1
00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,520
Speaker 1: What is orange wine? I know nothing about wines. Don't worry.

2
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,319
Speaker 1: I'm very interested to know about your nothing. What is

3
00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,560
Speaker 1: orange wine? Because that sounds really weird and good? Is

4
00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:23,919
Speaker 1: it like Fanta? Do you mean fanta? Crazy? Sweet and carbonated?

5
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,439
Speaker 1: And my dad needs to say this was wine and

6
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,640
Speaker 1: it's orange, so you know it's it's phantom medicine. You

7
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:36,760
Speaker 1: ever heard of high See? Hello, I'm Mini driver. Welcome

8
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,160
Speaker 1: to Many Questions Season two. I've always loved Pruce's question.

9
00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,839
Speaker 1: It was originally a nineteenth century parlor game where players

10
00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,240
Speaker 1: would ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing

11
00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,640
Speaker 1: the other player's true nature. It's just the scientific method really.

12
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,160
Speaker 1: In asking different people the same set of questions, you

13
00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,520
Speaker 1: can make observations about which truths appeared to me universal.

14
00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,399
Speaker 1: I love this discipline, and it made me wonder, what

15
00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,200
Speaker 1: if these questions were just the jumping off point, what

16
00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,679
Speaker 1: greater depths would be revealed if I ask these questions

17
00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,080
Speaker 1: as conversation starters with thought leaders and trailblazers across all

18
00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,679
Speaker 1: these different disciplines. So I adapted prus questionnaire and I

19
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,440
Speaker 1: wrote my own seven questions that I personally think a

20
00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,680
Speaker 1: pertinent to a person's story. They are, when and where

21
00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,559
Speaker 1: were you happiest? What is the quality you like least

22
00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:32,080
Speaker 1: about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?

23
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,160
Speaker 1: What question would you most like answered? What person, place,

24
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 1: or experience has shaped you the most? What would be

25
00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,840
Speaker 1: your last meal? And can you tell me something in

26
00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,560
Speaker 1: your life that's grown out of a personal disaster? And

27
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,040
Speaker 1: I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that

28
00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 1: I am honored and humbled to have had the chance

29
00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,240
Speaker 1: to engage with. You may not hear their answers to

30
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,640
Speaker 1: all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to

31
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,080
Speaker 1: which questions closest to their experience or the most surprising,

32
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,280
Speaker 1: or created the most fertile ground to connect. My guest

33
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:14,160
Speaker 1: today is musician and songwriter Madison Cunningham at She is

34
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,440
Speaker 1: one of the youngest guests I've had on my show,

35
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,280
Speaker 1: but you wouldn't know it from the wisdom and sort

36
00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,360
Speaker 1: of old soulness that radiates not only through the lyrics

37
00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,640
Speaker 1: she writes, but also in the way she speaks. Whether

38
00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,359
Speaker 1: she's performing solo or sharing the stage with some of

39
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:35,160
Speaker 1: folk music's biggest names. Madison's musical talents are really not

40
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,679
Speaker 1: to be missed. I love hearing a songwriter describe the

41
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,080
Speaker 1: world in their own words, and it was delightful hearing

42
00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,680
Speaker 1: Madison's perspective on my questions. I've really hope you enjoy

43
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 1: our lovely conversation. What person, place, or experience most altered

44
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,440
Speaker 1: your life? I would say music has been the thing.

45
00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,920
Speaker 1: I think touring the country and the world was the

46
00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,360
Speaker 1: thing that very much challenged my worldview and my line

47
00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,440
Speaker 1: of thinking because I was immediately met with or I

48
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,200
Speaker 1: should say, my opinions were met with experiences, and that

49
00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,760
Speaker 1: changes everything. You can have thoughts about the way you

50
00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 1: think life should be or the way you've known it

51
00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,560
Speaker 1: to be with them. When you like actually experienced life

52
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,120
Speaker 1: and open yourself up to other people's experiences, your opinions

53
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,160
Speaker 1: on things drastically changed. And I remember the first tour

54
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,799
Speaker 1: I ever did. I was opening for Chris Thealy and

55
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,440
Speaker 1: the Punch Brothers, and we both had a really similar background,

56
00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,160
Speaker 1: like both grew up in the church. We were both

57
00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,560
Speaker 1: homeschooled the whole way through, and I don't know many

58
00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,360
Speaker 1: people who had a similar story like that. We just

59
00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,120
Speaker 1: were talking on the bus and I just was asking

60
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 1: questions and I just will never forget one thing that

61
00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:47,960
Speaker 1: he said to me. He's like, you're twenty one now,

62
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,520
Speaker 1: and I was like yeah, and he was like, yeah,

63
00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 1: things are going to change for you. And he wasn't

64
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,960
Speaker 1: arrogant or like condescending or anything. It just was like

65
00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,960
Speaker 1: he was coming from a place of sincerely sympathizing with

66
00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,000
Speaker 1: me and going or empathizing maybe and being like, I

67
00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 1: know exactly what you're saying, and I understand it completely

68
00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,080
Speaker 1: and why you're asking these things, but also like it's

69
00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,040
Speaker 1: going to change for you. I just know it. And

70
00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 1: he was right like and I don't even remember exactly

71
00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,800
Speaker 1: what I asked him, but I remember the place that

72
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,680
Speaker 1: it was coming from. And I was very just fearful.

73
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,839
Speaker 1: I just I just was nervous and scared, and I

74
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,000
Speaker 1: felt I was experiencing impostor syndrome too. So I always

75
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,840
Speaker 1: say music in a way saved my life, and I

76
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 1: think made me the person that I am because it

77
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,719
Speaker 1: just immediately challenged me and caused me to open my

78
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,360
Speaker 1: eyes and touch the world in a different way. Did

79
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,680
Speaker 1: you write different music before music became your I don't

80
00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 1: want to use the word escape, but maybe your evolution

81
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,560
Speaker 1: out of that that first part of your life. Did

82
00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,960
Speaker 1: you write music while you were still within it? And

83
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,200
Speaker 1: then did you write your way out of it? Yes?

