1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, 2 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best 4 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard 5 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more 6 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit 7 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so 11 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: much for joining me for Session to fIF of the 12 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: Therapy for Like Girls Podcast. We'll get into the episode 13 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: right after a word from our sponsors. The true crime 14 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: genre is one of the fastest growing, but it is 15 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: incredibly telling whose stories are told. This has become yet 16 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: another space where the stories of Black women who are 17 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: victims are largely ignored, particularly those of doctor skin black women. 18 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: This eraser perpetuates the myth that black women are not 19 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: targets of serial violence, leaving cases unsolved and Black women 20 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 1: further marginalized. To share about the important work sheets done 21 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: to shed light on black women victims of serial violence. 22 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: Today we're joined by Dr Terry On Williamson. Dr Williamson 23 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: is an assistant professor of African American and African studies 24 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: with appointments in gender, women in Sexuality Studies, and American Studies. 25 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: Her research and teaching specialist stations include Black feminist theory, 26 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: twenty and twenty first century African American literature, Black cultural studies, 27 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: media studies, and racialized gender violence. She and I chatted 28 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: about how she began to research in this area, why 29 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: black women, particularly sex workers, are often targets for serial murder, 30 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: the inequalities with which black women victims are covered in 31 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: the media, and the impact that these crimes have on 32 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 1: our communities. If there's something that resonates with you while 33 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social 34 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: media using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation. 35 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Williamson, 36 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: thanks so much. I'm really happy to be here. Yeah, 37 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could start by telling us a 38 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: little bit about how you begin your area of research. 39 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: So can you share a little bit about how you 40 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: found yourself studying violence against black women in specifically serialized murders. 41 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: Certainly so. I am from a little city called Peoria, Illinois. 42 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: It's not a suburb of Chicago. It's about two two 43 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: and a half hours south of Chicago. And between two 44 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: thousand three and two thousand four, nine black women were 45 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 1: murdered in my hometown. So by the time I got 46 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: to grad school in two thousand five, the person who 47 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: was doing the killing had been called and had confessed 48 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: to murdering eight of those nine black women. He would 49 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: eventually be convicted in two thousand six for murdering eight 50 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: of those nine women. The one woman whose murder he 51 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: did not confess to. That is still considered an open case, 52 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: although many people think that he was also involved in 53 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: that murder. So, although I hadn't been deeply involved in 54 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: the case, as it was happening in my hometown, I 55 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: had become increasingly concerned about it. It was just sitting 56 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: with me, how does this thing happen in my hometown, 57 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: particularly once we found out who the killer was. I 58 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: grew up at a time, in a moment and in 59 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: a place where the sort of cultural common sense was 60 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: that serial murder was not something that happened to black folks. 61 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: It wasn't something that black communities had to be concerned about, 62 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: and certainly there was no such thing as a black 63 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: serial killer. There's a bunch of things black folks do, 64 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: but this is not um one of them. That was 65 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: the kind of understanding I had grown up with, so 66 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: at the time that these murders we're happening, part of 67 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: what I was dealing with was how do I make 68 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: sense of what has happened in my hometown? What are 69 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: sort of the conditions under which this happens. And that's 70 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: what led me to start researching violence against the women 71 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: and serial murder more generally. I certainly did not go 72 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: to grad school thinking that that's what I would do, 73 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: and my dissertation I do include a chapter about what 74 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: happened in Peoria. But when I started doing my research 75 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: into the Peoria case, I went into it with all 76 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: of this anger and frustration and concern. One of the 77 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: things I was concerned about was the fact that it 78 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: seemed like no one outside of Peoria I knew anything 79 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: about it. I thought, how does something like this happen 80 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: nine black women in a city that has fewer than 81 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: a hundred and sixteen thousand people in the span of 82 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: fifteen months. It's a huge number. How is it that 83 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: this is not a thing everyone is talking about? And 84 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 1: I thought it was a bit of an anomaly. It 85 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: seems strange to me at this point in my career, 86 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: in my life to have thought that, but I really 87 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: did only to find out as I started doing my 88 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: research that what had happened in Peoria was not an 89 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: anomally it was in fact something that had happened over 90 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: and over and over again throughout the country where black 91 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: women who are the soul or primary targets of serial killers. 92 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: In most cases we're talking about black women who have 93 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: been killed by the killer is a black man. The 94 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: Peoria case, it was a nomalous about the Peoria case 95 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: was that in that case, which is pretty rare, the 96 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: killer ended up being a white man. But that is 97 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: a typical. So otherwise, what I'm seeing are these cases 98 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: in which communities of black folks, in which black women 99 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: and girls in particular especially have been the targets of 100 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: serial murder. And so I have been doing research and 101 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: collecting stories is about serial murder for a number of years. 