1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline and Caroline. We on Stuff I Never 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: Told You have talked about the spicy Latina stereotype, the 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: poccon to this princess Native American women stereotype, exoticizing women 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: of color, and now today we're going to dig into 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: stereotypes about Asian women, and particularly East Asian women. Yeah, 8 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: And the thing is, there's there's not just unfortunately, one 9 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: Asian lady stereotype to zero in on for this episode, 10 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: but the ones that we are going to dive into 11 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: should be pretty familiar to a lot of our listeners. 12 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: The idea of the dainty, submissive gaysh uh, or the 13 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: diminutive China doll, the angry sexualized dragon lady, or the 14 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: overbearing tiger mom. So all of these stereotypes should be 15 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: pretty familiar to our listeners. We've touched on a couple 16 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: of them in the podcast before, but we're really going 17 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: to zero in on the fetishization of East Asian women. Yeah, 18 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: and the phrase it comes up a lot to talk 19 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: about that kind of fetishalization, particularly within American culture with 20 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: the idea of white men especially being particularly drawn to 21 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: East Asian women is the whole Yellow Fever so called phenomenon, 22 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 1: and I realized that that is not the nicest way 23 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: to put it. It's an uncomfortable phrase to even say 24 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: on the podcast Caroline, but that is I mean, that's 25 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: what it's called for better for worse. I mean it 26 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: gets at the slur and sort of the creating a 27 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: monolith out of all of these women. It's the same 28 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: thing as exoticizing women of color. It's just a different 29 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: brand of that. And that exoticization of non white populations 30 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: is definitely nothing new. And in terms of the topic 31 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: at hand today, well, we've been doing it since about 32 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: the time of Marco Polo. Yeah, I mean essentially, once 33 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: there was Western contact with the Far East, the orient 34 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: started to develop that that mystical quality, and then all 35 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: of this gendering started to happen, not only of obviously 36 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 1: like the women and men and like drawing, you know, 37 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: stereotypes about the type of people they were, but even 38 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: gendering the entire geography. Because this whole issue of Western 39 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: fetishization when it comes to East Asia is really a 40 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,839 Speaker 1: story of imperialism. And this was something that Patricia Park 41 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: laid out really well over in Rich Magazine in an 42 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: article called the Madam Butterfly Effect. Um. And like you said, Caroline, 43 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: it does go back to Marco Polo's thirteenth century jaunt 44 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: to China, and that the whole development of the Silk Road, 45 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 1: and once they're started to be those exchanges of goods 46 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: and stories brought back from the East, right, just like 47 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: things that people in the West had never seen before, 48 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: whether that was spices or fabrics or just you know, um, 49 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: human beings we considered to be so insanely different from ourselves. Um. 50 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: But it's interesting when you do look at that gender 51 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: aspect because East Asia as sort of a whole has 52 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: been historically feminized in the eyes of the West, sort 53 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: of as a reaction against its formidable strength. We could 54 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: not come in and take over. Essentially, we couldn't come 55 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: in and be the boss, and so we ended up 56 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: fetishizing entire groups of people and claiming the women for 57 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: our own, us being the West and typically Western men. Yeah. 58 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: And and this pathological fetishization is called orientalism, and ultimately 59 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: it is an occidental or Western attempt to masculinize itself 60 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: and cement global dominance. And you see this fetishization of 61 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: East Asian women happening, uh, particularly peaking at different times 62 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: when on the flip side of that, a cultural castration 63 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: of Asian men happens. And we're not gonna have time 64 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: to get into that on the podcast today, but just 65 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: kind of keeping the back of your mind, how while 66 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: these women were being sort of elevated and sexualized, we 67 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: were doing the opposite to Asian men in a lot 68 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: of ways. But things really began to fetishize in Earnest 69 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: and Caroline, if we had a dollar already for the 70 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: number of times we said fetish a version of fetish 71 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: in this podcast, we could buy a sandwich perfect. Yes, 72 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: you're speaking my language. But yeah, So it began an 73 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: urnas so in the eighteen forties after the Opium Wars 74 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,679 Speaker 1: opened up British access to China. And this was something 75 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: that Patricia Park talked to Kim Brand about, who is 76 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: an associate professor of Japanese history and an author as well. Yeah, 77 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: because suddenly you have these buttoned up Victorian men, as 78 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: she calls them, uh, confronted with the image of the 79 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: Japanese geisha. This is a culture that had previously been 80 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: closed to the West. They'd kicked the white people out, 81 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: they were sick of them trying to make a buck 82 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: with through trading, and so Japanese culture had been pretty 83 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: closed to westerners for a long time. Um. But once 84 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: you have white guys returning to Japan, to China, to 85 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: this whole region, they're sort of blown away at what 86 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: they're seeing, especially when they are confronted with the women 87 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: around them. Yeah. So all of this leads up to 88 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: the seven publication of the book that's set off this 89 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: whole thing. Even still today we are seeing echoes of 90 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: it in this entire concept of yellow fever. So in 91 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: that year, a French writer named pure LOADI publishes Madame 92 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: chrissan Him pardon my poor French pronunciation, uh, And it 93 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: is a massive hit, And the whole plot line will 94 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: probably sound a little bit familiar. It's about this French 95 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: naval officer who travels to Nagasaki and has an affair 96 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: with his quote unquote temporary bride, chrissant Him, who's one 97 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: of many delightfully diminutive, doll like women he discovers in Japan. 