84
00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 1: And yes? And what was that music like? Like? Do

85
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:54,880
Speaker 1: you have recordings of it? Like? What was it like?

86
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,839
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm still very much that person. Always

87
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,240
Speaker 1: had a curiosity of like breaking musical rules. I really

88
00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,960
Speaker 1: really enjoyed that and just had a curiosity around that.

89
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,320
Speaker 1: But in terms of like writing, my lyrics were very

90
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,640
Speaker 1: stale and they didn't show anything. They just told everything.

91
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,760
Speaker 1: I have a bit of embarrassment around that phase of

92
00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,680
Speaker 1: writing that. There was a whole record that I did

93
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,600
Speaker 1: that had all of the songs on it, which has

94
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,560
Speaker 1: since been taken down, and again, like, musically I'm very

95
00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,640
Speaker 1: proud of that record, but thematically and lyrically, I just

96
00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,919
Speaker 1: felt that I was showing my age. I think I

97
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,360
Speaker 1: wrote my way out of it. Like I had a

98
00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,920
Speaker 1: friend who had sent me a book. Have you ever

99
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 1: read the book Writing Better Lyrics by Pat Pattinson? No,

100
00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,479
Speaker 1: Yeah you should. It's within the first three chapters you

101
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,640
Speaker 1: get his point and like that's just enough to change

102
00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:43,960
Speaker 1: you and to inspire you, and the rest of the

103
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 1: books great too. But he goes on this whole tangent

104
00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,120
Speaker 1: about object writing and sort of how to write from

105
00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,240
Speaker 1: your senses, and that really teaches you how to write

106
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,919
Speaker 1: in metaphor and to incorporate imagery and that phase. I

107
00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,000
Speaker 1: was probably eighteen when I read that book, and I

108
00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,560
Speaker 1: just remember that my writing started to take a turn

109
00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,839
Speaker 1: because I would think about those exercises and his whole

110
00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,680
Speaker 1: thing is like, you write on an object using your senses.

111
00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,040
Speaker 1: You write every day, but it can only be for

112
00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,520
Speaker 1: ten minutes, so when the timer goes off, you have

113
00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:14,720
Speaker 1: to be done. It doesn't matter if your thought was

114
00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,799
Speaker 1: finished or not. But it's all about teaching the brain

115
00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 1: to dive deeper in a shorter amount of time. So

116
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,719
Speaker 1: just when I did that and kind of went full

117
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,440
Speaker 1: force with that exercise, I really feel like that's when

118
00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,880
Speaker 1: I started to write songs that I was proud of

119
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,240
Speaker 1: and could like get behind. Now, Great, that's really cool.

120
00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,440
Speaker 1: I want to check that book out. It's incredible. I

121
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 1: mean from the first page or like just reading the

122
00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,840
Speaker 1: way that a writer writes, it's so inspiring. I think

123
00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:49,880
Speaker 1: you totally dig it. What question would you most like answered?

124
00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,120
Speaker 1: I think this is really on the nose, but I

125
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,560
Speaker 1: would love to know if there was an afterlife or not. Like,

126
00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if everybody feels that way, but for me,

127
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,560
Speaker 1: it's like that would maybe help things in terms of

128
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,359
Speaker 1: like the way that we grieve. It's like, well, we

129
00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 1: see that person again. I don't know. Did you have

130
00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 1: a spiritual upbringing? I totally did. I did. Yeah, And

131
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,240
Speaker 1: so much of my young adult life has been shedding

132
00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,720
Speaker 1: all of that but also coming back to it in

133
00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,200
Speaker 1: different ways that I can't sort of help. Like, I

134
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,040
Speaker 1: guess that question was planted in me as a kid,

135
00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:26,880
Speaker 1: but there was always an answer for it. There was

136
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,600
Speaker 1: always like, yes, there is there is the hope of that.

137
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 1: And now I still have that question, but don't feel

138
00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 1: like I have an answer. And there's a mystery to that.

139
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,720
Speaker 1: There's a mystery that I've become totally comfortable with. But

140
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,040
Speaker 1: I would like to know. Yeah, I would too, I

141
00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,560
Speaker 1: would too. I mean, I think it's really tricky because

142
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,160
Speaker 1: my when you're a kid and you ask questions, like

143
00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,680
Speaker 1: regardless of whether when came from a spiritual household or not,

144
00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,400
Speaker 1: you ask questions, and I know as a parent, you

145
00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 1: endeavor to answer that question no matter what it is.

146
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,880
Speaker 1: You try and find an answer yeah, I'm so aware

147
00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,320
Speaker 1: of how little I've gone. I don't know, Like I

148
00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 1: felt like it was such a cop out and wanted

149
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,280
Speaker 1: to offer something up that. I think it's really interesting

150
00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,400
Speaker 1: that kids in a way have to share the certainty

151
00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,160
Speaker 1: of their parents answers, and maybe those questions go back

152
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,840
Speaker 1: to being questions and you don't have an answer for

153
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,480
Speaker 1: them totally. It's such a funny thing, Like things I

154
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,440
Speaker 1: thought I was sure about, I realized it was just

155
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,120
Speaker 1: my parents gave me that answer because they were my parents.

156
00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,560
Speaker 1: I feel like all these big questions happened late at night,

157
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,080
Speaker 1: it's like dark outside and things start to feel a

158
00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,640
Speaker 1: little bit scarier, and you ask these questions that are

159
00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,400
Speaker 1: going to be in your head, you know, or in

160
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,440
Speaker 1: your dreams or whatever to your parents, And I'm like,

161
00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,720
Speaker 1: how much of it was them putting on a brave

162
00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,800
Speaker 1: face and filling the silence and wanting to be a

163
00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,880
Speaker 1: pillar for me and say, yeah, this is this is

164
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 1: the answer to this, probably, you know, like being an

165
00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 1: adult now and knowing how much I'd say I don't know.