102 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: Now that I have my first book done, I published 103 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: an anthology a couple of years ago. Now I'm in 104 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,239 Speaker 1: a place where I'm really diving down into the work 105 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: and writing a book that specifically about black women and 106 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: serial murder, especially within the Midwest. M Yeah, I'm glad 107 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: you touched on that because my next question to you 108 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: was going to be in your research, has you found 109 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: that this was an anomaly? And it sounds like that 110 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: is not at all the case. No, it's not. I 111 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: mean I know at this point, I know of more 112 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: than eighty discrete cases of serial murder that specifically involved 113 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: as black women as victims throughout the country since about 114 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: the mid to late nineteen seventies. There are a few 115 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: cases that people in the audience may know a little 116 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: bit about, may have heard about Lonnie David Franklin, for instance, 117 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: who gets talked about as the Grim Sleeper. But otherwise 118 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: these cases by and large go by without people knowing 119 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: very much at all. And so that was the thing 120 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: that as I began my research though all those years ago, 121 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: that was really striking for me. And I'm wondering, if 122 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: your research isn't covered why that might be. I mean, 123 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: I think we both can suspect a lot of why 124 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: that is is that Black women, of course, as victims 125 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: are not given much humanity even as victims, right, And 126 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: so it is very likely that when we are the 127 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: victims of crime, we are overlooked. But I wonder if 128 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: there are some larger things that you've kind of uncovered 129 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: in your research. I definitely think that part of the 130 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: reason we don't know about these cases, we don't hear 131 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: about them, is absolutely because of who the victims are 132 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: and who the killers are. Um. So what I should 133 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: also say is often in these cases, not every time, 134 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: but most often we're talking about black women who are 135 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: involved in street level prostitution and sex work. We are 136 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: also often talking about black women who are involved in 137 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: other kinds of underground economies and or are drug addicted. 138 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: So take those things together, I think you know you 139 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: and I understand why it is that there's not much 140 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: attention that gets given to these cases, because the idea 141 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: is that, you know, part of what I've heard folks say, 142 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: right is like, well, this is sort of just what 143 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: comes with the territory you're gonna be involved in kind 144 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: of quote unquote lifestyle. Then this is just what happens 145 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: to you. The idea being that we shouldn't spend a 146 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: lot of our time or resources or energy or care 147 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: on women such as these, because essentially they sort of 148 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: asked for it. The other piece of this is that 149 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: the ones who do the killing are very often involved 150 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: in the same kinds of underground economies as the women are. 151 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: They are also very often drug addicted. We're talking about 152 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: people who come from low income black communities, so you 153 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: have this sort of double whammy of both victims and 154 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: the offenders who are the kinds of folks who don't 155 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: show up as people who get national news stories written 156 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: about them um often. So I think that that's a 157 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: big part of it, and I think also part of them. 158 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: The sort of narrative around this also has to do 159 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: with how black communities talk about these cases. So what 160 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: I have found, certainly it was the case in Peoria 161 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: and it tends to be the case most of the time, 162 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: is that local black communities where these murders happening are 163 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: very much involved in trying to find who the killer is. 164 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: They will rally around family members, they will try to 165 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: get the tension of law enforcement, they will press on 166 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: government officials to do something right. But there is also 167 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: this sort of element that sneaks into these cases of 168 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: you know, what you're talking about basically intra racial violence, right, 169 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: and that can be hard to approach. Right. So the 170 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: idea that what you're often talking about is black women 171 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: and girls who have been the victims of violence against 172 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: black men can also be hard to talk about. Often 173 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: can be hard to think through. And part of what 174 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: I'm trying to do in my work is not talk 175 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: about this in terms of something like quote unquote black 176 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: on black crime, which I don't even believe in, but 177 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: to talk about what's happening to black women as an 178 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: extension of the kinds of violence that we talk about 179 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: when we name what happened to, say George Floyd, all right, 180 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: which is to say that the violence that at black 181 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: men are subject to in the streets that we talk 182 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: about so often, that the various forms of violence that 183 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: they are subject to like comes home to ruth and 184 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: that the sort of conditions the possibility that lead to 185 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: the murders of not just black men, but we talk 186 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: about in particular black men, also result in harm two 187 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: people across the gender spectrum, especially black women and girls, 188 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: and that the way it shows up, it's very often 189 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: in the form of sexualized violence. I was wondering if 190 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: you could say more about, like why black women who 191 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: are engaging in sex work tend to be targets for 192 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: serial killers. Well, for one thing, they're more vulnerable because 193 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: they're just easier to gain access to um. So we're 194 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: talking about people who's just the nature of some of them. 195 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: They call work, sometimes the sex for drugs transactions, sometimes 196 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: the survival sex. They're more likely to come mental contact 197 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: with the people who do the killing. Right, So, the 198 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: privilege of certain kinds of inclome class privilege, educational privileges, 199 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 1: the various kinds of privileges that we have even as 200 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: people of color, sort of affords us more protection because 201 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: as a consequence of how they live their lives, the 202 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: ways they mobilize, or the forms of violence that they 203 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: have been subject to in the past, etcetera, they end 204 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: up in situations in which they are much more likely 205 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: to be vulnerable to these