98 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: And this whole tale is a huge, huge hit. There 99 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: dozens of reprints and translation out of the gate and 100 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: it is considered the seminal text that created the Western 101 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: idea of East Asian women. So thanks a lot, Pierre. Yeah, 102 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: I mean this is part of the trend of white 103 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: guys shaping how we view Asian women as a whole, 104 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: where we get this whole idea, this whole stereotype of 105 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: all Asian women being small, dainty wayfish women who are 106 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: able to satisfy you sexually in ways that you've never 107 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: dreamed of before. And meanwhile, though, I think it's important 108 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: to note, this is just one of many of Lodi's 109 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: tales of exploiting foreign women that he encounters. So like 110 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: traveling the world writing variations on Madam kreisntem just in 111 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: different countries, like oh well, now I'm going to exploit 112 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: this country's women and this region's women over here, shaping 113 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: all of them into these perfect little submissive dolls. So 114 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: he's basically the original globe trotting bro who comes holm 115 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: with so many stories you wouldn't believe the women men 116 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: you gotta get over there, that's right, And just like 117 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: with those people, I would imagine that not all of 118 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: his tales of conquest or true. No, seriously, it's true. Man, 119 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm telling you. She lives in Canada. You wouldn't know 120 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: he was crazy. But Loady's success in this whole story 121 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: inspires another guy named John Luther Long who writes a 122 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: short story a lot of listeners have probably heard of 123 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: called Madame Butterfly, So now I don't have to try 124 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: to mispronounce quez antem um and Madame Butterfly is all 125 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: about a dude named Lieutenant Benjamin Franklin Pinkerton and his 126 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: temporary Asian bride shows your son who has his baby, 127 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: who is then named Trouble, and then spoiler alert, she 128 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: kills herself. Well, I think actually in the short story, uh, 129 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: they generously allow her to just attempt to kill herself 130 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: and then she gets to live out like a troubled 131 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: and miserable existence with her child from then on out. 132 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: But it's not until we get the Piccini opera of 133 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: Madtern Butterfly, which I believe is when that character kills 134 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: herself but she needs like oh you know what audiences 135 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 1: love well, right, because then so not only do you 136 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: have the dainty submissive sexually satisfying woman, but you throw 137 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,719 Speaker 1: in some self sacrifice into all of that to make 138 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: her like the perfect lady martyr figure for a white guy. Yeah, 139 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: a woman who is so in love with you that 140 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: when she can't have you, she kills herself. Hello, what 141 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: a dream gal Um? Yeah, Madama Butterfly premiered in nineteen 142 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: o four and remains one of the most performed operas 143 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: in the US and abroad. And Caroline, is this the 144 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: moment when when we can take a quick side trip 145 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: to talk about high school? Oh my gosh. Yeah, So 146 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: I don't understand how I got through so many, so 147 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: many of my years, um without putting these two pieces together. 148 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: I guess it's just because I'm not a Puccini fan 149 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: girl like maybe I should be. But as I was 150 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: researching and reading for this episode, I was seeing the 151 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: named Pinkerton. Pinkerton Pinkerton. Oh my god, that was one 152 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: of my most favorite albums in high school, the beloved 153 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: second release of Weezer. And Yeah, I mean, of course 154 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: I realized listening to it approximately one ba jillion times, 155 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: that he is seeing about Checho, sad and stuff. But 156 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: I never put two and two together, and it sort 157 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: of blew my mind too. I can't believe in the 158 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: number of times that I listened to that record growing up, 159 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: and even as a college student, that I didn't I 160 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: didn't realize that that's the connection. And this whole time 161 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: I had just been thinking Rivers Cuomo is just some 162 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: sort of like creep with yellow fever fetishization of Asian women. 163 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: And it's not that I'm necessarily wrong, but I was 164 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, thinking, oh, well, 165 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: he just really likes Puccini, or he really likes Madam Butterfly, 166 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: Like that's great, right, that's cultured demo, that's not really EMO. 167 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: Don't send me your letters clarifying why Weezer is not EMO, please. Um. Well, 168 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: so I did a little googling. I wanted to better 169 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 1: understand the connection there between Weezer and Madam Butterfly. But basically, 170 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: in this Rolling Stone interview that I read with Rivers Cuomo, 171 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: he goes on and on about how in listening to 172 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: Madam Butterfly over and over again, he becomes fascinated with 173 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: the character, with her character, and at the same time 174 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: became infatuated with that type of girl that's in the opera, 175 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: and he says that he identifies with the Pinkerton character 176 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: because he's basically like the rock star of his day. 177 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: He goes from port to port picking up ladies. And 178 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: I was like, no, I guess okay, considering the popularity 179 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: of Wheezer, All right, Rivers Cuomo, you are tortured Pinkerton. 180 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: Maybe that's why he entered his celibacy phase for a while. Um, 181 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: but it was it was just surprising again that it 182 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: somehow took this long. Thank you stuff, Mom never told 183 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: you for putting the pieces together. And it's also interesting 184 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: to really just keep in mind that these stereotypes and 185 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: this fetishization led to a hundred years plus of this 186 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: self sacrificing storyline, because then all of this Madam Butterfly 187 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: business inspired Miss Saigon, which is basically the same story 188 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: but told about a Vietnamese woman rather than a Japanese woman. Yeah, 189 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: and if we move forward in our timeline, well hop 190 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 1: back from Weezer, but forward from Puccini. When we're in 191 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, we have the emergence of a new 192 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: sexualized stereotype, the dragon lady. And this is the cunning 193 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: fem fatal foil to the China doll slash lotus flower, 194 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: and the term was coined in the nineteen thirties. Yeah, 195 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: it was used to describe Empress Dowager c ch as 196 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: she was slanderously portrayed in British historian Hugh Trevor Roper's 197 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: completely false account of his affair with her. Among other things, 198 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: this guy claimed that the Empress had an oversized clitterists, 199 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: so good for him, just slut shaming women that he 200 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: never actually had any sort of contact with. Well, and 201 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: that reflects how these stereotypes do tend to meander down 202 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: to vulver anatomy. And yes, vulver is an adjective. It's 203 