thing that your dad said, but she
Speaker 1: kind of was like, you know, the beauty of the
Speaker 1: is she goes, it's just gonna get harder, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't see beauty in that, but she
Speaker 1: was saying, like the reality is and where you can
Speaker 1: find beauty also is that you're going to lose more
Speaker 1: people that you love. This is the beginning, but it's
Speaker 1: also the beginning of more clarity and love in your life,
Speaker 1: and that can feel morbid, like a morbid idea. But
Speaker 1: grief is such a human thing. It's such a human idea,
Speaker 1: and it's it's things that we don't love to talk about,
Speaker 1: but I find it so important, whether that be you know,
Speaker 1: grieving the loss of a relationship or like actually loving
Speaker 1: losing someone. That all has a place, and it's sadly inevitable.
Speaker 1: Like I guess sometimes I'm like, there's no romantic way
Speaker 1: to really view this. It's just sad, that's it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's also okay. Yeah, it's also okay. Exactly. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it is it is just sad and it is just hard,
Speaker 1: and that's okay, and like we get through it, you
Speaker 1: get back to the glacier and the inner tube. Yes.
Speaker 1: So what quality do you like, at least about yourself? Oh? Man,
Speaker 1: probably how non confrontational I am. I I run from
Speaker 1: it at every corner, and I think there's this desire
Speaker 1: in me to be diplomatic and a peacemaker, and that's
Speaker 1: a good quality. But the unhealth of it is when
Speaker 1: it's like avoiding things purely because they're hard and uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: not because they're bad, if that makes sense. It's like
Speaker 1: some confrontation is necessary and good, and I hate to
Speaker 1: see the way that like my non confrontational side will
Speaker 1: possibly hurt somebody. So I work. I work on that,
Speaker 1: I try to. I'm not good with the hard confrontations.
Speaker 1: There's also this deep fear in myself that I have
Speaker 1: that I don't know how to articulate something well, especially
Speaker 1: when nervous. It's weird. I mean, I'm a I'm a songwriter.
Speaker 1: I deal with lyrics, love lyrics, but I have time
Speaker 1: to sort through that. But when I'm face to face
Speaker 1: with someone and there's conflict or something, and I always
Speaker 1: feel this immense pressure that I don't have what it
Speaker 1: takes to actually like solve it at the moment. I
Speaker 1: don't know where that comes from. I don't know if
Speaker 1: like there's something in my childhood or I know my
Speaker 1: dad is very non confrontational. Not to blame him for
Speaker 1: my own qualities, but you know it's like sometimes you
Speaker 1: inherit those those traits from your parents. Yeah you do.
Speaker 1: It's what's it cool? It's called epigenetics. Is I want
Speaker 1: the emotional stuff that you inherit. I didn't know that name.
Speaker 1: That's helpful. Yeah, yeah, blame dad, I said one time
Speaker 1: to a friend. I was like, how long can I
Speaker 1: blame my parents for things? And they're like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe don't blame them for things. Just maybe take
Speaker 1: responsibility for as much as you can. And then it's
Speaker 1: like a really delicate balance. I know it is. I'm
Speaker 1: always asking my son. I'm like, is this damaging you?
Speaker 1: Is the stamaging you? How about this is the sdamaging you?
Speaker 1: What about this? Wait? Hold on, let me just stop crying.
Speaker 1: Is the damaging you? The poor kid? But honestly, I've
Speaker 1: just like, listen, I will be able to recommend you
Speaker 1: a good therapist. I think our parents do. They gave
Speaker 1: us all these things that are wonderful and all these
Speaker 1: things that are terrible, because that's also the gift. I guess, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: I guess so. I mean the gift of being able
Speaker 1: to question yourself and everything. You know, I love that gift.
Speaker 1: But like that must be hard as a parent, and
Speaker 1: turned to tow then like to go, I know There's
Speaker 1: gonna be a point in time where I'm going to
Speaker 1: hurt you. Is that now? Like? Have I done it yet?