kinds of harm. And also, 206 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: as a consequence of that, they're much less likely to 207 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: be taken seriously as victims of any form of crime 208 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: or violence. So I'm still researching this, but part of 209 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 1: what is becoming clear is that women and girls who 210 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: are victims of this kind of harm often have been 211 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: victims of other kinds of sexualized harm prior to their death. Yeah, 212 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: I would love to get more of your thoughts about 213 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: this whole idea at the true crime genre. I mean, 214 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: if we're thinking about, like just in podcasting is one 215 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: of the most popular kinds of genres, but of course 216 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: it all tends to be very white focused, and so 217 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: I love to hear your thoughts about like why that 218 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,599 Speaker 1: is and how that has come to be. You're absolutely 219 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: right like the true crime podcast, I'll be straight up, 220 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: I listened to a lot of it myself because part 221 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,119 Speaker 1: of it is I'm trying to understand how people narrate stories, um, 222 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: and I'm trying to see what it is people are 223 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: interested in and engaged with. And I think true crime 224 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: as a genre, for better or worse, the places where 225 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: the work that I'm doing gets most often taken up 226 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: is within the realm of true crime, and so I've 227 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: been interested in thinking about that genre. So what do 228 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: we see in the true crime genre up to and 229 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: including podcast fascination with the killer, why the killer does 230 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: what they do, where they come from, their psychology, etcetera. Etcetera. 231 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: What we're seeing within the realm of podcast and more 232 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: contemporary forms of media. I would say you are seeing 233 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 1: more attention being paid to victims. But I think from 234 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: what I've been able to tell is that those victims, 235 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 1: like so much of media from the beginnings of time 236 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: where we're talking about stuff like this, is that it 237 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: is often a focus on white women, focus on younger 238 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: white women, focus on younger, more attractive, more middle class 239 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: white women, often but not always what you see to 240 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: be sort of the central narrative and true crime. So again, 241 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: what's different about what I'm trying to do Less attention 242 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: to the person who does the killing, more attention to victims, 243 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: and more attention to a diverse range of victims, and 244 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: trying to do with the work of destigmatizing how we 245 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: talk about and think about sex work and prostitution, because 246 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: so many of the victims we're talking about, that's what 247 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: they are engaged in or have some relationship to what 248 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: you also see happening in true crime as a fascination 249 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: and with the who done it. I think this thing 250 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: about like solving the crime or figuring out who the 251 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: person is who did it is something that attracts a 252 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: lot of people for reasons, you know, I understand. Um. However, 253 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: in my work, I'm less concerned about the who done 254 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: it aspect. I'm concerned to the extent that I don't 255 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: want any more people to be harmed, and so we 256 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: have to know who was doing the harm so that 257 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: they can stop doing the harm. But I'm less interested 258 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: in this sort of mystery element of it again, because 259 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: what I want to do is think about how this 260 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: hard that's being done, it's connected up to all these 261 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: other intersecting systems of oppression, which include incarceration, which include poverty, 262 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: which include, particularly in the context of my work I'm 263 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: doing on the Midwest, sort of industrial decline, economic decline, Right, 264 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: I want to think about these cases as being connected 265 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: up to that. All Right, So some people will have heard, 266 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: especially now, because there's a podcast about this. There's a 267 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: podcast about what gets talked about as the Atlanta child murders. 268 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: So that series of cases that happened in which you 269 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: had something like twenty plus people who were killed. Most 270 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: of them were young boys, but we're also talking about 271 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: young men. So between nineteen seventy nine and I think 272 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: ninety one, and so that case at the time got 273 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: a lot of attention. It's gotten more attention in recent 274 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: years because there have been a couple of documentaries and 275 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: television shows and also a podcast that was done not 276 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: too long ago. And so during that case, James Baldwin 277 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: has a book as a sort of a long form 278 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: estay called The Evidence of Things Not Seen, And one 279 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: of the things he says, he's reflecting on that series 280 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: of murders, and he says something like, it's sort of 281 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: an act of cowardice to blame all of these murders 282 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: on one person. So what those of us who know 283 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: something about this case knows that there is someone who 284 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: has been incarcerated for that series and murders, Wayne Williams. 285 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: He was convicted of killing two of the male victims, 286 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: young men victims in that case, but has been suspected 287 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: of doing all of the murders. And basically what James 288 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: Baldwin is saying is, whether or not one thinks that 289 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: Wayne Williams did it, it's an act of cowardice to 290 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: try to put this on any one particular person, even 291 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: if one person did it, because the fact of the 292 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: matter is, what is it that enables Wayne Williams to exist. 