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: all awkward to say, but it does exist. Yeah, it's 204 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: just it's just one of of many that are vulver related. Yeah, 205 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: and have to do with size and assumptions about size. 206 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: And that's something too. Echoing back to our podcast on 207 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: big butts and the fetishization, particularly of women of color, 208 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: and with the story of Sarki Bartman and all of 209 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: that fascination um as well with or I shouldn't say 210 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: fascination but even just dark obsession with this idea that 211 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: Native African women had different sized volvers compared to white 212 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: women as well. So all sorts of just horrible types 213 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: of things like that going on. Um. And one person 214 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: that we wanted to talk about in terms of the 215 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: portrayals of the stereotypes in Hollywood once we move from 216 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: literature and into film. In early Hollywood, one of the 217 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: only Asian American actresses that you saw on the silver 218 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: screen was a woman named Anna May Wong, and our 219 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: cultural treatment of Asian women is so much reflected in 220 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: her career. Yeah, and this really echoes the career paths 221 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: of a lot of black actresses during this time too, 222 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: who were often shuttled off into roles as maids, housekeepers 223 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: and the like. Um Anname Wong, for instance, appeared in 224 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: sixty films always the Home as some type of slave, temptress, prostitute, 225 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: or doomed lover. There was always some sort of subservient 226 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: sexuality and sexual tension going on. And we wanted to 227 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: spend a little time talking about her biography and experience 228 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: in Hollywood because to me, at least, it was so 229 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: informative of how these stereotypes really took root and manifested 230 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: in the United States. And I highly recommend listeners that 231 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: you read the BuzzFeed piece about this written by the 232 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: fantastic an Helen Peterson, who has also been on the 233 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: podcast UM. She wrote a great piece about Anime Wong 234 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: and it is a recommended read. And Wong was a 235 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: Chinese American actress born in l a in nineteen o five. 236 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: And even the fact that she was born in the 237 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: United States was something that Hollywood tabloids because you could 238 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: never really wrap their minds around, like, I know, she 239 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: looks Chinese, but surprised she was actually born here. Yeah, 240 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: and I now, like all of the articles about Anime 241 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: Wong put every modern fashion spread that discusses Asian inspired 242 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: fashion and stark relief because because I don't know if 243 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: the headline East meets West sort of originates in terms 244 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: of pop culture youth originates with Anime Wong articles. But 245 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: holy crap, like that seems like they couldn't write anything else. 246 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: They were so everybody's minds were blown that this is 247 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: an American woman born in America in case you were wondering, UM, 248 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 1: who didn't speak with an accent, And they just couldn't 249 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: get over the like the discrepancy there. Yeah, and and 250 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: the treatment of Asians at the time that she was born. 251 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: Is very much reminiscent of what we talked about in 252 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: our Spicy Latina's episode exploring how those anti Mexican in 253 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: particular stereotypes really started to creep in at this time, because, 254 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: as Anne Helen Peterson lays out, in the nineteenth century, 255 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: the first mostly male Chinese laborers start coming to the US, 256 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: and then in two you have something called the Chinese 257 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: Exclusion Act barring their entry to the country because they 258 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: were believed to be a moral, unhealthy, and a threat 259 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: to our fabric of society. So this is the environment 260 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: where things are happening. And there was also a lot 261 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: of discomfort too with the fact that a lot of 262 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: Asian women, because of these kinds of US policies, were 263 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: not allowed to come into the United States as well. 264 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: There were fears that they would bring over things like STDs. 265 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: So you have these communities of mostly Asian men that 266 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: white people similarly, we're like, oh, what's going on over there? 267 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: That's not right. There are new women, but at the 268 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: same time they judged their women as being immoral too, 269 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: so there was it was just a mess to begin with. 270 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: And here's anime Wong who grows up in l A 271 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: and decides to be an actress. Yeah, so she starts 272 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: appearing as an extra and a few films being shot 273 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: in Chinatown. When she's like fourteen, she gets her dad's permission, 274 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: and he only lets her go if she is constantly 275 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: supervised in chaperone by a bunch of big dudes. But 276 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: she began acting full time in nineteen one, with her 277 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: big rate coming in ninety two's The Toll of the Sea, 278 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: which is basically another take on the Madam Butterfly storyline. 279 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: And of course, her character's name is Lotus flower Um. 280 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: But despite the fact that she's a great beauty and 281 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: a great actress, she's got this passion for acting. The 282 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: racism of the day kept her from everything from attending 283 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: Hollywood parties to even kissing her white co stars on screen, 284 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: thanks to things like California's anti misgenation law. She also 285 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: was super afraid to be caught with any white co 286 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: stars out and about in the same way that celebrities today, 287 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: if their photos taken and they're together, everybody automatically assumes 288 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: their dating or sleeping together. Whatever. Celebrities back then, especially 289 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: celebrities of color, were also subject to all of these assumptions, 290 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: and so she was quoted as saying that she had 291 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: to cut off a bunch of love affairs because she 292 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: was so worried that one or both of them would 293 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: get personally hurt or that professionally hurt. Yeah, and so 294 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: this is similarly reflected in the roles that she's offered, 295 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: because she could only ever play either a more sympathetic 296 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: character who has to kill herself like a cho Cho 297 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: San because her exotic love is doomed and also ps 298 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: they can't show them kissing, so it's not like they 299 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: can really have a romance blossom. Or she would play 300 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,479 Speaker 1: a dragon lady temptress who tries to thwart romance between 301 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: two lily white leads. So not exactly uh much of 302 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: an arrange she was, you know, at liberty