166
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,080
Speaker 1: That was also their way of loving me. They wanted

167
00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:49,920
Speaker 1: to give an answer to help me probably just be

168
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,720
Speaker 1: able to rest my head and go to bed false asleep,

169
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,920
Speaker 1: like when you see a little child's face going, what

170
00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,440
Speaker 1: happens when you die? Oh? Like you really? You know,

171
00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:06,600
Speaker 1: I've leaned pretty hard into clouds in heaven. I'm not

172
00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,240
Speaker 1: gonna lie. I did a lot of that face with

173
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,560
Speaker 1: this little face staring up from the dinosaur duve. Oh

174
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:18,200
Speaker 1: my god, it happens when you die. Mom, Oh darling, Oh,

175
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:26,400
Speaker 1: it's lovely. Don't worry. It's so lovely, you know. And

176
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,640
Speaker 1: he never questioned me, And then like obviously now you

177
00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,320
Speaker 1: know we have these conversations. It's really it's interesting. But

178
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,360
Speaker 1: I want to know that too. Also feel like maybe

179
00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,000
Speaker 1: there's a reason that we just don't because life wouldn't

180
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,600
Speaker 1: resonate in the way that it did if we were like,

181
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,480
Speaker 1: it'll be fine, and I give a funk, it's fine.

182
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 1: There's so many people that I grew up with who

183
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,440
Speaker 1: act like that because of the certitude and what they

184
00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,840
Speaker 1: think and know to be true, where it's like, what,

185
00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,480
Speaker 1: there is a heaven and the afterlife is where it's at,

186
00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,480
Speaker 1: and that don't sweat it in this life if it's

187
00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 1: not going your way. Yeah. The way that they treat

188
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,560
Speaker 1: people as a result of that it's like to me

189
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,319
Speaker 1: or the earth or whatever it is, it's like, how

190
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,360
Speaker 1: is this okay to you? Seeing that? Observing that that

191
00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,440
Speaker 1: started to just make me kind of like question, you know,

192
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,040
Speaker 1: it's like, we are existing now, Why are we pretending

193
00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,280
Speaker 1: like we understand that it's going to be taken care

194
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,480
Speaker 1: of later, or that we shouldn't be thoughtful about these

195
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,880
Speaker 1: issues that are happening now, or that we shouldn't be

196
00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,000
Speaker 1: attentive to our neighbors or whatever. It's like, I just

197
00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 1: felt like such an oxymoron to me to like claim

198
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,560
Speaker 1: to be a Christian and to then move through the

199
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,920
Speaker 1: world that way. But you know, that's a whole other conversation.

200
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,840
Speaker 1: But I feel now like in my life, when the

201
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,360
Speaker 1: words I don't know come out of my mouth, I

202
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,920
Speaker 1: feel a sense of relief. It's like releasing this pressure

203
00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,360
Speaker 1: that I have to maybe feel like I need the

204
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 1: answers for everything, and to just be like, actually, that's

205
00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 1: not for me to decide, it's not for me to say,

206
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 1: and that's okay. Yeah, it's it's liberating. Do you find

207
00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,160
Speaker 1: that with songwriting? I found that a little bit. What

208
00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,880
Speaker 1: if I was stuck and I genuinely didn't know what

209
00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,959
Speaker 1: that verse was, or what that chorus or what was

210
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,720
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing. I would say out loud, I

211
00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 1: don't know, and then I will go and do something else.

212
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,360
Speaker 1: And it was invariably, necessarily always, but I would say

213
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,120
Speaker 1: about nine at the time in doing that other thing,

214
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,120
Speaker 1: whether it was going for a walk, going for stuff,

215
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,120
Speaker 1: going to the supermarket, that the idea or the link

216
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,400
Speaker 1: the bridge would come, or the idea of the lyrics.

217
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,600
Speaker 1: I think there's massive freedom and I don't know. It's

218
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:22,760
Speaker 1: the key maybe, and there's sometimes answers like you can't

219
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,840
Speaker 1: guarantee that, but like in the action of saying I

220
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,800
Speaker 1: don't know and then going for a surf or going

221
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,360
Speaker 1: on a walk, some of those say they're like as

222
00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,640
Speaker 1: simple as lyrical questions sort themselves out where you're like, oh,

223
00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,319
Speaker 1: that's the end of the verse. All of my favorite

224
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 1: writers have such strict regiments. They don't only prioritize writing,

225
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,480
Speaker 1: they prioritize not writing as well, And that them is

226
00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,120
Speaker 1: like a part of it, you know, Yeah, that's brilliant,

227
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,480
Speaker 1: and that is so true. And I think even like

228
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,480
Speaker 1: with writing anything, or maybe even with challenges as a whole,

229
00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,840
Speaker 1: the idea of leave it alone, like step away from

230
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,280
Speaker 1: that and allow the sort of now of discover rate

231
00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,800
Speaker 1: as opposed to just staying in the certainty of I

232
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,679
Speaker 1: don't know. I think it can actually be incredibly liberating.

233
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,400
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. It's in the other stuff. The creativity

234
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,480
Speaker 1: is in the other stuff, as well as the sitting

235
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,520
Speaker 1: there with the guitar or at the piano exactly yet.

236
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,079
Speaker 1: To use an audio example, it's like some of the

237
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:22,200
Speaker 1: biggest sounds are made from the lightest touch. You can

238
00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,200
Speaker 1: use that in writing. It's like we want to put

239
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 1: our heavy hand on it because we want product, we

240
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,600
Speaker 1: want things to be finished an instant, when it's like

241
00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,320
Speaker 1: sometimes we just have to like lighten up on our

242
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,400
Speaker 1: touch of the song and let it just grow. I

243
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,560
Speaker 1: feel like songs are like living things that if you

244
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,480
Speaker 1: give it the right amount of water and sunlight and attention,

245
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,760
Speaker 1: they will they will grow. I was writing over the

246
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,760
Speaker 1: Pandemic with Gary light Body, who's a really old friend

247
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,600
Speaker 1: of mine and a beautiful songwriter, and we were sending

248
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,760
Speaker 1: each other you know, so he literally did he just

249
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,920
Speaker 1: sit there with the guitar and like he'd figure something out.