293 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: What is it in our own society and our own 294 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: culture that has allowed for the development of a person 295 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: who may or may not be Wayne Williams, whoever it is, 296 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: whatever person or people are praying on these victims. And 297 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: so part of what he does in evidence of Things 298 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: not Seen is he's putting that series of murders into 299 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: this larger social and economic context of the moment to say, 300 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of fingers that can be pointed, but 301 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: it's not enough to just say, you know, point the 302 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: finger at the monster and then say there there, We're done. 303 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: And so in my work, I think it's really important 304 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: to think about that as one of the sort of 305 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: grounding elements of the work that I do. I'm not 306 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: interested in just pointing the finger at a person so 307 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: much as I am, and it's larger context. That sounds 308 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: incredibly spot on. Thank you for that. More from my 309 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: conversation with Dr Williamson right after the break. So, as 310 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: you think about the ways that the stories are told, 311 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: what kinds of language are you kind of finding that's 312 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: used for victims And does some of this overlap with 313 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: the ways that, like black people aren't afforded innocent. Oh, 314 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: that's a good question. You know, this question of language 315 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,479 Speaker 1: has been one that I've had to deal with and 316 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: think through quite a bit, and I'm still wrestling with. 317 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: There's still language that I think will evolve. Even in 318 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: the work that I'm doing currently, I have to constantly 319 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: think about this. One reason is a lot of the 320 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: case that I'm looking at happened with them saying seventies 321 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: and eighties and that kind of thing. There's often a 322 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: lot of talk of prostitutes, sometimes without any names being 323 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: attached to who they were, and I thought a lot 324 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: about how to deal with that. So the work that 325 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: I do in my books canalyzed my name. And that 326 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: last chapter is called in the Life because I found 327 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: in the Life to be a term that was more 328 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: useful for talking about the people who I was talking about. 329 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: So in the Life is a term that gets used 330 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 1: in several different contexts, so it gets it gets used 331 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: by black queer folks, for instance, but it also gets 332 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: used in the context of these underground economies people who 333 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: are involved in sex work. Was sometimes talking about being 334 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: in the life, and I found that to be a 335 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: more useful way of talking about the people I talked 336 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: about so I often will talk about them as being 337 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: in the life or I talked about them as being 338 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: involved in prostitution, not sort of using them now now 339 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: as a descriptor. They are prostitutes, right and eve in 340 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: the language of sex work, for instance, can become become difficult. 341 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: So one of the families that I talked to in 342 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: the Peoria case, two of the daughters of Brenda Irving, 343 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: who was the last victim in that case, talk about 344 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: their frustration with the way their mother was talked about 345 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: as a prostitute or even a sex worker, as if 346 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 1: they're like, this was not her job, this was not 347 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: what she did as a job. There were various things 348 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: that she did for work, including at one point in 349 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: time she owned a restaurant. So there are many things 350 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: she did for work. But they were like, this is 351 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: something she did off to the side. She was still 352 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: a mother to us, she was still a grandmother to 353 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: our children. She was still very actively involved in our lives, 354 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: all right, And so the way that their mother got 355 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: reduced to a prostitute was really difficult continued even, you know, 356 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: nine years after their murders. Was just when I initially 357 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: sat down and talk with them was still something that 358 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: I think was really painful, and I think in a 359 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: lot of cases you see that that pushing back against that. 360 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 1: The other thing that happened in the Peoria case, and 361 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: I think I know has happened in other cases, is 362 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: the use of mud shots as the only sort of 363 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: visual that you have of who the victims work. So 364 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: in the Peoria case, the women I talked to said, listen, 365 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: we tried to give the newspapers other kinds of images 366 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: that they can use, but they continue to produce and 367 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: reproduce these mug shots. So there's a way that the 368 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: victims become as consequently become criminal, criminalized. Right, referring to 369 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: them only as prostitutes. Even the language of sex worker 370 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: can do it, right, even though that's a language that 371 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: is we find more acceptable. And I sort of talk 372 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: about prostitution, I just want to say this as distinct. 373 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: Prostitution is a form of sex work. Sex work is 374 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: the sort of umbrella turn and I do talk about 375 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: street level prostitution because I want to be clear what 376 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: we're talking about. We're not talking about someone who is 377 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: an escort or a call girl or who's a dancer. 378 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: And I want to be clear about that, because there 379 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: are varying forms of vulnerabilities to harm based upon where 380 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: one works. So that's why I talk about street level prostitution. 381 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: I want to be clear about what we're talking about 382 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: because I think there are definitely people within sex work 383 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: who will talk about the agency they have as sex workers. 384 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: But when we're talking about street level prostitution, we're often 385 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: talking about sex for drugs, were often talking about survival sex. 386 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: So we're talking about something distinctive. And so the language 387 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: of prostitution without some other context, the use of the 388 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: mud shots, all of those things do the work even 389 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: without saying anything else, of criminalizing victims, and so what happens, well, 390 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter as much what happened to them, right. 391 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: The other thing I wanted to mention about my work 392 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: and where it emerges from that is related to this 393 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: question you've asked about language. So Dr Branford maybe will 394 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: remember in two thousand and seven there was this whole 395 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: dust up around this radio host don Imus. So this 396 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: is after the offender in the Peoria case has been convicted. 