to explore, 303 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: but the Tabloyd's loved her. This is one thing that 304 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: Peterson noted that, unlike say black actresses of the day, 305 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: who would not have gotten any coverage at all, because 306 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: Animy Wong was light her skinned and still exotic in 307 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: the fact that she just wasn't black, they could still 308 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: talk about her. She would never make the cover of magazine, 309 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: But she made for just such tantalizing content as we 310 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: would say in the Internet age today, right, And one 311 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: of the descriptors that they tended to use for really 312 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: Asian people in general, but definitely for Anime Wong as well, 313 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: is talking about her ancient race. There's always this discussion 314 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: by white media back then and I don't know, maybe 315 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: today about the ancient races of Asia, as if we 316 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: have somehow excavated from some block of ice, like the 317 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: entire groups of people who have just been around alive 318 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 1: for centuries, giving them like the dinosaur treatment almost. But yeah, 319 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: so along those same lines, one of the fan magazines 320 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: of the time said that she reminds us of cruel 321 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: and intricate intrigues and at the same time of cruoned 322 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: Chinese lullabies. She brings to the screen the rare comprehension 323 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: and the mysterious colors of her ivory skinned race. Who so, 324 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: considering that climate, it's not terribly surprising that she never 325 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: really broke through America's outsize racism to become an a list, 326 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: Unlike one of her gal pals, Marlene Dietrich, who she 327 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: befriended when she moved to Europe where things were a 328 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: bit more liberal, and she was even passed over at 329 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: certain times for Chinese character lead roles that were instead 330 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: cast with white ladies. For instance, in two Madam Butterfly, 331 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: the movie started Carrie Grant as Pinkerton, which that broke 332 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: my heart a little bit because yes, did I have 333 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: a childhood crush on Carrie Grant? For sure? Totally. Mr 334 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: Blandings built his dream house. Hello, I know someone who 335 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: can fill that dream bedroom and his Chocho son. Oh well, 336 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: Sylvia Sydney, of course, famed white ladies, Yes, the white ladies, 337 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: Sylvia Sydney. And there were all of these magazine spreads 338 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: at the time kind of behind the scenes of these 339 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: films detailing how they transformed to white women into Asian characters, 340 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: which was just a lot of like racist, awful, Like 341 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,719 Speaker 1: here's how we pull our eyes back and put her 342 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: in yellow face, uh and make her talk with a 343 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: broken English accent. It was all pretty horrifying. Um, But 344 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: there was Anne Helen Peterson points out over in that 345 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: BuzzFeed article a film version of the book The Good Earth, 346 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: which was not perfect in its depiction of Asian people, 347 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: but still a little bit better a little bit more rounded. 348 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: And so she points out that MGM offered Anime Wong 349 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: the role of again Lotus, a slinky tea house dancer 350 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: who seduces the main moral character and becomes the second wife. 351 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: But Anime Wong actually refused the role because at this 352 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: point she'd been to Europe she saw that it could 353 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: be better. She saw that her friend Marlene Dietrich was 354 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,479 Speaker 1: getting these great roles. She saw that white women were 355 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: portraying Asian women all all on screen everywhere, and so 356 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: she said, you're asking me with Chinese blood to do 357 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: the only unsympathetic role in a picture featuring an all 358 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: American cast portraying Chinese characters. No thanks, So she turned 359 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: that down and basically stepped back from large roles. So 360 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: by the time we get to World War Two, when 361 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: relationships between sday the United States and the Japanese become 362 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: far more complicated, to say the least, this relationship is 363 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: already so disfunctional. We already have these ideas firmly ingrained 364 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: in popular culture. And we're going to talk more about 365 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: World War two and the Lotus Flower revival when we 366 00:24:52,920 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick bread. So, once World 367 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: War two happens, and then we're involved in the Korean 368 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: War and in Vietnam, American soldiers and Americans in general 369 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: are put more in contact with Asian cultures than really 370 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: ever before, and they're dealing with them in ways that 371 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: they've never really dealt with them before. And of course, unfortunately, 372 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: one of the ways in which American gis and Asian 373 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: women are become involved is through the sex trade. Yeah. 374 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: I mean, of course there were actual relationships that might 375 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: have been taking place, but there was rampant prostitution that 376 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: was happening, also rape between soldiers and local women. And 377 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: again we return to this era of gendering of the East, 378 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: so sort of refeminizing this area of the world, which 379 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: certainly isn't a coincidence because yet again you have this 380 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: West Durn power the occident like trying to reassert its 381 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: dominance to be the masculine world power. And it's Madam 382 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: Butterfly all over again culturally, with similar stories that we've 383 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: talked about in the first half of the podcast, repackaged repeatedly, 384 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: only this time with more white Guy's savior twists and 385 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: prostitutes with hearts of gold. Yeah, and Kristen put together 386 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: a list, and I've only seen one of the movies 387 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: on this list, and that's South Pacific, which premiered on 388 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: Broadway in nine. But I was growing up my dad 389 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: was such a huge like Broadway and musical fans, so 390 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: I've definitely familiar with South Pacific. But in this era 391 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: you also get nineteen fifty seven's Sayinara, in nineteen sixty 392 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: you get the world of Susie Wong. And in the 393 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: eighties we see Missigon, which is set in Vietnam, as 394 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: we already mentioned, but also Full Metal Jacket, which coined 395 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: some more unsavory pop cultural references with the whole mesa 396 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: horny line that we've heard not only from that movie, 397 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: but it got also shuttled into music as well. Yeah, 398 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: and today we still see Hollywood peddling stereotypical roles for 399 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: Asian actresses. They're either model minorities, you know, the nerdy 400 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: kid in class, their dragon lady businesswomen. They're sexy kung 401 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: fu masters