250
00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,280
Speaker 1: Then he sent it to me and then I play it,

251
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,079
Speaker 1: and then I change some of the lyrics and I'd

252
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,520
Speaker 1: send it back to him, but it's like each time,

253
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,720
Speaker 1: and then maybe we'd have like voice notes in between

254
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,000
Speaker 1: where he'd be like, I don't know about that? What

255
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,040
Speaker 1: did you mean by that lyric? Like what did you

256
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,520
Speaker 1: mean about that? Linking us back into the thing. And

257
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,280
Speaker 1: it was so funny being in his I don't know

258
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,360
Speaker 1: and then like playing around in that and then vice versa.

259
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,960
Speaker 1: It was so beautiful because that it was an exchange

260
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,600
Speaker 1: of I don't know what this is, or I think

261
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,400
Speaker 1: it might be this, but I'm not attached to it,

262
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,920
Speaker 1: so you can change it. And we wrote like that,

263
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,520
Speaker 1: and there's something really cool about that because it doesn't

264
00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,320
Speaker 1: have to be anything. And you're right, it does create itself.

265
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,959
Speaker 1: It's the statue inside the block of marble, the Michael

266
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,640
Speaker 1: and the idea. It reveals itself. You just sort of

267
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,839
Speaker 1: chip away. Yeah, I mean it sounds like also in

268
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,280
Speaker 1: the exercise. What's so beautiful about that when you're writing

269
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,440
Speaker 1: with someone else is like, you can't afford to be

270
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:52,079
Speaker 1: too precious or egotistical about when your ideas are questioned.

271
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,760
Speaker 1: It's really actually just a question of wanting to understand.

272
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,520
Speaker 1: It's not like someone put it once, it was like,

273
00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,439
Speaker 1: I try not to take criticism personal because it's not

274
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,320
Speaker 1: me that they're criticizing. It's just an idea, which is

275
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,920
Speaker 1: like we don't do a good job, or at least

276
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,880
Speaker 1: I don't of separating myself from an idea because if

277
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,840
Speaker 1: someone doesn't like it, I'm like, then I can't produce

278
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,240
Speaker 1: anything else. It's I'm the problem. And it's like, that's

279
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,640
Speaker 1: not true. You're just the conduit for an idea and

280
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,360
Speaker 1: don't like let yourself become too like entangled with it.

281
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 1: But I think what's so beautiful about that exercises like

282
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,320
Speaker 1: you guys were allowing yourself to ask like I don't

283
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 1: know what this means, and you could either be like,

284
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,400
Speaker 1: oh it means this, or you could return it with it.

285
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's malluable. Yeah. Also practicing having

286
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,560
Speaker 1: that thrown at you like I don't like that and

287
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,480
Speaker 1: it's your idea and I have to go that that

288
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,680
Speaker 1: doesn't feel okay, and then you have to go through

289
00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,080
Speaker 1: that process of going, well, so what if that were true?

290
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,280
Speaker 1: So so now if I look at this song or

291
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 1: this piece of rising from the point of view of

292
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,480
Speaker 1: this person that I love and value they don't like

293
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,520
Speaker 1: this thing, okay, so what is that and then like

294
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,280
Speaker 1: going and examining it and going, oh, maybe I was

295
00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,160
Speaker 1: just attached to it because it was the only idea

296
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,880
Speaker 1: that I had, and I wanted to send him something

297
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 1: back to show that I can do this, like at

298
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,800
Speaker 1: the same level as you, which is ridiculous because he's

299
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:08,960
Speaker 1: been writing songs and many more songs than I ever have.

300
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,000
Speaker 1: It was interesting, like interrogating the ego of someone I

301
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,440
Speaker 1: respect doesn't like my idea, and then you couldn't take

302
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,040
Speaker 1: it personally because they weren't there. You just have to

303
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,040
Speaker 1: kind of figure it out and write another idea and

304
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,760
Speaker 1: then go, okay, well that also works and is maybe

305
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,680
Speaker 1: beautiful totally. I think it's cool writing in lots of

306
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 1: different ways, and it also creates an opportunity for you

307
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,680
Speaker 1: to respond in two different ways. Either you like are

308
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,480
Speaker 1: offended by it and you shut down and then no

309
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,000
Speaker 1: ideas come, or you allowed to be this like moment

310
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,240
Speaker 1: of faith where you're like, oh, I can do more,

311
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 1: I can do better, and I will exactly and maybe

312
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,360
Speaker 1: it will be better. Or maybe it's also just like

313
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,920
Speaker 1: there's there are loads of ideas. It's cool you don't

314
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,440
Speaker 1: just have one idea. I always get very attached to

315
00:15:47,480 --> 00:16:00,480
Speaker 1: that same where and when were you happiest? I loved

316
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,120
Speaker 1: this question because it was a little bit sad to me.

317
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,440
Speaker 1: That took me so long to think about it. It's like, oh, yeah,

318
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,760
Speaker 1: am I not happy on a day to day basis?

319
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I think it's kind of a

320
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 1: two part answer, if that's cool. During the pandemic, some

321
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 1: of our best friends and I and my husband, we

322
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,440
Speaker 1: all drove up to Montana and there's just one moment

323
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 1: where we drove up to Glacier and we we blew

324
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,000
Speaker 1: up all these inner tubes and we started at this

325
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,960
Speaker 1: stream head and just floated down the stream and there's

326
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 1: this one section where the water was so blue and

327
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,880
Speaker 1: so deep you couldn't see the bottom. And I remember

328
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,000
Speaker 1: just like instinctively grabbing onto a rock, throwing my inner tube,

329
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,960
Speaker 1: and then just diving as far as I could, And

330
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,280
Speaker 1: I like, I never do that. I rarely have a

331
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,120
Speaker 1: fear of water, but I just like I felt fearless

332
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,400
Speaker 1: and happy, and also like literally in that moment, no

333
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 1: one could reach me, no one could ask me questions.