397 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: I am at the early stages of my graduate work 398 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: and just starting to like formulate a project involving what 399 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: happened in my hometown. Don Imus, the quote unquote shot job, 400 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: comes onto the radio after the Rutgers Tennessee women's basketball 401 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: game and says, talking about the Rutgers team, he says, 402 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: those girls are some quote nappy headed holes, and that 403 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: causes an understandable uproar. He temporarily loses his job, has 404 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: to apologize because you know, he uses this term to 405 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: refer to these black women on the air. Okay, what 406 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: happens as part of that fallout is you hear all 407 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: of this, the way that people run to the defense 408 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: of the Rutgers women, and I want to be really, 409 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: really really clear, there is no problem with defending the 410 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: Rutgers women. They deserve to be defended, and what don 411 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: Imus said about them was not okay and needed to 412 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: have been taken down. I remember I was working on 413 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: this project and what I kept sitting with was the 414 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: ways that people kept saying, well, you know, it's a 415 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: disgrace for him to talk about this women in this 416 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: way because they're not nappy headed holes. That's not what 417 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: they are. They are college educated, they are successful, they 418 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: are athletes, they get the grades, all of these things 419 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: that they have done, which none of which I think 420 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: was wrong or unfair to say, but in the they're 421 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: not that. So, like, I'm sitting there at this moment 422 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: where you have all of the people on sort of 423 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: cable news and all the different editorials who are speaking 424 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: out against don Imus and using this language of in 425 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: order to sort of defend the women who are talking 426 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: about all the ways in which they are not nappy 427 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: headed holes. At the moment that I'm sitting with the 428 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: deaths of all of these black women, none of whom 429 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: are nappy headed homes. Let's be very clear about that. 430 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: But if there is any sort of um population of 431 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: women who is gets more closely related to that jacked 432 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: up term, it is women who have been involved in 433 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: sex work and who have and the pictures that get 434 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: used to identify them in the newspaper and the media 435 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: is mud shots. So I'm sitting with all of this 436 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: death and all of this violence against all of these 437 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: black women, including women who come from my own community, 438 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: including a woman who I knew personally, who I understand 439 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: in terms that have nothing to do with that thing 440 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: that don Eima said. Yet this sort of pushed back 441 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: against there not that seems to do this other kind 442 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: of work. It's not intentional, of course, but it's what 443 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 1: made me start thinking about even the discourse that we use. Right, 444 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: even in cases you think about, you know, the young 445 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,479 Speaker 1: person gets shot and killed in the neighborhood, Well, they 446 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: were an honorable student, and they were. But what if 447 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: they were an honorable students, right, does that mean the 448 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: you care less about them? Does that mean that we 449 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: love them less? And so as a consequence of that 450 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: moment and thinking about how we talk about the people 451 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: we talk about is also trying to like think about 452 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,479 Speaker 1: how to destigmatize. I don't try to spend a lot 453 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: of time saying, well, these women weren't actually prostitutes, they 454 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: were X, Y and Z. I try to enlargen the picture, right, 455 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,479 Speaker 1: I try to give a fuller context for their lives, 456 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,239 Speaker 1: because no, none of them were just one thing. But 457 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: I also want to destigmatize how we talk about prostitution, sex, word, 458 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: drug use, and all of those kinds of things, so 459 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: that we understand that they are also part of the 460 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: beloved community, or less they should be. And we're really 461 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: serious about talking about freedom and liberation and care for 462 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: black folks, they must also be part of the beloved community. 463 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: And so it's not enough to just say, well, you know, 464 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: these women are not that, and so we care about 465 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: these women, but the women who are maybe we don't 466 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: pay as much as much attention to them. So your 467 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: question of language, I think it's deeply, deeply important to 468 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: how we think about these cases. It's deeply important to 469 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: the work that I'm doing, and I think even in 470 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: the ways in which we use language, it's critically important 471 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: for us, even on individual basis, to be thinking about 472 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: how we use language and their relationship to the people 473 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: who ought to be part of our communities. Yes, thank 474 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: you so much for that. And I'm wondering if you 475 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: have seen a difference in how white victims are covered. 476 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: You know, so even white women maybe who are engaging 477 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: in sex work and may have concerns with drug abuse 478 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: or drug use, is there the same issue of you know, 479 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: using their mug shots and talking about them, you know, 480 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: specifically as okay prostitution or sex work, or is it 481 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: different even then? You know. One of the reasons I'm 482 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: hesitating is because I just in terms of like the 483 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: research I've done, I have really focused on black women, right, 484 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: so there's not a whole lot I can say about 485 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 1: folks who are not black women, because I haven't attended 486 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: to that as my But what I will say, just 487 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: for now thinking about this and what I've seen, is 488 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: that any people who are involved in prostitution, sex work, etcetera, 489 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: there's a particular kind of stigma that attaches to them 490 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: and to their cases. But what happens when you're talking 491 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: about white women is that there's a fuller I mean, 492 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: this is the case in so many things, right, there's 493 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: a fuller there's a fuller picture of who white women are. 494 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: So yes, there are white women who are also involved 495 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: in sex work and prostitution who are murdered a matter 496 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: of fact, serial murder in general, that is typically who 497 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about, whether we're talking about black women or 498 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: non black women. Were often talking about people who are 499 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: involved who have been trafficked and are involved in sex work. 500 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: So and again it's the reasons that I talked about before. 