or non English speaking immigrants running dry cleaners, 402 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: or their prostitutes. And if we move away from the 403 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: big screen to the small screen, television is slightly more 404 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: progressive as it usually is, but just slightly. It's not 405 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: like it's the Land of Plenty. Yeah. Of course Grey's 406 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: Anatomy fans will recognize Sandra Oh's name. She she was 407 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: probably my favorite character, definitely was my favorite character on 408 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: Gray's Anatomy back when I used to watch it, and 409 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: her characters existence was certainly not built or shaped around 410 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: her race at all. Um. You also have Lucy Lou, 411 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: who I love too. She went from being sort of 412 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: the resident dragon lady on Ally McBeal to a more 413 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: well rounded character on the show Elementary as Watson, and 414 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: then on Glee. You have Jenna push Cowitz and Hettian 415 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: Park on Hannibal as investigator Beverly Cats and this was 416 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: really interesting. So um, spoiler alert for those of you 417 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: who are not caught up on Hannibal, Park's character was 418 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: written off the show, and it won't tell you how, 419 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: We'll just say that she was written off the show 420 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: and there was a fan outcry, partially because it is 421 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: still relatively rare to see Asian women in these more 422 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: well rounded roles. And she took to her blog to 423 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: personally respond to the fan outcry, and it really, you know, 424 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: gets at how this issue is still alive and well 425 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: in Hollywood, So she wrote, quote, I'd rather focus on 426 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: the positive stuff. I got to play this amazing woman 427 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: who didn't have to sleep with anyone or act dum 428 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: and girly or fawn all over some guy to be 429 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: conniving to get people to notice or respect me. And 430 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: she didn't speak broken English or karate chop anyone, not 431 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: that I would have minded. Nobody called her dragon lady 432 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: or exotic. Yeah, it's just that whole idea of of 433 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: normalizing diversity and and having TV and film represent our 434 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: everyday experience, what we're seeing on the street, and so 435 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: not having a character like I was saying with Sandra 436 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: and Grey's anatomy that's built entirely around someone's Asian nous, 437 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: having an Asian actor or actress be able to play 438 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: just a character on a TV show um and over 439 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: at Salon, though, they point out that two particular Orange 440 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: Is the New Black characters aren't as well rounded as 441 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: they could be, and those are the characters of So 442 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: So and Chang, that they sort of huge stereotypical, and 443 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: that their backstories either haven't been fleshed out enough or 444 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: that they haven't gotten as much play as some of 445 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: the other characters. Yeah, it seems like Kimiko Glenn's plot 446 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: line playing So So is a little less stereotypical. Like 447 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: if anything, um, she you know, portrays the mental health 448 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: realities that can be associated with not only well being 449 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: in prison, but also these model minority expectations that you know, 450 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: do sometimes happen within Asian American households. But with Chang Um, 451 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: up until this most recent season, I mean, she was 452 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: very much just a stock character and a little bit 453 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: of comic relief. But I remember watching it, I mean 454 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: long before obviously we were searching for this episode and 455 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: thinking like, huh, okay, that's kind of an outlier, as 456 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: I should before So So came along, she was the 457 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: only Asian character and rarely spoke. Yeah. Well, in that 458 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: Salon article, the writer was like, well, I'm not trying 459 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: to argue for more Asian women in prison, um, but 460 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: the whole underrepresentation of Asian characters in this show that 461 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: takes place in a prison does sort of reflect the 462 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: existing stereotype of Asians as the quote unquote model minority 463 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: that they never do anything wrong. They just study math 464 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: and get a grades and get married and go on 465 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: to be model citizens. When even if some people do 466 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: think that that model minority stereotype is positive, like, hey, 467 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: we're not saying that you break the law, so shouldn't 468 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: you be grateful, it's still squashing entire groups of people 469 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: down to a one dimensional representation that doesn't reflect reality 470 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: absolutely well, and speaking of squashing down a culture to 471 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: not reflect reality, very briefly, this is something that we've 472 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: seen female pop stars in particular pedal out with some 473 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: of the air acts. I mean, this is more of 474 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: a bigger conversation about cultural appropriation, but this is also 475 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: too recycling some of these fetishistic images that we've talked about. 476 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: So I feel like the conversation really got started way 477 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: back now in the olden days of two thousand four 478 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: when Gwen Stefani released Love Angel Music Baby, and as 479 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: part of her stick with that, she hired on the 480 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: Hard Juko Girls posse do not only appear in shows 481 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: and backup dance for her, but just to be her 482 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: posse everywhere well, to be her accessories. Yeah, I think 483 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: it is what a lot of people took issue with, 484 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: as you can really claim about any type of cultural 485 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: appropriation or plenty of stuff that musicians do in music videos. 486 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: You know, there have been plenty of people like Miley 487 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: Cyrus and Taylor Swift have been accused of similar things, 488 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: but with African American women. Um but in and you 489 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: also have uh Katie Perry at the American Music Awards 490 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: recycling that tired geisha image of the cute, c diminutive, 491 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: submissive woman carrying the little parasol wearing the kimono. Yeah. 492 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: And then it also in two thousand thirteen, Avril Levine's 493 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: Hello Kitty video was very much Japanese school girl. A 494 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: lot of people weren't too happy about that. Her defense was, hey, 495 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: I shouted in Japan and the director was Japanese. I 496 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: love Japanese culture. Which is why a lot of this 497 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: really meanders over more to a conversation about cultural appropriation 498 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: than these kinds of this fetishization that we're talking about, 499 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: But it's still related. It's all part of the same ballawact. Yeah, 500 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: Because whether you're fetishizing someone or you're appropriating part of 501 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: their culture, you're still just taking a tidbit of information 502 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 1: that is oftentimes false or misrepresentative and using it to 503 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: represent entire groups of people. And it's definitely something that 504 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: you see play out when you do talk about romantic 505 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: or sexual relationships and dating and the way that people 506 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: who are accused of having yellow fever are talked about. 