334
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,440
Speaker 1: It just I felt completely liberated and I felt like

335
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 1: just a person, and like all the other things that

336
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,280
Speaker 1: you sort of let make up who you are felt

337
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,880
Speaker 1: unimportant in that moment, just from being in nature and

338
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,719
Speaker 1: from shutting off my phone. Things as simple as that

339
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,840
Speaker 1: that made me feel truly happy. God, I so can

340
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,439
Speaker 1: imagine that. I mean, I'm sitting here in London and

341
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,720
Speaker 1: I dream of the water in all forms, particularly the ocean,

342
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 1: all the time, and I just so saw that pool

343
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,880
Speaker 1: of what I love a physical trigger of happiness. It's

344
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,280
Speaker 1: often other people that around the circumstances, like just in

345
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:42,200
Speaker 1: asking this question that trigger happiness, yeah, or moments from childhood.

346
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,240
Speaker 1: But I love that idea of nature triggering real, true

347
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 1: happiness because I feel that is absolutely my happiest place

348
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 1: in the world is out in the ocean, surfing, being

349
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,560
Speaker 1: able to see my son on the beach totally and

350
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,639
Speaker 1: it's so innocent. It's like the moments where it just

351
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,800
Speaker 1: feels so uncomplicated for a second, they're like, Oh, all

352
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,879
Speaker 1: that matters right now is just like the way the

353
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 1: water feels and catching this wave or whatever. You know.

354
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,440
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't sadly go to those moments often enough,

355
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 1: or I don't make space for them because there's just

356
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,680
Speaker 1: so much you know day to day. My friend calls

357
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,960
Speaker 1: them techno realities, which are just these little things that

358
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,679
Speaker 1: you get lost in that sometimes cause you to forget

359
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,400
Speaker 1: what's important and what you love about your life. It's

360
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,879
Speaker 1: so weird because I was just having this conversation with

361
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:28,480
Speaker 1: my boyfriend the other day. I was like, what is

362
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 1: this charis in between the self awareness of things that

363
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,400
Speaker 1: will make our lives better and the actual doing of them.

364
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,400
Speaker 1: You know how that feels. I know how that feels,

365
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,159
Speaker 1: and yet actually going and seeking it out. It's almost

366
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 1: like we slump into that techno reality, or we slump

367
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 1: into it going wow, this is just life. This is

368
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 1: just what it is. I've got to sit in front

369
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,080
Speaker 1: of my computer for five hours and answer emails or

370
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,199
Speaker 1: do this thing. I think we've got to fight harder

371
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,920
Speaker 1: to carve out that other space because I know, we

372
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,239
Speaker 1: know that's where the creativity and the freedom comes from. Well,

373
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,199
Speaker 1: and the people that I think who display that the

374
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 1: most are like in sort of business terms, are always

375
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 1: deemed as like flaky or just like non responsive, but

376
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 1: they're actually the most tapped in. And that's not the

377
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,960
Speaker 1: case for every flakey person. Quote unquote. But those creatives

378
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,960
Speaker 1: that don't answer emails or don't it's like I know

379
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 1: that they're somewhere creating, or they're on a walk, or

380
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,440
Speaker 1: they're doing the things that matter, and it's like who

381
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,679
Speaker 1: cares about the rest? I know emails matter, Like if

382
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,960
Speaker 1: I didn't answer my email, this wouldn't have happened today.

383
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,240
Speaker 1: So that's important to me, you know. But also it's

384
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,200
Speaker 1: just like I think you're right. Instinctively, we know where

385
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 1: to return to, but we don't. It's always like last

386
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 1: resort or something. Yeah, I think again. It is just

387
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 1: like insisting on drawing the lines of engagement with life,

388
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 1: you know, of going okay, well it's going to be

389
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 1: this for this amount of time. But I'm just talking

390
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,199
Speaker 1: from my I suppose from my own perspective, which is

391
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 1: one gets lazy and then you don't realize that you've

392
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 1: sort of been bludgeoned by all of the social contracts

393
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 1: and all of the stuff. But it doesn't really take much.

394
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,399
Speaker 1: That's what's great. Like I can just walk up to

395
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 1: the park from where I live in London, and that's

396
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 1: where my mother used to say, that's where the city breeds.

397
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: And it's true, like you go there and these ancient

398
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,879
Speaker 1: trees and it's pretty wonderful, but you have to go

399
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 1: do it right. You have to do it. No one

400
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,440
Speaker 1: is going to tell you that you need that break

401
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 1: except for yourself. Like I've I've learned that a lot

402
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 1: where it's like, you know, if it weren't for me

403
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,199
Speaker 1: at times putting my foot down, I don't think anyone

404
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 1: would tell me, hey, you should stop, or like you

405
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 1: should take a break. Like it's like there's a machine

406
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,119
Speaker 1: that's running and no one really wants to shut it down. Yeah, yeah,

407
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,360
Speaker 1: it's true, particularly if you're generating income for them. I've

408
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,159
Speaker 1: also found that it's like, you know, it's like yeah, no,

409
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,640
Speaker 1: I'm you're right, I got to do that too. Yeah.

410
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's also attached to morals to where I'm like,

411
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,919
Speaker 1: oh my god, all these people are relying on me.

412
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,440
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do anyone wrong that way. And then it's

413
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,199
Speaker 1: like there is a certain point of honesty that you

414
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:55,960
Speaker 1: reach where you're like, but the way that I feel

415
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 1: now isn't helping anyone really, you know, like I have

416
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 1: to have to succumb to something in your life. Can

417
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: you tell me about something that has grown out of

418
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 1: a personal disaster. M This is another one of those

419
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 1: questions that I thought about for a couple of days.