501 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: They're just much more vulnerable because of where they're located, 502 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: the things that they get involved in, etcetera. But when 503 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about white women, like, yes, there are those 504 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: cases that get some coverage, and even then I don't 505 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: think it an Ugh coverage. I don't think we attend 506 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: carefully enough to the lives of women who are most 507 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: vulnerable to serial murder in general, across gender, across race. 508 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: But you also have John and a Ramsey, right like, 509 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: you also have these other cases, right Like, you have 510 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: a richer sort of picture of who white women are 511 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: in general, but who white women are as victims as well. 512 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: So I think it hits differently and as a consequence, 513 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: like the sort of the attention from what I've been 514 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: able to tell, the attention that's a paid to serial killers. 515 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: A lot of the cases I've seen have involved, say, 516 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,479 Speaker 1: you know, white women who are college students, you know 517 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So so there's a sort of 518 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: wider sense of who the victims are. But to be clear, 519 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: I think all of these cases need to be attended 520 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: to more carefully. And my focus on black women and 521 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: girls as victims is not meant to say that these 522 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,959 Speaker 1: are the only victims, only to say that there has 523 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: been so little attend and play to these victims that 524 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: I think it's really important for that to be the 525 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: focus of what I do. More from my conversation with 526 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: Dr Williamson right after the break, Dr Williamson. You have 527 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: talked about community quite a bit throughout this interview, and 528 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: I just wanted to kind of go back to that 529 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: and talk about one, like the personal impact this has 530 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: had on you as a researcher, given that you know 531 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: you were tied and when you knew one of the victims. 532 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: But also you talked about like how this has a 533 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: ripple effect in the community because a lot of times 534 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: the community is really involved in like figuring out who 535 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: did it. In the families that are left to grieve, 536 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: you know, like are they even afforded any space to 537 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: grieve in all of this. Part of the reason I'm 538 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: so invested in this project is because of how essential, 539 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: how essential community is. And you know, part of what 540 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: these cases have shown me is that it really calls 541 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: out the lie that black folks don't care about other 542 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: forms of harm other than police violence. Right Like, anytime 543 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: there's another police killing, it's like, we're mad about this, 544 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: but what about you know, what's happening in black communities. 545 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is Black communities have 546 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: always cared about to multiple things. You have always been 547 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: concerned about forms of violence that happened within their communities 548 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: and that is absolutely the case here as well, So 549 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: to speak to the question about the personal impact, this 550 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: is not what I thought years later I would be doing. 551 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: I went to grad school at a moment when like 552 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: reality TV was really on the rise. I wanted to 553 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,719 Speaker 1: write about like black reality television, and actually I do 554 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: write about reality television a little bit, but this became 555 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: the work for me. This became the really some part 556 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: of the work that I do, because attending to the 557 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: case of those nine black women who were killed in 558 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: my hometown meant attending to my hometown. So when I 559 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: was in grad school, one of my professors was someone 560 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: some folks will know, this really dynamic, amazing scholar named 561 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: Robin Kelly was my professor who was a historian, and 562 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: one of the things he said to me I'll never 563 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: ever forget him saying as I started working on this project, 564 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: was you know, what are the things that you're never 565 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: supposed to know about Peoria? What are the things that 566 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: as a consequence of your being there, things that are 567 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: sort of hidden from you from you? And so what 568 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: it meant for me to talk about these women meant 569 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: talking about the place I come from, a place that 570 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: I honestly I hadn't really seriously thought about. You know, 571 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: I'm from one of these cities. It's like, there's not 572 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: a whole lot going on there. It's been named multiple 573 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: times as like one of the worst cities for Black American. 574 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: There are all kinds of disparities of different forms, and 575 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,479 Speaker 1: so when I went away to college, it was like, 576 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: let me go and be gone. And it took this 577 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: happening for me to really start to understand my city, 578 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: more understand where I come from, and then reconnect to 579 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: the really deep passionate love I have for that place 580 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: and those people, because it forced me to go back 581 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: and attend to all of the conditions of life that 582 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: were happening there. Why is it that most of these 583 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: women who are victims come from the same side of town, 584 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: the you know, the black side of town and southside 585 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: where I come from. Why have all of us been 586 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: touched in some way by poverty? Why have all of 587 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: us been touched in some way by quote unquote failing schools. 588 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: Why have all of us been touched in some way 589 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: by over policing and under policing. You know, what are 590 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: the sort of commonalities there? What makes the differences in 591 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: our lives, how are our lives shaped? And so it 592 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: also meant going back and talking to people from my 593 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: hometown and getting a different feel for what it means 594 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: to be there. There's different ways on what's doing. Research 595 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: on your own community can be tricky, but it has 596 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: also given me such a deep and abiding sense of 597 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: care because I've been able to see the kinds of 598 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: connections are the ways that communities come together in the 599 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: aftermath of cases like this. But but but also all 600 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: of the sort of complex things that happened, because it's 601 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: all not you know, we all come together where a 602 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: unified front. No, no, there's all kinds of fissures that 603 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: also happened. There are people who are frustrated because you 604 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: know X person stood in as the expert, but they 605 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: really weren't around when things were happening, or certain families 606 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: got to stand in and have a voice and other 607 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: families did not. There are still lots of ways in 608 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: which the communities are complex and for all as well. 609 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 1: But that is part of telling a more complete story 610 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 1: of a place, which is part of what I'm trying 611 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: to do through this work. And so the other part 612 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: to the other piece of your question about community that 613 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: I also want to mention is that there are various 614 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: groups that have come together, some of them very unofficial. 