Speaker 1: You know? That must be like you're holding your breath exactly,
Speaker 1: And unfortunately it's unavoidable, like you are going to do that.
Speaker 1: And again, it does seem to come around to self
Speaker 1: awareness that, like as with anything, the minute, won't can
Speaker 1: identify that you've done something that is difficult for another
Speaker 1: person to metabolize calling it out and saying I, oh,
Speaker 1: I did this and I'm really sorry, or I did
Speaker 1: this and this because of this or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: I do think that kind of mitigation helps. Interesting that
Speaker 1: you're a songwriter and that you I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that's really I think it's really cool. I wonder if
Speaker 1: that's just like, in addition to the sort of being
Speaker 1: rarely creative, it's also where of being able to work
Speaker 1: through that and deal with it and go, no, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I can write about it, and I can
Speaker 1: articulate it. I can articulate it actually really really well
Speaker 1: and put it to music. Right. Well, yeah, I guess,
Speaker 1: I guess those fears are always at the beginning of
Speaker 1: writing songs too. Yeah. I always have this hesitation or
Speaker 1: this worry that I'm going to forget how to do
Speaker 1: it or not going to be able to do it
Speaker 1: in a way that will mean anything to anyone, or
Speaker 1: that anyone can understand, you know, because I think I
Speaker 1: love ambiguity. It's I find it very sexy, and I
Speaker 1: love people who are very mysterious. And there's the part
Speaker 1: of me that just wants that to be what my
Speaker 1: music is. And then there's another half of me that's like,
Speaker 1: but I really want to be understood. Yeah, Like I
Speaker 1: want people to know where I'm coming from and to
Speaker 1: get the picture of me so they can hear me
Speaker 1: when I speak. You know, it's a funny balance. That's
Speaker 1: so funny. I always really wanted to be mysterious, but like, nah,
Speaker 1: that ship sailed. I think that's a whole other lifetime.
Speaker 1: But I know, I know exactly what you mean about.
Speaker 1: I think it's really good to be able to articulate stuff.
Speaker 1: I think that's also speaks to the creative process with
Speaker 1: everything anyone who's creative, Like the minute you when you're
Speaker 1: beginning something, we just have absolutely no idea how you're
Speaker 1: going to do it again, Like how are you going
Speaker 1: to do this? How is it going to happen? How
Speaker 1: is this song going to be written, this book going
Speaker 1: to be written, this play, movie, TV show be made?
Speaker 1: Like it's mysterious, that is mysterious. Yeah, one. The actual
Speaker 1: art of songwriting will forever be mysterious. It's like it's unattainable.
Speaker 1: If we all knew where it began and where it ended,
Speaker 1: we would just stay in those places, but we don't exactly.
Speaker 1: It's constantly moving. So what relationship, real or fictionalized, defines
Speaker 1: love for you? I feel like the people in my
Speaker 1: life who have defined love for me are the ones
Speaker 1: who have loved me through every phase of my life. Um,
Speaker 1: and he liked me even And I would say, my sister,
Speaker 1: I'm the oldest of five girls. Yeah, I know, it's
Speaker 1: it's sometimes I don't realize how crazy that is until
Speaker 1: I see a picture of all five of us together
Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is a lot of kids. But
Speaker 1: my younger sister and I we've always been inseparable since
Speaker 1: I saw her when I was two years old and
Speaker 1: she was just born, like we always have had a bond.