420
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 1: I did my research, and I went and listened to

421
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 1: this podcast beforehand, and that one got me because I thought,

422
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 1: I'm twenty five at the moment, and there's the potential

423
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 1: that some of my worst personal disasters are ahead of me.

424
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: Oh you're so not wrong, which is like dark Now,

425
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: it's great, It's really true. You can confirm you're coming

426
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 1: at me from literally years older than you. Oh my god, No,

427
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. It's gonna be great because she's

428
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 1: going to grow out of it. But unfortunately, this is

429
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 1: the gift that keeps on giving, like you don't stop

430
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 1: having personal disasters, like it's just you know, you start

431
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 1: keeping a tally. It's a relief to me in a

432
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 1: certain way, though, because the more that I've talked to

433
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 1: people who are older than me or have just lived

434
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: more life, the idea of like, oh it just kind

435
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 1: of stays hard makes me feel like there's nothing more

436
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 1: that I should be doing to make it easier. It's like, oh, okay,

437
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: good that this isn't on me. This is just life

438
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: coming at me. But I would say the most recent

439
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 1: thing that I can name it was the experience of

440
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: making the album that just came out on September nine.

441
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 1: It was so deeply difficult for me, I think because

442
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: I just felt so disconnected from myself and from the process.

443
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 1: I just was like paralyzed, I think from pressure. And again,

444
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 1: so much of it, I think was I was responsible

445
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 1: for so much of the pressure. Was I was putting

446
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 1: on myself unduly, you know, But from my label and

447
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: from from management to it was just like, this has

448
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 1: to be like really remarkable work. Otherwise who knows in

449
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 1: this fragile place that the industry was in, And it's

450
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 1: like the one time that I felt like everybody who

451
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: was on the inside couldn't speak for how it would

452
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 1: look or what it would be. All they could say

453
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: was it just has to be amazing. And again that's

454
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: that's not me faulting anyone. It's just I was also

455
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: making this, writing this in so it was already a disaster. Yeah,

456
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 1: I think that was the scariest thing to me. I

457
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: felt like I was like a little foodsball on a

458
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 1: foods table that like anything that anyone said could have

459
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 1: like just shot me in the other direction. So I

460
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 1: feel like my compass was gone so the whole time,

461
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: to me, that felt like a disaster, and trying to

462
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: make music from that place, I just I like rerecorded

463
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 1: songs so many times because it just didn't feel right.

464
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: I just felt like it was reaching all that to

465
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: say as that was kind of happening. My grandma died,

466
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 1: who I was really close to, and you know, grief

467
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: tends to do that thing, which I learned because that

468
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: was the first person who I was ever close to

469
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,959
Speaker 1: that I lost. Grief as this thing that gives you

470
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 1: this hyperclarity, even if it's just for a short time,

471
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, literally, only these two things matter,

472
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 1: that's all I can give importance to. And for me,

473
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: it was like family and love and loving people well,

474
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: and that was it, and like music being out of

475
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 1: the equation, there just was a relief for a minute

476
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: because I was like, I've been putting so much pressure

477
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 1: on this and on myself and it's turned into this

478
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: thing that I'm so afraid to look at in the eye.

479
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: And what was so beautiful about that is there was

480
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 1: a song that I wrote about her, It's called Life

481
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: according to Rachel, that came out of that and it

482
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: felt like that sort of purity of thought, love and

483
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: family sort of came through the music. And what was

484
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: so cool about is like I released it thinking this

485
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 1: is such a specific song about my grandmother and losing her,

486
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: Like I think it's just going to be for me,

487
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: and so many people have been able to attach their

488
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: story in their life through that song, which has just

489
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: been like so overwhelming and mind blowing to me. And again,

490
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: it's like one of those things that I think it

491
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: was really just because there was like no ego around

492
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: a song like that, There was no room to try

493
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: and be impressive in the music. It was just like confessional.

494
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: It talks about the guilt that you feel when you

495
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: lose someone that you didn't do it enough or be

496
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: all those things that you deal with. So yeah, I

497
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 1: think and obviously the record is finished and I'm proud

498
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 1: of it, but that was one of those moments where

499
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 1: I was like, how do I avoid going through that

500
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: again in my life, even though I see such good

501
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: that that came out of it. But you know, sometimes

502
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: you come across these situations where you're like there is

503
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: literally nowhere around this but through, and so you just

504
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: kind of strap in and hope for the best. That's

505
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 1: so amazing, and I'm so glad that you. I'm not

506
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: glad you lost your grandmother, But to experience the clarity

507
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: and the clarifying nature of grief is it's an extraordinary privilege,

508
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: and it is a really beautiful, strange moment in a

509
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: person's life. And to be able to be creative, to

510
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: be able to use that and harness that because that, really,

511
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: to me is what that is, is harnessing that energy

512
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: and turning it into something else. But I'll tell you

513
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: something that my dad said to me when I was

514
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: heartbroken over this guy that I loved so much, and really,

515
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm actually must have been your age, and

516
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: I thought that I was going to marry him and

517
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: I loved him, and he just broken up with me.

518
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: And I stood up all night and I've been smoking

519
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: cigarettes and drinking coffee, and I was sitting outside our

520
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 1: house and my dad was going through this phase of

521
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: I think I've told the story before, but I'm going

522
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: to tell that again because it's pertinent. And my dad

523
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: went through this phase where he would go out jogging

524
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: in the morning and it lasted for like three weeks,

525
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 1: but it was during this time, he came out with

526
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: his towel around his neck and he was sort of

527
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: jogging and he had his toweling head band on and

528
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: he was like he was like, oh, have you been

529
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: up all night? And I was like, yeah, and I'm

530
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: so unhappy. I'm so sad. You've been up all night

531
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 1: just crying and smoking and drinking coffee. And he was like,

532
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: over a chap, is it? And I was like, yes,

533
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,959
Speaker 1: it's the love of my life. And my dad was like,

534
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: do you want me to tell you something that you're

535
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: not going to want to hear? And I was like, well,

536
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: I mean not really, but and he was like, you're

537
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: going to feel this way about someone else. So I

538
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: will say to you, Madison, you were going to feel

539
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: this way about other records. How however, you're also going

540
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: to feel that it's easy and beautiful and simple and

541
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: the way that maybe you love your husband you have

542
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,239
Speaker 1: that relationship. It's all of it, and it will be

543
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: all of it if we're lucky, hundreds of times over.