615 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 1: So one or two groups came together in the aftermath 616 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: that would happen in my hometown. I'm not sure if 617 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: any of them ever had official titles, but in some 618 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: places they did have titles. So in the case of 619 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: Lonnie David Franklin, who the person who gets named the 620 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: Graham Sleeper, who might be the case that more people 621 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: are familiar with. There was a group called Black Coalist 622 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: and Finding Back Serial Murders, which are started by the 623 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: activists and radio host Marcot Prescott and Los Angeles and 624 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: emerged as those murders were happening within the eighties, but 625 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: continues to exist today. And when Lonnie Franklin came to 626 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: police attention and ended up being convicted in they did 627 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: a lot of advocacy um around that case, and I 628 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,280 Speaker 1: was able to go out during one of the actions 629 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: that they had and be part of just trying to 630 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: raise attention. And even all these years later, as you're 631 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: talking about people who were largely killed, most of them 632 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 1: were killed in the nineteen eighties, there's still so much 633 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: healing that needs to occur, and so the kinds of 634 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: actions that they've been involved in our work that they've 635 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: been involved in in terms of thinking about memorialization and 636 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: healing that that organization has done. And there are other 637 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: kinds of organizations like that. And one of the organizations 638 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: that I really want to talk about is the Comedy 639 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: he River Collective is an organization that was founded in 640 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,399 Speaker 1: Boston and they wrote this statement which has been at 641 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: this point is known as basically the Black Feminist Manifesto. 642 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: UM that's largely what they're known for is writing that 643 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: Black Feminist statement. But there was a series of murders 644 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: at the beginning of nineteen seventy nine. Twelve black women 645 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: and one white women were murdered, mainly in the Roxbury 646 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: and Dorchester areas of Boston in the first five months 647 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy nine, and Comedy River Collective was one 648 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,280 Speaker 1: of a number of organizations that did an extensive amount 649 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: of advocacy around those murders. And one of the really 650 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: critical things for me that came out of that work 651 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: is that they refused to make those murders just be 652 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: a consequence of say racial harm. So one of the 653 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: ways that it was being talked about initially was you 654 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: had community leaders who were talking about this sort of 655 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: as as a racial crime, and now it seems bananas 656 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 1: that we would think about it in that kind of way. 657 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: But Community River Collective was like, oh, no, no, no, 658 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: this is not just about race. We must understand that 659 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 1: this is also about gender and that these intersecting things 660 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: and we have to talk about them as related. And 661 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,720 Speaker 1: one of the things that they say they put together 662 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: this pamphlet in order to get out information about what 663 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: was happening in the cases, but also information about how 664 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,879 Speaker 1: women could be safer, and then information about how they 665 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: talked about that series and murders being a thread in 666 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 1: the fabric of violence against women, which is to say, 667 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: this is not a one off case, which is what 668 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: some of law enforcement was saying. They were like, listen, 669 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 1: these women are being killed by people they know this 670 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: is what happens in black communities. Would you expect us 671 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: to do? And they were like, no, what's happening to 672 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 1: these women in Boston is a threat in the fabric 673 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: of violence against women, which is to say, so. Then 674 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: in that pamphlet they give all of these statistics about 675 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: domestic violence rates, for instance, and other forms of harm, 676 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: to say, if we're gonna talk about harm against women, 677 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: we have to think about how this is also an 678 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: extension of those kinds of harm. That is to say, one, 679 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,439 Speaker 1: this is an intersectional issue. This is not just race, 680 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,879 Speaker 1: but it's race and its gender, and its class and 681 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: and and and we have to think about these things 682 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: that's related, but also to think about this as connected 683 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: to other forms of harm, other forms of violence, and 684 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: how the work that we're going to do as a 685 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: community and as an organization is to say that we 686 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: are committed to uplifting our entire community, and thinking about 687 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: this slate of murders that has happened here means that 688 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: we have to think about all of these things together. 689 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: And that's critically important, and that's become really important to 690 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: my work. And so I wanted to shout out Compay 691 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: River Collective because the work that they did in nineteen 692 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: seventy nine continues to be instrumental on how I think 693 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: about my own work in the current moment. Thank you 694 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: for that. I wonder if there are any other resources 695 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: that you'd like to share that might be helpful for 696 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: people wanting to kind of learn more about this kind 697 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: of work or that have been helpful for you. So 698 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: I mentioned James Baldwins The Evidence of Things Not Seeing. 