507 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: But there's still pervasive stereotyping, especially when it comes to 508 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: relationships between white men and Asian women. And I'm not 509 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: just talking about, you know, fetishization that some white dudes 510 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: might have, particularly for Asian women, but I'm talking about 511 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: from the outside looking into and our outside assumptions when 512 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: we see those couples and the whole yellow fever thing 513 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: of saying, oh, well, he must be like that, she 514 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: must be like that. They're like X y Z. Yeah. 515 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: And Patricia Park in that Bitch article that we sited earlier, 516 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: talks a lot about how everyone from comedians to frat 517 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: boys to whoever, recycles a lot of that to borrow 518 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: a phrase ancient praise of Asian women's supposed physical perfection, 519 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: the fact that they are small and petite everywhere. Yeah, 520 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: this is something too that Karen Ang wrote about in 521 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: also in a Bitch article that was published in two 522 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: thousand called the Yellow Fever Pages, and it's cited in 523 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: so many pieces that talk about this um and she 524 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: wrote the fantasy Asian is intelligent yet pliable, mysterious yet ornamental, 525 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: perpetually pre pubescent, ageless, and petite, and she comes from 526 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: a culture where women traditionally serve men. So you know, 527 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 1: you package all of that up together and you get 528 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: yellow fever. Meanwhile, too, we have the more cultural casphration 529 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: of Asian men in the United States, and there is 530 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: some disturbing evidence of that, especially if you look at 531 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: the sex industry, especially in Southeast Asia and and sex 532 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: tourism being the primary tourist attraction in Thailand. Yeah, and 533 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: then you combine that with the fact that you've got 534 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: all of these websites that are dedicated to matching up 535 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: American men with Asian women, and that's a huge market 536 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: and in and of itself, it's almost like a new 537 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: type of arranged marriage. And then far more casually and 538 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 1: anecdotally in the United States, there's the kind of the 539 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: off hand suggestion to say Asian girl friends of like, oh, 540 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: you know what, you should date this guy because he 541 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 1: loves Asian girls. Um and a huge YouTuber Anna Kna 542 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: made a fantastic video about this in which she just said, no, stop, stop, 543 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: shut it down, don't do any of that because it's 544 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: kind of racist and insulting basically, and they're in fact, 545 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: is an entire documentary called Seeing Asian Female about online dating, 546 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: specifically to find an Asian hide, and it was made 547 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 1: by Chinese American documentarian filmmaker Debbie Lum, who follows this guy, 548 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, as he seeks out a girlfriend, um and wife. 549 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: He wants an Asian wife, and particularly a Chinese born woman, 550 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: and he meets her online. He travels to China, she 551 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: comes back with him, they get married. Yeah, this guy, 552 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: Stephen definitely wasn't portrayed in the best light. That's a 553 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: nice way of saying. He was definitely portrayed as a creep, 554 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: and his wife was definitely portrayed as someone who was 555 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: just seeking a visa. So this wasn't a glowing representation 556 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,959 Speaker 1: of white guy meets Asian girl, they fall in love. 557 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: This wasn't sort of a fairy tale story. And not surprisingly, 558 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: Stephen did not love being portrayed as this pathetic white 559 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 1: guy with a massive fetish and he left this huge 560 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: comment on the NP our story, which was fascinating. Um. 561 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: But he says that, you know, lightheartedly, he could accept 562 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: the dismissive and negative phrase yellow fever, but he says 563 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: in reality that sounds far more strange than how I 564 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: view it, like an affliction rather than a preference. But 565 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,839 Speaker 1: you have to keep in mind that he was explicitly 566 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 1: seeking out Asian women and that he zeroed in on 567 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: Chinese women after communicating with countless women and realizing that 568 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: he liked the communication style of Chinese women more so 569 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: whatever that means, um well, and even the notion that 570 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: you like the and I don't. Maybe he gets into 571 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: this more in the documentary. I would hope so, because 572 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: as someone Caroline who spent almost three weeks in China, 573 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:57,359 Speaker 1: I'm an expert. But the very idea that it's like saying, oh, 574 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: I like how American women, uh communicate where it's like, 575 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: wherever you go, it's going to be a little bit different, 576 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 1: regional differences, especially if you go to China, big differences 577 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: depending on where you're going in the country where she 578 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: grew up, what her family dynamic was like. So wait, 579 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: are you saying that, like, women can be different, I'm 580 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 1: saying people can be different. My god, crazy. But you 581 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: know a lot of people would argue, as Stephen might, 582 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: that this is just his preference the way that somebody 583 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: might like a blonde mate, or somebody else might like 584 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,879 Speaker 1: somebody who's tall. Uh, that this is just a preference. Yeah, 585 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,399 Speaker 1: I mean, I will be completely honest. I mean, because 586 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: why not, I've only ever dated white guys. It's not 587 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: that I have not dated guys of other ethnicities, because 588 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: I have no but that has been what I've been 589 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: attracted to. So I could see, I can see how 590 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,839 Speaker 1: you can play it both ways, like, well maybe, well, 591 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 1: maybe that's just my biological, innate brain, you know, mechanics 592 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: leading me to my now, you know, blonde, blue eyed 593 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 1: fiance with a dreamboat. He's like a Kendall. But I 594 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,720 Speaker 1: mean other people would say, well, that's just social influences, 595 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: and so there could definitely be some social influences that 596 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: lad the twice divorced Stephen to see that his son 597 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: had married a Japanese woman, whom he described as very agreeable. Uh, 598 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 1: to then decide, well, I'm going to pursue Asian women. 599 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 1: I'm just not sure what tap yet. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, 600 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: there's kind of no way around it in his case. Um, 601 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: But regardless though of the fact that I think, you know, 602 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: that does exist in some situations that does exist. Um, 603 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: there's also two side note, Caroline. One thing that I 604 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: wasn't able to find any analysis on, but jumping from that, 605 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: the stereotype of especially the white geek guy being extremely 606 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: attracted to Asian women. There's this whole comic about it 607 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: called Charisma Man. You can google it and it sort 608 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: of sums up the whole thing. So like rivers Cuoma, Yeah, 609 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,399 Speaker 1: like rivers Cuomo. Yeah. Get Caroline just made a weak 610 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: face because it does get to a point with that 611 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 1: of like, way, what is what is really going on here? 612 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: What are these dynamics not just like demonize all of 613 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,800 Speaker 1: you know, anyone in this situation, but just wonder what 614 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:43,879 Speaker 1: those dynamics are. Well, sure, especially because um, whether you're 615 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: Asian or whether you have Asian friends or family, Uh, 616 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: you're probably familiar with the horrors that a lot of 617 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: Asian women face on dating sites. I mean, yes, yes, 618 00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: all women hashtag all women do face horrific messages is 619 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: and things like that on dating sites. I have was 620 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 1: definitely the recipient of a few when I used to 621 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: be on Okay keep it back in the day. Um, 622 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: but Kristen and I have a friend who used to 623 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 1: be on a couple of dating sites, and the abuse 624 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: that she would suffer from men who were saying horrific 625 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: things that were based purely on her race, purely on 626 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: her Asian nous. I I just don't know, um how 627 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 1: you can say that it's not an Asian fetish I 628 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: just like Asian chicks. I mean, it definitely speaks to 629 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,240 Speaker 1: the power of these stereotypes. Going back, told Pierre LOADI 630 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: come on, Pierre, and it's unfortunate because when we get 631 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,919 Speaker 1: out of stereotype and fetishization land and into attraction, Bill, 632 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: you know, you have plenty of healthy, real world relationships 633 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 1: between Asian women and white guys. And because though of 634 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: all of that stereotypical baggage, now they have to deal 635 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: with assumptions. This was something that Victoria Chan wrote about 636 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,319 Speaker 1: over Advice, basically saying like, You're like, these stereotypes are 637 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: making my relationship unbearable sometimes because of the things people 638 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,240 Speaker 1: say to me, the jokes that I'm expected to endure, 639 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: and also just this assumption that my boyfriend is a creep. Yeah, 640 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: it is that dual awfulness of having to endure casual racism. 641 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: One of the examples that Chan gave was they went 642 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,799 Speaker 1: to her boyfriend's family's place over the summer and they 643 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 1: were going to play beer pong, and people were like, hey, 644 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: you'll like this. It's just like ping pong. Yeah, your 645 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,399 Speaker 1: your people are familiar with that. Um, which I think 646 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: she was talking about caused a fight with her and 647 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and he apologized on behalf of the person. 648 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 1: But so you've already got to deal with the pressures 649 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: of one member of the relationship having to deal with racism, 650 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: whether it's explicit or implicit, or direct or indirect um, 651 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 1: and one not one being, as she says, the privileged, 652 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: middle class white guy. Um. But then also having to 653 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: deal with assumptions about your relationship like that stinks that 654 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:14,840 Speaker 1: people are just looking at you and being like a 655 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,320 Speaker 1: Asian lady and white guy, your boyfriend must be a creep. 656 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: Something's twisted. Well, and she brought up to the assumptions that, well, 657 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: she must be ashamed of her heritage or she's just 658 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: you know, why doesn't she want to be with an 659 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: Asian guy? What does you think is wrong with with 660 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: with those guys? Um, which again is unfortunate because these 661 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: relationships exist. I mean, if we look at marriage as 662 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: of of Asian newlywed's in the US partnered up outside 663 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: of their race. And this is coming from the Pew Center. 664 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: Thirty seven percent of Asian women married someone who is 665 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 1: an Asian and compared to six of Asian men. So 666 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:05,360 Speaker 1: these couplings are like totally common, you know, but so 667 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:10,719 Speaker 1: unfortunately weighed down with this baggage which so unfortunately just 668 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:16,719 Speaker 1: relates back to imperialism and the occident just being gross jerks. Yeah, 669 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,320 Speaker 1: it was sort of crazy to put it all in 670 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: the perspective that so many of the stereotypes that we 671 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:28,800 Speaker 1: culturally hold about Asian women in general come from just 672 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: some white guys who went into a previously pretty insular, 673 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: closed society and wrote books or plays or operas about it. 674 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,800 Speaker 1: And uh so that's that's what we think of Asian women. 675 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. And what do we do then, Caroline, 676 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: what can we the change starts with us to change start. Yeah, 677 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: just like that Michael Jackson song, Yes, podcasters in the mirror. 678 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 1: So one thing though, that we can do on an 679 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 1: individual level to make life a little bit easy year 680 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,800 Speaker 1: with all this stuff is stop the questions of but 681 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: where are you really from? Oh no, no, no, no, 682 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: I know that you were born in the United States, 683 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: but I mean, where are you really from? Yeah, because 684 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: then all that does is echo back to those articles 685 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: about Anime Wong who people were like, wait, wait, wait, 686 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 1: wait wait wait your Chinese, but you're also American, but 687 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 1: you're born here. Why don't you have an accent? Where 688 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: are you from? Where you really from? Because all of 689 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 1: this really just amounts to a giant pile of other ing. 690 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: And while you might think, oh, I don't perpetuate these 691 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: kinds of stereotypes, there are more of those microaggressions we 692 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 1: could say that we can all probably pay closer attention to. 693 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: And seriously, friends, if you have a single Asian friend 694 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,320 Speaker 1: that you want to hook up, don't don't suggest the 695 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,879 Speaker 1: guy who exclusively dates Asian girls, you know, like, don't 696 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: don't try to don't pull that whole thing. Yeah, yeah, 