544
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: But I understand the brutality of being in that moment

545
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: where it's just so painful and the process has just

546
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: been really, really difficult, And even though you're proud of

547
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: the thing that comes out at the end it's Gnarlie,

548
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: and then you know they'll be that experience again. I'm

549
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: sure you're going to write so many more records and

550
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: you're I'm sure have it for maybe other different reasons.

551
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: You know, you'll have kids running around and you won't

552
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: be all of fucking focus and it'll be like, I'm

553
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: losing my mind and I've got to finish this record. Yeah, totally.

554
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: This goes back again to kind of what we said

555
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: at the beginning. It's like, you know, noticing when it's

556
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 1: hard and taking steps to kind of alleviate that, and

557
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: sometimes you can't and you just have to go through

558
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: it being hard. Someone said to me during that time,

559
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: and a similar thing that your dad said, but she

560
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: kind of was like, you know, the beauty of the

561
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: is she goes, it's just gonna get harder, and I

562
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: was like, I don't see beauty in that, but she

563
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 1: was saying, like the reality is and where you can

564
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: find beauty also is that you're going to lose more

565
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: people that you love. This is the beginning, but it's

566
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: also the beginning of more clarity and love in your life,

567
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: and that can feel morbid, like a morbid idea. But

568
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,959
Speaker 1: grief is such a human thing. It's such a human idea,

569
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: and it's it's things that we don't love to talk about,

570
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: but I find it so important, whether that be you know,

571
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: grieving the loss of a relationship or like actually loving

572
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: losing someone. That all has a place, and it's sadly inevitable.

573
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: Like I guess sometimes I'm like, there's no romantic way

574
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: to really view this. It's just sad, that's it. Yeah,

575
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: but that's also okay. Yeah, it's also okay. Exactly. Sometimes

576
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: it is it is just sad and it is just hard,

577
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: and that's okay, and like we get through it, you

578
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: get back to the glacier and the inner tube. Yes.

579
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: So what quality do you like, at least about yourself? Oh? Man,

580
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: probably how non confrontational I am. I I run from

581
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: it at every corner, and I think there's this desire

582
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: in me to be diplomatic and a peacemaker, and that's

583
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: a good quality. But the unhealth of it is when

584
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: it's like avoiding things purely because they're hard and uncomfortable,

585
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: not because they're bad, if that makes sense. It's like

586
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: some confrontation is necessary and good, and I hate to

587
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: see the way that like my non confrontational side will

588
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: possibly hurt somebody. So I work. I work on that,

589
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: I try to. I'm not good with the hard confrontations.

590
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: There's also this deep fear in myself that I have

591
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: that I don't know how to articulate something well, especially

592
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: when nervous. It's weird. I mean, I'm a I'm a songwriter.

593
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: I deal with lyrics, love lyrics, but I have time

594
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: to sort through that. But when I'm face to face

595
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: with someone and there's conflict or something, and I always

596
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: feel this immense pressure that I don't have what it

597
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: takes to actually like solve it at the moment. I

598
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: don't know where that comes from. I don't know if

599
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: like there's something in my childhood or I know my

600
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: dad is very non confrontational. Not to blame him for

601
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: my own qualities, but you know it's like sometimes you

602
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: inherit those those traits from your parents. Yeah you do.

603
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: It's what's it cool? It's called epigenetics. Is I want

604
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: the emotional stuff that you inherit. I didn't know that name.

605
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: That's helpful. Yeah, yeah, blame dad, I said one time

606
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: to a friend. I was like, how long can I

607
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: blame my parents for things? And they're like, I don't know,

608
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: maybe maybe don't blame them for things. Just maybe take

609
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: responsibility for as much as you can. And then it's

610
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: like a really delicate balance. I know it is. I'm

611
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: always asking my son. I'm like, is this damaging you?

612
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: Is the stamaging you? How about this is the sdamaging you?

613
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: What about this? Wait? Hold on, let me just stop crying.

614
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: Is the damaging you? The poor kid? But honestly, I've

615
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: just like, listen, I will be able to recommend you

616
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: a good therapist. I think our parents do. They gave

617
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: us all these things that are wonderful and all these

618
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: things that are terrible, because that's also the gift. I guess, yeah, right,

619
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: I guess so. I mean the gift of being able

620
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: to question yourself and everything. You know, I love that gift.

621
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: But like that must be hard as a parent, and

622
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: turned to tow then like to go, I know There's

623
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: gonna be a point in time where I'm going to

624
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: hurt you. Is that now? Like? Have I done it yet?

625
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: You know? That must be like you're holding your breath exactly,

626
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: And unfortunately it's unavoidable, like you are going to do that.

627
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: And again, it does seem to come around to self

628
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: awareness that, like as with anything, the minute, won't can

629
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: identify that you've done something that is difficult for another

630
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: person to metabolize calling it out and saying I, oh,

631
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: I did this and I'm really sorry, or I did

632
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: this and this because of this or whatever it is.