699 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: It's about the Atlanta case, but it also I think 700 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: the way that he narrates what happened in Atlanta it's 701 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,240 Speaker 1: critically important for how we might think about these cases 702 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: in a deeper context. Another really important text to come 703 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: out of what happened in Atlanta is Tony Kate Bambara's 704 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: novel Those Bones Are Not My Child, Tony k. Bambar's 705 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: Black woman writer. This is like her magnum opens and 706 00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: it's a novel, but it's a novel that's based in 707 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: reality to and I think is another way of getting 708 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: a picture. I don't think there's any other text I've 709 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: read that better gets at the kinds of trauma, the 710 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: kind of hurt, the kind of fear and terror that 711 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: occurs in a community when something like this is happening. 712 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: All right, So I think of that as a resource 713 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: and I go to something like a novel in literature 714 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: because one of the questions I often get asked, how 715 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: I do this work? How I sustained myself through this work? 716 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: And I have found literature touches me and speaks to 717 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 1: me in a particular kind of way. And there's also 718 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 1: an essay that Audrey Lord wrote. Audrey Lord was involved 719 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: in some of the sort of commemorative events in Boston 720 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: in that case that I was talking about earlier that 721 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: the Comedy River Collective was involved in, and she wrote 722 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: this long form poem, caught Me a corral for Black 723 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: women voices. I've recently written about my own sort of 724 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: coming to that poem. It's a brutal poem, like it's 725 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: really getting at the sort of visceral, a painful way 726 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: effect of these cases on black women and black communities. 727 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it was a place where 728 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: I saw somebody putting into language what it feels like 729 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: to do this work, what it feels like to hear 730 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 1: these stories of the really brutal ways that black women 731 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: and girls are violated and come to harm. That is 732 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: something that I have found has been a sort of 733 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: useful and useful text for me to engage with. There's 734 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: a podcast called Through the Cracks. I'm really sorry I 735 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: can't remember right at this moment the name of the 736 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: It's a black woman who was the host of that podcast. 737 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: Very often podcasts that engage with these kinds of cases 738 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 1: aren't by black people, and so I think this was 739 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: an important for that reason. And so it tells the 740 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 1: story of this one young girl who went missing in 741 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: I believe the DC area. And it is not a 742 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: resource that's exactly about what I do. Part of the 743 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: issues is there's not a lot of resources that's about 744 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: what I do. But it's also a way of understanding 745 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: how people can narrate these kinds of stories. And I 746 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: think one of the things that podcast does well it 747 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: gets at telling a sort of larger narrative of what 748 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,439 Speaker 1: happens how a young black girl sensibly comes to harm 749 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 1: in the way that she does. So those are some 750 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 1: of the things that I attend to on my work. 751 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: Thank you. Will definitely make sure to share those with 752 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: the audience. So where can we stay connected to you? 753 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 1: What is your website as well as any social media 754 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: handles you'd like to share. I am not a great 755 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: social media person. I'm working on it. Hopefully i'll do 756 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: better in the futures. However, the website Black mid West 757 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,479 Speaker 1: Initiative is where you can find some of the things 758 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: that I do. I'm really interested in the collective work 759 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,439 Speaker 1: and so the Black mid West Initiative. You can find 760 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: them at the Black mid West dot com. It's me 761 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 1: and a bunch of other people who are invested in 762 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,759 Speaker 1: telling these underreported, understudy car the stories and narratives, so 763 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,360 Speaker 1: you can also see some work there. I would also 764 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: like to say if there are people listening to this 765 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: who have been touched by these kinds of cases, who 766 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,399 Speaker 1: have a story to tell about being a family member 767 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: or a community member who has been involved in a 768 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 1: serial murder case or know something about these serial murder cases. 769 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 1: I am definitely looking for people to talk to. I 770 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: want to hear your story, so I do hope people 771 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: will reach out. I can leave my work email address 772 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: so people can reach me that way. But I definitely 773 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: know that there are many many more stories out there 774 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,439 Speaker 1: to be told, and I would love to be able 775 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,240 Speaker 1: to be part of telling those stories. And if anybody 776 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,439 Speaker 1: wants to email us at podcasts at Therapy for Black 777 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,719 Speaker 1: Girls dot com if you want to be connected to 778 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: Dr Williams and we can definitely what would those to you? 779 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 1: Please do perfect well. Thank you so much for spending 780 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 1: some time with us today, Dr Williamson. I really appreciate it. 781 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: I really appreciate being here, and I really appreciate you 782 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: for shining a light on these cases. It's so important. Absolutely, 783 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,919 Speaker 1: thank you. I'm so glad that Dr Williamson was able 784 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,879 Speaker 1: to share her expertise with us today. To learn more 785 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,359 Speaker 1: about her and her work, or to check out the 786 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: resources that she shared, be sure to visit the show 787 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session 788 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: to and don't forget to text two of your girls 789 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: and tell them to check out the episode as well. 790 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be 791 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for 792 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want 793 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic or just be in 794 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: community with other sisters, come on over and join us 795 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the 796 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,799 Speaker 1: Internet design just for black women. You can join us 797 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 1: at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank 798 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: you all so much for joining me again this week. 799 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: I look forward to continue in this conversation with you 800 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,879 Speaker 1: all real soon. Take good care,