697 00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: because then that just makes you feel or makes your 698 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,800 Speaker 1: friend feel like she's just another another widget in a 699 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: collection of things. Like if you were to say, Caroline, 700 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,440 Speaker 1: I've got this this guy for you, Uh, he's really 701 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 1: into short girls. The only dates girls with bangs, you'll 702 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: have a lot to talk about. Yeah, hairstyling and tall shoes. Um, 703 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 1: but Yeah, thats just that just enforces that nobody could 704 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: be possibly interested in you for you and your personality, 705 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: but that's something about you physically or culturally is the biggest, 706 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: most important part of you. Well, I'm really curious to Caroline, 707 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 1: to hear from listeners who might experience these kinds of 708 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: stereotypes unfortunately in their relationships or in how they're treated 709 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: in their dating experiences. UM, whether they might be like 710 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,839 Speaker 1: a white guy who has been interested in or dated 711 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,759 Speaker 1: or married to an Asian woman or vice versa. UM, 712 00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,640 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you. What are your thoughts 713 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,360 Speaker 1: on this kind of stereotyping or is this just something 714 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:08,719 Speaker 1: that you can block out and just completely disregard as 715 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,720 Speaker 1: nonsensical because a lot of it really is mom Stuff 716 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 1: at how Stuffworks dot Com is our email address. You 717 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages 718 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages to 719 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:29,319 Speaker 1: share with you right now. So I have a letter 720 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,399 Speaker 1: here from Christina. She says, I just wanted to say 721 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: hi and tell you how much I enjoy your podcasts. 722 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: I've been listening for a few years. You make mowing 723 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: the grass and running fun. Oh wow. Mowing the grass 724 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,240 Speaker 1: one okay, she says, as a woman who's consistently worked 725 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,200 Speaker 1: in non traditional types of jobs, I love the girl 726 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,920 Speaker 1: power feeling I get from listening to your topics. I 727 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,479 Speaker 1: think there has been some progress and attitudes towards women 728 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 1: in male dominated professions, but there's still so far to go. 729 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,400 Speaker 1: I've been a military police officer in the Army, a 730 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,800 Speaker 1: civilian city police office are and now I work in 731 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,799 Speaker 1: the firearms industry. If I had a dollar for every 732 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,839 Speaker 1: time a customer calls in and assumes I'm the receptionist 733 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 1: or ask for someone who can answer a technical question, 734 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 1: as if there is no way I would know anything 735 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,920 Speaker 1: about those scary things that go bang, I could retire tomorrow. 736 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: My co workers are all male, and no one ever 737 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 1: calls and a stams they cannot assist them. I've even 738 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,239 Speaker 1: had several occasions where I've been told straight up that 739 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,680 Speaker 1: they want to speak to a man. Most of the time, 740 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm happy to just surprise them by showing that I do, 741 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,399 Speaker 1: in fact, I know my stuff. I hope you guys 742 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 1: have a great week and keep up the awesome podcasting. Well, thanks, Christine, 743 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,399 Speaker 1: I keep up the awesome listening and knowing things about 744 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,359 Speaker 1: those scary things that go bang. Well, I've gotta let 745 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,120 Speaker 1: her here from Abby and she writes, I'm an a 746 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: gender and work sociology class at the University of Georgia 747 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: right now, in which my professor has so graciously exposed 748 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 1: my classmates and I to your podcast. For the short 749 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,360 Speaker 1: summer course, we've been required to listen to seven of 750 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,440 Speaker 1: your podcasts, but seven has simply not been enough for 751 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 1: someone like me who was so interested in educating myself 752 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,400 Speaker 1: on gender type issues. Side note, we give that professor 753 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,759 Speaker 1: an A plus. That's so cool. We're part of a 754 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,839 Speaker 1: syllabu scareline. I love it. In recently listening to your 755 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,880 Speaker 1: podcast on Bio Ratire, I found myself getting excited and 756 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,200 Speaker 1: somewhat sad at how true everything you were saying was. 757 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,759 Speaker 1: As a by slash pan woman in a hetero relationship, 758 00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,960 Speaker 1: I find my queer status being questioned all the time. 759 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,520 Speaker 1: I recently faced some complications in my relationship where I 760 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,840 Speaker 1: admittedly cheated on my significant other with a woman. I 761 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: felt terrible, but when all of my friends found out 762 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,080 Speaker 1: afterward about how much of it told the instance had 763 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,480 Speaker 1: taken on my relationship, I ran into my favorite question, 764 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,399 Speaker 1: You only hooked up with a woman, so why does 765 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 1: it matter? People were insistent that I had I cheated 766 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 1: with a man, my significant other would have every right 767 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,000 Speaker 1: to be heartbroken, but since it was only with a woman, 768 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,920 Speaker 1: he was overreacting. Some people even dared suggest that my 769 00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 1: significant other should have only been upset because as he 770 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:04,719 Speaker 1: wasn't able to watch the interaction. You can imagine how 771 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,960 Speaker 1: invalidating this was to both my sexuality and to his emotions. 772 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: This also touches on your mention of female bisexuality being 773 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,760 Speaker 1: more accepted. I think it's important to note that true 774 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:22,319 Speaker 1: female bisexuality is not actually accepted at all. Instead, it's 775 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,560 Speaker 1: a hyper sexualized idea of girl on girl physical contact 776 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 1: we so often see in porn that's truly accepted. I 777 00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,320 Speaker 1: hope for one day where sexuality need not be so defined, 778 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,320 Speaker 1: and that a queer individual's sex life must be exposed 779 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:39,440 Speaker 1: so explicitly in order to be justified. Thanks for all 780 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 1: of your hard work, and thank you Abby. And that 781 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,719 Speaker 1: is horrific of your friends, and I hope that they 782 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,759 Speaker 1: came back and later apologized. So if you have any 783 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,920 Speaker 1: emails to send to us, Mom stuff at how stuff 784 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,239 Speaker 1: Works dot com is where you can send them and 785 00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,840 Speaker 1: drillnks to all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including 786 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,520 Speaker 1: this one with links so you can learn more of 787 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:09,560 Speaker 1: the history of these Asian stereotypes. Head on over to 788 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:17,040 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never told You dot com for moral this, 789 00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,719 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Does it have stuff works 790 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: dot com