633
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: I do think that kind of mitigation helps. Interesting that

634
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: you're a songwriter and that you I mean, I think

635
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: that's really I think it's really cool. I wonder if

636
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: that's just like, in addition to the sort of being

637
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: rarely creative, it's also where of being able to work

638
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: through that and deal with it and go, no, you know,

639
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I can write about it, and I can

640
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: articulate it. I can articulate it actually really really well

641
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: and put it to music. Right. Well, yeah, I guess,

642
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: I guess those fears are always at the beginning of

643
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: writing songs too. Yeah. I always have this hesitation or

644
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: this worry that I'm going to forget how to do

645
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: it or not going to be able to do it

646
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: in a way that will mean anything to anyone, or

647
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: that anyone can understand, you know, because I think I

648
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: love ambiguity. It's I find it very sexy, and I

649
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: love people who are very mysterious. And there's the part

650
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: of me that just wants that to be what my

651
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: music is. And then there's another half of me that's like,

652
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: but I really want to be understood. Yeah, Like I

653
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: want people to know where I'm coming from and to

654
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: get the picture of me so they can hear me

655
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: when I speak. You know, it's a funny balance. That's

656
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: so funny. I always really wanted to be mysterious, but like, nah,

657
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: that ship sailed. I think that's a whole other lifetime.

658
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: But I know, I know exactly what you mean about.

659
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: I think it's really good to be able to articulate stuff.

660
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: I think that's also speaks to the creative process with

661
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: everything anyone who's creative, Like the minute you when you're

662
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: beginning something, we just have absolutely no idea how you're

663
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: going to do it again, Like how are you going

664
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: to do this? How is it going to happen? How

665
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: is this song going to be written, this book going

666
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: to be written, this play, movie, TV show be made?

667
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: Like it's mysterious, that is mysterious. Yeah, one. The actual

668
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: art of songwriting will forever be mysterious. It's like it's unattainable.

669
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: If we all knew where it began and where it ended,

670
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: we would just stay in those places, but we don't exactly.

671
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: It's constantly moving. So what relationship, real or fictionalized, defines

672
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: love for you? I feel like the people in my

673
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: life who have defined love for me are the ones

674
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: who have loved me through every phase of my life. Um,

675
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: and he liked me even And I would say, my sister,

676
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: I'm the oldest of five girls. Yeah, I know, it's

677
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: it's sometimes I don't realize how crazy that is until

678
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 1: I see a picture of all five of us together

679
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is a lot of kids. But

680
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: my younger sister and I we've always been inseparable since

681
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: I saw her when I was two years old and

682
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: she was just born, like we always have had a bond.

683
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: And she's just one of those people where it's like

684
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: I always kind of test her and bring things that

685
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: I think this is too ugly for anyone to hear.

686
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna tell you. And she never bats and

687
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,959
Speaker 1: I she's always just like, oh yeah, I have those

688
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: same thoughts, and I feel like she has shown me

689
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: love in ways that so many of my friendships and

690
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: people that I've leaned on have failed to. And maybe

691
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,959
Speaker 1: it's a blood related thing, but I don't know. She's

692
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: just kind of one of those people for me that

693
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: I lean on and know that I'll be seen I

694
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: kind of no matter what. My husband is also that

695
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: person for me. He this is such a rare thing

696
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: and not everybody's story, but I've known him since I

697
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: was thirteen. We met then, and you know, it was

698
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: never romantic. We were always just really really good friends,

699
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: and he was always one of those people for me

700
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: that I thought, it doesn't get better than Austin as

701
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: far as character goes. He's the coolest person I know,

702
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: or the best person I know. I don't know if

703
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: I thought he was the coolest at the time that

704
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: became apparent later. He just was kind of one of

705
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: those people that was just sort of a lynch pin

706
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: in my life, someone who just saw me from age

707
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: thirteen to now, which is a long span of time

708
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,919
Speaker 1: and how many turns a person can sort of take.

709
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: We ended up dating when he was a junior in college.

710
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: I was a couple of years younger than him. I

711
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: didn't go to college, but I moved to l A

712
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: and decided to pursue music, and the endeavor of that

713
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: was so much more intense than I expected. And it's

714
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: definitely tested me in so many ways as a person,

715
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: for better and for worse. And I think he's kind

716
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: of been there and seeing all of it, but still

717
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: has like just been there to kind of scoop me up,

718
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: to hold me kind of at the end of the day,

719
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: and has never like his love hasn't wavered in the

720
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: midst of all of that. So do you think that

721
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: being seen because you said that about your sister and

722
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: this and about your husband, Like, is that really important?

723
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it's really important. That's not what I meant,

724
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: I actually meant. Do you think that that is sort

725
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: of extends into the part of the crux of why

726
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: you do what you do? Is that notion of reflection

727
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: and visibility? Maybe in a subconscious way it is, like

728
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: it's funny. As a songwriter, I've always said like, I

729
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: don't know if I have anything to say, and then

730
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 1: sometimes that will change where you're like, oh I do,

731
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: Actually there's a song here, there's a statement that I

732
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: want to make. But I go in and out of

733
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: phases and feeling like I want to be seen in

734
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 1: that way, in a public way, and times where I

735
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: really really want to hide. And that probably fluctuates with

736
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: the level of hardship that comes with it. You know.

737
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: It's like the more responsibility you have, the more you

738
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: crave the denial of it. That's at least been my experience.

739
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,479
Speaker 1: But I think just in my in my personal life, yeah,

740
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 1: being seen is the most important thing to me. Even

741
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: if that means someone is seeing the worst parts of me,

742
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: I want them in on that. I want them to

743
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: know that that's really cool. I like that. Madison, thank

744
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: you so much. It's been so great. I really appreciate

745
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: your time and all your thoughts. Thank you so much.

746
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: Thank you many. This was just the honor of lifetime.

747
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: So thanks for having me. You're very, very welcome. You

748
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: can find Madison's album Revealer out now wherever you get

749
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 1: your chance, and give the song life. According to Rachel,

750
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: the song she told us about today, the one about

751
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: her grandmother. An extra spin Many Questions is hosted and

752
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: written by me Mini Driver supervising producer Aaron Kauffman, Producer

753
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: Morgan Levoy, Research Assistant Marissa Brown. Original music Sorry Baby

754
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: by a Mini Driver, Additional music by Aaron Kaufman. Executive

755
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks to Jim Nikolay,

756
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Addison No Day, Lisa Castella and Nick Oppenheim

757
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: at w kPr, de La Pescador, Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg,

758
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: and for constantly solicited tech support Henry Driver,