Speaker 1: And she's just one of those people where it's like
Speaker 1: I always kind of test her and bring things that
Speaker 1: I think this is too ugly for anyone to hear.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna tell you. And she never bats and
Speaker 1: I she's always just like, oh yeah, I have those
Speaker 1: same thoughts, and I feel like she has shown me
Speaker 1: love in ways that so many of my friendships and
Speaker 1: people that I've leaned on have failed to. And maybe
Speaker 1: it's a blood related thing, but I don't know. She's
Speaker 1: just kind of one of those people for me that
Speaker 1: I lean on and know that I'll be seen I
Speaker 1: kind of no matter what. My husband is also that
Speaker 1: person for me. He this is such a rare thing
Speaker 1: and not everybody's story, but I've known him since I
Speaker 1: was thirteen. We met then, and you know, it was
Speaker 1: never romantic. We were always just really really good friends,
Speaker 1: and he was always one of those people for me
Speaker 1: that I thought, it doesn't get better than Austin as
Speaker 1: far as character goes. He's the coolest person I know,
Speaker 1: or the best person I know. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I thought he was the coolest at the time that
Speaker 1: became apparent later. He just was kind of one of
Speaker 1: those people that was just sort of a lynch pin
Speaker 1: in my life, someone who just saw me from age
Speaker 1: thirteen to now, which is a long span of time
Speaker 1: and how many turns a person can sort of take.
Speaker 1: We ended up dating when he was a junior in college.
Speaker 1: I was a couple of years younger than him. I
Speaker 1: didn't go to college, but I moved to l A
Speaker 1: and decided to pursue music, and the endeavor of that
Speaker 1: was so much more intense than I expected. And it's
Speaker 1: definitely tested me in so many ways as a person,
Speaker 1: for better and for worse. And I think he's kind
Speaker 1: of been there and seeing all of it, but still
Speaker 1: has like just been there to kind of scoop me up,
Speaker 1: to hold me kind of at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: and has never like his love hasn't wavered in the
Speaker 1: midst of all of that. So do you think that
Speaker 1: being seen because you said that about your sister and
Speaker 1: this and about your husband, Like, is that really important?
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it's really important. That's not what I meant,
Speaker 1: I actually meant. Do you think that that is sort
Speaker 1: of extends into the part of the crux of why
Speaker 1: you do what you do? Is that notion of reflection
Speaker 1: and visibility? Maybe in a subconscious way it is, like
Speaker 1: it's funny. As a songwriter, I've always said like, I
Speaker 1: don't know if I have anything to say, and then
Speaker 1: sometimes that will change where you're like, oh I do,
Speaker 1: Actually there's a song here, there's a statement that I
Speaker 1: want to make. But I go in and out of
Speaker 1: phases and feeling like I want to be seen in
Speaker 1: that way, in a public way, and times where I
Speaker 1: really really want to hide. And that probably fluctuates with
Speaker 1: the level of hardship that comes with it. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like the more responsibility you have, the more you
Speaker 1: crave the denial of it. That's at least been my experience.
Speaker 1: But I think just in my in my personal life, yeah,
Speaker 1: being seen is the most important thing to me. Even
Speaker 1: if that means someone is seeing the worst parts of me,
Speaker 1: I want them in on that. I want them to
Speaker 1: know that that's really cool. I like that. Madison, thank
Speaker 1: you so much. It's been so great. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: your time and all your thoughts. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you many. This was just the honor of lifetime.
Speaker 1: So thanks for having me. You're very, very welcome. You
Speaker 1: can find Madison's album Revealer out now wherever you get
Speaker 1: your chance, and give the song life. According to Rachel,
Speaker 1: the song she told us about today, the one about
Speaker 1: her grandmother. An extra spin Many Questions is hosted and
Speaker 1: written by me Mini Driver supervising producer Aaron Kauffman, Producer
Speaker 1: Morgan Levoy, Research Assistant Marissa Brown. Original music Sorry Baby
Speaker 1: by a Mini Driver, Additional music by Aaron Kaufman. Executive
Speaker 1: produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks to Jim Nikolay,
Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Addison No Day, Lisa Castella and Nick Oppenheim
Speaker 1: at w kPr, de La Pescador, Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg,
Speaker 1: and for constantly solicited tech support Henry Driver,